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- [00:00]
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Foreign.
- [00:07]
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Welcome back to the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Nutts, joined as ever by our friendly neighborhood jeweler, Alain Ben Joseph. And today a very special guest calling in from across the Atlantic, Fred Savage, whose name you might be familiar with if you are a fan of, well, one of his many projects on TV or film. Fred is a very well known actor who made his name in the very beloved series the Wonder Years and has gone on to feature as an actor, producer, director, writer, basically everything you can do in many, many more shows since quite recently BoJack Horseman, which I didn't realize and I love that show. So thanks for taking the time to join us Fred, and to talk to us about your love of watchers and also your new project, tgs, which is timepiece grading specialists. We'll dive into exactly what that is later in show. But first, if you don't mind, please introduce yourself and give us a bit of a rundown as to how you came to the watch industry.
- [01:06]
C
Yeah, great, thank you, thank you for that, that very kind introduction and much thanks to you and Alon for, for the invitation. I, I'm a fan of the POD and I love what you guys are doing. So it's, it's, it's an honor to be here. So, yeah, I, you know, you know, I had been collecting, I started collecting, you know, I'd always worn watches, you know, I think my whole, my whole life. You know, I think as you pointed out, like I started working at a, at an early age and I think wearing a, I was always like the youngest, you know, person in the room, you know, always surrounded by adults. And I think that wearing a watch kind of made me feel maybe a little more grown up or like I belonged a little bit more. So I always wore a watch as a kid and it wasn't really until college where I stumbled into a store in Los Angeles, a really terrific vintage watch store, pre owned watch store, a more vintage called Wanna buy a Watch that Ken Jacobs, just a kind of a renowned beloved watch dealer. He's had the shop for, I don't know, over 30 years in LA and, and I met Ken and I didn't know much about watches at all. I didn't even really know that vintage watches were a thing. But I went in and I fell in love with like these early American, like art deco, like 20s, 30s watches like Elgin, Illinois, Gruen, Waltham Hamilton, obviously, of course. And you know, for a few hundred dollars you could buy these kind of relics, you know, and they weren't like pristine. They were far from like museum quality watches. You know, they were stained dials and you know, radium hands and didn't run great, but they were to me beautiful. And you know, they had these great filigreed cases and I, I had no idea that you know, these things, you know, that were, you know, 60 years old at the time. Seventy years old could be so be still be working. I didn't even know vintage watches were a thing. And that was kind of my gateway and so I started collecting those and you know, I fell in love with vintage and that's kind of where I, my collection really focuses on and where my passions really lie are kind of pre owned. You know, all my watches, I have a few watches I got from ads or you know, kind of the primary market. Uh, but most of them are, are from, you know, websites, online, other collectors, dealers, auction houses. I just, I, I fell in love with pre owned and so kind of that was my, that was my gateway. So it started with like, you know, $200 and $300 watches and then you know, slowly, you know, grew and you know, $800 watch and a $1,200 watch. And then, um, and then, you know, like all of us, we just. That, that slope is very slippery and, and so I caught the bug and just, and just, and love it. And you know, just to just to conclude this thought, the thing that truly kept me in it, you know, the thing that I love about it was watches. But the thing that has really kept me in it, I've just met the most incredible people and the watch world has really enriched my life in a huge magnitude and in so many ways. You know, it's taken me all around the world and it's introduced me to the most wonderful people, you know, alon among them. And now you Rob. But you know, it's just, it's been a great thing where the watches are wonderful, but the thing that's really kept me in it and really kept me, you know, so enthusiastic about it and wanting to keep up to date and read about everything and know what's going on at the auctions and the new releases is just because of this kind of wonderful social aspect of it. And I always want to have something to talk about and want to have something to, you know, we're in all the WhatsApp chats and all your friends are talking and on Instagram and I, I want to just stay current because it's just constantly feeding just my life introducing me to like these incredible people, you Know, we were just talking a minute ago about watches and wonders and, you know, Alon was just saying that we had so many friends who were there. I didn't even see our friends. I, I was, I just was meeting new people and going to these dinners and meeting just the most fascinating, interesting people. I mean, the watch world is full of just, you know, it's an incredible group of misfits and thieves and also real gentlemen and scholars and everything in between. And it's just the most colorful world and I couldn't love it more.
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B
I think it's fair to say that when it comes to being a people person, you are a natural. And being in such an adult environment from such a young age has probably sharpened those, those human interaction skills to a point of almost lethal. Lethal. So I remember reading to say, I mean, you started acting when you were around 10, 9, 10, like in 86.
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C
I did my very first commercial when I was 6 years old.
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B
No way.
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C
I was in Chicago. Yeah, I was in Chicago. And it was a commercial for Pac man vitamins, which were, you know, these little vitamins in the shape of ghosts and pellets and Pac Men. And so that was my very first job. Yeah, I was six. I was six years old. It's crazy.
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B
So I guess, like, you had a couple of roles on TV and a couple of film features before the Princess Diaries, is that correct? The Princess Bride. Sorry, The Princess Bride.
- [07:14]
C
Princess Bride. Yes, yes, exactly. Yes.
- [07:18]
B
And the Princess Bride, as far as I understand, it was really what put you on the radar of the casting agents of the wonder Years who wanted somebody who was natural, like just a fluid character on screen that could really communicate Kevin's experience of adolescence as he met it in a turbulent time in US History.
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C
Yeah. From that I think you've done your research, Rob.
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B
Yes, yes, I did my best. Right. I did my best because we have luminaries from the watchmaking industry on the show regularly. We know everything about, well, not everything, but most things about watchmaking and watchmaking history. And we can track the, you know, the changes in who's CEO here, who's COO there very organically, because we're there while it happens. But I wanted to go back and actually like, read a little bit about your early career because we don't have many world famous actors on the show. In fact, I think you might be the first. So you, you, you start doing the Wonder Years when you were about 11, 12, I guess, filming around that age. And from then you became a household name. You won awards, you Know, it was one of the most adored sitcoms, sitcoms, one of the most adored shows of its era. And you've transitioned very fluidly from being a child star into being an adult star and branched out into different areas of show business, which is unfortunately not as common a pathway as we'd like it to be. What was it like for you in those early days, I mean, six years old to do your first commercial and then already on TV and in films at 10, 11. What did it know? Did you have a desire at that age to be an actor, or were you just sort of going with the flow? Did you. Did you consciously decide, this is what I'm going to do with the rest of my life?
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C
I think it was more go with the flow, you know, I think that, you know, it was a very kind of strange way to grow up, and it certainly was very early to start. Start a career, but. But when you're in it, you know, it just. It just kind of is. Just feels very natural. And honestly, it wasn't really until I had kids and so I could see, you know, them, oh, they're six. I started working at six and at 12, and this is what I was doing at 12. And it was. Really blew my mind like how really young that is when you're in. It just feels very kind of normal and natural. But, yeah, you know, I feel like. I think that's what allowed me to kind of move through it and. And, you know, endure kind of, you know, the highs and lows and, you know, good times and slow times, was that it wasn't like a dream to be famous or to be on television or do movies. It really was just, you know, this commercial. When I was six years old, they were having auditions at like, the local community center in the town I grew up in outside of Chicago. And we went, you know, instead of going to the park that day, we went to go to these auditions. And so it just kind of stayed like that of just like this kind of fun thing to do. And, you know, I was able to, you know, turned out I had some success and I think I had an aptitude for it. I think I got lucky also, especially very early on, you know, when I was a kid. But. But yeah, they all kind of combined and this career kind of formed and. And then as I got older and I went to college, I wanted to do other things in the business. And so, yes, I started directing and producing and writing and doing a little bit of. A little bit of everything. But no, it really just was this Snowball that started from this, you know, very kind of humble beginnings and, but, but it began not out of like this like hunger or deep desire. It was just something fun to do that day. And honestly, like that idea of the fun of it and the excitement of it and the playfulness of it kind of, I think is what it was kind of born from that and it kind of carried me through.
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B
And now you've got a new hobby, something that's also fun and playful and exciting and that's the watch industry.
- [11:38]
C
It's true. And I, you know, I felt, I feel very fortunate, you know, having had this career in entertainment where I was able to make a, you know, a living on something I really enjoyed. And so for the watch world, if I could do that again, you know, I appreciated how lucky I was at the time and throughout my life of, you know, having a career in something I really enjoyed and really kind of fed me and, and, and made me happy and was satisfying. And if I could do that twice and, and do that again with, with watches, I really would be it, it'd be incredibly fortunate.
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A
I'm using this as a segue, Rob. So like you've said, if you are an 80s kid, how can you not know? Wonder years? I'm infamously known in retail. In Amsterdam, when I have celebs coming in, I have no idea who they are because I don't. Or sports that have the biggest, like soccer players and everything come in, I have no idea who they are. And they love the fact that I treat them normally. I walk into just Shapiro Geneva watch days and I'm like, whoa, Fred. So our mutual friend just Shapiro introduced us. We hung out.
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C
I remember meeting you at that party. That was really fun. I remember that.
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A
So I was starstruck. I'm gonna admit it. I'm a big fan. As a kid, I watched all the episodes and the only favorite episode besides the one he is was when you were on Seinfeld, also for one episode. So few series I've seen back to back. Long story short, we're not going to nag you too much about that past. A lot of people ask me where can they stream the one they use? Because I want to show my kids. So I guess in the US it's Hulu Disney stuff. I tried to Google it. What about Europe?
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C
You know, I, I don't know. I don't know. I, I, I, I wish I could tell you it's not. Yeah, I think Hulu in the States, but I'm not sure. I don't know. I don't know, Elan. All right, I'll have to send you some DVDs. I'll send you some DVDs.
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A
Thank you.
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C
You can show your kids.
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A
Because the thing is, we missed each other. When you were in Europe, just before Geneva. You were in London, I was in Amsterdam. I went back to London.
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C
I did.
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A
You were in Amsterdam, but you hung out with my dad, actually, so I'm very jealous. And he had the honor to meet your family. That was awesome. A question I wanted to ask you. Do you get annoyed talking so much about your old career with all our watch nerds?
- [14:09]
C
No, not at all. I really don't. I feel like, you know, I feel very grateful for having had those opportunities, you know, as. As a young person. And I feel like all of us in whatever we do, you know, whether you're in entertainment or watches or, you know, you're. You're building roads. Like, you. You want your work to mean something to people or to have some sort of lasting impression. And so the fact that I was able to do that at. At such a young age and, you know, working kind of, you know, into. Into adulthood, but it. I. I feel very fortunate that. That things that I did resonate with people, you know, still to this day, and even adults, you know, get. Get excited. So. No, it doesn't. It doesn't bother me at all. You know, I had great experiences. I look back on it very fondly, and the fact that other people do, too, it really. It really. It very. It's really warms my heart. Like, it makes me feel great. So, no, it doesn't bother me at all. And, you know, the other thing is, you know, it's a really great, you know, entree into, you know, deeper relationships. And so it's. It's great. It's like, you know, like, seeing you at that. At that party a lot, like, you know, I didn't know you, but, you know, we met and, you know, I'm sure you would have been just as kind, you know, if you didn't know me from television, but it was a point of connection. It allowed us to get talking, and now here we are. So, no, it's. It doesn't bother me at all. Like, I. I have great experiences. I have great memories of that time, and it makes me feel so good that other people do, too.
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B
I think it's awesome that you now find a new endeavor in watchmaking. You're starting from scratch, basically, like yourself, like, building up potentially a second career, as you mentioned. And it's it's a conduit to new relationships, right? Like you say. So, like, watch. We love watchers, but we love, like, the conversations and the camaraderie that we can build around them. And I think it seems to me the service you provide in with TGS is a wonderful platform to establish new connections because people are putting their trust in you. You are alleviating the potential stresses around buying watches for our listeners that maybe haven't encountered what timepiece grading specialists actually do. Could you give us an intro to that?
- [16:47]
C
Yeah, of course. But, but. So timepiece creating specialists, you know, I, I built it to solve a problem that I had as a collector. It all started, you know, about 10 years ago, maybe even a little bit more. I, as I told you guys, I was a vintage collector, pre owned collector, and I, I ended up buying my first watch at auction and, you know, big fancy auction house, and I felt like a real big shot, like I'd really arrived as a collector. Like, look at me, I'm buying, you know, watches at auction and, you know, I'm showing all my friends photos, all my watch friends, the photos of my, you know, we all have that album in our phones and showing them the photos. And one of my friends is like, oh, that's, that watch is no good. I'm like, what are you talking about? I bought it from like this big auction house. What do you, what do you mean? He goes, oh, it had been redialled and I didn't even know what that meant, you know, at the time. He goes, oh, yeah, look, the, the, the serifs on the X are no good and the hash marks are all uneven. And I was so, I was like, crestfallen. Like, I couldn't, I couldn't believe it. I mean, that's why you buy from these places. And the thing that shocked me even more than that, though, was that none of my watch friends were outraged. No one thought it was crazy. No one thought it was. You know, I thought we were going to storm the gates together and tear down this auction house, but it was the opposite. You know, they all kind of threw their arm around me and they were like, ah, you know, welcome to the club. You're one of us now. You're a real collector. And, you know, it felt a little better, but, you know, still not, not, not great. But, you know, I, I looked to the left, you know, and to the right and all these other collectible verticals and watch people are the only ones that accept that as like, the normal cost of doing Business or, you know, the pain of experience. You know, every other collectible has one, if not more, third party authentication and grading services. You know, you know, whether you're talking about trading cards or coins or comic books or handbags or shoes or even video games, they all have, you know, a service or, or obviously, you know, you know, Gia with gems, you know, is, is probably the, the most well known, but watches, the secondary market of watches is still kind of the wild west. And you know, some people, and I'm, I'm certainly among those people and I feel very fortunate. I know, you know, terrific dealers. I know if I have a question, I can call, you know, the heads of auction houses or, you know, you know, the people who literally wrote the book on these watches and, and I've made these great relationships over the years. But that's very rare air and I appreciate that. But I feel like everyone buying a watch on the secondary market should feel like they have an expert looking out for them. And even with all that access, I still ended up buying a watch that was, you know, was no good. And I just feel like it's just a big kind of scary world out there in the pre owned watch market with no one to kind of look out for you or there's no standardization of, of what's good or what's not good or what's been replaced or what's not replaced or what's, what's mint and what's not mint or what's polished or unpolished. And it's just, it's a very opaque world. And so I felt like I needed someone to kind of, you know, look out for me. And so I, and like I said, I have some, some friends out there who can, but everyone should have that. And so I had this idea to build a service much like GIA for gems or PSA for trading cards. I wanted to build a service that did the same thing for watches. But I was, you know, working and I was busy and you know, I just didn't have the time. But this idea had been in my head. And then a few years ago there were these kind of dual strikes in Hollywood. There was like a actor strike on the heels of a writer strike, and there was no work for like 14 or 15 months. And this is on the heels of COVID where there was no work. And so I was sitting at home and my wife was like, we're not going to let this be like Covid, like where you sat on your hands and just waited for someone to tell you when it Was okay to go to work, like do something, like be productive, like, you know, get out of the house, you drive me crazy kind of thing. And so I, I had this idea, so I was like, oh, let me see if there's a, we could make this a real thing. And I spent like 10 months going around the country looking for watchmaking partners. I knew I needed partners to help me open the watches and who had knowledge of all the watches. And I was all over. I was in Dallas, I was in New York, I was in Miami, San Francisco, L.A. chicago, Kansas City, all over the United States. And I ended up in Dayton, Ohio where I met Ron and Emily Stahl. And they have a company called Stahl Co. Which has the largest independent watchmaking service center in the states. They have over 40 watchmakers here, servicing 15,000 watches a month. And there's an expert in nearly every luxury brand. So there's just a tremendous breadth and depth of knowledge here. And once I met them, you know, we, we made a partnership and I realized then, oh, there's, there's, we, we could do this. You know, I didn't want to ship watches, you know, to an Omega expert at this part of the country or an IWC expert over here or Rolex expert there, or a Patek expert here. I wanted to have one central location and I, I found it here in Dayton, Ohio. And so together we started a company called like as you mentioned, tgs, Timepiece Grading specialists. And we again like GIA for gems. People send us their watches, we take them in, we have our watchmaker open them up, we evaluate their originality and their condition and assign a score to that watch. We create these documents for each watch. It's really detailed documents with kind of high resolution photographs outlining all of our findings. So we'll say, okay, this is a service replacement bezel here, this is a generic crown there. The hands have been re loomed, the bracelet code doesn't match the year of the serial number on the watch. There's a little scratch here, it's been repolished there. And so we create a whole picture kind of the life of the watch and, and then assign a score to each, each, each watch. With the idea being that we want to make buying a watch on the secondary market transparent. We want, we want to bring a, a sense of openness and, and, and a confidence to the consumer that that has not existed before. So that anytime you buy a watch, you're able to look at this document and see everything about the watch and determine whether or not that's the watch for you.
- [23:58]
A
When I met you at Geneva Watches, you were starting up. I loved the idea. We jammed on the idea that when I was studying in the US I bought a sealed basketball card of Michael Jordan when he was a rookie. So I have friends that collect comics and stuff. Cgc, everybody who collects stuff knows CGC is the Paramount sealer and grader. You can verify the numbers and everything. I had like a zillion questions because your idea is brilliant. It's the wild, wild west. In the watchmaking world, there is no benchmark, an independent party that does this. So I love the idea off the bat. You start it up. I know the Stoll family as well. Personally. I have hands on experience with them, and they're amazing. So you've done everything right. What I wanted to know is, aren't you scared in the US with this suing culture that there is a backlash if you guys make a misstep in your grading?
- [25:03]
C
We can't be afraid of the negative side of it. I think if you're afraid of things, you'll never do anything. We stand behind our findings. You know, if someone wants a watch we graded, you know, we can absolutely do that. And, you know, we have terms of service, you know, in our service agreements, you know, that people agree to when they sign up for an account here saying that, you know, these are, these are the opinions that we have kind of to the best of our ability. And at the end of the day, you know, there's, you know, errors and omissions, insurance. So in the worst case, we, we have coverage there. But no, I feel like it's a great solution to a problem that a lot of collectors have. And we don't give an opinion on something unless we can back it up, unless we can prove it. So if you say, oh, it's been repolished, well, how do you know? That's very vague. But as long as we have evidence that we can really point to and be very definitive, you know, we, we, we stand behind those findings. You know, there are a lot of transitional references. You know, is, is the, is, is that the correct bezel for that serial number or for that reference number, you know, for a red sub, you know, what's the correct, you know, serial numbers for red subs? Is it transitional? Is it not? So, you know, there's, there's, there's leeway, you know, kind of for everything. But if we can be definitive about something, we'll. We'll state it. But I think that, you know, we are offering A level of transparency that doesn't exist at all right now. And so I think that we, you know, there's a reason I'm living in Dayton, Ohio and my family's in Los Angeles, California. It's because there's just an incredible group of experts here that, as you said, they're the gold standard in the business for people that know them. It's just a tremendous knowledge base here. And so, yeah, I mean, we stand behind our findings. You know, are we going to get it wrong sometimes? Yeah, I'm sure we will. I'm sure we will. So it's not about being perfect, but it's about when you do make a mistake or something is pointed out to you where it's incorrect, you know, you fix it, you make it right. So, you know, to your question, I'm not, I feel like entering into something, being afraid it might go wrong. I mean, you just, you'd never do anything. But I feel like we're very well covered, you know, both, you know, with the knowledge base that we have and with the trust we have, the community, the trust that we have within the community to really offer something to the collector that, that doesn't exist.
- [27:45]
A
Taking it from there, looking at, making it tamper proof. What you guys do. Walk us through the process of going to your website. So for our dear listeners that might not have found the Website yet, it's timepiecegrading.com you can register your watch there. Walk us through the flow of what happens from the moment we request a grading service from you guys all the way to having it graded. Do you seal it? What do you guys do?
- [28:21]
C
Sure. Well, I'll start, I'll start at the, I'll start at the end. You know, you were talking about basketball cards, your Michael Jordan basketball card. You know, basketball cards, coins, comic books, you know, those are all sealed. But I'm a big proponent that watches are meant to be worn. And so, you know, we don't seal the watch. We, we, our findings capture a moment in time. So we're showing you what the watch is now in this moment. And we do two things to kind of preserve that, that, that moment. The documents that we make with all the photographs of the watch are dated so that, you know, you know, at this date when the watch received this grade, this is what the watch looked like. So that kind of preserves the exterior findings for the interior, to preserve our findings for what's going on inside the watch. When the watch is returned. We have residue free tamper proof stickering that goes across the back of the watch that the end user removes. But as long as that sticker is intact, we can stand by the integrity of our findings for the interior of the watch. So with that sticker in place, we know that the movement hasn't been swapped out or the dials haven't been changed or the hands haven't been re loomed or anything like that. So between the sticker and then the date on the photos, we capture that moment in time. Now the end user is going to take that watch and go out and wear it and you know, will, you know, might modify it in some way or might add another scratch or ding here and there and that's fine. But then when that user wants to sell that watch again, they might want to send it back to us to get regraded. So we didn't want to, we didn't want to seal it in a way that people couldn't access it. You know, we want auction, we know auction houses to are working with us and they obviously want, you know, previews. People want to be able to look at the watch in a preview. We have, we work with retailers who, when they sell a pre owned watch, they want to, their clients want to try it on in the metal. I mean I would, you know, when I go into a jewelry store and, or you know, when I walk into Ken's that want to buy a watch and want to look at a new watch, if it's, if it's a case in plastic, I'm not going to be interested in that watch. So we want people to interact with the watches. We want people to try them on, we want people to be able to sell them. But the best way to do that is to, you know, not in case it, but to just preserve this moment in time so that when you're interested in buying it, when you're interested in looking at the watch, you can say here's what the watch looks like right now. The experience is you go on the website, you sign up for our service and we have our prices. It's a sliding scale based on the value of the watch. Because we insure the watch, we ship the watch back and forth to you. So you select your service, we send you everything. You know, it's a real white glove service. So we send you empty boxes, you know, pre labeled voip, fill shipping instructions, all of that. You send your watch to us. When we take the watch in, we provide it, we find a watchmaker who's an expert in that brand. They open up the watch, they look inside, make sure. Everything's, you know, correct, or as it should, as it should be in the interior of the watch. And then they close it back up. We photograph it. We photograph it inside and out. And we build these documents, you know, like I was mentioning, that are annotated, you know, high resolution photographs of the watch. Every component on the watch gets a score. There's probably 15 different component scores. Originality gets a score. The movement, the hands, the dial, the crystal, the crown, the bracelet, everything gets a score. And all those component scores are put into a weighted formula to give you one score. And it's weighted because, you know, a scratch on the crystal, for example, shouldn't be as detrimental to the score as a scratch on the dialogue. So all these component scores go into this weighted formula and you get one score for the watch. You know, a 10 is gem mint. Anything in the nines is mint. Eights are near mint. Sevens are excellent. Five and sixes are very good. Four is good. And then, and then, and then down from there. But to be honest, we don't really see many fours. I think, you know, five in the fives are kind of the lowest scores that we've, that we've seen. We package the watch up, we put it in a case. It's not sealed, but we put it in a case to protect it during shipping. And we include a card. And the card has the make, the model, the serial number, the score on it, and a QR code that links to these documents. The document also exists in your user profile on the website. But the card is really kind of what travels with the watch. And so we have retailers with the watch in their case next to the card so people can kind of scan the QR code and learn everything about the watch or about that watch in particular. And we do all of that within seven to 10 days, seven to 10 business days. We get it back to the user.
- [33:34]
B
I'm curious as to whether you work with auction houses directly to provide this service, because it would seem there's been some scandals in the last few years, let's face it, of things being put up for sale that were not as genuine as the sellers had suggested. Have you found that auction houses are coming to you to, you know, verify their own lots before they allow them to be put into the auction catalog.
- [33:58]
C
We're working with a lot of auction houses. We're not working with like the, like the Sotheby's, Christie's, Phillips yet, but we're working with a lot of smaller auction houses who are building a watch vertical you know, who don't want to hire a watch specialist, you know, they, they use us instead. People who are expanding into watches, people who are growing their watch departments. So we're working with a lot of auction houses who are, you know, who don't have the, the kind of, the infrastructure as some of these bigger ones do. I mean, you're right. I think they're, you know, like that, that's what started it for me was that I, this watch, you know, had been redialed and I, I didn't know that, that there's an opportunity to add value to the bigger auction houses and, and kind of the customer experience that, that, that, that they have, that they offer. And you know, that's certainly on the list. As we continue to grow and people continue to know who we are and ask for us by name, I think, you know, those bigger, those bigger places will, will come. But you know, they're all, they know about what we're doing. You know, Paul Boutros, R.L. box, Jeff Hess, you know, they're all friends and supporters and know what we're doing. And I think that, you know, as we continue down the road, you know, we're working, we're kind of, we have a kind of a two pronged approach. You know, we're working direct to consumer. So a lot of people are sending us their watches directly and then we're working with retailers and online marketplaces and I think as those, I think as those two sides of the business grows, they'll converge at, at auction houses, at the big ones. So it's, it's definitely a target for us.
- [35:43]
B
You don't list your partners in the retail or the auction spheres on the website.
- [35:46]
A
Right.
- [35:47]
B
There's no sort of TGS certified badge of, of honor that you can give out to these people, is there?
- [35:54]
C
We so not on the website, on, on our Instagram page. You know, we, every time we have a new retailer who signs up with us, we, we, we posted on, on the Instagram page. But the network is growing. The network is growing. You know, we have, you know, retailers
- [36:11]
A
in
- [36:13]
C
everywhere from, you know, Miami to New York to San Francisco to Houston to Grand Rapids, Michigan. And so, you know, we're, we're, we're building a network of retailers and I think that the more we grow and the more we get the awareness that we're out there to people, I think the more people sign on and understand the value add not just to the consumer, but to the, to the retailer as well.
- [36:43]
B
I was amazed that you've got 40 watchmakers, 44, zero.
- [36:48]
C
It's insane. I mean, yeah, this is, there's, there's, there's nothing like this that exists in the country. And I can say that because I kind of, you know, made a, made a study of it. I took a lot of time to educate myself on what's available out there. And yeah, I mean, there's some places that have four watchmakers and that's amazing. And there's some, you know, big operations that'll have six or maybe seven and they'll know everything about Rolex and Omega and not much about anything else. Or there'll be experts in brand new watches but don't know anything about, you know, vintage and you know, there's kind of holes in the knowledge. But here it's just incredible. Like it's, it's, it's, there's nothing like it that exists in the country. It's, it's amazing.
- [37:35]
B
I mean, 40 watchmakers, getting 40 watchmakers in one place is no mean feat in any nation in the world. Even in Switzerland, there's, there's a dearth of watchmakers. And where I grew up in the UK, there's even fewer. I mean, when I graduated from the British School of Watchmaking, there were six graduates a year. Now I think there's maybe eight. So you've basically got five years worth of Britain's entire watchmaking output working for you over there in the States. Incredible.
- [37:59]
C
It's amazing. You know, Ron, it's really a credit to, to Ron, what Ron and Emily Stahl have built. They're, you know, aggressive recruiters. They provide a really wonderful working environment and, and, and they're really, they find people, they identify people who might not even know they want to be watchmakers and offer them an opportunity and send them to school. And it's an incredible mix of, of, of people who were, you know, kind of born into the watch world. And then here there's, you know, people who are farmers and landscapers and mechanics and people who just work with their hands and you know, now they're, they're, you know, highly trained, highly skilled watchmakers and they're just incredible at identifying people and holding onto them.
- [38:50]
B
I mean, you're not just providing a service for buyers of pre owned pieces and giving them peace of mind, which is of course like worth its weight in gold or even more so. But you're also stimulating the next generation of watchmakers and watchmaking talent. You know, providing these opportunities, giving these people a chance to train or retrain in a craft like this, it's extremely valuable. So yeah, I'm impressed and very grateful to the endeavor having this wonderful secondary outcome. My numbers brain is leading me to ask what kind of volume is TGS dealing with? Because you've got the capacity for a huge number of watches there.
- [39:30]
C
No, you're right. The volume is, is incredible. I mean they service here, they service like 15,000 watches a month. It's, it's an insane, it's an insane operation. So we can, we're able to scale. That's another reason why this is such a great facility. We can scale here and not have to move. But we're building, you know, we're building. You know, we started with, with, with nothing and now we're, you know, probably doing, you know, I don't know, somewhere around, you know, 40 or 50 watches a month. And, and every, every month is kind of getting stronger. You know, we sign up another jewelry store, we set up another auction house, we sign up another collectors group. And so, so it's, it's, it's, it's building. And I think that, you know, the more people, like I said, are aware of us and the more people adopt our standards, I think the stronger we'll, we'll become.
- [40:23]
A
I was wondering about the, the tamper proofness of things. Us dealing with certified Pre owned since 1975. It's on my mind all day long. I got very excited when the first attempt to use utility NFTs on the blockchain to verify authenticity. And therefore you can also make a timestamp of a certified pre owned item to see if it's real or not or what state it is in and to freeze it in time? Are you guys moving to a model where you become the benchmark where your verification number is the golden standard and are you guys going to move to digital tools like a utility NFT and a blockchain to make it truly independent?
- [41:16]
C
I think that, well, to answer your first question, yes, you know that that's the goal is absolutely to you know, be the psa, to be the GIA of watches. You know, I want to get to a point where when someone goes to buy a pre owned watch, they ask two questions, you know, is it, has it been graded by tgs and if not, why not? And so that's absolutely the vision is that we become kind of the standard, you know, for, for, for pre owned watches. I think, you know, moving to digital. I think, you know, that's, I think if that's where the trend is going, you know, we certainly want to stay Open to that right now. You know, we have a lot of clients who are not interested in the blockchain. You know, they don't want, they don't want people to, you know, kind of necessarily know what they have, who they got, what they paid for it, what they're selling it for. So it's not a demand that our clients have at the moment. But as that changes, you know, obviously would certainly be, you know, we'll certainly grow with, with the times for sure.
- [42:21]
A
What other hobbies or activities do you do besides these watches? Do you still make content? So video films produced direct, you know, right now?
- [42:34]
C
No, you know, I, I kind of during those, during that strike, I started this business and now kind of, that's where my passions are. That's where my focus is. You know, I was telling, as I was telling you guys, I started when I was 6 years old and so, you know, I've had like a 40 plus year career. And I think, you know, when you have a 40 year career, you know, you retire, you get your house in Florida, you know, you kind of stop. But starting as young as I did, I feel like after a 40 year career, I still have, you know, maybe another, another chapter left in me, maybe two. So, so no, my focus is on this right now. I think, you know, we, you know, if we want to do this properly is this can't be a hobby. This can't be, you know, something I do in my spare time. So no, I mean this is definitely, this is definitely the focus right now. And as we were talking about earlier, if I can turn another passion into a career, I'd be thrilled.
- [43:37]
B
Once upon a time, in a Q and A session, which we have frequently on the Real Time show, as you know, someone asked us who would play us in a movie about the Real Time show and we had a lot of fun conversations.
- [43:51]
C
Yeah, that really opened yourself up to some humbling suggestions. What did you guys get?
- [43:55]
B
Well, you know, it wasn't that humbling because we were allowed to sort of. We suggested one for ourselves and then the rest of the team suggested someone else to fill the role. Let me think. I ended up with Tom Hardy alon, I think. Did you end up with Andy Garcia or Jeff Goldblum? Cause that was my curveball suggestion.
- [44:11]
A
I think it was Andy Garcia.
- [44:13]
B
Right, right. Yeah. We had Brad Pitt playing David and then some young starlet playing Scarlett who none of us had ever heard of. But it seemed like a pretty good fit. What I'm asking Fred, is if it's returns and you Want to write a new drama based around the watchmaking industry? You know, we're available.
- [44:30]
C
Great. Yeah. No, I, I, I, I, I may come, I may, I may come to you. I may, I may need those services. Absolutely.
- [44:37]
B
I mean, you must get a lot of material. Your mind must be racing because you're a creative chap. Obviously you don't, you can't switch that kind of thing off. And you, you must see the world in an interesting way, like a sort of narrative based way. The characters that you meet in places like Geneva during events like watches and wonders are, you know, sometimes stranger than fiction. So, you know, let us know because I'd love, I'd love to see a fictional representation of the watch industry.
- [45:02]
C
It is, it's, it's full of characters and I think, you know, I think you're right to some extent. And I think that's why I kind of gravitated so much towards, you know, vintage and pre owned. It's kind of like the storytelling behind these watches, you know, you know, not just the life that they've led or who might have owned them before, but also how they fit into the puzzle of, of watchmaking and, and the evolution of innovation and the stories of brands and how they've changed and what these certain references mean to them. And so no, I think there is a real, I think characters for sure. I mean, you're absolutely right about that. But I also think there's a storytelling to these watches that I think, I think, you know, it's not just given my background that I respond to it. I think all of us kind of romanticize these, these watches and you know, that's why we go and we learn about these brands and we learn about the stories and we learn about these references and, and what they mean. And I think, I think there's an element of storytelling that certainly responds, certainly appeals to me, but, but I think to all of us, to be honest.
- [46:10]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I could see there being a lot of potential material there, even the watchers themselves as characters, because we treat them like people in a way. These are these constant companions, these ticking friends on our wrist. And it's funny how much we can load like personality into an object. But that's what I always loved about watchmaking, that for me it was never about status or, you know, attaining the most sought after grail watches. It was just finding something that I felt like was an extension of myself, a natural extension of myself and could wordlessly communicate a personality type or a sphere of interest to another person.
- [46:44]
C
I think you're absolutely right. I think, you know, these like little, little living, breathing things that have a heartbeat and a pulse, you know, on your wrist. And so I think you're absolutely right.
- [46:54]
A
I have, I know we're running out of time, but I have one annoying, noid old geeky question. Ever since I'm a kid, I'm obsessed with the term mint. So mint condition.
- [47:04]
C
Yes.
- [47:05]
A
And I love the fact that you guys created, I'm saying this in air quotes, gem mint, which is number 10. You've written a little disclaimer that you can see a little bit of wear and tear with high powered loupe. What happens when I send in a factory sealed watch to tgs? What would you make it? And before you answer, Fred, I'll give you a little curveball that GIA does in the diamond world. We start grading colors of diamonds at D, which is the highest because they built in a safety valve that if they ever find a natural gem that is whiter, more white than D, they have cba. Have you guys considered that? Or if you're just stopping a gem mint 10, even if it's factory sealed watch, it just gets gem mint from tgs.
- [48:03]
C
I mean, I'll be honest with. We had a retailer reach out to us and said that they just got a watch back from service from a manufacturer that was, you know, double sealed by the manufacturer. And I discouraged them from sending it to us because what we would need to do to examine the watch is to open that up, you know, open up the case back, open up everything. And if it came sealed from the manufacturer, like, we want to help the consumer, we want to empower the collector, but we also want to make it easier for the retailers to sell a pre owned watch. And I think by taking a watch that came from the manufacturer out of its ceiling, you know, ripping open packs, I don't think that would help the retailer. And so for those, I would tell them, don't send it to us, you know, because in order to do what we have to do, we would have to open all of that up. Some people are willing to do that. Other people say, you know what? We're just going to, our clientele will like that. So we're going to send, we're going to, you know, have it, you know, double vacuum sealed kind of from the, from the manufacturer. So is there something higher than 10? You know, it makes, it makes you feel like we're like in Spinal Tap, like where it goes to 11 right now? No, right now? No, right now. You know, Gemini 10 we actually just got to watch. That was from, like, brand new from a retailer. And, you know, even brand new, it's. It's not going to be a gem mint 10. You know, there's handling marks. You know, some of the people who worked at the retailers weren't quite so careful, it looks like, putting it in and out of the case. So there's some scratches along the lugs. There's a couple. There's, you know, faint stuff. But even this one isn't. Isn't like a. We haven't done a gem mint 10. We've had like a 9.6. We've had a 9.8. We haven't had a 10 yet. But. But we're. I'm hoping to. I'm excited about that. Whenever a watch comes in, we always. I always get excited, like, this is it. This could be it. This is it. And then there's something, you know, maybe the. The strap has been stained a little bit from wear or crimped a bit, or there's a little mark on the crown of the case back, but they're pretty close.
- [50:26]
B
I have one final question, and unless another one pops up in Alon's mind, as is occasionally the case, this will be the last one, and it's gonna take it in a slightly different direction. You mentioned that this is your second career, but you might have enough gas in the tank for a career thereafter. Like a third success, the Holy Trinity, as it were. Now, I know you're a vintage guy. I know you love the stories, the background to watch, but is there any part of you that thinks you might one day want to start your own brand and continue your story and your journey through that?
- [50:57]
C
If you had asked me five years ago what I'd be doing, you know, living in Ohio, grading watches would not have been on my bingo card at all. So I stay very. I'm saying I'm very open kind of to the. To the world and what kind of unfolds. So I don't know. I mean, you know, we. You had mentioned a little while ago about, you know, kind of seeing things in a different light. And, you know, I've been a collector for, you know, a lot of years, and I've met some great collectors and. And dealers, and, you know, you meet some really interesting people. But through this business, I'm seeing an entirely different side of. Of the watch world, which is equally as fascinating. So I'm talking to a lot more watchmakers, a lot more retailers, auction houses, marketplaces, really learning and meeting people who are about the economy of the watch world, really, the buying and selling and really kind of what makes the watch world go round. And so it's opened me up to a whole new group of people that I that are equally fascinating. And so if that could lead to something else in the watch world, I don't know, maybe, or I could be. I mean, who knows, I could be, you know, leading treks up Kilimanjaro. I have no idea where I'll be in five years, but, well, I'm open to it all and I've really been enjoying the ride.
- [52:29]
B
Well, I've really enjoyed this episode as well. Fred, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. If our audience has any questions for Fred, and I'm sure some of them will, then you know how to get in touch with us. You can contact us via Instagram herealtime show or via the contact form on the official website www.therealtime.show. we will be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's and the showbiz industry's finest. Very soon. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.
- [53:00]
C
Sam.