The Real Time Show — Geneva Watch Days 2025

Guest: Joshua Shapiro, J. N. Shapiro
Hosts: Rob Nudds & Alon Ben Joseph
Date: September 7, 2025

Episode Overview

In this engaging and in-depth episode, hosts Rob Nudds and Alon Ben Joseph broadcast live from Geneva Watch Days 2025, recording outside the glass igloo by Lac Léman. Their guest is Joshua Shapiro, the acclaimed American independent watchmaker behind J. N. Shapiro. The discussion delves into Shapiro’s pioneering efforts to bring true “Made in the USA” watchmaking to life, challenges of manufacturing in America, the allure and difficulty of exotic materials like tantalum and zirconium, and the philosophical underpinnings of craftsmanship. The conversation is both technical and accessible, with memorable stories, humor, and genuine passion throughout.

Key Discussion Points & Highlights

1. Why "Made in the USA" — The Origins and Challenges

[00:29–09:07]

• Pioneering Spirit:
  Shapiro is described as both humble and a “madman,” tackling seemingly insurmountable hurdles in making high-end watches in the United States—a region where the watch industry had largely vanished.

  “You’re the first again to make a watch that can bear the title made in the US ... Why are you the first?” — Alon [00:29]

• The Original Catalyst:
  Shapiro jokes about tariffs under Trump, but he ultimately paints a picture of determination to rebuild a lost craft.

  “I just had a feeling that someday Donald Trump would become president. I just really didn’t want to pay a 39% tariff to import parts from Switzerland and wall sites. And so that’s it. That’s the main reason.” — Josh Shapiro [01:45]

• Commitment to Craft:
  The stringent requirements for the “Made in USA” label mean nearly every component, visible or not, must be made in-house—including heat treatment and tooling.

  “In the United States it’s all, or virtually all, and they’re very, very serious about that. ... All the components that you don’t see in a watch... all have to be made in the workshop. No cutting corners.” — Josh Shapiro [07:27]

2. The Watchmaker’s Mindset: Always a Student

[03:48–06:29]

• Staying Humble:
  Shapiro shares formative advice from mentor David Lindau—never believe your work is perfect if you wish to improve.

  “There’s one craftsman that looks at his work and says, ‘It’s perfect.’

  This is the best out there. It can’t get any better. And that person will never get better. ... The other takes a look at his work and says, ‘I have so much to learn.’ ... And that person has unlimited potential. ... I try to keep myself in that constant learner state.” — Josh Shapiro [03:55]

• Educator at Heart:
  Shapiro’s background as a teacher continues to influence his approach, underpinning his continual modesty and drive for improvement.

  “When [Josh] gets asked what he does, he actually still says, ‘I’m a teacher.’ Did you notice that, Josh?” — Alon [06:01]
  “Subconscious trauma.” — Josh Shapiro (laughing) [06:01]

3. The Reality of American Manufacturing

[09:07–15:54]

• Creating Everything In-House:
  Unlike in Switzerland, there are no specialized component suppliers for horology in the US. Attempts to outsource to companies knowledgeable in other fields proved cost-prohibitive and unsuccessful, forcing J. N. Shapiro to develop all manufacturing capabilities themselves.

  “We couldn’t find suppliers in the US. So we had to do it ourselves.” — Josh Shapiro [11:00]

• Extreme Tolerances & Cost:
  Watchmaking’s micro-mechanics demand precise equipment (CNC machines, measuring devices), and the effort to get even a single component to work can require many costly iterations.

  “We have to have an $80,000 measuring machine to be able to measure what the million dollar CNC machine is doing.” — Josh Shapiro [15:09]

• Ticket Price Explained:
  The hosts point out that these realities justify the premium pricing of J. N. Shapiro’s watches.

  “That automatically answers the question why the ticket price is the ticket price.” — Alon [15:54]
  “I think the ticket price is far too reasonable, to be quite frank.” — Rob [16:01]

4. Material Mastery: Tantalum and Zirconium

[16:20–29:07]

a. Obsession with Tantalum

• Shapiro describes his early forays into difficult materials, using the metaphor of peeling a carrot versus a gnarled root to explain why tantalum is so hard to machine.

  “Tantalum doesn’t want to make a chip, is what it’s called in the industry. ... It wears out tools really quickly. ... People assume tantalum is hard, but ... it’s hard to work with.” — Josh Shapiro [19:18]

• Pride in Achieving International Standards:
  Successfully making tantalum cases set a new high-water mark, demonstrating that American workshops can rival Swiss standards.

  “There’s nothing special in the water in Switzerland. ... Now we feel like we can do case making at an extremely high level.” — Josh Shapiro [17:00]

b. The Beauty and Technicality of Tantalum

• The hosts wax poetic on its color, weight, and appeal to collectors who appreciate the challenge behind the work.

  “Collectors specifically like their watchmakers to suffer as much as making their watches. Like, the more they hear, oh, this guy spent 10,000 hours making one component of this. Wow.” — Josh Shapiro (tongue-in-cheek) [21:30]

c. Discovering Zirconium

• Shapiro enthusiastically introduces zirconium as a new favorite, used for both dials and cases. Unlike titanium, zirconium can be heat-blued, turning charcoal or brilliant blue. He avoids plating, which can ruin guilloché dials if it fails.

  “The cool thing about zirconium is, you heat it up to a red heat, and when it cools, it oxides to a dark charcoal color. ... Our latest resurgence ... we made the case out of zirconium, and then heat treated it to a dark color as well. It guilloches nicely. It can turn black. And we’ve also been experimenting with its blues as well.” — Josh Shapiro [26:26]

• Bluing Technique:
  Shapiro describes different methods of bluing, from torches to ovens to open flame, and discusses technical challenges in getting the hues just right—especially the elusive, beautiful purple.

  “It stays that nice blue color for a longer period of time. ... I am going way high on the temperature so that it gets there quicker. ... But it’s a little bit higher than with steel.” — Josh Shapiro [30:46]

• Watchmaking “Nerdiness”:
  Rob calls out how technical and passionate the conversation has become:

  “Honestly, this is the nerdiest podcast we’ve ever done. I absolutely love it.” — Rob Nudds [29:07]

5. Passion, Teaching, and the Philosophy of Craft

[29:42–31:25]

• The Podcast as Platform:
  The hosts and Shapiro reflect on the importance of sharing knowledge, relating their own approach to educating their audience.

  “That’s what a podcast is. You’re educating people about something new.” — Josh Shapiro [29:45] “We always say we’re here to share the knowledge and the passion.” — Alon [29:49]

• The Future:
  The episode ends with the promise of more in-depth features and possibly even a “10-part series” or a live workshop episode as Shapiro’s journey—and passion—continue to inspire.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On humility and growth:

  “If you get cocky, it’ll start showing up in your work.” — Josh Shapiro [05:41]

• On the fate of American watchmaking:

  “It’s painful to see something that was once amazing dwindle and become nothing. ... When I pick up an old American pocket watch ... and know that the company that made it is now an apartment building. It’s very, very, very painful.” — Josh Shapiro [07:27]

• On the love of technical details:

  “In watchmaking ... friction is our worst enemy. We’re trying to minimize friction constantly. ... You can have two perfectly good components that pass the tolerance test, but they don’t interact with one another because their long ability is non existent.” — Rob Nudds [13:22]

• On collector psychology:

  “Collectors specifically like their watchmakers to suffer as much as making their watches.” — Josh Shapiro [21:30]

• On material beauty:

  “Blue is a rare color in nature. ... That’s what tantalum does for me. It brings a color that otherwise doesn’t exist naturally. ... It’s for me. Peerless.” — Rob Nudds [24:00]

Listener Q&As

• Why use zirconium for the Infinity dials?

  “One of my newest favorite materials is zirconium. ... The cool thing about zirconium is, you heat it up to a red heat, and when it cools, it oxides to a dark charcoal color. ... We’ve also been experimenting with its blues as well.” — Josh Shapiro [26:26]

• Is bluing zirconium harder than bluing steel?

  “It has a longer bluing period. It stays that nice blue color for a longer period of time. ... It’s a little bit higher than with steel.” — Josh Shapiro [30:46]

Suggested Listening Segments & Timestamps

• What it means to be “Made in USA” — [07:27]
• Challenges of sourcing and making components domestically — [11:00]
• The significance and struggle with tolerances & equipment — [15:09]
• Tantalum: Metaphor, machining, and collaboration with Ming — [17:00]
• Watch philosophy, collector psychology, and “stealth wealth” — [21:30]
• Zirconium: Color, bluing, and watchmaking artistry — [26:26]
• Live Q&A on bluing zirconium — [30:46]

Episode Tone & Style

This episode is filled with technical passion, insider wisdom, and a deeply respectful, often humorous rapport among all participants. Josh Shapiro’s humility and commitment shine, matched by the hosts’ enthusiasm for “deep watchmaking nerdiness.” The language is clear, evocative, and warm—aimed at both aficionados and curious newcomers.

A must-listen for anyone fascinated by the intersection of art, engineering, and sheer determination in independent watchmaking.