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- [00:02]
Rob Knudds
Hi and hello, watch fans and welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Knudds, and our friendly neighborhood jeweler, Alain Ben Joseph. Today we are joined by the CEO and Chairman of ZRC 1904, Georges Brunet, someone who I have met in person not once, not twice, but not often enough because I love ZRC 1904. I have done for a long time and I can't wait to discuss the brand and its origins today. Well, George, welcome to the air.
- [00:30]
Georges Brunet
Thanks a lot. Thank you for welcoming us and it's always a pleasure talking to you guys. Hope we will go through a lot of good stuff about ZDRC.
- [00:41]
Rob Knudds
Now, it's a long history. It's 121 years old. Now, the brand, which is obviously a wonderful heritage there in the background. But let's go right back to the start. Before we go any further, go into as much detail as you can about the last 121 years since 1904, all the way up to today because a lot of our listeners know about the brand. However, many of them have probably just encountered it for the first time. So please give us the whole story.
- [01:10]
Georges Brunet
It's going to take hours, my friend. We're going to try to sum it up a little bit. Well, yeah, the brand was set up in 1904 by my great grandfather, Mr. Rocher. And at that time he was pretty young because he was born in 90 in 1886. So he was a pretty young guy at that time. And that was awesome. But that's what could people do at this age about 120 years ago. And when we think about today, it's crazy. My son is 18 years old and I cannot imagine him setting up a company and dealing with watches. So yeah, that's a great family history. And what people know is that we are based in Geneva, but we've been obviously spending a lot of time in France at the same time. The company is really had two feet, two foot or whatever on each side of the of both countries. So the first part of Z was set up in 1904 until 1917 in Swiss, that was 100% Swiss company. And at that time we were specialized manufacturing chains for pocket watches. The watch bracelet was not existing at all or that was barely starting to become a study in some famous companies. So my grandfather was a great grandfather, was teammates with Mr. Zuccolo. This is where the company name come from, Zukolo and Roche. And it was right before the first war and the trend was still for the pocket watches at 100%. So at that time, the volume was huge. And we were only manufacturing chains. We were not at all involved into any kind of watchmaking. While my great grandfather and Mr. Zuccolo were still focusing on pocket of chain for pocket watches, they also thought about diversifying the company into jewelry. At that time, we were mainly working with soft materials, so copper, brass, of course, silver and gold. Gold was much more affordable than today. And the majority of the fine jewelry was made out of gold. And right after the first world war, there has been a huge change on the market for the demand of a much more practical watch. Having the pocket watch into a jacket. And that was very complicated to. To have a direct contact with the real time. And the soldiers were already trying to fix the pocket watches around their wrist, Twisting the chain around the wrist and trying to have somehow a quick glance or quick look, quick access to the current time. And that was when my ancestor invented a very, very typical bracelet. I have a nice pictures and few samples still at the museum. And it's called a hook bracelet, more or less. So this bracelet was working like more or less a scissors with a central pin. And you could circle the pocket watch into this four small hook and wrap it around your wrist wearing the pocket watch like a wristwatch. And that was the first step of D Jersey into becoming a watchmaker. Actually starting to produce the bracelet. Very few years after the first world war ended, My great grandfather decided to move a bit forward into the manufacturing of cases for watch. Because the demand of the wristwatches was starting really to hit the roof. And more and more companies were focusing on switching from pocket watches to wrist watches. And this is one part of the history almost nobody knows. And I didn't knew about it also myself that much until I start studying really deeply the history of the company. About two years ago when I decided to write a complete book about our company book, which is supposed to be released this year. And I stumble on whole catalogs and whole printings. Dieted from the middle of the 20s, 1920s, it's about 100 years ago. And I saw that we were already such a specialist for watch cases. That was crazy. We used to produce hundreds of them, not only in brass or copper, but also in stainless steel. And even there has been some attempt to start producing in Titan back in the years. So this is where I really understood that how company always focused on manufacturing watch cases. This specialty we always lasted with us. I mean, we never stop. And as far as I can remember, even when I joined the company we were still producing thousands of watches for or the watchmakers. So this is really part of our DNA and this is something very few people know because people think that the CDSE watchmaking was born back in the mid-50s with my grandfather and which is not true. We were producing zeedersee watches starting the mid-50s. I mean producing watches with a literacy name branded under Zersey. But it was already. We already had 30 years experience in producing watches, I mean watch cases and for the private label companies since 30 years. So with the war, it's always the same. No matter which field of industry we're talking about. The war is always bringing a lot of development, unfortunately. And it's good for the industry. But the demand for water resistance watches came from that period because the soldiers, they were living in crazy conditions and they had to of course, to sustain crazy environment, including flooded and higher temperature in the summer or very low temperature in the winter. Having that the time with you was. Was a must. I mean you just couldn't rely on. On the church in the next village and wait for the bell to ring and know what time you're going to launch your asshole. So they needed to have time with them always. So that was part of the officers responsibility. They used to be the right. The people keeping time for all the enlisted crew. So this demand forced our company to focus on water resistance cases. And starting the early 30s, this is really. We can. We can see a major change in the production. That's what we can see with our catalogs where the case has become a little bit wider, a little bit thicker. We moved from a very square or rectangular shape into a round design, which is much closer to the current trend and with the big ends with the capacity to integrate a wider and more solid watch band. And this was really the start of the development of specific watches dedicated to water resisting. And that was a military demand. This is very clear. So if the most important part of the known history of ZDRC is really starting or dating back the mid-50s, we were really into producing water resistant cases starting the early 30s. What is important is that the majority of them was already made out of stainless steel. I was surprised because I thought that we were mostly focused on manufacturing cases in brass, which was the overall trend at that time. But not. We were already making stainless steel cases. And that was very interesting.
- [11:16]
Rob Knudds
At what time George did the iconic crown between the lugs and the stretchy bracelet and the salt water rinsing mechanism in the bezel, which is something perhaps it needs a little Bit of explanation. At what time did those specific traits start to emerge in the design canon?
- [11:34]
Georges Brunet
Okay, so we have to step back to the 1950s, when the French Navy officially asked their suppliers to produce very specific dive watches under very specific requirements. At that time, Z was not working for the Navy, but we used to have a very, very good local retailer in Toulon, right in front of the French arsenals. And he was an official Rolex service center and he was the official watchmaker repairing the current watches of the Navy. At that time he was friends with our commercial manager and he told him, well, Zida, say you know how to make a watch, water resistant watches, you're working with so many companies, why don't you answer this call and try to offer your own product to the French Navy? This is really how my grandfather had the information about this request from the Navy. So we are back in 1957, I guess, and at that time we had one case which is very famous today. It's the Grandfant, so called S1 on the social nets and on Instagram and even now among the fans of the brand. And this watch was round, very round, 36 millimeter stainless steel case, very, very common, I would say. And it was produced for some other customers. It was a private level case. And somehow my grandfather asked our people inside at the development area or the prototyping to finalize a watch with a Z logo. And they decided to send it over to the Navy to check if by any chance we could be elected or we could pass the test somehow. And the watch passed very, very easily. I am explaining this in the book with all pictures and even some nice details about the watch, how it was produced already. And it was 1959 when we officially got the confirmation that we were registered as an official supplier for the Navy. Even at that time we received a NATO number because all the NATO organization were sharing the supply chain. And this is why ZSA was so much quickly known among different navies, because we were selling watches to the Belgian Navy or to the Spanish, or the Italian or the French. And even some watches has been sent to the US or to Australia. So during the first two years we were delivering this very typical round stainless steel dive watch, the S1, which has just relaunched this year for the 120 years of the company under the name of Securicode. And after two years the Navy told us that, okay, the watch was meeting the requirements 100%, more or less, there will just be no failures. But still it was not 100% matching their request. The thing the case was too small, the diameter was not big enough, the hands were not big enough, the case was not thick enough, the bracelet was not matching all the requirements as well. And also they had a little problems with the coating of the basil which was full of tritium at that time for the luminous. But after hard and intense usage it was peeling off somehow. So my grandfather took all the information and at the development at the R and D they started to rethink about it, how to, to make this watch better. And this is when they invented the grandfant, the final grandfont with the six hour position bezel and the crown, Sorry, this is a very specific bezel with the inserted capsules of tritium which was protecting under an epoxy varnish and this big black box with the chrome ring and this very, very high water resistant capacity because that watch was officially breaking through 800 meters in 1961 during the test. So that was most probably one of the best watch at that time. And this crown protection system at six hours, I don't have any idea where it really comes from. It's not a demon from the Navy. This is clear because otherwise if the Navy asks that few brands would have done it at the same time. So it's an internal idea. But I don't know if it's my grandfather or someone from the R&D department, I have no idea. But no matter what, it was a ZRC idea for sure. So in 1961 the new watch was presented to the Navy. It was tested and finally confirmed and adopted in 1964. And it was a real long experience with the Navy because the last repair, the last officially watch repaired by us owned by the Navy is dating by 1996. So it's a 35 years officially that ZRC has supplied the Navy.
- [18:09]
Rob Knudds
So how does your relationship with the Navy? This is the French Navy we're talking about.
- [18:14]
Georges Brunet
Yeah, talking about the French Navy.
- [18:16]
Rob Knudds
How does that align with tudor's history of being an official supplier to the Navy? Were you both supplying watchers at the same time or were there was there one year when it was at azv, one year when it was tudor or what's the story there?
- [18:28]
Georges Brunet
Oh, the story is very clear. There were few brands officially delivering the Navy. Five or six main brands actually. And I don't know exactly how the Navy decided to order to which supplier, mainly depending on the budget, probably because that was already important, but also maybe on the watch character itself. What I know for sure is that ZJRC had the expertise in the non Magnetic dive watch. And that was the most important requirement for the mine clearance group and the diving fighters. So I know that DDRC was the official supplier and we have supplied during 35 years, almost every year numbers of watches to this unit. This is clear. At the same time Tudor was also an official leader. There has been also some Rolex, there's been some Doxa, there's been few different watches watchmaker of course, but for sure it was not a one time delivery. That was watches were ordered and delivered every year. The central, the official central purchase department of the Navy was based in Toulon and it was RF Toulon, a provision de la flood. So watch supply of the fleet and they were then dispatched into the different unit depending the needs of the units. So the ZSC watches have been dispatched on either mobile units or air units or sea units. We've been supplying Most probably over 50 different units of the Navy, including very famous ships, warships or units like the San Antrier Die School or for instance the, the mine clearance sections. But there are many mine clearance sections in France. You have in the Atlantic Ocean, in the Pacific area. I have records of watches in the museum which has spent like 20 years in Miroroa during the nuclear war test. We have a long history with the Navy that was a very 35 years of good relationship. And if we were able to develop such a good dive watch because we had the feedback for 35 year experience from professional divers. And the very first baseline of ZRC was a dive watch developed by divers for divers. And it's not something you can invent, that's not marketing. That's just the true story of the company. It was an answer to a very specific need. And ZDRC as a watch was first developed like a prototype for the special units of the Navy. It has never been developed for the public. On the first page. After my grandfather has invested so much money and time into developing what was probably one of the best dive watch at the time, he finally decided that it was time to depreciate the investment by trying to offer it to the public and selling through the our sales net at the time. But first it was developed as a real prototype to supply only specific divers of the Navy. So this is what is the biggest difference between ZHC and I would say almost all over. All other watchmakers specialize into dive watches because they all started with a public version that was then dedicated or customized for the Navy. And we did it exactly the other way around.
- [22:51]
Alain Ben Joseph
We're almost halfway in and you see that Rob loves ZRC and you, Georges, because he doesn't let me even take the mic. So thank you for all these amazing stories because in Judaism, we congratulate somebody on their birthday up until their 120th. This is the 121st anniversary for you guys. So the question is, what's next? But I'm so happy to hear this podcast because we met during Geneva watch days last summer in Geneva and I was so happy to hold the watches in my hands because I've actually never held a Grandfont watch there. My French is too poor. But I think that the dial for these legendary watches say etange grandfant. Does that mean deep sea waterproofness?
- [23:45]
Georges Brunet
Something like that. Something. Something very close. Etanche is water resistance more or less on the Grandfant is a deep sea. We use it more as a brand name than the characteristic of the. Of the watch itself. But yeah, that's pretty close.
- [24:02]
Alain Ben Joseph
I've been sitting still, being a good boy, listening, holding my mouth shut and my microphone off. I have a zillion questions, so I'll go all over the place. But ask them one for one. The topic on the mil spec of the navies. Do you actually, in the archives of zrc have these mil spec issued specifications of what the watch needs to have? Like for example, the French Air forces did with the Type 20 and Type 21 pilot watches, like the British RAF did with their Dirty Dozen pilot watches, etc.
- [24:43]
Georges Brunet
You mean the official call?
- [24:45]
Alain Ben Joseph
Yeah.
- [24:46]
Georges Brunet
No, no, that's something that was lost probably because I have a very good friend and this guy is now over 80 years old and he was a purchase manager in the French Navy for more than 30 years and he's helping me a lot to write the book because he has been purchasing ZSC watches for over 30 years and he could recover a lot of official documents and he has a lot of very, very old stuff with him. So I could scan and get a lot of information. What, what was the process and how the Navy was elected. Watch suppliers, or even pin suppliers, whatever, mask suppliers. And we have a lot of information, but the official or very first request from the Navy looking for, seeking for a supplier who would be able to provide the right dive watch required by the special units. This document, I don't have it because that was more or less something very internal to the Navy. And the way Z was hooked in this adventure by the personal relationship of our former commercial manager and the former former official watchmaker of the Navy was not like an official way. I guess that was more like something done between two Guys that were really appreciating each other. And this is how my grandfather got informed about this request of the Navy. We were not directly asked by the Navy on the first place, actually. But what was important is that Zjesse was probably the only watchmaker who really decided to produce a watch from A to Z from the scratch for the needs of the Navy. Whereas the other watchmakers just took try to adapt an existing watch to their requirement. And this is what is the biggest difference, I would say, between a watch that was born for the public with specification dedicated to a public usage and I will explain what is the main difference about that later on and a watch like the Zaederc, which was developed for. For specific usage of professional divers and then pass on to the public. The difference is really important. As for the. You were talking right before about the ECS system, the easy clean system for the rotating bezel. This is something I invented myself. So this came a little bit later in 2014 and I can let you know the story about that because it's pretty fun how it came up to my mind. But if you have any, any any other question, let me know, please do before you do.
- [28:05]
Alain Ben Joseph
So I know you're a triathlon athlete. Are you a diver as well? Besides that you need to swim for your triathlon?
- [28:12]
Georges Brunet
I was a diver before I I ran triathlon. Actually I started diving when I was about 16 years old, probably 17 years old. And so of course I dived with tank and lately had to perform a new degree in re breathing system. Because for the last adventure we've been through with the Phoenix in Vietnam, we had to dive 120 meters deep. So that was not possible to do it by air. And with a normal tank we had to go with air rebreather and trimix. So I have to go under this, this new training. And since 2015 also when I met Stefan Turo, our vice world champion in freediving, which is a our ambassador today, I also started to to dive free diving. So now I can free dive about 50 meters deep.
- [29:14]
Alain Ben Joseph
Please do tell us about the ECS system. So the easy clean system.
- [29:19]
Georges Brunet
Yeah, that's a very, very cool story. And that's a story that can only be that take place with a company with a long history. You cannot invent something like that just by dreaming one night. It's a long process through your mind and your brain and it has to come through real experimentation. So we are back in 2004 and I'm not at all into watches as far as zeedrsey is concerned. I am producing. We are still producing private label watches at that time. Because this is also one part of the story people don't know. ZSA never stopped producing watches. Actually we had a different company at that time in the group and two of them were specialized into manufacturing watches for private label. And we used to manufacture more than a hundred thousand pieces every year during. During years and years. So at that time, I am the one taking care of one part of the private label watch production. And being a watchmaker is teasing me, but I'm not a watchmaker. I've never been a watchmaker until late. And I'm still. I'm already interested into Zitherset vintage watches. My father gave me his father watch few years before, maybe 1994, right before I joined the French Navy, I guess. And so I was wearing this watch when I was in the Navy myself, not really realizing what it was representing, but just having fun wearing my grandfather watching. And when I came back, I joined the company in 2000, 1998. Sorry. And I immediately tried to focus on ZSA vintage watches and they were all very much damaged, almost broken after long years of heavy usage. And I asked one of our old reps at the time, living in the south of France, do you know anyone with an expertise in ZSA old watches? Because we don't have any more any people here knowing anything about this watch. And he said yes, there's an old guy in Toulon, Mr. Pastre, and used to be the French Navy watchmaker and he was selling all the ZRC watches at that time, so you should contact him. And he gave me his number, I remember, and I called the guy and he was very old, over 90 years old. And his breath was very difficult over the phone and I could feel some pain. He was sick and I knew later on that he had a cancer. And I told him, I am the grandson of Louis Brunet and I am taking over the company and I want to know more about the Zhelsee Grandfant. Is it possible to meet you and say ah yes, with pleasure. Louis was a good friend and so whenever you're in too long, just step by. And so I Met the Guy 2004 and we immediately had a very special relationship. He was a very good friend of my grandfather at that time. They were crazy young guys in the 60s, you know, drinking a bit too much, smoking a bit too much and having fun and parties in Marseille and Toulon. And we immediately had a good feeling together. And he teached me how to repair the Grandfant because he had a lot of tricks. And this watch is very, very complicated to operate. The rotating bezel system, the crown, the. The closing system, everything is complicated with this watch. This is where the severe the story started. Because you really understand that was developed like a prototype. It was not developed for industry, it was not developed for the public. This is clear. It was requiring a huge amount of knowledge in terms of watchmaking to operate this kind of watch and being able to repair it. And I spent years with him, maybe two, three years, coming every, every year, maybe four or five times, meeting him in too long and in his small workshop. And I remember once we were training on the rotating basil and he told me, oh, catch up some, some used old basil in this bucket and find some ZJSS and I'll let you know how to repair it. So I just dunk the bucket on the floor. There were like hundreds of basil broken and completely rusted or with salt concretions. And of course all different brands. Some Doxa, some zdruc, some Tudors, some Rolex and whatever. And so I collect all the ZDRC ones and told me, put it on your tongue, what do you feel? And I felt the salt very, very strongly and a metallic taste. And he explained to me, this is the problem with aluminium and stainless steel and salt. It's creating electrolyte and it's melting. And this is finally blocking the rotation of the basil. And if once you decide to remake the grand font, you have to find a solution to solve this problem, because beside that, you had the best watches for diving. And he was the expert of the navy repairing all of the dive watches of the French Navy at that time. So of course we are back in 2005 or six, maybe at that time, and it's about 10 years before I decide to restart the Grandfant. But it was probably resting in some place in my mind, in my brain, trying to develop some kind of a solution, even not thinking about it. And we are in 2013 and we are thinking about the 110th anniversary of the company with my brother, what to do, Try to have some kind of a ceremony or invite big customers and old partners and do something for the 110th anniversary. And I'm wondering, what should I do? I have to do something. I have to present a specific product, I have to show something to. To demonstrate what is ZDRC, what's the knowledge we have accumulated after 100 years and ET cetera. So I start to think about the specific product. And since we are not anymore into Watchmaking under the Zida SE brand. I'm much more focused honestly on jewelry. So I'm thinking about a very special jewelry because we have a long, long history of over eight years in the jewelry business as well. So that could be a solution. At that time we are running four different brands. We have zrc, which is the main brand where we have the core business selling replacement bracelet and metal, synthetic and leather. We have a high end unmade in France in exotic skin line which is 19, 1904. And we have a fashion jewelry brand in a premium access luxury in silver, which name is Eva Zukolo. So in remembering of the one of the founder, Mr. Zucco. And we have another brand which is Rocher for the main alternative jewelry made of carbon fiber, Titan stainless steel. So we have four brands and I am at the head of the marketing department at that time and the development. And I think it's too much, it's too difficult to develop for brands. It's too costly, it's the. Too many fields of experimentations and all the brands have different characteristics. So my idea is to try to find the one brand among the four which is the best and to regroup everything. And to do that I have a coach at that time, a brand coach, like a brand manager. It's an outside company with a subcontractor. And we are having a lunch and I am wearing my grandfather watch. And he checked the watch quickly because the guy is an expert. And he told me, well, this watch is very weird. Why the crown is positioned at 6:00. Can you show it to me? So I passed the watch to him and immediately I can see it again in my mind. He's readjusting his glasses and he look at me with a very interrogative look, like, hey, why does the Z logo on this die? Because he doesn't know. And I explained the story. The French Navy commander Cousto, all the special units. And while I'm talking to him, I can clearly see his eyes becoming wider. And he's like, my guy, my friend. This is, this is a bomb. You are talking to me in this. This is crazy. This is a story. Everybody would like to have the same. So don't look for any other product. This is the one product you need to relaunch for the 110th anniversary. You have to do this. This is embedding all the values of your brand. The family history, the quality behind the development, the technology acquired among those years. You have to, to go back with this. This has to be your, your diamond product on top of the Zha C pyramid. And we don't have time to, to celebrate the 110th anniversary because it happens that by accident one of our biggest competitors is on quite delicate financial situation and we have the chance to buy him back. So in 2014 we, we are working on this big purchase. It's an outside growth, external growth, which is eating all our time and, and resources. So we decide to, to celebrate the 111th anniversary instead. And it gives me another 18 months to develop the watch because we haven't produced grandfant watches at that time for over 30 years. And we have somehow forgot a little bit about this technology. So we have to put ourselves into it and restudy the way of making, of manufacturing this, this very specific watch. And during this process, I have this light coming up into my mind of this 10 years before conversation I had with Mr. Past in Toulon where I need to find a solution for the rotating bezel to make sure it will not be stuck by salt or impurities. And I remember we are talking with my product manager, Guillaume is still working with me and we are trying to figure out some technical solutions to find a way to prevent the water to come, to sneak into the different components and after evaporation to. To leave the salt there or to have impurities block the rotation of the basal. Because there are two phenomena. The first one is the salt, of course, which is very aggressive and it can lead to a rust of various components like the spring balls or the springs that allows the basal to rotate. Or you also have the problem of the electrolytes, which is a phenomenon, a natural phenomenon. When you have a case in steel and some components in aluminium and if you have some salt into the middle, it's melting all together. And this is one big problem everybody knows about, especially in the navy, because this is the. This kind of corrosion is really very aggressive on metal boats. So we are discussing with our manufacturing unit and with all the R&D department and we are not able to find a solution or if we find some solution, these are solutions already developed by other companies. So it's fake, it's not zersy. It's not. It's not something coming out of our experience. And it's late at night, maybe over 11pm and I'm watching a movie and this is weird, the story is crazy. And I'm watching this very famous movie, Dust Boat. I'm sure you've seen it with this German U boat submarine under attack in the Gibraltar Strait and is finally almost sunk Dunk on the bottom of the sea and taking water from everywhere, whatever. After some time the guys are able to have it come up to the surface and they're saved. And at the time the boat reached the surface, you have on the German boats of the time a very specific tool on the hull which are the events. And there are oblong holes on the outside hull of the submarine that is allowing the water and the bubble to circulate freely and come up to the surface very long after the submarine passed. And that was a way to cheat the enemy. So they were thinking the U boat would be there where the bubble on the surface, whereas it was already passed long away. And when I see that, I think, okay, we cannot prevent the water from sneaking into the different components of the Basil. So what we will do, we will find a way to rinse this water after usage. And I start to draw something quickly. I remember I shoot a picture, I send it to my guy and I tell him, try to figure this out more technically and see how much it can work. And this is how I invented the EasyClean system.
- [45:43]
Rob Knudds
To your knowledge, has any other brands copied this easy clean system? Because I've seen brands that have easy pop off bezels before where the bezel literally is removed from the case. But this, I don't think I've ever seen this before.
- [45:56]
Georges Brunet
No, no, for sure, because we could be, we could patent worldwide this, this, this system. I started the patent survey in 2014 and I got the last patent in Japan in 2022. It took almost eight years to patent in all major countries. And when you need to obtain a patent, the local attorneys, lawyers, they will study very, very carefully among all the existing patents. If anybody has already tried to protect such a system before. So this is why it's taking so long and it's so costly. So of course there are no. I got many, many brands that try to oppose. I oppose something. And Psycho tried, many, many brands tried to oppose some solution, but we could overcome them all the time. And finally we got worldwide patent. So for sure we are the only one using this technology.
- [47:05]
Rob Knudds
When it comes to customer feedback regarding this special technology that you and no one else has, how important is it when it comes to purchasing the watch? Is it just a little additional story they can tell, assuming they love the aesthetic, or is it actually a reason why people come to ZRC because of that development you've made and no one else has?
- [47:23]
Georges Brunet
Well, I think there are two, there are two answers. The professional divers which are still using a lot our watches because we are still delivering a lot of the French Navy units and we are also working a lot with professional divers all around the world. And they obviously love it because the basal problems linked to the rotation is really happening. This is really something you are facing with all other watch brands whenever you try to use a public watch for professional usage. So thanks to our concept, this is something we can prevent and this is 100% efficient. After now 10 years of manufacturing the ZDRC Grandfant again, we never had any one single basal problem, never. So this is not just a marketing asset or just a patent for fun. It's really something that works and that tells a lot about ZJRC and its commitment to producing a very unique piece of watch. So for the professional, it speaks really as an everyday usage. For non professional, this is part of the dream, it's part of the history. You buy a Ferrari, you're not Fernando Alonso or Michael Schumer or Lewis Simons, but you buy the Ferrari. And I think this is the key people part, a piece of dream. They love the history of Z jersey because it's a long lasting history in the same family. They love the history because the watch is different, the look is completely unique. And if you wear any other watch from 3 meters away, they all look the same beside the logo. Sometimes you won't be able to see the difference. Exception for Panerai with a very specific case and some other watch like that, but were very few when you were zrc. Even if you don't know the brand, you immediately notice the crown at six and that's something that is very unusual. So all the history behind that, the crown protection system, the easy clean system and the program deformation of material we're using, we can talk about it later to increase the accuracy and the resistance to the depth is there are very, very specific features embedded in the ZDRC that are really telling who we are and who we've been and how we have been passionated into developing new technologies since we decided to go into watches. And I think that's part of the motivation of the public to acquire a watch which is not that much renown still.
- [50:39]
Rob Knudds
So that's an interesting point. So the product itself is able to communicate the story, the brand's history, its heritage and so on, because it is so specific to its task, to its intended task. And also aesthetically, like you say, unlike many other things on the market, it has almost no corollary. There are a few, of course, watches that do have crowns between the lugs, but all in all within the dive watch sphere, it is quite unusual. You talked about a dream, about creating the idea of a dream. Somebody buying this watch because they, they maybe aspire to the attributes one would bestow upon a daring deep sea diver. But how are you communicating that in ways other than the product itself? Do you feel that your communication strategy through the press, through your social media, maybe the way that you talk to people at events, do you think that's good enough? Have you seen great, great feedback from it? Have you seen great success from it? Are you planning on changing it or evolving it, or developing it? And if so, how and when?
- [51:42]
Georges Brunet
Okay, big question. Of course it's never enough. We can always do better. This is the guy believing he's doing everything perfect as maybe to do something else. I'm sure we don't do enough. This is also why I spend so much time myself visiting official dealers, distributors, agents. This is why I'm attending all the shows B2C events where I can meet hundreds of final consumers and tell them the story directly because I'm the one who's really the expert about it and I know all the crazy and crunchy details. So of course I need to do more. On the social media, we are quite active, of course we have a lot of information, movies, tutors, we try to be also releasing movies. I think we have over 35 or 36 movies now, so I think we're quite active. I try to focus a lot on the explanation, but they are very technical. And in majority of the time you need to find a way to be a little bit more easy, to go a little bit less into the deep details of the technological, the technological side, because not everybody can understand. It's not. There's nothing to matter with intelligence or capacity. It's just that when the technology is involved at such a point, when we are talking about hundreds of millimeter differences or material deformation under pressure, depending the molecular characteristics, it's. It's not that easy to explain. So that's why we are focusing now on trying to develop 3D animated movies thanks to the artificial intelligence, and try to display a little bit of science a bit more like an animated movie to make it easier to understand. Like if you were trying to explain something complicated to a child, for instance, and make it easy to understand being more visual than technical. And this is a project we're working on now for 2025. Of course it takes time and it's not easy to organize because you need to correlate this together with the, the current technology and make sure we can be maybe shooting in 4k or maybe adapted to the 3d dimension. Wear it with a cask, a mask, and try to. To go deeply into the watch yourself. Like if you were a. A small electron and if you could follow the water, for instance, circulating into the easy, clean system or stuff. So these are things we are thinking about to try to provide an easier approach of the technology embarked into the Grandfant. Because it's not so easy to explain in easy words. And also in the majority of the time it's referring to physical rules that are not easy to understand. For instance, if we talk about the specific case back we have developed, which is working like a submarine hatch. This is an idea I also had because of my French Navy experience. And this is something nobody else is doing. But it's not easy to explain. So we try to have a 3D open drawing where we have like a sandwich of all the different components of the watch, how they. They are assembled together and how it works. But words is not easy because it takes time. You need to speak for minutes and people need to listen. And after sometimes you, you just. You just. You're not able to follow. So we need to be more visual.
- [56:26]
Alain Ben Joseph
You currently have two family lines, both dive models. I'm quite sure in this 121 years, ZRC did not only make dive watches and pocket watches. Did you guys have chronographs and other watches? And are you planning to make in the modern era of ZRC other watch families and therefore complications or types of watches?
- [56:50]
Georges Brunet
Okay, so in history Z. DSA has only produced dive watches. This is clear under the ZSC name. So there has been three models, the S1, the Grandfant and the Special. These are the three dive watches we've been producing from 1958 until 1982. We never produce chronograph, we never produce GMT. We never produce anything else than dive watches. As for the future, I quickly explained at the beginning that we have launched last year the security code, which is the rebirth of the very first Zeta said dating back 1958 with the three hour crown. That was the very first Z officially registered at the French Navy. So I launched it last year because it was the 65th anniversary of this watch together with the 120th anniversary of the brand. And for this watch there is a chronograph coming up. It's under study now, so I'm not sure we can. We can Release it in 2025. We'll see. But this is already studying. There is also Another chronograph which is under studying with the Grandfant with the Six Hour Cron. And this is a project we're working on for three years and I cannot tell you more about it now because it's a top secret and there's a pattern behind it, so I cannot develop more. But there's another chronograph coming up in the most known and renowned and characteristic watch, the Grandfont. And we have a GMT or so which is finalized in terms of study. We are just now finalizing the prototyping and see how much we can match the case with the GMT movement and the dive movement we're using now with the SW300. So it's just a question of time until we release the gmt.
- [59:11]
Alain Ben Joseph
Final question. When we look at where we can discover, touch and feel the watches, we see you're very, very famous in France, Northern Italy, Switzerland. What is your distribution strategy for zrc?
- [59:29]
Georges Brunet
That's a nice question. Okay. The distribution strategy is obviously to try to spread out in all major countries. This is clear. Unfortunately, the restart of ZDRC has been very, very chaotic. I reopened the company in Geneva in January 2018. We relaunched the first limited edition 300 pieces for the 111th anniversary in 2015. At that time, 2015, nobody knew about Z anymore except the fans of French military watches, which was maybe less than 1,000 people in the world. So the first two years, 2015 and 16, was basically to try to relaunch the brand, attract the sympathy of bloggers, influencers, journalists, try to start to recommunicate a little bit about the watch. But to be honest with you, when I restarted the watch in 2015, I was not thinking of re becoming a watchmaker rent. I was only thinking of remanufacturing few hundreds of the grand font to show what we were capable of and have among all the products we were producing. One dive watch. In 2017, I found out that there was a huge attraction of the market for the story of the grandfant. And I decided that it was maybe a good challenge to to think about re becoming a real watchmaker. That was an internal discussion we had with my father, with my brother, and we did not agree about that. So we had to find a solution to make everybody happy and we split the company. So I quit the the family business, I would say, because there were only one company at that time based in France. And I went into Geneva to restart zdrc. At the same time, my brother had to rename his French company under the Name of Rocher, because we couldn't be operating ZDRC on two companies with completely different products. So when I restarted in January 2018, I had seven retailers and I was starting from zero with almost zero turnover. We had 19. The 2019, sorry, the yellow jacket, if you remember, in France. And 100% of my small net of retailers was almost burned out and rape and you know, they broke everything. Then 2020 and 21, we had Covid, so no export, no traveling, no demonstration, no nothing. And we had no Internet sales. We were nobody. So the real start of literacy is July 2021 and 2022 was a crazy year for all the watch industry because everybody went back to purchasing after starving from everything during the COVID But for us it was just a launch. And the good point is we would. We were still alive because I am auto financing a hundred percent of the company. So that was very difficult to stay alive, I would say. And avoiding going bankrupt and being able to to keep investing in developing products online and getting the stock and delivering was a. Was a challenge by itself. So for me, 2022 was a really key year where the destiny of the rebirth of ZDRC was set. Because it could have stopped at the end of 2022 and 2023 was a very good year as well. And we could restart, could visit a lot of customers and convince a lot of retailers to become official dealers. And I could also find agents in Asia, in the Middle east, in the States, in France, in French foreign territories of the Pacific or so. And we could reach close to 70 official dealers. And 2024 was crazy year for us. I also recruited the head of sales specialized for the Zrset development. And lately we opened six or seven new distributions. So in the past three years, the Zidder set turnover multiplied more or less by two, and the volume also. And we could introduce new lines and really start becoming a more integrated brand. But it has been very difficult. And for the majority of the people that they think, they just say is a huge company, maybe with 30 people working in and dealing already with 10,000 watches a year. But it's not the case. We're much smaller than that. And it was very close to to not be the case after the COVID almost killed us, like it killed many brands which were born right before. So the strategy today is more easy because now I have a structure, I have people with me, I have many countries open. Now we have now 12 countries open and a rate of development which is close to 30 to 40%. We just ended 2024 with a plus 27% which is crazy for last year history and we have good records. Sellout is good. We have very few stock in the shops after Christmas. I just got all the inventories and it's very good. So now we have almost opened all the Middle east, we have open Japan, we have an agent for rest of Asia. We have a lot of very good meeting coming up at the Geneva which is on wonders in April. Italy is becoming a key market where we have now close to 25 doors. Smith is also a quite strong market for us. So yeah, I would say the easy, the most difficult part is behind us now and in terms of strategy, we are more renowned now internationally. There are more people talking about ZSC even in the States. I was surprised we were so much known by so many people. My turnover in the state this year multiplied by three. I mean 2024 and we have not too many dealers there, but they are doing very good. I mean, so I'm pretty much happy with the way things are going now and we have much more means to develop new products, to also focus on new adventures and try to expose the brand as much as possible to to get more fans.
- [67:40]
Rob Knudds
It sounds like the future is very bright and thank you for taking some time out of your present day to come and talk to us about it. Because for me, the twists and turns of the history of a brand that I've. I've loved from afar, mostly from an aesthetic perspective, are absolutely intriguing and I can't wait to hear more. It does sound like there's a lot more to hear and I think that as the brand pushes forward, as you say, realistically it's only been properly active for a couple of years. It will be amazing to see how it grows. So we will get you back on the show in the near future, but until then, we wish you all the best. If anyone listening has any questions for George fan, please do get in touch. You can do so via Instagram. I'm there. Obnudds r o b n u d d s. You can find Alon at a L o n b e n J o S e P H or David A V a u C H e r. You can contact any of us via email by adding our first names to herealtime show or via the contact form on the official website www.therealtime.show. we'll be back soon with more Q and A sessions and interviews with watchmaking's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.