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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:06]
B
Watch fans, welcome back to the Real Time show. I'm your friendly neighborhood jeweler Alama Joseph calling in all the way from Amsterdam, about to go back to London together with my dear co host Rob Nudds. I don't even know where you are in the world, buddy. Where are you?
- [00:24]
C
I'm in my office in Dresden for once. Yes, I'm back home and taking advantage of the beautiful freezing cold sun. Saxon Springtime.
- [00:32]
B
And today from the other side of the world, west coast Cali, baby. We have. And I'm gonna do my Persian version. Of Havid Nagan. And for, for those that want a normal pronunciation, back in front of the mic now on the record is Aaron Bazar Canyon, as the Americans or the Westerners would call him. I'm saying back on the mic. Welcome back, Aaron. It's great to see you. We've jammed actually for two hours on a mic before and I regretted not taping that episode. So this is a long overdue episode. Welcome. How are you? And please tell me it's warm in LA.
- [01:24]
A
It's what I think just approaching 80 degrees right now. It's sunny, it's perfect. The last week has been like this. We had our share of, I think about two weeks, almost three weeks of heavy rain. But now it's like summer basically. So we took the kid to the beach the other day. It's very much a Cali February, not
- [01:49]
C
everywhere in European money for any of our listeners on this side of the pond. That's 26.667 degrees Celsius. So it's pretty warm. It's zero degrees where I am right now. I don't know how cold it is where, where Alon is, but yeah, jealous, man, really jealous. So while you're all warm and summery and relaxed, why don't you lean back in the chair and tell us your story, tell us where it all began. You can go as far back in your life as you want, but just have fun with it.
- [02:17]
A
Sure, sure. So I, I don't have the typical story that is very, I guess, for lack of better word, common for people that start their own watch brands. You know, a lot of people come from some sort of family background in, in the industry or jewelry or something like that. My parents were born in, in, my father in Lebanon, my mother in Syria and they immigrated to America in the mid-80s. And yeah, it was very much a normal middle class upbringing that we had, my sister and I, and I did, I wasn't exposed to watchmaking up until I was maybe 20, 20, 21 years old. But I very quickly got obsessed and fell in love with it. So it was very much like a deep decline in a good, deep decline of just falling down the rabbit hole and just obsessing over it. I first learned about what anything other than a Rolex and a Patek or AP was through Frank Muller. That was the first watch that I saw that was not a typical round, traditional watch. And I said, what the hell is this? This is like an artistic kind of, of a watch. So very shortly thereafter, I just went crazy with it. I. I fell in love with everything independent. You know, these small little independent houses that were doing just this amazing, unique, different. The finishing was totally different, the dial constructions, the cases, everything was artistic and different. So that's immediately what I glopped onto and kind of, I don't want to say forgot about the mass, you know, the bigger companies, but I just quickly realized this is definitely where I want to be if I ever do get lucky and get into the industry. So I was 21, I was in real estate at the time. I went through different dynamics within the real estate industry. So I did operations, I did the sales, I did brokering. I managed a team of six different agents. So it was, you know, I was trying to find where I fit in. And at the time, I had already discovered the obsession of watches. And every morning I was watching these videos. I don't know if I think his name is Andrew Morgan, with the soft voice and the hands, you know, all that stuff. So every day I was watching those videos, I was like, how the hell do I get into this world? I came from a corporate background, so I had applied to some of the bigger brands. And after doing a couple of interviews, I'm not going to name the companies, but it felt very much like, like, okay, I'm leaving one corporate thing and going into a corporate thing. And that's not what I want. I want to be free. I want to express myself and be around people that think like me and we're not like, you know, chokeholded by just the bureaucracy and all that. So I put it aside. I didn't think I wanted to be in the corporate thing anyway. So it wasn't up until my birthday in 2019 that my wife had gifted me tickets to Watch Time la. The only time Watch Time occurred in la. That's where I discovered Jorn and Grubel. Forzy debut I met Roman Gaultier. Back then, it was just this very inspiring. It was like Disneyland. Like I came online. It felt like, so I immediately realized, okay, this is where I want to be. The fact that my favorite watchmaker of Pigeon was standing right, or he wasn't, but know the representatives of the brand were standing right in front of me. I'm like, there's no way I'm walking away from this event, not taking advantage of these people being here and somehow getting myself in. So I approached the boots, the booth for Jorn, and Pierre Halimi was there and I, who's the general manager still to this day for North America. And I told him, look, I don't know anything about watches, but I know something is drawing me towards being a part of this brand. I don't. I. I'm not gonna lie and tell you that, you know, I know the technical side or anything, but I'm telling you, whatever you can teach me, I will learn quicker than anybody in the company. So he said, I love your passion. We don't have any openings right now, but take my card, please be in touch. Three months later, I'm sitting in front of Laurent Journe and at the time, his now his ex wife, Stephanie Jorn. And I think I met with them two times or three times. And at that point, you know, we kind of discussed the logistics and the salary and all that. And we said, okay, great. So they didn't. They were on the up and up. The Chronomet Blue was already very hyped up, but I mean, they had a safe full of watches at any given moment that people can come in and buy. So it was a very different time at Jorn. You know, it was perfect that I got in at that time because I was allowed to learn and soak in everything that is, you know, the technical side of Journe learned all about the Remontoires and all. Everything that he does. So I learned the history of watchmaking on top of that, on the day to day, I learned, okay, this is how an independent brand is doing things on the operational side and the administrative side. So a lot of the things that they do in the formatting, for example, how they there, they upload warranties when a sale happens or something like that. Like I still do on with my company. So learned everything I know basically from the three years that I was there. At the time, I was already ideating what my debut would be. And actually the first day on the job, I lawance like, are you happy being here? Because he had put the conmet soubron pavana on my. On my wrist and he's like, this is your watch. And I couldn't believe it, man. I'm like, you know, $50,000 watch. Like, who the hell am I? Like, how did, how did I get here? I said, laurent, I'm very happy. The only time I will ever leave this place is if I go and launch my own brand. So I told him that day, I am going to launch my brand one day. I don't know when, but it will happen. So they were very respectful the entire time. Even when, you know, the three year mark was approaching, I had told them, like, look, the time is approaching. Let's find my replacement, who so happened to be my sister, who is still there. And that was it. That was essentially the arc of me going from not being in industry to launching my own brand.
- [09:10]
B
Very romantic and very cool. But you know what? This is a real time show. When I spoke to you, you told me exactly the same story. I couldn't find any deviation in your story. Now I want to give our listeners the raw reality of it. You are a rock star because you didn't had the bed made for you when you left FP Journe and then jumped into Havid Nagan, which that name already is epic. I did not know what it meant in Persian, so please tell our listeners what that means. But when we spoke, you said, alam, whenever you have time, I'll be available for you. And due to our time differences, you were on a different job. You took your lunch break and in the back room, you took the video call with me. And I say this in an American way, you hustle, man, you grind. Walk us through that. So you've decided I'll only leave FP Journe the day I will start my brand. So what happened there?
- [10:13]
A
I mean, look, I, you know, obviously the security of having a day job and having the income coming in with, you know, the benefits and the medical and all that, you know, when you have, when you're married. At the time, we didn't have our daughter, but still you're thinking about, you know, what if the company doesn't do good? What if it goes to shit and I need to jump back in. And to be completely honest, I mean, even Laurent, there's a video of Laurent. They were kind of giving me my last day at Jorn and people were there and we were kind of celebrating. He pr. He made a promise. Like, you know, if everything goes to is like, I make my promise to you right here in front of everyone as witnesses. You have a job at FP Journe. So that kind of. I had that net or the Feeling of the net, at least. But look, to be completely honest, I initially thought, okay, If I sell 40 to 50 of these watches right from the get go and you know, that's the end of the project, okay, we're successful. I didn't really think about, okay, I should go find a job. Just in case. I was very much in the mentality of, I'm gonna go do this, man, I'm gonna kick ass. People were already signing up to put their deposits in for the debut watch. So I felt very good and strong and confident about it. In four months, I sold 115 of them, which was just this, like, holy shit. I was speechless. I didn't know how to interpret the information. We did the hno, we delivered it, we went into development for the HNO one, the Lucene. Everything was going great. I got the prototypes, I did what I did with the hnlo, went into asset building in the photography, videography, media, all that. I got to a point where I had 65 either fully paid or 50% deposits for of what was a $15,000 watch at the minimum and $18,000 watch at the maximum. Hamdan, my Dubai retail partner, was very much all go, go, go. He was ready to go. Everything was great there.
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C
And then you wake up one morning and one of your suppliers has had a change in leadership. So tell us about that situation.
- [12:24]
A
They hit me with, we want to have a conversation with you. We want to introduce ourselves. I said, okay, great, let's talk. And the first thing on the call after we did our introductions was, we're sorry, there's a slight change in the cost. And I said, okay, what are we talking? Well, it's looking like it's going to be three times what we told you. And that essentially just blew. Yep. And that's no bullshit. They changed the entire scope of the project. Like, they rendered it infeasible because that's essentially what at the time I was operating off margin. So I immediately, like, my heart sank. I'm like, what the hell am I gonna do? You know, we went back and forth, what, like, everything was just like coming down at me. And my wife was pregnant at the time. So it's just like, I'm like, the worst things are going through my head. I went into, I'm not afraid to admit it. I went into this like, sort of depression, like a, like a two week depression of like, man, like everything was going great freaking two weeks ago. And then like, boom. This, like, it just slaps you in the face. I went into this Dark place. I went back and forth, tried to figure out how the hell do we solve this issue. Ended up. They were not going to budge. I said, okay, well this is done. I go to the collectors, I say, guys, sorry, the project is put on hold. I refunded everybody their orders. Everybody was very understanding, very supportive, to be completely honest. But I went into this like, like freak out mode because I just burned $90,000 in, in R and D. Now I look at it, I'm like, okay, it was a good write off, but still, like there was nothing to show for it at the end of it. And that's when I was like, okay, well I'm gonna rebuild. Luckily, my family and I had taken a trip to Dubai. My father, my father in law, a couple of my friends. As I landed, as I got off the plane on Dubai, Maro Agarmeni, who was the former CEO of Schwarz Etienne had texted me saying, I have found you someone that can help you rebuild. I was like, okay, thank God. And anything that man says, I wholeheartedly believe blindly. He's one of the best people I've ever met in my life. And I think he's now the CEO of Ming. Ming's Swiss Mauro is a dear friend.
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B
He's the COO of Ming. He runs the Swiss operation and I vow the same. Whatever Mauro says is an under, under promise. And he over delivers.
- [15:00]
A
Yes. So he connects me to this gentleman named Guillaume Tattoo who I now am still working with. He's amazing. I would say Morrow basically copied himself and brought me another version of himself with Guillaume. And I told him the situation. Look, you know, I had this project, it went to shit. I. I have this totally different idea in the classic one, can you help me bring it to life? He said, yes, absolutely. So after that, everything was smooth sailing. But in the meantime, while we're in R and D and developing everything, I was like, man, like I need to figure out what I'm going to do with my personal life. Like, I can't rely on any sort of money or income coming in and I don't want to take money from the business. So I went and found a Dajo and at the time that happened to be Louis Vuitton. I was their watch ambassador for Louis Vuitton in South Coast Plaza. Very, very different experience relative to Fvjorn. It was like, what the hell did I just get myself into? But it was a, you know, now I look back as support my family, you know, we were fine. Luck would have it that someone from this street luxury street brand called Amiri had reached out to me and said, hey, do you. We like what, you know, what you're doing. We like. Someone's shared your resume with us. Would you like to come and manage the Rodeo, the Beverly Hills Rodeo store? I said, yeah, why not? So I wanted to get out of sales at that point because I put it in my mind. I had put in my time in sales with the real estate and the. The Louis Vuitton, gone into management. And that's when we had our conversation. Alan is in the. In the office, the little break room of Emiri Rodeo. And again, none of these jobs got in the way of having. I was waking up very early in the morning doing what I needed to do with Switzerland, early or late at night. So still to this day, I have a day job. It does not get in the way whatsoever of what I do. I'm still on Rodeo. I since left Miri and now I'm working for Brunello Cucinelli as their manager of the Rodeo store. And again, it's a very small team. Most of my work is done very early in the day or late at night. So the design work has been done for two years now up until 2035. So I don't have to worry about what's going to come. You know, how are we going to make the designs work? All that. Everything has been designed up until that year. But the reality that, that was, the ugly reality at that point is when you know, you're just like, wow, like right off the gate, we're doing great. And then, boom. Like a freaking. Not a slap to the face. It was like a straight gut punch that basically took all my. The air out of my lungs. So it's you. One project can destroy you. I very quickly realized. So
- [18:12]
C
it's a horror story, to be honest. It's nightmare fuel. It's the sort of thing that would scare anyone listening who's thinking of starting their own brand out of doing it. And turn your hair whiter than my beards go in these days. Yeah, you've got the right people around you. Of course, Guillaume is a good friend as well, and one of the greatest guys in products and in finding the right connections there is in the industry. I first met him when he was back at Ralph Lauren and he was an absolute dynamo in that role. And he's always succeeded everywhere he's gone. So kudos for finding the right people because that makes all the difference. But tell us this situation with Schwarzetien where they triple the price of something that you've not just committed to, you've had R and D done, you've poured 90,000 into development and building the project to that point. You've got customers lined up and waiting. Was there no contract? Were they not obliged to fulfill the order? Was. What's the deal there?
- [19:07]
A
No, I mean there was no contract, there was no signed anything. They had given me the prices and if I'm not mistaken how things work is 90 day timelines. Anyway, I had understood it as, as a certain price. And then the change in leadership came in and said, hey, we're the new guys. We want to take short sights in a different place anyway. And there, yeah, maybe we can redact this part. But I think a moment.
- [19:40]
C
What? Aaron, while we're taking a second, there's a lot of background noise like rustling or something. Is there anything that we could like do to minimize. It sounds like.
- [19:52]
A
Still here.
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C
Yeah, it sounds like a plastic bag being like flapped against your. I don't know where it's coming from or what it is. I mean
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A
someone's walking around. Let me see if. I don't know if we have any modes. Maybe. Oh. Yeah, I think one of the neighbors is walking around.
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C
Right. Okay. Well, we can probably eliminate most of it with. Yeah. With a bit of mastering. It's just. I don't want it to garble your audio, you know.
- [20:42]
A
Sure. I'm sorry guys.
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C
Yeah, no worries. It happens like it's. It's difficult to find a quiet spot to record. We know. Especially in your part of the world. It's all go, go, go.
- [20:53]
A
Yeah, no, I just, just go ahead, carry on. In any event, there, there was no contract. Like there was no signature. Like this is what we, what I signed for. This is what the price is going to be for the life of the project. It's just I woke up one day and they said, hey, you know, this is it. So like I said, like in every sense of the. The phrase a punch to the gut was like I first of all, I didn't know this could happen. Two, what the hell am I going to do? I've never dealt with anything of this scope ever. You know, there's hundreds of thousand dollars in deposits that I have. I'm responsible for this. And you know, as, as a follow up to the first project which was a success. You kind of don't want it to be left in the people's minds that, oh, he just was, you know, a beginner's luck kind of thing. Like, you know, it had Nothing to do with how good he is. It's more of, you know, Covid times and money was rampant and all that stuff. It was just embarrassing for the. The public image, to be completely honest. The reality is everyone was very understanding. Nobody even made remotely a fuss. And they were like, look, we understand, you know, you're young, you're building it out. A lot of the people that supported me are successful business people or executives or entrepreneurs, so they get it. So thankfully the collectors were not an issue whatsoever. It was merely a sake of how the hell am I going to make this work again. Like I. Everybody received it well or well enough to. Until the project to success. But what are people going to think of me? Are people going to trust me with the deposits again? These are the things that were going through my mind. I mean it was in my mind almost cataclysmic.
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B
I'll use this break very briefly. You rush through the name Hamdan very quickly, but as a fellow retailer and a colleague and an admirer of his and the Perpetual Gallery, which is a very innovative retailer, maybe do a quick intermezzo there because you mentioned it en passant. But it's very rare that a retailer will support and young entrepreneur like you that is very ambitious because you want to make a hotel luxury brand or you did actually.
- [23:31]
A
Yeah.
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B
So what happened there?
- [23:32]
A
Yeah, so I got purely lucky in, in this, in, in being able to be introduced to Hamdan and work with him. I had seen the retailership I classed over and I was like, man, like these guys are like next level. They're working with like Roger Smith and you know, all of the greatest names and a video of him and like his collection. I was like, dude, there's no way I can get this guy to work with me. Luck would have it that my best friend whom I had met from Jorn Naif, who lives in Kuwait, was very good friends with Honda and he had bought a few watches from him, specifically a beautiful Derek Pratt or the Derek Pratt. And what was the collaboration with the Sand? Sort of like the Rose Gold dial. He's like, you need to meet this guy. I'm like, yeah, I do. You know, obviously, of course I need to meet this guy. So he sent an email, introduced us. Hamdan said, okay, let's, let's have a conversation. So I did. It was about 11 o'. Clock. I remember at night, my time and I essentially just like this very, just very innocently introduced myself and said, look, this is what I'm working on. This is where I come from. These are the designs and HN O he only ordered five pieces. It wasn't a huge thing, but he liked my energy, he liked the idea. He liked what I represented, I suppose, and said, okay, you're on board. Since then, the HN01, which was the failed project, he wanted to do 10 pieces, if I'm not mistaken. So you have committed to 10 pieces, which was substantial for me. Then we had the whole mix up. He was very supportive when I told him, hey guys, like, don't send me any wires. We're putting this thing on hold. I don't know what's going to happen. He said, what do you need from me? Like, I will help you in any way. I will connect you to whoever you need me to connect. This can't be the end. Like, we will figure this out. So very supportive. And then he participated in the classic, fun project. But it was a very natural evolution from meeting to where we are now.
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C
He's.
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A
He's like a brother to me, like an older brother. He's. Anyone that has met him will attest, like, this guy is like, he immediately pulls you in like you are my family. It's not even so much a business relationship. I mean, there is that, of course, but it honestly, I was there for Dubai Watch week and we had a showing and events lined up for the gallery. So I was there half the time. I swear to God. It felt like I'm seeing my family again. Like I just took a 16 hour trip to go see my family. So that's how it started. It was a warm introduction, I suppose you can say, you know, I'd love
- [26:29]
C
to talk a little bit about the aesthetics of the design because it's obviously a very striking brand and it's got its own design language. I'd be keen to know whether this was something that you conceived from a personal preference for how a watch should look or whether you did your market research and thought there was a gap for this kind of product or whether it's targeted specifically a geographical area, for example.
- [26:53]
A
No, it has nothing to do with geography. I was, I still am very inspired by Breguet. And when I say Breguet, nothing to do with modern or maybe, you know, all the stuff that they're doing now might change that answer. But I was just in love, in love with the books the Art of Breguet Watchmaking by George Daniels. I just love these like off centered indications and the pocket watches, just taking power reserve indicators, moon phase, just putting them wherever the hell he wanted on dials to Me that was like, this is it, man. Like, this is a guy doing whatever the hell he wants and there's no limitation whatsoever. Now, of course, I came to a very quick realization that there are limitations in how I do things. Just because, you know, when you create your own movement, you could do whatever the hell you want. And pinions and axles and all this stuff go wherever you want them to. I don't have that luxury at least yet. But I always love the off centered thing. So the HNOO was okay, Let me keep it more. I hate to say this, but mass appeal, sort of easier to digest as a first, you know, comer. Now I look back from what I've learned, I'm like, I should have been way more different. I should have shock and awed everyone. And that would have made more of a statement, I guess, but you know, nonetheless. And the HNO one is where it took on the off centered aesthetic with the exposed periphery. So with the classic one, I wanted it to be off centered but a little more traditional. So, you know, the dial was reduced from, you know, from the outset of the diameter of the case to, to, you know, having the guillotine, all that. So I just like layers ends. Can you hear me? You're both muted.
- [28:59]
B
Yeah, we can hear you, but it's like a waste disposal going on.
- [29:06]
C
Okay, now you've disappeared. I can't hear you. We can't hear anything now. Totally quiet. You've gone. I wonder if the phone is still picking up something. Separately.
- [29:25]
B
I think that it switched to the phone.
- [29:27]
C
That's weird.
- [29:29]
B
Maybe his wife turned on the waste disposal.
- [29:32]
C
You're back, Aaron. You're back.
- [29:33]
A
I'm back.
- [29:35]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're back.
- [29:36]
A
Yeah.
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C
Sometimes modern technology is too clever for its own good, isn't it? Trying to just take control of all these devices. Yeah, no worries, man. It happens.
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A
Where was I? Ah, the designs. So where do we leave off?
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B
You left off by saying that you
- [29:55]
C
should have maybe off center.
- [29:57]
B
Yeah, off center. Should have done more to shock and awe.
- [30:00]
A
Yes, yes. So, so with the HNO I I, you know, we were successful. It was great. But now kind of seeing what the market is appreciating and what collectors are, are appreciating much more is they're celebrating. Be different, you know, be out there, be as different as you can be. And I think that will entail much more success for me down the line. So I kind of have learned the confidence to, okay, don't hold back. You know, like my number one thing was always to eventually go into complications. I'm now at a point where I can go into complications. You know, let's do it, like, stop. Enough of this trying to beat around the bush, like, just full assault. Just let them have every bit of your creative expression as possible. So the HNO2 is the last time only watch. That was the most recent novelty that I debuted on Instagram. And after that we'll be going into complications moving forward. And there's a whole strategic change that I made on the company side, too.
- [31:18]
B
To jump in very briefly, explain the meaning of the name, please.
- [31:29]
A
So for. For Armenians. Funny enough, a lot of Armenians don't pick it up when I tell them. Havid Nagan is a commercialized version of the Armenian word Javi denagan, which loosely translates to unending time or eternity. So at the time, and the only reason I did not put my own name on it is actually two reasons. One is because Bowser Canyon is going to be horrible on a dial. And two, Francois, Paul and Breguet always believed if you are not the watchmaker building the watches yourself, you know, actually constructing them, then your name does not deserve to be on the dialogue. And I want to respect that tradition. I think it's the right way of doing things. So, you know, a lot of other people will do that, you know, to each their own. But I want, I like that tradition and I want to respect it.
- [32:21]
B
You perfectly teed up the ball for me there, because where I wanted to go is, you know, I'm sitting and listening here to you. And I love the fact how high you put the bar for yourself as an entrepreneur and a brand owner and a watch brand owner, that it's almost masochistic because the accomplishment that you've done in less than four years is bizarre. While listening, I'm browsing havidnagan.com H-A V-I D N A G-A-A N.com and looking at the archive, you're very transparent in what you've produced, literally per piece, in what configuration and how many pieces. So I, I, I, I literally read out loud, as you said. In 23, you did 115 pieces, 69 in Arca Blue, 24 in J, 21 Plum, 1Ps unique. Going quickly to the classic one 60 pieces last year, 26 Ivory 12, Ebony 10, Cloud 10 perpetual edition. So that's for Hamdan and 2Ps Unix. And then you announce HNO2 for Q3 of this year, 45 pieces. My dear friend, that is a huge accomplishment, especially hearing the setbacks you had that. A lot of new Watch entrepreneurs will be in awe of this. So this leads me to the question, could it be you've maybe had bad luck? I say this in air quotes by starting off your watch career with FP Journe that you put the bar so high.
- [34:11]
A
No. I looked at my time at Jorn as like, this is God's gift to me. If there is a universal, you know, sign or universal force that is pushing me towards something, then I'm gonna do everything I can to. To leverage that. So I always use the sort of. Look, I was born into a great family. I never had to worry about food. I never had to worry about housing. You know, there's much, much, much worse stories out there than the story I just gave you. If I don't take advantage of the things that I was born into, then it's utter disrespect and spitting in the faces of the people that are less fortunate than I am. So I look at it as I'm going to use every single bit of leverage point that I have to make sure I build what I have in mind. So I don't know if it's this immigrant mentality. My father thought the same. It was always, you know, you work, you do the hard work to get to the thing that you. That you envision. And in terms of masochism, I have these ambitions. If I have lower ambitions, then my life becomes much easier. But I want to build this thing out in a very serious way. So it's. It's all on me. And I got to a point where the. That, you know, if I fail, I'll go into a depression or something like this. No, I'm going to do everything I can. I'm going to stay true to who I am and what I have in mind to. To bring to the market. And if I fail, then I fail for the right reasons. I did what I said I was going to do. Whether. Whether or not people like it, that's not my. It's not within my control. I can, obviously you can take advantage of. You know, maybe we make a blue dial or a gray dial instead of a pink dial or something like that. But again, that's. It comes down to your own subjective taste anyway. So that's my mentality is, I've already won. I'm playing with house money. I like. I just need to. Let's see how far I can take this and see how much of my expression people are willing to entertain. So, I mean,
- [36:30]
B
where with your stamina and resilience and passion. Where in your mind is this project called a failure?
- [36:45]
A
Good question. I guess that answer will change every year. Look, obviously at a very small scale, selling out a project is of course success. Each project, you know, when you debut something and someone comes in and 45 pieces of the HNO2 are sold immediately, that's like, wow, okay, that was amazing. If you were to ask me this question a year ago or when I first started, it would say if I don't sell out the Hnoo or if I don't get to 40, 50 pieces, I'm a failure. If I put my, my family subject to, you know, not having income and not having benefits and all this stuff, I'm a failure. And without any, any sort of, you know, success it now, I mean I, I want to make people understand that I, I have serious complications in mind. I am capable of making things that are not just time only the big watch this year is a perpetual calendar towards the end of the year. And it's not just a standard plug in a perpetual caliber, it's something that's a little bit different. And I'll allude to that later. But I want people to understand this guy's not playing around. It's not a. Create some cool design time only simple. Put a movement inside a cool looking case. I want people to understand the full scope of what I view as serious watchmaking, at least to me. So, you know, a lot of the market has gotten to the point of like these very high finish time only watches. Yes, they're beautifully high, you know, finished. But I was having a conversation with a collector, with a serious collector who's very into FP Journe and he was, he was talking to Franco Paul and he's just like super negative on this like high finishing, simple watchmaking, you know, niche that everyone has gone into. So that kind of gave me also again the confidence of like, wait, why, why make things simple? Why not? Sure, the finishing might not have do four level finishing, but it's, it's beautiful, it's, it's well executed. But you're also getting something different and complicated and you know, serious watchmaking. So everything that I'm inspired by was already complicated anyway because it was inspired by, you know, Breguet pocket watches and the Daniel Roth era of Breguet. So everything's sort of converging for me in a positive way. Knock on wood. That's, that's what it feels like.
- [39:31]
B
Taking it to the other end of the spectrum from the negative to the positive, where do you want to take it so not where do you wish it goes or where do you hope it goes? Where do you want it to go? If you're daydreaming, talk us into the future. A decade, three decades, five decades.
- [39:53]
A
Sure. Look, I'll. I'll talk to you with. I'll start with this year and then I'll go into 10. 10 years, 30 years. This year, three releases will come, including the HNL2. Shortly thereafter will be the introduction of. One of the strategic changes that I made is make an entry level line called Origins. So those will be stainless steel cases, more Solita or simpler Le jury movements, but very fun dial placements and complications. So think like my version of MAD1 within the MBNF universe and hopefully those will be around the $6,000 mark. Moving forward after HNL2, having the gun proper will be going into complications purely. There will be no time only from having the gun proper moving forward, at least for the foreseeable future. That's the main change this year, in 10 years. I really, really, really envision this idealistic atelier in hopefully la, you know, just because I'm here and it's home. But I have this vision of somewhere on Melrose Place where it's very Design district. It's like home of these very boutique niche brands somewhere there or maybe Sunset Plaza. I don't want to be on Rodeo or anywhere near it just because I don't think the brand is like those other brands. I think it belongs in a place that's much more boutique and if, you know, you know. So I love to have an atelier where it's set up, you know, kind of like how Jornes is where you can walk in and have a drink or play pool and, you know, kind of hang out at the same time. I would love to. My ambition is to eventually start bringing things in house. So first I would start is case making. I would like to have like, sort of like this little area of the atelier where you have two, you know, engineers or workshops where they are making the cases for the watches. I would love, love, love, love that the nature of the Javi Nagan line is already going to be exclusive anyway. So we're not talking making hundreds of cases, we're talking 50, 60 cases on each project. So that's my real ambition, is to have a location for people to go and hang out and visit Havinakan. Now, right now I don't think it's a feasible thing because one, those places are very expensive to rent. 2 I don't think the brand is at a place popularity wise or awareness wise for it to even justify something like that. So I think in the next five to 10 years, if I do my job correctly, we can get to that. And I'd like to have my own place. I've been working out of my home office ever since I started and have a bigger retail distribution at that point. So I'm in talks with a couple of people, one in Italy, one in Hong Kong. But they're hard places to break into, especially the Hong Kong market. Italian markets I think is more focused on design, so that's a little more. It's not easy, but it's a little easier. So hopefully sometime this year I get to visit these people and actually have a real conversation and show them the things I'm working on and what the plan for the company is. So, yeah, it's just to expand and in a meaningful way, not just for sake of. All right, we're crushing it. Let's make more and more and more. I need key partners in geographic locations that understand what I'm doing. It means something to these people. So very much like the relationship I had with Hamdan.
- [43:59]
C
If you had your own space, if you had your own boutique or lounge or even just an office where people could come and see and try on the watches. Do you have a concept in mind of what it would look like, how it would be decorated, what kind of feeling you'd like to express through that space?
- [44:14]
A
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I'm. I don't know if it's the Middle Eastern culture, but I am, I am super, super drawn to French Moroccan design. I'm like, I can't get enough of it. Obviously you have to create a space that isn't so alienating. But there was this one architect firm, architecture firm that I. And design firm I found in Dubai who just was making exactly what I had in mind. So, you know, very neutral tones. The facade of the interior of the store would be very soft on the eyes, I guess you can say a lot of wood, a lot of. Just easy to take in, color, tone, um, and. And not inundated with product everywhere. You know, I want it to be sort of like this again within the Middle. Middle Eastern culture is, you know, you accept someone into your home, it's like the whole kitchen comes out. So I want it first and foremost to be a place where people can hang out, breathe, you know, if you need to do some work, you know, go into a little space that we, you know, we, we've got taken care of for you, you know, you need coffee, whiskey, a drink, whatever. So very much like how Journe does it. Because I look at the way Jorn did things as sort of like, wow, every other brand is going to eventually copy this and sure enough they did. So yeah, it would be like that and have some of the watches on display idealistically, if and when we get to that point, have like this soundproof room where the cases are being machined and put together and all that. That would be amazing. That would be, you know, having the artistic and the technical side kind of live in one space. So yeah, I mean, it's just these things are very expensive to do, so it's one thing at a time.
- [46:09]
C
So if people want to obtain one of your watches, how do they go about it?
- [46:13]
A
A lot of people will email through or I get a lot of DMS on Instagram, to be completely honest. But one way or another they find, you know, conversations like this or YouTube videos. Some, a lot of guys from WhatsApp collectors threads will be sharing their Javi Nagan and someone will say, you know, what is this brand? I never heard of it. They'll end up on my, on my site. So a lot of it has been word of mouth how people have got it to me as of, as of, you know, since I started. But yeah, going through the website, emailing in right now, the novelty is the HNO2. So I, I put the renders up of the watch in late August and since then we've sold 35% of the allocation just based off those renders. I don't have the prototypes yet. I don't have anything other than those renders. And people just kind of went crazy and emailed in. And there's another, probably 30 to 40% of collectors that are still waiting to take their classic one delivery. So once that happens, they're like, I'm all in on the HNO2. I'll send the deposit once I have the classic one. So it's, it's crazy that this is happening to me. You know, we're right back on track and things are going in the right direction. But yeah, I would say the website emailing through or even on Instagram, I'm constantly looking at Instagram. So.
- [47:37]
B
So walk us through the HNL2. So yeah, you have 1/3 sold of the 45, I believe you said.
- [47:48]
A
Yeah, yeah. So there's three versions. It is a time only watch again. But at the time we were doing the classic one, the AMT 6600, which is the movement that is inside the classic one and the HNO2. I was asking Guillaume, how many of these can we get the movements themselves? And they said, well, it's capped at 105 for now. So I said, okay. I love the movement so much in the classic one, where I'm like, man, this kind of makes sense to just use this in the 8 channel 2 as well. And let's just call like 2 in one kind of project. So the. I allocated 60 pieces of the movements to the classic one and then 45 pieces to the HNO2. But the HNO2 is, when you look at it, totally different. Its proportions are the same in terms of dimensions. It's 38 millimeters, 47 millimeters lug to lug, 9 millimeters thick. So it's essentially copy as far as fit on the wrist. But I wanted to send like a message to the market that the HN cushion case can be made into a more traditional design. So, you know, instead of the hooded lugs, we have standard lugs. And it was made much, much, much thinner and wearable as opposed to HNO2. I mean, HNO I went full flex into the. The off centered thing. So I reduced the dial much more than the classic one. I wanted it to be a stronger watch on the wrists as opposed to a more traditional watch like the classic one. So I've always loved flinke enamel. So I said, okay, great, let me use this project as the flinke enamel dial watch. So it you have either the blue dial or the reddish orangish ember dial for flinke. And on the outset is sort of like a partially skeletonized brass plate. And then underneath that you have the. The main plate of the AMT 6600. Now, the big change in terms of galvanization and decoration as opposed to the classic ruin is instead of 6n res rose gold for the decoration on the back of the movement, I opted for 3N yellow gold and made the bridges. They're still skeletonized in the same way, but made the bridges in rhodium finishing as opposed to ruthenium finishing on the classic one. So I changed it up a little bit. The angles on the bridges are a little wider than the classic one, so it's much more of a substantial watch. The flunken enamel is a huge. It's the first time I've ever done anything of, you know, meti des art, if you want to call it, you know, and we kind of have went back and forth of is this grand full, because technically you are taking the enamel and putting it in the grand faux oven. So technically it's going through the grand full process. So, you know, the market will make of it what you will. I suppose I. It doesn't really make a difference to me in terms of what people. If people label it a Rand foam enamel dial, it is flink A. So it is a different process of how they make the dial, but it is the grandest watch that I've released thus far. The retail price for the standard is 18,000 and it comes in grade 5 titanium. Either the standard grade 5 titanium or the DLC coated titanium at the time. Hamdan always wants to work on each project, like, have a limited version of each project that I had. At the time I was in Dubai, I was very much like, inspired by. This is the first time I was in Dubai. I was very much inspired by just the desert, you know, the colors. And I would go into these restaurants where all of these neutral tones, all this stuff was just so. To me, it was like, for lack of better words, sexy. So I told myself, I'm like, the next project that we do for Hanan has to be something crazy. And I was talking to Guillaume about something that would be, you know, unique and different. I said, like, let's do something with the case, something different, something that nobody has done yet. And he said. And he sent me a picture of. Of what the watch would later become. It was this oyster powder case. And I told him, like, what the hell is oyster powder, man? Like, I, you know, is this a joke? Like, is this a feasible thing to use for a case? He said, no, no, it's totally feasible. They've tested it. You know, we've talked to the supplier who is in deep France. They essentially recycle oyster shells from the beach, literally, you know, recycling it. Take it, pulverize it, put it under tons of pressure, and then they add what's called PA11. So it's essentially polyurethane. So it is plastic in a sense, but they ionize it and inject plasma into it. And essentially it's unbreakable. So it's very much kind of like how Richard Mille does their carbon, you know, in terms of compressing the carbon and all that. So it follows the same process, just executed differently. And it has this ivory beige ish tone and it even has a sort of fluorescence in it because of the mother of pearl within the. The oyster powder. So I personally have not seen the cases in person yet. I'm very, very Excited to see them. I. We're. We decided that we're going to do seven cases, seven pieces for Hamdan. And after. So as I was getting to ready to board Dubai for Dubai Watch week this year, I released the image. By the time I landed, Hamdana texted me saying, all seven pieces are gone. I'm like, what the hell, man? Like, it's a $22,000 watch. Like, this is like, I. This is crazy to me. Like, I was very insecure, you know, about, like, what do we price this at? Is 22,000 too much? But the thing is, like, I'm using the same margins that I've always used. It's. It's the same thing. It's just. It has to be a $22,000 watch. And then, sure enough, a couple of my people reached out to me and said, and I'm gonna get funny enough. One guy ends up buying the standard HNO2, and then he saw the dune. He's like, okay, I want the dune as well. So I. I told him, like, dude, it's the same watch. It's just a different, different dial. He said, I don't care. I need to have both. So I call Hamdan, and I'm like, can I have two. Two of your allocations? Like, you know, we'll figure something out. So he. Of course, he was very understanding. But now I'm at a point where I keep looking at the images and the renders. I'm like, damn, I need to have one of these. So now I'm kind of like, do I take three allocations and, you know, give him one of my standard allocations and just. It's. It's. This is when I say when we're right back on track, and, you know, I can breathe a little more, at least for the interim. And, you know, thank God it's going in the right way. So HNO2 is still available. The prototypes should be here to me by the end of this month. We are slated to deliver them end of quarter two this year. The movements are moving along perfectly. There's no delays on that. The oyster powder case is the most stressful part of the project because it's just a very complicated process, and these guys are also working with massive, massive manufacturing and industrial companies. So, you know, me asking for seven pieces of a watch case, you know, it's not as important to them, so we have to deal with that. The dials are complicated, so that's taking a lot longer than I applied to it. But again, everybody has been very understanding and hopefully some good news comes and we're able to deliver them in a timely manner. So no, that's the HNO2.
- [56:10]
C
Do you plan on attending any of the major fairs this year and if so, where will people be able to find you and come and see what you're doing?
- [56:18]
A
Yeah, so I'd like to go to Geneva Watch Days. I still have not been to any of the Geneva based shows. After going to Dubai Watch Week, which was my first time going there, I fully realized, wow, man didn't like, this is crazy. The level at which people are doing these events and the amount of people that I met, the amount of people that have seen my brand or seen me in the interviews and all that approached me and it was just this amazing experience. So I fully realized the power of it now. So I'm planning on that. I was also pretty interested in seeing some of the more local or domestic based events here in America. The name is evading me, but it's much more indie driven, it's much smaller in scale. A lot of micro brands, they're based in San Francisco, they host one in Dallas. Watch Time in New York I'd like to really go to because everyone keeps telling me it's an amazing event. So yeah, this year is full frontal for attending these events.
- [57:28]
C
Brilliant. Well, I hope personally that I get to get one of these watches on my wrist very, very soon because I've not had the pleasure and they look extremely well designed and ergonomic and wearable and I love what you're doing with the designs and pushing those boundaries even further. Aaron, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for finding a moment that we could align. I know it's not easy when we're separated by I think nine time z. So we really appreciate it. I think the audience will appreciate it too. You've been a great guest, you've done a lot of the hard work for us and carried us up to an hour's worth of content there. So thank you very much for that investment of time. If any of our audience do have questions for Aaron and they'd like to learn more about Havid Nagan, then please do get in touch via the usual channels. You can do so via herealtime show on Instagram or via the official contact form on the official website www.therealtime.show. we'll be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.