Helping French Watches Sparkle Around The World — Hervé Buffet Of Francéclat

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Real Time Show

Episode: Helping French Watches Sparkle Around The World — Hervé Buffet Of Francéclat

Host: David Gaucher (solo episode)
Guest: Hervé Buffet, Francéclat
Date: January 18, 2026

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Overview

This episode, hosted solo by the Real Time Show’s resident provocateur David Gaucher, explores the mission and inner workings of Francéclat, a French trade organization dedicated to helping French watches, jewelry, and tableware "sparkle" both at home and worldwide. David is joined by Hervé Buffet, a seasoned Francéclat executive, who provides a candid and uniquely French perspective on the state, challenges, and renaissance of the French watch industry, its evolving identity, and the practical efforts to foster growth among French brands.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Francéclat: Mission and Structure

• Francéclat’s Role: A quasi-governmental trade group supporting France’s watches, jewelry, and tableware industries.
• Origins: Founded 60 years ago, mainly to support the French watch industry through collective funding and guidance.
• Funding Model: Financed by a tiny turnover tax (currently 0.19%) on sector companies, pooled and used to benefit all participating brands.
  “We have, how would I say, two dimensions which are very important for us. The first is that we have a collective approach... the second one...” — Hervé Buffet [03:22]
• Dual Identity: Acts as a bridge between French industry and the French state; operates collectively, not as a top-down bureaucracy.

2. Breadth of Activities and Approach

• Support for Three Sectors: Watches, jewelry, and tableware, with both sector-specific and cross-sector initiatives.
• Collective Tools: Creation of high-quality “trend books” that anticipate consumer desires, market studies, advertising campaigns, and events to promote brands.
• Pooling Resources: Economies of scale—e.g., shared market studies, collaborative advertisements, and pooled manufacturing support.

3. The French Watch Industry: Past, Crisis, and Renaissance

• Historical Context:
  • Swiss and French watch industries historically intertwined but experienced the Quartz Crisis differently.
  • Swiss watchmaking survived due to its economic priority & collective bailouts (e.g., the Swatch phenomenon), while the French industry, less dominant, shrank more severely.
  • “The watch industry in Switzerland is a major industry... In France, [it was] one industry among so many... less important.” — Hervé Buffet [08:51]
• Current Renaissance:
  • A new wave of small, often founder-led brands has emerged.
  • Increased energy, creativity, and direct fan engagement are defining the rebirth.
  • Presence of B2C events where enthusiasts can meet founders directly; contrasts with the often corporate nature of Swiss brands.
  • “It’s a new spirit, a more fighting spirit... very lively today.” — Hervé Buffet [09:38]

4. Francéclat’s Visibility: The “Aircraft Carrier” Analogy

• Francéclat prefers to be the “aircraft carrier” beneath the brands (“planes”): present but largely invisible.
• Works behind the scenes to enable brand success but is now taking a more public-facing role to speak for the industry.

5. Helping Brands Export and Grow

• Not Just Exports: Francéclat supports brands at every stage—from concept and manufacturing to domestic and international sales.
• Network Effects: Organizes clubs and meetups to facilitate connections, workshops on export, technology, sustainability, etc.
• Individual & Collective Help:
  “If many people ask the same question, it means there is a topic to get with a solution. And we try to elaborate the solution with the company.” — Hervé Buffet [16:20]

6. Manufacturing and “Made in France”

• Movement Manufacturing: Historically strong, but much of current production—especially movements—is still reliant on imported parts, primarily Swiss.
• Local Initiatives: Resurgence of small firms making or assembling their own movements (e.g., BRM, Trilobe, Pekinier).
• Focus on Product Differentiation:
  “What we can do in France [is] make something nobody was waiting for...” — Hervé Buffet [20:04]

7. French Watchmaking Identity

• Design as a Differentiator: French watches are aesthetically distinctive, often featuring quirky or iconic design elements.
• Comparison with Other Countries:
  • Swiss: Movement-focused, technical perfection.
  • German: Rule-based, Bauhaus-inspired.
  • Japanese: Technical reliability but, in Buffet’s view, less “emotional.”
• French Watches Offer ‘Emotion’:
  “With the French, you can get some emotion... If the founder sells it to you, it’s more emotion.” — Hervé Buffet [22:19]
• Current Focus: Greater attention to men’s watches and to mechanical over quartz pieces.

8. Export Markets for French Watches

• Key Territories: Primary international markets include Europe, the United States, China, and notably Japan.
• Japan as Benchmark:
  • Japanese consumers considered highly discerning; success in Japan indicates international viability.
  • “If your watches are sold in Japan [they] are technically top... If you are good in Japan, you can be good elsewhere.” — Hervé Buffet [28:11]

9. Emergence Program (“Émergence”)

• Startup Accelerator: Selects about 10 promising young brands per cohort and provides a year of targeted coaching and expert mentorship.
• Eligibility: Not “babies” but “children”—brands need to have some sales before joining.
• Goal: Increase the survival and growth rate of French watch startups.
• “The goal is... we know that there are many people on the starting point... but we hope that among all these people, some will perform and can build a new brand.” — Hervé Buffet [29:57]

10. Watchmaking Education in France

• Brain Drain: Many French-trained watchmakers move to Switzerland due to vastly higher wages.
• Retaining Talent: Focus is on growing French companies to offer attractive opportunities and keep talent in-country.
• Cultural Difference: “Small and agile” French companies can offer more hands-on creative roles than large Swiss manufactures.

11. French Industry Support: A Unique Model

• State–Industry Partnership:
  • The only organization of its kind; rooted in French tradition of public–private cooperation (dating back to Colbert’s time).
• Comparison: Germany and other countries lack comparable industry-wide support for watchmaking.
• “As far as I know, we are quite unique... No, it’s very French.” — Hervé Buffet [41:04]

12. Industry Culture: Collaboration v. Competition

• Generational Shift:
  • Older brands were fiercely competitive (“fighting the neighbor”).
  • New generation more open to “co-petition”—collaborative spirit for mutual benefit.
• “The new generation are more open... more in competition than in competition.” — Hervé Buffet [43:31]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Francéclat’s Role:
  “We are here to support the companies, we work for the companies. And we have... two dimensions which are very important for us. The first is that we have a collective approach... The second one...” [03:22] — Hervé Buffet

• On the Brand/Trade Group Relationship:
  "It's just like the aircraft carrier — you see the planes, you're not supposed to see the boat." [13:18] — Hervé Buffet

• On French Watchmaking Renaissance:
  “It’s a new spirit, a more fighting spirit... we start from a very, very low point. The way will be very long, but it’s very lively today.” [09:38] — Hervé Buffet

• On French and Swiss Watchmaking Differences:
  “For me, it’s the design, okay? ... We have to find something different. And obviously it’s something different. A French panache, a French way of life.” [21:00] — Hervé Buffet

• French Emotion vs. Japanese Precision:
  “With the French... you can get some emotion, and if the founder sells it to you, it’s more emotion. Get an experience.” [23:00] — Hervé Buffet

• On Export Success in Japan:
  “If your watches are sold in Japan, [they] are technically top... If you are good in Japan, you can be good elsewhere.” [28:11] — Hervé Buffet

• On the Emergence Program:
  “We take 10 brands, we select them and we help them during a year with coaching, with some presentation, interaction with experts individually, collectively to help them to answer the question. Strategic question, financing question also, market in question.” [29:47] — Hervé Buffet

• On French Industrial Support:
  “As far as I know, we are quite unique... it’s very French. It’s our tradition in France.” [41:04] — Hervé Buffet

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Key Timestamps

• [00:00–01:12] – David introduces the show, the guest, and today's focus.
• [01:44–05:56] – Hervé Buffet’s background, the mission, and funding structure of Francéclat.
• [08:51–12:23] – The French watch industry’s history, impact of the Quartz crisis, and signs of revival.
• [13:18] – The “aircraft carrier” analogy for Francéclat’s role.
• [14:25–15:36] – How Francéclat helps with export and brand growth.
• [18:35–20:19] – The state of French watch manufacturing and movement development.
• [21:00–23:06] – What makes French watches distinct and a comparison with other countries’ watchmaking philosophies.
• [24:19–28:30] – Discussion of key export markets, with special attention to Japan.
• [29:06–33:01] – Details of the “Emergence” accelerator for up-and-coming brands.
• [34:21–36:51] – Watchmaking education in France and the challenge of retaining talent.
• [37:52–40:17] – Differences in scale and opportunity compared to Swiss brands; unique aspects of French industry support.
• [41:04] – No equivalent support structures in other watchmaking nations.
• [43:24–44:07] – Generational changes in industry collaboration.
• [45:23–46:10] – Emphasis on the importance of human connection in the French watch industry.

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Final Thoughts & Resources

Hervé Buffet closed with a call for those interested in French watchmaking — especially entrepreneurs and brand founders — to contact Francéclat’s team (notably Claire, prominent on LinkedIn) and emphasized the centrality of “people, people, people” in the French approach to watches. Francéclat’s new website is launching, and listeners are encouraged to follow the organization and reach out for support.

Host’s Note:
David Gaucher highlighted that anyone interested in French brands could request his curated list and encouraged listeners to experience the vibrancy of French watchmaking firsthand.

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the evolving landscape of French horology, the structures supporting creative industries in France, or the broader dynamics of global watchmaking today.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. This is David Gaucher, the Real Time Show's resident provocateur. And I want to take a moment to thank Rob from the past for what I presume is the intro that he put in. Because that's right, today is a special day. This is the first episode of the Real Time show that I am hosting solo. And it's not only special because of that, it's also special because of the subject matter. And I just want to preface this real quickly by saying two things. The first is that I will never know everything there is to know about watches, but I do know quite a lot and I'm French. And those two facts are important because up until my attendance at the Wheel of Watches show in Paris a couple of months ago, I had never heard of Franc Eclat, which is the group that we're going to find out more about today. Now, Franc Eclat, I should say basically translates to French spark. And as soon as I met them, I was really taken by their mission and I really thought this would be something interesting to share with listeners of the Real Time Show. I want to stop there. I'm not going to steal any more of our guests thunder or perhaps I should say spark, because we have here today Mr. Alvin Buffet from Francais etc. Thank you very much for joining us today.

[B]

Thank you very much. As you can hear, my English is not incredible accent, I assume it. So I hope you will understand me, especially all the people who are not really English, just. Just like no.

[A]

So thank you. Well, thank you very much for your time. I suppose what I really want to start with is could you tell us the basically about the main mission and then perhaps a little bit about how you have come to. To join the group and what you've been doing.

[B]

Okay, so I will start with me.

[A]

As I said, I'm French.

[B]

I'm from Nancy in Lorraine in the far east of France. I was born in 68, a revolutionary year. So maybe it's infusing my mindset. I love my hotel Nancy mainly because it's deeply linked to the Arnvo movement with Emile Gallet, Louis Majorelle. They are the crystal, just like Dome on Baquera. So I was very interested in all what, design, art and culture. So I didn't end up at Francais Eclat by an accident, but it was a kind of determination since a long time. And I worked for Francais Clair since 95, so almost 30 years. It's a big part of my life. And why did I stay? Because it's moving all the time that's what is interesting. We are in an institution. Of course, it could be a little boring, but in fact we are more like a kind of trade organization. We are supporting three creative industries in France. The watch industry, the jewelry industry and the tableware industry. And our motto is to anticipate, to connect and to develop. Sometimes when I drank a glass of whiskey, I say we are just like an aircraft carrier and the planes are the brands which are coming back and forth around us. So that's. We are here to support the companies, we work for the companies. And we have, how would I say, two dimensions which are very important for us. The first is that we have a collective approach and we are, as I say sometime also we are dancing. On the right hand we have the French companies. On the left hand we have the French state. We are in France, we are always deeply connected to the French state. And we try to make something interesting to, to see and to do. And that's the first point, the collective approach, the second one.

[A]

So sorry, if I could just. Just. I apologize for interrupting, but if I could just clarify, then. So franciscle is a trade group.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That has three different sectors. So watches being one of them. Yeah. And this trade group, is it funded by the brands or is it actually the French government that is funding you in this mission?

[B]

Both of them. 60 years ago it was created for the watch industry. The French industry is just like the Swiss industry. They are both in the Joa. There is a border in the middle, but they are the same people on both side of the border. And the people are used to, how do you say in English? They can manage to be both individualists and both collective. If you are French, you know the sources de Morteaux, they have the same people. They were making some agricultural and food in the summer, in the winter, or it's freezing in Joao. And they were making small parts for the watch industry, for eyewear also. That's the point. So they had a deal with the French state to pay a little amount of tax on their turnover. Now it's 0.19% of the large part of their turnover. It makes a common pot and then we spend it to make different things, just like I said and to help them to understand. And we make beautiful Trendbook. That's the main boat of our flotilla. And we've got the watch part. The goal is to try to anticipate what the consumer will wait in a couple of years. And so as the brands can manage to get the good product at the right moment.

[A]

So just to pause because unfortunately, listeners, there's no video here, but I've just been presented with a really, actually quite beautifully done brochure showcasing some of the work that they do. So if you have a chance to meet with or maybe, you know, contact them if they can send you a brochure, it makes quite the coffee table book. So I wanted to just take a moment here. There's a lot of different directions we can go with this. One question I wanted to ask was. So you're. You're working not just with watch brands.

[B]

Do you.

[A]

Do you keep separate the work that you do between the different. The three different sectors, or is there some overlap that you sometimes look at?

[B]

In fact, it depends. One thing we do, we make a kind of smart pooling of our resources, financial resources. Also in the trend book I gave you, it's common for the three sectors because we are trying to exploit the French way of life, the art de viva la francaise. The thing we can do in France, very, very from original point of view and sometimes or some studies also when you make a study, the main cost is to elaborate the question and after you can add 3, 4, 5 questions and very specialists on watches or jewelry or tableware. It's not so expensive. So we made also some economies of scale. And sometimes there are some things that are very specialized, excuse me, for the English, for the watching suite, jewelry or tableware. The markets are different, but if you go beyond for a creation that's. There are some common parts, quite a.

[A]

Lot of of them. Okay, so to lead into the next question, I need to give some context to. To the listeners. So as Elvis said, the Swiss and French watch industries are actually very close. So my last name is Vocer, and I am asked constantly, am I associated with the Vocer manufacturer? I have no idea. So I'm. I don't think there's a conflict here, but perhaps, you know, going back, there are some roots and there's a reason for that. It's because my family's from that part. The key thing to remember though, and I want to get into this more, is that the Swiss watch industry was hurt very badly by the quartz crisis. But I think you could argue that the French one was perhaps hurt even more because the French or the Swiss brands, I'm sorry, recovered a lot of French brands just never did. So what. How does false. From your role, how do you see the French watch industries having first recovered and then how are they doing now? Because there does seem to be a bit of a renaissance around French watchmaking.

[B]

Yeah, we Are faced with a rebirth. Obviously, the Swiss industry suffered and the French industry suffered for the same reasons. But the watch industry in Switzerland is a major industry. So everybody gathered to save what could be saved in France. One industry among so many other. It was less important. And maybe that's why there was a different destiny on the Swedes hide the luck to get the swatch which helped to recover. Obviously Swiss industries enormous. It's very big, much bigger than it was 40 years ago. We are some dwarfs considering the giant the Swiss arm. But just like in the story from David and Goliath, we can maybe manage a way without being smashed by the Swiss industry. We won't harm anybody if we develop the French industry. And for a long time we were sometime somewhere managing kind of extension, soft extension, maintaining what could be maintained. Okay, it was not so. So fun today. What is very interesting, that there are many new companies, many new brands. It's a living movement. There are many French people who do that. I'm sure it's a new spirit, a more fighting spirit, I could say, because I'm French and sometimes we are quite arrogant. We are here to conquer the world, but we start for the very, very low points. The way will be very long, but it's very lively today. What we consider when I look at the watch industry and jewelry industry, for instance, make some comparisons. The luck of the watch industry. There is a big community of fans, deep fans. They can say, oh, look at this hand is longer, shorter, larger. Look at the dial different. Obviously it's very. It's a look for the watch industry because they are very. There are some forums, some influencers just like you, some podcasts. It's very easy to be interested in and to look at the industry what the new product, the new specifics. It's very interesting. So today we are recovering or rebirth and we hope we will develop. Our main goal as a francaic la is to help the companies to grow. So let's hope it will manage. People like to what we can see that there are some new events which are more B2C oriented and A luck for us because for the French brands you can easily as a fan you can meet the founder. They are here, they are happy to see you, they give you some time, they give you all they have but the watch. And when you go to the Swiss brands, you meet a salesman or something. That's not the same experience. So in the world of experience, when we try to meet what's. What's true, who you can trust meeting the people is the best way to promote the product.

[A]

No, I agree with that. And just a bit more context. So I met Francis Klam at, as I said, the Wheel of Watches show. That was at Le Samaritan in Paris. There was a lot of French brands all in one place. I spoke with the founders. It was great. And I could take what you just said in a lot of different directions. The first thing I want to do though, is just so LV kindly brought out some watches. They're on the table in front of me. So we have Pekinier, we have Jacques Bianchi, we have Albertan, we have Si. And we have one more brand which I cannot see. Faub. Okay, so you clearly work with almost every French brand, I think is fair to say, or at least all the ones that are doing well. Although what's interesting is that I had never heard of you prior to going to this show. So do you feel like you're doing a good job if no one's heard of you? Like you're in. In the background? Is that the goal of. Is to be invisible? Basically, yes.

[B]

It's just like the aircraft carrier. You see the planes, you're not supposed to see the boat. So we are trying to project the planes, but the brands. But sometimes we speak about the industry because we have a point of view which is quite different from brand. We. We see everybody, we talk to everybody. We have maybe a larger vision of all the actors and we make some comparison, we make some studies. So it's a new way for us. It's also to speak about the industry because it's more. It's alive. So we can speak of it better than we were just like Jurassic park trying to make them live again. Boys, you'll know. Yeah.

[A]

And so, okay, we've established you're a trade group. You work with brands to support them. When I met your colleague at We Love Watches, it seemed to me like the real focus was obviously helping brands, but really helping brands to be exported outside of France. Is that. Is that true or is the idea just to develop brands? However.

[B]

However you can you exported the final result. The idea is to help them to create new products and to help them to make their well with good manufacturing tools, to sell them in France and sell them abroad. It's the full life of the product and the life of the company. It's not just export. It's many tools, many different tools. With the main goal, again, it's to help them grow in all the directions and to make it safer.

[A]

So. So let's. Let's talk about that for a moment. I was on Instagram this weekend and I saw a an ad that was sent to me talking about the French touch with watches and I realized it was via Perry Match. So you'd obviously partnered with them for an ad campaign. What is it that you do? Okay, let me, let me take a step back. Let's say I'm a French brand, I make watches and I would like to have your help. So what does that process look like of us working together and then what types of things would you do on the back end to help me grow within the French market and then for export after that?

[B]

Yeah, there are two level of answer. One is we promote some collective tool. So we came to you to to show you collective tool. You like it or not, you use it or not, it's your own business, not a problem.

[A]

But.

[B]

And there are some other questions which are not answered via collective tools. So we can meet in the wheel of watches in timeframe or in Dusseldorf or something else. Wind up in New York. We move, we visit the manufacturing plant, we visit the brand, we try to get a network effect. We have a club where we make all the people from the brand French watch industry together together to some place around a topic. So the people know themselves, know us, we know we know them. It's just a boiling pot. So if you a question, you ask us if we can answer the question, we do it. If many people ask the same question, it means there is a topic to get with a solution. And we try to elaborate the solution with the company. We don't are in our office and trying to manage from the top. We are really deeply rooted in the industry and we try to make something more bottom up. So we make some workshop with the brand. We make workshop for export. We make some workshop from technical points for the sustainability or something like that or the artificial intelligence and impact on creation also. So we have very different tools in our hands to play with. If we get a new tool, we develop it. If you got the money. Yeah, and so far we've got the money.

[A]

Okay, so it sounds like you can help brands with advertising, you can help with manufacturing, you can help with distribution and you basically leverage the fact that you're a collective and so you can get some economies of scale in that. Okay.

[B]

And we have got a new program which whose name is Emergence. There is not an English word for it.

[A]

So. So there is and we're going to get to that. But you went in a very interesting direction in terms of manufacturing. So France Had a, a large watch manufacturing base prior to the quartz crisis. I mean, I think Lorsa was French. Felsa maybe as well, was French as well, and then numerous others. And some of them have been brought back, some of them not. And I'll be very honest that even though I think this is changing, a lot of French brands currently on the market today will be assembled in France, usually in. Or something like that, but they'll use imported movements. Even though I think there's been a little bit of a push to get more French manufacturing on the movement side. So is this something that you're seeing as well? And can you speak to manufacturing, the manufacturing base generally in France for. For some of these French brands?

[B]

Yeah, we still have a stronger manufacturing, manufacturing part working for the Swiss industry with high prices. That's a business model which is not okay today for the French brands which are smaller, they take small batch. It's a different way to do it and the price are not so high as the Swiss industry. There is a kind of adaptation to make maybe to try to find new solutions today for the movement. What we see, it's a move. We know the way is in front of us. We try to push it from different ways. And we have several tests or several initiatives which are on the way. Maybe you know, Bernard Echel manufacturer brm, they are making their own movements very special, inspired from the motor racing. You have Trilogma, which is making a different kind of movement, a French movement. You've got all the parts in the small square and some big void around.

[A]

So we actually, we actually spoke with them at Geneva Watch days. And so listeners, if you haven't checked that out, we have the YouTube video where we saw their latest watch. It was phenomenal. I mean, I turned it around and both Rob and I were shocked because it, it looks. Well, first of all, it looks like high horology. And second, it looks very different. Yeah, very different.

[B]

That's what we can do in France to make something, nothing. Nobody was waiting for this kind of product. That's the way we, we can do things on. Considering we are small, it's more manageable for us to try new things on the big groups.

[A]

So maybe, I don't know if it's the right time to ask you, but I do want to talk about what makes French watchmaking different because today if I'm a consumer, I can look at certainly Swiss watches, I can look at German watches, Japan obviously as well, England or, I'm sorry, I should say Britain really is having a revival as well, so what is it? And I should preface this by saying that French design is known to be iconic, but a little strange, right? Like the Citroen ds, the. The Hafa airplane, you know, Peugeot cars, all that. It's very French. So does that show up in a French watch? And if it's something else, what is it that makes a French watch different from any other watch that I could buy on the market?

[B]

For me, it's the design, okay? It's very different. If you look at this one, which was made, our creation director, he also designed the tambour from Fort Vuitton. And it's very different. You can assemble it without any tool, and it's smart. And let's focus on the movement. From my opera, from my point of view, the Swiss industry, they are very focused on the movement, mechanical movement. They make incredible things for the movement. Maybe sometimes the case is less interesting. So we have an opportunity. We are weaker on the movement. Of course, we know it, we work on it, but it's a long way ago, long way in front of us to be comparable to the Swiss parts. So we have to find something different. And obviously it's something different. A French panache, a French way of life, something different. If you see the German industry, there are some rules, just like some Swiss with the importance of the movement, Movement from a glasswitter. And you. And you have some who remember that the design was invented in. In Germany with the Bauhaus, you've got nomos. I like B. I like nomos. They make beautiful dials. For me, it's incredibly the best dials I. I could like in the Japanese movement. Japanese, the. For me, the theme, they win the war during the 60s around the Quartz movement, but they are somehow prisoner of the directory because today they have tools, watch tools, which are very reliable. Okay. With the technology, Nothing to say there is no emotion. With the French. French, you can get some emotion, and if the founder sells it to you, it's more emotion. Get an experience.

[A]

Yeah. So I think one of the things that we like about our podcast is that we. We tend to not hold back with opinions. And I think that what you just said is great because it's an opinion. You might get some people who enjoy Grand Seikos who disagree, but.

[B]

Okay, we can discuss about it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I can be a little provocative.

[A]

You know, I know this is great. This is what we like. This is. Yeah, this is great. And I would say just on the movement side. So Pekinye actually does make their own movements and they have the Calibre initial which I think is going to be hopefully sold to other brands and Francis Bush I think is going to get started up soon as well. So yeah, hopefully even though now the, the focus isn't so much on the movements, I think that will change over time and who knows, who knows where we are in 10 or 15 years. So just going back to exports and we mentioned some other countries that make watches. I just want to talk about countries that buy French watches because what I found is that for French products there's always a very loyal internal market. Like I'm French and I love French watches, I love French cars and I would, to me that's important. I would prioritize that. But I also want to understand who buys French watches outside of France. So could you share a bit more about what some of the main export markets are for some of these products?

[B]

It's a good question, but I'm not sure I've got the right answer. So precise as you, as you want. What I can see from my years in Francais CAS some 20 years ago, the French watch, they were made for women. There was a collective movement saying in France we are very good with fashion so we should make some watches which are connected to fashion. So moving all the time. Now we are some watches which are more man oriented on just like some Swiss brown with the search for an iconic, just like the new port for it's a iconic piece or the, the Morea for Pekinier just like we have the iconic pieces for some Swiss brand. So there is a big, big, big move from me from woman to man and from cross movement to mechanical movement. It's a very, it's a difference I can see for the French industry. So today for me, from my point of view, the, the Frenchman, they talk to boys.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So most, so mostly focused on, on men. Now from women, what about countries? And I guess I'm leading a little bit because I'll pick Pekinye for an example. They have had an up and down history and a couple years ago I just wanted to look at what their distribution looked like and I was surprised to find that of course they had a lot of points of sale in France but Japan was another country where they had a lot of sales and every time I talk to some of these smaller brands, Japan just comes up a lot because it's a country full of connoisseurs. So is that a country where French watches are sold now? And if it's not the main export market, is it somewhere else? Is it the US Is it Latin America? I mean, where is it that you found that these French brands have had success exporting their products?

[B]

You find the French watch easier in Europe. You can find them in the United States. That's the attraction today. Everybody is looking at the customs because it's a big market and very dynamic, modern in China and in Japan. There was a special story for Pekinier with Japan. He was a jumper with a horse jumper. Very French, very elegant, very straight. It was Emile Pekinier and the Japanese loved him. So he had invented the influence part of the job. Thirty years ago, when he went to Japan, he sold the watches. When he was not in Japan, they were not sold. So easier he had to show him. People wanted to see the founder, to see the French founder. The French, the personal incarnation of the brand, of the value. What was very good for the company, but also a weakness because when you sold the brand, it was quite different. As you said, it was some shaking point for the brand.

[A]

Interesting. I think that someone in Japan actually made a manga about Feed du Foul. So it's the same kind of thing. Like they have this attachment to the craftsperson.

[B]

Yeah. On the Japanese market is also very known from a kind of test market. If your watches are sold in Japan are technically top.

[A]

Interesting, interesting.

[B]

They are very. The craftsmanship is traditional Japan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They test your product and if it's not good, you won't be good anywhere. If you are good in Japan, you can be good elsewhere. It's a harder part of the world market. Very. I don't know the English word.

[A]

Very exigent and very strict. Yeah, very strict.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, interesting. So it's like the. The Jay Z song says, if you can make it in New York, you can make it anywhere. But it watches. If you make it in Japan, you can make it Interesting. So I want to switch gears again. Maybe talk about some of the things that we've. We've touched on. And I'm trying to think of like the. The. The way to go about this. So let's talk about this image program first, because I think the next set of questions is going to come from that. So in our jobs in French would just transition, translate in English to emergence, like to a breakout. So, yeah, tell us about this. What is this program within.

[B]

First of all, we saw since 10 years that there were some new brands emerging everywhere. Some initiative in dual initiative or maybe two friends or something like that. And we saw them always numerous and we say, oh, something is moving. And we studied this move to see who was in the business or not. And we asked them what were their need. We made a very Some workshop with 200 companies to know how on the emerging brand. What are you need? How can. Can we help you? And emergence program is the answer to the question and the needs. We've got an accelerator. We take 10 brands, we select them and we help them during a year with coaching, with some presentation, interaction with experts individually, collectively to help them to answer the question. Strategic question, financing, financing question also market in question. It depends. Each one has his own map and the accelerator has his global map. And it's quite new. We are hiring the third promotion and if there are some brand, French brands listening, you can, you can make a call. Yeah, I will give you my phone number or you can find me on LinkedIn. So the goal is, we know that there are many people on the starting point, starting line, many will die, don't be a dreamer. But we hope that among all these people, some will perform and can build a new brand. If you look at some other example, Richard Mille, which is known as a Swiss brand, in fact it's a French guy and he came to life very quickly because if he found his way, he made something very different from others. That's nice way. And it's among today the 10 brands which are worth more than 1 billion.

[A]

Oh, it's incredible. People must have looked at him like he was crazy when he came up with the idea. I mean watch his costing 2,300,000 Euros. But now it's like you said, it's an amazing success story. So a couple questions on that. These companies that you select for every call it a graduating class, is everyone starting from zero or are they just starting from different points?

[B]

No, we, we don't take the babies, we take the child. They must have some turnover, small turnover, but a minimal turnover. So it means they must have some product to sell. They must have met a kind of market. Some clients are interested. Which one? Not the babies, the beginners, not the babies.

[A]

And reserved presumably to French companies. So French brands wanting to start up. And so a lot of people listen to our show because they want to start a brand. Now obviously they could be outside of France, but I do want to understand. So they say in the restaurant business, it's some absurdly low number of restaurants that actually make and past the first year. So in your experience, what percentage of people who have made it to sales, which is already a big step, what percentage of those brands will actually make it to the next one versus will die off?

[B]

We don't have the figure out noise Too young a program to know. I would like to tell you in couple of the come back and we have a discussion. For now we can't say it's hard to know but starting a company today is quite easier. You've got Instagram or TikTok or both of them. You've got some platform for the finance Kickstarter and also you've got a community of fans. People can buy your new product just because it looks nice on you. You've got a primary market, you've got a secondary market today what we can hear is that the secondary market sometimes is bigger than the primary market. And you see people like Rolex are trying to organize it with the pre loved pre owned pre something program to get a certification. That's a good product. So but it's very special. The watch industry in the watch markets very rich.

[A]

Yeah. So we've talked about the emergence program. It's kind of a startup incubator for. For watch brands. I really want to talk about some specific aspects of. Of French watchmaking now. Like really the. Yeah. The business side of it. So going through your website, the false website, there is a.

[B]

The old one, the.

[A]

Okay, the old.

[B]

The new one is in January.

[A]

Perfect. All right.

[B]

Well a little bit better. Much better.

[A]

That's great because so for the listeners we're recording this in December. It's probably airing January, February. So go check out that new website. On the one that I looked at there was something which was called the commission. So in French this translates to basically training and knowledge. What was the, the reason behind this creation and what does that say about French watchmaking education? Because of course in Switzerland we know there are plenty of schools you can go to there. Can you describe what the educational landscape is in France for watchmaking and perhaps what you'd like to see it be.

[B]

In the future today, what we know. We know a couple of things. There are many French people in the Swiss watching the suite you spoke about. Philippe Dufour sounds French. And we know that many people are training in France and then they look for opportunities normal. And when they go to Switzerland, big companies, better salaries, of course they make this choice. From my point of view, the trouble is not the training to get some opportunities for the people to stay in France. And that's why also we made the emergence all this effort to help the companies to develop. If they are bigger, they will hire more people. So it's a win win movement and it's starting today to try to get collective and strategic on what to think together, what we want in five years and 10 years. And we make with the companies, with the professional organization, we try to gather all the people to determine what we want collectively to do. So once again come in a few years and I hope I will say, oh, today 20% of people stay in France. Today one people.

[A]

Well, the promotion and, and for. And for the, the listeners, I should say when, when you hear that there's a difference in salaries between France and Switzerland. It's, it's enormous. It could be five or six times the, the difference. So then I guess my question to, to you every would be what is it that makes someone decide? Because watchmaking education is difficult. It's, it's a, it's a science. It's also an art. So you have to be worker who's very well rounded, so you've acquired all of these skills. What is it that makes someone want to start their career or continue their career in France versus going to Switzerland with, with some of the more warm embrace.

[B]

It's a little early to tell you something very objective, so I will tell my point of view. What I think is that some people who go to Switzerland, they go in big companies and you must like big companies. It's different way of working. It's a hierarchy. If you want to create. It's not the same way if you stay in France in smaller brands, smaller companies, maybe you will get some better opportunities to make something just like you. For me, it's an opportunity today. An opportunity today it's to offer something the Swiss brand can't offer. We are small, they are big. There are drawbacks being small or big, but there are also some advantage for us from being small and agile. We can offer something very different from a big, big, big company, this big headquarter. Different way of making your job.

[A]

Yeah. And what would you say? I'm just sort of thinking. So to me, and I could be wrong here. Penier is probably the best known simply because they have their own movements. Even then they're only one manufacturer on a small place. What's the, what's the biggest French brand? Do you know off the top of your head, like the, the biggest French brand in terms of, of sales.

[B]

What, what would that be in terms of sales? You've got Arbol, you've got Leap. Leap as well. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You've got Y, which is also making its own movement. That's four historical actors. And after you've got people like Baltic, very discreet, but more powerful than many can imagine. But they are still, small and medium business are not big companies.

[A]

I was going to say a company like Yema or Leap, for example, both of them go back decades. They're not Omega, they're not Cartier or anything like that. I mean, they're relatively small. Okay. And so. And so to recap, I suppose if you were a young watchmaker listening to us here, the advantage would be that you can perhaps. No one's promising anything here, obviously, but you're going to have more influence on what you want to do at some place like a Leap or a Pekinier than you would at an Omega or at Blancpain. Because you're kind of set to what. What they tell you to do.

[B]

Essentially, yes, if you want to. To have your own business and to create a new brand. What we can see with emergence, it's entrepreneurship. You are alone. What we offer you also is not to be alone. I'm not a Liverpool fan, but you will never walk alone. It's the same thing for us. We can gather and support you in different ways at a different moment of your life. That's what we offer to you also. That's very different. Do you find countries? Some people from other countries sometimes. Oh, you are lucky to get that. Claire, which is director for the exportation part of the land the organization. She was interviewed by the New York Times a couple of days ago and they were very surprised that there is a trade organization like us financed by a tax on all what we make to. To help the company to grow. Of course, we are quite special.

[A]

We are French.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So listeners, I love this because you never want to introduce stereotypes, but this is a fantastically French interview and I love, I love what. What Elvis saying and actually I second that. To me, what was so surprising was that there was this. It shouldn't be surprising because France has always been about supporting its industries and especially I think we'll say creative ones because that's. I think what France is very well known for is. Is, you know, food, aldevivre, I mean, all of that stuff. Right. Are you aware or. I mean, you probably are, but are there any other countries that have this level of involvement in their watchmaking? I mean, is Germany doing the same thing? Does Japan do the same thing? Or is France quite unique in their mission of helping, of helping watchmakers?

[B]

Well, as far as I know, we are quite unique. In Germany there was something after the reunification when Glashwitte had a rebirth with the Swiss help. It was a special moment in history in East Germany. If you don't know where Glasswater is near Dresden. So very far in the east of the actual current Germany. There is not something similar even in China or in Japan. No, it's very French. It's our tradition in France. We had the Finance Minister Colbert who invented what is neither side of our. And so the. The very specific way of making business in France with the company the private capital on the. On the French state. So it's a part of our history.

[A]

Yeah yeah. I mean we can obviously the listeners. We could take this in a lot of different directions but I just one.

[B]

Thing I wanted to add it. We talk about the crisis for the quartz movement in the seventies in Switzerland today you've got the Swatch Group. The Swatch Group was born from all the old parts. We were in trouble in the 70s and the magic of their boss was to make something efficient from different parts being not so in good health. And the answer was different. We had an answer in France with help of the government and there was a different way of doing the things in Switzerland with the help of the bank and the Canton because it was a major industry. They were deeply involved in this. On the truth the. The past who's made the.

[A]

The. Yeah, no, I. I totally agree and I. I think as you said it's a different way of achieving. Achieving results. Do you find just to. To wrap this up a couple more questions. Given that the French industry watch industry is we'll call it a rebirth. Is there company. Is there competition between all the brands that you work with or is everyone willing to work together to an extent to make sure that everyone does better.

[B]

One be. Maybe I will lose some friends in the for watch industry but the new new generation are more open.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They are more in what we call competition than in competition. The older generation were fighting once again the neighbor the new generation they can cooperate. Of course they are competitors. So we're fighting some. Some markets on. Okay. It's a very different way to. To.

[A]

To work.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And just going back final two questions here from the program. Are there any stories that really really had an amazing success that have done really well since they. They did the program.

[B]

The program is very young so we don't have yet success. But the people the.

[A]

The.

[B]

The woman who. Who is leading this program his name is Priscilla Jocoult she did that for the fashion industry for instance Simon Jacquemus. So we hope to have the similar way as Simon Port Jacquemus where he know where he was 20 years ago or 10 years ago. We hope one day we can have the same promise for our program to say, remember it was 10 years ago, he was in, in the accelerator, quite small, asking for dry noise in good health.

[A]

Yeah. So for listeners of the show, if you don't follow fashion, Jacques is a big, big name, big name. So I would love for a French watch brand to have that kind of success because the man and the brand today are highly influential. So just to wrap this up, we are at the three quarter of an hour mark. Is there anything, so you've told us about the new website coming out. That's great. Is there anything else that you would like to know or that you would like listeners rather to know about and where can they go to find out more? If they want to just learn about you or if they want to participate some of your, your programs they can reach Claire.

[B]

Claire is very famous on LinkedIn. I spoke about her a couple of months ago. And one thing I would say when we talk about the retail, everybody says there are three points to know. Location, location, location for the watch industry today. For the French part I will say people, people, people. That's the main point. We have a good team and they are nice people trying to make some new brands or to make bigger brands. That's the personal feeling. The human part of the job is very important for us. And as I say, when you go to some B2C event, you can meet the founder. That's the point. Connection people to people.

[A]

Yeah, I think that makes total sense. And for anyone listening, I actually keep a list of all the French brands that I hear about. So if anyone wants that send me an email and I will be happily send it to you because I think the more people are buying French watches, the happier the world can be. I think so. Thank you very much Elvis for joining us. This has been an absolute pleasure and I really hope listeners of the Realtime show have enjoyed this and I will turn it back over to Rob for the outro and I really look forward to speaking with all of you maybe on some more solopods about French watches. Thanks so much and take care and au revoir everyone. Sam.