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- [00:01]
A
Hi and hello, watch fans, and welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Nudds. Today I am joined by the illustrious head designer of fierce watch company, Lee Yuen Repati, who's just made it home after an exhausting and roasting week in Geneva alongside, obviously Alon and I and all the rest of the watch industry players. Lee, how are you? Glad to be home?
- [00:24]
B
I'm very glad to be home. And yeah, not sweating anymore.
- [00:28]
A
Yeah, I am jealous. I've been sweating constantly since because the temperature I expected to find in Dresden is actually akin to that in Geneva. So can't wait to dive into an ice bath or head off back to the Arctic or even back to Manchester for a little bit to cool down. But right now we have to keep going. Of course, we have to hit the ground running. And from the sounds of it, there's been no real rest for you either. What are you working on right now that's kept you busy?
- [00:51]
B
So right now we're trying to finalize the last steps before a couple launches that we have this month. Now, I keep forgetting that it's September and then there's always. I mean, even before we headed home from Geneva, I was having design meetings in the hotel lobby with Nicholas. And so it was a break from a party right into. Right into the hard work.
- [01:14]
A
I mean, it's hard work traveling as well. Right. I know not everybody would believe that if your job requires you to be in the same place for long stretches of time, but when you're on the road bouncing around the world, it become quite draining. How do you find it as a designer who obviously is looking for inspiration in the world out there, but also has to at some point, take some time to themselves to chill out, digest it all, and then make something from it?
- [01:39]
B
Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's just taking a little bit of a walk or isolating yourself, and then other times, I mean, that can then make. When you're thrust into a very social or very kind of hyperactive environment like one of these watch shows, that can make you ready to experience the contrast of the benefits of isolation. So I happen to work remotely. That gives me the time alone to be very focused in on whatever the task at hand is. And the flip side of that is when I get to experience going to a trade show or a fair or something like that, I'm a little bit more open to sponge in all of the, all of the meetings, influences, inspirations that can happen at those, at those events.
- [02:28]
A
So over the last week, I guess you've met a lot of people from a lot of different brands and maybe had a chance to see a few watches. Of course you're busy, so I guess you weren't going around all of the events at the fair to see the pieces intentionally all the time, but you must have come across some stuff. Is there anything that really impressed you that you saw while you were there or any lessons that you might have learned that we could share on air?
- [02:50]
B
So it was, I think one of the highlights for myself was seeing the Ming team. I've been a friend of the brand for. For a few years now, doing some work with them a few years ago, but we. We'd only really Met once in 2019 in London, and then all of the relations started after that. So being able to see Bing and Praneeth and the rest of the team there and of course the watches that they brought along was. Was really a nice experience that I had. Always a highlight at any one of these shows is going to the MB&F suite in the Beau Rivage. And the clock that they've done with Le Pey is just mind blowing.
- [03:32]
A
It is incredible, isn't it? I'd love to see how you could translate some of the design elements of that rather steampunk ish clock to a Fears watch. We'll get onto that later maybe, because I'm sure everybody's interested to know what is coming next rather than what fever dream I might like to see on my wrist. First things first. You're a designer. You are Chinese, Dutch, Canadian. So an incredible background. Tell us what your early life was like. Where did you grow up, what influences were you exposed to? And how did you find your way into the watch industry?
- [04:05]
B
All right, so I grew up born. Grew up in Canada originally from the middle of the country, but moved fairly early on to the east coast to Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. And my childhood was, I would say, a mix of studying classical music and then being involved more and more into the arts. So both my parents are in the arts. They teach drawing and metalsmithing jewelry respectively. So I would say that my childhood was pretty full of creative influences and outputs. And then when it came time to go into university to get my proper education, it was clear at that point that I was more so on the creative art side rather than the classical music side. So that's why I gave up the many, many hours of practicing violin. But I went into a design program just to study all facets of design. That's what the program at the university offered. And it was at that time that while I was interested in Overall kind of 3D design or industrial design, that watches first came on my radar. And the interest started with seeing an Urbur in a magazine, and it was actually my mom that showed that to me. And from there I fell down the rabbit hole and started incorporating watches into more of my school projects and more of my extracurricular projects. And then from there on out, it was just that that's. I knew it. I had to get some kind of work or creative practice involving watches into my life.
- [05:48]
A
So how did you first encounter Nicholas? Because, I mean, you seem to have fallen on your feet in a small team that clearly loves you as a. As a friend and a colleague, but also affords you a great deal of power. I don't know if you see it like that, but agency, let's say, to really flex your creative muscles. So what was that first meeting like? It was.
- [06:12]
B
It was interesting. So I came over to the UK to do a master's degree in typeface design. That was one of the. One of the avenues that I saw into the watch world. And I happened to focus that degree on studying the typography of watches and clocks. And once I was finished that, in 2018, I made a post on Instagram about, you know, about my studies, essentially. And I believe this is what Nicholas had seen. I think we were following each other mutually. And he said, hey, I see that you're moving to London. I'd love to meet and just chat about typography. So that was definitely a shared interest for both of us. And we sat down for a quick coffee at the last salon QP in 2018. And that's where the initial introduction happened. And then a few months later, I'd done a illustration that he commissioned. And then a few months after that, I got an email saying, hey, I. I'm thinking about designing some new numerals for Fears Watch and I'd like you to be involved. And so that meant at that time the company was still based in Canterbury. So I trekked out there, looked at the archive, and together we kind of formulated what would become what we call the Edwin numerals. And these made their appearance on the Brunswick Copper Salmon, and they've kind of been in the collection ever since. So that. That was my real entrance into Fears. First it was just a coffee, then a dry, and then a set of numerals. And it's grown a lot since then.
- [07:57]
A
When you were studying the typography of clocks and watches for Your studies, did you have a particular favorite designer or some models that really stuck with you? And if so, what was it about them that you really enjoyed?
- [08:12]
B
That's a. That's an interesting question. So my entry into watch typography really focused a lot on the styles that you see on mid, mid 20th century watches. That's kind of like the golden age of vintage watches. And for the most part, that involves what a lot of people would call sans serif letters and typography. And what you'll find is on a lot of those dials, they actually have tiny little wedges or microservices at the ends of the strokes of the numerals or letters, which improves the print appearance of the numeral. And discovering some of these little nuances was the first point when I really started getting interested and passionate about it. What you find is there aren't a lot of necessarily named designers from that era. You'll have dial makers like the Stern Stern dial makers or Singer dial makers or Weber and Barrel from Germany. And you have the factories making the dials. Not so much individuals who are known for making specific styles, individuals like, you know, Gerald Genta, they tend to be known more for the holistic watch design of the case, plus the dial, plus the hands.
- [09:31]
A
I'm really interested in these micro serifs. What is it about adding those that improves the print appearance of a type? Is it some kind of optical illusion that makes it look like a more natural hard end? Or does the brain interpret it as if there is actually a serif there anyway?
- [09:49]
B
So it is just an optical fix. What you find with printing, and it gets more extreme at printing out the tiny, tiny, small sizes of numerals on dials, is if you just have a flat end to a stroke, the ink will pull away from the corners of those of that end. And what you see is then a kind of stroke with a bit of a rounded end. So if you think of, you know, most people know Arial Round, or dare I mention it, Comic Sans, those are examples of typefaces that have rounded stroke ends. And if you even print something like Helvetica or any other sans serif font or typeface at an extremely small size, the ink will pull away from the quarters, making it look a bit rounded. So to counteract that and make it look like you have your numerals or your letter forms with nice square stroke ends, you need to compensate and add these little wedges, wedge serifs that allow the ink to stay in those corners. And then when you see it, you know, without a loop, if you're just looking at your watch, then you have the appearance of very sharp defined letter forms.
- [11:08]
A
That is an incredible answer and it was exactly what I was hoping the case was. When you said it, I thought, oh, I wonder if it's something to do with the way that the ink will automatically like not by a capillary action, but similar, like just ball up, like stand up on its own away from the intended edge. To that end, have you experimented with fears with different types of ink for printing? I'm asking because I know that an ordain with their enamel dials, they struggled very, very badly early on with ink not staying in place or not having a defined edge because the traditional inks that most watchmakers would use for dial printing, they found on a flux surface, having finished and polished the enamel dial were too, too fluid, not stiff enough. And so they actually use a whiskey bottle ink, which is very thick and stands up perfectly and provides this defined edge. Have you experimented with different types of inks themselves during the printing process?
- [12:10]
B
I haven't personally experimented, but this is where it comes into play with a good relation that we have with our dial maker who can, I mean, they have the full knowledge of how inks and pigments are going to stick or appear on a dial surface. And basically the relation is we work with them to test out the best combination. And sometimes that involves printing the logo or printing the marking multiple times to build up this surface of ink that gives nice dimensionality. Other times we want it very flat to the, to the dial. So a different mix of ink might need, need to be, might need to be used for that. We haven't really done, you know, apart from the first generation of the enamel Brunswick, which I wasn't really a part of, that was before my time at Fures. We haven't really done any subsequent dials that use, I would say, non traditional or at least uncommon dial materials. So most of ours are, you know, galvanic or painted dials. And those are things that we know that a whole range of different inks or pigments can stick to without any issue.
- [13:22]
A
So we talk about storytelling in watchmaking all the time, especially when it comes to brand building and the importance of brand communication. How do you feature that in the design of typography? How do you get a character to come through in your typography? Do you look at similar examples of the watches that you're making and the kinds of typography that have worked or not worked so well with them in the past or do you start from a different position? Do you start with like a more emotional sense of what this watch needs to evoke?
- [13:55]
B
It's a lot of looking at tradition, especially where fears is involved. So what I tend to start with is looking at the watch as a whole. And if this watch is conforming to a more classical or what we would consider a more kind of typical traditional watch, I will then look back to points in history of similar designs and look at examples, you know, where typography is concerned, of how it's handled. And this, this then allows me to take certain aspects of that. And the result is that the watch that's made now, which is a, you know, it's a thoroughly contemporary piece, still feels like it belongs in this larger, you know, story or pantheon of watches that have a lineage. And there are definitely visual aspects to the design that you can pull. For instance, a lot of typography and watches will have a flat top four. That's something that's very, I would say, unique to watch typography. And you'll find on piers watches now where there are sans serif letters, almost are letters and numerals, there are almost always a flat top for the overall skeleton of the numerals. And letter forms follow similar skeletons that you can find on mid century watches. That, and that is how we kind of evoke a balance of the visual design with a, in a contemporary watch, making it still feel like it has a whole lineage that's come before it.
- [15:41]
A
Why is it that the number four of all the numbers is so controversial and disgusting watchmaking? Because it's not just the flat top four or, or otherwise, it's also the Roman numeral four, like the clockmakers four to use four lines instead of iv. Why is it that that one number. And I totally understand if you don't have an answer for me because it's really more of a rhetorical question, but why is four always a discussion?
- [16:08]
B
It's very funny, I think in terms of the Roman numeral forms, the studies that I've done on it, some people have said that, oh, it's because the Romans or the clockmakers who used the numerals didn't want to use a subtractive method, which is the iv. And then the, I would say more visually obvious answer is it's just there to balance out the very wide numeral of the 8, which is V with three eyes following it. So that gives some balance onto the dial, which I can certainly get behind in terms of the Western Arabic 4. It's just a weirdly constructed character. It's this essentially a cross with a diagonal section, whereas the other numerals are, you know, usually follow a central spine or they have some symmetry to them. The four is just a bit of a freak. And this comes into designing it like the numeral. If you were to just look at the actual width dimension usually has to be a lot wider than all of the other characters, which is really annoying when you're trying to think of something that is fitting within a set. But that's just ultimately, the visual. The eye determines how attractive a letterform is. So you can't always just follow math to say, I want all of my characters to be the same exact width. It has to be a cohesive visual width rather than a mathematical one.
- [17:34]
A
What an incredible answer to a question I wasn't sure was going to sire a single comment. That's absolutely brilliant. I really like the explanation of the clockmakers four being used to balance out the visual weight of an 8, which I think is even more important on a clock maybe than a watch, because of how the eye leads to a watch. You know, the day is normally at 3:00 because it's the first part of the watch that you see as it pokes out from beneath the cough. At least that's what people tend to say is the reason for it being most commonly positioned there. But the four, funnily enough, is maybe one of the first, maybe after the five numbers that your eyes would hit. I mean, as your watch comes out of your cuff, if it has a date particularly, you don't have a three. So the first number you'd see, because it's the closest one to you on that side, is the four. So perhaps it has even more significance than we give it credit for. And the answer, that the 4 often needs to be actually wider to give it the same visual weight as other numerals is fascinating. Not something I knew at all. So thank you for sharing that. I'm sure the community will be very interested and everybody will be getting their micrometers out and busting their crystals off their watches to have a look and see exactly if that's the case on their watches. You remind me, reminded me immediately of one of the greatest typographies I've seen in watchmaking in recent years. Certainly one of the most ambitious is the Typography of the Mirage by Sylvain Berneron. I'm sure you're aware of it, and I don't know if you'd seen the early sketches that he used to put on Instagram before the watch itself was complete of his working process. What do you think of that? Is it something you like or do you find it slightly jarring? And just tell us which other typographies in the industry, which brands you respect and you think are doing something good for that field.
- [19:24]
B
So the burner on it is a really interesting example because he's done something and I have a counterexample or another example which features a very different style of typography with some similar root thinking in that he's using these ratios to try and come up with the skeleton, the form of the numeral. And the theory is that that balance of using those ratios makes for an attractive numeral form or, you know, piece of typography, or in Berneron's case, you know, a watch as a whole. I was very sad that the last week I couldn't really see one in person. I mean, he was back to back with meetings. So I don't take anything from it. But, you know, it's a very interesting watch. I think that my own feeling is using these ratios to develop the kind of root or the skeleton of a letterform is a very interesting practice. But as I was mentioning before, the eye is the ultimate judge. And there are certain things that when you follow mathematic ratio rules to the T, you actually start to deviate from what the I expects. And that can create two things. It can create something that is very distracting or it can create something that's thought provoking. And in terms of the distracting side of that, that's an issue that a lot of type designers face is when the letterform becomes a distraction, you notice it rather than being able to read the word or if it's on the dial of a watch, you know, see what the numeral is. And that then becomes an issue because you get caught up on the shape of it rather than just allowing the information that it's trying to communicate you to flow, you know, directly into your brain. Another example of a company that's used these ratios to design typography is Charles Frodgeham. In the. In their Western Arabic numerals, they used, I think, the same theory of using golden ratio to design the numerals. And what you find are there are some differences in small parts of the construction of the numerals. And I've spoken to Richard Stenning from Fraudium about this that start to deviate from what you might expect to see. And in my view, it's a very interesting set of numerals. But had I been part of that process, I probably would have deviated from those rules at a certain point to follow the more unspoken rules of typography in that something might need to be adjusted for the eye. I have no idea in Sylvain's case for Berneron whether he deviated a little bit. I think the numerals are very interesting. The other side of it is that those numerals are very much leading away from your traditional watch typography. And I actually think that's a good thing. I think for a watch like that or any other avant garde design, you don't necessarily need to use very traditional watch type styles on there. You can, you can really spread your wings and explore. That's actually something we. You mentioned Anne Ordain before. I think that them and the sister company Poland have had very, very fresh examples of typography that's been really wonderful to see in the watch world because it's something that is very much planted in the present and looking forward, which allows for a greater diversity of styles for us to enjoy into the future.
- [23:04]
A
How interesting. I mean, both British watch companies there, Ann Ardain and you guys, but also Progen as well, based in the uk. Do you think that the British brands are doing perhaps more than one would expect, given the volume of brands in Britain for typography and pushing the boundaries there? Or do you think it's just a coincidence that there's a couple of good examples there that have come up in our conversation?
- [23:29]
B
I would say that the closer you look into any kind of country's production of watches, you'll find interesting examples. I mean, certainly Hermes is another example of a brand that is really pushing typography. In their collaboration with Philippe Apollo, who is the designer of the slim Hermes numerals, as well as some of the other styles on some of their new releases, you can see that those really deviate and are very, very contemporary. Even from Switzerland, you see some of the experimentation. More so on the independent side, some of the numeral styles that via Halter uses are quite interesting and some of which are very traditional and lean towards an engraving form for the numeral and others for the art deco watch that he released earlier. You know, that's just kind of full crazy art deco style numerals which aren't typically seen on watches but are still very beautiful in that context.
- [24:33]
A
So again, both British brands, any chance of a collaboration between Fears and Ordain? I mean, you've worked with Garrick in the past with great Success. What do you think about that?
- [24:41]
B
Well, I would probably call back to Nicholas's appearance on this show when he was asked the same question. I think that any collaboration needs to be bringing up both brands in pushing them in ways that they wouldn't normally go, and ultimately leading to a product that is really more than the sum of its parts. I think, personally, if you're asking my opinion, I would never, ever, ever say absolutely not to somebody coming in to suggest a collaboration. Right now, we have no plans, but if there's an opportunity, if there's a project or a piece that we feel that Ann Ordain and Fierce could come together to create something really special, you know, why not?
- [25:32]
A
Wow, you've really done your research. Thanks for listening to that episode. I appreciate it. I always enjoy talking to Nicholas on the show. We've had him on a couple of times, and, I mean, he's just a great leader, a great person, a good friend, by this point. And what's it like to work for him? Like, he's the kind of guy that, I think, you know, he's not your typical American football linebacker coach, like, you know, whipping people up into a frenzy with his speeches, but I get the impression that everybody that works with him would run through a wall for him. How do you feel about that?
- [26:03]
B
Absolutely. It's. Well, I will say it's a very intense workplace. There is always a lot going on, and that that hasn't changed since it was just a few of us in the company to now we have a team of 10 and will likely be growing very early into the future. What my relationship with Nicholas is on the work front is what I would hope it could be. In anybody's relation, especially between a director and a creative. We basically leave our egos at the door, or at the very least, we use our egos to push products to be the best that it can be. He will generally give me a brief of thinking. You know, say, this is what I'm thinking about. This is. These are some colors that I've been inspired by. This is a complication that I would like to explore. This is a form that I think fears should be making. And my job then is to translate those thoughts and those words into both respecting what he's asking for, but then also pushing back, inquiring, why did he make those choices? And that usually results in a few different options and concepts that he's specifically asked for, and then a few others that completely deviate from that brief. But where I am exploring my own interpretation into that and what we normally see as some of these projects have come to fruition is that a few of the deviations usually make it up until the production run. It may not be a full design, but it's almost always an aspect of one of those designs that makes it into the watch that some people will wear on the wrist.
- [27:54]
A
You mentioned that although the team is growing quite quickly, as it must do following the success of the brand in recent years, it's still a small team. What are the good and bad things about working in a small unit like that when everybody has quite a lot of responsibility to pull their weight?
- [28:10]
B
I would say that one of the aspects where you might be asked to do more than you would expect is the fact that, yes, it's a small team. So on certain days where we're dispatching watches, I've certainly had this when I'm in the office that suddenly we have to drop everything and the priority is putting watches in boxes, filling out paperwork. Whereas if you have a, you know, a full dispatch team, you can always expect that they will have the resources to complete those tasks. So it can be a very dynamic workplace. Some people thrive on that, some people don't. And the other aspect is it requires you to think critically not only of what your own tasks are, but how they affect the person sitting next to you in the office. Not, not a whole department. It's the person sitting next to you that you might eat your lunch with or have a chat with. And that means that anyone working in operations is going to have a keen understanding of how their communication on their side will affect, for instance, the commercial team. And for me it's usually I'm dealing with both operations and then towards the ends of the project, the commercial team. And that's. That means I can't just be in a silo thinking, oh, what watches are we going to come out with in 2026 and how nice is it going to be when we make, you know, the most brilliant dial that you've ever seen? I'm not giving anything away here, but it is thinking about some long term things and then snapping right back to the present moment saying, we need some owner's cards for this project, they need to be done. Now, how do we think about that? Who has an idea? Let's have a conversation. Those are the things that dynamic switching of tasks is what you find a lot in the Fears team right now. And it's certainly something that I can hope is included into the work culture as the team grows, because it's a huge Strength of all of the Fears team right now is that they can think dynamically and critically about the context that they're in, how it affects their team members, how it affects the brand, and how it can help everyone get through the tasks of the day or the next few days or the next few months or years.
- [30:34]
A
So it sounds like you're a pretty tight knit bunch. Does that really come out when a group of you, like Nicholas, Daniel and yourself were traveling recently together in a very intense environment like you seem to.
- [30:49]
B
Yeah.
- [30:49]
A
Look after each other well, to always be looking out for one another. Does that just help build those bonds and make you even more keen to make Fears the very best version of itself?
- [31:00]
B
Absolutely. And of course, yeah, you and Alon would have seen us on this trip, but we also put that into practice when Fears is doing shows or exhibitions. You know, whether that's in the uk, in Europe or in North America, where we're not always sending out the same people to work the booth. Obviously, as many of those events that Nicholas can attend, that that's great. He is ultimately the face of the brand. He's the focal point if there ever was to be a person. But we now have the trust in each other that we can essentially send any number of team members to an event and know that they can work with each other and that they have the understanding of Fears, the story, the product and the customer to represent the brand. And that allows for us to also change people's days up, where you're not always sat in a cubicle looking at spreadsheets or, you know, contacting suppliers or customers and that kind of thing. It allows for you to go meet, shake hands, look at our, you know, see how people see our watches, look at other watches. And it's been as the team has grown, that's been a wonderful thing that we've been able to have everyone kind of participate in the way you're talking.
- [32:25]
A
Sounds like you're going to be a Fears lifer. But is there anything that you feel you would like to do outside of your role now for yourself? I know a lot of people that work in the industry have aspirations to have their own brand or to be involved with other brands and make an impact on different levels of horology. For example, personally, just to share this, I idolize designers like Eric Chirau or like Guy, both people that have worked with multiple brands in the past and left their fingerprints all over the industry, like Manuel, you know, like these guys that are just able to shift gears and do different things. And show their versatility and creativity. I totally understand if somebody would prefer instead to just be the linchpin of a success, a single success, and tie their career and reputation to it. But where do you come down on that?
- [33:19]
B
It's a very interesting question. I think ultimately I do value independence and having a diversity of work. I think that that allows you to build strength into all of the work that you do. Before I started full time at Fears about two and a bit years ago, you know, Fears for me was another one of my clients. So I was fully independent, doing freelance. And it was a time that I really enjoyed because. Because you would have one day working on fears, one day working on, you know, some numerals for abing, two, another day doing an illustration for MB and F, that kind of. That kind of workflow. As I started full time in Fears, one of the stipulations that I made for my job was that I needed to be able to work a certain amount of time, a certain percentage of time, which changes over the weeks. On independent projects, this is done through an umbrella that. An umbrella department that's under fears, but this is ostensibly simply myself. We will likely grow it out into its, you know, its own kind of department. But for now, that actually allows me to take on projects as they come in for other clients and allows me to explore that kind of diversity in work that I. That I really do chase and value. And I've already seen that where thinking about a dial for another brand will lead to answers that might improve a dial for Fears at a future date. So while I'm very, very happy and would love to work for Fears for the foreseeable future, I also am very glad that I'm able to work a little bit on other projects that allow me to work in different ways or think in different ways. And it just helps every part of the practice. I will say I'm not in a hurry to strike off on my own or start a microbrand or anything like that, especially considering what the watch market is right now. But being able to work for various clients in amongst all of the work for Fears is something that is very liberating within the job.
- [35:46]
A
You should call it no Fears, you know, your little offshoot department. No Fears, no opportunities, new operations. Fears. No Fears. I could always see it now. T shirts, everything. Baseball caps. Incredible.
- [35:59]
B
There we go. You got to get the merch.
- [36:00]
A
I got to get the merch. If you need a merch guy, you know, hit me up. Okay, next question. How many times have you designed a typography that's never seen the light of day. I mean, you must have a sketchbooks full of ideas, crazy ideas, sometimes maybe more conservative ideas that just didn't make it through. Maybe some of them are on the back burner, like concepts, ideas that you want to bring to life at some point in the future. Does it happen? Or do you tend to work in a linear direction with every project and don't have too much that doesn't make the grade?
- [36:35]
B
So there are a ton of numeral sketches in various sketchbooks that are scattered around my flat where there are just, you know, not even a full set of 12 numerals, you know, 1, 2, 3, you know, 2, 4, 6. And that's, that's where they, that's where they sit until they have a use beyond that. I mean they're. There are not enough hours in the day to design all of the watch numerals or numerals in general that I, that I would like to do. The other side of it is a lot of the exploration that I've done in creating typography for watches has been done as part of my one hour watch project where I would draw a watch and increasingly as I draw a watch within an hour, and increasingly as I became more interested in typography, there would be drawings that would feature sets of typography styles of typography that I was interested in in that day. A lot of it is more on the avant garde side of watch typography. There are some I describe as like neo Breguet styles that I've experimented in, but apart from existing on those drawings, they haven't yet found a use in a, in a watch, certainly in a fierce watch. There are a few times that I push typography with fears and have been able to develop new sets and new styles. There have also been times that I've gone back and developed a very traditional style, for instance, in upright Breguet style. Most people wouldn't necessarily associate these numerals with Breguet, but they are sometimes given that name in old catalogs. An example of this is what you would have seen in the Brunswick 1924 edition. This thinking about a very traditional numeral was an interesting essay or an interesting practice for me to do. And the flip side of that was in designing those numerals. I was also thinking about how do they work at the hour scale and how do they work at the scale where they're going to be printed, very small for small seconds, sub dial, for instance. And the result of that was A set of numerals that can transform their design to be suited for display in an hour and display as a tiny, tiny sub seconds numeral.
- [39:08]
A
I don't think I've ever heard anything like that before. I love your work as One Hour Watch. And your images, are they available for people to buy? Because if you don't know this account, by the way, dear listeners, then please go over to instagram.com and search for nerwatch. That's O N E H O U R W A T C H and give it a follow because the stuff that you do is just stunning.
- [39:36]
B
Oh, thank you very much. I might make a few people annoyed and say no, nothing is for sale on there. 1. I've tried to maintain that one hour watch as a nearly. Not like a nearly completely non commercial project. It is very specifically an output of work, an experimentation, a practice. And while there would have been ways in the past when I was uploading every day to monetize that, I really wanted to stay away from commercializing the project. I've done a few posters, a few prints, but what you find is also, I want to respect the quality of work that's gone into the drawings, which then requires a very high quality print. To be able to do that on demand with a collection of drawings that is nearly 3,000 strong is just a recipe for a headache essentially. So I'm saving myself a bit of strife. But if you want to see the pictures, obviously all of them are available for free online. Take a screenshot, please. Don't print it out, but enjoy it in your own time. I mean, it would make one hell.
- [40:46]
A
Of a coffee table book if you ever have the time or capacity to put it together.
- [40:49]
B
I mean, that's a beautiful thing that has been. One of the more requested things to come out is a yearbook or something like that. But yeah, as you mentioned, I would need quite a bit of time to be able to put that together.
- [41:05]
A
All right, well, no pressure, but you know, if it ever happens, let me know because I'd love to buy one. Tell me this, what do you enjoy most about designing watches from a philosophical perspective? And I mean, do you enjoy the challenge of working with a rather restrictive canvas? Do you enjoy seeing an idea come to life in material? What is it that really, really excites you about that whole process?
- [41:31]
B
This is actually going back to when I first started getting interested in watches and I couldn't put it into words back then, but what I realized was watches are they hold so many different things. A large aspect of many Watches, and this is certainly true of fierce watches, is they hold traditional craft values in the form. Like, you can speak about how exciting some avant garde watches like woodwork and MB&F, I love those. But the lasting love for watches that I have really does come back to that respect for tradition, traditional methods of production, traditional methods of display. You know, we're at the end of the day talking about an analog mechanical timepiece that we don't need, but we all enjoy. Those were the things that really appealed to me in the beginning was this sense of, this sense of tradition and exploration within that tradition. That was very much in contrast when I was studying design. And at that point, you know, things like startups, people revolutionizing or, you know, renegades coming in and disrupting what the status quo was. That that's what all of the hype was back then. And I think that a lot of those businesses, a lot of those designs are, and products are quite interesting. But they didn't strike, they didn't strike my passion, certainly in the same way that watches did. And the way that I have thought about that over the years is that watches hold all of this tradition. And there's something on one hand, I think that it's so satisfying to hold a watch case and have this sculpted piece of metal that has been, you know, it's touched by hands, it's been thought of by a designer, but it's also been worked on by machines. And it's this wonderful blend and some of the glue that holds that together is this network of tradition of what are the forms that have come before that? How are the methods of production defining that form or helping it to express itself? And those are, those are the aspects of design, designing for watches and timepieces that really appeal to me and really keep, keep the interest alive.
- [44:04]
A
So what do you do outside of the industry to stay sharp? Do you have hobbies? Do you travel privately? Do you like sports? What is it that keeps your head in the right space for you to be able to create as relentlessly as you seem to be able to?
- [44:18]
B
I would say during the day it's being able to listen to a lot of music. I almost always have an album of something playing in the background. And then in the evenings, I always like to cook my dinner. And then, you know, if time permits, I'm a, I'm a big movie buff, so I like to watch movies. And then outside of that, you know, it's going to gigs, it's going out to walks in the park, riding a bike around London is quite fun. And those are so those are the things that kind of help to contrast being very, very in depth into watches. But I also have to say, like, I just like being around watches. It was something that when I was in Canada was, you know, it seemed like it was impossible to experience watches. And now you come to a city like London or you know, travel to Geneva and the culture around watches to me is still incredibly exciting and invigorating. And those are, while they are still very much watches that interest also it's, it's self sustaining interest really.
- [45:30]
A
So let's talk about the. Let's talk about the future of fears and what we can expect to see coming. In fact, we have a new model just about to drop or having just dropped, should I say. Tell us about that.
- [45:44]
B
All right, so this is the Fiers Brunswick 40.5 jump hour. Now this is the follow up to a watch that was very, very important to Fierce but also to the alliance of British watchmakers. And it was the alliance Jump Hour that we did with Christopher Ward that was a limited piece. It sold out almost immediately. So it made a few people very, very happy and from what I've seen of the wait list, a lot of people very anxious and sad. So we knew we needed to follow it up, but in a way that respects the original watch and the original special limited quality of that watch and can show something a little bit new to anyone who would be willing to buy it as a regular production watch. So the design of the original Alliance 01 was done. It was led very much by the team at Christopher Ward with Nicholas giving feedback to them over a few rounds of concepts. And they presented something that I think it would have been very difficult to think of in a gist fierce silo. And so it was wonderful to see that design that their team had done and really kind of turn another page to what a Fierce watch can be. Now what we see on the production Jump hour is a slight tweaking of a few of the details. And this is where I become more involved in the design, but also very much respect for the foundations that the team at Christopher Ward and Nicholas laid down for that alliance. So we want to try and respect everyone, the owners, Christopher Ward, the design of that original concept of that watch, but also see where can we take things now that the foundation has been established.
- [47:52]
A
And so I guess you're very satisfied with the result. I mean, I've seen the result and it is quite special.
- [47:59]
B
Yeah. So we've done small things like adding, you know, changing the minute track. This was one thing that I was very keen to look at because we wanted to baseline, keep the dial very open, you know, very bare, that you'd have space for the eye to rest in the dialogue. But I thought that there was an interesting, perhaps unexplored aspect of looking at circles within the dial. So one of the changes that we made was to change the minute track from a dashed minute track into a dotted minute track and also then to bring the numerals for all of the five minute markers outside. And what that allowed for us to do is print all 60 minutes as well as retain some typography on the dial, which always makes me happy for the five minute markers. That calls back certainly to the original Alliance 01, but allows us to display the time in a slightly different way and also in a way that feels extremely contemporary. Like this does not feel like a vintage watch. This is a forward looking watch.
- [49:12]
A
Where can people see it? Where can people try it on? Where can people buy it?
- [49:17]
B
You can see it of course online on our website on Instagram. We have our boutique in Clifton in Bristol. So if you are in and around the Bristol area please do come and visit the boutique. We will definitely have some there for you to try on. We also have stockists around the uk, in the States, in Australia, in, in Dubai. We're talking about others. So there will be more opportunities for eager hands to get on these watches if you do want to see it in the metal into the future. And of course Firs is always hoping to be part of watch shows whether that's wine up or other shows that we can bring the watches to people around the world.
- [50:01]
A
Brilliant stuff Lee. Thank you for your time. I've really enjoyed this interview. I absolutely adore it when we talk to her. A real professional that knows their craft inside and I and the insights you're able to share with me and the community, I'm sure very valuable and extremely, extremely appreciated. So thank you for your time and I hope to get you back on the show in the future. I know Alon is going to be jealous at this episode. He always is when we have one of these really in depth moments and I'm going to tease him about it relentlessly for as long as I can. If our listeners have any questions for Lee or for Nicholas or for anyone at Fears, please do get in touch via the usual channels. You can contact us on our Instagram handle at the Real Time show via our email addresses. Either Rob Alon or David at the Real Time show or of course via the contact form on the website WW therealtime show. We will be back soon with more top quality watch content. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.