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The Real Time Show
Nicholas Bowman-Scargill, Daniel Varney, and Harvey Butler of Fears Join Alon in Amsterdam
00:55:49
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- [00:00]
Alon Joseph
Foreign Watch fans and welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood jeweler, Alon Joseph. In the physical studio. I have not one, not two, but three guests. And this is starting to be a tradition because if you do something three times, apparently it's a tradition. So we have the three gentlemen of Fierce Watch Company all the way from Bristol, here in the Amsterdam studio of the Real Time Show. Gentlemen, welcome. I have sitting next to me the one, the only, the fourth managing direction, but sixth generation of his company, Nicholas Bowman. Skog.
- [00:50]
Nicholas Bowman-Scargill
Thank you very much. It's great to be on again.
- [00:53]
Alon Joseph
We have. And we had to twist his arm here, sitting opposite me, Daniel Varney. Did I pronounce that?
- [01:01]
Daniel Varney
Well, that sounds beautifully. Thank you, Alan. Pleasure to be here.
- [01:04]
Alon Joseph
Sounds almost French.
- [01:06]
Daniel Varney
Almost.
- [01:07]
Alon Joseph
We won't hold that. We won't hold that again.
- [01:09]
Daniel Varney
No, no, no, please don't. Please don't.
- [01:11]
Alon Joseph
We always egg on David Vaucher, that he's French, but thank God he sounds American. And last, but certainly, certainly not least, the Benjamin, but very handsome, Harvey Butler.
- [01:25]
Harvey Butler
Thank you for having us. Pleasure to be here.
- [01:27]
Alon Joseph
What's in a name? He's very much here to assist everyone with a smile. But don't mistake him for being a silent servant because butlers are very essential in every house, home, mansion, castle and company. So, gentlemen, this is the third time on the show. I'm looking very sternly in the eyes of Nicholas. He and I, the chatterboxers are not allowed to speak a lot. Nicholas, I warn you, we are here together because we had an amazing two days in Amsterdam. This is the third day because I had the honor to present fears in Amsterdam both to the ACE VIPs. The Red Bar Cru Amsterdam. We had a very long two days, but these gentlemen are actually very energetic. I did make them very stiff. Not cocktails, but coffee. It's very early in the morning. These guys are like Duracell bunnies today. Since it's the third time we have fears on the show, I am mostly going to physically look at Daniel and Harvey. I want to talk a bit today on the show about how 2024 has been and beyond that bit of commerce, why you are in Amsterdam. Basically the first stepping stone for your expanding retail network. Let's maybe discuss why you want retail. Because majority of brands go direct to consumer. The old heritage brands are retracting their dealer network. The new brands that sometimes don't have a choice due to being a Kickstarter project or because they want to, they'll go direct to consumer. Immediately either E Com maybe Omnichannel with a mono brand. You do it all and very meticulously and it seems maybe you do have a 10 year strategy plan in place which is impossible in this volatile world. Let's start with Daniel and I'm looking at Nicholas if I may, sir.
- [03:45]
Nicholas Bowman-Scargill
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [03:47]
Alon Joseph
Take it away, Daniel. Tell us who you are, what you do within fears and then tell us a bit about last year.
- [03:54]
Daniel Varney
So as Anon rightly says, my name is Daniel, Daniel Varney. It isn't French. I am very much British. I am the head of commercial here at Fear. So I was the effectively the first hire into the commercial department which we've since grown. So when I talk about the last year just gone 2024 and into 2025, that's you know, sights and time for our department really. I'll be honest, probably aside from what Lee un rapity does, who's been on the POD before as our head designer, probably the second most fun job in the company if I'm honest, get to come to beautiful places such as Amsterdam and spend my time with wonderful people such as Alon. In terms of 10 year plans actually it's funny you should say in our job description. So kind of my first interaction with the brand from a kind of formal professional capacity. Nicholas speaks in which about a 50 year vision. So I think really that in itself kind of encapsulates the approach we take to the business and certainly the vision that Nicholas has had really from day one when restarting Fears. Now I won't retract the last eight years. He did that last night in a wonderfully eloquent speech as part the part of our event here. But in that sense it's very much a long term vision in that regard. It isn't a kind of fly by night strategy in that sense. We're extremely considered about the approach that we take and our long term ambitions and goals for really being the preeminent British luxury watch company. But crucially for us, you know, with a very vast heritage, but not a heritage that we entirely lean upon and rely upon, it's just something that we kind of obviously pay respect to, but very much forward thinking at the same time as well as, you know, a healthy dose of looking backwards. So looking backwards on that subject to 2024, I mean I would say it was a bit of a transitional year for us behind the scenes, but a very successful one front of house. So we grew last year in a downturn which I think not a lot of Watch fans, certainly not on our British hours can probably say, you know, we're very much poised for growth now. I would say, you know, we've done a lot of the hard work behind the scenes preparing the company to go from being, I guess, in some ways in a kind of more of a startup mode to one that's a, you know, sort of fully fledged watch company as a where. And this is, you know, us being here in Amsterdam now is one of the key pillars of that, you know, as you rightly say, alon, you know, we have kind of several revenue streams and sales channels and you ask, you know, we can touch a little bit later on about the kind of retailer side and why it's important to us. But in terms of 2024 was a fantastic year. You know, we launched a new watch family based off the original course piece that Niffliss were introduced in 2016. You know, as I see on your listening, on your wrist there, the jump how I made a reappearance, you know, probably our most coveted and requested model that we originally did back in 2023 with our dear friends at Christopher Ward in association, I should say, with the alliance of British watch and clock makers. So it was an important year from a product perspective, but an even more important year from the perspective of making sure we had the right kind of building blocks and the right team in place behind the scenes to really attack 2025 and beyond.
- [07:04]
Alon Joseph
Before we continue, I want to give the mic to Harvey. Harvey, give us a quick intro. Who you are, your background, where you come from before joining Team Fears and what you do within the company.
- [07:17]
Harvey Butler
Oh, well, my name's, yep, Harvey Butler. As, as we mentioned, I work alongside Daniel in the commercial department and primarily I focus on building relationships with our Stockist network. So that involves, you know, coming here to Amsterdam, traveling across the UK and the world as well to provide support and training and assist where the need be and ultimately grow the brand through. Through the Stockist network. Prior to this I worked in kind of big box jewelry. So I watches, I should say I worked for Tudor in the Watches of Switzerland group and was actually introduced to Fears through my local Red Bar chapter. And after being a fan for a while, I was introduced to Nicholas and a job kind of came out of the woodwork and the rest is history pretty much.
- [08:15]
Daniel Varney
Yeah. So thankfully for us at the time, Harvey joined us as a commercial slash operations assistant. So spanned both of the kind of key core departments of our business. And then after 12 months, frankly, from my perspective at least decided that he really wanted to pursue commercial side. So a very key and welcome member of my team and I certainly couldn't do what I do on the retail side without him, that's for sure.
- [08:40]
Alon Joseph
I want also to compliment Nicholas here on the mic because I've asked him, who do you want on the pod? So he looked at me and he said, why is this why you're asking a stupid question while his eyes were.
- [08:54]
Nicholas Bowman-Scargill
Saying that I do not have a poker face at all.
- [08:58]
Alon Joseph
What you see is what you get. So he's like, yeah, Daniel should be on the show. And I said, what do we do with Harvey? He's like, of course he's on the show as well. And that says it all. He surrounds himself with amazing people. I've almost met at least 67% of the team by now and he rocks up with them on fairs. That's how I've met them, basically because I haven't been to Bristol yet. Long overdue. And you see that he gives a lot of freedom and reign to his teams and puts trust in them. To touch upon that topic, there are a lot of listeners that are active in the watch industry. A lot of them aspire to work in the watch industry. What does it take to become a fierce team member?
- [09:55]
Nicholas Bowman-Scargill
It's a very interesting thing because it's something Daniel and I will talk about as the two of us make up internally what we call the leadership team. So looking at things like financials, human resource and whenever we're looking at recruiting and recruiting at fears is tough. We've had it in the past where a senior role has been vacant and we've had nearly 100 applicants, 20 with MBAs and we've not hired anyone. You know, we really take the time because everyone I want to bring into this company, I bring in with the vision and the slightly old fashioned belief, you know, in modern world of going, actually I want them to come and stay and grow within the company. You know, nowadays people assume when you start a job you'll be there two years max. You zigzag your way around, that's how, how it is. But actually there's so much power if you can create a place where people want to stay and build a career so they're not always having to think, oh, I need to look for a new job because there are those opportunities. And you know, for some people, they don't necessarily want to progress up through, through, you know, through the structure. But for others it's great to offer that opportunity. You know, if I go back to when I first started hiring the first people you hire. And most small business owners will know this. You hire friends, people, acquaintances, people you know, it's the easiest way. Then we started hiring people who were just pure watch enthusiasts, you know, huge fans of fears. But we did begin to find that sometimes the reality of, you know, if you love watches, actually when you're doing the job and you're sitting in front of a spreadsheet or writing emails every day, it can lose a bit of its fun and excitement. So we now make a point of going, yes, if you've got a passion for watches, that's brilliant. That really adds something because we're not going to have to teach you the difference between a crystal and a winding crown. But we now look to get people who have experience in the areas we want. And I was talking about this yesterday, actually, to someone about how when people look at getting a job in the watch industry, they naturally assume the only profession is watchmaker. Now, to be a watchmaker requires a whole host of specialist skills and it's not for everyone. But there are all these other different roles, you know, viz is divided into four different departments. We have commercial operations, design and marketing. And if you look at the actual roles within that, it's not too dissimilar from another organization outside of the watch industry. So for me, it is always key to make sure that, you know, the people we have, the fears person, which is a very difficult concept to kind of do, but we know when someone is a fierce person or not. I'm not musical, but I know when something is out of tune, you know, it's that thing we can tell very quickly in an interview, is this person going to be part of the, the team. And it doesn't mean, and I'm pleased we don't have a company filled with, you know, absolute carbon coffees. You know, we have very, very different individuals, different backgrounds, different passions. But what's great is everyone has something core to them that bonds them together. I'm very lucky with a team of 10 people. You know, we, we seem to manage avoiding politics and things like that that often happen in, in any workplace. But it's also a true team, you know, even though people have their own different roles. I witness this every day in the head office or in the boutique. Different members of the team from different departments helping or offering help, you know, and that is, that's special. It's really special to see that. And, you know, I always refer to it as we and my colleagues because, yes, I may be managing director, I may Own the business. But fundamentally, fears would not be anywhere near it is today without the hard work that the team put in. You know, the fact that everyone is pulling together is just absolutely incredible.
- [14:05]
Alon Joseph
What is the critical success factor for? Because 10 is not a small team anymore. The economists say business units that grow beyond 2025 should basically split cells and create different units because you lose Touching funeral. Big organization. They talk about 100. I would have nightmares managing a team of 100 people. Me, myself as a manager. What do you think is that critical success factor within fears that you don't have that because I haven't noticed indeed friction where you'll notice it in a lot of companies because you're not young anymore. Eight years, not young, you're creeping to your teens. And I have an 8 year old boy at home. It's already difficult to manage and control him and make him listen to me. So what do you think is that success factor?
- [14:56]
Nicholas Bowman-Scargill
I think it's that if I go back just over 18 months ago, almost two years ago, Fiz was at about seven people and I was aware that I was doing. If I say I was doing too much work, I'm not afraid of working hard. But everything went through me. I was a huge bottleneck for the business. And a very good friend of mine who lives in London, who I've known since has set up, run and sold businesses, very successful chap and now does business coaching. And I reached out to him, basically said help, I need help, you know, and we sat down, he went through the company and the structure and he put together this plan for me. And it was crazy because we're going, well, hang on, we're a relatively small company, seven people, you know, one at the time, just one, one location. And he goes, yes, but the thing is you will not be able to grow unless you start putting in structure and processes. And so actually when you look at fears today, we actually have a lot of the systems and ways of operating and chains of command and things like that that a business that was five, six, seven times the size of us would have. But what that's done is make it much easier because don't get me wrong, I can still be a huge bottleneck. I'm sure Daniel will very quickly say that there are certain does come on to me and you know, there's only so many hours in the day. But what we now have is what may seem overkill for a company of our size. But it means that we can see, you know, when in December, Daniel and I sat down doing our annual strategy meeting. And we're thinking of different roles we want to hire in 2025, we have no worry about taking those people on because the structure we've got, who will report into who, how it will all work, is very, very clear. And it's designed to be efficient and ensure people aren't frustrated. But it also helps people see how they can, you know, how they can grow within the business. You know, it's very fashionable to say, oh, modern companies, everything should be a very flat structure. And yes, you know, I can see the benefit of that. But actually, I prefer more traditional structure where, you know, we, we have a very clear sort of hierarchy because it means people aren't in any doubt of, like, you know, who's managing who, but also where their career progression can go. Now, the flat structure I'm talking about, which we don't have officially, but what we do have is when we're in the office, everyone has the same desk, even myself, it's the same size desk. And a squire recently came to visit our office and they said, Nicholas Blameless Cargill sat at his very small desk. I was like, no, this is the same as everyone's desk. It's actually not that small, you know, but the fact is, you know, we have an open office. People can come and talk to people. People, you know, it's. It's a very open, modern workplace. But we've created a structure that means that as the team grows, we're not going to have those growing pains.
- [18:01]
Alon Joseph
I distilled from this as the critical success factor that he checked his ego at the cloakroom and asked for help. These are two essential things. So kudos to you. So maybe learn from this. Dear managers and entrepreneurs, listening to this pod, Daniel and Harvey, what do you want to add to that as a critical success factor and why you, Daniel, are quite some time there already and I feel that you work as if it's your own company. Harvey I've just met two days ago, but you sense a feeling of ownership. Something else I wanted to share before I forget, that really stood out for me, talking about management styles and managing expectations. I've met Harvey for the first time and I knew of his existence because an email I received, this was an email that I got basically twice as press and as a retailer saying, hey, we're about to launch a watch this week. La la la la la. This is what it's about. Sorry, it's not for retail, it's a marketing vehicle, just so you know. And I was blown away. I'M like, not blown away by the fact that I couldn't sell the watch or obtain a watch because There are only 10 of them, but the fact that they communicated proactively, had the respect to tell me what's going on and manage my expectations as a retailer and therefore my consumers. Because you guys think they're my consumers. Most brands think the retailer's consumer is their consumer directly. Obviously somebody who buys a fridge, which is indirectly your consumer, but you see a symbiosis. So that's something I wanted to share and express my compliments to you, which I've not actually formally done yet because I'm reflecting here while we're sitting with a nice cup of coffee. To go back to you, Daniel and Harvey, critical success factors. And why do you guys walk around as if you are the seventh generation of fierce?
- [20:13]
Daniel Varney
Well, I mean, Harvey always jokes that he will be as perhaps a premonition.
- [20:18]
Alon Joseph
I'm not sure. You're adopting him then your husband and you, Nick?
- [20:21]
Nicholas Bowman-Scargill
I think, yeah, I'm gonna have to adopt him.
- [20:23]
Daniel Varney
And yeah, I mean, it's a difficult one to. To put your finger on, actually. It's funny you should say, because I was reflecting, you know, as. As sure everybody does at the end of the, you know, long, hard year, which 2024 was as to. I was feeling a little burnt out, I'll be truthful, feeling, you know, why. Why do I act like, you know, because I have run my own company in the past and actually I was feeling, you know, a sense of deja vu almost. But obviously without the. The shares in. In this particular scenario, why do I work so hard as if it were mine and kind of live and die by. By how it goes? And I couldn't quite come up with an answer, but I kept coming around to the same underlying feeling that I just love it so much, what we do, the sense of purpose, what we're trying to achieve. And I think as a critical success factor for a team, I think, you know, when we hire, and this isn't always easy to ascertain from interview stage, but you kind of do get a feeling for a person. And we quite upfront about, you know, this is not for everyone. You know, when we hire, it's very much, you know, for every one person who absolutely love working here, there'll be nine who couldn't think of anything worse. So it's just finding out that one out of the 10, really. But I think we all have a unified purpose. You know, we're pulling in the same direction. Everybody really believes in, in what we're doing, obviously enjoys the work, loves the watches. And so to that end, you know, we're really a team of 10 operating, doing the workload of a team of 25. You know, as Nicholas said in his speech is his talk yesterday that from the outside looking in, you know, other brands, industry observers, retailers are looking at our company as if we're manufacturing 10,000 watches a year, which I think is quite the compliment in some ways, but kind of staring in the sense that, you know, I can, I can assure you we very much aren't. But it's now really making the reality match the perception. So we do kind of punch above our weight in that sense, both in terms of, you know, what we achieve product wise, but also what we achieve as a team. And that, you know, that can only be, that can only be achieved if you have the right people pulling in the same direction and all with a shared unified vision and they understand why we're doing what we're doing and taking the steps that we do.
- [22:34]
Alon Joseph
Thank you for the PC answer. This is the Real Time show. We talk real shit here. I'll tell you why you're still there. You can say whatever you want. Again to Nicholas, not only will he rebuttal, he'll think about it and he might even say, you're correct. And that I've seen in action, daytime, lunchtime, dinner time, way past our bedtime and we've spent now this is day three together and it's a beautiful symbiosis between you two because it's banter, serious, intellectual, very commercial marketing. So it's wonderful to see as a bystander. So that's the real answer, ladies and gentlemen, listening to the podcast.
- [23:22]
Daniel Varney
Well actually the real, the real answer to Alan to interject this. Nicholas has always been quite plain that he didn't want a yes man and that I can assure you I'm very much not. So I will speak my mind. If I don't agree, I will, I will put a counter argument forwards and I think that is actually the sign of a healthy working relationship at any, any part of a business but certainly at the top. You know, it shouldn't be a top down dictatorship. It should be. But again it's also shouldn't be kind of design and management by committee either but having that, you know, mutual respect for each other, you know, to actually come to things but also take on board other, you know, frames of view, etc. But yeah, I think that that is an element that you know, is a critical success Factor. I think that it's not just one person's think. It's not. We're not plagued by dogma or anything like that. You know, we very much, again, the same thing. Harvey Wood tester, you know, he'll say something to me, oh, I think we should do this. Or if you thought about that and sometimes I'll explain. Oh, I have always thought about that. And for this, that reason, that reason, that reason we're not. And oh, well, at least you've kind of explained to me why that or otherwise I might say, you know what? Actually hands up. That's not something I'd thought about. I'll take it up, you know, and then we'll start with Nicholas. And then actually, people you know from the most junior levels of the company can make suggestions that actually may well become reality. And I think empowering people at all levels of an organizational structure is important.
- [24:38]
Alon Joseph
Harvey. Yeah. You don't have any opportunity to say no, but don't worry, I'll defend you. Speak your mind, your truth.
- [24:47]
Harvey Butler
I think in a company the size of ours that's kind of swimming with some big fish, you have a lot of ownership in all of your work, regardless of what position you are in the company. So myself having quite a junior role, my name is, you know, on the back of many of our watches, as I was quality controlling them when I was doing operations. And there's. You have quite a massive sense of pride seeing that in the flesh. So coming here and seeing the watches in your cabinet with that. And I think that just helps you kind of drive a bit further and push a bit harder and. Yeah. Strive to achieve more. And that's kind of why I think that's the attitude that a lot of the members of. Well, everyone has. Whatever role you do has a significant impact. And ultimately we all see the work that we do and we're always proud of the results. And that's why we operate at the kind of capacity we do touch upon.
- [25:57]
Alon Joseph
The fact that you come from a publicly listed company.
- [26:00]
Daniel Varney
Yes.
- [26:01]
Alon Joseph
And worked directly with the most powerful watch group in the industry, being the Rolex Group. I work for tudor. That's something you and I have in common. And Nicholas has in common with you because he worked for Rolex as well. Have you? Daniel worked for a big conglomeration before, but with.
- [26:22]
Daniel Varney
Not in the watch industry. No.
- [26:24]
Alon Joseph
No. So, Harvey, how does that feel? And I dare to say get rid of the shackles, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Please elaborate on that. Coming to Fears. How does that feel?
- [26:36]
Harvey Butler
It was a. It was a change. It was certainly a surprise how close I would work with the director of the company. A lot of. A lot of the processes had been implemented originally by Nicholas. So when passing over the roles, Nicholas was teaching me directly. And I think that's quite. I wouldn't say intimidating, but it's quite significant. It feels quite important when you're having this task handed down from someone that created the company, as opposed to just generic standard operating procedures that have to be adhered to. And in doing that, you're talking to the face of the company. And if there are subtle changes that you think might improve, it's an open floor, you're able to do that. And as a result, you know, our quality control procedure has changed. We've implemented different things. Our dispatch area has evolved. And I think, you know, that's the main difference is we are. We understand that we kind of constantly need to evolve. And bigger companies, they do what they don't, but that's their decision. You have no. You have no influence. And, you know, our dispatch area, for example, was primarily done to make our lives easier. The people doing that role. And we raised it to Nicholas, and it was considered, and he spent some time, and he made it a bit more efficient. I think in larger companies, they would kind of say, tough. That's how we do it. And so, yeah, I think that's one of the main differences. It's just more. It's more people focused because you've seen them every day, you can't really hide. So, yeah, I was just going to.
- [28:29]
Nicholas Bowman-Scargill
Say, I was thinking, last week I sent Harvey on Instagram a meme because it very much reflected something that he and I have been chatting about. So the meme is this chap who is handed a microphone, and he's about to speak, and then he very kind of quickly moves the microphone away, puts it down, takes a glass of water, and kind of looks the other way. And it goes when you're about to, you know, suggest something new at work, and then very quickly realize it's going to become your responsibility to implement it. And I sent it to Harvey as a joke because, you know, there are times where Harvey will kind of say, like, oh, by the way, have we thought about doing this? And I will then very much be like, okay, well, how would you want to change it? How could we change it? How could. And there have been quite a few occasions where I've gone, okay, that's brilliant. Right? Would you like to research that? And Find some options and like, put together how it could be done. Because if you're going to be doing it yourself, let's do. Let's get you to do the first draft of it. I can come in and then kind of, you know, make some tweaks and adjustments. But, you know, there have been quite a few process changes that Harvey's flagged to me. Quite a few things where I remember when we were at Time to Watches last year, we went out to get lunch and you and I were walking on, walking along the road to the supermarket to get a sandwich. And yeah, you, you sort of made a suggestion about something to do with product lines and, you know, when things should be introduced or. And I remember being like, okay, yeah, no, that's fine. And I'm kicking myself because on reflection what he said, we absolutely 100% should have done because it later on caused us a problem by not doing that. So it's that thing of going, actually, at the time, you were the most junior members of the team. You're not anymore. But the fact is it's going. You have to listen to everyone because not absolutely every, as Daniel says, sometimes there's already a kind of a greater plan in play. And, you know, but actually it's really, it's very insightful for me to realize, you know, Harvey and other members of the team, they'll make a suggestion. Oh, have we thought about doing this? And thinking, yeah, we have, but I'm very impressed that you independently came to that. It shows you're thinking about things beyond the I need to sit at my desk and do my job. You know, and to Daniel's point about not wanting yes men, I mean, I think I'm very lucky working with Daniel because we have a very healthy working relationship, but it's also a very candid relationship. And, you know, on occasions where I've done things wrong, I've made mistakes, or, you know, I've been an idiot, he feels comfortable to tell me that. And other people, yeah, other managers, I think would be like, how dare someone talk to them? I'm like, no, Because I know the only way I can be the best managing director. The only way Fears can achieve its goals and become an incredible company is by having bright, smart people around you, but importantly, listening to them. And you mentioned the ego thing. It's going, yeah, I'm managing director. It's on my card, it's on my email. But fundamentally, yeah, it's the people around me that make the magic actually happen.
- [31:35]
Alon Joseph
Harvey dropped the third critical success Factor which Nicholas now solidified by now if you listen to the Real Time show if you've heard the previous two episodes only no fears, you know why they are British on a product level, on a design level, maybe even philosophy. I love the slogan elegantly understated says it all talking just last point on the managerial level of things I wouldn't say it's in British management style or is it not the old British manager style and are you the new frontrunner of the new British managerial style of running a company? Because within Europe let's not talk about the French, let's not talk about the Germans that definitely not talk about this.
- [32:33]
Daniel Varney
Swiss.
- [32:37]
Alon Joseph
I would listen know what my take is on that? My outside view of English management style is is it always has been a bit hybrid of being very hierarchical but the mid tier and lower tiers of management could be rebellious. They could either just do their own thing and hide with elegant speech and high te and then a lot of alcohol in evenings like the rest of the Europeans and, and, and let me stick up my hand the Dutch are not the best. I mean the reputation the world is the most bluntest of all maybe and it's forward and direct. So I what the Dutch have in common with the British is the dry sense of humor. So that's something that overlaps something that me as a Dutchman had big difficulties with British and that's almost similar to the Swiss is the art of ignoring questions simply not answering. Do you guys recognize that when I.
- [33:47]
Daniel Varney
Say that it comes from our politics, politicians answers they do ever watch prime minister's questions or the like. They are experts in avoiding questions, answering a different question, answering around the question and I think the trickle down effect to us is also very polite, very reserved. So in that sense rather not make offense by saying nothing. In some ways yeah.
- [34:08]
Alon Joseph
I always thought that debating was taught to A level students but it seems that it's taught at kindergarten or just to finish off this topic maybe Nicholas, do you want to answer my question about is it. Are we seeing a new trend in managerial bridge managerial styles or is it simply Bowman Scargill stuff?
- [34:33]
Nicholas Bowman-Scargill
It's interesting because I, I tend not to read very many sort of business books. I rather read biographies or autobiographies of successful people and from that try and pull out certain things of how they operate and what they do. So I can't say how I manage is through a very particular, you know, a formal, you know, training or anything like that. So I think there is a. I, I think there is a thing to be said for like actually let's create something, something new. But looking back at some of the ways in the past, I think it's very easy to throw the, the baby out with the bath water as it were.
- [35:17]
Alon Joseph
Switching gears. Daniel, Back to you, 2025.
- [35:20]
Daniel Varney
Yeah.
- [35:21]
Alon Joseph
I want to hear what can we expect of Fears? What do you expect from British watchmaking and then global go up the gears or the pyramid?
- [35:30]
Daniel Varney
What can you expect from Fears? Well, another momentous year, I would say. We have an extremely exciting release schedule that again, immediately we've been chopping and changing a bit. Some stuff is happening on a very fluid day by day basis but very exciting things are happening. And so again I won't give too much away but some very exciting, as you can imagine, product based developments this year, I mean from FEARS more generally. Again, more presence at the global watch shows and fairs. Time to watch us in Geneva again in their beautiful new premises Geneva watch days later in the year. Wind ups around the globe, et cetera, et cetera. So again you'll be seeing Fears in. I know we did 38 events in 25 countries, cities rather last year. That'd be no different this year, I'm sure in terms of the British industry. Well, I think the British Watchmakers Day event coming up on the 9th of March in London will be quite telling. Be interesting to see as a sort of dichotomy between how it was last year as to where it is this year. We'll see the kind of, I think the state of the state of the British side of the market there really in terms of new brands and how people progress with the year under their belt. I mean, I think everyone is in fairly firm agreement this a real renaissance of British watchmaking. So from our perspective, you know, we're one of the kind of stalwarts to that and very much one of the, you know, shining lights, I guess, or guiding lights. And we do whatever we can to assist the industry as a whole. Kind of some of the smaller brands that are coming up behind us, you know, I think Nicholas would agree with very much adopt the mantra of a rise and tide lifts all boats. So we're very excited to see what, you know, us fellow Brits and I think the one thing I would say is my experience at least. And again, I'm not sure the same can be said for, for other globalized watch sectors. But the British element at least is extremely collegiate in that regard. A great camaraderie. There's no, doesn't feel like we're competing against each other, even if you have crossover in terms of your sort of product Venn diagram, as it were, which I think is very healthy actually in that respect. And then globally, I mean, I'll be, I'll be perfectly honest. I mean, I'm not saying our outlook and viewpoint is entirely British centric, but in that respect, to be fair. And I also wouldn't say describe ourselves as inward looking, but we very much spend our time focusing on fears and what we want to achieve. I'm not saying we kind of block out the noise from the wider industry because of course we keep up to date with the trends and what's going on and industry developments, et cetera. But I'm not sure if I'm being perfectly honest. I can give too much of an insightful answer as to where I see the global market going is we're still very focused on what we're doing and kind of plot on our own path really and forging our own path, as I say. I mean, I do think there'll be perhaps some consolidation this year. I think, I'm not saying the market will retract, but I think that they'll certainly on the British side. And I'm sure the same could be said globally. Certain brands that had struggles in 2024, that will struggle still through 25 and then maybe it will be 26 by the time we see certain brands, you know, as I say, consolidating or, or I think in that sense that may well be a net positive for the industry because like with any market, you know, the ultimately the market decides what the market wants and as it should be. So in that sense, I think there'll be perhaps some attraction in that sense, but it will leave the things that I think actually to round off when we come up with a new Watch project, you know, when we talk about, you know, things potentially in that regard, it always comes back to this kind of central thesis of does it have a reason to exist? It has to have a story, it has to have a reason. It has to be, you know, it has to be a good design, of course, and we have to be able to make it. We have to have the components or the ability to procure them. But ultimately the one overriding thing I think that certainly myself, Nicholas and I, so senior team, when we look at projects, it has to pass the test of does this have a reason to exist? And I think in that sense, I think that is the question that perhaps the wider industry should be asking itself. Is everything that people are making right now and releasing. Do they all have a reason to resist and be a bit closer interrogation on that point?
- [39:45]
Alon Joseph
I think on that topic you said we don't do 10k yet I know what you do and that's actually very impressive because it's already passing the four digits if I may say so on the pod.
- [40:01]
Daniel Varney
Yes.
- [40:03]
Alon Joseph
The fierce owners club is growing rapidly then because if I do the math it's going quickly. So why does fear have the right of exist?
- [40:15]
Daniel Varney
Because you.
- [40:15]
Alon Joseph
I'm paraphrasing your both. So not only the models but as a watch brand because it is an impressive quantity on that level that you operate because I call you guys entry level for high end already not entry level per se. You are the stepping stone into not hotel luxury but definitely the high end. You're not mid tier, you don't want to be mid tier. That everything oozes luxury and definitely no pretentiousness. So why are you guys so successful?
- [40:54]
Daniel Varney
I mean it's like with anything, it's a, it's a cocktail of factors really. I think a lot of it is, is down to Nicholas I think, you know, you see last yesterday evening event here in Amsterdam, you know, an hour long speech including the Q and A and people hanging off every word, you know, long Q&As. Very insightful questions. But I think in that sense it's a very unique story. I mean it's quite. And again I can only speak from the perspective of how I felt about the brand before I worked there. So you know, I'm Bristol born, I was familiar. You know, I think I've been following fears Nicholas since not. Probably not long after the restart. So I've always been familiar with, you know, and a watch fan and had always thought at some stage I'll add a fears to my collection when I'm in the market for a dress watch will be a fierce watch that, that connection. And from the outside looking in, if I take a step back and figure how I perceive the brand, it's very rare in this day, you know, it's not rare to find brands that have been relaunched and brought back from the archives and someone's bought the IP and they've, they've brought the name out again. But I think to have it refounded by, you know, a later generation of the same family is quite a rarity. Again, you know, we don't just say it for effect. We are, you know, paradoxically one of Britain's oldest and youngest watch companies at the same time. Which is, you know, there aren't no one else can say that, you know, and I think you can just have the brand and the heritage. You've then got to follow that over the product. And our product mix has been great and continues to and we're building upon that. You know, we have an exceptionally good design team of which you're familiar with and again, for a company of our size to have an in house design team is quite a rarity. So I think, you know, we've done things the right way. You know, we, we've grown slowly but sustainably and in that, and to that end at least we're now primed for, for, you know, for a real ascendancy I think into what we are a.
- [42:38]
Alon Joseph
Small independent going from the islands of Great Britain. You're very successful abroad. Anglo Saxon market in the United States, the biggest watch market the last few years, which might on paper seem logical due to the Anglo Saxon heritage, but is not that natural because the American market is not that mature, very focused on sports models which you don't have. So why are you so successful in the United States or North America for that matter? I don't know if Canada is doing well, but that's North America.
- [43:20]
Daniel Varney
Yeah, Canada's growing for sure. I mean we did our first event into first Canadian event in Toronto last year and have seen a real uptick since and we'll be doing more Canadian events this year. So Canada's a growth market as well for us. I mean, I think it's a, it's a mixture of things again of course, you know, for any Brit going to America will know full well that the Americans are very fond of the British.
- [43:41]
Alon Joseph
Are they though?
- [43:42]
Daniel Varney
I would say for the most part, yes. I mean certainly in my experience, you know, we were across several states for several weeks last year and I think if to be fair in that regard, saw that opportunity early and from 2018 onwards has been doing regular trips to the United States. I think in some ways their kind of core collector base in that sense respect the fact that we go to them and take our watches out, you know, go through the rigmarole of doing a carne and temporarily exporting, then temporary re importing, et cetera. You know, not a lot of brands do that in that sense. So we got kind of boots on the ground and have really actually made a point of flying over multiple times a year and putting watches on wrist and then building that core base and span from there. But I mean, you know, the, the watch that you're in now, the coral jump. How is one of the most popular models stateside. So I think they like our playful use of color as well. So maybe has. Whilst we don't have the sportiest lineup in that sense, they, they do, you know, they're like, they like some of the, the more, you know, sort of playful, as I say, areas of our, of our line. And then that's still that, that classical British elegance in that sense. I mean it's hard to put a price on that in some regards. And it certainly resonates with the American watch buyer.
- [44:51]
Alon Joseph
As the Americans say the extra mile. You've proven that you do not take an extra mile, you do 100 extra plus extra avalanche.
- [45:00]
Daniel Varney
Yeah.
- [45:00]
Alon Joseph
I also think that a critical success factor and I'm gearing back the story to retailers is it seems, and on objective and it's no pun intended to the beautiful dao of the Redcliffe collection, the cherry picking of retailers. You don't go for the Patek dealers or the Rolex dealers, but it seems that you do choose good retailers being a very subjective term of good. So how do you choose partnerships with retail and why did you go into retail at the beginning?
- [45:38]
Daniel Varney
Well, I think it's very fair to say we have a very carefully curated selection of retailers across the globe. What we refer to as our network of fierce authorized stockists. Now again, there's not one key determining factor as to why we approach one and not another, for instance. So we're certainly not averse to being in retailers that stop the pack or Rolex, you know, at that regard is more. It's like with anything, I think we treat our retail network the same as we treat our suppliers, same as we treat our end clients, you know, but that same kind of wraparound luxury service. And it's about relationships, of course, you know, we have relationships with our key clients. We've got hundreds of several hundred people in the fears owners club that we speak to on a regular basis. We have extremely good relationships with our suppliers, hence why, you know, we can use top tier continental suppliers that perhaps other brands of our stature and size perhaps wouldn't be able to. And then I think the same applies to our retailers, you know, in that regard. So it's, I mean about relationship building. It's about. And of course, you know, Nicholas always says, you know, he's got to be a custodian of the fier's name and his family name is on the dial. So he's very selective. Not about where we make what we make rather, but also where is where it's stocked. So there has to be a sort of professional symbiosis in that sense and a synergy that regard to someone that's kind of treat the brand well, understand it, educate their clients as to why they should be considering affairs. For us that's just as important that you know, certainly a case of, of, of where we are and who we're with as opposed to just as many doors as possible.
- [47:09]
Alon Joseph
Traveling past the Atlantic, leapfrogging over the uk, continental Europe. Now I'm looking at Harvey. You're a Red Bar member?
- [47:22]
Daniel Varney
Yes.
- [47:22]
Alon Joseph
You guys do a lot of Red Bar events. Yesterday we had another one we literally left here midnight. Ish. And we were very early here to record before the boutique opens for our dear listeners. If Rob did not edit out the phone ringing, I apologize. But the majority of the listeners like the fact that we sit in the lines then of the boutique. I record here so they hear the real hustle bustle. We did not discuss last night because we were knackered, as the English say. Harvey, how did you perceive the initial launch of the British brand fears on continental Europe? We're not far from each other. We literally can swim the channel like the herring and the soul do back and forth. And we can debate who invented fish and chips, the Dutch or the English.
- [48:10]
Daniel Varney
There's no debate there.
- [48:11]
Alon Joseph
But remember your royal house is Dutch. Don't forget gentlemen. Now Harvey, any parallels or any differences in the response and the perception of the launch of the brand here by consumers yesterday?
- [48:29]
Harvey Butler
I think from my experience I've, I've joined the brand when it was a bit more established than years prior. But in the Americas, in, in North America, people are familiar with the fear story and so they'll, they'll come up to the stand or the, the table already familiar with Nicholas and they've seen them online and they're finally waiting to get a hands on. Whereas last night and within with this Red Bar, people were of course familiar with Nicholas, but the experience was different. When you were teaching about the brand and, and kind of discussing it, they were more drawn to the build quality of the watch and the design and viewing. It is a wristwatch first and the brand story second. Whereas previously, at least I've had experience with enthusiasts that you know, they, they like the story and the, the watches is what's. They've been drawn to the watch because of the story as opposed to the other way around last night which was, it was a beautiful watch and the story was the cherry on top.
- [49:36]
Alon Joseph
Any differences or similarities with the other red bars specifically to Spears that you've experienced is. Are. Because you've also traveled stateside, as they call the U.S. any. Do they gravitate to different models, different braces, different dial colors?
- [49:53]
Harvey Butler
I think is Daniel. And well, we're all aware the coral has been popular ones. So in. In North America, it is the loud dial. So the cherry red, the coral, the jump hour in general.
- [50:05]
Nicholas Bowman-Scargill
Yeah.
- [50:06]
Harvey Butler
Whereas the Brunswick 38 was getting a lot of wrist time last night. So the more subdued, classic, elegant one. And I, you know, I'm sure there's some psychology behind it all there, but it's interesting to see the differences. Yeah.
- [50:21]
Alon Joseph
And what clients prefer, would you say the Dutch taste then is. Is maybe a bit closer to the English, British wine? I would say so. Are there similarity?
- [50:30]
Daniel Varney
Yeah, I would. I would say so, yes. In that. In that regard, it's different the world over, of course, and that's why you need to have a. A broad range catering for different tastes, you know, different case sizes, shapes, colors and the like. But I would say yes, actually, on reflection now you ask. There are certainly some similarities in taste and subjectivity. I think the Dutch side to the UK certainly the. The ratio of what watches had the most risk, time and the most love here would be, you know, would be reflective of if we were to sort of done a red bar somewhere in the United Kingdom.
- [51:04]
Alon Joseph
So I know you get a lot of dealership requests. You actually turn down a lot. So I'm very humbled and honored that we made the cut here in Amsterdam. Many retailers also listen to the pod. What does it take for them to be eligible to be a fierce partner?
- [51:19]
Daniel Varney
As I alluded to previously, there's no sort of set criteria in that regard. I think it's, you know, and again, you know, much like when Nicholas was talking about what makes a fierce person when we. When we recruit, it's kind of a similar principle here. It's, you know, is. Is it the right fit or is it not? And I can put a, you know, a specific framework on that. I think we kind of just know it when you know it, if you will. But again, of course, you know, we are very much open to expanding our retail network organically and sustainably. You know, Amsterdam been the heart of Europe. This, you know, ace very much. We were big, big fans and was important to us. You see, this is kind of the jewel and the crown of European watch retail. So we are humbled and honored as well to have solidified our partnership. But we'll certainly be looking at building upon that on continental Europe Specifically, as you know, but again, the world over. But Europe is certainly an important market for us and I think certainly post, post Brexit, there's made even more of a heightened importance of having physical retail presence on the continent itself. So that is certainly something that we will be looking at, at forging ahead with this year. Perfect.
- [52:29]
Alon Joseph
Remind me to send you an invoice for that compliment. So I would like to round off this episode with A, an invitation to come back on and B, I want to know of each of you what your favorite model is in the current collection. So you can't cheat, Nicholas, because you're wearing the number one first ever piece made by Fierce.
- [52:55]
Daniel Varney
Well, I'll.
- [52:56]
Nicholas Bowman-Scargill
I'll let Harvey go first.
- [52:57]
Harvey Butler
Oh, well, as the team are aware, I've been wearing the cherry red a lot recently. The cherry red Redcliffe, it's. It's not come off my wrist and you know, normally. Well, I like it because it's a bit big. It's bigger than what I'd go for, but the dial, it has a bit of depth to it, which means my small 6 and a half inch wrist fits it perfectly. So, yeah, I've been wearing that a lot. It's my favorite.
- [53:24]
Daniel Varney
I mean, for me, I'm not actually wearing it today ironically, but the Brunswick 38 Polar White, I mean, it's as classical as it gets, really. It goes with everything. I tend to wear it on the bracelet, but again, it's equally as good on any strap, actually. It's what they're. I know the people refer to as a strap monster or. We do, certainly. Yeah. I mean, I just, again, it's the charm as well. I mean, it's been in our collection since 2017 and they will never leave again. I love all of the watches that we make in Italy, but the Brunswick 38 Polar White, I think sometimes you can't beat the classics.
- [53:56]
Nicholas Bowman-Scargill
For me, it has to be the Redcliffe Puter Gray. It's a watch. I wear the prototype almost, almost every single day for the last year and a half. It's just a classic everyday watch. And once I put a watch on in the morning, after the first 10 minutes, it's then a tool for the day ahead and I just absolutely love it.
- [54:13]
Alon Joseph
Thank you, gentlemen, for this lovely conversation and sitting down with me this early in the morning. And thank you, dear listeners, for taking the time to actually sit out this hour and listen to the episode. You can find all our previous episodes, including the other two with Fierce Watch Company on our official website, www.therealtime.show you can find us on Instagram herealtime show. If you want to support the show, please subscribe, like rate and share it with your friends. If you have any questions, feedback and or criticism, please do send us a message. You can also DM us. If you want to join the TRTS community on WhatsApp. You can find Scarlett on the gram via Carl in the Shire. Here's the spelling S c a r l I n t h e S h I r e David you can find at Dava u c h e r Rob o b n u d d s and me. You just write my first and last name together along with Joseph. And if you prefer to send us an email, you can just add our first name to the handle at therealtime. Dutch Stay sane and keep on ticking.