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- [00:00]
Pierre Biver
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Rob Nudds
Watch fans. And welcome back to the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Nudds. I'm joined by the friendly neighborhood jeweler, of course, Alain Ben Joseph, back in his hometown of Amsterdam. And on the other end of the line, we have a very special guest, someone who has finally closed the circle of the Real Time show interviews. We have Pierre Biver. I'm going to hand it over to Alain to introduce one of his favorite people in the watchmaking world.
- [00:29]
Alain Ben Joseph
Pierre, welcome.
- [00:31]
Pierre Biver
Thank you very much, guys. It's a pleasure to be on the show and thank you for the nice comments.
- [00:37]
Alain Ben Joseph
The pleasure is all ours. And we owe an apology to our dear listeners because Pierre already confirmed to come on the show over 18 months ago. But we got a bit overwhelmed by the quantity of content we've created, so we created quite a backlog. So we said, you know what, let's start 26 with some fresh wind in the horological world. Because, Pierre, if I count correctly, back in time, your dad and you created the Beware Watch brand or launched it at watches and wonders 23, if I'm not mistaken you guys.
- [01:23]
Pierre Biver
To be 100% precise, as we are in the business of making precision objects, or at least we try to. We actually launched the idea of creating the brand just before watches and wonders 2022. At this stage, it was just an idea and we were sort of puzzling out what the brand was going to look like. But we were already present at Watches and Wonders that year, you know, just speaking to few journalists, retailers and suppliers as well. And then we officially launched the brand with an actual product in 2023.
- [02:00]
Alain Ben Joseph
Indeed. So we actually missed you upon the invitation your dad sent us. I remember vividly in that suite. And we had a blast with your dad, the energy in the room. And I fell off my chair because I saw a wonderful book on the coffee table lying around there. And that's actually where I got to know you without you being present in the room. And I already had a high esteem of you. Now, we're not going to talk about you that in this show. For those that might be new to the watch world or the world of collecting watches and are not that familiar with the Beaver family, I highly recommend to scroll back to the first ever interview we've done on the Real Time show, which is the second episode with Jean Claude Biver. That's Biver Sr. We want to look forward and not so much backwards. So that begs the question, Pierre, you're very young, very intelligent and very smart, but Very young. Was it always evident for you that you wanted to continue your career in the watch world?
- [03:10]
Pierre Biver
No, it wasn't always evident for me. Quite the contrary. In fact, it's something that came quite late in my life. My passion for watches in general and even the desire to actually work in the watch industry. I think growing up, you know, there was this sort of feeling at home that we weren't so sensitive to watches and horology as people might think, not because we weren't exposed to it, but more because we were overexposed to it. Meaning, you know, my father, he used to come with journalists at home, with retailers, suppliers or. And he would have prototypes lying around. They would talk about watches, his collection. It was so much. And my father is somebody who's. And luckily, that's something that's been passed on and it feels great. He's somebody that always looked at business as an extension of his life. So there were. He never really had a professional life and a private life. There was just. It was just his life that he lived to the fullest and always mixed both worlds, which taught me and my brothers and sisters a great deal about just life in general and knowing the industry in a very organic way. But growing up, I wanted to become an architect and have nothing to do with watchmaking. Most importantly, because many people would always say, oh, you're going to do the same thing as your father. You're going to work in watches. And, you know, when you're young, sometimes your hormone levels are. Are a bit irregular, you have a bit of a feisty attitude, and you're like, no, I'm not going to do this. I don't care about watches, it's boring. But luckily enough for me, I. My passion for watchmaking caught me before it was too late. When I was about 18 years old, 17, something like this, I was about to graduate from high school. And before my exams, my father played a dirty trick on me that I recommend every parent to do, is that he gifted me an old Blancpain from the days that he used to own the company before I passed the exam, saying, this is for the fact that you're going to pass the exam. Which was obviously not so much pressure on my shoulders after that, but seeing that timepiece and, you know, most of my life, realistically, I've been exposed to my father's career whilst he was working for Hublot, Tag Heuer and Zenith. So it was another type of watches, very different from Blancpain. And so maybe it's the fact that seeing that Vintage Blancpain opened my eyes to an era of watchmaking that I had not necessarily actively interested myself in that I thought to myself, wow, this is actually quite interesting, what's going on there. And in addition to that, you know, when you're 18, you start having. Start going out, you know, you're going to have your driving license, you're going to be a bit more independent, and you. I felt maybe today has changed, but also as being a man or a boy still at that age, that having a watch was like an essential marker of a certain coming of age and passing a certain stage in my life. And I really wanted, between that product and the whole atmosphere it really wanted, it really made me want to learn more about the history of watchmaking, something that I had been less exposed to than maybe the current industry or more modern history of watchmaking that I had been exposed to at home. And this is how things started. And then it all went downhill from there. Spiral down.
- [06:36]
Rob Nudds
We know about the spiral. Yeah, you have our sympathies. You graduated from high school. I assume you passed the exam and that Blancpain was well earned. What happened immediately afterwards? Did you already have educational trajectory set in mind when you were at high school? And did you follow that through as planned, or did you pivot and change at that age?
- [06:58]
Pierre Biver
So, to make a long story short, because then we have to get into Swiss educational system. But yes, I had planned to go study architecture in Lausanne, my hometown in Switzerland. And right before university was about to start, I had a change of heart. It was mostly due to me being a bit too young, still immature, and I decided to go to study economics, Honestly. And I know that the people who listen, they also want those type of details, but honestly, it was really mostly because I thought to myself, I don't have the motivation to work enough to become an architect. So I said, you know, economics will be a bit easier. I was. I was mistaken. But so I started university at that moment, and still being immature quickly, I realized that I had sort of had too much following up from directly from high school without any sort of transition. And that's the time where I told my parents, you know, I don't want to. I want to do. You know, I want to study, I want to have a. A university degree, but I want to do something a bit different, have more experience of life. I want to travel. I never left Switzerland at that point, obviously, as a tourist, but I wanted to do an experience abroad. And I thought to myself, you know what? Let's. Let's Try and find something else. And this was when my parents very wisely said, we have no issues in you stopping university. We'll keep supporting you as long as you do something, you're not just roaming around. So we want you to find an internship, find a job and do something that keeps you busy. And this was when I asked them if I could work in the era of vintage watches, because at that time that was what I was interested in learning. And this is how I eventually ended up at Philips in London as an intern there, which was a very formative period of my life and it was an amazing experience.
- [09:03]
Rob Nudds
So talk to us about the time frame then. How long were you with Philips? Was that six months, a year, or however long, and then you came back to Switzerland immediately and started on your next great chapter?
- [09:15]
Pierre Biver
No, it was. I joined in late 2018, early 2019, and I left Philips in 2020. 2020 in March when Covid and the Pandemic. My God, it's crazy to talk about that era and you feel like it's so long ago, but it's in our memories. It was yesterday, but so the lockdown came into. Into being. And at that stage I thought to myself, look, I'm not gonna stay in London and be stuck in an apartment there. I'd rather come back home and be with my family. And by that time I also had a desire to go back to university. I felt like it was sort of catching up on me in my professional life at Philips, that I needed to have more academic background and something that I could have sort of the safety net with as well. So I decided to come back to Switzerland and then I started university again. Same program, same university, Economics. I worked through Covid the first year, which was pretty good for me because we were working from home, you know, we had remote access to all the classes. It was not very social. But luckily enough I had already good friends in my hometown and that wasn't affecting me too much, contrary to other maybe young people at that time. But it enabled me to keep doing on the side and arranging my time so that I could keep on going. Interest and also a few business, few deals here and there, mostly related to vintage watches. At the same time I was, I was in university, so it wasn't yet this big chapter that Biver is. It was. It was a transitional period again, but where I think I gained a lot of maturity because again, I don't want to go too deep where it's talk about watches, but I think that watches make us all sit around the table and talk about life on a more broader perspective. But at that time when I went back to university, I was 20 and I had been a bit at university, I had worked a bit. And something I saw was different to some of my classmates in that year is that I knew exactly what I was going to university for, meaning I knew that I wanted to keep the trajectory of working in the sort of auction watch, vintage watch world. I knew that I wanted to stay there, but I knew that I needed some structure, some knowledge, some more concrete ideas in terms of how, how to build a business and things like that. So that motivation and that focus of knowing why you're here really changed my university experience. And then I'm, I don't want to monopolize the speech, but then the transition from this to right now, because from 2020, 2022 is not a very long, long time frame is that I was in my second year of university at that time. I had a small, small job with a big watchmaking company. I can't name it, but it was, it was an interesting time. It was just a part time job that I was doing with, with a friend of mine. And at some point in, in that time my father had bicycle accident. He was fully retired at that point. You know, he hasn't, he had no professional activities at all at that moment in time. And we had talked previously in the past two years about making a brand, buying a brand. It was, it was unclear. There was motivation and there was the sparks of a potential, a potential project, but nothing that was firm and inscribed in, in paper. And when he came out of the hospital after his recovery time, he told me, you know what, I, I think that this is a lesson and it, it teaches me that life can be over quite quickly and we need to, we need to hurry up and do a brand. And I, he was hesitant, he was always really hesitant to use the name Biver for very understandable reasons that we're not watchmakers. So uh, he has the credibility in the market and the history and he's been through it all. And he's a, in terms of purely watch related but also outside of watches, he's a bigger than life type of character but he's not a watchmaker. And some realities you can't, you can't compensate for. And this was one of his main fears before and I think his accent really made me, made him change his mind and say, you know what, what, I can't change my name. It's useless to try and hide behind it. We have to Face things on, you know, the way they are and make the best out of the situation. And so he launched the brand and at that moment there was no plan for me realistically to go back to university that year because with his accident and he had ongoing things with his collection, he had also always, we've had in the family, you know, a few other professional things going on. And at that time, as I was really close to my father and I was really the only one who, who shared in most of the, his business ventures he had at that time, I took over while he was at the hospital and unfortunately that was, you know, just too much workload to, to keep working at uni. So I would have had to do my second year over. So I had a few months ahead. And you know, when my father, he says a lot of things and then you need to wait for them to actually happen. And it happened fairly quickly this time. You know, he, we talked about it one evening. The next morning he was on a radio show announcing that he would do it. And that afternoon we had about 6,000 emails from all over the world saying what's up? What's the deal? I want to be in, I want to buy one, I want to be a retailer, I want to be a supplier. What are you doing? Give us an exclusive interview and things like that. And, and things kicked off like this pretty, pretty, pretty chaotic. I mean this is a very Beaver style. Alan, fortunately enough for us, because we're super happy to have him now as a, as a partner of the brand has managed to see in such a short time working with us that, you know, we are very dynamic. With us it's like a sports car. You know, we're capable of accelerating very quickly and then breaking very quickly. We don't, sometimes we need to learn to be more balanced. But it was very chaotic and then we put everything into place and that led up to be there and what most of you know, what you guys know about the brand launching, big minute repeater complication, carry on tourbillon. Then a year with that many art, many art, you know, metedat artistry, engraving and things like that. Then the automatique, which is an essential chapter of our life until today. Yeah, that's sort of the synopsis for the movie that we'd have to make hopefully in 50 years.
- [16:26]
Rob Nudds
You know, it's difficult to be pilot in one of those high level sports cars that can take off at, you know, 100 miles an hour. But the intentionality that you had at a young age must have been A massive advantage. To know why you'd gone back to education, to have that vision of what you expected from yourself and from life thereafter, even if it hadn't fully taken shape, is something that most young people don't have. I've always thought this myself. When I went to university, I went there because I was just following a path. I was. It's like being in a river, being carried towards a destination I'd never really considered. And I felt it wasn't until after I graduated, when I decided, oh, I want to become a watchmaker, that I realized that if only I'd had that knowledge at a younger age, which generally does come with experience. The experience you had from stepping out of the formal education structure and going to work at Philips, you can't get without having tasted a little bit of life. But it puts you a few steps ahead and ready to take on a challenge like founding the Beware brand. Now, of course, your dad's not a watchmaker, but I think the response to the announcement that you were about to launch a new venture together proves he is. He is more than that. In many ways, he is a figure almost like the son of the industry around which many things orbit watchmakers and journalists and retailers and the like. And everybody would want to be close to that. That when you first had those conversations about not just starting the brand, but deciding what the brand would be, that must have been pretty tough to. To drill down to very quickly. Are you happy with the models that you launched with, or do you think now, if you'd had more time, you would have started with something else? Or do you think it was all about the process of figuring it out on the go?
- [18:12]
Pierre Biver
You're a very good interviewer because you now are dragging me slowly but slowly in uncharted territories. But it's an excellent question. And Alan will obviously mute me as soon as he feels that I'm going overboard. I don't have my marketing director with me. Good. Realistically, yes, it was a really tough time. First of all, I have to acknowledge that, you know, my father and myself, we don't, although we get along really well and we have this amazing common, this passion common of watchmaking. We don't necessarily have the same view of watchers, independent watches, complications. It's completely normal. And this was something that I needed to learn as well, and I've learned a lot in the past four years, is to learn to comprehend where people are coming from. And he's coming from 50 years working in industry where, yes, he's seen Those evolutions and where it's brought us until today. But his foundational moments were in the 80s and you can't never take that out of the person. You can never change that. And when I struggled to really see that, that was where he was coming from. And then knowing all that hublot era and sort of the 2000s, that were like this mighty period of a new style of watchmaking, a new approach to marketing and like this grandeur poke of watchmaking. And now, now we have this shift back towards independent and something more classic, more vintage, inspired. And it was, it was. We had a bit of conflict on that. And I think the carillon tourbillon is very much a piece that is at his. At is at his image in the sense that it represents. It's very imbued with a lot of his principles in terms of either the complication, the design, the size, the brute force it represents. Because I don't know if you've had a carillon in the hand, but compared to the automatic, it's a watch. First of all, it's titanium. Most of them are in titanium. It's hefty. You have a big tourbillon. It's a watch that has a brute force. And for people who have been around my father, either professionally as, you know, collectors or people in the industry, he's known to have this real brute force. So this what truly embodies him the way he is. He's somebody that just, you know, Is raw and everything he does. And I would have done things, yes, a bit differently, but it was a very formative launch and it taught us a lot about the market, about our truth as well. And it enabled us to really evolve into the automatic, which is maybe something where I have a bit. There's a bit more of me inside and a bit more of the team because we're. My father has, you know, many things where as a son you say, this is annoying, this is annoying. But also one of his big, big, big strengths in life is to know how to surround himself. And he's never afraid to surround himself of really young people. So. And like the close team we have here, the management team in Biver, we have maybe an average age of 32, which is, you know, super young, especially for watchmaking and the watchmaking industry. And, you know, he still trusts us after this, the first launch to bring him and the brand into the automatique and what's going to come next, which is, you know, more polished, smaller, another. Even another way of being really con. Conceptualized from the movement to the case, to everything. And yeah, I would have probably, if it was me, I would have gone the easy route of maybe releasing the automatic first. Easy, because obviously you start by, let's say, the fundamentals. But my father always said, you know, the fact that we are not watchmakers, the fact that we need to prove to the world that, you know, we're capable of doing this, he was very, he was very clear minded about those realities. He said, I want to do this. And it's going to be more of a statement to show this is what we're capable of doing. And I think it. It also demonstrated something from the brand, from the motivation, and it demonstrated something which is part of the brand identity, which is to say, like, you know, we. We're striving to make the best possible. And it also created something that is amazing for me is it created the fact that we can move on from there, I think something that you'll see. And we're really trying to move the brand into something that feels more this way. But we want it to feel very family like, we want it to feel very ownable. We want people that want to be associated with the brand, either as friends, partners, or collectors, to feel like they're part of our coming of age. And it's the story of a father and a son. It's a transition. It's also a generation that's coming up with new ideas, a new market, a difficult environment to work in because, you know, look at the state of the world right now. It's ever changing. We've gone through many different phases. And today, even the model of how the supply chain is working for independence is changing. Everything is moving. And I think we want to really own that. That movement, that constant momentum towards change. And the carillon was a perfect way of doing it.
- [24:06]
Alain Ben Joseph
You might have not graduated as an architect, dear Pia, but you are not a singular architect. You are a double architect. Because for those people that always explain what mechanical watchmaking is about and what a watchmaker does, a character and that doesn't need to be the one that really screws the screws in. It can be the concept is making a caliber is an architect. You're building from the ground up. You need to think in 3D. Everything needs to work. It's actually more complex than an architect. Although if there's moving parts in the building, fine. Now, a bit metaphorically, a brand builder is also an architect. It's layered. You need to build up. And I know you're a big storyteller and you're big on stories. You've gave us a few things to unpack in your monologue. And please keep the monologue going because Rob and I are flies on the wall. We're only here to steer the ship a bit. But you're the captain. What I wanted to unpack and maybe to touch upon. You've gave us a little glimpse on what you've set out, your father knew and the team for the brand be there, maybe shed a light on what was it in mission, vision, strategy, if we're talking as a brand builder, and then distill it into the products. So you've set out, did I understand correctly? You've set out it to be the best of the best?
- [25:44]
Pierre Biver
Definitely. I think that in terms of the mission is to create obviously for our eyes always the most close to perfect watches. We can both in terms of mechanics, aesthetics, ways of producing, because we are one of the components to the brand is that we are part of a group of brands today, which puts a lot of emphasis in the way we produce the calibers, the pieces in general, even what we call abiage case and dial. As much as, you know, as much as the aesthetics. We look at how to produce them and we have a series of sort of guidelines in terms of product quality that we follow in terms of even the techniques that we use to achieve the end result. So there is this really sort of engineer led idea of how do we make the most complete and perfect timepiece each time. Even my father says master the invisible. And often he's talking about decorating things like we decorate underneath the hands or underneath the dial that is never seen. But there's also the invisible in terms of is the way you produce your caliber sustainable? Is the materials you use going to be able, are you going to be able to restore them in 50 years? How's the quality? How does it feel on the wrist? The ergonomics. There are many things that are invisible and we envision in terms of what we think is a great watch and how we want it to be. You know, how do we see it come together? This is really the, the, the. The mission of the brand and the vision. Obviously we know that this is something that is a really hard goal. And I just think in life it's great to have a philosophy where you always have a mission that is too high to accomplish, that is always too high to. To beat. But it's what keeps the thrive, it's what keeps you, you know, wanting to get there. But you know, and you know the goal is so high that you'll never get there and at the same time keeping some standards that can evolve with you while you get on the way. So for us it's about really having this objective of creating the perfect watch in our eye and, and along the way always doing incremental changes to our products and just our outlook on what's good in a product to make it better and always constantly improving. And to give you an example of this is for instance, on the carillon we had the metal bracelet which we designed, we fully designed ourselves a five row bracelet and it had this integrated attached to the case. And one of the reasons we wanted to do this is that in terms of the sounding of the repeater with a titanium case, we thought that having everything really screwed together would create a better environment for the sound and for the automatic. For instance, we realized that lots of clients were like, we like the metal bracelet, but on this type of watches we're more used to buying them on straps rather than bracelets. And our attach wasn't really made for it to be to the integration. We couldn't really remove it, but it wasn't so seamless. So we decided to change that whole concept a bit with the Automati that now has a bracelet that can be fitted and unfitted to watch very easily with a straight end link. And for instance, at the beginning for us it seemed so natural to make an integrated bracelet. And then slowly and slowly when we start thinking about yeah, but how do we think about client personalization of their watch? If they want a bracelet, if they want a strap, how can we make it easier? So we then developed something that would make it more convenient on the Automatique. And then on the next steps, the next bracelets, we worked on making it an easy adjustment. And the crown has to be big enough so that you have a nice winding sensation. All those small details that just package the timepieces we create to make them each time better and always with a certain set of rules that we try to follow to get, get to that unreachable goal. That's a bit the way we, we structure the brand. Today we're in a really interesting phase because we're sort of in the second phase of the automatic release. If again and I, I'm, I'm, I have the I'm sorry for my monologue. But in addition to that, I, I'm, I'm, I want to give you the most like raw vision on what the brand is today. And if you look at the first chapter of the carry on. There's a lot of noise, a lot of figuring out who we are, big complications, lots of artwork, really high end timepieces that need a lot of mastery. And we sort of complete this chapter. Then we move into the Automatique, which is exposing the biver identity both aesthetically, mechanically and understanding who we are and being more ownable to the. I hate to. I don't want to use this word, but my lack of vocabulary doesn't give me any other. But to the broader collective that's more accessible. Again, I hate this word but you understand where what I'm trying to get to. And this really opened the doors to the inner world of the atelier of the company, to us, and it created momentum as well. And now we're on the second stage of the Automatique where it's established product and now we can really have, I don't want to say more fun, but different type of fun, you know, with more Dell configuration, something that's a bit more out there. We've established a product and now we can really build on it. And now we're in the phase alongside the second phase of the automatic is the phase where we want to brand. We want to build who we are as a brand. What is our brand identity? What do we stand for and really go deeper in terms of establishing an identity and becoming, you know, standing on our own two feet. We're a teenager right now and the next stages will make us hopefully become adults.
- [31:51]
Rob Nudds
It's dawning on me as you speak that you are in an incredibly unusual position. You almost have to, because of the reputation that precedes the brand. Be there, build the brand backwards. What I mean by that is when a new maker comes on the scene, the biggest problem they have initially is recognition. It's awareness, it's getting eyes on the brand, what they want to do. And so they have to build out a universe almost before they flood it with good products. Now, the advantage you have is that the minute your father announced that you were going to pursue this project Together, you had 6,000 emails in your box. So you're like, okay, well we can sell probably anything. But then to create a brand that is sustainable from a product perspective and has an identity, has a real soul, the level of discernment you have to apply as a team to the products you're producing thereafter is through the roof. Now that obviously is a nice position to be in in some ways, but it's a huge amount of pressure to be a custodian of that Name that gets off the line so quickly but is expected to exist not for 1, 2, 5, 10 years, but for generations thereafter. You obviously have a very keen eye, you're obviously very focused on creating the best possible product that you can. But how important is it to you to look out from beyond your castle to the entirety of the industry and bring in those opinions that can lead you in the direction that you need to be led to ensure that the products you're producing live up to the expectation that comes with the name. Be there. Do you pull in experts from the field already? Do you train people in house? Do you put that weight on your own shoulders? How do you do it practically?
- [33:54]
Pierre Biver
So we really, I think the simple answer is that we put it on our, on shoulders. But the reality is that we have a very open ear to the market. What's being said, what people think, what people feel. Most importantly, and I think this comes also as one of our advantages is also the fact that we started off by being already really well implemented in the market, meaning within the collectors, in with, with collectors and just with the industry as a whole. We already had our ins, let's say, which as every good thing in life has its counterbalance, you know, but we try to be, to really listen, we try to take as much feedback as we can. Obviously we've as a team, we have the maturity altogether when we sit down to be able sometimes to distinguish what's good feedback, what's useful feedback, what's maybe just noise. And we managed to really shape the future of the brand by looking into, you know, the reception we have. Nevertheless, it's really important for me to put a important point there that at the heart of the company for us it's like a two, two headed animal. It's there's on one side our teams, especially our teams in the atelier are also our engineers that lead, that are the heart of the company internally and you know, will be the, the, the team that brings us up in the future and our clients and collectors, they are our number one priority and it's really with them that we try to make the brand and the future of the brand. I really consult regularly with, you know, collectors of the company, collectors that have an automatic, collectors that have a repeater. If I'm building something new, I'll send them you image, a render. What do you think of this? Where do you think the company should be? How do you think we should tackle this situation? And we really try to build a family and that people that want to buy into the Brand, don't only buy into the brand, but buy into a family on a broader level and feel like they have a voice here. It's not to discriminate people and say that if you don't have a watch, you shouldn't have an opinion. Quite the contrary. I'm always in contact with lots of media journalists, bloggers and you know, people that have really interesting insights on, on the industry. In fact, this is, you know, one of how, how also we. We really bonded with, with Alan together is just talking about our, you know, our outlook on, on brands in general from any price point, any esthetics, just lovers of horology and wanting to live in this, in this world. It's important like in life to know that you can live by being yourself. Meaning that when you listen, it's also important to reach a certain maturity. And this is what I mean by standing on your two feet is that learn how to listen without losing who you are. Because in the end of the day, the people that have supported you, that the people who are with you, the people that want to help you, the people that want to see you succeed and grow, they're the ones who want you to be yourself, they don't want to, they don't want you to become a replica. And this is something that's really important for us. But we are also really privileged to live in an era where independent watchmaking is very, I don't know how you say in English, in French is collegial. It means like all independents are very friendly to each other with some that have that own suppliers or that are producing some pieces for others. We work with independence and with a few of them, in fact, we discuss, we exchange our experiences and we also learn from them. Obviously what we bring to the table as a brand, Biver specifically is that we are one of those brands that have put a focus on engineers. At the top of our technical director is a watch constructor who has multiple world records and who's just. He's too humble when I. He doesn't like it when I say that. But he's a total star in terms of movement construction. But he also comes, being an engineer from a supply chain mentality, knowing how CNC machines operate, how do you produce a piece, how do you produce a movement, the techniques that go within and things like that. So it's interesting to take his experience, that's really essential, share it with some of our colleagues from the independent world, but also look at what they're doing, that is sometimes more. I don't want to say artisanal, but sometimes more, you know, what you were talking about. An independent that starts off, buys a machine, makes his own, you know, first wheels and things like that. And I think your, your, your analysis is completely right. We're sort of taking, you know, we're starting a fire from the top and going down as where often what happens is you start a fire from small wood and then in, you know, flames go up. But yeah.
- [39:11]
Alain Ben Joseph
So you've said you're collegial, which you guys are. You truly love watches. And I know that as hands on hanging out with you, you respect the, the entry level. Talking about Baltic, going to the legends, which are Patek Philippe and Rolex. For our collectors and listeners that might not be that familiar with your collection, who would you consider being the collegial peers of the brand and the watches that bear the Beware name? And maybe while you do that and put on the monologue hat again, please continue. Of how much you guys do in house, you just refer to your master engineer and maker, let's call them that way. I've discovered in my research you guys really want to be the best of the best. I'm a huge fan of micro rotors. Wearing one today, showing it to the screen while we're looking at it. But there are a lot of disadvantages to micro rotors. So the automatiq might be, in my home opinion, the best micro rotor out there. If you do or don't agree with me, walk us to why you guys set that as a northern star to reach that star. So maybe shoot for the moon, as you said, and reach the stars to set the bar so high.
- [40:49]
Pierre Biver
Yep. So to start off the first part of your question, which are who are, you know, peers, colleagues in the industry that I look up to? So I don't, I wouldn't answer that question in terms of who do I look up. Look up to, because I think if you're somebody that's living in, in the industry that we have, we're fortunate to live in today, you can look up to pretty much most of the industry. You know, many people in their own respect have, you know, do great things, but some of the friends, people which I really believe are friends and that I respect and that I share great moments. And this is not an exhaustive list I'm always going to be forgetting, but I can count the likes of Josh Shapiro, Richard Percepi, Peter Mandeda, my friends over there. I love the guys at Ferdinand Berthoud as well. Very interesting brand as Marmona Young watchmakers that I've had the chance of knowing since they really were still at school nearly or just out with the first school watch they showed. So see Simon Brett as well and others of the like part of this generation that is now at the forefront of independent watchmaking. All with their qualities. Those are sort of the colleagues and friends and people I would include in our college of independence today. And now going back to your, to the question about the microor and like, what do we do exactly internally? So today we have, we do the full decoration of all our components internally. So we have a fully and quite big decoration atelier here that today we're eight, which is quite a lot for a small company like ours. We do all the decorations here. We do and caveat to that is we do all the decorations that don't necessitate that on pieces that don't require a galvanic treatment. One of our aims is that we want to use the less galvanic treatment, coating or even PVD coatings on movement components. First of all, to protect the work of the watchmakers or decorators. Sorry, that's been countless hours decorating pieces and then you send them to galvanic treatment. There's one hair, you know, the guy who does the galvanic bass scratches the piece and you just throw it in the bin. And this is also the reason why we use gold. So we use gold and steel in most of the components. We can, every time we can use gold or steel, we use it non treated so that we can always redecorate it. There's also a view to say that in 50 years if a watch comes back, those are materials that we'll still be able to use. Some other components now used in watchmaking which are based out of additive techniques for materials are, you know, we don't know where the technology will be in 50 years if we'll still know how to produce them. So this is one of our really big things where we're really strict about in terms of movement construction. And those are all the pieces that we decorate internally. So it's base bait, bridges, racks, levers. I'm sorry, my, my English, my techniques on watchmaking is not great. Rob, if you correct me if I'm saying something wrong, but anchors as well, hearts, I don't know if that's a good word. Basically let's say that we decorate internally 80% of the component. I think that is just mainly the wheels today that we still have to use a specific material that needs coating. But we're Even working on R and D on that to change. And then we do all the assembly internally and all the testing because this is again being engineer led and trying to make the best of the best. I think that in 2022, 2023, when we launched, and still today, it's really important that although it's artisanal, we have a very good quality of function. There's nothing worse than having to send your watch back because it's not working. And for us, we really put a lot of emphasis on how the watches work. And in fact, it's a strategy that has paid off because today we have less than 5% service come back, which is. And even less than 5, I'm thinking only three pieces have come back for service and they were because of shocks. So it's something that's really working. Each watch gets tested internally for three weeks once it's assembled. And if it doesn't pass the test, obviously we open it again, change, clean and so on. What we don't do internally is all the machining process, because that's another world requires certain amount of investment as well to get the good machine machines and things like that. And in our vision of watchmaking today, and this is sometimes where with some watchmakers of the same field, we align and with some we don't, is that we believe in the use of technology, if it's used in a noble way. So we know we use a lot of CNC machines to manufacture bridges and things like that. But if it helps us get bridges that are thinner, more precise, if they can be decorated better, all these added features of doing it with a CNC machine, which is a modern technology, if you use it on gold, with the right techniques and you don't simplify some of the steps, you're creating value, you're not diminishing it. And so we have this very cool tension between engineering and then artisanship and then in terms of the micro rotor, well, today I believe that with the technologies that are the technologies of bearings, barrels, the way we can precisely manufacture, you know, wheels, pinions, things like that, and the way we've adapted the whole, let's say friction in the movement as well as the balance wheels and anchors, I think that today there is no more problem with micro rotors being, you know, not efficient. I think that it's, it's one of those things that we, we keep in mind. But I mean, if you look at the likes of Renautixier, for example, great watchmaker has had even a whole invention around the Micro rotor to even show that you can even go further in in terms of optimizing it. And it has the big advantage of showing you most of the movement. And I have to be honest with you, I'm not a very big peripheral movement type of peripheral rotor type of person. Just because I think that if you have something mechanic in a movement and you're buying a mechanic watch, it's to see all the pieces. You want to see the magic. So the rotor is really important. And obviously with the level of decoration we have, we can't have the movement all the time. So, you know, it made sense. And in the future we want to build off the automatic caliber where we're currently. So this year we've just broadened our R and D sort of office where we have three constructors now that are all working on different projects, but namely one of the big projects for 2026. 2027 is our perpetual calendar that we have started working on right now. In addition to two cool little project that I'm also going to keep a bit secret. But the end goal by 202030 is that all our movement and the automatic is a movement that belongs to us. It's a fully new developed caliber from scratch that belongs to us. But it was done with movement supply called Dubois Depos, in collaboration with them. And again, it's our engineer mentality. Why did we go with them rather than doing it ourselves? Is that being a huge movement powerhouse, more than 400 employees and 120 years of experience, is that they have labs, they have labs internally where they can test things on the ongoing steps or prototype. And to give you a bit of a in depth view of how this process goes, is that you first do your CAD, you do your first prototype, you already do components, 99.9% of the time that first prototype won't work. And you need to reorder the components with the modifications. And you do that maybe three, four times to get the right thing. But for a small company like ours, it would take ages to, you know, it's six months, it's already six weeks to order just raw gold. So to order all of these prototypes put together for a company like ours, if we were to do it, it would take five years to develop a base caliber. As with Du Bois des Pas, who has the move machines internally and the lab internally, they produce in the morning. I'm simplifying, obviously, but they produce in the morning, assemble, put in test. Okay, this is what's not working precisely. Go back, change the piece and It's a gain of time and security in terms of reliability. Our teams of engineers were closely with theirs so that we can put in our principles in that caliber. But they helped us develop it in a way which is bit uncommon for an independent. And again, this is our vision of watchmaking. But we need it to be a really sturdy movement so that automatic movement, it's highly decorated, it's made of gold, it's precious, it's fine. But rationally, today you could fit it to a watch and it would be a, a Navy SEAL type of movement. And the idea is because we want to build instantaneous complications on top and things like that. And we've already factored that into for it to be the cornerstone of the future.
- [50:35]
Rob Nudds
So that leads nicely into the first of three quick fire number based questions I have for you because we're reaching the end of what has been an illuminating recording. But I want to get some hard facts in there first for our listeners. First question is how many years ahead are you planning your release calendar at this point?
- [50:59]
Pierre Biver
Four years, rationally.
- [51:00]
Rob Nudds
Four years.
- [51:01]
Pierre Biver
Okay, very good.
- [51:03]
Rob Nudds
Okay. So there's some flexibility built into that. Obviously you're listening to the market still. Something might change unexpectedly, but you've got a four year pathway so you know what you're developing over the next few seasons. Brilliant. Second question, how many people currently work for BE There and how many people would you like to add over the next five years?
- [51:23]
Pierre Biver
Let's say 28 right now. And I don't want to go over 30 in the next five years because I want to keep the company as much of a family structure as possible. And also in terms of internal perspectives on ourselves and also just the way of things, how the things are evolving, is that we grew. So at the beginning of 2025 we were only 13. Okay, so double 2025 was a really, really clutch year for us. And now I want this team that's here that I'm 100% trusting in. I want it to become a super, super team in the next five years. We have a really, really intense plan of both production and novelties. And I want this team to live through it together so that, you know, we crunch this first phase before looking to grow. And I think that we've reached a team where we can sort of, sort of build stability now.
- [52:30]
Rob Nudds
Okay, so good news alon. There seems like there's two job vacancies available. We better get our CVs in sharpish. Last question, this is something the audience would obviously like to hear about because you've done a great job of explaining the products and the ethos behind their production. But what kind of prices are we talking about? I mean, when we talk about accessibility, we're not talking about €1,000 to €5,000 entry, we're talking way, way, way up the pricing tree. So tell us how much the key models cost in the collection and how people can get them on their wrists.
- [53:02]
Pierre Biver
So right now the entry, the entry point for the brand is around 80,000 Swiss francs without taxes and VAT. This is for our gold Dao automatique. And it sort of goes up from there, varying in terms of if you want to stone dial, stone dial with diamond indexes, guilloche, platinum, gold, then you have variability. And like any high horology brand, the sky is the limit. The miniature pizzer comes in at around 500,000 altogether. If I do an average between different configurations and then in between, I would say will be most of the other complications. Chronographs, perpetual calendar and other interesting things. We may have surprises with some other things coming as well at maybe a lower price point. I don't want to hint too fast at anything, but again, lower meaning still very expensive. I don't want to get any. You know, we are making hierarchy at us at a certain price point. And yeah, I think that's. Those are the numbers and how to get them. Well, we have trusted partners throughout the world, which very fortunately Ace Jewelers is a part of. And if you're lucky enough to have a good connection at one of these retailers in the world, you can just hopefully contact them. And they all have the same working ethos, meaning that they're all client orientated here to serve the client and give you the best experience. And that's why we give them our full trust. And we then are happy to come and visit the markets to see you if you'd like to see the watches with some of the founders present at the same time.
- [54:57]
Alain Ben Joseph
And a shout out to fellow ambassadors because this is the real time show and not the Ace duelist show. So material good Yoni New York. At four more cities in the US we have Bucherer in Europe, Le Meaux in Switzerland. Shout out to our mutual friend William Asprey of William and Son and Pierre. Talk us maybe last question, direct to consumer. You have a salon in Hong Kong, I believe. And what is your stance on ecom?
- [55:30]
Pierre Biver
So we have tested the waters with E Commerce a bit. It was a debate internally. We had some people that were for some people that were against. I think that Ultimately today it's not, it's not something that we see, we know how to handle as a brand. I think one of the great, great, great challenges that lies ahead in 2026 and given the current state of affairs in the watch industry is that brands need a certain humbleness and quite sharp look on what is our, what are our strong points and what are not strong points. For us to have a really, to have an e comm is not something that we believe we can. That's why. And just general distribution goes back also to the question of you direct to, to the brand. It's not something that we particularly look for just because retail is a business of its own. And if business, if retail has developed to retailers and distributors throughout the work, throughout the world, it's no coincidence. It's because it's really something that is something special. You know, it takes a lot of time to have the right service, the right experience, the right follow through, the, the lead up to a sale, the delivery and things like that. And very humbly, this is not our business. We as a brand we're here to build great products for retailers to be able to explain and put to the market. We have of course direct clients that buy through the brand directly because longtime family, friends, people in places of the world where we don't necessarily have a retailer, we need to take care but we try to keep those numbers relatively low because we believe that with our trusted partners we have the best service possible. And in terms of the lounge in Hong Kong, again it's yes, a Beaver lounge dedicated space and it's a Beaver operation but it's a team of retail dedicated there that operate quite independently. Their specialty is retail. And for us, and this is also the motto going forward in 2026 so is that we have to really concentrate in what we know how to do. And what we know how to do is we know how to build calibers, we know how to have a vision in terms of what we want to build as a watch. We know how to decorate them, we know how to assemble them, we know how to make it, manufacture, have it manufactured and we know how to build the story around it. But then the rest, we really have this high trust and loyalty towards our retail partners just because it's a, it's a job of its own. You know, I, I handle clients direct personally and I love them, they're great. I would, I, I wish I, I could spend every day with them but you know, it's hard work and when you're jungling between you know, going into prototype, meeting, supplier, this, that, talking about things like that, and you have at the same time to get it delivered through an airplane. Because again, associated with the price point of our watches needs to come a certain service. Sometimes the market too much overlooks that. It's expensive. It's just expensive. No, it's. It's expensive, yes. But when it's expensive, your client is very demanding and you have to fulfill those wishes because it's the bare minimum to. To give. You know, if somebody's buying you a watch having, you know, 16 people in that today that are grandmasters in horology and decoration, if they can have dinner on the table every day, if they can continue doing their art, it's thanks to those patrons and collectors that put these sums on the table. So we're here to deliver anything they want. But it gets tricky for a brand when we have to handle that in addition to the whole making of the product.
- [59:25]
Rob Nudds
What an incredible cavalcade of sound bites upon which to end. Pierre, thank you so much for spending an hour with us talking about the brand. And it sounds like the Biver family is growing and its deep roots in the industry will continue to flourish in the future. If any of our listeners have questions for Pierre, then please do get in touch. You know, the usual channels, you can contact us on Instagram therealtime Show or via the contact form on the official website www.therealtime.show. you can find Alon on Instagram at A L O N B E N J O S E P H I AM there obnudds R O B N U D D S We'll be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.
- [60:25]
Pierre Biver
Sa.