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- [00:00]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Adoma Joseph
Watch fans and welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood jeweler, Adoma Joseph. Today I'm very honored and proud to welcome to the virtual studio another fellow Dutchman. He is not just a watchmaker, he's not just a entrepreneur in the watch industry. He is a little bit mad. He's definitely a philosopher, but first and foremost, he's an artist. I'm referring to Michiel Roltenrichs.
- [00:40]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Hey, Michiel.
- [00:40]
Adoma Joseph
Welcome.
- [00:41]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
- [00:43]
Adoma Joseph
Well, the honor and pleasure is all mine. I've been admiring you and following you from day one. I've actually only recently finally added a art piece Halting to my private collection. Watches is one I've been eyeing for quite some time and I had to twist some arms to obtain it. But I'm rocking it right now. But to tell you the God honest truth, I'm a bit late to the party because I love what I'm wearing. I have one of your first pieces, the 3D steel printed version with a very simple but in a positive simple, less is more dial, silver dial with indexes. But after seeing the ornament, or it's the nouveau ornament, if I'm correct.
- [01:29]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Ornament nouveau. Like ornament nouveau.
- [01:31]
Adoma Joseph
So I always turn it around. You presented to us at a wonderful party during Geneva watch days last summer. It's still my mind. I was. I am a chatterbox, but I was silent for a few minutes and that doesn't happen often to me. But to get to this point, we have a long journey to go. I'm a chatterbox, but you're a bigger chatterbox. So soon I'm going to shut up, but before I do so, a question I had from our TRTS community. We have a lot of admirers of your work and of you, but the non Dutch ones and the non German ones have issues pronouncing the name. So for Christian van der Klau, we came up with a nickname on the show which. Which in English is the Claw.
- [02:17]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Okay, nice. Yeah.
- [02:19]
Adoma Joseph
Do you and or your watches have a nickname already?
- [02:23]
Michiel Roltenrichs
I think we'll. We will come up with it by the end of the show. I think we have some time to think about it then.
- [02:30]
Adoma Joseph
Okay, so here. Here are maybe some suggestions that you could consider if you feel good. I was thinking of the Holt Holt Hol T or just M H or M H D for Delft. So you need to help the Collectus Michiel because you have a beautiful name and your Signature, your literal signature is on the watches on the website. But we need to help the people because you're very ambitious. Besides starting off Holtenrich, you now today have holtenrich's Holt or L'Orgerie. So that's already two handles on Instagram. And there is also something very cool out there that shows you're not a snob. Del watch works. Yeah, but I don't think we'll have time to even get to there. So the mic goes to you. I'm gonna sit back. Enjoy my espresso. Please start from the beginning. Why you, as a talented architect, was crazy enough to get into watches?
- [03:35]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Okay. Yeah, I think it's good to say that I learned from my parents that everything you do in life should be about passion. You get happy in life when you do things that make you happy. When you really do something or pursue to do something that is adding value to your life and hopefully also to others. That means that, that I've been taught to always follow my heart. Architecture was actually the thing that I like. I wanted to become an architect since I was 8 years old because my parents, they brought me to France always. My father is in vintage French cars and we had an address over there. We went there every year. And they had a small castle with medieval, well, tunnels underneath. And I was always digging in the tunnels and totally admiring the architecture. Although maybe I don't know if I even knew the word architecture at the time, but that really was, for me, the foundations of wanting to become an architect. And as soon as I started studying, I think within a year actually, or something, I started working at an architectural firm. But it was parallel to the financial crisis. So a long story short, the crisis totally changed the market in architecture. And the role of the architect was, well, diminished, I would say, and it still is. So when you're a creative person and you as a person really want to be responsible for great design, then what's. What's the opportunity that you have? That was basically what. What's. What's bothering me. And of course, if you want to follow your heart, you must fight. You must fight. Right? I also came to know the world of watches through, well, eventually through a house roommate, actually, who brought me into clothing. And then with clothing came watches, and I started to collect and restore watches in my student room, basically. Also from my second year in studies, I saw everything that I liked in architecture. I saw that into a watch in a watch. It's design, it's technique, it's innovation. It's also very personal. And you can wear it, you can always bring it. So now leading to where we are now, the biggest goal that I have is to create architecture on the wrist. So I still consider myself somewhat as an architect, but maybe on a very small scale. I also think I need to explain about the name because it's my family name. It's. It's the only family in the world which, which carries this name. Around 1830, a German. It was a German family, but people migrated to the US and to the Netherlands. In the US it's called Holt Hendrix. Now Google also always tries to correct me to hold Hendrix, but it's the only family in the world. And that was also one thing that I thought if I put my name there, it's original enough, but it also says something about me really wanting to fight to create a beautiful product. And I'm very aware that the name is impossible to pronounce. So it had to be designed, which is also like my signature. But. And a signature is also hinting to creativity more than just a name. Everything is block letters nowadays and it's poverty in the design world, I think. So, yeah, that's about it.
- [07:24]
Adoma Joseph
There's a mission, there's a vision. Now let's talk about strategies. It's a legacy. You are indeed an architect because you're building literally stuff from the ground up with watches.
- [07:37]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah.
- [07:38]
Adoma Joseph
Where did you start? Did you have a price point in mind? Did you know immediately needed to be mechanical? You actually innovated the whole industry because if I'm not mistaken, you are the first to make a high end piece 3D printed today. There are few more, but not that many. Still walk us through that process. So you came up with the name you had, you had a legacy brand in mind.
- [08:04]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah.
- [08:04]
Adoma Joseph
Family name, surname and then what I.
- [08:07]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Think the brand name was, it was not something I really thought about. It's just something very obvious that if you look at architects, like really famous architects, they are known for their personality, for their, for their. Well actually their names are known like you, everybody knows REM Koolhaas, Frank Lloyd Wright, just to, just to name a few. And I think, I think putting your personal name behind something really shows that you are really caring about what you do. That wasn't, not. That was a very logical thing for me to do about strategy. It's. How should I say that? I think, I think it's. There's not really a strategy behind it, to be honest. It's really about creating something beautiful as a, as a, as a, as a main purpose. Which is. Which might seem obvious. Everybody wants to do that. But it also says something about evolution. And evolution comes over time. So when you design something, it can always be better. So the next step is an evolution of the thing that you did before because you have new ideas. It's not that the models are planned beforehand or something, but to a certain extent. To a certain extent, I have to say, because Ornament Nouveau or latest release is actually very long already in the. Yeah, actually started in 2017. So that's. You could say that's somewhat planned. I. I didn't have any idea that I could actually make it a feasible company out of this. It started very organically from. Again, from my student room. I collected watches and I started repairing them just by making these simple architectural exploded views. So I knew where which component was where, started buying books, et cetera. So online courses, like online, mostly videos, actually on YouTube, and eventually learned by hand how to make components. I had this simple hand grinder and I made stuff. I liked it so much that I was. And that's also. If I like something very much, I need to know everything about it. So I need to know about materials, about how a gear train works, also the mathematics behind it. I need to learn how constructions work. Like, early watches are front loaders often. And then you had the backloaders. Why is that? Right, right. And, yeah, just total nerding. And then from that point, I think I had around 300 watches as a student, all broken when. When they came in, restored them, et cetera. And at a certain point, I remember very, very well that I had this watch coming in. I was like, oh, nice. And I put it aside, and that was a realization that I thought, this is really not healthy anymore. I. This is not about joy. This is about hoarding. And it's just shallow. And that was exactly the point that I thought, hey, I'm going to be an architect. Why can't I design a watch? So that was the beginning, I think somewhere 2012 or something around the same time, we got the first 3D printer in our faculty in Delft, which was a plaster printer. But that gave me ideas, because you can start thinking about manufacturing in a different way. You add up materials instead, you take material off. And then if you look at a watch like, okay, how are you going to make a watch with that kind of technique? Is that already existing? So I came to learn about metal printing, etc. And I simply started contacting manufacturers, and there were very few at the time. So that's basically how it started quite organically. It took me, I think eventually around 2012, first design. So end of 2015, like December 2015, I had a final prototype which my father now wears, of the ornament one. So the, the. The model you actually recently bought, I think I, I posted everything on Facebook. It was still a hobby project. And then I got a guy contacting me saying, hey, can I buy this watch from you for my wedding instead of a wedding ring? And I was doing my graduation at the time, but I got that request and I thought, oh, shit, yes, of course I want to do that. But yeah, we were still prototyping phase. So I have to say that at the time I worked with materialise and metalwork firm, like a position engineering firm in Belgium. And I called them and said, okay, I have this request, can we do that? And everybody said, yeah, we, we're going to support you, we're going to do it. And in two days before his wedding, I got it finished. It was quite stressful, but that was the point that I thought, okay, this might actually be something that I could commercialize. And commercialize is a. I think thinking in that way is not something obvious for me to do. But I thought, hey, people, apparently there's a guy who likes my work, maybe there are more. And that gives me a special position. I think you make stuff that people find desirable and that's some kind of recognition, which is often when I talk about why you want to design or why are you as a designer, why do you want to do that and why do you want to put your name on it? It's also about recognition. I think eventually, yeah, you want to be responsible for creating something that people really admire or why, and they feel happy about something about that. So that was a point that I thought, okay, maybe this is an interesting alternative to architecture for me. I graduated two months later and decided to go all in, basically. So there's not really a strategy behind it in terms of price point. At the time I started at €3,500, which was literally my costs for the watch without my personal hours, like calculated into that. And I think over the years that followed, I learned really the hard way that that was not the way to go. So there was quite a few tough years later on to. To maintain the business was always like selling a watch, oh, I can pay this month's rent, but then, oh, I also need to build the next ones. So that was, that was challenging. And over the years I had to increase the price, but then also increase the finishing and Then I learned about finishing the movement myself also because we're in the Netherlands alone, you know, that's quite far sometimes from the industry. You have to learn everything yourself. So that was also the case when I was in the prototyping phase. I had the watch case design and eventually also manufactured, and it looked very raw. And I went to a watchmaker who supported me also with advice. At the time it was John Westerbeek, a Dutch guy in Delft also. And he asked me, okay, who's going to finish the watch and who's going to build it? I said, yeah, I'm going to do it. So no idea how to do that. So you have to learn it yourself. And I think that counts for many things also on the business side. And eventually, if you don't find that interesting, how running a business works or how marketing works even later on, it's a tough industry. I'm not naturally interested in those aspects, but I also understand that it's part of the job. And. And when you learn that, then also it becomes interesting aspects. But it's also, you need to maintain. As a designer, you need to maintain that you find the right balance between design and, and business. And it can come to a point that you are only doing or only worried about how to survive and how to grow, whatever, or. And that's the other side, is that you always want to proceed designing to the next one and that you lose the commercial side. And that's also a weakness that I have, is that once I design something, then, yeah, and it's finished and we built a prototype then. Okay, next, right. So then, because it can be better, it can always be better, I think, I hope I will be able to design until I die. Because that means that, that. That I'm really an inspired designer. Because it's never finished. Yeah, okay, you have to cut me somewhere. Sometimes I can go on forever, but then I might lose the. I might lose the point.
- [16:58]
Adoma Joseph
I said, you're a philosopher. I said, this is going to be an easy recording for me. I just sit back drinking my coffee. I'm having a blast. Because I'm listening and I'm thinking and I'm hearing bits and pieces that I did not know yet. I have a lot to unpack in this intermezzo, interrupting your flow. So you're autodidactic. You said that you taught yourself how it works. You want to know every little detail. Did you have any formal education? Because if I'm counting correctly, you're now. And I'm saying this Respectfully, toying with watches already 13 years.
- [17:30]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah, yeah, you're right. Now I never had any education in the field of watchmaking only I did one course in using the watchmaker late, which was if I recall correctly, eight or ten evenings. And later on I did a course together with Pukk and Damian, two of my valuable employees in Switzerland with Philippe Narbell, which was a masterclass, taking four or five days. I can't remember anymore. But that was, that was really great. So. And the rest is all learned by ourself. And I think also that that's a very good thing. If you look at many, many great watch designs are actually not made by watchmakers. And I think that it has the opportunity. There's one thing, when you're into watches, you really need to understand how it works technically and how watches are built, etc. That's obvious. But although it might seem obvious, it's also sometimes for forgotten. So you need to learn about watchmaking, about the movement itself, the case construction, etc. But you also, I think it's also in some way a blessing for us as the whole team that we're hardly any of us is, is, is from the watch former watch education. And it brings in so many different disciplines and also different approaches to problem solving that you can come up with other, other techniques, other solutions, other materials even. And that makes the level of creativity almost endless. Yeah, I think it's in our case a good thing. But also if you want to make something which also has impact, like design impact on a movement or even eventually create a movement, then you obviously need to know a hell lot of it. So you need to spend a lot of time in that.
- [19:30]
Adoma Joseph
You weren't graduated, you created your first prototype, you sold it to a groom. Did you ever have an actual building or whatever you as an architect designed besides watches? Or have you always been a watchmaker?
- [19:48]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah, yeah, that's a very good question. And I've never, I've never made something with my own name. So from my second year I started working at a architectural firm. Actually by the way was really hard badly hit by the commercial of economic crisis. Around the time I arrived there as a student, they went from 52 people to five basically. So I saw the whole impact of the financial crisis on, on the industry and. But I, I stayed there for about eight years and there were times that that was almost full time or actually full time. I also took a little bit more time for my studies, obviously did quite a lot of projects in. It was housing projects like Building neighborhoods, which is also why the, the company got struck hard because no new developments were started at a certain point. And we did a lot of renovation projects, but of iconic Dutch heritage, like a early modernist heritage. And that's where I think I also gained a lot of inspiration from or got a lot of inspiration from. So we worked, for example, on Vanelle Fabrik. It's made by extremely important Dutch architects from what they call the Neuesaklakite. So that's really the new formal tea, actually in English. It's the, it's really early modernism in the Netherlands. And of course Dutch people are rationalistic, so it's, it's really rational compared to other modernist streams in Europe or worldwide. We worked on a lot of those kind of projects, which was very interesting for the, for that they, they are highly monumental now. So if you want to improve the building, because everything is old, so it's, it's, it's badly insulated, et cetera, if you want to improve that and, or restore it, you need to study really how they are made and the ideas behind certain details, et cetera. So you really need to learn about the architecture of those days. And, and that's, I think, I think that that, that had big impact on my, My love for Art Deco and Art Nouveau, but, but, but so, so, so I've never built something on my. Under my own name, unfortunately. And that's one of maybe my biggest dream, actually. So once in my life I will buy a ruined castle in France, because that's my childhood dream and it still drives me through my life. I'm also, by the way, I'm also specialized in fortified buildings. I will buy a ruin and I will transform it into a house, but in a very modern way, respecting the ruin as the ruin itself. So I find decay, the notion of decay and nature taking over something which was highly cultivated and also highly expensive actually at the time when it was built. I find that the most romantic thing because it shows that time has passed, etc. And that's actually a direct link to one of our watches, which is the raw ornament, bronze, which is made in such a way that it sees constant change and decay while it keeps working. So, yeah, I find that romantic.
- [23:11]
Adoma Joseph
I hear Japanese philosophy.
- [23:15]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah.
- [23:16]
Adoma Joseph
Is that correct?
- [23:17]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Well, I guess there are links, but I have to say I'm not well familiar with Japanese philosophy and it's actually a good thing that I should investigate once, especially also when you regard that Art Nouveau is one of the streams or like the styles that I Like most. And it's heavily inspired by Japanese architecture and Japanese tradition in philosophy, et cetera. So it's a very good point that I should actually investigate more.
- [23:53]
Adoma Joseph
I'm looking forward to seeing a Kintsugi Haltrinch going to the Chateau Holtenrichs will that Chateau that. I'm very curious to see how you're going to combine the decay with the modernity. Have a manufacture atelier inside as well.
- [24:12]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah, obviously. Yeah. So at this moment. Okay, no, I will tell you a little bit more about my first atier first because that's like I started this really grassroots style. So I finished my studies, I was actually one of the four out of 18 to successfully finish the master while also building the prototype. So now I'm saying that with some kind of pride. There was a project which was also about a. So in the architecture. The project was about fortifications in Maastricht. So it was really my topic. Also I finished and I had a studio, student studio, which I had to move out in about a few weeks after you, over a few months after you graduate, which is I think actually a good thing. You need to make space for the next one. Right. But I didn't have any money. So I need to tell you that that about that time I sold most of my vintage watches to make funds available for the prototyping. Later on I calculated that I spent about 80k in prototyping which I gained from these restored watches. That was actually a good investment, it turned out and. But I was totally broke. So I went walking around town and I thought okay, let's stick in Delft. Now I'm not from Delft originally, but I also feel that I somewhat. Yeah, I should be thankful for what I learned there. Yeah, it's a nice town, very interesting history. So I thought I'd stick around for a while. I basically went to every entrepreneur in town and asked if they knew if there was a building for, for rent. Interesting building. And eventually I got to a, a guy, I wouldn't say too much, a very typical guy who had this old art deco shop, about 45 square meters for rent. And I said to him, yeah, I want to rent this, but only if I can put my mattress in the bank. And he said, yeah, it's fine with me. So, so that's how I started. And then I, I, I, of course I covered it with curtains etc. So if a journalist would, would come by, it wouldn't be visible it for me it's extremely, I didn't have the money to, to, to Also rent like a place to live. But it's also important for me that I live very nearby to my. To my work or actually in my work, because my work is my life. And I tried many times to. To change that, but it's impossible. So I just have to accept that fact that I need to live in my work. I think three years later I moved to a different atiei and I had to also move away from my work because the situation of that space wasn't allowing for me to live there. And now I live like 20 minutes drive from our ATA and that's really troubling me often. So yes, in the future I see work and living combined as the way to go. Which is also something like if you look at the old style shops in a city center, like historical cities, you always have work and living together. It's very natural. You are also forced to put your life energy into your shop because that's basically your living is on threat if you demolish it. Yeah, it's an obvious thing for me. And you mentioned the Chateau old Hendrich. In 2017 I was driving with my girlfriend in Germany in a beautiful nature in the Harz. And we came to this because we like Urbexing. We came to this anti factory building in the middle of a forest. It had four layers and an annex building. And we walked around and I thought, shit, this really is it. You have a ground floor, beautiful ground floor with an exhibition space and a shop room. A place where you can collaborate with artists, whatever. And then on top of that you have more like the office. And then you have the factory, golf, watch works, metalwork factory, whatever. And then on top of that you have the haute luxury finishing at the. So you have all layers of watchmaking combined and also what makes the brand. And then in the annex you have the bed and breakfast. And I'm elaborating on this because this, this, this gained. This gave me an impression of what I want to achieve for us in terms of housing for the company over time. And I always call it the 30 years plan. But since that time that I saw that building. Oh, there should be a cocktail bar inside. Also, since the time that I had that dream, I've always been trying to manifest it. So combining with my love for historical buildings, I'm investigating for years already to move RLTA to a typical. Yeah, we call it water forts. We have a lot of water forts in the Netherlands. Inundation forts, fortresses. So they are UNESCO heritage. So this is something that would be my dream if we stay in the Netherlands as a company, which is another topic. But I think it's very important that we will. That we move into such a space because this is about. Such bases nowadays are. Nowadays are so inspiring with their history and the nature taking over all these kinds of aspects that I just mentioned. And this is still an ongoing search. But I also have. That's why I'm elaborating so much. I also have very exciting news which is that yesterday I basically agreed upon a new location in delft in an 400 years old armory building. Very monumental space which is also including a boutique hotel, cocktail bar, lobby. So everything combined. I'm so excited for this because what you can do is, I think it's almost our responsibility as a brand to be able to invite people to come to our facilities and see how the watches are made and really get to learn what's the idea behind the designs and the techniques we're using, etc. But you also want to accommodate them in a pleasant way. The romance in this industry is extremely important. Obviously. Yeah, this is something I'm always dreaming, et cetera. But I think if you dream out loud, there is a way eventually you will move towards that dream.
- [30:58]
Adoma Joseph
Congratulations.
- [30:59]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, that was literally yesterday afternoon. We're working on this project for this particular building. We're already in negotiations for about eight months or something. So it has been quite a long, long trip.
- [31:20]
Adoma Joseph
So you heard it first on the Real Time show. It's another scoop. I'm very excited to go see this place.
- [31:26]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah, you're welcome. I would love to invite you there.
- [31:30]
Adoma Joseph
Thank you. You touched upon the topic. We don't know if we're going to stay in Holland. You obviously solidified it. Right now I want to quickly touch upon the nouveau ornament caliber because you're too modest, you and your whole team to call it Dutch made and probably the first Dutch caliber. I want to pause that because I, I guess that can be in a whole episode on the Real Time show because as predicted, you are chatterbox and we're already 2/3 in.
- [31:58]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Oh.
- [32:01]
Adoma Joseph
You know, I've had, I have had discussions with the whole team that I'm considering doing Lex Friedman slash acquired podcast styles episodes that are three, four hours long. The day that we'll do that, I have a feeling you're going to be the first guest.
- [32:16]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Okay.
- [32:19]
Adoma Joseph
Going back to calibers you had at a certain point, I believe you said 300.
- [32:26]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah.
- [32:26]
Adoma Joseph
When you were that prototyping student in your dormitory, still graduating. How Important was caliber. So I asked you initially. Yeah, in city mechanical quartz, I guess quartz was never in frag. It was never even an option for you, I have a feeling.
- [32:46]
Michiel Roltenrichs
No. No.
- [32:47]
Adoma Joseph
Okay then did you start with the idea of architectural case that 3D printed or did you start with a caliber? Where did you start first?
- [32:58]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Ah, that's a good question. Let me say one thing about quartz. I actually don't dislike quartz quartz, but you need to have human connection. So when you have to wind the watch, that's why I like a hand winder. Initially I like a hand winder more than a automatic. That's difficult to say now because we actually have automatics. The hand winder is the most purest mechanical feel you, you can have. And then obviously you have Harwood Hammer automatic whatever coming on the market, which is very interesting because it gives interesting feedback, et cetera. So there needs to be some way that you as a person, you get a connection with your watch. And a rotor, which actually gives a little bit of noise for me is a good thing because that, that gives some kind of awareness of what you're wearing. Right. And a quartz can be very clinical, but there are some very nice quartzes. And also if you look at the time just before the quartz where you had electromechanical movements, super interesting. But a mechanical watch, the things that you can do with the mechanism is limited and unlimited at the same time. And it brings so much extra layers in what you can do with it, design wise also. But then how I started, I was, I was a student, right. I had a big love for calibers, like you say, like movements foremost. So I collected all these kinds of chronographs and also other other type of movements which sometimes, let's just say like a Venus movement, you could buy in a chronograph Suisse for a few tens of euros at the time. Whereas they were also literally the same thing in a Breitling and they were much more expensive. I never understood really what's the why. Right. So I focused a lot on different calibers. I, I, I think still I'm, I'm quite an expert on vintage movements. And that started with a, with a love for trends watches. Trench watches are the early type of, of wristwatches. In terms of the history of the wristwatch itself, it's, it's extremely interesting how trends watches developed, but also at the time the manufacturers were almost working like car manufacturers at the time. So you could buy an engine, so to say, and you went to a carangier or a Coach builder. And you had a case made. So that's why you see many trench watches from I think Longines, Semau, whatever with Benson cases, for example, or the makers. And then looking at the movement or the engine in terms, terms of talking about cars, you could even choose the quality of the movement. So you could say, okay, I would like to have this movement from that X manufacturer, like that, that manufacturer. I don't want jewels inside, so no rubies, just metal bearings. But I then go to a case maker and I will put a gold case onto it. And it looks like I'm the, I'm the man, right? So I had these examples of watches that were literally like that. But then you also had the other way around where more sophisticated collectors or manufacturers would make the best movement and then just put a simple silver or nickel case around it. And so this is very fascinating because there's more liberty in the things you could do apparently at the time. And brands were less important and often even the brands were not mentioned on the dialogue. So, so this is something where I thought, okay, so I need to really think about the, the caliber that I would choose and, and then the relation to the case. And this is where I found the 7001 at the time, because that was the practically the thinnest movement which was available on the market. So not available to buy from eta, but I could get it through the gray market eventually. We would work with new old stock movements from the 1970s and 80s in pure brass unassembled condition. So I was very lucky to find that later on, starting from that movement, which is only 23 millimeters. I thought, okay, because what, what's the, what's the style, what's the design language and how should the watch look like? And I'm a very classical, classical, and I'm not a classical guy in the terms of the architectural styles that I like, but I'm classical in the way that I like to dress up. And then you need to have a watch which is modest in size and fitting under, under the cuff. And that was actually why I choose that caliber first. Because as a student, I could never find or dream of building a caliber myself. Right? Especially not since I'm not a watchmaker. But I, I thought that would, would be a good base movement to further develop upon over time. And, and the first watch, the ornament one, is 38 millimeters because that was the perfect size for vintage chronographs. So chroniclers were bigger. Normally a watch was like 33, 34 millimeters. Throughout history, actually until the 90s. And. And then the chrono cross were a little bit bigger because of the large movements. And nowadays I thought 38 is the sweet spot because it's small nowadays, but it's. It's still. It's still there. So. So that's the reasoning behind it. And then later on, indeed, the 7001 proved to be a, I think, a very flexible movement for finishing. Although it's quite difficult because it's so fragile. You really can't compare it to a Unitas movement in terms of how you can treat it. Many people can't imagine how small the gears are, for example, and how fragile they are. So I started really from the movement and building around it and picking then a movement which I could obtain, which had the. Which offered me the things I wanted in the design. Yeah. Starting from the caliber and then talking about Ornament Nouveau. That was also 2017. So just a year after I officially started that, I started drawing actually some concepts. And the thing. I think it's important to say that a good architect should be on any level. Normally I refer to Victor Horta, a very famous Belgium art nouveau architect. Even designed the clothes of his wife to match the house. So he thought of every detail, like the cabinets inside to the overall facade or whatever. Like every level is in there and also how you use it. So the staircase is designed in such a way that if you walk down to receive your client, he also had his atelier in his house, that you would make a great impression, like it was designed to give you a full pedestal. And that's really amazing. So I knew already when I started designing my first watch. Eventually I also need to design the movement because then it becomes a wholesome design and I wouldn't want to go for less eventually. Yeah, I think that's. That's about it. So. So I think Ornament Nouveau is the.
- [40:36]
Adoma Joseph
It's the epitome of Michiel Holton.
- [40:38]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah. No, but it's also the beginning of a new era, hopefully.
- [40:42]
Adoma Joseph
So where are we going next then?
- [40:44]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Okay, I now have. I now have a great. We have a small. That we are a small team, but a great team. And I say also, I think they are also great because now it started. Starts to also correct me sometimes, which is very good and saying, okay, you need to. You need to swift your pace a little bit, make it a little bit slower. Because we're from going from development into development, going like putting a lot of stress on the finances constantly, but also on the team. On the energy of the team, literally. And we need to now solidify the brand. So it will. It will mean that we will not bring completely new things in the near future, as in this year. We will. We will really take a pause in that we will make variants, for example. But I have many ideas for. Yeah, maybe. I don't know exactly the name of ornament nouvelle number two. Maybe it will be because Ornament Nouveau still internally is Ornament 2, because you had Ornament 1 and then some variants and then you have Ornament 2. So they're also. I have ideas for Ornament 3, but also Ornament 2.2. So there's. There's many ideas.
- [42:00]
Adoma Joseph
Ornament du Deco. Ornament distill.
- [42:06]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. That's interesting because I actually think not really, because the ornament one was really a Art Deco watch from the design point. I see my process as almost an emancipation process from the design perspective. So I started with an art deco because design. Because Art deco is really about balance in design. Straight lines, it really gives a lot of handles to create a solid design. I think if you. If you understand it well. And I really like Art Deco, I have to say that I really like that especially for. For the wholesomeness, so like the. Even the smallest details, but also like you had companies manufacturing just the simple things in life, like a bottle opener, which were perfectly designed and also for a larger public. So. So that you have that you put aesthetics into something in everything in daily life, basically. I really like that. But personally, I also really like Art Nouveau and going further back to the gothical styles, whereas balance, sometimes, especially in gothical styles, you have balance, which is a little bit odd because look at the cathedrals. They're all the cathedrals, all the famous cathedrals are overwhelming and super beautiful, but they're also strange in how high they are at the time, for example. So. So there design becomes challenging for the eye. It becomes to challenge your ideas of how things should be. And that's when. If you play that well, when it becomes really interesting. And that's why I don't like classicism, because it's boring. It's just like, okay, make things perfect and then you lose all interest. And so I think ornament nouveau, but also our signature ornaments, which are derived in terms of design, derived from Ornament Nouveau is very much a next step where I dare to propose these kinds of challenging shapes. It might be Art deco, it might be different things, but I'M not purist in a way, but it should be very challenging.
- [44:28]
Adoma Joseph
You touched upon the 7 2001. I assume that's the Peso.
- [44:33]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah.
- [44:34]
Adoma Joseph
It's also the Alpha caliber Nomos makes already for over 30 years.
- [44:38]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [44:40]
Adoma Joseph
Do you, besides obviously your own caliber, now use these peso 7,000 ones in the collections? Because the, the new calibers are automatic. The new watches, I mean. Sorry.
- [44:52]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah.
- [44:53]
Adoma Joseph
How much of it do you do in house in the Netherlands, in Delft.
- [44:56]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah, good point. I will say something about the 7001 first. The first ones I used were actually from Glashute. I don't need to say anything more. Not from Nomos, but a guy who produced for Nomos at the time. So because Nomos made a very rapid growth over the years for the base models. So signature ornament, we left the 7001 because it's also limited in terms of future complications. For example, I really like moon phase power reserves, all these kinds of things which we can incorporate into a dial design or later on in the Signature series based upon the same SW300 sellita movement. So. So the signature really is intended to be flexible. We also designed it in such a way that it's modular. We can hold movements up to 30 millimeters. So it means that we can even put a faux shade micro rotor into that or like many calibers. But that's really from the design point. So the movement is. Is going to support the overall design of the Signature series or Nomad Nouveau is hand wound for the reasons that I said before. Like you experience, you see it and it's as it were, it's flipped over. So the, the work side of the movement is now on the dial side and therefore you can, you can play a lot with the bridges. Can you repeat your question? Because I lost myself a true artist.
- [46:33]
Adoma Joseph
Now asked how much of those variety of calibers that you have today? Because if I count correctly, you work on three platforms.
- [46:42]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Ah, yeah, yeah.
- [46:43]
Adoma Joseph
How much do you of them? Well, one obviously is in house, and that's revolutionary. Which you guys are too modest about, in my humble opinion.
- [46:50]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah.
- [46:51]
Adoma Joseph
So let's talk about the other two. How much of them do you do in house? And maybe, maybe just elaborate because we actually are running out of time and have a zillion more questions.
- [46:59]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Maybe in a.
- [47:00]
Adoma Joseph
In a short answer. How much of all the watches do you do in Delft or in the Netherlands or in house?
- [47:08]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Okay, yeah, good point. So the base signature ornaments are milled. Now, uh, that was a big step for us to leave 3D printing to go to milling. But that was also a statement to say, yeah, but people, we are about design, not about the technique per se. The technique should follow the design. And that is milled externally. The dials are made externally, the hands are made externally. So we do finishing and assembly. I'm very transparent about that because it's a very deliberate choice to make it a much more efficient watch for us to build, because this way we can free up space for our passion projects, which is Ornament Nouveau and later projects. And there we do. On those projects, we do the printing, we have outsourced because the machines are like €750,000 and outdating very rapidly. So that's done by a partner. We do milling, finishing and basically control the whole production process. Also of the movement, which is for the prototyping we can do ourselves, but in series. We have a production partner near Rotterdam, so very nearby. We work with since 2016, I think I worked with them. That's just super cool. So I hope in the future we can also manufacture more. But I'm also realistic in a way that if I look at his machine park, for example, he has a QC room which is millions of euros. And that's simply not the stage where we are at this time as a company. So I want to fully have full control over the process and the design. But I work together with partners nearby to manufacture it for the series. And yeah, that one is made in the Netherlands and I believe it's the very first caliber in the Netherlands to be manufactured in series. And yeah, I still find that hard to say, because for me it's an obvious thing from the design perspective to want to do that. But yeah, I have to say that relating to the ecosystem I talked about, I would dream of building this ecosystem locally, that we can build a Dutch watch industry or contribute to that. Who's taking pride of local production? Not because on the national list, but because you have the more freedom in how you work and you don't have the disadvantages of being a small party ordering in Switzerland. Whatever. Yeah, there are many things to say, but I think another time then.
- [49:47]
Adoma Joseph
Yes, please. I want to kick in one last question and if it's too difficult to answer, you may save it for the next recording that we do.
- [50:00]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Okay.
- [50:00]
Adoma Joseph
Are you Michiel Rothenrichs, an architect, a designer, watchmaker and or entrepreneur and you can pick a mix or are you all of them?
- [50:15]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Yeah, now, but quite recently I. I thought of all of them. I never looked at me as an entrepreneur because it's a natural thing. But I start to realize that you have to make many choices in making a watch and building a company around it, that you can't avoid the fact that you're an entrepreneur. And I also like to enjoy that fact. And but foremost, I see myself as an architect because it's so funny. So many architects go bankrupt all the time because they have to be all these kinds of personalities at once and often they are not. So an architect per se is somebody who has to be an entrepreneur also if you want to work for yourself. And finally, I say architect because I would like to consider how I organize the company also as an architectural firm. And I see our products as architecture still. And architecture includes all layers in design. So that's, I think foremost all the other personalities.
- [51:26]
Adoma Joseph
It obviously was a rhetorical question. You are a polymath. Why I wanted to drive this question was is being an entrepreneur a necessary evil for you as such a creative?
- [51:42]
Michiel Roltenrichs
Oh yes.
- [51:47]
Adoma Joseph
Okay, we'll leave it at that. We will pick that up in a following recording an episode which is not going to be today. We're going to let that simmer with Michiel and sink in because it's a beautiful philosophical discussion if a designer should be an entrepreneur. And if so, should it actually be the CEO of a company or the face of the company, or should there be more captains on a ship?
- [52:14]
Michiel Roltenrichs
This is something I'm. I'm so often thinking about and I wouldn't know the answer.
- [52:22]
Adoma Joseph
Well, we'll find it together. And for our dear listeners, if you want to chime in, definitely shoot your feedback, comments, criticism, questions. In the real time show community, we have a TRTS WhatsApp community. Michiel's invite as well because we have a lot of industry leaders in there as well. Michiel, I want to thank you so, so much for making my life easy. This was again one of the most easiest recordings I had. And thank you dear listeners, for also taking the time to sit down or drive or work out while you listen to this episode. You can find all our previous episodes on our official website, www.therealtimeshow. you can also find us on Instagram herealtimeshow. If you want to support the show, please subscribe, like rate and share it with your friends. If you have any questions, feedback and or criticism, please do send us a message. You can also DM us. If you want to join the TRTS community, you can find our newest host, Scarlett Baker on the Gram karlintheshire David. You can find on Instagram Ava a u c h e r Rob ro b n u d d s and me at alonbenjoseph. If you prefer to send us an old school email, you can just add our first names to the URL herealtime show. Stay sane and keep on ticking it.