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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Watch fans, I'm Alombe Joseph, your local and friendly jeweler, calling in all the way from London, together with my co host, David Voucher, our resident provocateur, who actually initiated, to my wonderful surprise, this interview with my dear, dear friend Serge Mayal, the fourth generation of who knows me and I always repeat it, my favorite magazine in this industry, Europa Star. And I'm honored to welcome you to the studio, dear Serge. And before we kick off, because actually David initiated this, so he's taking the lead on this interview is a big, big, big congratulations to the Mayal family on the centenary of Europa Star.
- [01:00]
B
It's coming up. Thank you so much.
- [01:04]
A
It's because you're making everything ready for 27, aren't you?
- [01:08]
B
Yes, yes. Actually behind me I have some archives of Europa Star. I'm right now in our office in the old town of Geneva where we keep actually the physical track of all our archives since 1927. And we dig, we started digitizing them a few years ago, so we give them a second lease of life online of course, so everyone can access them. But I like to come back here and just have the physical copies. It's some kind of memory trip and always enjoyable, especially in this industry where we cultivate also our memory so much.
- [01:50]
A
So before I hand the mic to David, everything for a centenary is always prepared more than a year beforehand. So we need to keep it real here and get some inside scoops. So I'll ask one question and shut up. Almost all of the episode is what can you give us a little glimpse of what is going to be done? Can we expect a mega book by Europa Star achieve?
- [02:18]
B
So yeah, first, thank you because I call you our most loyal reader because I know you started reading Europa Star when you were literally a child and you kept this fond memory of us and still today you tell us how much you enjoy receiving the magazine. So you are. First, thank you to you and thank you to David and thank you to everyone for this appreciation because this is what motivates us to go on towards this centenary. So yeah, for the 100 years, you know, we had a lot of international discussion and thoughts, you know, because we have family. So as you mentioned, certainly. So the different generations have to convene under the same roof and talk about it and arguments and so. But what I can tell you is that we're going to stay quite close to what we have been doing for 100 years, which is editorial, which is creating concepts, creating contents about this industry. And what I can also say is that these last past five years, five to 10 years, actually, we've been working a lot on the heritage, a bit like the whole industry, I feel. These last five years has been a big exercise in heritage, in digging the archives in the industry, coming up with the right appealing watch design from the past. Of course, I just come back from the LVMH Watch week where there was the likes of Gerald Genta, the names, Daniel Rhodes being revived. So, yeah, that was a big sequence, I think, in watchmaking these last five years. However, for our centenary, we really want to look forward for the next hundred years. So, yes, we will tell our story and thank you for giving me the opportunity to tell it today. But we really want to look forward, we really want to think of the next generation of content providers. So you can expect a lot of formats, a lot of voices, a lot of surprises, but looking really with a focus on the new generations and what's coming next. And always in this game, in watchmaking between what was before what's coming up. So we're going to be maybe a bit more towards what's coming up.
- [04:36]
C
Fantastic. So before I take over, just very quick anecdote. So, as Alan said, I basically introduced myself to Serge. It was at the Wheel of Watches show in Paris. And so he says, I work for europastar and I know of it, I'm sort of in the industry without being in the industry. But I knew it was a big deal, so I was like, all right, I'm going to make Robin Allen proud here. I'm going to get like the leader of Europa Star to come join the show and then I tell him and Alan's like, oh, yeah, Serge and I go way back. So I guess the point of this is when people say the watch industry is small, they mean it. Don't make enemies in the watch industry because everyone knows everyone else. The other thing I'll say too, very quickly, unfortunately, I don't think we're going to see you on video, Serge, but for the listeners, he is sitting in front of old archives of Europa Star. And I guess they're from the 60s, I think it looks like.
- [05:24]
B
Yes, so, yeah, absolutely, from the 40s, 50s, 60s.
- [05:29]
C
And I'm just, I can't even see them that well. But I'm, I'm, I feel like I'm time traveling right now looking at that because the watches are from that time and, and the colors are just, just really beautiful in that way. So what I'm saying is I'm encouraged to go look through your archives. It would Be literally a time capsule.
- [05:47]
A
So for I'm jumping in quickly for our dear listeners, Serge has been on the show. I urge you to scroll back or just type in the search of whatever pod platform you're using to listen to this episode, to listen to that episode and as well as his associate Martin of the Watch Library, where that is a foundation, I believe.
- [06:12]
B
Yes.
- [06:12]
A
And the biggest source of that LLM, because basically that library is a large language model, if we translate it to the AI Times, which is an amazing database of which Europa Star is a big contributor, but definitely not the sole contributor. There is a Europa Star Club because Serge is very modest. So there is a club that you can take a subscription to where you can do a deep dive in their archives, which is amazing. Now I was fishing for a book because I've been nagging Serge for basically two books that I want Europostar to publish out of self interest as a Watch nerd. For those that know, I'm a sneaker head as well. And I love the sneaker freaker books that a do a history overview of shoes that have been. But also I have a gigantic thick book that shows the history of the sneaker industry with advertising. So I've asked to create two of these books for the watch industry and a fun fact together with my friend Lee Juan Roh Paty, fantastic font designer, maybe the best designer. He also works for Fears in London. He and I went together to an exhibition at the London Transportation Museum where they had a temporary exhibition of handcrafted billboards focused on the art deco era. So I had a masterclass, a private masterclass about fonts with him. So we see also a revival in that for advertising. So if you agree with me that Sarah should publish this book, please spam him.
- [08:04]
B
Yeah, who knows? Maybe your dream will come true.
- [08:07]
A
Okay, David, Mike to you.
- [08:10]
C
All right, so let's start from the beginning. So Serge, something you told me, I did not know until actually right before this started, was that you just. You don't just work for europastar. So please tell us about the magazine and then your history with the magazine, please.
- [08:26]
B
Yeah. Oh, thank you. It really all started with watches, unsurprisingly, but not with publishing because my great grandfather came from a small town in Switzerland in the twenties. He was a young entrepreneur and I think we forget how young people were when they founded their companies back then. We talk about startups today being very in their 20s, people found their company. But let's remember like I think, what was it Ulysse Nardin, when He started, it was 25 or. I don't have have the exact figures, but all of them were extremely young, in their 20s, starting in this business. So it's worth a look. And he was among these people who had this idea to launch a watch brand. So he actually launched several watch brands in the twenties. One was called Transmarine, another was called Externa. But just like that, in Switzerland in the 20s, there were so many watch brands. And later on as well, until the quartz crisis, because you had the Roscopf watch, you had these elements of just kind of a supermarket for watches. And you could quite easily do your watch brand. I mean, you didn't have Kickstarter, of course, but still there were networks. So he had this opportunity to just buy watches and resell them and create his own brands. So we have pictures from that time. And he was very fond of traveling. And of course, traveling back then was not like today. It took months. You say, okay, I'm living for one month, but you were gone for nine months. So we have a lot of pictures of him in the twenties traveling to India especially. He spent months in India and also in Egypt. And there he sold watches. And at some point he had this idea, like, wait a minute, he saw there was a lack of connection. I think this word is very important in our case, a lack of connection between the watch brands, the Swiss watch brands just like him, and hundreds, even thousands of others and retailers worldwide. How to help, in a way, the globalization of watchmaking? Because Switzerland has always been such a small market, we don't have the luxury of relying on our own domestic market like the US or Japan or China. We have always had to go overseas. So that's. And still today, I mean, this is the big chunk of watch sales for Swiss brands, not the domestic market. So that's how he had this idea, to connect people, essentially connecting people. And he started in 1927 publishing small guides, like Pocketbook guides, with all the addresses of the supplier to connect the brands and the suppliers. Because it was a huge network, much bigger than today, actually, with the number of companies now there's concentration and on. On the other side, globally, the brands, with the retailers worldwide. Because you didn't have B2C back then, with a few exceptions of big manufacturers, with collectors, huge collectors. But otherwise it was really B2C. B2B. Sorry. So there was no question of B2C like today. So connecting the brands with the retailer was just maintaining the bloodline for all these brands and just ensuring the information went right to the right Retailers and opening new markets. So that was his business. And gradually these guys became magazines, periodicals, and. Yeah, that's in several languages. He would keep traveling to South America. We had edition for Spain, Portugal, then Brazil, Argentina, India, China, in Arabic, in Hindi, in so many different languages. And so that became like a very practical actually tool for watchmakers. Yes, it was a media, but it was also a very, very practical tool, maybe like LinkedIn would be today. And so he developed that as a company from Geneva with partners all around the world, translators. And he was. I mean, it was not as easy. Well, it's not easy today, but you really had to. Printing back then was a complex task. So printing and shipping was a complex business. But you also kind of the classified ads where, I don't know, retailers in Australia or India would look for Swiss brands to carry, to represent. And inversely, Swiss brands would look to open a new market in Nigeria. And you would have the. They would all centralize this information in the office in Geneva and connect these people via the telegraph, via different means. So his whole life, I mean, he lived until he was 65 years old. He kept traveling and traveling and traveling. And essentially he was a figure of the watch world at that time. And it was a smaller world. So he knew all the big figures of the time. We could say it was a village back then, but a global village already because the main markets were outside the country. So that's how it started.
- [14:08]
C
So do you think, did he know figures? I'm hopefully not mixing up dates, but like Hans Wildorf, I think Rolex is what, the 1920s, he knew those people, the founding kind of members of today's industry.
- [14:19]
B
Yes, they traveled together, actually. We have pictures of him. They traveled to India together. And we had actually a partnership with Rolex since 1932. So it's really. Yes, it was already important brand and yeah, in this pragmatic way of opening new markets and it was really how you conduct your business back then. It was access to information and he would come back. He had three daughters, including my grandmother. And, you know, it was a different time. They traveled a lot together. All his daughters were also the secretaries. So my grandmother talked to me about the travels she could do in the 40s to Brazil, taking the boats and traveling to these countries and very exotic and yeah, you know, that's how you shape curiosity in a child's eye in a way. And at some point, you know, I say different time also because my great grandfather wanted a gentleman to succeed him. I think my grandmother would have been a Terrific businesswoman, because she was. She was very. I think she was tough in negotiations. But essentially there was a deal to be made that if you wanted to marry one of the three daughters, you had to spend six months in the company to see if you were eligible to succeed. You know, like it was already kind of dynastic philosophy. So then. Yeah, then she met my grandfather and he was selling ties, you know, back then, and he became also fond of this job and they worked together. And just a nice anecdote is that three months ago I met again in Geneva, an ex employee of Europostar. He's now 82 years old. And he started in 1960 as a trainee. He was 18 years old. He started with my great grandfather, then he spent 30 years with my grandfather, 10 years with my father. Now he's retired, and I told him, I will introduce you to my children. I have two children. Because in. In that way he would know five generations of the same family. And he was in charge of circulation. He was precisely in charge of sending all the magazines around the world from the 60s to the 2000s. And when he told me when there was the arrival of the computer, he had to manually enter 180,000 addresses from the logbook to the computer. So, yeah, it was quite the logistic.
- [17:35]
A
You know, this is amazing because I've known, well, the Mayar is now for two generations and heard many stories. That story of traveling with Wilfsdorf, I didn't know. And while listening to you, Serge, I envision the Basel world. Yeah, Mesa Basel, which, when it died, I believe three, four years ago, it was 103 years old. So the fair was a tiny bit older than Europe Star. But imagine walking your great grandfather walking around like the mayor of the watch industry down the little aisles in Europa Star Club, the digital library. I've looked up the old maps of.
- [18:17]
B
Yes, that's amazing.
- [18:18]
A
Which you guys can find there. And I literally. I blew it up. And I looked at every brand and then you could see the evolution, the growth of a brand according to the meters of the fairground.
- [18:31]
B
Absolutely.
- [18:32]
A
Very interesting.
- [18:33]
B
Yeah. First thing was it was more democratic. The fair was really the. I mean, back then, brands would do 80% of their business as a yearly business during one week in Basel. That's why connecting with the retailers was so important then. It was about distribution. So having a big impressive stand was so important to impress the retailers that came once a year to Switzerland. And you can see, as you rightly say, it's at the beginning, maybe because we've been Exhibitors as well. For 80 years at the Basel Fair, it started 1918, actually. And you can see at the beginning the booths were a bit more democratic, maybe like the EPHJ today in Geneva has still this philosophy of having similar booths for everyone. But then over the years, yeah, you see some booths expanding. It was a reflection of the market evolution. But it was a village. It was a village. It still is in some way, but it really had this village vibe back then.
- [19:39]
C
So if you're trying to start a micro brand and you want to revive something, you know where to go look. Now just go look in the archives and just find a name that hasn't been taken.
- [19:48]
B
Yes. You know what I call sometimes? It's not a very nice word, but let's say it anyway. I call the archive sometimes a graveyard because so many brands disappear. That's how you realize. I mentioned the 20s. You had so many brands, but so many brands. Every other page you find. You find the big names. Yes, but you find. So sometimes you have resurrection. And I think this. I mentioned Daniel Roth and Gerald Jonta. I could mention Universal. I could mention lately Urban Jorgensen. Very successful revival, I feel, these last two years. And we're going to see major revivals still. But we've seen so many interesting revivals. I think this is an era where there's a lot of dynamic. So looking at this, I'm very happy to see some names that I thought I was the only one knowing. And they suddenly. Like Eska. You know Eska? Very. Of course, like Eska. I remember already 10 years ago. I saw it in the archives. And now he's doing editions with you, Alan. So it's quite amazing. It's quite amazing. It's like an infinite source of inspiration.
- [21:04]
A
We have Eska and Elka. So we have two that are.
- [21:08]
B
Sorry, sorry,
- [21:11]
A
it's one letter. But Eska is the David, Elka is the Dutch. So know your history. To prevent. To make the same mistakes as yesterday. Talking of future and bridging it with the past. Before we switch gears, David. And I'll let that to you to take it to the digital side of things. And you, most probably you and I did not prepare this. But most probably on your list of questions is how the heck did Serge make Europe a star survived the last 10 years or 50 years. Yes, I'll leave that question to you. While listening to you, Serge, it dawned upon me that you are the reincarnation of your predecessors and. And your great grandfather and grandfather and uncle and dad. Because I've met You, more than a decade ago, actually, the first year that you started, you did a grand tour like your great father. I remember you went from Latin America, Europe to Asia. You just told us before we started recording that you're about to take a trip to the airport because you're doing a whole Asia Japan tour. Me, as a retailer and a huge collector, I digest every word in Europa Star magazine, like I did last night with the DLG research about AI. And I send you an email. I need that PDF for a friend of mine, which is such quality. And you guys do everything in house to. To create a framework. Serge. And. And that was the highlight of my career, making it into Europe a star. To be interviewed by Europa star, probably 15 years ago. I don't even remember when you started, Sergeant. You just hopped on a train unplanned. You didn't want to do it by phone, you didn't want to do it in writing, you didn't want to do it by email. We didn't have video calls. Maybe then you just hopped on a train to come to see me, just for that interview. And that blew my mind. Like this trip you're doing to Japan. I remember the previous report about Japan. These reports are still very valid for us industry insiders. Like most brand retailers, we create an overview. Why are you going to Japan tonight? Talk to us about this need for Europa's existence. Basically,
- [23:47]
B
yeah. So thank you, very happy to travel and I should come back to see you actually in Amsterdam and London now. So what we do, our philosophy of editorial philosophy at Europa Star, we are maybe not the loudest, but I think we maintain our philosophy quite strongly. It's to write so that we can be read or listened to even a year, two years, three years from now. And that is hopefully still remains relevant in that sense. That yes, we follow a bit the agenda of the industry, we release the news, et cetera, but there's also, I mean, we have access to all of this, so we try to bring something original, perspective. So we work a lot with thematic reports, like on Japanese watchmaking, for instance, and the new scene of Japanese independence, for instance. And also how brands are the new luxury strategy. With Credor arriving, for instance, at the Watch the Wonders fair this year, and Casio Citizen, the big brands, how they evolve and so many interesting insights. But we try to propose, in a way, our own editorial agenda, not follow what the industry is giving us only, but try to create editorial angles. And I think that that's how we elevate our magazines over the last 10 years is to, by the way, just follow the recipe that work for mechanical watchmaking, try to think long term and do good craftsmanship, editorial craftsmanship, in a way. And I called ourselves a bit editorial manufacturer. As I mentioned, it's made in house. I know the word manufacturer has a bit lost its meaning, but we try to be very genuine in what we do and bring a fresh perspective on different things. It can be online, it can be in print, it can be in video, it can be in different formats, just like you do with the podcast. I think there's a strong curiosity from all the collectors as well to know how the industry works, discover new brands and what's behind the scene a bit. Not only the technical aspects of the watch watches, but just how the industry evolves. And people, I think, feel part of this industry when they support a micro brand. For instance, they become a part of this micro brand of this story when they have a dialogue with the watchmaker, when they wait for so long for a watch, it's sometimes a matter of life or death for these brands. So I think there's a sense of the watch world being more and more refined. I like to say that in every family there's one person who loves, loves, loves watches. The rest of the family doesn't care at all about watches. So more and more I think we're going to focus on that family member because there are lots of families around the world and I think we still have a lot of, of people just to nourish their passion, nurture their passion. And yeah, for us, it's also what we do is a passion. So we hope to convey that. And it's often easier to. We have to select the contents that we. So for me, providing like a magazine is providing a curation of content, not randomly having one article after the other. You provide an experience, you choose very carefully what's coming next and that there's a link between all the things that you providing. Yeah, so that's in a nutshell, that's how we. And we are of course, in the heart of this industry and we have been at the heart of this industry for a long time. And I would say what makes us maybe a bit different is that we like to cover the. Also the suppliers and craft people that are not always in the limelight, what's behind the scene and connecting. I think essentially we haven't changed since. For a century. Yes, we have changed in the format, we've changed, but our philosophy has remained the connection, I mean, connection between all the people in this industry. The difference is that back then we were maybe alone. And now there are hundreds and hundreds of Watch media around. And the. The know how is. Is incredible.
- [28:58]
C
So this gets to the heart of what I wanted to talk about. So I want to make a comment first and then follow up on something you said. It's interesting you're going to Japan because Japan in the same way Alan's a sneakerhead. I'm kind of in. I'm into menswear, I've been for a long time. And the Japanese approach to everything is one of extreme study. And I don't know how many Watch magazines, just magazines, period, you've looked at Surge from Japan, but in menswear, there's one magazine which is called Popeye. And Popeye will do whole volumes on leather jackets, the types where they're made, the. The details down to the stitches. And it's to the point where some of these magazines were published years ago, but they're still sought after on ebay. And so it sounds to me like maybe without knowing it, that's the direction that Europa Star has gone down. So that's just a comment. And if you were in Japan and you'd never looked at these magazines, I'd be curious for you to flip through a Watch magazine in Japan and sort of tell me how that looks, because the philosophy is very much the same. And then I want to jump on what you said afterwards, because what I want to understand is what was it like when the industry transitioned to online? So let's say 2008, Hodinkee. Can you take us back? Maybe not quite in real time, but. But before then, during, when you're starting to think, okay, something's happening here, and then right afterwards and how you managed to pivot, because you said yourself you didn't change, but you're still here and you've survived. So can you walk everyone through what that time was like, please?
- [30:32]
B
So we first launched a website in 1995. So we've been. I mean, Internet is becoming almost vintage today because. And you can actually find how it looked like back then. Now we are in the art universe, artificial intelligence age. So there's a whole new chapter, I think, opening up. And that was the topic of our latest issue. Because AI is going to change. I mean, everything in the Watch knowledge, including, and operations. But we are humans. So yes, it's going to change, but we're going to stay humans. And I think the more we're going to go towards a digital age and the more we're Going to appreciate mechanical watch or print magazine, or by contrast to the artificial life, in a way. But coming back to your questions. Yes, actually when I joined, I would say it was peak moment of everything moving digital to the digital world and 2014, 2015. And yes, so I arrived there and I think that's also what made me stay. Because first I was just actually coming to. Because I was a journalist in other segments and I was just coming to help for a little while and I didn't know if I would stay or not. There was no succession, talk or plan anything. It was just opportunity. And I say, okay, there's an editorial challenge. It's not only writing, it's also recreating, reinventing, while staying true to what we were until then. Because I think we all come from something and we were always the industry magazine, the insider, insider industry. And B2B, as I mentioned first. And then we moved to B2C because I think today everything is connected. And watch aficionados, collectors are in a way almost part of this professional world of watchmaking. They know so much and they trade watches. But that was our roots. Then in the 2000s, you had a lot of lifestyle magazines appearing. There was an emergence of luxury watchmaking, really becoming a luxury. So also the communication changed. It became a communication about luxury. If you look back then, before that, as I say, it was more like a village. It was more all the brands at the same level and informing, but it was less of a luxury tone than it has today. Today we take for granted that watchmaking is lux. It wasn't the case. And you could feel that in the communication. So in the 2000s, you had a lot of luxury magazines appearing. And then lifestyle B2C. And then in 2010, yes, the big rise of blogs and watch media online. And I think we came from a different angle because people who created this media were essentially collectors themselves. We came from the industry and they came from the collecting scene. So they talked to collectors and they were also selling watches in some cases or bracelets or straps. So closer, I would say, to the behavior of collectors. And that's why it was maybe always a different angle. But I wouldn't say it was easy. I would say it was shift because you could compare the digital revolution to the print revolution of the 16th century. So yes, we had to adapt, but we never consider like abandoning prints. And when I saw that also the digital media starting doing then in the 2020s, their own print magazines, I thought, okay, maybe we were not wrong not abandoning the print magazine, because I Think print is perfect for watchmaking. And we extended our distribution to the collectors and clubs, and I think we kept our identity and people. I would say the big change for us is that we embrace digital. We embraced digital to give a new life to the archives that we had. So digital helped print in a way become relevant again, because watchmaking is a treasure hunt today and people want to have access to the sources. So it was the best of both worlds. And now we see that the brands are maybe more mature in the way they operate and they have a mix of digital and print. For me, we shouldn't even oppose or compare digital prints. It's not about the channel or the media only. It's about the singularity of everyone, the identity of everyone. I mean, like brands that can propose interesting quartz watches or mechanical watches. So I think this comparison or position for me is a bit obsolete. And I think it's more maturity to the serge.
- [36:02]
A
You guys are omnichannel. You have multiple touch points. For me, the touch points, indeed. As a kid you referred to. Before I could read, we literally had the stacks of Europa Star magazines, the English version, in our home. So when I started learning English around, I don't know, seven, eight, I could start digesting the words, although beforehand it was very visual for me. Fun anecdote for you. I love Ming. They did something cool, innovative, which you featured in your newest Europa Star magazine, doing a chapter about innovations in the watchmaking industry on a product level, not AI where you featured their poly mesh bracelet. First ever 3D printed titanium bracelet, which is done in collaboration with an Italian part. So I mentioned the name to people and they're like, how the hell do you know who that is Alone? I'm like, very easy. 30, 40 years I've seen their ad in every Europe. A star magazine.
- [37:04]
B
Yeah.
- [37:04]
A
It's a picture with all these braces, gold and everything.
- [37:07]
B
Yes.
- [37:07]
A
So yes, it shows the directory function you used to have and still have now, but you didn't stand still. Touchpoint is digital newsletters online articles in conjunction with print. I think you do less deep online. The deep deep articles are in print, obviously on the socials I encounter you and Europa Star innovative was Maybe you guys remember during the lockdowns Clubhouse.
- [37:36]
B
Yeah.
- [37:37]
A
Seriously. Podcast mining the digital database, doing an article episode that is recorded as a podcast.
- [37:49]
B
Yeah.
- [37:49]
A
Shut down the podcast of an hour and continue an audio discussion afterwards. That's not recorded. Very innovative mentioning that surge. Obviously we all have limitations in capacity and capabilities, financial time, team members. What is it you lack doing what Would you have like to do as a content creator that your star can't or has to do bridging now, future plans slowly for you?
- [38:24]
B
Yes. Yeah, no, that's a good point. Of course. And I see this passion I receive, I think like many media, a lot of people who want to write, who want to have an access, who want to have a voice. And I think that's where sometimes we try to have new contributors, we try to have people writing or doing new formats. We developed audio, we developed video. But of course, that's where I think, when I mentioned also these new generations, these new generations of writers, of people who want to contribute. And I think where we can still work is to give a voice to all these people, be a platform for maybe more. Because as I mentioned, we have been operating very much in house as an editorial manufacturer in our own size and covering not only watchmaking, by the way, just want to mention that we also have magazines on jewelry and magazines on micromechanics. These are very important segments for us as well. And so we are in different editorial worlds, but we find bridges between all these worlds. But I see that, yes, there is a. I think for the future we want to become increasingly a platform for more voices as well. People like the tone we have, we provide and the reports, but we cannot do. I mean, at some point it's like in this ecosystem, you have different takes and different voices and different angles and specialties. And the biggest resource is time to allocate also, yes, money, but also time to review everything. But the tools are here. We can produce way more than before because we have everything at hand. So I think the biggest change in the last five years has been the number of people getting an interest in watchmaking in the first place. And yeah, if we can have more formats, diversity, that's always our goal as a publisher. It's to increase the number of. To surprise people, to surprise people with new formats. And I think the centenary will be a good opportunity to explore all of this.
- [40:55]
C
I love that attitude. I say whenever I can that I'm here because Alon and Rob took a chance on me. And it's very rare for people to actually do that. So it's really, you know, it's nice to hear you say that, Serge. And I would say to anyone listening, if you think you have what it takes, drop a line with some pitches and who knows what'll happen? So that's great. And I want to come back, back to this conversation about new media and blogs, because something that is often said about these new meat, well, not really new so much now, but these relatively new platforms is that they're very hand in hand with the brands, I think we can say. And there's even points where I've read an article and I'm thinking, did you write this because you wanted to or because you had to? And europastar, you were part of the connective tissue of the watch industry. I don't know that it's possible to be more hand in hand with brands as you are as a media platform. So how do you balance having that editorial integrity with the fact that you do have these incredibly close relationships with brands that buy ads that support your. Support your magazine?
- [41:57]
B
Yeah, that's a key point and always has been. And I think you have to earn the respect also for what you do. And if you want to reach a singularity, you cannot just do what is said to you. So what I mean by that is that I think the more you provide original voice or original take, we do it with respect, but we can state things that we feel and we observe. So I think you gain more respect by doing that and you build your own identity and it's what allows you to build something on the long term, it's to create. You create your own agenda. I think I always come back to this is like you will cover what you. Yes, the agenda of the industry when there's a show. But you always keep in mind that. And that's why I love print also because it's not when I work digital all the time, but I feel sometimes like in a hamster wheel where I have to cover the new, the new, the new, the new, the new release, the new watch, the new thing, the new that. But I like the print because you have a fixed calendar in the year and it's like a moment in time where you are obliged to settle down, think what you're going to put in there, have the curation and not being always in the. Being in the way. So that's super, super, super important for us. And I think that's what we want to continue doing is provide these reports and provide this voice, singular voice. And today it's a very loud world. Today it's your have voices. I mean it's a loud world, but you have more opportunity also. So it's a mix of feeling, I would say.
- [44:21]
C
So Serge, can I be bold and suggest another revenue stream for you, please? So we've been talking about it. I would love to see Europa Star merch. Like, you know, you can get a Hodinkee baseball cap or a New York Times baseball cap. I would love to see sweatshirts with some of those old archives archived covers on them or maybe a Europa Star baseball cap. I think you could probably put Alan down for at least two of those if you had a Europa Star baseball cap.
- [44:47]
B
And sneakers.
- [44:48]
C
And sneakers, obviously.
- [44:49]
A
Obviously sneakers.
- [44:50]
B
No, I think. And we have mugs for our private use. But no, absolutely. It can be interesting to work on the archives. Actually, I want to shout out to give a shout out to also to my cousin Lorenzo. And you know him, he's doing amazing work with High Stouts and the Aphedema Agency. And I think it's part of the, of this new generation that they, they are reviving vintage symbols and so yeah. And they, they do a lot of caps as well. I think
- [45:30]
A
it's funny you mentioned because that bridge is us because Scarlett Baker is a co host on Real Time show. So that's where all the integrate and not collide. Talking of which, I I was starstruck because I met Lorenzo only for the first time in London in December during the launch party of Heist out edition number three.
- [45:54]
B
Yes.
- [45:54]
A
He's like, Lorenzo, Maya. I said Maya, I didn't understand that who was a part of the dynasty. And I'm like wait, but so your search cousin. He's like, yeah. I said who's your dad? And then his dad is my hero. Because I wouldn't be worried if I was serge about digital YouTube podcast AI. I I'm. I would have been worried about one thing. May his uncle live till 120. How am I going to feel? The last page of Europe Star which is dubbed Last words first Correct to start.
- [46:35]
B
Last words.
- [46:36]
A
Last words to start. Because that is my favorite column in the world and I always start with that page first.
- [46:44]
B
That's why, you know, we call it like that because we read. I always tell also the best place to advertise in the magazine is actually the inside back cover. Cover the page before the back cover. Because people really read the magazine the Japanese way, they start with the end. So that's why when you take a magazine you can do it. I don't know, it's a reflex. Most people then if you really read it, you can start by the beginning. But if you just live through it, you will start by the end. And we noticed just that it was a funny little take on that habit of people starting by the end.
- [47:29]
A
So sorry to hog the mic. So I the first merch, David, I liked your idea is philosophical quotes by Pierre Meyar. On T shirts or whatever. Because he's a philosopher and, and, and
- [47:43]
B
he's a movie director.
- [47:45]
A
Yeah, he's a movie director and a philosopher and Lorenzo has that instilled in them. They do very cool creative stuff. So thank you for the shout out. I know you need to run to the airport. So David, last question to you and then we'll do the other.
- [47:58]
C
Yeah, so this is another one of those conversations that we could spend a lot more time on. And I want to end with one very small, insignificant question. What do you think are the main trends that define the watch industry today and where do you think they'll take us in the next five to 10 years?
- [48:14]
B
Where I see the most energy is in brands that are reviving names. I mentioned Gerald Jontard, Daniel Roth, Orban Jorgensen, Universal. So I think we're going to see more and more, more of that happening because in a way you really fun or you restart an adventure and in an economic landscape that is more difficult, you can only grow from that. Right. So I think if you start or restart an adventure now, you have a mindset that is a bit lighter and more creative than if you go through this time as an established brand because you've known the years of the 20, 22, 23, where you see a huge influx of new buyers. Today is harder, but on the long term, I think what I take from this sequence from the last five years is how relevant socially the mechanical watch has become, whatever the trimester we are in today, and hopefully we want to see new markets emerging. We've recently did a whole issue about industry India. It's promising markets, of course, but takes a long time to build Rome, as we say. So I would say that the energy in this relaunch and new project is huge and I'm not worried for the relevance, social relevance of mechanical watchmaking and I hope we still keep some accessible products as well in this industry because you need to feed the dream and it would be too bad to just leave this market shares to anyone. But I'm quite optimistic, to be honest. And if you look long term, I think that's the beauty of having a company that is really as almost 1 century old is that you can change a bit the gears and the perspectives and go beyond the turbulences, hopefully and see the light. That's, I hope, a good message and a passion, I would say. You know, when there are times of difficult times economically for journalists, it's a huge opportunity to write even more stories because that's usually where interesting things happen. And we see these last days on the business fronts there's a lot to say and I think when you have segments like this it means that there's redistribution of market shares and as a journalist I'm a excited so I, I
- [51:30]
A
said David is asking the last one which just gave me an opening. I wanted to ask you off the record day before we recorded late in the evening it was announced that Richemont sold off B. Mercier to Damiani Group who's originally a jewelry group and has a retail chain. What's your view on that?
- [51:50]
B
Well, it's about I think alignment. Richemont is very well known for his power in high end Watchmak and Baume. Mercier also I think has a good chance to an Italian market being an important one for them having new energy and dynamic for these brands. I think there's a good chance to do something positive hopefully because it's always you need to have an alignment I think in any group good alignment coherence in your portfolio and I think now it's becoming the flagship brand of a new group that's been around for a while but in watchmaking they have Roka, they have originally a jewelry group. So I think when you become the flagship of a new it gives you a new perspective, new dynamic and you become number one one in your own circle. And yeah, I think it can go hopefully in the right direction because they have this 200 years history that not everyone knows about it and it's something they can bring value to and they are part of this ecosystem of accessible brands that I still see. Even though lot of analysts say that these segments is going to be tougher and tougher and probably that's true. I still see some opportunities because not everyone can, can afford to jump immediately into Auto Horie, you know so it's make the dream a bit accessible. Right.
- [53:51]
A
I'm quite sure that Europa Star will be the first to interview the CEO of both Damiani Group to ask they bought it.
- [54:00]
B
You know what I already asked this morning.
- [54:04]
A
I, I, I did not expect anything else and I'm quite sure you'll be granted the first interview. The real time show did not put in request first and I'm quite sure you've also reached out to the responsible people at Richemont to ask why they sold. So I can't wait wait to read those articles. Rests me to thank you so so so much Serge for coming back on. Thank you for David for doing it and yes Rob and I are very proud of you for our dear listeners. Definitely subscribe to Europa Stars digital News AS and the physical magazine which gives you different content and different speed seeds of information. What's happening in the both watch industry, jewelry industry and also the micro mechanical world which I actually very much am interested in. It's not Europe with an E at the end, it's Europa Star.com thank you for listening for to the real time show. You can find all the previous episodes and we're creeping to 400 episodes by now. Now on therealtime show. Please do like subscribe and share this show with your friends. If you have any questions, feedback and or want to join our TRTS community on WhatsApp, drop us a line. You can find David at D a v a u c H e r on Instagram. Rob you can find at R o B N u D DS Scarlet Scarl in the Shire and unlike Rob, I'm not going to spell it me. You can find just my full name on Instagram. A L O N B E n J O S e P H Keep sane and keep on ticking. Sam.