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- [00:00]
Sylvain Berneron
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Rob Nutts
Watch fans and welcome to another hotly anticipated episode of the Real Time show. With me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Nutts, our friendly neighborhood jeweler, Alain Ben Joseph, and our humble rambler, Scarlet Baker in the studio with one of our all time favorite guests and one of our best friends in the industry, Sylvain Berneron. Back again after a wild. How long has it been? Almost two. Two years since you're on the alon. Jesus Christ. Could you not put comments like that in the chat while I'm trying to do the intro?
- [00:40]
Sylvain Berneron
That's a good, that's a great start. So for the audience Alon. Post on the chat. Such a sexy voice. It has to be this mustache.
- [00:56]
Rob Nutts
Morning, Siobhan.
- [00:57]
Sylvain Berneron
Yes, good morning, Rob. Good morning, Scarlett. Good morning, Alan. A pleasure. I can see that the mood hasn't degraded in the past years. Quite the opposite.
- [01:06]
Alain Ben Joseph
So we have set the tone. I'm just here to build up my experience with my mirage on my wrist and to have my dear friend Sylvain in my ears. Scarlet, the show is yours. Rob and I are gonna shut up.
- [01:20]
Scarlet Baker
Thank you very much. Well, what a lovely introduction and rightfully so. Sylvain, we're very lucky to have you on the show again. I believe last time you were, the questions were asked around will there ever be a burner on watch? And looking at your relationship with Breitling, and here we are two years later. You're the man that everybody's talking about. You've had such prolific journey over the past few years. Before we kind of dig into this, I've been doing a little bit of digging myself on you. And I found that there was a really beautiful quote you gave in an interview once. And you were talking about watches being present in your childhood and the kind of watches that were present in your childhood. And you said in this quote that watches at that time were far from being such a big deal like they are today. Now, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about what you mean here. Why are watches such a big deal today? What do they mean to us today in the modern age?
- [02:09]
Sylvain Berneron
When I was a kid, mechanical watches were still sort of a tool. Like my dad and his brothers were using them essentially to keep the time. But they were really living their life with, with their watches and their watches had to cope with it. So I remember my dad cutting the grass in the garden and throwing his watch in the grass because he had no micro adjustment and his, his wrist was getting bigger. So he was basically doing a contraction on his arm. So he Would throw his watch in the grass. And then this is the, the sort of atmosphere and very relaxed way of living that I grew up with. When it came to watches, I was allowed to play with it. I was not allowed to wear them, but I was allowed to play with them and to manipulate and stuff like this. And it's only from where I see it in the past 10 to 15 years that the status of the mechanical watch evolved more into jewelry, more into statue symbol for some, some part of the market. And we see less and less watches that are object to live with. Mainly because I think the Apple watch has taken that space, in my opinion.
- [03:34]
Scarlet Baker
So seeing a watch as something to live with for anybody wearing a watch of yours on their wrist. And alon, I expect you to chime in here, what does your watch represent? Why would somebody choose a Bernaron watch over any other watches in the market right now? What is it that you bring to the table that you feel is not being challenged elsewhere?
- [03:55]
Sylvain Berneron
For the record, for the audience who haven't listened to the first talk, I've been working in the watch industry for big groups like Richemont and Breitling for the most part of the last decade. And I decided to create my own company because I wanted to venture into untapped creative territories. And for example, 99% of the watches you find on the market start with a round movement, and then the designer will draw a case around to come up with a creative seam. But as a result, the mechanics are heavily constrained in a circle. And therefore we have to make technical choices that actually weaken the performance of a movement because it has to be round. The mirage is strict opposite. It's like you break all the barriers and you let the mechanics go free. And we actually constructed a movement around the shape that the gears demanded in order to perform well. So it's a. It's a complete reversed way of creating a watch. And funnily enough, it is the closest definition to the design that I like, which is form follows function. And in this case, you let the wheels take the space they need and then you draw the case around the movement. And this is where the shape of the mirage comes from. And to my knowledge, the closest example I could find would be a tourbillon from Greubel, where you have an excrescence on the case to put the tourbillon cage. But to my knowledge, this is the only current watch on the market. The Mirage, which draws its shaped case shape from the movement and not the opposite.
- [05:44]
Scarlet Baker
Alain, you're wearing a Mirage on your wrist right now. Can you tell us how you feel when you see this watch on your wrist? How is it different to other pieces you have in your collection?
- [05:53]
Alain Ben Joseph
To create a bit of context, I'm very fortunate to call Sylvain not just a friend of a dear friend. We go back maybe only four or five years, but we resonated on a very high ethical and philosophical level. He put his trust in me and showed me his first 3D print with a paper down, if I'm not mistaken. One dinner that I hosted in Geneva a few years ago and I literally fell off my chair and there and then I wanted one and I ordered one. So I'm very fortunate to have received mine a few months ago. And for those that know me and like almost everybody who listens to this pod, it's this watch hobby, which is an understatement, is a disease. It's a chronic disease, it's an incurable disease. And I love everything that has to do with time. Digital, mechanical, low end, high end. So I've been also fortunate to have the most classic Pateks and crazy pieces like and the bar was high for the Mirage for me because I've only seen a working piece. Sylvan was kind enough to to to share the developments during the years, but obviously nothing beats having your own because all my watches, I wear them, I don't have safe Queens. I rock them day and night, different outfits, suits, jeans, tracksuits, whatever. And the expectations were extremely high because if you're not that aware about what Sylvan envisioned and actually accomplished, the the everything is gold. I mean not case, not just the movement or dial, even the push pins, of course the buckle. And I've been on the fence for both the yellow and white gold. I opted in the end for white. I didn't have the funds to order both which I really wanted. And I went for the stealth mode version. And on the one hand it took quite some time till I got there. I didn't obviously not forget about it because Sylvain is a sensation because basically he's a crazy guy. But the brand Bernaron is a sensation and the design is bonkers. So expectations were high, as I've said already three times and they've been met. I've been wearing it now few months. I've shown it to journalists, to fellow collectors, red bar meetings. It's beautiful to see the responses of people that a have never seen it. And there's a cool video that by coincidence my dad was in the boutique when the parcel came in. So I did like a surprise unboxing with him. So that was spectacular to see his response because I didn't tell him I ordered one. And even though collectors have been following Sylvan's journey from A to Z and especially the TRTS community, obviously know that Rob and I, and you, Scarlet, are fan as well. We know how much you love shaped watches form watch watches. It's. It's surpassed those experience. Sorry for the long answer, but is it Patek level? No, it surpassed it.
- [09:46]
Rob Nutts
Did you answer the question? I'm still waiting. Like, how does it go?
- [09:50]
Alain Ben Joseph
Go, go. Brush your mustache. Rob, mute your mic now.
- [09:54]
Rob Nutts
There's a lot of words and I appreciate them all. I think they're, you know, very decorous.
- [09:58]
Alain Ben Joseph
No, but. But you. You know what? I'm still in the. Let me give you a short answer. I'm still in the honeymoon phase and I'm very happy the honeymoon phase is taking that long. I love the way it plays with light. The satin and polished facet of the gold dial, the cage. The shape is mesmerizing. It looks different in every angle. I turn the watch around when I'm relaxed at home on the couch, looking at the caliber, the strap, the buckle, the thinness of the case on your wrist, it's mind blowing. So is this hauteur luxury? Hell, yes. Is it the best of the best? Yes. Is it intellectual? Yes. Is it design? Yes. Is it new? Yes. Does it look like a Cartier crash? Not at all. I know we are beasts that have to compare. We do everything by association. It has nothing to do with it. So, my brother Sylvain, I've written this to you many times, but congratulations, you've done it. I'm proud of you. When Scarlett is done, I want to ask what was chapter two, which is launched and we want to scoop on the Real Time show. What is chapter three? So, Scarlet, back to you.
- [11:22]
Scarlet Baker
Alan. That still wasn't a short answer. You know that, right? You're incapable, but no, you're so right. And you signed on from the beginning. Then Holland, you saw a sketch. And I'm right in saying that, Sylvain, that you were taking orders for a watch that, you know, there was no working prototype to necessarily show people at the time. Like, that's an incredible feat when you're just starting out and really showcasing your first watch to people. How did it feel doing that? Knowing that people were saying yes from the get go before they'd really seen anything in their hands?
- [11:55]
Sylvain Berneron
Looking back at it, it's it's only now, retrospectively that I realized the level of risk and the level of naiveness that I had towards this. So to, to explain to our audience, I effectively sold what is it like? Close to 50 watches based on a PDF and a non working dummy, which was like Alon described, a watch you could wrap on your wrist with a paper dial, no movement, no weight, you just had the size and the proportion on the wrist. The ergonomics were there, but the rest was completely gone. No finishing, no nothing. And when you talk about a watch above 50,000, the weight, the finishing, the light, the details on the movement, this is all what matters. This is the only way you can justify such a demanding price. It's because the level of craftsmanship is on par with the finances. Nonetheless, I had the extreme privilege and I will forever be grateful to the monster collectors, which Alon is definitely a part of that group, because these guys are the season collectors who have. And Alon described it, you know, when you've been in the game for three decades, you've seen the Pateks, you've seen the aps, you've seen the Rolex, you've seen the, the, the, the. The sick and sin of, of the. The various Indies and stuff. So you know how to recognize what is spicy, what can be interesting and what has potential. I like to believe because we have collectors like Roni, Madvani, Auro, Montanari, Bad Salah, you know, guys that have been at it for so long, who trusted us with their money, which helped us to fuel the production and etc. With their deposits. Now we are, two years later, we delivered. A lot of people asked me, how did you manage that? And the truth is, I'm not sure if it's very politically correct to say that, but it's still my opinion. I will take Roni because he's a great friend. It's not hard to sell a 50k watch to Ronnie because he has the means. What is hard nonetheless is to make him keep the watch. And this is where is the absolute nuance that a lot of people miss. You can sell expensive stuff to a lot of people. This is not an issue. We live in a world where you have a lot of capital. Definitely a part of the human society has the means to acquire expensive things. But when it comes to seasoned watch collectors, the bar as Alan and Alan described it perfectly, he said the bar is high. And the bar he described is the bar you have to pass in order to stay in the club. If you do not pass the bar, you will be flipped or moved on within the next six months, like we all do. I'm a collector myself. I acquired watches that took me some time to buy and to save for. I've been not as pleased as I thought I would be. And after six months or a year, I moved the piece. Not because I bought it to flip it, simply because I. I end up not loving. Loving it as much as I wanted to. So, yeah, I'm doing long answers as well, Scarlett. And so, yeah, I hope, I hope I see the targets.
- [15:33]
Scarlet Baker
It's all good. It's Rob that's doing the editing, not me. How do you feel about the comparisons that people have made of the Mirage watch? We've, we've all mentioned Patek a few times already on this call, but people saying, you know, the sort of references to, to the Cartier crash and things like that, and even calling it a shaped watch and putting it in this category. How do you feel about people making these comparisons? Because ultimately you've created a watch that is sort of defying, you know, standardized rules of watchmaking. And I know you sort of communicated that this is a watch of don'ts. What does it feel like to have those comparisons?
- [16:09]
Sylvain Berneron
I'm cool with it. I think if the worst reaction is, yeah, okay, fine, you launch something, you spend two years to work on it. You launch something and people go like, okay, thank you, see you next time. And that's all the reaction you get. That's the worst because it means it doesn't stick on the wall. People don't care. So that's the worst. And God knows the watch market is extremely dynamic, especially now, thanks to the work of the older generation like Max Busser, Kari Voutilainen, Felix at Uhwerke and Martin. We could also give credit to the Melan family with Moser. They paved the road for what I believe is the next generation. Guys like Simon, like Recep, I like to believe I'm part of that wave the second. So you have the rise of the independence. And for us, it is very hard to find a seat in the market and to say, okay, what does the Berneron stands for? What does assignment stands for? So for me, being a designer, my added value is in the fact, a bit like an architect for a house. I'm somebody who has a good level of understanding of the technique and a good understanding of fine arts and proportions. And I hope to shine in that segment where I can combine the two. So it's exceptional ergonomics together with interesting mechanics, which I think the Mirage meets A very nice blend of art and technique. And the comparisons between, the most obvious comparisons we get are usually either the crash for the shape form, which I explained to people that the end result might feel similar, but in fact the, the starting point are completely opposite because a crash is a function heavily compromised by the shape. Because Robert Emerson drew free shape and the poor watchmaker had to put a very small, tiny movement in the watch. And as a result, a crash, despite being a shape watch like the Mirage is a vastly inferior, mechanically speaking time device than a mirage. The Mirage eats crashes for breakfast in terms of chronometry and power reserve. And there is no comparison. And it's not me being arrogant, it is just physics. The movement is three times larger. We have a massive flying barrel, large balance wheel. There is not even competition. Like a crash is a knife in a gunfight compared with, in a pitch with a mirage, no question.
- [19:04]
Scarlet Baker
Do you feel like there's too much compromise in this industry?
- [19:07]
Sylvain Berneron
When I started this project, Alan knows, because I'm somebody very romantic, very naive, I go like, oh, we should do this, we could do this and. But I'm part of the few people that are naive enough to start, you know. Yeah, most, most people have this great conversation and they leave it, you know, on the beer table. Which sometimes I think is the nice strategy because I quickly understood why, and this is why this watch is called the Mirage. I quickly understood why nobody does this kind of project because it is capital intensive to, to a level which, thank God I have no kids, I don't own any, you know, real estate and stuff like this. All the money has been burned into making this project. The suppliers are very scared as well. It's all in gold, as Alan mentioned, so that doesn't help. And all the, the components of this watch are custom made for the product. So we have, except the anchor wheel and the anchor, the jewels, of course. The rest is entirely custom for the watch. And we are talking hundreds of components entirely made of gold and have been conceived, ordered, developed, homologated for that watch. And it was a one man company.
- [20:33]
Scarlet Baker
It's funny that you call it naivety because I think between the three of us, the word is definitely audacity. And rightly so considering that you won the Audacity prize at GPHG Awards last year.
- [20:46]
Sylvain Berneron
That was crazy as well. Yes, forget about that.
- [20:51]
Scarlet Baker
Please tell us about this. Like, is it a day that you remember or is it a bit of a blur now?
- [20:57]
Sylvain Berneron
No, I do remember because for the record, I didn't want to go, so I'LL tell you how it worked. I didn't apply to the gpsg. I received a call one day from the team in Geneva telling us, look, your watch has been brought to us by a lot of academy members. Many, like she said, close to 100 people nominated your watch for the GPHG and we are sad to see that you haven't subscribed know. So can you, you know, reconsider, please? Like, okay. And I'm an academy member myself, so I pushed some watches for, to subscribe. Then I never placed my own work because I think it's a huge conflict of interest. So, so I, I, I don't do that. Then I talked to the team. I didn't want to do it. Why? Because I've been, My mother taught me fine arts and she always told me that it's not about the, the, the artist, it's about the work, you know, and bringing the Mirage to the gps. She felt narcissist to some extent. It's like, please look at my watch. Give me some part on the back so that I can be happy and I can. So I didn't want to do that. And I saw how, and basically the team kicked my ass and said, well, it's not about you. So it's about Bernard on the brand and it's about us. We want to, you know, be proud and, and we wanted to celebrate, if possible, with the collectors and around the brand, et cetera. So I was like, okay. So I shut my mouth as an artist and I put my small business owner cap and I decided to listen to the team, which I gladly did. So I closed my eyes, let them file the stuff, let them pay the bills in order to make it happen. So hotels, travel, hospitality, all that. And we went to the gphg. I was extremely stressed because I was very concerned that basically if you, if you win something, it doesn't change anything because we are sold out for the next four years. We were at that time, so, so it's even worse because, and this is what happened. You receive a thousand emails, but if you don't win, I was afraid to maybe put some doubt in the mind of some people that wanted to trust us. And now, you know, we don't get the validation, so to speak. So I'm always very skeptical when it comes to that, especially because I didn't listen to these voices when I made the watch for two years. Alan will tell you, I had discussions, I had friends calling me every two weeks saying, silva, please reconsider. This is professional suicide. You will burn on your all your money. It won't end well. Please, you know, stop it. And not only I kept going. I called it Mirage. And I did it entirely in gold because I wanted to say, look, not only I will do it, but if it has to burn, it will burn in.
- [24:09]
Scarlet Baker
In burning gold.
- [24:12]
Sylvain Berneron
Yeah. A spectacular fashion. So we won the GPHD we received. I don't know, we passed the 5000 email mark right now since we started the brand. It's crazy. And in the wild, currently are 50 people wearing a Mirage. So that's the sort of contrast you have between how the brand is perceived and how we've delivered, which I'm very grateful for. It means that the work obviously speaks to the collecting community. So that's amazing. This is why we also extended the Mirage collection to a second case size with a second caliber. But then also I. I have so many other creative topics that I want to venture in, so. So this is not all what we want to do. And I. My objective this year to show that I am very grateful so that friends like Alon supported me. So when I was doing asymmetrical watches. But now I've sharpened my skills, Alon, and I'm happy to tell you that I'm now able to make a round watch. Finally, please take my money. So I hope you're proud of me. I found the compass. I'm now able to do a circle.
- [25:26]
Alain Ben Joseph
I am very much proud of you.
- [25:30]
Rob Nutts
You know, I have this hope. It's probably a vain hope, but one of these days you're going to stop torturing yourself. I know it's integral to everything you do that you. You are an artist first and foremost, and the product is an expression of that art. But going to the gphg, it's not about you. It's about the rest of us that want to see you on that stage celebrating this watch that has given us all something to be enthusiastic about, giving us something to get excited about, to write about, to change our perceptions on what a watch in the modern world could or should be. So you had to go. I'm glad that your team forced you blindfolded and sedated as you might have been, to get door. But honestly, seeing you up there receiving that award was just. I don't know, it. I. I felt it like mattered. It mattered to me personally. I was really glad for you because you deserved it because it's been such a ride and you have sunk so much into the project, as you said. This is where my question is focused. You sold pretty much everything you risked everything.
- [26:35]
Sylvain Berneron
Yeah.
- [26:36]
Rob Nutts
You had support of your friends and your wife around you, like, emotional and sometimes, I guess, maybe even a bit financial on her side. But when will you actually make money? Because it looks great from the outside looking in, right? You've sold all these watches. You're sold out till what, four years in the future, but you are constantly doing what any new business owner has to do and reinvesting more and more. There are new models coming. The workshop which anyone hasn't seen. The developmental phases of it. Go to LinkedIn, go to the burner on page, check it out. This is a massive space that you're. You're building for the next 10 years. So you're investing all that money upfront now to make sure that the company is on sound footing. So you're not just creating a great watch, but you create a great brand experience and you're giving those people that have backed you in these early days that reassurance that you're going to be around for the long haul, which none of us died, by the way. It's the most open and shot question of the industry as far as I can see it. But for you personally, are you drawing a paycheck yet or are you still like just rolling along?
- [27:35]
Sylvain Berneron
You have two sides, as you said. You have the artistic side, which is building the brand, building the product, and then you have the entrepreneur side, which Alon and yourself are very familiar with, of maintaining and building a small business. I personally am in the posture of the extremely delayed gratification and ultimate sacrifice. So to give you and I. So I could have played with the money to give you an answer. There are two types of answers. With the money that the company made, we've allocated hundreds of watches for the next few years. Some models like the Mirage history and the watch that Alon has, you email me today, I will tell you that the order book is closed. And when I will reopen the order book, I will allocate the watches by order of arrival and the first allocation will be 2029. This is how bad it is. So we are completely sold out everywhere, despite having increased the production numbers on the small cases like the Mirage 34, these ones we are allocating 2028 now so the demand doesn't stop. It's even worse the more we share it at some point. For the record, I even asked honey once, I was like, can you please stop taking pictures of the watch? Because every time you post it and you say how much you like it, I receive 50 DMS and I just can't keep up. But coming back to your answer. So the company is very liquid because we work the old way, which means if you want to order a watch from us, we require a 50% deposit. This is not because I'm greedy. It's because the young Indies like myself, as I explained earlier, making these watches are extremely capital intensive. And I need, it's a vital necessity to be sure that for example, if Rob asked for an allocation, if I don't get the 50% deposit, I still have to push on the button to produce the wheels, to produce the main plates, to produce the cases, et cetera, all in gold. And I cannot afford to have these pieces sitting in stock. If for some reason these orders become what we call ghost or blind orders in the sense that people say, oh, can I have one? And when it's the time to buy one, the money doesn't show up. So we have this very old way of doing 50% deposit to confirm the allocation. If you pay a 50% deposit, it then unlock all commitment to deliver a watch. And I am a very old school person in that matter. Like, like you, what you see is what you get. So if I tell you I will deliver Q4 20, 27, it will be that. And you can ask Alan, he waited two years to get his watch and he got the watch delivered in the quarter that we committed on years prior. So I don't mess with that. I know some independents sometimes deliver three years after the committed date, which is not a good experience. And I don't blame them because I know now very much how demanding it is to meet the delivery deadlines. When you're a small company and some suppliers don't play the game. Keep in mind that we used to say here at Berneron that your quality is as weak as your weakest component. Which means I can make 299 components to the best quality that we can. If I have one screw that is messed up, one jewel, one wheel or something, the entire quality of the watch lowers. So. But I'm deviating to answer to Rob's question. The company is very liquid because we have all these deposits. I could have easily go on and say, you know what? Four weeks in the Maldives and when I comes back, when I come back and buy a Ferrari or whatever to celebrate, because at the end of the day, I burned 15 years of my own savings to do that watch and it worked. But this is not what I decided to do. I took the benefits made to invest in a second and third caliber. So we currently have three calibers, one in production, one, the second is homologated now and is currently in production as well. And the third one is almost finalized and will enter homologation very soon. So these three calibers, we are talking close to 4 million Swiss francs of investments just for these three calibers. The workshop was also a huge commitment because. And it's always about choices, right? In life. So when you, when you want to create, to acquire, let's say, a space for your company in the watchmaking business, you have two options. Either you play the startup mentality, which is you, you hire three guys, you take a small office, then you jump to six or eight guys and you hire medium and you take a medium office, etc. Etc. But you end up packing boxes, unpacking boxes and moving every year or two years. Then you have the problematics of cash flow because the rent on both spaces would overlap. Same for insurances, when you have to move the boxes, this is not the time where the tools are being used and the people are being paid to do their job. And also, and Rob and Alo knows this, a high horology atelier is like an hospital is the last thing you want to move. You do not want to move a high horology atelier because just by moving the box you can damage the components inside just by shaking it. And you don't want dust, you don't want shocks, you don't want all of that. Which is why to me, the theory of having to move as the company expand every two years, for example, was a nightmare. So I decided to take again the hard route and I committed to a 10 year lease. So it's a 10 year, a decade rent for 600 square meters workshop in Neuchatel, close to Panerai, actually, which is the workshop that according to my calculation I will need by 2035. Because the ambition of the company is to raise our annual production by 50 pieces per year for the next decade, which will bring us to an annual production of 600 pieces by 2035. And therefore to make 600 watches a year, I need 600 square meters. So that's to answer your question. I finally, Rob, I decided to use the benefits to invest in the company, as you've said. And I am currently an employee of Berneron Sr. And I make a salary which is slightly more than half than what I was making at Breitling.
- [34:57]
Scarlet Baker
Wow, just touching on Breitling then before we move on to talk about the next chapters of Werner on, you've mentioned a couple of Times before, in the past, in interviews. You talk about Georges Kern as being one of the. The bravest people in the industry that you've been able to work with. Do you realize this sense of bravery within yourself at any point? And I know you going back to what we were saying with the gphg, you don't want to sound like a narcissist at any point, but you talk about taking hard routes and you know you've signed up to this 10 year lease. There's bravery in that song Run.
- [35:31]
Sylvain Berneron
I don't know because you know, one of my favorite teacher used to tell me, Sylvain, be careful. You know, there is a very fine line. He used to tell me this. I remember, Sylvain, be careful. There is a very fine line between creativity and stupidity. You should tell me. And here's the same line. When are you brave and when are you stupid? Because wisdom, and I think wisdom is the. Is. Is the defining factor. And we will only know in 10 years because I. And again I signed these papers and I'm telling you it's very scary. I signed the goddamn lease. And it says black on white. It says the debitor. So the person that we will take the money from is Berneron Sr. So my company. And it says black and white on the bottom. Co responsible debitor, Mr. Sylvain Berneron. Which means if the company can't pay, they will come and knock on my door for the next decade to say please give us the fucking 100 GS that you own us to pay the rent.
- [36:34]
Scarlet Baker
You know, I hope you're able to sleep at night.
- [36:37]
Sylvain Berneron
It is very scary and I joke about it sometimes I tell to my wife, look, we'll have a very large flat if I mess it up. But honestly, there is no way around it. That's the other issue. I am very concerned to give to the team the best working conditions that I can afford. So for example, this 600 square meters surface is third floor, great daylight, three and a half meter ceiling height. So it's an amazing space to work at. Parking spots at the bottom, good location, close to the train station, close to the suppliers. I developed a set of rules in the companies that I heavily believe in. For example, 100% of the components that we use for watches are made in a radius of 50km around where I live. So around where the company is in the chateau. Because we believe in local economy, we want to have proximity with our suppliers. We want to develop not only business bonds but human relationship with people in the company. We Allow home office. We have, I have this rule which is between the lowest and the highest salaries. There is a multiple of three and the salary scale is divided in eight levels. So you have a salary one to salary eight. And it goes let's say from one to three or four, five to 15, everybody. And it's transparent. If you ask for that document, I give it to every employee and this is how we work. Because I worked in big companies before, I know how ruthless and cruel it can be sometimes. Not because of the people, because of the rules of capitalism. And I am a millennial Gen Y and I'm trying to come up with my own flavor of business culture.
- [38:36]
Alain Ben Joseph
While I'm listening to you, I'm very curious. How do you experience this steep ramp up and professionalization of the organization? As a creative, do you enjoy being a manager?
- [38:50]
Sylvain Berneron
Basically, it's a good question. I, I enjoy the strategic and architectural part of the exercise. I get the privilege to sort of shape a team, shape an organization. I've made very interesting choices. I give you a few examples. In my decade in the industry, I noticed things that to me were not working. So for example, Fabian either head of technical office and operation, which means there is not the bullshit that I can see in big brands where the technical office, the constructor goes like it would be much easier to have this case back with 12 screws and it has to be locked in place. And then you have to, I don't know, use that special gasket that nobody can produce. Because from a technical perspective you would be amazing. Yeah, well guess what? Then you then your colleagues will suffer for the next decade to source, to homologate, to produce this crap. So Fabien has a very interesting position where he has to suffer the consequences of the technical construction hypothesis. He chosen, he chose before. And that I think is a very interesting way of working because you no longer decouple the choice from the consequence. And I try to keep it very simple and very, very stupid at the person who uses the tool or the person who has to make the task is the person who makes the decision. Same way I hired Hugo, a great friend of mine who is responsible and he has a very interesting role. You know, you know this alone in a big brand you have a financial director, a cfo and you have a sales director, cso. So the financial director basically looks at the pay the bills and looks at the cash flow, et cetera, et cetera. And the sales director make the sales and usually they have conflicts because the sale, the financial director goes like Stop the spending, lower the cost lower, blah blah, blah. But these guys usually tend to steal the oxygen from a company to be able to grow and to invest and to look in the future. And you have the sales guys who usually invite the company to produce as much as it can in order to make sure they have stock and they can move the inventory and they don't care if you leave a lot of watches in stock. So this is not very productive either. So Hugo, for example, has a very interesting role is head of finance and business and administration. No, sorry, it's business and administration, which means you have the two sides. If you grow your business by leaving a lot of stock, you will have to swallow that stock in your finance position and vice versa. If you decide to strangle the finances of the company by lowering the investment capabilities, you will suffer the consequences on your sales front because you will have a very weak company. And I'm sure, Alan, that speaks to you volumes because you know very well what I'm talking about. In the industry we have these conversations all the time. You cannot expect a brand to thrive when you give it 10 bucks for the next quarter to survive. Am I correct?
- [42:25]
Alain Ben Joseph
Very much so. How much percentage of your work week goes down to creativity and designing new stuff?
- [42:33]
Sylvain Berneron
Well, I should start by saying that the work rhythm. I still have two jobs effectively. I have a small business owner job and I have a designer, a lead designer role as well, which means I have to work two times 40 hours a week. I still up to this day I should mention to because I know I get a lot of DMS on, on LinkedIn and on Instagram of young guys that are 20, 25 and then they ask me I want to create my own business, I'd like to follow your path, et cetera. Give me some advice. And then I'm always very harsh and straight to the point in telling that the sacrifice required to make this work is very high. So on a daily basis I work from 8am to 8pm with one hour lunch break. So that's 11 hour of effective work per day and that is seven days a week. I should mention there is no weekends and I didn't have a single weekend since the past three years. And it's not because I'm a workaholic or something. It's because it's the only way to make it work. So effectively, the three first days of the week I am operating as a business owner. So an example, on Monday we had to go to the bank with Hugo to move some accounts and to. Because now the company is growing, so we have to split some money streams. And I had to give him the permissions on the different accounts, etc. Yesterday I had to go to the workshop to follow the construction site, which takes a lot more time than I thought it would do. Then we have to go to suppliers, we have to do quality controls, we have to acquire Mobilia Furniture on the side to. In order to build that horology workshop on the side. So that's the first half of the week. I'm basically running everywhere like. Like a crazy chicken to build that small company that needs a lot of intention in order to grow. So the first half of the week I'm basically spending a lot of cash, burning a lot of time and money, moving around, talking and consolidating our relationships. And the second half, I usually transition on Thursday, midday and Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Usually it's music on headphones. I have to draw three days straight. So, for example, the past weekend I have finalized, now it's done. It's frozen the design of the annual calendar that we're going to launch this year. And that demanded 45 hours of sketching in three days. So that was 15 hours per day. Very heavy to be transparent on the private light, for example. These kind of weekends are so demanding. My dear wife Marie Alex, for example, decided to go and hike in the mountains with her family because I'm basically a ghost. Yeah, I'm here, but I'm not here because I have to work 15 hours a day for three days.
- [45:50]
Scarlet Baker
This is not an intelligent question, but how much sleep do you get? Like when you finish, when you do eight to eight and you finished, are you able to sort of compartmentalize and switch off? Are you able to take a stuff away?
- [46:05]
Sylvain Berneron
The secret is I raced motorcycles for 20 years when I was a kid as a sport and that taught me discipline. So it doesn't look like it, but it is really like being an athlete to run a small business. So it goes. I consider the flipping time as you said. So I sleep between six to eight hours, depending on what the business demands. I haven't slept over eight hours in years. I don't even recall the next time I had a. You know, waking up at 10 is not even a thing. I wake up either at 5 or 6, sometimes at 5 because I need to go running in the morning, but I don't. I would not, for example, let myself go into a lack of sleep position because that would destroy the long term potential as well. So you really have to take in consideration the sleep, the food. I, I, it sounds stupid and some people laugh, but I am very, how do you say, sharp or, or critical on what kind of food I take, because it actually affects the productivity and the mood. For example, it's, it's the, I don't know if I go for heavy fast food, pizza or whatever at lunch. I'm not able to operate for the next three hours because I'm digesting instead of, you know, cracking up stuff that I need to do. So I even take that into consideration. It sounds dramatic when I say it. I am happy to report nonetheless that the company now has a payroll of seven people. So you see, in the span of two years, we are now able to generate seven salaries. We are able to generate the lease for the workshop that I described. So it does pay dividends. I give you another anecdote. We went to the bank recently, as I said two, two days ago, and we've been ambushed. I won't give the name of the bank, but Alon can guess it out because he has all bank numbers being a client. But they ambushed us. It was supposed to be a sort of weekly or monthly meeting to move a few accounts and stuff. And they ambushed us with this wealth management team. And they came and say, oh, you know, we saw you have quite a lot of volume liquid on the accounts, blah, blah. Would you be interested to let us play with it? Basically, this is not the way they say it, but this is effectively what it means. And I asked them, look, I know there is a lot of money on the accounts, but it's not what it looks. That money cannot be played with because this is the money of our clients and I'm not using it because that money will go into production when time is due in order to make the watches. And they were surprised. I should not say this, but I mean, fuck it, they were like, no, but let us play with it. It will make benefits and dividends and stuff like this. And I'm like, no, no, no, you don't understand. I'm, I'm the farmer type. Yeah. If I take 10 bucks from you to give you a potato, the 10 bucks won't go anywhere else unless it's on the road to get you the potato. There is no way around this because otherwise this is when I can't, I lose sleep when I start doing this shady stuff. This is where I lose sleep. So bottom line is, we've declined that. I've been called stupid again, but I'm now very used to it because everywhere I go, I'M being called stupid, whether it is the banker or the suppliers or stuff like this, but I'm a happy man like this. And the biggest reward for us is, you know, like, because at the end of the day, what matters, I work with cool people that are very competent. I am so grateful. We have, like Fabian, Hugo, Virgil, people that have 10 years of experience, accepted to come and work in the company where they worked in prestigious companies before. So I am surrounded by people that actually kill it at their craft. Very, very good. And also I'm surrounded by collectors that are our best supporters. Like, for example, when Alan sends me a video and I see his father, which has been in the business for, you know, four decades, and you see a smile on his face. This is worth the entire money of the world for me because you cannot fake this. You see the video, his dad is completely caught by surprise, which is the worst exercise ever. He's been thrown a $50,000 toy in his hands and you go, dad, what do you think of that? And you can tell the reaction is genuinely positive. This, to me is the best reward of all the sweat we've put in.
- [50:52]
Scarlet Baker
Speaking of all the sweat that you're putting in, you mentioned the annual calendar there, and I think everybody is sort of looking at you right now, excited to see the next step and what the next chapter will look like. Please tell us.
- [51:03]
Sylvain Berneron
It's very important to have a vision in terms of product portfolio and company building, for example. If I didn't have that vision, I would not know what kind of space I need to secure right now. I would not know what kind of investment I need to do in the years coming. So when I started the business, I decided to start with the Mirage because I thought it was the best ratio of visual impact versus innovation in terms of product novelty, which is why I decided to start with the Mirage 38. But I do have a 10 year, 12 year product plan, actually that goes up to 2035. That's the first chapter of the company. And in these 12 years, we're going to launch one, watch, one new product per year, every year. And the goal, as I said, is to land in 2035 with four different collections. So, for example, the Mirage is one collection. This year we're going to inaugurate our second collection, which will be a collection of what we call cantiemes in French, which are a cantieme you can have, it can be a date, a gmt. It's basically an instrument that counts something. So that will be the second collection, a Collection of cantiemes. We start with a very interesting piece, which is an annual calendar. So it will be a cantium annual in French. We'll get back to it. And in 2035, the goal is to have these four collections around 1618 references and an annual production of 600 pieces. So if I make 600 pieces and I have 1618 references, you can split it all down and realize that we basically make 40 pieces, 40, 50 of each model per year. So it will always remain a very confidential, very small production for two reasons. First, I do not believe in large quantities. At the time of my dad, when these were tools, it's fine, you can produce wagons of these things because it's like a hammer. Everybody needs a hammer so you can produce millions. But I think the industry should now understand that a watch is no longer a tool. It has, in my opinion, shifted to a jewelry slash, status symbol, slash art piece. And you don't produce as many paintings as you produce hammers. Therefore, I no longer believe in the high volume, high price strategy. Because even if you manage in a year, for example, some, some finance guys came to, came to me and said, well, I've done a quick analysis. I think you should have multiplied by five year production the first two years and you would have moved these pieces and you could have made X millions. And I was like, yes, I know, thank you for that great analysis. But I don't produce more because one, I can't afford it. I do not have millions, tens of millions in the bank. And usually these guys, they push you to do this because they want to give you the millions in order to become an investor in the company so that I end up working for them. That's the end of their speech. But also I want to protect my clients. So for example, I am, I sleep very well when I know that Alon, which is one of our collectors, has a watch in his collection which is acquired at a fair price, considering the amount of work that goes into his watches. For the record, making one mirage demands 400 hours of combined labor if you include the manufacturing of each components, the assembly, et cetera, et cetera. 400 hours, which is massive. But also he has the peace of mind to know, and I know it's a barbarian way to say it, but every collector is slash an investor because nobody likes the idea of acquiring stuff and knowing that when you leave the door, you lose your shirt with it. Yeah, I. None of our clients buy all watches to make money. But it's still a good feeling when you know, look I have this watch because I committed early. If somebody wants a new one, it's a five year wait list. And I know that no matter what, there will be 120 watches of this ever produced. Because this is what, this is the commitment I took. And I think it's therefore a good deal and a good addition to a collection. And this is for me extremely important. So this is why we make so little. But I lost the initial question, Scarlett. Was it, was it about quantity? I'm not sure. I go in massive circles. But can you frame me again?
- [56:02]
Scarlet Baker
It's good. Well, I wanted to sort of leading on from that. I wanted to ask you. We're looking at the Mirage of. As a watch of. Of don'ts of things that brands are encouraged not to do, to compromise on to, to. To put aside. And you counteracted that and you know, challenged it face on. Well, the don'ts that we have in the Mirage manifest and also exist in this new annual calendar. Will we also be looking at more don'ts that you've sort of tackled and gone, well, why not do instead of don't. Like, let's do it in this watch instead and even push it further.
- [56:37]
Sylvain Berneron
Yes, yes, yes, yes, definitely. I should start by saying that I am not interested into venturing into a segment of the market just because it works. If I, if I make a new product, it's because I believe we can bring something to the table. So this new collection of Cantiem. It's too early to say. So to give the schedule, we will have the first sketches or visuals to share at Watches and Wonders. And we will have the first prototype to share. And Geneva watch days in September. And all annual release physically is always in first week of September during Geneva watch days.
- [57:21]
Scarlet Baker
How long have you been working on the Kong 4?
- [57:24]
Sylvain Berneron
Yes, this is also. I mean, you asked the right questions. You've been, You've been right. So to give you also an idea of the. The how scary these commitments are, I started the, the caliber 233, which is our first caliber in the Mirage 38 back. Oh God, it was three and a half years ago. Three. Three and a half years ago. Even before we had launched the FE, even before I had shown to the public the real watches. I already started the development of the second Mirage Caliber, which is the smaller 34 millimeter case sizes with the stone dials which we received an amazing feedback for. And I so grateful again. So this caliber, the. The annual calendar we started 18 months ago. So that's. Yeah, we started right Before Christmas, not last year, the year before. So it's already. Yeah, we are already a full year.
- [58:29]
Alain Ben Joseph
On talking about pipelines and plannings. If I remember correctly, the original plan for the first Mirage was 10 years, 20 a year. So 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12. And then it's done. Are you sticking to that plan?
- [58:50]
Sylvain Berneron
We stick to that plan in the sense. No, we stick to it. Boom. Schloos. So that's the A series, but then I will. So the Mirage 38 will live on forever. The Mirage collection will live on forever. But then I will do a B series, a D series, et cetera, et cetera, every 10 years. And there will. It will never be the same watch. We will make the caliber evolve, the design evolve slightly. My goal is that in 50 years, for example, I will be at the E or F series, for example, and you will have a clear line of continuity, visual continuity, between your piece, which is a series, like a Royal Oak, for example. You can. Basically, what you've acquired is an autulys or a look, a series. And I will keep reducing it, always in low numbers, to make sure that that concept lives on, because I think it deserves to leave on. It's interesting to show to the communities that you can create a designer watch from the inside or you can do the opposite. Like the Mirage is basically a watch drawn from the inside to the outside. And in 50 years, I hope, if I do my job well and then trust me, that I will try my best to do so, that your watch will be as valuable as one of the Royal Oak, A series or Nautilus A series. And there will be 120 pieces of your watch. Never, never more.
- [60:20]
Scarlet Baker
What happens when you reach the end of the Alphabet? Is that the end of the Mirage? I hope you get to Z.
- [60:26]
Sylvain Berneron
If one letter is 10 years, that means we have 260 years of production of Mirage. So I think if, if we leave on until there, we will let the, the guys who make those decisions. The company. Yes, exactly.
- [60:43]
Scarlet Baker
I'm talking about the next 10 years as well. I've got it down that you've also said that you want to have nine calibers. Is that nine calibers?
- [60:50]
Sylvain Berneron
By 2035 it will actually be more because I, I so, so do you.
- [60:57]
Scarlet Baker
Like to think it hard?
- [60:58]
Sylvain Berneron
Yes. And basically when I did the, the first Mirage, people also ask me, yes, Ivan, why do you make the spring bars in gold? This is a waste of time, waste of money. You are just increasing the risk. And my answer was, I'm just trying to do My best see it as an offering to God. This is what I used to say to people. So when you do an offering to God, you don't question budget, you just do your best and you offer it to the world. Then the reaction, you can't decide. I have no impact on how people will perceive the work. All I can do is to try my absolute best, deliver it with humility, and the rest is out of my hands. And this is very hard to accept, especially in a business endeavor, because in a business, you tend to want to be in control all the time and you want to secure your sales and you want to secure your production. But, and this is why it's scary, because the suppliers, when they see somebody like me walking in the shop and say, oh, this is the offering to God guy, they think, oh, it's not with him, that I will pay the salaries of my guys. So get out, you know, and go do your offering to God elsewhere. This is the way they think. And I understand, but in my position, this is the only way to do it. And I've done that because it was effectively the only way for me to reassure myself that this, if it wouldn't work, I would not have any regrets. You know what I mean? Like, when you've tried your hardest, if you fail, it's fine. And you will never regret because you will remember I gave it all. It remembers me. My racing amateur career, when you get smoked in a race and you know you've tried everything during the race, you. You're not mad, you're not even sad because you know you've tried and you fought bravely and you left everything on, on the, on the right track. So there is no regrets to have. So that was the mentality, like a bit of a samurai style. You go, you leave it all on the playing field. Yeah, yeah. And if it doesn't work, it's okay. Yeah. Because you know, you've tried. And I keep the same mentality for the workshop, for the new collections. Like now it's year three, we come with a round collection. We've entered into complications. So to give you an idea, this annual calendar that we are working on, I have to be careful, but I hope to poke the bear at Patek at Vacheron a little bit with this because in my opinion, these are the sort of Innova. We've basically worked on the package of an annual calendar to an extent of optimization that has never been done before. In terms of legibility, in terms of sickness. I can give you the recipe quickly. We are talking 38 millimeter platinum case with officer case back that you can open at the push of a button on the crown. We are talking using scenario that was one of my demand when I worked with the construction team. I said, do not give me one of these pain in the ass complicated watches where I need to sit down on the couch for 30 minutes in order to set it. I want to be able to set this watch in less time than it takes to wind it. You should see the eyes of the people when you say that. They look at you like, yeah, well, you know, like I'm not Santa Claus. Yeah, so. But nonetheless, if you make the right choices and you, and you make brave choices, it is actually possible.
- [64:40]
Scarlet Baker
So did you say a case back that opens with the push of the crown?
- [64:44]
Sylvain Berneron
Yes, officer case back precisely. Which is demanding in terms of thickness because you add another thickness. So it will be platinum case. Inside will be the typical full 18 karat gold movement. Base plate, bridges, wheels, when we can for that movement. That movement is almost 500 components. So we are talking a level of complexity which is very demanding. It will come with two patented innovations that we are working the legal fight for. So I can't say too much on that front, but the size, so 38 millimeter overall thickness, 10 millimeter officer case back and that crown and that piece, you take it, you wind it, you pull the crown, two positions like a normal watch. Last position, you set the time, hour, minute, seconds. First position, you will set the date. And then on the case we will have two pushers that are flush with the case where you can correct the day and the, and the months. And you don't need the little pin or the little, you know, ball pen to do this. And the buttons are in front of the windows that they correct. So there is, it's basically stupid proof. And you can live with it. Because this is also something I'd like to do. I'm interested into providing hierologies that can be lived with. For example, the Mirage and Alum can maybe confirm or not is a watch that is fantastic to live with. Like me, you don't feel it. You feel the weight of the gold on your wrist, but it sits so low on the wrist. And the bracelet is very, the strap is very soft, the lugs fall nicely. It's a dream to live with. It's not one of these watches that imposes on you its own set of rules. I give you horror stories. One of my friends smacked one of these perpetual calendars from a brand named Schaffhausen That I can't name. And this is not cool when you spend a lot of money on watches that are dictating on you the way to do it. Which is why this cantier Manuel, we will basically have very innovative dial layout that I do not want to break yet. So we will basically have hour, minute, seconds and day date months. It will jump the short months from 30 to 31st. The only thing you will not have is the leap year. So it won't be a perpetual calendar, it will be a complete or annual calendar. And that is also on purpose because when you jump into perpetual movements, this is when comes the complication of, oh, sorry, you can't adjust the movement from, you know, around midnight, otherwise you will explode everything. And being a collector myself, I do not know anybody who keeps his watch four years straight working. So that it needs the usage of the leap year indicator.
- [67:59]
Scarlet Baker
If any, any listeners do, of the real time show, please do let us know.
- [68:04]
Sylvain Berneron
If somebody does, I'd be happy to know and I hope when, and one last thing, because I'm sure we can find somebody crazy enough to keep his watch running for four years straight in order to exploit the use of a leap year indicator. If you do so, I want a video of you waking up at midnight, please, when the leap year jumps.
- [68:29]
Scarlet Baker
Sylvain, you mentioned people that were sort of rolling their eyes at you with the proposals you put forward to them and the early people that said to you at the start, this is professional suicide. How have your conversations evolved with these particular people? When we look at where you are now, what you've achieved since September 2022, the accolade that you've received, the fact that your watches have sold out. How have you spoken to these people and sort of said, see, I was right.
- [69:00]
Sylvain Berneron
No, it's actually, and I think it's the human nature, I guess. You have two types. It's basically go big or go home, so to speak. So in the go home, some of these guys, I won't give names, asked me three years ago to pay 100% upfront to produce my parts. Gave me lead times of almost a year to get my components. So I was basically founding their own business. And now that they see that it works, they go like, oh, shoot, this guy. They delivered me late because they never, they thought I would go bankrupt even before I could assemble the first watch. But we survived, we delivered, and I came back to knock on the door to reorder some more. I'm thinking like, wait, what the. How is it possible that these guys Want more of this. And. And two of these suppliers tried to basically twist my arm by raising their prices like crazy. And which I declined. So we effectively changed suppliers because it's not because that the business is successful, that you need to change the terms of the business so you effectively have some suppliers. And I'm sure Rob, who is in the business of being small in this, knows what I talk about. Some suppliers basically adjust their price depending on, on their understanding of your success, which is usually far from what the reality is. So these guys, they go, oh, you want a GPSG so you must be rich. So the price is 150%. That's pretty much the thinking. And I was like, look, I'm not having it. So either you go back down and we can discuss or you want to play like this and good luck because I will never work with you again. And it's not because I can't pay, because I could pay. It's because there is no way that my clients have to suffer from your laziness of wanting to grab a low hanging fruit like this, you know, no way. So I had to change two suppliers. And the others, which are the vast majority, thank God, are basically laughing that it worked. It still can't believe. And for the record, my dial supplier, which is a great friend of mine, kept his, what he called his Berneronte method. For him, he's the only exception because he's somebody I know for a long, long time. We used to be friends even outside of the business. And when I did my first Mirage dice, he was calling me every month telling me, you know, Silva. I thought about this. Maybe he was the one telling me, it's professional. You have a good job at Breitling. Think about it, you know, think about. He was so. And I was like, dude, you're not helping me here. Like, like, can you, can you please, you know, give me some strength instead of nurturing? He was like, yeah, you know, but I'm worried, I'm afraid you will regret it, blah, blah. And he was from a genuine place of care, right? He was not trying to demotivate me. He was truly worried. And he's the guy who made the dials that Alan owns. And these gold dies. It's the most complicated dial he's done before. He had to create a separate production stream to handle the gold dies. He had a list of person, of persons allowed in his company to manipulate these dies because they were gold and not brass. Which means you cannot manipulate them the same way the dials that Alan has Massive gold dial. You take your thumb, you touch it, you throw the dial away because the grease of your skin transfers onto the dial and it's a massive gold dial. So you trash it. And it's a very expensive dial.
- [72:56]
Alain Ben Joseph
I wanted to ask you, now that you've been ramping up team physical space, talking about suppliers, that raises the question, what is the strategy bringing the different metiers in house? What's your vision on that?
- [73:15]
Sylvain Berneron
Yeah, very cool question. I'll get back to it. I wanted to finish on the dial supplying thing. So that's friend, this good friend or dial supplier. Stick to his. So two years ago, basically was like Sylvain, I will make your dials, I will give them to you and you will pay me only when you will have sold the watches, because I don't think you will sell them. So it's fine. You bring me the dials back, I will melt them and then therefore you don't have to sort of take the money out. I kid you not, this is how it worked. So I left his factory with massive 18 karat gold dials and he refused to take my money. He was the only one. And up to this day, I still make my dials with him. And he was like. And he's still like, you pay me when you have sold your watches. Because he's still so worried. So. But it's the exception. So that was just to complete that story. To go to Alan, Alan's question about basically the in house phenomenon. Again, it's like, it's like the choice of the workshop. You have two camps in this topic. You have the camps, let's say the Rolex camp, where you want to internalize everything. And you have the other camp of Etablisage, which is work with others. I am definitely hundred, if not a thousand percent in the second camp. Why? Because I worked in big companies who tried to play the in house game. I worked in the industry for a long, long time and I know how the sausage is made. If you meet somebody who tells you that he makes his watch entirely in house, that guy is playing stupid on you. He's just trying to give you the marketing bullshit. Because this is absolutely not possible. We could spend three hours on that topic alone. But I will give you two examples. You go to a company named Crellier, for example, who makes jewels for the watch industry. They are in the Valley de Joux. The building is the size of a football stadium, I kid you not. And their annual production is probably less than a cubic meter of jewels, far less it's probably a quarter of a cubic meter. You go in these buildings and you see the number of people, the variety of machines, equipments, the number of hours, the processes, the tolerances to make these jewels, and you realize that even Rolex cannot afford that. Actually they could, but you don't want to venture into that because these guys have been on it for two generations. Because this is also something that should be mentioned in the watch industry. It's one of the industry steams that are heavily, that imply a lot of manual labor. So even if you're a rich kid, you're a trust fund baby, and you show up with, you know, hundred millions, you cannot compete with these guys because they know the settings on the machines, they know the processes, they know what works and what doesn't. And by the time you try to catch up with these guys, you will have burned 10 times the money they would have otherwise asked you to get you the right components. Same goes, for example, for the joules, very hard. The springs the same. When I go to Schwabfelle in Biel, for example, in Bien, close to Omega, and I talk to Andreas, the CEO, I can tell him I want my springs. And please, Andreas, can you increase the thickness of my springs from 0,117 to 0,178 because I'd like them to be slightly stiffer to increase my amplitude. How many machines and years and money do you need to spend to be able to do that yourself? It's not possible. But on the other hand, I am very happy to go to Crolier, to go to Schwabfeller, to go to Decojoux, to go to all these amazing suppliers. I know the parents, I know the children in the company, I know the names of the people. I can have them on the phone. I can, you know, for example, on Alan's dial, I can call Osse Anne, the girl who, the woman who makes the print on the dial, and say, oh, can you change the setting? And like, I'd like it to be slightly sharper, et cetera, I can talk to these people. And overall, it's a mindset. The mindset of trying to do everything alone won't get you very far. I do believe that if you want to make something truly amazing, the only way to do it is to gather. It's like a football team. You have to gather the best players in each field. And I take a greater pride of putting in the market watches that have been assembled by the best people in the entire carton. I guarantee you, you look at our Products. This is the best of the qualities that the Canton of Neuchatel has to offer. That I can guarantee. So to answer your question, Alan, I do not have the intention to produce my cases, to produce my dials, to do all this, because this is simply not my job. And I would consider it almost disrespectful to go to my suppliers and say, you know what? I think I bought the same machine as yours course, which I noted the name of when I visited you last time in order to make the dials myself. You can't live like this, you know, like. Like. First, everybody hates you. And second, you will most likely not succeed. And third, you lose friends on top of that. So. So I'm absolutely not interested. I'm very happy to say that Bernard Sr. Owns the ip, so the intellectual property, we own our technical plans, we make the entirety of our constructions or plans. I go to suppliers with my plans. And I can guarantee you that Fabien is extremely demanding on that. We check every little detail. The quality control is very high, very hard. We do one at the supplier, one in house and a third one with the second person to have a double control. And we assemble then all our components in house and we deliver to our collectors and we do the after sales as well. But the production in the middle, the pure manufacturing is externalized simply because I'm not ashamed to say that the people I work with are better and will forever be better at it than I will ever be. So I would be stupid not to work with them.
- [80:12]
Rob Nutts
All of this talk about quality actually has me salivating like it's a. I'm having a physical response to hearing about you talk about the QC checks and the gold spring bars and every single component that goes into making the Mirage what it is. Honestly, this comment section on the chat is. Is really getting me down today. Scarlett seems disgusted by the fact that I am appetized by the watches.
- [80:36]
Sylvain Berneron
Sorry.
- [80:36]
Rob Nutts
Sorry, Scarlett. I wanted to say for anybody that hasn't had the chance to salivate over one of your watches in person, I'm expecting another comment from her anytime now. Where can we see you? Where can we get the Mirage in our hands in the near future?
- [80:55]
Sylvain Berneron
Can I give your personal address, Alan?
- [80:59]
Alain Ben Joseph
You. You can I. Everyone who wants to try on my personal Mirage is invited. Cuz we say it all the time, we're here to share passion and knowledge. So yes, that offer is valid.
- [81:14]
Sylvain Berneron
No, but more seriously, and I should say, I've been again very lucky. You can't imagine how many press requests and stuff we get. And for example, Odinki the other week wanted to take a Mirage to shoot for the next issue of the magazine. And they call me, oh, can you give us a piece? I'm like, no, it's taken, it's already there, blah, blah. And I have a collector that I quickly message and say, oh, I know Jeff, you're close by, or Kirill, you're close by, can you help? And they go, yeah, sure. And they pack their watch, send it to Odinki for a week. I'm like, this is amazing. But to answer the initial question, if you want to see one, in reality, we do not retail our products. We allocate directly to collectors. So if you want to see a Mirage before you want to acquire Watch, which I fully understand, there are three ways to do it. Either you know one of our clients and you can try one on either you meet us during the watch phase. That can be Watches and Wonders first week of April in Geneva or Geneva watch days first week, week of September, every year in Geneva. And the third option is to visit us in the Chatel. We'll gladly invite you for lunch, for dinner, and you will have the pleasure to try on the four different references that we currently have at disposal. And we had people visiting us in Nel from very far parts of the world, which are whether it is Saudi Arabia, Lithuania, we had had Japan, we had China, we had the States, Turkey. It was amazing to, to. To see that. And then so some, some people go skiing in the Alps on the way back, they visit us or we are also quite close to the airports hubs in Geneva and Zurich. So if your business demands to to go by, we are happy to. To meet. Of course.
- [83:16]
Rob Nutts
Not a bad life, is it? Skiing and then dinner with Sylvan Bernard in the Chatel could be worse. But for the rest of us, watches and Wonders is probably the best opportunity. If you do want to see Sylvain there, then get in touch. You can either contact him or you can contact any of us and we will find out where he's going to be, which suite he's hiding in, or which restaurant he's been dragged off to via our private channel. So if you have any questions for Sylvan or for any of us personally, then please get in touch via our Instagram handle herealtime show. You can contact Alon, David or I via our email addresses. Just add our names to therealtime show. If you want to message Scarlett directly, her Instagram handle is Carlintheshire. That's S C A R L I N T H E S H I R E and if you would like to use our contact form, you can contact us via the revamped website@www.therealtime.show. we'll be back soon with more top quality watch content with watchmaking's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.
- [84:14]
Alain Ben Joseph
Savate.