Time To Watches: Pragma

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Real Time Show – Episode: Time To Watches: Pragma

Release Date: June 26, 2025

Hosts: Rob Knudds & Alon Ben Joseph
Guest: Christopher from Pragma Watches

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1. Introduction

In this episode of The Real Time Show, hosts Rob Knudds and Alon Ben Joseph engage in an insightful conversation with Christopher from Pragma Watches. Returning for a second appearance, Christopher delves deeper into Pragma's debut release, showcasing the brand's innovation in watchmaking.

2. Pragma Watches Overview

Christopher introduces Pragma Watches as a young brand, established just a year prior. Co-founded with his partner, Kai Husan Liu, Christopher emphasizes the brand's core values:

• Transparency and Trustworthiness: Pragma is committed to openness in their processes.
• 100% Swiss Movement: Ensuring high-quality timekeeping standards.
• Sustainability: Utilizing recycled materials, such as their "solar steel"—recycled steel processed using solar furnaces—and 100% recycled titanium.

Quote:
[01:00] Christopher: "We want to not only do watches, but only put all the value we share into it. The important values we want to put in are trustability and transparency in our process."

3. Case Design and Construction

Rob praises Pragma's case construction, highlighting the intricate blend of brushed and polished surfaces achieved through a multi-component approach. This meticulous craftsmanship results in a seamless transition between different finishes, setting Pragma apart in the watchmaking industry.

Quote:
[02:33] Rob Knudds: "This multi-component construction is a joy to see. It really is the perfect execution of a very complex concept."

Christopher explains that the case comprises five main parts: the carrier, bezel, back, and two intermediary bezel pieces. This design allows for the distinctive interplay of polished and satin finishes, creating a unique aesthetic.

Quote:
[02:53] Christopher: "We have five big parts: the carrier, bezel, back, and two intermediary bezel pieces. This allows us to have this difference between polish circle and satin, giving this unique look and design."

4. Dial Layout and Features

Pragma's dial design prioritizes clear time visibility while incorporating playful elements for secondary information. Instead of traditional hands, the watch features a disk second and disk date display. The date window rotates monthly, adding an interactive element to the watch face.

Quote:
[03:23] Christopher: "We put all this secondary information, like the second and the date, in a more hidden way inside the dial. This gives us a playful and fun way to read the second."

Rob expresses admiration for the unique dial, noting its distinctiveness and aesthetic appeal.

Quote:
[04:12] Rob Knudds: "I'm just speechless. It looks like nothing else."

5. Future Plans and Collection Expansion

Looking ahead, Christopher outlines Pragma's vision to expand their collection by experimenting with material combinations and additional functionalities like power reserve and GMT complications. The multi-component design serves as a versatile platform for future models, allowing for endless creativity without compromising quality.

Quote:
[05:03] Christopher: "Mixing material is the first step, to play with two tones or color. The indication of the date or the second is also unlimited because we can imagine having power reserve or GMT."

6. Movement Details

Christopher, with a background in high watchmaking from prestigious brands like Frédérick Pécaut and Laurent Ferrier, ensures that Pragma's movements reflect high craftsmanship. The watches feature edge-to-edge sapphire display backs, black polished screws, and a combination of polished and satin finishes on various components. The movement showcases traditional high watchmaking techniques blended with Pragma's unique design language.

Quote:
[08:24] Christopher: "I use the high watchmaking codes—anglage, sun brush, Cote de Janeve black polish on some components—and aim for consistency in the product's language."

7. Time To Watches Event Participation

Christopher shares his positive experience attending the Time To Watches event, appreciating the opportunity to engage directly with enthusiasts, retailers, and the press. This platform has been instrumental in increasing brand awareness and fostering community support.

Quote:
[07:09] Christopher: "Having people understand what we're doing is really, really cool. We're enjoying meeting everyone, even if it means sleepless nights."

8. Pricing and Sales Strategy

Pragma's debut models are priced competitively, with the gold variant set at €4,800. Christopher highlights the strong demand, noting that initial collectors are opting for the gold version over the steel model. Additionally, the gold watches come with a 1% equity stake in the company, fostering a sense of community and investment among early adopters.

Quote:
[11:11] Christopher: "The gold edition comes with 1% equity of the company, which has been a great way to build brand support and community."

9. Host Reactions and Final Thoughts

Rob and Alon commend Pragma for their innovative design and solid execution. Rob admires the multi-component case construction, emphasizing its seamless integration and robust design. Alon expresses a preference for the gold variant, appreciating the blend of satin and polished finishes and the added value of equity shares.

Notable Quotes:
[17:18] Alan Ben Joseph: "The gold one is stunning... If you can buy the gold one, you get a percentage of the company, which skews me towards opting for it."

Rob reflects on the challenge of maintaining design integrity in multi-component cases and praises Pragma for achieving a cohesive and strong design.

Quote:
[16:02] Rob Knudds: "How do you make it feel deliberate, strong, and structured? Pragma does that exceptionally well."

10. Future Prospects

The hosts express excitement for Pragma's future releases, anticipating continued innovation and consistency in their design philosophy. Alon gives a special shout-out to Kai Husan Liu, Pragma's industrial designer, highlighting his depth in design philosophy and contributions to the brand's success.

Quote:
[19:57] Alan Ben Joseph: "Kai Husan Liu is a hidden gem. His design philosophy is profound, and he's instrumental to Pragma's success."

Rob assures listeners that Pragma will return for future discussions, ensuring continued exploration of their evolving watch collections.

Quote:
[20:20] Rob Knudds: "We'll make sure to get the guys back on for their next release to pour over their genius once again."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Real Time Show offers an in-depth look into Pragma Watches, highlighting their commitment to quality, sustainability, and innovative design. Through Christopher's insights and the hosts' enthusiastic discussions, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of what sets Pragma apart in the competitive watchmaking landscape. As Pragma continues to develop and expand their collection, their dedication to craftsmanship and community engagement positions them as a promising new player in the industry.

Transcript

[Rob Knudds]

Foreign watch fans and welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Knudds, the belated but very friendly jeweler from Amsterdam, Alan Ben Joseph. And today we're joined by Christopher from Pragma Watches, who's recently featured on the show for a full length episode. So welcome back again so soon. It's a pleasure to see you.

[Christopher]

Thank you very much.

[Rob Knudds]

I. I am sitting here now in our Glassy glue outside Villa Terrasanne for the Time to Watchers event. With two examples of Pragma's debut release in front of me. One in full gold and this one is full steel.

[Christopher]

Absolutely, yes.

[Rob Knudds]

It is a stunning case construction with an incredible attention paid to the detail of the finishes. The transitions between the brushed and the polished surfaces are unlike basically anything you've ever seen before. Thanks to the multi component construction of the case. And don't even get me started on the movement, but let's just have a quick recap of what we're talking about and why Chrome. Chris, could you give us a rundown of the brand for anyone that hasn't encountered Pragma before?

[Christopher]

Yes, of course, with pleasure. So we are young brand, just one year old. And so with my partner Kai, we create Pragma. So he's a designer, I'm the watchmaker. And so when we started the brand we want to not only do watches, but only put all the value we share into it. So the important value we want to put it, it's a first, it's fully trustability and transparency in our process to really be open in what we're doing. The second, it's really the 100% Swiss Main. It's really important for us. And the last one, when we can achieve the same quality, we try to use also sustainable material. So here in this first collection we use recycled steel. So we call it the solar steel because it's refurbished steel using the solar.

[Rob Knudds]

A solar furnace.

[Christopher]

We refurbish in a furnace using the solar sunray. And the titanium also is 100% recycled. So that was the start of it and after yes, of course everything is about the design and I really want to create this amazing case so everything look like it is in the same level. But the type of finishing between the polish and the brush really reveal all the detail on the watch.

[Rob Knudds]

For me personally, as someone that spends a lot of their time designing cases and thinking about different ways that we can improve the quality of the product, at the end of the day, this multi component construction is a joy to See, it really is the perfect execution of a very complex concept. How many pieces go into building this case?

[Christopher]

So five big parts or the middle part. So the carrier we say in French and the bezel and the back. So in between we have two pieces we call the intermediary bezel. That allowed us to have this difference between polish circle and satin, giving this unique look and design.

[Rob Knudds]

Talk to us about the dial layout because for a lot of people this will be something they've never seen before.

[Christopher]

Yeah, it's also the same. We like hands, dies and classic shape of case. But what we want to do is we put all this secondary information, let's say the second and the date in a more hidden way inside the dial. We need to push forward the hour NTB to have this really good visibility of the time and also to have this, let's say playful and funny way to read the second. So instead of using hands, we use the disk second and a disk date. So also the date. So basically the window of the date is turning around in one month into the dial. So give us this really a fun way to showcase the date.

[Rob Knudds]

I'm just speechless. I'm looking at it and it just, it looks like nothing else. I mean I've got the black dial version with the rose gold case. What rose gold? Is it five?

[Christopher]

So yeah, it's rose gold five 5N. Yes. And so for the metal precious, we use a slightly different finishing on the dial. So we're using a sun brush. So to. To differentiate a bit of the, of the. The current collection in steel or we have more matte finishing on the dial. So even in the future we trying to do also platinum or white gold. So we can also different see the difference also only on looking the dial what kind of material we use and.

[Rob Knudds]

What'S the future going to be like in the. Let's say the very medium term, are we going to see more models coming in or are we going to see variations on this? Because of course with the case construction as it is, you don't just need to mix finishes, you can mix materials.

[Christopher]

So yeah, mixing material is will be the first step to I think play with two tones or also color. But the indication of the date or the second is also unlimited because we can imagine having power reserve or gmt. So it's really a platform to start building a full collection using this principle. And yeah, like I said before, let's say that the creativity is the funnest part of the job and we really enjoy doing that. So it's not about the ide, it's how we can make it step by step to use all the ID we want.

[Rob Knudds]

What about the dials? I mean, we've seen a bit of a trend going on with hard stone dials recently. Any chance you'll experiment with materials a little less standard?

[Christopher]

We didn't think about that for the moment. But everything once again is possible ML different kind of. Of termination or finishing. And also when I was the stone.

[Rob Knudds]

So how long have you been planning pragma? How many years has it been in the making?

[Christopher]

So pragma started in my head. It was the beginning of COVID and so when I was thinking, okay, I want to redo a brand because it was long time, I want to do that again. And so I say I really need to build a team surrounding me. So I'm not a designer. So first was to finding a designer and. And so when I met Kai, it was perfect because he was looking for a watchmaker. So we speak about what kind of watch he's looking to do and maybe so we will have a great feeling. So take time to engage to create all the value that we want to put in the watch. And I think the real process start, I think in end of 22, really go step by step into it, find new partners and designing the watch. Yes.

[Alan Ben Joseph]

How has it been for you to be at time to watches?

[Christopher]

Really, really, really good. Because you, let's say you work like in your garage for so many times of course at the office or workshop. But now we, we have people, we explain what we do, we see the interest, the big eyes opening when they understand a bit of what we're doing. So it's really, really cool to engage with people and also with retailers. So we're just enjoying here we sleep not that much, but I think we are all in the same situation. So yeah, it's really great.

[Alan Ben Joseph]

Is your main goal here to meet distributors, retailers, press and or consumers or all of the above?

[Christopher]

Yeah, for no first year all are good for us. Press is good to put a bit of brand awareness for us. Retailer also is good direct consumer where everybody is most welcome to come and discover the brand.

[Rob Knudds]

So yeah, talk to me about the movement because you're the watchmaker.

[Christopher]

Yes, of course.

[Rob Knudds]

Gorgeous movement. Edge to edge. Sapphire display back on the case back. Are these black polished screws that we see in here?

[Christopher]

Yes. So I come from high watchmaking working for Francois Pelt or Laurent Ferrier. I wouldn't want to put into the watch this level of finishing. So using the high washmaking code anglage, the finishing, the sun brush, also Cote de Janeve black polish on some components. Also for the rotor using titanium and also platinum for the heavy segment. So I want to use that, let's say classic interpretation of the high watchmaking, but still putting the design and the touch we want. So we really want that the back and the front have the same language and everything has to be consistent in the product. From the hands that's following the shape of the index or the buckle that's following the finishing of the case. So that's really what we want to put into the product. For the dial also using gold index, it's also the high watchmaking standard. So I would like to play with this kind of tradition.

[Rob Knudds]

May I ask, the applied indices on the dial, are they slightly convex?

[Christopher]

They are flat and polished on the top and slightly brush on the side and full with super Luminova at the base. So it's highlight on the night with this, the light blue. But of course here we are in the sun igloo. So maybe not possible to see that. But yeah, you can go under the table.

[Rob Knudds]

I'm currently under the table and I can confirm you can see these light blue indices under my UV torch. That's incredible. I didn't see that. I'm going to stay under the table. Alan. Carry on.

[Alan Ben Joseph]

So Rob, I love titanium titanium watches. Architectural design, Modern contemporary. Tonne Antono tonsu ton. I love gold watches but usually for these kind of type of watches I go for the ortoulesque vibe. But Rob, the titanium is spectacular. Yeah, the gold is something else. Yeah, it works between polished and matt. You accent the fact that the case is built up from separate parts is brilliant. Congratulations. So damn you. Because now I need to save more money.

[Rob Knudds]

Yeah. What's the price for these ones, Chris?

[Christopher]

So for the gold it's 48.8. So we've just present that so the the 1st of April and yeah, I'm happy because the two of our first collector called me and say we want to cancel the ordnance steel and take the gold one. So I was okay with that, of course. So I personally also was was thinking to buy myself a steel one but perhaps I will also change my mind and take the gold. But no, no, I really like the path coming. You know, with all this year working with high watchmaking gold has this magical touch. So that's why I choose the the wedding ring in rose gold. So I was also thinking for the future watch I will have. So it's waiting here on my wrist too. Nice.

[Alan Ben Joseph]

You are a shareholder already and I believe that if you buy a gold watch, you get shares.

[Christopher]

Yes. Over the first edition, the co founder edition. So it's of the same case but the dial is also in gold finishing. So this one, when you acquire IT come with 1% of equity of the company and that was a big help for us to founding the money to build the brand. So we still have five left on this product and it was really great to meet people that believe in our project and want to join the community and the family. So we are really grateful for that.

[Rob Knudds]

I've got a couple of requests for material combinations going forward if you don't mind. So I'd like to see titanium and yellow gold blasted. Titanium would be cool in some capacity. I know you've got brushing all over the place on these ones which may not work with those beautiful sharp edges, but what about tantalum and white gold? Maybe, Is that on the cards?

[Christopher]

Oh, wow. Yeah, basically I went to the partner who built the case, Booty linen and Kata and so I saw some piece in tantalum and at the time also doing the Chrono Bleu. So it's definitely, definitely on, on, on, on the, on the map. So yeah.

[Rob Knudds]

Okay, good. Well, we're gonna leave it there with that potential scoop from Chris. Thank you very much for giving us once again, really appreciate you stopping by and I'm looking forward to round three already. Have a good fair.

[Christopher]

Thank you.

[Alan Ben Joseph]

Thank you.

[Christopher]

Thank you guys.

[Rob Knudds]

Every so often a brand comes along and it grabs your attention in a way you wish every new release would. And that way is that it feels familiar as well as being fresh. It feels like you know it already. It feels like it's been around for a while. I see pragma and I see a watch that I think I've wanted that watch for years, except it hasn't existed for years. And maybe that's something to be said for taking your time as Christopher did in bringing this project to life. Like really thinking out what the market hasn't seen so much of and then delivering that in this multi component, ultra high end, well finished case, serene dial layout and then just pushing all your chips into the middle and having a go. What do you think of it, Alan?

[Alan Ben Joseph]

So we had him on the show before we've ever seen a watch. And I've said this often, I hoped it wasn't good, but by God, it's very difficult to shut me up or keep me quiet. But I think you saw me sitting there in our glass. IGLOO and I was quiet and distracted, and I was distracted both by the steel version of my wrist, and I was actually oogling you because you were rocking the gold one. And what a stunning watch. And not only talking about aesthetics, then when you study the case and look at technicality, how it's made and designed and well made, and then turning it around, looking at the caliber. I'm in love. And I want to give a shout out to our dear friend Jeremy Oster, my fellow colleague retailer, who's actually had a spontaneous impromptu in our glass iglo. And we recorded an segment episode. He picked up Pragma. So I salute him and I congratulate him and both Chris as well.

[Rob Knudds]

Yeah, it's a special watch. Special series of watches, should I say. I can't really decide which one I like the most. I think the gold one really does speak to me, but I regrettably won't be able to stretch to buy him one of those. My favorite dial is definitely the purple dial, the fluorite purple dial. And I just can't get over how the case goes together. I know it's. In some ways this is a thing, like, it's kind of basic. It's, like, obvious. Like, you can break a case into as many parts as you want and finish them however you feel they should be finished. But how do you do it without it looking too contrived or too busy or too. Heath Robinson? Like, how do you make it feel deliberate to feel strong and still, like, structured? Because I think that's something that people are concerned with. When a case is multi, multi, multi component, then you think, well, there's more bits that can drop off. And that's. Is that really. Is that really good design, or are you just. Are you cheating somehow? And these are just thoughts that go through my mind whenever I've designed cases that require you to have, like, a second sort of sheath component that's attached by a screw that is then hidden by the case back and blah, blah, blah. You always have to chase your tail around the design, I find, to make it feel like one thing, despite being many things. And I think the primer does that really well. I think that what I'm looking at here, it does feel like one thing, even though the lines and the joins are extremely obvious. And that's part of its character and part of its design. It's just not as easy to do as you might think. When you try breaking up a case, it can sometimes just look like bits held together by, like, maybe the bezel and not very, not very robustly held together. This is the opposite. This is, this is extremely well done. Do you have a favorite model in the lineup?

[Alan Ben Joseph]

I do love gold watches and in this, I wouldn't call it tool esque. It's definitely not toolesque. It's very contemporary. It's very much of a cutting edge design vibe. I would automatically opt for the steel one. Titanium. I'm not confused. But what I loved about the gold one, not only that they played with the satin and polished effects and you see how the case is built up because it works very well and although it could seem like a block of gold on your wrist, it's very elegant. The big upside is if you are able to buy the gold one and it's still available, you get a percentage of the company. So that obviously skews me to opt for a gold one. Would I have the spare funds to pick up a pragma watch right now?

[Rob Knudds]

I can't wait to see the second model. Honestly, this is, this is the thing that gets me. When you see a brand like this, when they come, when they come out with something like really new, it's like have you got a plan? And I'm sure they have got a plan, but I mean I really want to know what the plan is. It's like when Sebastian debuted Albazon and I was like, okay, this is something but where are you going to go from here? And then he showed me and shut me up. So I'm hoping Christopher shuts me up as well because I'd like to see how you follow a model like this to create a very consistent brand environment that adheres to the design principles that were deployed on the initial debut model without retreading your steps. Thoughts?

[Alan Ben Joseph]

Not so much thoughts. I am like you very much interested in chapter two. I am not worried at all. That is going to be crazy like Sebastian with Alvazone that you're referring to. These guys have vision and they think light years ahead. I do want to give a shout out to Christopher's well co founder and industrial designer Kai Husan Liu. I'm following him on LinkedIn or we're connected on LinkedIn and I actually follow his posts. It's very interesting. He goes into depth about the philosophy of the design of crime. These guys go deep. I mean the pedigree that's there. I mean you've heard Christopher's background and his CV and where he has worked. Kai is very good. I think he's a hidden gem. His name is spelled K A I New word. H S U A N New word L I u Go find him on LinkedIn. You'll be surprised.

[Rob Knudds]

And we'll make sure to get the guys back on for their next release so we can pour over their genius once again. Stay tuned for that. We'll see you next time.

[Alan Ben Joseph]

Sam.