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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
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Watch fans and welcome back to a very special, very timely once every four years edition of the Real Time show, the World Cup Final special. With me, your friendly neighbourhood watchmaker, Rob Nutts and our friendly neighborhood jeweller, Alain Ben Joseph, calling in from a very busy ace jewellers in Amsterdam. Alon, how has your morning been?
- [00:25]
A
I'm so sorry, Rob. The poor guy. I had to postpone him three times. I don't know what's going on. Since the end of June, it's hustle and bustle. Both in London and Amsterdam this morning, people are popping up without appointments because nowadays we run by appointment only. So it seems the watch industry is not in full bloom, but it seems the Indies are really on the up. I'm very excited for this episode. We did the July 4th special edition for the American watchmakers. I got a lot of DMs for that. I don't know what about you, Rob, but people really liked it. So we're actually running with that idea and I'm very excited about this episode today.
- [01:04]
B
So before we dive into the format of this World cup themed edition of the show, let's just say one thing that's great news. That things are picking up, that people are popping in without appointments, that the interest in independent watchmaking, especially since you took such a big dive into that deep, deep pool yourself recently, is stronger than ever. That's wonderful news. So we should take take a moment to smile and maybe be optimistic about the future for watchmaking.
- [01:31]
A
We actually should. It's interesting, I hear it all around that there is an upswing and people thought that it was diminishing post Covid, but I don't think they are. The Indies are here to stay and I'm very happy about that.
- [01:47]
B
Good news. Good news. So I'm sure a few independent watchmakers will feature in our discussion today. So this is how it's going to work as we record on July 14, Bastille Day. Happy Bastille Day to all of our French listeners and Francophiles around the world. I'm personally hoping that Paul Secsas goes for the victory today in the Tour de France. We'll see if that manifested when it comes to pass. We're recording this before France plays Spain in tonight's semi final and before England play Argentina in tomorrow's last four Clash. Now, the way this is going to work is we are going to make our national selection for one brand per nation. We're going to discuss several brands from each of the four remaining countries in the World Cup. That's Spain, France, England and Argentina. We're going to pick a representative and then we're going to put them head to head in the first semi final, France against Spain. The second semi final, England against Argentina. And then we're going to discuss who will win our World cup of watchmaking in the final between whomever that should be. Now, the final will be played tonight. This is July 19th. This episode is airing so we don't know the winner of the World cup yet. We'll see how close our predictions get. We don't even know who's going be featuring in that final. So without further ado, let's turn our attention to the first of our two combatants in semi final one and discuss the potential representative of Spain. Now, Alon, do you have any, any Spanish brands on the top of your mind?
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A
I had to rack my brain, but the first that comes to mind is Raul Pages. The second is Atelier de Chronometrie. I think they're Spanish and the one that I think we need to feature a bit more is Pitta Barcelona. Those are the three that come to mind for me. Rob, did you come up with some Spanish watchmakers or brats?
- [03:45]
B
In addition to those three which were all on my mind, I managed to find two more. One I found myself and one I had to be pointed in the direction of. I discovered a brand I wasn't aware of but think looks very, very charming. And that is Raoul Tena. And then the other one which I knew of but didn't know was Spanish is Ophion or Opheon. O P H I O N. You see these watches all over Instagram. They're very, very recognizable, rather beautiful looking things, sort of classic style, similar dial kind of language to Zach Weiss's brand Aurora Aureus. So very current, very cool as well as being, I think potentially quite timeless. So we've got five brands from Spain to discuss for the representative role in this semi final. Where does your initial leaning fall?
- [04:46]
A
So thank you for that nugget of information. I actually had O fion on my to watch list which came on my to watch this thanks to the limited edition by the way. They put it on my radar many years ago. So shout out to Pietro and his team. I didn't know they were Spanish. So you see, you learn every day and that's why I love this podcast. I am really, really intrigued by Ate de Cornometry. It's a French name, very popular, patekish in their vibe, but they seem to seek excellence in, well, the name says it all chronometric values and finishing of the brand. So why don't we start there, if you don't mind. Rob, what do you know about them and have you met them?
- [05:36]
B
I've never met them. I don't know a huge amount about the history, but of course they did pop up on everyone's radar a couple of years back, I think, when they were nominated for a gphg. And I can't say enough off good things about the aesthetic that we have on display here. There's a little bit of Patek, there's a little bit of Langer. It's my kind of thing, you know. These beautiful, classic, chromatically restrained chronographs, I would say, with exceptional movement work and beautiful cases. Hefty price tags, you know, we're Talking in between 60 and 70,000 francs, I believe. So they don't come cheap, but they burst onto the scene with exceptional work from the get go. And I think of the five brands we've got lined up here, they would be my, my gut choice simply for that incredible start to their story. But we have another GPHG nominee in this lineup and that's Raul Parhes. And I think we need to spend some time talking about those watches.
- [06:38]
A
Totally agree. Amazing what he does. He caught my eye many years ago by the simplicity of his designs, but with a modern wink even do I dare to say nomos esque wink of having fun with time. Only stunning, timeless watches. And of course the winning of the Louis Vuitton prize put him on the global map, didn't it?
- [07:10]
B
Yeah. Again, he's not started his career with a bang because he's been around for quite some time really, but he's really hit the top of mind very hard very recently and he's featured obviously in discussions we've had before on the show because we do our annual rundown of the GPHG nominees thereof. I think that his movement finishing is absolutely divine. His sensitivity when it comes to color and layout is supreme. I remember not choosing his watch in the category in the GPHG rundown and feeling a bit guilty about that afterwards. Looking at his stuff again through this lens, I would say that he's. I'd say he's probably the most visible and memorable Spanish watchmaker for me, more so than Atelier Decrans and Mettri, possibly because of their very French sounding name and the fact that they don't so much have a face to the brand as they have like an idea and a concept that's very well executed, you know, even though I said my leaning would have gone to adc, so I don't butcher that pronunciation again. I feel maybe if I was Spanish and if I was looking for someone to go to battle for me on the field of play, I would want somebody whose face I could see, whose eyes I could look into, whose hands I could admire. And maybe now he's edging out this vote for me. But we've got more to discuss and I do want to talk about Peter
- [08:39]
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Barcelona before we do so what I wanted to ask you while listening and thinking about those two, I have a question for you. As a watchmaker, and I was looking at the beautiful calibers both of them make, I'm wondering, is there a trend with these wonderful Spanish watchmakers that they love hand wound calibers and calibers that seem to be inspired by epic pocket watch calibers?
- [09:08]
B
It's a good question. I would say that in the independent space, there's been a lot of focus on calibers with this architecture in the last five or 10 years, especially revisiting of an old style, but brought to life with more refined manufacturing techniques and excellent hand finishing. Given it, I think the prominence it deserves in the modern landscape. Is it something we could say is particularly Spanish in origin? I would say hard to say because there isn't a huge canon of Spanish watchmaking in history. When we look back in the annals of horology, we don't see many Spanish watchmakers popping up. I can't name a single significant contribution to the development of horological understanding made by anyone from the Iberian Peninsula. In fact, when we talk about the Iberian Peninsula today, the most prominent name that pops to mind is Jose from Isotope, because of his affable character and great watchers and ever present at events around the world. So no, it's not a particularly famous corner of the world. So to kind of draw any parallels for me is maybe a bit too soon. Like we don't have a large enough data set. If I were to venture a guess, I would say whenever any new nation emerges or the first germination of a culture sprouts in whatever part of the world, it's maybe not surprising to see people go back to the very beginnings, to go back to the basics, to say, well, this is our origin story, this is our genesis, this is where we come from, and this is our take on the starting point that was arrived at by many of the regions prior to ours. So there could be something like that in there. But I would wager, given the very small data set that we have, it's just simply personal preference and the format upon which PAHES and ADC maybe think, think that their ideas are best expressed. So I wouldn't read too much into it, but I'm glad to see it because, as you know, it's very much up my street.
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A
Pita, Barcelona, father and son.
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B
This is a big one for me, you know, because PETA's been around for absolutely ages, a lot longer than many people will probably be aware because it isn't a very prominent and globally recognized name. Although it was on my radar more than 15 years ago when I was a trainee watchmaker at the Bench. There was a lot of stuff that I liked coming out of that atelier at that time, partly motivated by my absolute obsession with Barcelona in those days. When I was younger, in my teens, I would visit Barcelona every year. I was mad about Dali. I wanted to move to Barcelona and live there and absolutely adore the Sagrada Familia and can't wait to go back and see it with the lights on now for the first time. As such, I found myself picking up influence from all kinds of designers in Barca's landscape, including Aetnea Eyewear. They were the glasses that I always wanted to wear when I was younger. Peter. Barcelona, I thought would be my watch, my niche choice because I had such an affinity with the city and the styles. Then what I would say, if I'm being hypercritical about Peter, is that I thought their designs were extremely of the time in around 2010, 11, 12, when I was really obsessed with them. And I think that that trend has maybe moved on a little bit now. And I would wonder whether if you put them alongside a pages piece in 2026, you would feel that they were of the same import. My gut feeling is maybe no. What's. What's your take?
- [12:45]
A
You've literally described the thoughts floating in my mind that I can't bring to a summary verbally. They have done very interesting stuff. Some of the watches give me a vibe of Itai Noi from Tel Aviv.
- [13:06]
B
You are kidding. You are absolutely kidding me. I had a locked and loaded. I was gonna say, do you remember Ittai Noi? Of course you would. Because as a Tel Aviv boy, that's exactly the era I'm talking about. That's it. Nailed it.
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A
And you've nailed it by saying they are stuck. And I would even say a late 90s, early 2000s vibe. That even could be a bit Germanic.
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B
Another thing that comes to mind, Early Freak, right? If you saw the Early Freak and the Sort of the standard of finishing the case shapes, you know, it's kind of almost Breguet futurism, strangely. And the time has kind of moved on.
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A
Yes. And this now creates a contradiction or a clash in my mind. I kind of not criticize micro brands and new brands that I call one model heroes. So they build everything on one case. And I understand why.
- [14:03]
B
For that I invented the term model Mono model brand.
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A
Very good. Mono model brand. So mmb. But reverse. Taking the other side of the horizon here, where PETA seems all over the place and there is no coherent collection. And ironically I'm looking for their website and on the Instagram it says Pita Es, which is Spain. But I think they forgot to re register or prolong the registration of their URL because the site is now a reserved spot by godaddy for sale. So, dear PETA team, I think you need to claim back your URL because I can't find petabarcelona.com I love what they do, but you're right, even their logo seems a bit outdated. Like late 90s, early 2000s price points. We have to say though, this is a lower bracket than ADC or Page, so it's a different bracket but cool. Let's discuss the other two.
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B
Rob, we should, but we should also point out if anyone's searching for Peter, you will find them on Instagram, as Alon mentioned, with a defunct link to the website. You'll find them at Peter Barcelona. And they are still active, apparently as an independent family run luxury brand. But the website's currently inactive and the brand operates exclusively through direct customer orders, select international retailers and the ahci. So they are still in existence and it's worth checking them out if you've not seen them before. You write about the font. It gives me sort of playful ikopod vibes actually there. You know, we're definitely seeing a lot from these eras that were described in the late 90s, early 2000s, even into the early 2010s when I think I probably stumbled across the brand. It might have been a little bit earlier actually. It might have been when I was in Barcelona in the early 2000s, but who knows? You know who we should ask? We should ask our friend Andy Batch because Andy is a Barcelona resident. In fact, so is Tony from Dug. So we should have a word with them and see if they are personally connected to the guys at Pizza because they'd be great to get on the show. So moving on. Did you already tell me which brand we're going to look at next or do I have to decide between the remaining two? All right, well, let's leave the second Raul on this list until the end and talk about Opheon. Opheon. I'm afraid I don't know how to pronounce it. I've seen it very, very frequently on my Instagram. I believe they're one of the more beloved micros, or maybe fair to call them small independents. There's quite a lot going on there that's worthwhile. They retail for under €5,000 in general and they have a frustrating website, I have to say, because it seems to be a bit labyrinthine in terms of ordering watches. I like them to be just lined up there for me, so I can click buy, but you have to do a couple more clicks than I'd prefer. But I have to say that it's very striking work. Quite a versatile watch, trending more towards a dressy style, but in a more everyday size. I think they have an identifiable design language. I think that they are obviously influenced by some past masters, but I think the execution and offering is very good for the price. What's your take on Ophion?
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A
Ophion gave me the same vibes as Sartori Bah, meaning extremely high value for money. The finishing is good, the looks are good and I feel they punch above their waist. That's the feeling I had. I actually, when I visited the new Pietro showroom in London, I actually handled those watches. Very, very cool. I want to learn more about them, so I don't have much to add.
- [17:45]
B
I think we can probably wrap that one up by saying it's a great value proposition and, yeah, like you say, punches well above its weight for the price. Is it distinct enough? Is it the going to choose to represent Spain in the semifinals? Time will tell. Just before we move on to Raul Tenner, who's the last of these five that we're considering for national selection, I had this thought about Peter that I just want to revisit because I thought it and therefore I think it's probably worth saying it out loud when it comes to Mediterranean watches. You've got Spain, you've got Italy, you know, some stuff going on in Greece, perhaps we could say. And. And for me, although they're not similar in aesthetics really at all, there's a certain Giuliano Mazzuoli vibe, he's from Italy. I get this from Peter and I feel like they're sort of, if you had one, you might like the other, you know, if you don't know either of those brands. Check them both out. If you like bigger watches with some really striking and memorable design quirks, then I think you'd like them both. Moving on to Raoul Tenner. What we have here is some incredible handwork, artisanal dial finishing and, you know, very beautiful painting and pearl setting in one of the most famous models, the Pearl Diver, but also incredible movements. Voutelainen and Katyn show us this wonderful double barrel calibre with a beautiful balance bridge and some lovely frosting on the plates, which is, yeah, something special, something worth talking about. And it recalls to me another brand that unfortunately no longer exists and didn't really have the success I felt it deserved. And that was Tullock. I don't know if you remember remember Tullock? But I loved, loved, loved their movements. Also vitilin and sourced, I believed. And yeah, I can't get enough of this aesthetic, but it doesn't seem to be as popular as I believe it should be. Alon thoughts?
- [19:40]
A
I am very bad with names and I forget a lot, but seeing the watch now, I've met him, Raoul Tennant, actually two years ago when he had a mock up, not even a 3D version. He, I think then lived in Dubai and he had this vision that he wanted to create 3D sculptured art piece for the wrist. So I'm very happy actually he well incorporated his name into an actual watchmaking house. Beautiful website, which is R A U L T e n a.com that actually works and good photography. And because he is or was based in Dubai, he did some beautiful timepieces like this Pearl Diver that we see on the website. His investor actually introduced me to him very early on and I'm happy to see that he's up and running. So, Rob, kudos to you for finding this one. Who thought we would find five Spanish watch brands.
- [20:54]
B
You're right about the Dubai connection. If you go on the website and you go to the Art to Watch tab on the menu at the top, you'll see it's a 3D realization of that famous museum in Dubai. I can't remember what it's a museum of, I'm afraid I've seen it and I was absolutely blown away by it. It's gorgeous. It's this big organic loop that just looks like it shouldn't be a building, but it's on the dial of one of his watches. We see the date window also nodding to Dubai as well. Of course, you won't hear me say this about many watchmakers, but he's got lovely eyes, Mr. Tenor. If you scroll down, very dreamy. Blue green eyes. So if you'd like to base your luxury purchases on the attractiveness of a watchmaker's peepers, then you know, he should feature near the top of the list. So, personal compliments aside, we have to make a decision. Now, I'm not sure that tenors output has been thus far prolific enough for me to really knock off either ADC or Pares. For me, it's between those first two that we mentioned. Do you have a preference that would lead us towards a decision?
- [22:08]
A
I am fanboy of Pages, so I have to go for him.
- [22:13]
B
Good. You know what? I think I almost convinced myself that was the right way to go with my thought of who would I like to lead us into battle against the French. So we'll go with Raul Pages as our selection for the Spanish team and we will move on to France. Now this is. This is a tough one. There are some great brands that are founded in France. Now, just to give you an idea of how we're making these selections, it's very similar to how you would make a selection for a football team in general. If you are born somewhere, then you can play there. And by born we mean founded. So if a brand was founded in Paris or in France anywhere else, it's eligible for selection. If your parents both hail from that region, which is the case for Pajes himself, who he himself was born in Switzerland, but both his parents are Spanish, you are eligible for selection. And I suppose we could employ the old Jack Charlton grandfather or Granny rule, if you prefer, going as far back as that. But I think what we're really focused on is where was the brand founded and where does the watchmaker themselves identify with most keenly? So that means on our list for the French and we had to be quite selective here we've got a mixture of new and very old brands we are considering between Space One, Serica, Jema, Breguet, Cartier, Bell and Ross and Hermes. So we've got quite a few to rattle through here. I will let you take this away with Space One.
- [23:57]
A
Thank you. So on this list I could have added maybe the same quantity. One of them is Trilob. Just kicking that one in and out again. But since you mentioned Space One, I do have to mention the ofre because that is one third of the magic that makes Space One so special. He co founded that together with, well, we've nicknamed him Sexy Boy and now everybody calls him Sexy Boy. Guillaume, they keep bringing the heat. They've Done. Three chapters. The fourth one, launched in April during Geneva watch Week, was the collab with Baltic. So now suddenly we tie in three brands together or three amazing French entrepreneurs. What can I say? Excellent choice, Ro. Good one to start with. It brings avant gardism to French watchmaking and that's what I love, because obviously you've mentioned Breguet. Breguet is the pinnacle of classicism and classic watchmaking and also the pinnacle of watchmaking and innovation. And I think that's what the French do well in fashion, even cars. I was just walking with a buddy of mine and we saw the new Renault 5, the electrified, retro, inspired Renault 5, which looks awesome. So the French have pedigree, they have heritage, but they can do ultra avant gardism. What can I add more, Rob?
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B
Well, I think you've said it all very well, to be honest. Space One, with OFRE's involvement as well, is featured on this list because of, I would say, a lot of the activities he's done separate to it. And the collab with Baltic is really why I felt quite comfortable putting this brand on this list instead of Baltic. It was close, but I had to chop some of the options off the list because French watchmaking is in fine fettle at the moment, as David Vaucher has frequently reminded us. I think Space One hit the ground running. I think that they burst onto the scene with something nobody really expected at a ridiculously accessible price point for the of creativity that was on show. I think they followed that up with Tellurium, which I think is for me the most ambitious and perhaps most successful execution of the concept, which is pretty expansive in itself. But my preference is for the GMT because I think that that fuses the wearability of the initial model with the creativity and the wild display for Tellurium. The collab with Baltic was something wholly unexpected and absolutely sublime. I would say the Charbonnage limited, limited version of it was the way to go, even though it was a thousand euros more in in price. I think that seeing that technique, which is a hand applied clouding of the visible plate surfaces, is something very special that you see very, very seldom in watchmaking today. Moving on to a brand that is of similar age and of similar visibility. Serica. Serica's done an incredible job of establishing a very identifiable design language and a very tight collection with variety within it. I think everybody I know is a big fan. I remember when we had many early Serica models coming through our hands in the desks of Fratello. We were all blown Away by the quality at the price point and the subtle tweaks on some existing designs with their early divers that made them stand out and made them extremely desirable. And then I think everyone was bowled over by the release of the Parader. I don't think anyone really saw that coming, but there was a great need for non round watches with beautiful textured dials in that price point. So huge amount of time for Serica. I think that they have an a really loyal following and I think that they're just primed to get bigger and bigger and bigger over the coming decade.
- [28:09]
A
Love that brand. I agree with you. They are on the right trajectory and they'll keep on growing. They bring value for money as well. Timeless designs, I wouldn't even call it retro inspired or vintage inspired. It is, of course, but it has a contemporary feel to it. Sizes are modest, designs are modest. So these are evergreen. What I would love to see if they would make a modern Serica watch. Do you catch my drift?
- [28:36]
B
Yeah, I guess I see where you're coming from there, but I do think that you kind of hit the nail on the head with, you know, your vintage, but not timeless for sure. Evergreen is a great word to describe watches like this. I think that they've found their niche and I do think it's important for brands to find their lane and actually to stick within it, to be as creative as possible within that lane, but to not try and be everything to all people, to just really double down on what it is that they've established. They have a design language that I really love. I think that we could envisage a collaboration with a brand like Baltic, for example, or like Space, one that would enable them to do something outside of their wheelhouse. But I think that if they did do something like that, I prefer it to be a special one off piece for news and awareness.
- [29:25]
A
I stand corrected. My sieve of a mine. I forgot they created the parade. I just have a quick look at their website. So their oval watch, that's exactly what I hope they would do and they did and I simply forgot that they did it. So mea culpa. I shut up. Amazing brand. They took a left turn or right turn or call it whatever turn and it's a magnificent watch. Just below €1500 in that you have a Patek gondola vibe. Ish watch, but it is very much Serica and it's even contemporary. So kudos to you guys. Amazing brand to mention, Rob, well done.
- [30:06]
B
All right, moving on to one of David's favorites. Jema obviously quite well known for a series of very classic designs, but with interesting movements not often or ever seen in other brands. Watches. So lovely little wrinkle there. That adds a huge amount of value to an otherwise relatively safe aesthetic portfolio. Although the Wristmaster, of course, is its own thing, it certainly ticks the boxes when you're looking for an integrated steel or titanium sports watch. So, yeah, very popular, good volume seller, nice movements. Maybe not as ambitious design wise as the brands that we've mentioned thus far, but definitely deserves to be in consideration as France's number one warrior.
- [30:57]
A
Two things. I love the one you've chosen, but I love the Superman, especially the bracelet on that. It shows that they're. They're bringing yema into the 21st century of French design. But it's a holistic brand in the sense that they're making their own calibers as well, which they're putting French watchmaking back on the map. They're the frontrunner together with Pekinier. We didn't add Peking into this list, but I think if we do a French special, we can do a three, four hour episode in one go because there's so much happening there. And that's awesome. That's the little nugget I wanted to add. We have way more brands, so let's keep on going.
- [31:38]
B
Okay, so next on the list is the big hitter that is Brega. And this is an interesting one. And I want to just reveal a little bit of research I did into this because for years David's been saying Breguet's French. And I've always had this thing in the back of my head saying, is he French or is he Swiss? Like, what's going on there? So I looked into it, did more of a deep dive than ever done into his origin story. And he was born in Neuchatel, which is part of Switzerland today. When Breguet was born in Neuchatel, it was actually the capital of the Principality of Neuchatel, which was aligned with the Confederation of Swiss States, but it was not a Swiss state itself. In fact, it was under the governance of the Prussian Empire. So Breguet is either Neuchatel, Oise, or nationally speaking, Prussian. But his parents were French and he moved to France in his teens where he established Breguet in Paris in 1775 and went on to become, of course, watchmaker to the court, to the royalty of France at the time, and made his name there in his Parisian workshop. He did return to Switzerland during the French Revolution or one of the revolutions for sanctuary. But I think it's fair enough to say that Breguet qualifies on many levels as French, not only through parentage, through the foundation of a company, but also because he did become a French naturalized citizen, despite being nationally Prussian. So that's something I didn't know and I thought might be interesting for the listeners what to say about Breguet, probably the most impactful watchmaker of his time, arguably the most impactful watchmaker in history and a company that has continued to do that name proud, sometimes more proud than others. But very recently, with the release of the Experimentale, we see them back, back exactly where they should be leading from the front.
- [33:40]
A
What can I add? You've first of all, thank you for the history lesson. I knew almost everything besides the Prussian one, so that's interesting. And for argument's sake, when we call Hamilton is owned by the Swatch group like Breguet, we call that American, American spirit. We'll keep Breguet just French, although I don't think they do much in Paris or France anymore. But that doesn't matter matter. It's about the spirit and, and the World cup is also in the spirit of, of countries. We can have discussions about players with dual citizenships, which we're not going to do right now. I'm very happy that they finally made a switch in their leadership almost two years ago, ramping up to their 250th anniversary. We saw fireworks there and I'm happy it wasn't a one off. It's a, a, a a route they have decided to travel on and it, I would wouldn't even dare to say it looks promising. They actually are delivering on stuff that Breguet should deliver. So kudos to them.
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B
Next on the list. No surprises to see this one feature given our criteria. Cartier, founded in 1847 by Parisian watchmaker Louis Francois Cartier when he took over the workshop of his master at 29 Rue Montorguil in Paris. It has become one of the most prominent and beloved not just watchmakers, but jewelers in the world. So a nice bit of crossover with your field of or secondary field of expertise or primary expertise. I'm not sure how you club it anymore. It's a lot of a lot, isn't it? So talking about Cartier, they continue to be headline grabbers. We see them on the wrists of the rich and famous and they rarely disappoint because they rarely do anything wholly stupid. So that's kind of refreshing and also something you might want to look to when you're choosing a representative to take on the Spanish in the semi final of this World cup because they don't look likely to mess up. They'd be surprisingly good in defense.
- [35:49]
A
Well said. I don't have much to add. I don't think we have have to add much more for Katya either. Very remarkable history and story and how they've started with jewelry.
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B
Indeed.
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A
And they split up at a certain point. Three brothers into three cities. Paris, London, New York. They were at a certain point three separate entities. And then the Vendome group that later became Richemont. They've brought everything under one roof again. And today, funny story, Cartier is the biggest earner for the Richemont group and mostly due to jewelry. So it's almost full circle. And if you're intrigued by their history, one of the descendants of the Cartiers, who is Francesca Cartier Brickell, wrote an awesome book a few years ago called the Untold Story of the Family behind the Jewry Empire. So I highly recommend to get that book for your your summer reading if you're into this.
- [36:49]
B
Very good tip. I might check that out myself. And moving from one of the most historical French brands to one of the youngest, but I would say most established given its data foundation, Bell and Ross, which was originally set up in 1992 by lifelong friends Bruno Bellamich and Carlos a Brazilo, who of course has been on the show a couple of times himself. Now Belarus has got its own aesthetic, unlike like pretty much anything else out there, although many brands have tried to copy it unsuccessfully since. What do we think about Bell and Ross as a slight curveball to this selection process?
- [37:26]
A
This proves a hypothesis or something I've posed maybe that the French definitely have French design and they push the envelope on design and avant gardism. So they've started making beautiful tool watches literally made by sin, and it even set it on the dial made by sin. Then I think they've come in to themselves and created DNA with the BR3, the cockpit, dashboard clocks, watches. They really carved out their own DNA. We know that Cedric Bellon helps them a lot as well, which is an amazing designer. So I love what Belarus does. It's amazing to see that it isn't a true mono model brand, as Rob Nunns coined that term, because they have more models, but they're famous for the Brain 3, although their newest model, BR5 is a nice evolution of that and shows that they have a platform of models. I dare to call it contemporary. So I love that in France, we have this dualism of extreme classicism, where Theelfre is also rather classic. I would even dare to call him the reincarnation of Gabriel Brigade. Get and you'll see ultra modern with. Well, we didn't mention your dear friend Blow. It's also very modern, so there's a lot going on in France. It's awesome to see. So good pick.
- [39:16]
B
Next on the list is a famous fashion house that's really moved heaven and earth to become a serious player in a watchmaking scene, and that is Hermes. With early and heavy investment in their own manufacturing facilities, they have surprised us year in, year out with complications from a movement perspective that we did not expect to see at all. Alongside excellent aesthetics. And I think although there are more impressive models, mechanically speaking, the relatively recently released Hermes cot really caught the imagination of many, many watch fans looking for a new icon for Hermes. And I think that they found it in the cot, and I think that has great cross appeal across all genders. I would love to wear one. I think that it's a surprisingly easy to wear and versatile watch, and I think they deserve their place on this list. Absolutely. You know, there are some great fashion houses like Chanel could have been on this list, but we decided to go with Hermes instead, and I think it's a worthy opponent to the remainder. Do you have anything to say about Hermes before we make our selection to go up against Raoul Paja?
- [40:32]
A
Well, I think we've always gave Hermes, rightfully so, a lot of love. I always appreciate the fact that very early on, they bought 25% of the manufacturer vaucher. So the caliber manufacturer behind parming Gianni Flui and the Sandoz foundation, that showed already where they wanted to go. They caught my attention as a collector with the slim derme, especially because of the font that would trigger me to buy them. Then Cape Cod is a watch. I said, hey, interesting with the Hermes Ho Ho 8. I said, hey, they're now really making contemporary watch for men. Yesterday I got a press release with a reinterpretation of the cape code. I don't know if you saw that full titanium with sharp edges. And that really triggered me. I said, hey, that's a watch I would like to own. So that's a little nugget as a collector I wanted to add to Hermes, but let's go to the voting round. Very difficult one. I'm very curious, Rob, which one you think should take the lead in this world Cup?
- [41:46]
B
Nice drop. About the new Cape Cod. I'd own a Cape Cod. I'd Love one. I think they're beautiful and great alternative to tanks, actually. I've always thought that they were a little bit more off the beaten track and really beautifully proportioned. I have a Hamilton Ardmore that I've had for years and years and years and I see the Cape Cod as kind of the grown up version of that. So I'll check out this titanium one because I've not seen it and that sounds very desirable indeed for me. The conversation probably begins and ends with this lineup with Breguet. And I struggle to not put Breguet forward as my nominee for this semi final because I just think there's so much, so much going for it and especially with the experimentality release, they have proven that they've still got the minerals. So yeah, for me it's Breguet. Any, any argument?
- [42:35]
A
No hands. Hands down, Breguet. There was no argument or even contemplation there for me either. So that was two countries in the semi final. Going to the next semi final, Argentina. Maybe we should do that one. Very difficult because I'm liking. Hey, are there Argentinian watchmakers? They love watches in Argentina. Always did. My dear friends From Amsam Watch Co. Vintage dealers went in the late 90s, early 2000s, when Argentina was hit by a very severe recession, they went to Argentina, they bought, I kid you not, kilos of watches. I swear they spoke about wages, not quantity of cases, not quantity of watches, not quantity of calibers. They bought kilos of vintage Heuers, Breitlings, Rolexes, Tudors, Omegas, kilos. Rob, they didn't have enough cash to Bring back the suitcases. 22 kilos. A suitcase in a KLM flight. Wow.
- [43:43]
B
Okay, well, Surprises me. I thought if you're exporting kilos of something from Argentina, it wouldn't have been watches. But there was. Ah, yeah, of course. That's what I was talking about. About stakes. Yeah, stakes. Great to hear, but you're right, there aren't many watchmakers in Argentina at all. In fact, this was basically a dead end when I started looking into it. I found a couple of brands, but to be honest, they're not really worth mentioning in the context of Breguet and Raul Pajes, who we know will be waiting for either Argentina or England in the final. And so I have a slightly curveball suggestion that I think should, should really be the only brand that we address in this context. And I'm going for a naturalized citizen and that is Audemars Piguet that has spent so many years on the wrist of Lionel Messi that by now it is surely worthy of an Argentinian passport. So as stupid as this suggestion is and as tongue in cheek as it is being made in full awareness, I would say let's give Argentina apart for Messi. I mean, to be fair, he always gets the nod from the refs. And so if we can, if we, if this art form that we're creating here can imitate life somewhat, we'll cheat and we'll give Messi and Argentina oromarpigui. No offense to our Argentinian listeners. I'm sure that you take it in good humor. I'm still bitter about 1986, the first World cup for which I was alive, gladly not old enough to appreciate what happened in that clash between Argentina and England back then and Maradona's hand, famously. So unless you have any protest, I would say let's say Argentina has Audemars Piguet and we move on to England because we've got quite a few brands to run through there.
- [45:34]
A
I totally agree. He's a watch nerd. His collection is very, very, very much gravitate to the let's call it the Holy Trinity. Rolex, Patek and Audemars Piguet. The one that I love the most in his collection that I, that I've spotted was the AP concept royal collab with quas where cause is in the middle. So that's a cool one. And unfortunately I can't share to a nugget of information that I've gained last weekend while having dinner with one of my suppliers that is currently making a one off for Messi and he's shown me the render and that proves he's a real, real watch nerd Messi. So kudos to Messi and I agree with you. So Argentina done England, another huge list of brands we can run down. All right.
- [46:27]
B
Despite the fact that this brand is going to pop up very soon, I still object to you putting Rolex in the Holy Trinity instead of Vacheron. I just don't think that that is correct. I don't think it's an opinion thing either. I think that it's pp, AP and vc. It's nothing else. You can have your own Holy Trinity, but this idea that Rolex somehow features in that essence Echelon. Nonsense.
- [46:52]
A
I didn't say it's my Holy Trinity. I agree with you. I took the commercial mainstream Holy Trinity.
- [46:59]
B
No, I disagree. I disagree with that. I think you're wrong. I think that. I think the general accepted Trinity is VCPP and ap.
- [47:07]
A
I Agree, but in the Flex culture, that is the Holy Trinity. But that's a different discussion. Let's do a Holy Trinity episode because back in the day JLC was in there.
- [47:19]
B
No, it wasn't. It was never in there. The Holy Trinity has not been a malleable and transient thing. It has been always what it is. And I will, I will die on that hill. If you want a whole episode of me dying on that hill and you listing holy trinities for Flex culture or modern day or the 1830s, then fine, we can do it. But I don't think it'll be particularly amusing unless any of our listeners, maybe most of the Argentinian population now want to see me die on a hill. So. Okay, fine, moving on. Moving on to England. We've got a few to run through here. We've got Roger Smith, Frodsham Garrick Studio, Underdog, Fiers, Strothers and Rolex. That's right, we're claiming Rolex as we should have claimed Erling Haaland or Elise for that matter. Could you imagine if we'd had both of those English born players in our team? But hey, Rolex was founded in London and therefore it is available for selection. I'm sure that if Thomas Tuchel gave Rolex a call, they'd tell him where to go, say no, we're playing for the Swiss and you can take a running jump. But they are a viable option. So let's start at the top with Roger Smith. Probably the finest modern watchmaker certainly Britain has to offer arguably in the world. Where do you stand on that?
- [48:37]
A
Hands down, the best in the United Kingdom. I can't argue anything that there lovely gentleman. He spends his time on charity because he's one of the co founders of the British alliance of clock makers and watchmakers. So he gives back the protege of the famous George Daniels and he continues his amazing work. There's nothing to add there. I mean, what can I add there? A close is fr. In my humble opinion then it's a close tie between the STR couple, husband and wife and then probably Garrick. And I'm sorry, I'm rambling quickly through, but these. Smith stands on a soul plateau with these three maybe just underneath him. How do you see it?
- [49:25]
B
I mean, not to bury the lead, but yeah, I can't really disagree with you like when it comes to personal preference. I think the Frod movements are maybe the sexiest thing I've ever seen in my life. I love the dials. I prefer Smith's dial work. I have to Say I prefer Smith's cases, but when it comes to movements. And you probably tell why I like Frodstrom because it has a certain German vibe to it and, you know, that's where my preference generally lies, in where my heart goes. If I were to buy any of the four brands you mentioned, including Garrick and Struthers, I would buy a Strothers because I'm friends with Rebecca and Craig and I love their work and I really respect what they're doing with a very small, tight knit, obviously marital operation. And, you know, for me that's just catnip as a watchmaker, like seeing what they've brought back to life and now what they've developed themselves with a.248 calibre, so that's difficult in terms of, of everyday wearability, it's a strange way to characterise this watch. But also in terms of general everyday aesthetic, I think Garrick is really a good argument there because it takes like incredible dial finishing, very striking handset and wonderful movements and puts it together in a package that in comparison to the others is pretty damn affordable. So, yeah, there's arguments to be made for all those heavy hitters within that group and I guess we've kind of managed to, to tie them all off in one neat little bow there. So we'll move on to the two, shall we say, smaller but feistier brands. Studio Underdog and Fiers obviously connected through their own collaborations with one another doing very different things. Nicholas and the team at Fiers are continuing a legacy that stretches back in his family history. He's the fourth managing director of Fiers and bringing classic watchmaking back to Bristol Crystal very effectively. Meanwhile, Rich over at Studio Underdog is repeatedly overturning apple carts in the industry. And apples are probably a pretty appropriate thing to mention when it comes to his fruits and food based dials. No one's done more in five years. I would say to go from 0 to 100. And he's really, really smashed it. Everything he touches turns to gold. He's not just a great designer, but a marketing genius as well. Hard to choose between the two. I mean, they're so different, but they're so united in friendship and collaboration. I'd say that they probably, when it comes to selecting a finalist or potential finalist out of these brands, they probably sit a tick below the big four. But then there's the curveball. Then there's Rolex. What do we do with Rolex here?
- [52:27]
A
Well, I agree with you 100%. Wilsdorf and Davis, his English brother in law. So yeah, it is English, especially if we think Hamilton is American and we say Breguet is French. So well done, Rob.
- [52:43]
B
And Jack Charlton would be proud of me, I tell you he would. Do you know who Jack Charlton is, by the way?
- [52:48]
A
No. Please do tell.
- [52:50]
B
Well, he's the brother of Bobby Charlton, an English, played for England in the 1966 World cup final, but was famously the coach of the Republic of Ireland, which of course is the team I grew up supporting and still would choose as my de facto team if they had made it to the World Cup. And he led them to the 1994 World Cup's great success where they made it to the quarterfinals, which was the deepest run the Irish have ever managed. He's a beloved figure in Ireland, an honorary Irishman to say the least and spoken of very highly in managerial circles. And he really did push this Granny Rule as they referred to it back then, trying to find players that were just about eligible to represent Ireland, going through the birth certificates of every player he could find to see if there was an Irish relative somewhere so he could call them up for the Republic. And yeah, obviously it did a decent job. It causes some consternation on the island of Ireland that there were so many English born players representing the side. But you know, I think if Ireland had ever gone on to win the World cup because of that rule, there'd be fewer people complaining. So here we are. He was a hero of mine growing up. I used to love watching him on the sidelines of his flat cap and his, shall we say, old school attitude. So yeah, shout out to the late, great Jack Charlton. Rolex. I mean,
- [54:17]
A
it's a tough one, honestly, it's a footballer's World Watch brand. So we have to elect Rolex. But let's do a sighting. Imagine we didn't call Rolex British, which we did. But if it wasn't in there, what would have you chosen then?
- [54:37]
B
Well, look, I'm not actually going to choose Rolex, so we might have to argue about this. And the reason for that is because when you're choosing a side, you don't always choose your best players. You know, you sometimes look at England, you know, Lampard and Gerrard can never occupy the same midfield. You know, you've got Cole Palmer, Phil Foden, Jack Grealish all sitting at home because, okay, they've not had great seasons by their standards, but again, you can't have too many cooks in the kitchen. And you know, we've gone with the combination of Bellingham And Anderson to start with. And then there's, you know, substitutes in the form of Rodgers. Really, you can slot into Bellingham's role if he's having a bad day. Not that it looks like he's likely to have one anytime soon. So even though Rolex is itself an exceptionally talent, an individual player, I'm not sure I would pick that because when I'm looking ahead at the competition that we have to face, I'm going to pick someone who's going to go toe to toe with brands like Audemars, Piguet, Raul Pages and Breguet. And so for me, I'm going with the big guy, Roger Smith. I would choose Roger Smith because I think they've got a better chance against the opposition.
- [55:41]
A
Fair enough. Good enough analogy. I'll stick with Rolex for argument's sake because I hope England will win. It's. It's my. It's my second home. I can't choose anything else. I. And you know, I adore Smith. But for argument's sake, not to concur on everything we do on the show, I'm going for Rolex. My personal wish is that England wins. Obviously, I'm daydreaming, but I'm super happy to meet it to the semi finals. So let's take it there. Rob, what's your prediction? Who's going to take the World Cup 20, 26?
- [56:19]
B
Well, hang on a second because unfortunately we have to reach an accord here. And since we're both. We're tired, we've gone to penalties. It's Rolex against Roger Smith for the representation of England. We're gonna have to toss a coin. Just hang on a second. I need to find a coin. I have a coin somewhere. I'll give you the. The honor of choosing which side heads or tails you want. You want Rolex to be on and I'll take the other.
- [56:42]
A
Rolex is going to be heads because the crown goes on ahead.
- [56:47]
B
Okay, so just so. Okay, listeners, you can't see this. I am actually tossing a coin and I'm hoping it comes up tails because I want Roger Smith. Alon is plugging for heads because he wants Rolex to represent England in the semi final against Argentina. Toss the coin. Back of the hands. It is. Oh, it's a euro. I don't know which is which. Oh, damn it. It's heads. And ironically, I picked a German euro. So I got the eagle of Germany, which is the heads. Damn it. Okay, that means that Rolex is our selection for the semi finals. So let's move quickly on to the main event. Semi final number one, France against Spain. Raul Pages against Breguet, who is taking their team to the final.
- [57:30]
A
Final. Bre. Ding, Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
- [57:37]
B
Yeah, I think it has to be France, right? I think Bre. Much respect to Ralph, but give it another 200 years and then, then we'll see.
- [57:46]
A
So, yeah, France, France is going to the final. So that's hands down.
- [57:50]
B
France is going to the final and
- [57:52]
A
then I hope England, but obviously it's going to be Argentina. But what's. What's your stance? Ends there.
- [57:58]
B
Are we talking in the game or are we talking in real life?
- [58:01]
A
Not in real life. Let's. Let's do it in parallel real life.
- [58:06]
B
In real life. I think it's going to be a very competitive game. I don't think it'll be particularly low scoring. Actually. I could see goals in both, in both ends because neither team has been particularly solid at the back. Interestingly enough, Messi, I can't remember if he's played 205 times for Argentina or if this will be his 205th, but he's played over 200 times for Argentina and he has never played against England, strangely. So this is the first time he will ever suit up against the Three Lions. And if England are somehow to dig out a victory, they could well end his international career in a heartbreaking fashion. And I hope they do. And I am going to say I think England will win 3 2.
- [58:52]
A
I hope so, too.
- [58:55]
B
You look like you feel very sorry for me right now. Your face is a picture. I wish people could see it. He doesn't look at all convinced. What's your scoreline prediction then? I guess in favor of Argentina, don't send us to penalties. Although that is.
- [59:08]
A
It will be penalties for sure. For sure. It will be penalties for sure. Although maybe one one and then penalties will be three two. So that ends up four three.
- [59:23]
B
You know, I kind of actually, I don't know. Martinez is good. I don't like Martinez very much. I'm not a huge fan of Pickford, but I think he's an excellent shot stopper. And he saved two penalties in the Euro 2020 against Italy. So you never know. We might actually do it this time. We'll see. But back to the competition at hand. Audemars Piguet versus Rolex ap. Oh, all right. Well, screw you. I'm going Rolex. Heads or tails?
- [59:52]
A
I stick with heads.
- [59:53]
B
Oh, God, of course you did. It's always heads, Right? Here we go. Oh, it's tails. Which means Rolex qualifies for the final. This is disgusting. I can't believe that we ended up putting Rolex as the. As the English. I feel bad. I shouldn't have done this. Now I'm an absolute traitor. Okay, so we're in the final. We have France against England. We have Breguet against Rolex. Do we need to discuss this or is it going to penalties again?
- [60:24]
A
Penalties. Penalties. Why?
- [60:26]
B
What are you saying?
- [60:27]
A
It's actually very interesting if we, if we should have pulled up the stats. How many of the finals have not been penalties?
- [60:34]
B
How many have not been penalties? Yes, finals. The majority of the finals have not been penalties. Off the top of my head, I can think 1994 was penalties. Brazil against Italy. 2006 was penalties. Italy against France. The majority of finals have not been to penalties. The vast majority.
- [60:54]
A
Extra time.
- [60:55]
B
A couple of times. England, Germany 66. Six extra time. Holland, Spain, Argentina, Germany. They're all extra time.
- [61:01]
A
So I'm gonna say. Okay, let's. For argument's sake, no, do penalties. So two one.
- [61:06]
B
Two one to whom?
- [61:09]
A
Rolex.
- [61:11]
B
To Rolex. Oh, my goodness. Well, I. I would say it will be 2:1 to Breguet. So we are going to penalties again. Heads or tails? Are we heads or tails to decide the World Cup. Okay. Okay. So heads, England win. Tails, France win. And I'm on the side of the French for some reason. Okay, what did I say? Heads, England. Tails, France.
- [61:36]
A
Heads, England.
- [61:38]
B
Oh my God, it's heads. England win the World Cup.
- [61:41]
A
Rolex stays crowned. They don't lose their crown.
- [61:45]
B
This is a bittersweet turnaround. I didn't expect this to happen. So the winner of our World World cup somehow on penalties, is Rolex for England. So it's coming home, hopefully to London and not to Switzerland. Yeah, there we go. That's it. That is the conclusion of the TRTS World Cup 2026. The winners are England and the winning brand, believe it or not, is Roland.
- [62:19]
A
Talking about fantasy football,
- [62:23]
B
this has taken a whole new angle on it. Well, Alon, thanks for that. Rather long and meandering, but I think quite interesting episode with a little bit of mirth thrown in there at the end with our three penalty shootouts to not only decide the English representative, but to get England past Argentina and surprisingly past France and Breguet in the final for their second World cup overall and first TRTS edition of the showpiece event. It's been a pleasure talking to you and we will be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on kicking.
- [63:00]
A
Lol.
- [63:14]
B
Sam.