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Foreign.
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Watch fans. And welcome back to the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Nudds, our friendly neighborhood jeweler, Alon Ben Joseph, and our friendly neighborhood friendly from another brand, Martin Fry, back in the studio 300 plus episodes after his first appearance in episode 14. Way back when. Time has flown, has it not, Martin? And for once you've got your shirt on. So that's a first for our listeners to enjoy.
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C
Was that in summertime, during summertime or something?
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B
I think you were on a beach somewhere enjoying Thailand.
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C
In Thailand, yeah. You always catch me somewhere at a special place. Here I'm not at home and also not in my studio. I'm here in an art space that I'm somehow working on preparing the first exhibition. So you caught me somehow. Also a bit in between things. But not at the beach. Definitely not.
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A
We actually caught you at an art gallery, an exhibition space where we were finding a good room that wasn't that high.
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C
Yep. Yes. Now we just had to quick change space because downstairs it is a big, bigger space. Actually really cool exhibition space, but it's, it has a big echo. Like it's a huge resonating room. So I found out when I said a word, the first word, I was like, whoops, that's a bit too much. So I moved here to the office space and here, this is actually the perfect place to do the talk.
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A
So, Martin, you said to us that this is one of the many side jobs you have and do together with a friend, you're setting up an exhibition. I've been an admirer of both Felix's and your work ever since you've started. Proud owner of an Urwerk watch. I definitely dare to say you guys create mechanical art.
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C
Now.
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A
Your Instagram posts are one of my favorites because they're very artistic.
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C
Thank you.
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A
You being in an art space and not your own studio right now, how much do you think that what uwerk and all of you together create is art?
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C
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, so I think the watch, because there's other devices that nowadays help us to organize the day, like to do somehow the scheduling and you know, the. Yeah, let's say the organizing of our time, the time structure. Like we have our phones, of course, smart devices that can do that much better. So the watch in this sense was freed a bit, you know, in what the watch can do or what the watch stands for. That's at least how I, how I see it. And I really, I really like that aspect. So with watches, we measure time and time is something Strange, something that we don't measure, understand. It's a riddle. It's a riddle for the physicists who somehow tried to figure out what it is. And in the very beginning, obviously, philosophers and physicists were the same. And somehow artists are in this sense also seeking truth. They're also seeking, or at least try to find out what the world is. They're researchers in this sense. And so I think that the watch, by asking the question, what is time? Of course, this is not the main job that it got. It has to tell time. And it's all clear what that is, if you look at it for the first five seconds. But when you start to think, what is time? You understand that it's something strange. That allows us to ask more questions. Now, when you start to indicate time differently, as we do that with our Urwerk watches, with quite a few different models that we have, we do it in different ways. We have a linear time indication. For instance, we created, or we measure instead of time, we measure distance, which is something strange. We know since Einstein, of course, that space and time are interlinked or somehow the same, different aspects of the same. So there again, it leaves up space, space to think. And we have with time something that concerns us human beings very closely, very importantly. And when you indicate time differently, as we do it with our satellites, with the wandering hours, we have this one hour that we focus on, so we have a more narrow moment to consider. And in this sense, we start to understand time as something different, something. And that's maybe another truth of it that happens right now. So when you look at an hourglass and you see the sand passing through a narrow gap, you. You understand that that's where it's happening, like a second that is turning on your watch, like something that indicates you that the moment is right here. Right. So it's always a question of how you look at time. And you can do that in different ways that gives you a different answer. So you are deeply, already somehow inside of philosophical questions. And that's what I love about that strange thing that we measure with our tools, with our devices. So the watch is a bit freed because other devices taking over the scheduling. So it can become a bit more like a philosophical machine. Is it art? It's. It's art and it's science, it's philosophy. That's what I would say.
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A
It is indeed. And you've done it again last summer. You've invited us for very relaxed and fun high tea in Geneva, and I literally fell off my chair because I had A shock to the system by seeing a watch that wasn't a satellite system, it had hands. It was built on the platform I love very much. Most probably my next Urwerk watch, the UR hundred. But you knocked off a zero. The UR ten. I'm referring to the space meter.
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C
That's right.
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A
Aesthetically, it appeased me. Then you've guys explained what you've done there. It blew my mind because it's never been done before and I blurred out. This is brilliant. This is a watch for narcissists. This is what partners of narcissists should buy for their partner to make them aware that the world does not revolve around them. Please tell us and walk us through the philosophy behind that watch.
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C
Yeah, no, it's an absolutely. It's a stunning thing and it has a cool story to it. It starts actually with Felix's father. And Felix's father entered. He's an antique clock restorer and he was busy with clocks for the whole of his life, I'd say. So he knows about clocks. But he stepped into a shop where there is antique clocks, something that he does probably every day. But then he saw this strange CL among the clocks that he didn't understand. So that's how I imagine it. He would go closer to somehow trying to figure out how that whole thing, how that thing works, because he sees numbers that he never saw before on that clock. And with a bit of puzzling, and I'm sure it took him a moment, but then he understood that it is actually, instead of indicating time, it's indicating the distance that we travel around the axis of our planet. And that crazy clock was designed or created by Monsieur Sando. He's the third clock maker. I think it's the third. How do you say, nautical clock maker or how do you call that? Yeah, not like. Not nautical. How do you say that again? Not nautical clock. How is it again? Maritime clock. Yeah, Maraunal clock. Exactly. That's what it is. So he was after Berthoud and Breguet, he was the third clock maker of the French king. And he had created this crazy clock for an exhibition, a world exhibition. It was. He died before, but it was exhibited in Chicago at the time when, you know, when the first exhibition with electric light was presented. So it was a super futuristic exhibition, world exhibition. Also Tesla, the incredible inventor Tesla was showing his crazy inventions and. Yeah, so that guy Sonto had also shown his clock. And he, before Einstein came up with his theory, had already, as a clock maker, somehow understood this relationship between space and Time, it is expressed with this clock. It is expressed, you know, even though, and that's what a clockmaker understands, that astronomy and time keeping, of course, interlinked. This is something that the clockmaker understood much before Einstein came up with his theory. And it was beautifully exhibited in this clock that the father of Felix found in his shop. And it just stood there among clocks indicating something different is related to time and that's distance. What we found super fascinating is that you have a time indication that is not indicating time, even though it does so it's just something beautiful. And we had for the first time used it in Aura 100. There you don't see it moving because there somehow the distance meter moves with the speed of the time indication. It's very slow and so you don't really see anything moving. The convincing thing though with the Santo clock is that you have a second hand. It's not a second hand even though it's the same, right? But it's a hand that shows the distance that we travel. And so every step is something like, what is it, like a giant chomp. So you travel, I don't know, 500 meters or something like this with one index that you enhance on the dial. And so you do a trip through space. You know, all of a sudden you understand, oh, wow, with every move of this hand, you know, I'm traveling in space. And so we thought to create a watch that takes this inspiration even one step further, we developed the UR10. So in the first dial you actually have basically the same. You have that trip around the axis, the center of our Earth. With one turn around the dial, the hand goes one turn around the dial. You have 10 kilometers that you traveled around the center of our planet. That's the first motion of our Earth in space, around itself, so to say. And then there's of course, the next trip, the next motion that is our trip around the sun. So if you go one time around the sun, that's one year, we know that that's how it goes, right? But we can of course indicate that on a dial. And so you have actually 1000km when you go once around with the hand on that second dial. So that just shows you in a way an indicator that tells you that time is happening right now. But what does time mean? Time is motion, time is change. So it's this motion that we do, that crazy trip that we are on through space. We will never ever be at exactly the same place because we are spinning like mad somehow very fast through space, because these are Only the two first motions of course Afterwards we are on a trip around the center of the galaxy. So that distance that we travel on that route is even, even bigger. So one could imagine a third indicator that tells you how far we travel around the center of the galaxy. And that's also not the end. There's some few more motions I think altogether interestingly, seven motions that we do through space. And as I said in the same way you can't step into the same river twice. You will be never ever at the same place on this trip. So from the moment on, on you're born, you're on a trip through space. And I calculated with ChatGPT if you get about 100, optimistically I'd say you travel further than the border of our planetary system into space, like halfway to the star, the next star. So it's quite fantastic trip that we do, but it's a linear trip, that's what it is. So this clock is fascinating because it does indicate this other aspect of time. And so it is not a second on our dial. It is, let's say, a relative of the second, it's actually the true second because the second that we measure time as we do, as the Sumerians taught us, where we have 60 minutes and 60 seconds and stuff, that is just a way of calculating of counting time. That is historically the way it is because the Sumerians used their thumb to count. So they have still in this part of the world it's still done. I heard that people would use their thumb and then they count the segments of their fingers. So 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. So this kind of counting time that comes because you use the tom to count and you leave that out, somehow resulted not in a decimal way of counting, which would have been much more efficient, but in the way we count time now. And that in the end gave us the second hand. So in this sense the second hand is a less direct indication of the moment of time happening then our new hand on the UR10 that is actually directly measuring the distance we travel. That's actually the true second, if you will. But it also serves, if you look at the watch perfectly as an indicator of the fact that time is happening right now. That's what this watch does. And to me it's a bit understatement to see this watch, it's very elegant watch, but what it actually does is fascinating. It really came up with an indication, a different time indication. That's basically what we are interested in.
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It's a very unexpected thing.
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C
Now, I don't hear you.
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A
So traveling through time to the edge of space, swinging all the way back to planet Earth, connecting people. You guys have done amazing collabs. I remember Harry Winston Opus series. I believe you did number five.
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C
Yes, indeed. Yeah.
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With your dear friend Max Busser back in the day.
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C
The last one. The last one in the open series that he does. He did actually.
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A
Yeah. Before he.
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C
After that he left.
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He ventured out to start MB&F.
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C
Yes.
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A
And you guys were considered the new kids on the block to push the envelope on horology. Different time indications, as you just explained, and a lot of sci fi inspiration. I want to leap forward because you've done cool stuff with Laurent Ferrier, if I remember correctly. Debetun.
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C
Indeed.
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A
Those were only watch projects. And then you shocked me again this year by teaming up with a brand that I always said should belong in your class. Your of innovation of horology. And I've spent actually last week two days with Stefan von Gunten, also a fantastic watchmaker and had a bit of influence at least. Now them. The. The freak deserves to be up there. Carousel movement so it blew my mind to see the collab you guys launched this year. The UR Freak. Please walk us through. How did you guys get together? Why did you get together? How did you come up with the idea and how long did it take?
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C
It goes actually to a meeting between Felix Baumgartner and Patrick of Udisnada and I think also Michael Tay. They had dinner where they started talking together about things as it is. And they just. Both Felix and Patrick, they found out that. And that's a fact, that the Freak of Wilhelisnade and that's actually where we meet on that level. It's also a mechanism or an invention that was created about the same time. And we started with Urwerk, of course, an older company, and they did other things before, but with the Freak that's exactly where we are in a way, doing something very similar. And they have an orbital mechanism. So it's something that is really. It could be Urwerk. And interestingly. And that's what we learned after that meeting where they decided to work together in a collaboration based on the Freak. When we had a first meeting with the guys of Udis Narda at their place, they had a little introduction there. Really interesting into the Freak and into the history of it nowadays. There were a few things that I didn't know. It was a lady, a designer actually that had that idea originally and it was hustling at the end who made it possible. But it was the collaboration of a designer and of watchmaker that somehow made it possible, that created this freak, the first freak, I'd say. So that was interesting to hear. So we then started thinking about how to merge these two, these two concepts, the Urburg world with the Nada freak world. It's not difficult in this sense because they're quite related. And so we had to figure out how that's done best. Always when you do a collaboration, I would say the cool thing about it is that you have that element of surprise because you can't control everything. Of course, also when we do, in our house, a watch together, it is a collaboration of many different minds and different hands. In this sense, it is not just like one idea and that's it. So it's like a collaboration. But we know in Urwerk we know a bit how we do that together and we have our method. And so when you work together with another brand, then you have to somehow a bit adjust to this other method. And in the end it'd be. I don't want to call it a compromise, but it's kind of a, you know, you have that element of surprise because the other side brings in their, you know, world. So it's. It's. In the end, you want to know how is it going to look? You know, how is it going to look? That's like when you have a child, you know, you want to know how that's going to look. It's a bit. That situation. And so, yeah, we started collaboration, we get to know also we got to see a bit, you know, how another company is doing what they're doing. Usually that was kind of forbidden, you know, you had. This was kind of spying here. What is this? You can't enter. But we agree to a certain degree to share our experience, to work together on something. It's actually, when I think about it, it's really something extraordinary that we allow ourselves to do that because it's different companies. But you want to somehow see how that collaboration, what kind of fruits that that will bring and how that thing will look. So it is fascinating. I also remember when we had the Opus project, or even later with Mox, I have to say, when we did the first collaboration, the Nitro, that was, I think, our first collaboration after the Opus piece. And there the plan originally was an idea that I had was to somehow use both of our names. So the MB and F already existed then and the Urwerk brand name. So I said, let's Make a watch where we have these two brand names, you know, written on the face of the watch. That's quite cool. So you have this kind of collaboration visually indicated. It's kind of like a schizophrenic situation when you see two brand names on a watch. Right. But we didn't do it there. We created a company especially to. Or also a brand in a way, that nitro. Very complex formula that thing has. So one can't keep it in mind. But it was somehow our answer to that because it was not done at that time that we would have a watch that has two brand names on it. Now with IDIS nada, if you look, that's exactly what you will see. So it's really. We developed it that far that nowadays this is thinkable that you could have like two brand names on one watch. That's pretty cool, I think. Yeah. So we learned from Iris Nada how they do it. Of course, the work on my side is to work with the designers to find a way, you know, how we can. How we can bring the Urwerk spirit into their, you know, watch case. The case was more like from their side. Yeah. So there's like different elements that have to somehow merge together and in the end, you know, create that watch. Then of course, a very big important part was the collaboration on the technical side of the watchmakers. They have a very unique system where you have a crown on the backside, you know, to charge the watch and you have, you know, the bezel on the, on the top to set the time and to have that somehow inside of this case with our time indication, that was not easy. So they really, they created, I think more than half of the parts of the watch are brand new and never existed before. So it's really. It was quite of an effort, you
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A
know, technically, Martin, while listening to you, you guys are such free minds and always have been independent. Together with Girard Perregaux used to be part of the Sawine Group, owned by the Kering Group, the mother company behind Gucci. How much of an importance was that for all of you to work with them? And would you have done this collab if they were part of the Kering Group still?
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C
Yeah, actually we had that first connection that happened with Felix and Patrick at that meeting. And I think we didn't really somehow scan, you know, the whole, the whole. I don't know, you know, it was kind of more an emotional. That's how I could describe it. I think it was an emotional initial moment, you know, where we decided Where Felix and Patrick, you know, where they had this feeling that we could do something together. And I think they didn't really, you know, strategically plan it, you know, like as a, you know, like, does that make sense? You know, this and that. And the other reason it was really an emotional moment to decide to do that together. That's.
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A
So it was organic. Yeah, organic. And you're referring to Patrick Plunio. So he's also the chairman of Girard Perrego. So obviously everybody will ask now is the next collab with Girard Perregaux. So I have to ask.
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C
Yeah, well, that's funny, because there's a story we had at some point talked with Aston Martin and with the designer of Aston Martin at the time about a collaboration with Aston Martin. So I was of course super psyched. You had a super cool idea for that. And we talked about, you know, the Valkyrie car and James Bond movie and stuff like that. So you can imagine how excited I was. But at some point the interest of Aston Martin stopped. And, you know, I don't know at the time, you know, it was somehow strange because they really loved our ideas that we had and it was a bit strange. So later I of course found out that Gerard Perrigo and Aston Martin, they collaborated and the James Bond watch was then designed by Gerald Perigo, which was a really astonishing thing to me. But that's how it went. So I'm a bit angry with them. The second time I tried to get, you know, an urwer watch into James Bond movie, you know, that this didn't work out, let's put it like this. But, you know, you never know. It's. But there's no plans right now about this. There's also not yet, you know, clear plans, you know, if he would do yet another collaboration with Ulyss Nada. But, you know, you never know, you know, never say no in this sense.
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A
Well, obviously you've given Ulysse Sardin a little birthday gift, because if I remember correctly, the freak with the silicon balance wheel came out in 2001. So we're around quarter of a century now. You've also passed that quarter of a century mark. Looking forward now for Uwerk, if I understand correctly, you don't have a core collection. All watches have been limited editions. Am I correct in stating that?
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C
Well, the thing is that we have our satellite watches that we, you know, the watches we began with the first two models, and then the 100 III and so on and so forth. And so we have since the very beginning, what we call our collection, you know, is actually the watches, the satellite watches. But also there, you know, every now and then we bring in a new model and an older one has to. Somehow has to be stopped. You know, in this sense. So it's. It's. All our watches are exclusive and in this sense, yeah, they are. I don't know, I could say that the collection is the satellite indications. Yeah, that's how we call it at least.
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A
Does the market either collectors or retailers request or I dare to say demand of you to make a core range that is always there and you don't have this FOMO of missing out. I'll give you an example. Fell head over heels in love with the UR100 magic team.
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C
Boom.
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A
Sold out. I couldn't get it. And then you came out with the V Ver, the green one. But I like the Pons souton grey one better. So I get stressed. So whenever you guys launch a watch, I know I need to. So it doesn't sell.
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C
That's right. That's the problem. But that's also the cool thing about it. So now we of course want to have this position of being the avant garde brand that's interesting for us because like this we can create new stuff. And that of course answers your questions a bit. If we would start to stay focused on one model only, the whole thing would have to be done differently. We'd have to produce more of that one or of that tighter collection. So that's not really what we are interested in. We of course love the fact that we don't have that many watches that we. And that in this sense that we can create some really extraordinary or crazy watches. And it's an equilibrium, I would say it's a situation that works for us. It can be depending on what you'd like. It can be a bit stressful. If you have to be first, you have to be. You have to know about what's happening with Urwerk and you have to be decisive. But I know that can be challenging a bit. But that's not a bad problem. I mean, if you can keep that position of people waiting for the next Urwerk watch to come out and to see what the cool thing is that Urwerk came up with now, then that's definitely something that we enjoy. This position of somehow being on the forefront of things and somehow come up with new ideas and things. If you have. And that's with how I would compare it. But of course that's a science fiction. If you look at other companies, there's actually a film that you have seen. I'm sure it is. You know, Ferrari against Ford. What's the title?
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A
And Enzo.
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C
No, no, no. It actually shows somehow the Ford guys, they somehow lost a bit their moto. So their cars are family cars and so on. They sell a lot of cars, right. But they don't win any prizes anymore in the race. And then they are like, hey, don't you have a cool car? What's that? And so they kicked out all the cool designers, all the cool test pilots, so to say, you know, and, and. And that's a bit the reason why, why they don't win prices anymore. And the whole thing is then juxtaposed or compared with Ferrari and Ferrari, you know, the cool Italian guys, you know, with the super cool, you know, red flashy cars and stuff, and they are just winning all the prices, you know, and then. And then Ford guys to get annoyed and they try to somehow catch up. And that's the story. But there you see, if you are a big company that can be very, you know, that can be a cool thing because you sell a lot of cars, you know, but you lose a. You might lose the mojo, you know, and that the question is, you know, what is more interesting,
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A
I have to put on the devil's advocate. Enzo Ferrari had to sell a stake to Ford because just being cool wasn't good enough. But you guys never had to sell out, as they say in America.
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C
Yes.
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A
How often were you on the brink that you said, oh my gosh, we might not make it financially?
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C
Actually never happened up to now at some point when we were just like three people at the very beginning of things. But that's how you start. But when you start and you're in this situation and you move away from that, then you also know how to do that. And that, I have to really say, is the big challenge that Felix was busy with also at the very beginning with Thomas. They had somehow to create that urwerko, the ur work, let's say system, you know. And yeah, so this is something. If you start from zero, everything is getting better, you see. So that's a bit the situation. And it did never change. So for us it is. And it's also the question is, you know, what's the motive? What's the motivation for what you're doing? If your idea is to grow and to just make a lot more money, that can be one way, you know, to be inspired. But the. Our. Our motivation truly is to create cool watches, you see. And in this sense, that's in the foreground. And so everything is actually then ordered to, to allow this. So we have to make fewer watches and, and you know, and are forced, though, to create new stuff every now and then. Yeah, that's what we enjoy that position.
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A
If we are reflecting back now, what mentor tips would you give to younger entrepreneurs, watchmakers, watch brands in current climate, and I dare say very volatile seas we are now navigating.
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C
I think in general, it is important that you somehow find your voice. You know, you have to somehow. So what do you want to, what do you want to somehow express with what you're doing? But I think that counts, like for, for, for everything. In the best case, this is something that you can, that you can pursue. You know, that you can express yourself. You know that that's. It doesn't matter if you're doing that making watches or making something else. If you do that right, people, they will learn about you, about what you're doing. And happily, in our case, that worked. But of course, if you have a different fate, then you would answer this question differently. But I say you have to be yourself and you have to find out what that is. That's already a task. And then you create your thing and, and, yeah, and follow that. And if you do too much of market research or if you have too much in mind to know what the world best needs, then. Maybe that's not successful. Yeah, but it's true. We didn't try it any differently. So that's our path. It's what I would suggest. It's just doesn't matter what times. So what's fascinating with time is that every moment in time is new. That's at least how we human beings can understand it. We have a past. Things happened already. A lot of things were already created. And that's interesting. And you have to somehow be inspired by that as much as possible that you can grasp and understand of what had happened. And then you have that somehow that you can do that projection into the future and you can imagine yourself to create something new. And that is possible because every moment that we are in that moment right now is another chance of doing it differently. It didn't happen before. That next moment didn't exist. So we are open and free to somehow do something differently. So this is something that is equally somehow counting for different generations, talking of
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A
different generations who inspire you or impress you in the watch industry today.
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C
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of watchmakers that do it differently, maybe to a certain degree, because we began with this Maybe there's already other watchmakers that did that before us for sure. But I think to a certain point we showed a bit that one can do it differently, that that's a path and that created a bit of a movement and that's still, you know, unfolding. And there's guys like, I'd say, for instance, Renaissance, for instance, a brand that I admire because they did so. And I saw Bernouard the first time explaining me, you know, how he puts the watches together in oil. Then I was like, okay, okay, I'm a fan. And then he also did, for instance, you know, he explained, you know, that he's using magnets in a watch. You know, because you have a membrane, you can't directly touch the parts because, you know, part is swimming in oil and stuff. So if you do things like this that are. When you tell that to a watchmaker, you know, he gets a heart attack when he hears this. Magnets in a watch and oil. Well, oil is okay, but swimming in oil. So all these things are amazing. So there's quite a few watchmakers that, in the best sense of the word, try something new, try to somehow express themselves with the means of the mechanical world. And I can say that real quick as a side. As a parent day, so to say, if you look at the most scientific or let's say, most sci fi symbol or object, the robot. When you look at the robot, robots. We imagine robots as a mechanical machine. It has joints, mechanical joints. It has somehow all the things that you see in a mechanical machine. It has, of course, a cool computer as well, but it's basically a copy of us human beings and in this sense an anachronism. And, well, if you compare with the plans of an Elon Musk or so. I'm not sure if you should follow that. I just recently heard that there should be more robots on planet Earth than human beings. I'm not sure if that's really something we need. But what I'm saying is the idea of the most futuristic thing, the robot is still a mechanical machine, right? So even the mechanical machine, even though it's an anachronism, is something that you can work with, you know, you can create new concepts with it. That's it.
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A
Now we're slowly going towards the end of the episode and I'm really thoroughly enjoying it. I want to switch gears. I want to play a little game with you, Martin.
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C
Okay?
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A
It's shotgun game. So this is not easy for you or I, because we are ramblers. We keep on talking I'm going to ask one thing and you can give only one answer. You can think as long as you want. Short answer.
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C
Okay.
- [44:08]
A
What is the best production car in design on the market right now that you can buy, in your humble opinion that you think is beautiful or innovative or new or cool?
- [44:25]
C
Right.
- [44:34]
A
I get bonus points. Rob, I got Martin. Quiet.
- [44:37]
C
Yeah, absolutely. Because it's not an easy question. That could be the cool car. The question is, of course, you know, design wise or otherwise.
- [44:56]
A
I'll give you. I'll give you a whole pass. You can say both.
- [44:59]
C
Okay, give me two. I have to answer like this because I was. Not that long ago I was asked to. And that was funny because I'm not a car designer, but I was asked to design the future car and I need to ask it like this because I can't now. I can't give you a straight answer. Which car is which one? But I designed the car. That is of course driven by its own power plant. So the car itself is a power plant. That's how I envisioned a future car car. That's the car I want to have. So you don't have to plug it in anywhere or don't have to, you know, tank gasoline. But it's driven by heat energy. Energy that you can find everywhere. It doesn't. The sun doesn't necessarily need to shine for that. Of course. It needs to shine because that's a source of energy. But it can also be like a, you know, like a rainy day. But you collect the energy and that's transformed via a skin of the car that can transform this heat energy into electric energy that then drives the car. Design wise, it looks a bit like a car that can be driven across country. It's kind of like a Mars Rover like looking object. That's the car I want to have. It doesn't exist just yet. It's a future car.
- [46:35]
A
My Dutch proudness pops up. You know who were the first to make ever solar car? It's the Tu Delft, the Technical University of Delft.
- [46:44]
C
That's perfect. Exactly. That's the line. That's the line.
- [46:48]
A
You ducked the question here. But because you designed one, I'll move on to the next one.
- [46:54]
C
Thanks.
- [46:54]
A
But maybe a little bonus thing. Let's talk about schools of design. So the Germans, then it was the Japanese. You talked about Ford. The American lost it a long time. What about the Koreans? Who do you think now is leading in in electric vehicles? The Chinese are dominating everyone. On the day that we're recording Elon Musk Announced that he's discontinuing the model S and X to create more production capacity for, I think, his robot called Optimus. Touching back on your robot topic.
- [47:30]
C
Right, right, right.
- [47:32]
A
Who do you think now are leading on the design side of things? Are the Korean crushing the world? The watch the car designers?
- [47:42]
C
Well, Korean, Korean. I say culture is fascinating to me. It is a. It's a culture that, like Japan after the second war was, and also after their war was, let's say, on the western side. At least half of the country. I have been there and I have seen that place. And it's an incredible transformation that they really undergone. So they have, I think, as the only other, almost the only Asian country, they've managed to, in a way, penetrate with the K pop wave, the Western world. And they were actually able to somehow bring something cool and cooler than the western stuff. So in many ways they are leading. I think they're a future country. They have a bit of a difficult situation because they sit next to their other side, the North Koreans, you know, and that's. I don't know how that's going to turn out in the future, but maybe that's also something that really pushes them. They are in design. They've developed a very fine design field, not only in the car world, but just in general. And they have a very old and fascinating culture. And it's actually the Koreans, when one looks at it, who later on went to Japan. So Japanese are actually Korean. They don't like to hear it, but that's a fact. So. No, but I see the Koreans as a really leading country in design. If you ask me for a particular car, I can't provide that. I don't know which one is better than the other. But just in general, I really admire Korean design. That's a fact.
- [49:55]
A
We switch gears. Best architect alive right now doing contemporary.
- [50:02]
C
These are very hard questions because, of course, there's a lot of different ones. But you want the short answer, right? I got that. Best architect alive. What can I say here? Oh, man, it's difficult, difficult to say. There's still some guys alive that did incredible stuff, you know, and. But to say now one that's really like an upcoming.
- [50:41]
A
And does it inspire you architecture in your watchmaking designs?
- [50:47]
C
No, absolutely no. No, I'm. I'm a big fan. This is something. Something very important to me. Chatty, maybe. Yeah. But difficult. Difficult.
- [51:05]
A
Do you think there is a. Is there a school? I mean, the Dutch used to rule a bit in the 90s and Ohas Omar. Yeah.
- [51:16]
C
Of course I'm a fan of R. Kas actually his SMLXL book, it's like something that. It's like a bible to me to be honest. R. Kaas is great, of course, but that's. That. That's a guy who's on. Is doing his thing already for a while. And there's other guys, of course. We have also some Swiss architects that are great. You know, there's quite a few that are super.
- [51:48]
A
Next one.
- [51:50]
C
Yeah.
- [51:50]
A
Art can't be a watchmaking artist. Art. Which artist do you want to give a shout out to? Rapid Fire Shoot names James Terrell.
- [52:05]
C
That's a grand old master that I admire. But I mean these are impossible to answer this question my friend, because I have to tell you, 20 or 100 at once because like the most fascinating artists right now, there's not a single person I can't say that I. Just one answer, one name, that's not possible. But if you ask me, I'm just thinking now about James Tirrell because he's an old guy and he did incredible stuff with his rotten crater. It is incredible time related space that he somehow was working on. I have seen his work at the very beginning of my artist life in the PS1. That's a museum in Long Island City in Queens. And I used to live in that place actually at some point. And that's also when I discovered, because that installation was already existing there, a space that he had created in there where you have a big rectangular opening in this feeling through which you see the sky. So you have inside of that space you have a bench where you can sit on and you can somehow there experience. Especially when, let's say when the night falls, you see how the light is changing. You see how the light inside of the space together with the light that comes through that hole, that abstract square, how that somehow transforms, you know, the light mood and it's. Yeah, it's like that was crazy to experience this. So he's definitely a master. But there's so many artists, I mean I have a friend of mine, Pipilo Tirist, she's a Swiss artist. She's of course somebody did incredible performances and video movies and stuff and. And let's say Fischli Wise for instance, a Swiss artist group, these two guys, they're really cool. Then my professor from art school, Roman Signer, that's a guy that I admire, we tried to somehow get him for an exhibition, but he's an old man already and he's not able to do that anymore. But he's definitely. He did some incredible stuff, you know, and glass exhibition Kronstaaf in Zurich was interesting. He showed some of his sculptures, always related to time because he does his artwork like this. He plans it, obviously. And then there's kind of an event, a performance, and afterwards you have the leftovers of the performance that are the objects for the exhibition. So it's like there's always this kind of time, you know, aspect to it that's fascinating. But, yeah, I mean, there's so many. So many. Cool. I could continue now. A bit easier for me than with, you know, with Korean cars. But,
- [55:24]
A
Martin, you've done a fantastic job. You've enlightened me. You've made my day. I thoroughly enjoyed it. If our dear listeners want a special episode where we run down 100 artists that Martin likes and inspires, send us a message. Martin, thank you so, so much for sitting down with us. I think we've broke a record in one episode. The longest answers and the longest pauses.
- [55:53]
C
Well, you asked me to think, you know, but it didn't really help that much, I have to say. So let me ask quick back. What would you say? What's the cool Korean car? Because then I learned something here.
- [56:05]
A
Quick. I've never resonated with them, but what really pushed my button was the Hyundai Ioniq 5, which remind me of Kitt K I T T. All right.
- [56:18]
C
Okay. I will check that.
- [56:19]
A
I said, wow, they're now coming to the scene. But, you know, our listeners are not here to listen to either Rob or I. If you ever want to be a guest host on our show, that's a plan. Please take mic. We've done it the first time during Geneva watch days where Josh Shapiro interviewed Praneet Singh Ming. That was a cool episode. So please come on as a host as well.
- [56:49]
C
Sounds good to me.
- [56:51]
A
Hereby confirmed and all our listeners are our witnesses. Thank you, Martin. Thank you, Diego, for taking the time to listen to this episode. You can find all our previous episodes on our official website, www.therealtimeshow and on Instagram, you can find us herealtime show. If you want to support the show, please subscribe, like rate and share it with your friends. If you have any questions, feedback and or criticism, please do send us a message. You can also DM us if you want to join the TRTS community on WhatsApp. You can find Scarlett on the gram via Carl in the Shire which is S C A R L I n T H E S I S H I R E David, you can find on Instagram at d a v a u c h e r Rob you can find at r o b n u d d s and me me. It's just my full name. A l o n b e n j o s e p h and if you prefer to send us an email, you can just add a first name to herealtime show like our IG handle. Stay sane and Keep on ticking. Sam.