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- [00:00]
Scarlett Baker
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Rob Knotts
Welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood watchmaker, Rob Knotts, and our humble rambler, Scarlett Baker. Both of us back from Geneva now in our respective home bases. You're over in London, right?
- [00:19]
Scarlett Baker
I am. I'm back.
- [00:21]
Rob Knotts
Back in business. And I'm in Copenhagen, which is kind of my default home now, it seems these days, even I don't technically live here. We are going to talk about what we saw at the PLEXPO in Geneva. We're going to dedicate this episode to watches and wonders and we're going to address the other activities that took place in Geneva on another show. Because there's a lot to talk about, there's a lot of novelties, there's a lot of discussion points. Scarlet, you were run off your feet all week. A week that started together in a fondue restaurant for our first annual TRTS Friends and Family Meetup. I don't know what we haven't got for it yet. What should we call it?
- [00:59]
Scarlett Baker
Have we got like a fan name for TRTS? TRTSs? I don't know.
- [01:04]
Rob Knotts
Yeah, that's something that we've had a few suggestions for. You know, way, way, way back in the day, this might have been. Before we even knew each other, there was this running joke about tractors in the. In the group. In fact, I think our banter channel is still called the Real Tractor Show.
- [01:19]
Scarlett Baker
Is that because DRTS without vowels is.
- [01:24]
Rob Knotts
It does look a bit like. It does look a bit like tractors. Now. I think it's just because we all have a shared love of tract tractors. It's one thing that binds us as well as watchers. So we could call them the Tractor Boys. Isn't that Ipswich Football Club and Girls? Yeah, true, true, true. Attractor folk.
- [01:41]
Scarlett Baker
So we had a lovely fondue with the tractor folk, which was great.
- [01:45]
Rob Knotts
That's not going to stick.
- [01:47]
Scarlett Baker
It was really nice to get everybody together and really feel the enthusiasm for what we're doing at the Real Time Show. So it was a great start to the week as well. And it was just on the cusp before it all got a little bit crazy.
- [02:00]
Rob Knotts
I feel it did get crazy, yeah. There was no chance for rest or respite throughout the week. In fact, we barely saw each other. Did we see. We saw each other once, right, for about five minutes when I came over to your High Style event at Sotheby's Area 51.
- [02:17]
Scarlett Baker
I know I was expecting a big reunion in the Grand Duke with you and Alon, but alas, it did not happen. But it was the typical watches and wonders sort of schedule of having about two hours sleep every night, but I wouldn't have it any other way. I mean, I would, I'd love more sleep, but, you know, you just, you, you just do it for that one week. But I actually went out early as well, so I ended up doing 10 days there all in all. So when I left at like 9pm on the Sunday night and got back to London, I sort of felt half Swiss by that point when I was leaving, but no complaints. It was, it was a really, really good watches and wonders this year.
- [02:52]
Rob Knotts
I felt I could not agree more. I was extremely underwhelmed by last year's show and I hope I didn't upset anybody with my rampant cynicism from 2024, but I meant it because I was absolutely deflated by very poor efforts, I thought, on the part of most brands and some absolute disasters. This year, however, I left buzzing. I was thrilled. There were lots of good things, some feel good stories, some excellent new additions to Rangers brands really coming back to form or like finally forming into the shape we knew they always could have if they really got everything right at once. And I guess we're going to touch on quite a lot of that as we go through. But given the fact that you spent an inordinate amount of time in Plexpo, far more than I did because I was mostly in the glass igloo outside Villa Sarasan for Time to Watchers, as you will all hear and get sick of hearing me say when I air all of the 42 interviews we recorded, Alan and I throughout the week. So, yeah, there's a lot to come, a lot of content to come, that's for sure. So stay tuned. We're going to start with you telling me where you want to begin your Plexpo recap.
- [04:03]
Scarlett Baker
Well, I feel it best to sort of give a top line first before we, we dig deep into, into the sort of highlights and standout moments. Because the one thing that I took away from this year's experience is there's no lying that the industry is, you know, not operating at its best right now in terms of figures. I think it's like 20% down we are this year. And I think because of that I've felt a real sense of willingness among brands to double down on their heritage. And, you know, we throw this phrase around a lot. Like, you know, every new launch is like, you know, craftsmanship, heritage, but brands actually really digging deep into their archives and finding models that collectors and enthusiasts really have loved and creating a product, that there was a real consumer demand and perhaps sometimes commercial demand for it. And that's not to say that brands were playing it safe to make sure that by the end of the financial year that, you know, they've made the sales and hit the targets to survive what is a pretty shitty year. But I felt that there was a real concerted effort to, yes, look back at those heritage and standout archive models and reissue them in an exciting way, but to really, like, push it and make it something really comfortable and not just have a reissue or a relaunch for the sake of having one to play a safe bet. And I think because of that, people got a lot more experimental with some of their pieces, you know, down to colorways, down to materials and even sizes. And some of the sort of top note trends I guess that I have taken away from it is that we've been banging on about how watches are getting smaller over the past couple of years. Brands have now proactively really listened to that and offered great solutions for people wanting smaller watches and for those with smaller wrists. But also a lot of focus on bracelets, which was really interesting, and people really making a strong effort to create something that. You know, we've spoken about this before, Rob, about a bracelet being an afterthought. And I didn't feel that this year. You know, I felt that people really were pushing to create something, something different. I also found that there was quite a lot of red dials and sort of burgundy dials, which was interesting because I feel like when you do look into the sort of language of color with watch dials, red seems to be one of the shades that people are a little bit scared of or shy away from. So it was nice to sort of see that full embrace. Yeah, I think. I think that would be my top line. So to dig into it a little bit deeper, there's a lot of brands I could talk about. So we're looking at 60 brands that were in Pal Expo. We had 54 last year, so already huge increase. And you really felt that? I felt that definitely in my feet, of my legs for doing 20,000 steps every day. Thank God for the smoking area so we could have a little bit of daylight. But, you know, it was huge. And the booths, I mean, it's always one of the most exciting things, yes, to see the watches, but to see how a brand actually frames them and tells the story around them by how they do their sort of visual merchandising and visual creation of the actual booth and Obviously, as a consumer, as a client, as press, that's the first thing you see when you walk into the space. So I think actually the first half an hour, I got there super early on the first day just so I could sort of do a couple of laps, suss out where everything was. Because, you know, even by the fifth day you're still looking at the map thinking, Christ, I've been walking in the wrong direction. Now I'm going to be five minutes late for the next appointment. But I actually started off my watches and wonders by having a bit of a LVMH day. So I had Zenith TAG Heuer and Hublot Kickstart the day. I have never seen so many Formula one cars outside of a Grand Prix. You know, it's a bit of a Formula one takeover this year, particularly for tag, obviously them now being the official timekeeper of Formula one again. And you know, I don't know if you saw this down, Rob, but yeah, I did.
- [08:21]
Rob Knotts
Yeah, yeah, like incredible.
- [08:23]
Scarlett Baker
It was epic. It was absolutely epic. And their execution this year of that was brilliant. I think they really, really nailed that. Like it was constantly like at least 50 people always stood outside taking photos, which was great. So I guess to start I'll go with TAG Heuer. So obviously last year we saw the reissue of the TAG Heuer Formula One watches from 1986, from when they first came out. And last year they were reissued in collaboration with kith. I know the sort of consensus. I loved that collaboration. I know perhaps KITH was maybe lost on some audiences and not seeing the connection. For me, I thought it was a great move in terms of bringing in new audiences, in terms of fashion audiences and those kind of interested in sort of streetwear, like hype kind of collections, things like that and these kind of sort of pop up retail experiences. I think that was a great move. But I'm glad that TAG dug a little bit deeper and brought out a new version again, I guess, and updated the sizing of it this time. So before we had 35ml. Oh wow. Just to confirm it, it's Sunday, it's nearly 7pm and I'm now calling watches millilitres instead of millimeters, millimeters to clarify, but really pushing their solar graph movement. And I think like the statistic of it is something nuts. It's like, you know, you charge it for like a minute or something crazy. No one quote me on this and then you get like 10 years worth of power, as it were. And I think it's really great that TAG are Actually pushing the, the solograph movement behind that and again extending their colorways, having certain ones that are part of the core collection, those that are limited editions in certain colorways to again like keep pushing that sort of exclusive feeling and. But you kind of don't really have to promote those watches. They promote themselves A from the fact that so many people knew, loved and owned these watches when they first came out in the 80s, but also for this sort of new vanguard of collectors that a want some kind of attachment to the Formula One world, want a great watch with a well known name on their wrist, but also has something that, you know, is a daily beta. It's very wearable, but it's also really punchy in its appearance. So I love them. I would definitely get a one. They are on my list. But there are quite a lot of other watches now on my list as well. So I don't think I'll be getting one anytime soon. But I just think, you know, strong start and making their point very clear. They have a great trajectory ahead of them with Formula One and it made sense for this, for them to continue that and do it as a solo feat rather than collaboration again then to stay within the sort of LVMH remit. One of the real standout watches for me, and it's a brand that I know of in terms of, I know its reputation for its movements and you know, the feats that it has achieved in terms of the monumental calibers it has created throughout horological history have been something that you know, any watch enthusiast knows about is Zenith. Now Zenith have never particularly I appreciated a Zenith, but I would never put a Zenith on my list as a watch that I would want to buy. I don't know why, there's just been some kind of say, disconnect for me. I really liked their Defy Skyline that they bought out last year, the reissue that they had. But again, not enough for me to kind of think, okay, I need to crack open the piggy bank and do something about this. But the one that I absolutely loved that they created this year was the Zenith gfg. GFG being in the initials of the founder. Oh, Zenith. But they're celebrating their 160th anniversary this year. This watch to me feels like a perfect homage to the past. It has this sort of vintage feel about her. And vintage watches are something I particularly love. And I just feel it's a watch that has so many layers of meaning to it that you have to sort of revisit it a few Times to notice. So to give some context to that, the outside dial ring, it has these sort of. You'll know the technical term for it here, Rob, but it has this brick pattern that's sort of. I don't know how it's achieved. You'll have to help me. But it has this brick pattern that goes around, sort of intersecting the numerals. And this is taking. It's paying tribute to the bricks that are actually used in the manufacturer. And you're probably thinking, oh, bricks. I don't. All bricks look the same. I thought this. And I've never visited the Zenith manufacturer yet. I would love to at some point and hope that opportunity might present itself one day. But the bricks that are on the outside of the building are really, really cool. They have these sort of intersection of horizontal and vertical lines alternating. And they've taken that and sort of replicated it on the dial, but also on the buckle as well. And these were the bricks chosen by the founders. So the fact that it all sort of links in very nicely and kind of poetically, I thought was really beautiful. The fact that you also have lapis and mother of pearl. So mother of pearl on the small seconds. A lapis on. On the. I'm gonna call it central dial.
- [14:13]
Rob Knotts
Yeah, I would definitely.
- [14:15]
Scarlett Baker
Okay, thank you. I thought that was a really nice touch. Not in a way where I felt like, oh, there's another brand, like, jumping into the. The sort of stone dial sort of. I don't want to call it hype, because that's not the right word, but this sort of riddles even then. Movement. No, but that's misleading.
- [14:35]
Rob Knotts
Yeah, I know. It's difficult. Resurgence, renaissance, ubiquity.
- [14:40]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah. This little Renaissance. Let's go. Renaissance of stonediles that we're having right now. It didn't feel like they were doing it for the sake of joining a bandwagon, you know, Zenith very much works within a color palette of blues, and you see that through their other launches this year with their ceramics that they've produced. But I just thought it was a really beautiful watch. It would make for a beautiful dress watch. And I think it was a really, really neat way to celebrate 160 years and the movement inside as well. Caliber 135s, as I'm educated by the press release from that side of things, is apparently momentous because it was discontinued, and they've now fiddled about with it, made it better, and brought it back to modern wrists. So I think it was a really, really great achievement for them. And discussing With a lot of other journalists as well. It has actually been one of the standout watches for a lot of people and kind of no one really saw it coming. And I love that from a brand. When they have the ability to make you feel like you know them and they just come up with something, you think, where the fuck did that come from? I love it. And it's really nice to feel surprised and feel surprised in a good way. And that's something that I definitely felt amongst other brands. I don't know if you saw the watch world, but it was, it was really beautiful on the wrist as well. It comes in strap and bracelet options. I tried on the. The leather strap and it was just. I really enjoyed it. Like there's no other way of saying it, really.
- [16:12]
Rob Knotts
I tell you what, you're absolutely right. It's very difficult for a brand, especially one as established as Zenith, to do something that comes out of left field like this and surprises everybody without really jarring them too much. You know, it feels like somehow it feels like a zenith, even though it's not like anything we've really seen from them recently. That chapter ring you're referring to is a guilloche pattern mimicking the bricks. But to go back to your top line and to mention the bracelet on this piece, the brick motif is continued there with a five link midsection of that bracelet, which again has these horizontal and vertical stripes. Now, in my opinion, although I love the effort there, they may have over egged it a little bit with this pattern because it pops up on the movement as well. And maybe that's a bit much. But what I really love about it is how the gfj, which stands for George Favre Jaco, I believe was the founder who said it. Yeah, that's almost presented as kind of a brand within a brand. And that's an interesting direction for Zen to go here. Like signing the dial so subtly beneath the Zenith wordmark and iconic star logo and then sticking the GFJ on the crown as well was a touch that I absolutely adore. And I love that crown, by the way. I love its diameter and I love the way it's slightly snuggled into the case band there and really beautifully sets off the whole watch. And everybody said the same thing. It was a surprise, but it was a real treat.
- [17:34]
Scarlett Baker
Also, just to add to that, I agree. I really liked the crown. It was no onion crown, but a great crown nevertheless.
- [17:41]
Rob Knotts
Oh, thank goodness for that. That would be a bit of an X rated start to this show, which we could probably sidestep but yeah, I think referencing your top line once again, the key word that I heard you utter there was listen. It feels like the brand have listened and we've, we've constantly complained about the fact that they don't seem to listen to us, the audience, the community, the journalists even. And this year there were so many things that manifested that we'd been talking about last year, like adding tangible value to products, giving the audience more choice without paralyzing them with too many options, being creative and yeah, focusing on things like bracelet design, dial materials and also new technologies. Because you mentioned, of course with the tag, the non mechanical tag, watches, how interesting that technology can be if it's given the right platform and enough pop.
- [18:38]
Scarlett Baker
Je gris.
- [18:40]
Rob Knotts
Je gris. Your French is really coming along perfectly. Thank you.
- [18:43]
Scarlett Baker
It's definitely not how you say it, but. No, I fully agree. And to add to your point there about having some kind of tangible relationship with a brand, I think that's something in times of, you know, difficulty and strife, which not to keep banging on about it, you know, we are in that at the moment. That's the time when as a brand you really want to double down on your audience in terms of, you know, making sure that you do hold on to those shared values. And you know, when things do pick up, that consumer is still there because they felt like they could still see themselves within the brand. They felt heard, they felt seen. Whether that's as a client, whether that's as a press, as a press, a journalist, a press person, as a journalist, whatever. You know, I think it's a time where you really do have to enrich your community. And I think that's something that there were certain brands that really stood out at doing that.
- [19:34]
Rob Knotts
The more I look at last year in the context of this year, the more it all makes a bit more sense. And this is true industry wide. Like last year felt to me like brands were kind of standing pat, clearing the shelves, batting down the hatches, taking zero risks, creating a bit of space for something to happen this year. And I think that most brands that were guilty of perhaps like taking the easy road last year or doing nothing have given us something now that shows, oh, there was a plan. It might not have been the most transparent or easiest to understand at the time, but there was something going on, some logic to the underwhelming showing of 2024. And then with a real practical example, of course, we've got the Bremont turnaround, which if you don't mind pivoting towards that for a little bit. I'd like to touch on it because I was vocally very critical of Bremont last year, to Bremont's face as well, which was awkward, but necessary, I think, because there's no point in being shown novelties and giving a presentation and going, oh, it's wonderful, it's lovely. I think you're going to do great. If you don't believe it, as a journalist, especially one that's got as much personal history with Bremont as I have, because you want them to do well, you want them to succeed. Like, it matters to me that these brands are seen in the best light and showing themselves in the best light, putting their best foot forward. And last year, the whole rebrand and the abandonment of, you know, the iconic triptych case, shall we say, that made Bremont what it was really was shocking to me. Shocking in a really negative way. This year, however, they've not just brought it back, they've improved it in ways I couldn't have imagined. The MB line, now known as the Altitude Meteor in some. For some reason. I'm not sure exactly why they needed to add the Meteor title to it, but it does distinguish it from the past. Of course. It's gorgeous. It's made out of titanium now it's slimmer, the crowns are bigger and got a really beautiful form to them. All of the componentry works really well. The internal bezel's got a much improved click on it. The prices have stayed pretty close in touch with the old prices, and there's a new Le Juupre movement visible through the open case back, which is nice. It's really nicely decorated. It looks great. It's something else that I haven't seen or really cared for from the brand before, but now I feel very, very, very compelled to buy. So that's brilliant. Okay. The story they had to try and push to kind of get away from what they understand now, it's been a bit of a misstep. Last year was, to us journalists especially, you know, quite clearly a reversal of. Of tack. But it's kind of not really the point when the product nails it so thoroughly as it did. And that really was. That was the watch of the fair for me. Even though it wasn't my favorite watch per se, it was the most impressive bit of brand awareness I've seen for a long time. And as you know, as difficult as it is to walk back last year's story, and they haven't walked it back entirely because the Terra Nova still exists and will likely continue to exist for a while longer, which I think is fine now, because it maybe has time to grow and develop and become its own thing within the Bremont catalog instead of being the Bremont catalog. I. I'm happy. I'm just. I'm just very satisfied by it, and I'm excited for the brand and hope that they are able to fly with this.
- [23:09]
Scarlett Baker
Absolutely. I mean, just speaking to the Martin Baker Altitude collection and going back to this point of brands, really listening. So I went to the Wing just a couple of weeks prior to watch the Wonders to go and see the new releases. And, you know, I had seen the Martin Baker line previously and sort of seen its evolution over the years. And there really was a sense that. That Davide had made sure that he was listening to. To the clients, you know, even down to the crowns, where the sort of customers saying that, you know, the crowns were a little bit too aggressive, like against their wrists, like against their shirt. That was something that they wanted to modify. And I find that the dolls are a lot cleaner and a bit more readable and legible for me. But the real sort of talking point for me with Bremont this year, and I'm really happy to see them go in this direction. I think, you know, they kind of appreciate that this collection isn't going to be for everybody, and I think that's okay that they're jumping hours across the two models. So the bronze one and the steel one with the black lacquer dial. When I first saw them, I was like, yes, yes, yes. Like, let me try it on. Gotta have it. Took a million photos, particularly the bronze. When I first saw it. I loved the bronze. I know people have made comparisons that this watch is similar to another brand, but heck, we can all make that from watch brand to watch brand. Like, I don't see the sort of value in dwelling on that point too much. But I think it's a really great effort from Bremont to appreciate that, yes, they have this intensely rich heritage of land, sea, sky. But you, you know, there are people that don't really give a shit about, you know, that side of things. And, you know, there's definitely a market. Actually, I'm going to rephrase that.
- [24:58]
Rob Knotts
I'm going to. I think it's absolutely on point that some people just don't give a shit about it.
- [25:03]
Scarlett Baker
Like, I don't really care about aviation in a watch. Like, it just doesn't really speak to me. And I see this, the jumping, our watches as A real push forward to reach a new consumer. To clarify that, I don't mean a consumer that doesn't care about watches and just wants to have something funky on their wrist. But, you know, there's something to be said about someone that's like, you know, I want a jumping out complication on my wrist. Like, you know, there's knowledge within that. And I think it's a really, really great way of broadening their palette. Not in a way where they lose their original consumers at all. Which is why I think they have worked so hard over the past year to reassure people and to guide them into their next chapters and to say, you know, we're not ridding ourselves of. Of our rich history and our rich audience that we have, you know, that they've built over so many decades. Is it decades? It is decades.
- [25:53]
Rob Knotts
Well, I suppose it's just just a couple, couple of decades. It is decades, technically. Can I just push back on this a little bit, though? Because it is a really interesting point. I'm going to challenge you slightly, but I don't think I'll. Not a challenge. You won't be able to overcome the watch. We're talking about it looking like I'll say it. I know you probably don't want to, but it's the Gucci grip, which is like, renowned for this particular case form and layout, which isn't identical to the Berent one at all. It just is reminiscent of it. And I think the reason why that is something people say, and you're right to say, yes, we can find a corollary for any watch in the industry. But when it comes to the really standout, unusual pieces, something like, for example, the Cartier Crash. When Berneron came out, people said, oh, it's like a crash, because it was the only reference point that they had like it. So I think that's why they. They're saying that. I get what you're saying about this being a watch that could appeal to a different audience. It may appeal to some existing Bremont customers, but for me, I don't think it is something that existing Bremont customers would want. But is it Bremont? I'm not saying it's a bad product. I'm not saying it's an unattractive watch. I think it's pretty cool. It's funky. I love the Gucci grip as well. I think they're both cool. But should a brand do that? Like, should a brand diversify its offering so much within its catalog in an attempt to pick up Customers, wherever the heck they can, that they lose the consistent threads, the aesthetic thread throughout the designs. What do you think about that?
- [27:20]
Scarlett Baker
Okay, I'll maybe be a bit more concise on my point. I don't think it's Bremont putting themselves in a position to go right. We need to go find, you know, another entourage of consumers from somewhere and sort of get the money from where we can. Um, I think this is just the beginnings of a collection and I think there's a story, a wider story to be told and unveiled here, and we're only being shown the start of it. But is that not the case when a brand starts any new line? Like, you know, there's, there's still an essence that, you know, it's the Terra Nova shape first and foremost. We're still at the early stages of the Terra Nova story. You know, we only saw it come to life last year. I think it's Bremont being a little bit more visually experimental and sort of testing things out and see how they go. And yeah, perhaps you're right. Typical Bremont consumers who have, you know, loved the collections over the past couple of years. This might not speak to them.
- [28:19]
Rob Knotts
I think you got, you've got a good point yet. Every new model family in its early stages will have some teething problems, take a while to be embraced. For example, we could point to some examples of successes and failures in terms of collection building. I'd say a great success. And it's a brand we'll talk about after this one, I suppose. Cartier. If you look at every single one of Cartier's model families, they all are quintessentially Cartier, even though they are different, sometimes significantly, sometimes marginally. But there's difference, but there's an, an aesthetic homogeny that binds them all together and makes them clearly on brand. My issue with, and this was my problem with the Terra Nova itself to begin with. I didn't feel that I'm just one guy, but I didn't feel that it felt particularly Bremont. It felt like it could easily have been a Hamilton. It felt like it could easily have been a Satina. Like it didn't seem to use the essential DNA of what made Bremont stand apart from those other military inspired field watch, aviation watch, diving watch brands. You know, it's a tool watch brand fundamentally. And that's where the problem with something like the jump hour comes in, because jump power is a complication that is not really something one would associate with a field watch or a Tool watch, a rugged, utilitarian piece of kit, effectively. I can see ways it could have been presented for it to be very mil spec, shall we say. But for me it was. It's a bit too nice. You know, the, you've got the, the steel case version with the black dial, which actually is my preference because I think that it, it looks a bit more characterful or more of its own thing. But maybe you could twist it and say, oh, it's the officer's watch. It's the watch that like the guy in, in the war room would be wearing rather than fly in the plane. But I didn't feel that. It felt like it was from that brand. And I guess that's my problem. Again, nothing to say against the product itself, which I think is quite a handsome looking thing. Both of the jump hours. I guess that's where I'm coming from.
- [30:32]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah, no, I hear you completely. And I think perhaps it's on us to let the story unfold a little more and wait for a few more chapters to be written to be able to understand the identity of this collection a little bit further. But to go back to your point about harnessing a brand's DNA when you're making a new collection, I think about my Cartier Roadster and how many people look at it and go, what the fuck were Cartier doing? Like, you know, so many, so many people hated the Roadster when it came out. And now when I wear it, you know, it's still a little bit polarizing, but a lot more people now I find saying, oh, it's actually quite cool. Like maybe this is one of those collections where there'll be more appreciation for it further down the line. And yeah, I don't know, I think that's, let's definitely keep the floor open on this one. But for me, I as field and told what tool watches go. It's not something that I particularly want to add to my collection and I have to turn over with the pink dial. And honestly, Robert is a watch I wear the most out of all the watches I have. And the amount of compliments I actually get on wearing this model compared to, you know, wearing my Roadster or something like that is actually unparalleled. You know, it's, it's a really good daily wear watch for me. And I think perhaps I'm too emotionally attached because I just love jumping hours. So maybe there's that reason behind it. But I think, you know, we're still watching Davide's sort of tenure unfold and seeing what he's bringing to a brand. And I think the one thing that he's shown over the past year is that he's really listened and he's really sort of making his stamp on a brand that does have. Yes. Albeit a short history, but a history that people are very, very devoted to. And we have to remember that each CEO, yes, they're continuing a story, but they also have to add their vision to it. And, you know, it's not always going to be for everybody. But I think the one thing that we take away from Paramount this year is that they lessened and. Yeah. And, you know, they also pushed themselves as well. They weren't just going to play it safe because people were so critical of them last year.
- [32:46]
Rob Knotts
And the good news is he's bought himself a lot of rope with this release. Right. I mean, last year people were saying, oh, my God, is he going to make it to another fair? Basically, because the response was pretty negative, like, around the world. Although they said they sold all the watches into retailers. I mean, we all know, we know what's in front of our eyes.
- [33:06]
Scarlett Baker
Right.
- [33:06]
Rob Knotts
You know, we see like, okay, this is. Maybe it's got teething problems. I gave an example. Sorry to cut you off there, but I don't want to get too far away from this point because it wasn't fair to give a good example rather than a bad example of collection building that I think actually justifies your position. I think it does. Tell me if I'm right or wrong, but order my P game.
- [33:27]
Scarlett Baker
Always will. Don't worry.
- [33:28]
Rob Knotts
Yeah, yeah, no doubt about that. So one of our PK, when they released the 1159, they were slammed.
- [33:35]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah.
- [33:36]
Rob Knotts
And I think that this is why, I guess is what you're saying, like, give the Terranova space to grow and breathe and then maybe it'll come of age, as it were, or mature. I think that when they did the Wandering Hours star wheel in the 1159, I was like, okay, all right, I get that now. That seems to be the piece that tells me the story of this collection much better than anything that came before it. And maybe for you, the jump hour is that in the Terranova or you. You own a Terranova already, so you didn't need convincing. But maybe for me, the piece that is going to finally get the turnover into my heart isn't yet there yet. But Davide done wonders with the altitude line. I want him to tackle the supermarine line next because I think that needs an overhaul.
- [34:19]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah.
- [34:19]
Rob Knotts
And then I think he should come back to the Terra Nova. And honestly, if I could do anything, I would somehow get him to make that a triptych as well. Just keep the case shape. Just drill out the fricking case band and make it a triptych case so that it fits with the other stuff. And then. Then I'm all in. Then I get it.
- [34:37]
Scarlett Baker
On the topic of new collections and people having a lot to say about them, we, of course must mention the one brand that has cues lining up for hours just for their tote bags on the. Which very much happened on the weekend when Watches and Wonders opened up to the public is, of course, Rolex. So they did a bit of a rogue move this year. They didn't release their launches at 9am, they released it at midnight, which sent all of us pressed into a pregnancy and already set us back on sleep from the beginning of the week. Which I thought was a very cool move from them, actually. Again, with this feeling of brands really.
- [35:19]
Rob Knotts
Surprising you this year, surprising you with their levels of contempt for journalists.
- [35:23]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah, exactly.
- [35:25]
Rob Knotts
Oh, you thought we didn't give a shit about you. We really don't.
- [35:29]
Scarlett Baker
And then I'm like, oh, where's my laptop? I'm in the pub. The fuck.
- [35:33]
Rob Knotts
To be fair, some of the best stuff you've ever written, you should always write seven pints deep.
- [35:39]
Scarlett Baker
I can neither confirm nor deny if I've ever done that. Yeah. Land Dweller.
- [35:45]
Rob Knotts
So dash name.
- [35:47]
Scarlett Baker
Thank you. Now, I'm tentatively saying this because I, you know what I'm like with criticism. Not shy from it. Not, you know, I will speak my mind, but only when I feel like there is something to be done about it, or my opinion actually adds something to the narrative. Sky Dweller. It sounds ambitious. It sounds, you know, hopeful. Yeah.
- [36:17]
Rob Knotts
Rockets. Exactly five. Yeah.
- [36:22]
Scarlett Baker
Land Dweller.
- [36:25]
Rob Knotts
Yeah, it's.
- [36:26]
Scarlett Baker
It might be a grower. I don't know, Bella.
- [36:31]
Rob Knotts
It's a funny one. You know what it's done. It's shone a light on the weirdness of the dweller. Now, Sky Dweller I like, because that was actually, I think Fortis had a sky dweller at one point, or there was a rocket named Sky Dweller, something along those lines. And that was Skylark. Oh, that's right. There's a rocket called Skylark. Fortis had a watch called the Skylark, or they wanted to make one and Rolex stop them, because no one was allowed to use the word sky in title of a watch, which is like, okay.
- [36:56]
Scarlett Baker
That's when you know you have power.
- [36:58]
Rob Knotts
Yeah, big time. So Sky Dweller. Yeah, Cool. Sea dweller. It. You can imagine, because dwelling, to me, it feels like sort of like sinking into something. So if you're sort of sinking into the sky, it's almost an inverse thing that you feel like you sort of go in higher and higher and higher, becoming one with the clouds. You sink it into the ocean. It's like you're dropping down to the bottom of it, to the darkest depths where all magical beasties reside. But if you sink it into the land, it's, like, covered in dirt.
- [37:24]
Scarlett Baker
That's what just like, you just use chilling. Chilling on land. Maybe, you know, maybe it is the true kind of daily wear watch. But, I mean, to me, the word dweller makes me think about contemplation. It's very ironic because we all kind of are sat here dwelling over this name and this new collection. But, you know, compared to the past couple of years, you know, we've had, like, celebration dials and crown shifts from left to right from Rolex. But this year, so this marked my third watches and wonders. This was the year that I had really felt the most noise about Rolex. And everyone really like, you know, fighting to the death and sticking their elbows out to get those embargoes early. I like it. I do actually like it. I prefer the white dial as opposed to the. We're calling it blue.
- [38:21]
Rob Knotts
Yeah. Even ice blue shade.
- [38:23]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah. Yeah. I agree that the dial is rather busy with the honeycomb with the numerals. You know, there is a lot going on, but I think it's interesting and obviously it's them joining this sort of, again, huge momentum of integrated sports watches kind of thing. I really like the bracelet. I think it's really cool. I think it's interesting to have flat for spy bling. Right?
- [38:51]
Rob Knotts
Yeah. I mean, it's basically a flat jubilee. I mean, it's basically an oyster quartz.
- [38:55]
Scarlett Baker
A squashed jubilee is what I'm gonna call it flattering. But no, I do really like it.
- [39:01]
Rob Knotts
Flat tube, flat jeep.
- [39:03]
Scarlett Baker
That's what it is from now. I would like to see it a little bit smaller. And I think that's something that we'll definitely see. I think we might see the dial become less busy in the coming years, given the feedback that everyone's sort of saying. Um, but I think it's a new collection and the fact that, as you already mentioned, the oyster quartz, you can definitely feel that sort of history there and the homage they're making with it, with the bracelet. I like it. I just perhaps how you feel about Bremont, it's all very raw. So I need to sit on it for a little bit longer.
- [39:40]
Rob Knotts
Yeah.
- [39:40]
Scarlett Baker
And see how this story is going to unfold.
- [39:43]
Rob Knotts
I do think they've thrown a kitchen sink at this one unnecessarily. So if it had been an Oyster Quartz reissue, I'd have put my money down already because I think the case and the bracelet are beautiful. Great. Fine. I am not against the explorer numerals. I mean, they're extremely high performing loom.
- [40:01]
Scarlett Baker
They're very big.
- [40:02]
Rob Knotts
They are big. But I do agree that, you know, it's too busy in a way. The honeycomb pattern itself. Let's not, let's not make any mistake here. This is an incredibly well machined product. It is a gorgeous thing. Well made, as you'd expect from Rolex, crisp as you like. The dial decoration is superb. But it just feels like it doesn't really have conviction in what it is yet. And.
- [40:27]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah, but everybody said that about the cubitus. And now everybody loves the cupitas.
- [40:31]
Rob Knotts
Does everybody love the cupitas? I've not met these everybody, but yeah.
- [40:36]
Scarlett Baker
That was a very big tonalization. But there are quite a lot of people. Sorry, everybody. There are a lot of people that I spoke with during Watches and Wonders, both press, client, retailer, the whole shebang. And there seemed to be a growing appreciation from it, particularly because they've made it a lot smaller. I think we just. It's shock and surprise. I think that I'm digesting right now. Um, I don't feel emotionally attached to it. I don't feel that I know its story well enough yet. But I'm open and willing to see where it goes. It's not like I'm not shutting the door on this collection, but there's a.
- [41:18]
Rob Knotts
Couple of weird things. I think the collection will be fine. I think the collection will actually soar when they just have some quiet gals in it. One of the tractor folk in WhatsApp group, the TRTS network group that you can join by letting us know if you'd like to be a member. By the way they mocked up. I can't remember who it was, so I apologize. It was. There's a lot of activity going on around the Rolex, but someone mocked up the Land Dweller, but just with a straight up black, like flat black dial. It was a slight pie pan, I think, with gold hands or whatever. And it looked incredible. If they just stuck any of the op dials into it, I think that it would look incredible. I think they've really tried to just blow Our socks off and eyeballs out of their sockets with something that's just totally wild. And one thing that gets me, and I don't know how I feel about it, is the open case back. That's a bit weird. Like, I get that they've got this new escapement technology that they want to display and push silicon.
- [42:14]
Scarlett Baker
Woo.
- [42:15]
Rob Knotts
Yeah. But yeah, so firstly, I don't get the point in that from Rolex because Rolex movements are already superb. Like they're just indestructible tractor calibers. No link intended. But the open case back on this one model, okay, it's a land dweller. So maybe it's like, oh, well, we don't take it in the sea, we don't take it in the sky. It's for the land, so it can have an open case back. But that is so on Rolex. Does this herald an era where Rolex starts opening up the case backs on everything?
- [42:41]
Scarlett Baker
No, no. I feel like, no.
- [42:44]
Rob Knotts
I mean, we saw the Daytona last year with that special edition, right? Or was it two years ago? I can't remember, but that was something. But then you thought, okay, well that's just such a small part of the collection. So limited. But this Land Dweller, although it's not like stupidly affordable, but it's, it's within touching distance for people that buy Rolexes anyway.
- [43:02]
Scarlett Baker
I feel like the main narrative around the launch though of the Land Dweller is the development and technology of the movement. Therefore it does make sense for them to have an open case back to reveal that. I don't, I don't know, maybe this is, maybe this is them moving more in that direction and listening to the consumers that are saying, you know, we want to have exhibition cases, exhibition case backs.
- [43:26]
Rob Knotts
Maybe it's an attempt to sort of get multiple like rebuyers in the collection. I mean, if you've got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Rolexes already, maybe feel like there's not enough newness to compel you to buy another one. Maybe this gives someone a reason to go back and add a second or third Rolex to the collection when previously they thought there was not enough differentiation between them. I don't know, but I just again, I find it a bit of an odd one. But I think it will settle and I think, I think this collection is probably going to be one for the long haul. But the name is still awkward. Have we got an alternative name that we could come up with for it? You think of anything. Dirt Dweller.
- [44:05]
Scarlett Baker
Dweller. The Rambler, to be fair. I mean ambler, not rambler.
- [44:15]
Rob Knotts
Well, ambler or rambler, I think. Yeah, I actually would prefer that. I think I'd say. Yeah, that's makes more sense to me.
- [44:23]
Scarlett Baker
Like it's something a bit more pastoral maybe. I don't know, you know, they're leaning into a nature thing here. We've got land, you've got honeycomb, the bees. I don't know.
- [44:32]
Rob Knotts
Yeah, yeah. I sometimes I find myself amazed. The things that get through, you know, think tanks, boardrooms, design consultancies and the stuff that doesn't. You know, Rolex has always been so strict about keeping itself within its own lane, like being so conservative and so reliable. And then you get something, a model like this, it's like. Yeah, honeycomb dial. Yeah. Massive Western Arabic neural. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's. Let's stick it in this old oyster quartz case and put this brand new movement technology inside it and then we'll give it a mad ass name because it fits with the other dwellers that we've got. I can't believe I never noticed. It never stuck out to me like a sore thumb that we had a sea dweller and a sky dweller. It didn't feel like Rolex's obsession with dwelling and now the land dweller, for some reason.
- [45:19]
Scarlett Baker
What is it that they. What are they dwelling on? What is the.
- [45:23]
Rob Knotts
I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's where they dwell, right? It's where they live. It's where they are, you know, part of the environment, I guess. Like, okay, yes, it dwells in the sea. It dwells. It's not. I don't think they're sitting around. I mean, we both have different feelings for. Right. Because I see it as like dwelling. To me it's not, it's not the same as like, oh, I live somewhere. If I feel someone dwells somewhere, I feel it gives me the impression that a sort of stewing in that spot.
- [45:45]
Scarlett Baker
To dwell there is to sort of be sedentary, you know. Yeah. You know, the duration is too long. You're sort of getting a bit complacent thing now. It's the kind of feeling I get from it. But I honestly, I feel like the power of a name for a watch is so important.
- [46:00]
Rob Knotts
Big time. That's the third time I said big time today on this episode. Jesus.
- [46:04]
Scarlett Baker
Big time.
- [46:05]
Rob Knotts
Big time. The big time show.
- [46:07]
Scarlett Baker
Well, I normally say like actually like 50 times, so I'm trying to do better at that. You did mention the Ops. Absolutely loved them, particularly the little baby ones. But the pistachio one. Gorgeous. Tried it on, Loved it. And you had about 20 seconds to have it on. Take a photo and it was a great 20 seconds. I felt very euphoric in that moment.
- [46:32]
Rob Knotts
Good to see Nomos inspiring Rolex doing with the PT4 collection. The Tetras from years ago. They had a matcha green, exactly the same color as this one. And then they had another one, a pink one. Can't remember what that one was called, but. Well, take that up with Nomos.
- [46:48]
Scarlett Baker
No, actually, I don't want to take them on, but congratulations to Nomos, though, because everybody was talking about them as well.
- [46:54]
Rob Knotts
Yeah, of course.
- [46:55]
Scarlett Baker
They did incredibly well. I would like to shift you over for a second to talk about Cartier.
- [47:05]
Rob Knotts
Yes, please.
- [47:06]
Scarlett Baker
Did you see Cartier?
- [47:09]
Rob Knotts
I did, but I didn't have much time with the watches, unfortunately. But I was. I mean, I think they were one of the brands that you could say potentially won the show.
- [47:18]
Scarlett Baker
I find myself every year naturally migrating towards pr. Oh. Oh, dear. Naturally migrating towards Cartier again, because I love the brand. It very much beats me, but I find that they just somehow get it right every year. Maybe that's because they bring out 70 bloody novelties every single time, so, you know, more ways of winning, but they just. They're very good at evolving, keeping the codes very much apparent, but also coming out with something that, again, you're like, where's that been? Like, what the hell is this? I have to speak the utmost love and regards for the yellow gold baignoire that they bought out. Yes. We've seen many iterations of the baignoire, and I actually really want to bring up Malaika Crawford from Hodinkee, who. She had put this forward as one of her favourite watches from the fair. And I totally agree with her. And the reason that I agree with her is because she says that it feels like the perfect execution of a woman's watch. And I know that we've spoken about this in depth before, Rob, and I've, you know, waxed lyrical about the cut and how I feel like it's a really great. A great fit, a great. Can't speak anymore. A great effort to really reach women's audiences in watchmaking and really appreciate the very taste with this model. I just thought it was amazing. Yes. You look at Cartier and it's a fusion of, you know, high jewelry and high watchmaking. But this watch was so fun for me because it was 46 brilliant cut diamonds achieved in this polka dot setting all across the bangle and on the Case as well with this beautiful champagne dial. When I did my appointment, there was two women in the room and four of the men and all the guys absolutely loved it. We were all trying on. It was really, really beautiful. And I feel like it's, you know, the Baignoire is a great collection in itself. As I say, there are many iterations of it. But this one I really felt was reflective of the mood, taste, desires of women at the moment. Yes, you could argue it has diamonds. Are we still going down the route of women only want diamonds? But they were executed in a way that wasn't just, oh, we're throwing in like a diamond set bezel here just to tick a box. It was painful, it was provocative, it was fun. I loved it. Now that obviously, of course, isn't the main highlight from Cartier this year. So for anybody that was in Geneva in the days leading up to the fair, they do this really interesting thing where they have these sort of adverts throughout the city revealing things about different brands. So Chanel, for instance, there said, it's not blue, it's. No, I've already ruined it. But it's not black, it's not white, it's blue the French way. And the Batizas from other brands. The one that really threw me was Cartiers because, you know, the Tanke quiche, the return of it was supposed to be this big kept secret. And then I arrive in Geneva on the Friday and I just see this sign of Cartier with aperture windows on a slant to get it technically correct. And I'm thinking, well, anybody that knows Cartier knows that when you see aperture windows like that on a dial, not really a dial, a case, rather knows it's the guiche. And I'm like, well, you've basically just told us now what you're about to do, like days before. So that kind of made me laugh and I just sort of went with it. But then when I saw the watches in the flesh, I loved them. I mean, I've never actually seen any of the vintage models. And you know, the Tankagishi originally first came out in, I think it was 1928. Cartier's been very, very good over the years at bringing back like very seminal archive models that people have grown to love again through pre owned, secondary, vintage market, whatever you want to call it. And I think they did an excellent job in bringing this back. The fact that they bought out four versions. So one that's limited edition in platinum and then the other three are yellow, gold, rose and platinum. Now I say platinum twice there, the limited edition one. You do have the aperture windows that are. Rob, what's the technical term to call this? Because I would say that it's landscape rather than portrait, how they've presented it.
- [51:59]
Rob Knotts
Yeah, I would agree with you there.
- [52:00]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah, yeah. Very layman's terms of saying it there, but it's sort of like aperture windows on a wonk, basically, is what I want to say. I thought it was really, really funky and Cartier just being like, we can throw what we want at the canvas and, you know, we know that you'll love it. And having the variation of the different metals as well, the. The yellow gold and the rose gold and the platinum, I thought was really, really beautiful. And they fit super great. They are a little bit expensive, I will say that. But again, the reception is such a unisex model. There are people that loved the originals, and I think, again, it opens up a new audience for people to see. You know, I talk to a lot of enthusiasts who are, you know, looking to buy their first watch and in their early 20s, wanting to spend, like the first big paycheck on a watch. And so many of them are like, oh, yeah, I really want the Panther, I really want the Santos, I really want the Tank. And beyond that, you know, without digging deep into Cartier's sort of archives and their entire glossary of models, there isn't a huge promotion for other Cartier products. You know, if I asked you to think of the most obvious Cartier, no doubt you would probably say to me, attack. So I think it's really great that they're bringing forward this, you know, really, really kind of ahead of its time collection from the 1920s and reviving it so that, you know, hopefully in a couple of years time, the next time someone says to me, oh, what should I buy for my first watch? If they have the funds, I would definitely be like, go and look at Tankaisha and see a little bit more of the playful side of Cartier as opposed to the classic traditional sort of daily wear and dress watches that everybody knows and loves from the brand. So I thought that was a really, really great, great year for them.
- [53:56]
Rob Knotts
It'd be one hell of a first watch for someone. I mean, they don't have a deal option available, so the entry point is like 47,000 US or something like that. Right.
- [54:04]
Scarlett Baker
I mean, my salary can't cut that. But maybe someone else has come for their first watch. I don't know, but it's a stunner.
- [54:11]
Rob Knotts
And I mean, it really Is an extremely versatile watch. Beautiful to wear in any scenario? Because I think the sizing means it's still.
- [54:21]
Scarlett Baker
But you don't think that's courtier in general, though? Like, there's no sort of set genre for where you wear their watches.
- [54:27]
Rob Knotts
No, no, I don't. Maybe as a woman, that's different. That's interesting, actually. I would. It wouldn't surprise me if it were different. But for men, generally speaking, a tank is an excellent choice as a dress watch. A tank, like with either like white gold or. Or steel is. Is fine for. For. Oh, sorry, hang on. Coffee machines going cleaning autumn. Yeah, well, takes forever as well. Gonna have to cut.
- [54:56]
Scarlett Baker
Sounds like a photocopy.
- [54:58]
Rob Knotts
I know it's very angry. So for a man, I would say, like, a tank is a great dress watch. Maybe in steel or white gold or platinum, something a bit more subtle. You could get away with it with jeans and a T shirt. Absolutely you could, but it's not. It doesn't feel in any way sporty. In any way sporty, as the Roman numerals also give it that extra classy vibe. But the thing with the tankagishe is that the closed surface of the platinum model in particular gives it this almost futuristic edge. Like, it's the most versatile tank for me because its proportions mean still a dress watch. It's. It's style means, yes, still a dress watch. But that style also echoes an edginess that the tank is just not known for at all. And I do mean that literally, because although the tank is probably seen often as like a very small little square, it's got a lot more curvature to it than people realize on the. On the case flanks. So I think it's super, super cool. I wish there were a steel one, honestly, because the entry point is really, really, really high. And if they ever did do a steel, I would guess that they'd have to stick it up somewhere like 30k just so that it wasn't cannibalizing the rest of the collection. And it would encourage people to buy up. But wow, what a looker. What an incredible result.
- [56:18]
Scarlett Baker
I'm intrigued to know if this kind of opens up the floor to further development of other very exciting tank iterations. So I would love to see the tank basculante. I'm saying with a terrible pronunciation, but I love that collection, particularly the one where you have the diamond set, letters of Cartier on the case. Could this be the beginning of Cartier returning to some of the more unconventional, lesser known models? I don't know. I Hope that it does kind of open up the floor to that a little bit more.
- [56:58]
Rob Knotts
At this point, I'd be amazed if the. Is it Basculante or Basculon? I don't know.
- [57:03]
Scarlett Baker
I'm say Basculante.
- [57:05]
Rob Knotts
Okay, we'll say Bascule.
- [57:06]
Scarlett Baker
You can say Disco Volante.
- [57:07]
Rob Knotts
So yeah, but if they got an accent on the Volante.
- [57:11]
Scarlett Baker
No, no, no.
- [57:13]
Rob Knotts
Maybe it was Italian mispronouncing that. Oh, right. Okay. All right. Sorry, Kate. So it's a French watch, but it's got an Italian name. Cool. I would be amazed if the Bascudente did not return. Now. It's just absolutely primed for that. And I'd buy one. I'd love to buy one.
- [57:31]
Scarlett Baker
But brands that surprised me. I would like to mention Moza, whether with their stoned out Endeavourpok sort of lined that they. They've brought out this year with variations of time only and with tourbillons, really, really punchy. And again, Moza, I really, really appreciate what they do. But is it the streamliner sort of hero connection would not something that I typically would wear on my wrist. But these models, I was like, oh, I definitely would love one of these and, and see myself wearing them. And this sort of fusion of two stones or the dial was really interesting with this sort of like central ring that they created. And also there was another model that they bought out. And I can't actually remember the name of it now, but obviously with Moza, they like to keep their. Their logos very discreet. And that's kind of the artfulness of. Of their dials that, you know, it's. The dial speaks for itself. Their name is sort of secondary to that. I love the continuation of that. And I think that's something that Moza do very well with how they. It's engraved into the dial. Right. Rather than the name. Yeah. I can't remember the model that they showed me, but there was one. It was sort of this purple. I'm pretty sure it was like.
- [59:02]
Rob Knotts
While you're thinking about that, I have two things.
- [59:04]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah.
- [59:05]
Rob Knotts
One, they look like Nomos's. Again, Nomos is just leading the markly. It's such a Nommos color palette. It's just mad. Someone's got spies in Glasseter. Someone's like sneaking around the train station. And second thing, you said you wouldn't wear a streamliner on the wrist. Where would you wear one?
- [59:27]
Scarlett Baker
Moving on.
- [59:29]
Rob Knotts
Okay. I thought you were gonna say like on a chain or on a pendant.
- [59:32]
Scarlett Baker
Attached to an arm bike. On my wrist. I would also like to give a honorable mention to Piaget for bringing out their new collection, which is the 60 collection, which is very much paying tribute to their swinging suture, the beautiful watch necklaces that they're very renowned for, and taking that trapezoid shape and translating that into a watch. And they have also been leaning into their very dexterous experience of using stone dolls. And that's something that they very much suggested that they're going to be continuing throughout the the 60 collection. So there was a very, very beautiful turquoise dial that they released. It was a lot smaller on the wrist that I than I actually thought it would be, but in a really chic way. And I think for a really sort of great hero woman's watch, it was really well executed and I think it would look great with sort of like stacked with. With jewelry as well. So I think that was a really great effort from them. Obviously their main talking point was Andy Warhol watches. And again, seeing new iterations of Sterndals come through there. There was a very beautiful tiger's eye model that they released, but also they had a opal dial which shot absolutely incredibly even on iPhone with blue sapphires going around all of the good dreams on the case. And then even on the case back, they had it as well, this sort of beautiful circle that followed. And that wasn't something I actually, I haven't experienced that in many watches. Maybe that's just me still being very new in my journey of, of horology. But to have the sapphires on the case back as well, you know, they were sort of tiny and if you'd have flipped it and flipped it back around in a second, you probably wouldn't have noticed them. But I thought it was a really, really nice, elegant touch to the watch there. I also want to give mentions to Richemont, jlc, Vacheron and Panerai. I will speed through this a little bit quickly. Vacheron, they released their Le Cabinotier solaria model, which is a piece unique. But I guess if it's. I think they sort of said if it's commissioned by other clients and they want to make their own touches to it, it's kind of an evolving saga. But they only have one. And just reading the repast release for this watch. So it's the world's most complicated wristwatch. I believe now it's 41 complications, because why the hell not? It's beefy for sure. But the one thing that I really liked about it is when I first saw the images Vacheron and the Le Carbine Collection, you know, looks very traditional. Very much kind of leans into the language of craftsmanship in watchmaking with this watch. That was the spirit inside it. But I thought it looked so sporty for what they were achieving. And that kind of really threw me in a great way. Like, you know, I could sort of see this watch on someone's wrist, and you'd look at it and kind of not even realize that this is now the world's most complicated watch. And I think that was down to the fact that they had this beautiful black dial with these inflections of. It's almost like a. Like a mint green and yellow and red on some of the hands. And I thought that they had this beautiful green stitching that went on the strap as well. I thought it was really, really, really great. And. But, yeah, going back to what I was saying about the press release, I've never learned so much in a press release than I have in my life from that one about learning about. I think it was like four different kinds of time that you can read on the watch, which was mental. I didn't even realize there were four different kinds of time. I really, really enjoyed that. And then jlc, the. The year of the Reverso for them, and the gold Milanese bracelet that they bought the Reverso out on, I thought that was really great and very much them acknowledging and again, coming back to this idea of listening to this huge vintage momentum that we're having. And one thing that I always wonder for modern watch brands is when you see this, like, massive uptake and resurgence of people becoming obsessed with vintage watches, how, as an existing and evolving modern watch brand, do you kind of not, you know, beat that audience? But, you know, vintage watches, by and large, are cheaper than a lot of modern watches. You can get a lot more for your money with them. But at the same time, you know, there are disadvantages to having a vintage watch on your wrist in terms of, like, you know, the reliability of getting a modern one. And please correct me if you think otherwise there, Rob, but I thought it was a really smart move from them to kind of pay attention to this feeling that we're having at the moment. And I felt that that really came through from the Milanese bracelet that they had with it and this sort of gold touch to Reverso. And it was a really nice, subtle tribute, I thought. And then acknowledging the mood of the industry, the mood of the collectors of the moment. And again, I only heard sort of high praise for this watch. And then to conclude the little richemont sector. I would also like to mention Panerai and I don't find myself often talking about Panerai typically. There was one Panerai model that I fell in love with when I first joined the industry four years ago and couldn't tell you much about it other than the fact that the numbers were all, the numerals were all diamond set. And I thought it was epic because it just looked like so not Panerai in a way. But I am finding more than ever this year that I'm hearing whispers of Panerai and people talking about it now more than ever and kind of doing a little bit of digging into this while we have watched brands this year presenting a lot of new models that are going down in size. Obviously when this becomes the mainstream thing and everything shifts in one direction, you then have these little pockets of people going, you know, doing the antithesis of that and kind of going against the grain. And I'm now finding that there's a lot of people wanting to go big again with watches and kind of missing that, you know, sort of 42 millimeter bulkiness on the wrist. And I think this could really be a great year for Panerai. And I felt that when I saw their Luminor perpetual calendar. Really, really, really enjoyed this watch. I didn't try it on, but I saw it outside of the gap of the glass box on a, on a stand, so it could sort of really get up close and personal with it. And I thought the sapphire dial that it had on it was really beautiful, executed brilliantly. And I just thought it gave a sense of dynamism to the perpetual calendar. And I really enjoyed that. And, you know, I found myself leaving this watches and wonders with their name in my head, thinking about them in a way that I perhaps didn't last year. And I'm intrigued to see sort of momentum that Panerai may or may not gain this year in people sort of relinquishing this trend of things going smaller again. And I know we ebb and flow between that all the time, but I think we could be in the early stages again of people wanting to upsize and go bigger again. And this is obviously, you know, they are the brand that speak to that. Hublot are also the brand that speak to that. So I think it could be an interesting couple of years ahead for them.
- [67:18]
Rob Knotts
Yeah, I think they set themselves up quite nicely with the release of the Luminor Dew collection, the smaller ones, just because it now feels like Panerai isn't stuck in its ways, it has responded with smaller models. But you're absolutely right. Like the real, the meat on that bone are the big pieces. Like if you want a big watch, you go to Panerai and Panerai has got you covered. So yeah, I've always loved them. I've only ever owned one Panerai. It wasn't a humongous one. It was a 1940 special edition Radiomir. It was gorgeous. I had to sell it at some point, unfortunately. But yeah, those mid sized models are extremely wearable and just cool as hell because Panerai's brand, that is very, very good at staying on brand and that's what I really respect.
- [68:05]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. If you'll permit me, I have three, three more mentions and then I will shut up.
- [68:14]
Rob Knotts
Absolutely. Go ahead.
- [68:16]
Scarlett Baker
So Ermes, as some of the listeners may know from previous episode I did with you, Rob, I went to town on the Cut and how much I loved it and would still talk about that forever. Kind of walked into this. Watches and Wonders and Hermes were very private and secretive for their launchers and there was, there was no knowing beforehand, which made it very exciting. But I walked into it knowing that because they just released the Cut last year, it made sense that we were going to see some kind of variation or new iteration of it because obviously launching a brand new collection, you don't just leave it as that. It obviously needs to evolve. So they released the with time suspended with that was in rose gold, the case with this sort of red sunburst dial. I thought that was really interesting. It was very difficult to shoot on my wrist just because of the lighting of the red was very difficult to capture. But really, really great to sort of see it manifest even more. And this idea of time suspended. Hermes actually did a really interesting activation the day before. Watches and Wonders. So they had an event where we met at this sort of unidentified location in Geneva. And we were all sort of picked up from our respective locations and taken to this location and we didn't know where we were going. This huge sort of townhouse in the center of Geneva. We sort of get taken to this library or having a couple of drinks and mingling and then we get told to go in this lift and we get taken down to the basement. And then all of a sudden basement doors open and there's just this LED cord. Long story short, we end up following 1.2km of white LED cord walking through the basement of this building that at the time we don't know what it is. And it Starts off, like, going through all sort of cleaning closets and things like that. Then all of a sudden, we sort of get to this, like. I can't think what the word is now. What's a mausoleum?
- [70:28]
Rob Knotts
A mausoleum is a place where people are buried, isn't it?
- [70:32]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah. No, it's not. Mausoleum. That's not the word. We're walking, like, 1.2 kilometers, following this white LED sort of rope thing. And then we come into this area which is sort of these cleaning closets. And then from there, we move forward into this underground museum where you've got these sort of stone statues with, like, bubble wrap around them, sat on these shelves. And it sort of no one really knew what was going on. And then the next minute you carry on walking, turn a corner, and then we'd get given some popcorn, and then we'd walk into this sort of cinema room from, like, the 80s, it felt where you just peer through this little glass window and you looked out into an actual cinema where there was a black and white film.
- [71:15]
Rob Knotts
Hang on a second. We had color film in the 80s.
- [71:20]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah, but it was a black and white film.
- [71:23]
Rob Knotts
I know. I'm Kobe.
- [71:26]
Scarlett Baker
Sit down. And then. Still don't know where we're going. Walking upstairs. And then all of a sudden, we come out into this, like, huge atrium. It turns out we're in a museum of art history. And we get led to this incredible hall where there's just everybody meeting and having some drinks and there's no watches revealed or anything like that. It's just a celebration of this experience. And it wasn't really until the other day that I realized that the concept of the watch. Time suspended. Time was very much suspended in this moment. Like, it was this kind of really interesting experience of not knowing and just kind of living in the moment and experiencing. And like, you had no idea where you were, no idea what the concept was. And I think the fact that there was sort of no big grand release behind it was a really interesting talking point and a great way to sort of, you know, it's a. An experience that I. We were all chatting about afterwards and in the days that followed, to be like, did you know what was going on? No, not really. Did you? But it's something that stays in your head. And I thought actually on refection, it was a really poetic way of them to lean into this concept of time suspended, which they have now incorporated on the new release of the Cut. And then just to briefly add to that, they also released a very, very cool brooch, a watch brooch called a mayon libre and they showcase it to us by fastening it to someone's cuff on their sleeve. And you've literally got a watch on you. Coolest thing ever.
- [72:54]
Rob Knotts
You know this event where you were led through the catacombs. Past the catacombs.
- [73:01]
Scarlett Baker
That's the word.
- [73:02]
Rob Knotts
Oh, is that what you were going for?
- [73:04]
Scarlett Baker
Yes. Thank you.
- [73:05]
Rob Knotts
You show me the video of it and it looks, it looks very unusual, exciting. A bit, A bit. What's the word? Not grotesque. It felt a bit creepy to watch, but out of space and time. I was wondering, because thinking back, I don't remember seeing any windows. Did you go past windows at all? Or were you always unaware of the world outside? Did they manage to keep you locked in?
- [73:34]
Scarlett Baker
It was only until the last couple of moments when we came out into this atrium that you were like, oh, I'm in a museum.
- [73:40]
Rob Knotts
Like, interesting.
- [73:41]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah. You're very much walking through the basement the entire time.
- [73:44]
Rob Knotts
I think that you're right, you're right. The experience, like the not revealing a watch at the end of all that is a ball, a move that is going to stick with you. I mean, probably for the rest of your life. Be one of the last watch reveals. That wasn't a reveal that you'll. You'll forget, I'm sure, because it's unlike anything else and it's just an immersive, totally immersive memory that they're giving you. Looked like an incredible evening.
- [74:11]
Scarlett Baker
It was, it was very bizarre to go to a inverted commas watch event and not see a watch. And there was, you know, sometimes people always say, oh, the most powerful thing you can do is turn up to a watch event and not have a watch on your wrist. It was sort of that kind of feeling. But, yeah, it was very much a moment of really looking at what your surroundings were and trying to examine this puzzle. And I think it was a really great way of. Because none of us knew what they were launching. We didn't know that the theme was going to be Le Temps Espondu. So the fact that I've only now just realized, two weeks later, the kind of overall mood behind it, I think, yeah, as you say, it's something that I won't forget Grand Seiko very quickly. I. They were one of my very last appointments and I always really like to go and see Grand Seiko. I think they're very good at doing what they do and I, I sometimes think they don't get enough noise about it. But their new spring drive model that they Bought out, which was very much their hero piece for Watches and Wonders. And I didn't really realize what it means for a watch to say that it has the accuracy of plus 20 seconds, plus minus 20 seconds per year. And it's only really been researching after that from Watches and Wonders that I realized the kudos that this watch has to be able to do that. Yeah, I really think that they are sort of. I don't like it when people say the sleepers of watches and Wonders because it sounds. I don't know, I think it's definitely one of the unsung heroes of watches and wonders. And I think Grand Seiko are very good, but they're very subtle in what they do. They very much lean into the pastoral world and they create these sort of beautiful icy dials. But I think there's definitely something to shout about there because that's an incredible achievement. But I think that's pretty much it. Rob. P.S. really love the Lange Odysseus Honey Gold. Loved that. Tried it on and now I'll shut up.
- [76:28]
Rob Knotts
Are you sure?
- [76:30]
Scarlett Baker
No, not always, but have you.
- [76:32]
Rob Knotts
Have you got anything else on your list? Come on, we're in for a penny. You might as well be in for a pound now. If there's anything else.
- [76:36]
Scarlett Baker
Oh, the Engineer iwc.
- [76:39]
Rob Knotts
Wow, you actually did have something else. Great. Go on, tell us about that. Where were you wearing this?
- [76:44]
Scarlett Baker
So I just came back from Goodwood. Members meet 82nd members meet yesterday with IWC. It was my first ever time at Goodwood and it was all in celebration of the F1 film created by Apple and IWC being the team sponsor of the fictional Grand Prix team and that with. With Brad Pitt and Damson Idris being stars of the show. So we went to go and celebrate that yesterday and I was able to wear an Engineer on my wrist for the day. Now I'd actually seen the Engineer models just before Watches and Wonders because they had a sort of pre experience in Milan. And I think at the time, because it was all very fleeting when I first tried them on, I didn't really get to be at one with the size of the watch and initially I'd. And migrated to the 35 mil. The gold one. Yeah, yeah, 35. And everyone was so excited about this one because, you know, the engineer with it being an integrated bracelet, it obviously does kind of wear a bit bigger, but I also think at the same time, because it is an integrated bracelet, you. I'm going to totally contradict myself now. It doesn't feel like 40 on my wrist. So I was wearing the steel model with the black dial and I had it on for about seven hours and I really struggled to give it back at the end. I absolutely loved it. And I would not typically look at the engineer or to be honest, like integrated bracelets and. But Rob, honestly, it just wore so well. Like, it also was that perfect ratio. I was saying to this, saying this to you a little bit earlier, but it had that perfect ratio of like feeling it on your wrist. Because I get a little bit like scared sometimes when a watch is almost too light and I'm thinking, oh fuck, I've lost it. And sometimes a watch can be too obtrusive and you know, that impacts the sort of experience of it and your comfort ultimately. But it just sat so perfectly on my wrist and I do have larger wrists, so I feel like, you know, the 40 would have been better for me than the 35, but I really loved it. And they've done a great job with maximizing this collection. You know, the hero one being black ceramic, but also the steel model with the sort of sage green dial. Keep saying sort of with the sage green dial, which was a sort of iteration created for Brad Pitt's character in the film based on a vintage one that he was wearing. And we were, you know, sort of all decked out with these engineers and just seeing how differently they sit on everybody's wrists was really fascinating to see. But you know, even people with really tiny, tiny wrists were trying it on and it still just looked great. So I really enjoyed that. And you know, it's. As a Formula one lover, it's great to see the year that the IWC have ahead for them, you know, with their involvement in the film and obviously having Brad Pitt in the film and having lots of lovely posters at PAL Expo of Brad Pitt. So they actually, they changed their sort of marketing approach halfway through the week. So the first half was all about the engineer and really focusing on form and technic. And then the second half was more towards Formula one. And so I arrived at like eight in the morning on day midweek and all of a sudden there's just this huge poster of Brad Pitt. I'm like, oh, that's a good start to the day. The day just got better. But yeah, I think they, they really doubled down on pushing the engineer further. And actually when we were in Milan, they brought out some really, really incredible archive pieces. And there was this tiny one with a baker like case that I'm just hoping one day that they reissue or I just go and buy that one.
- [80:48]
Rob Knotts
How much did that cost you on a secondary market?
- [80:51]
Scarlett Baker
I actually don't know. I didn't know the price of it, but it was beautiful. I'll send you a photo of it.
- [80:55]
Rob Knotts
Sounds like the sort of thing that has like one or two existing examples left in Systems Baker like case Tricky.
- [81:02]
Scarlett Baker
It was, it was gorgeous. And you know, with like the old school international watch company logo as well was the sort of cursive writing and got all really, really nice.
- [81:11]
Rob Knotts
I love that because it shouldn't fit on that dial. On the old engineer dials, it just shouldn't work. But it just, it's so technical. It just. It feels like it was a watchmate for scientists.
- [81:20]
Scarlett Baker
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, now, I promise that's it.
- [81:26]
Rob Knotts
If you have any questions for Scarlett or me about watches and wonders or any other events that we've been attending recently, then please do get in touch via the usual channels. You can find Scarlett on Instagram at scalintheshire. That's S c A r L I n T H e S H I R E I think I have to listen to that.
- [81:43]
Scarlett Baker
I didn't listen to that.
- [81:44]
Rob Knotts
I'm there. Obnudds R o b N u d d s considerately spelt where you can also be contacted via email, either Rob Alon or David Therealtime show via our contact form on the official website www.therealtime.show. as mentioned at the top of the show, we have a huge amount of content from last week that will be coming to your ears very soon in different formats and on different platforms as well. So stay tuned for more information on that front. We'll be back soon with more top quality watch content and interviews with the industry's finest. Until then, stay safe and keep on ticking.