← The Redefector
The Redefector
Meet the Team | Chapter 2
00:34:42
The CIA and FBI have less than 24 hours to prepare to welcome the KGB colonel who, in the defector world, appeared to be the catch of the century.
Loading summary
Transcript84 lines
- [00:00]
Julie Cohn
This is an ad for Roundup for Lawns. It kills weeds down to the root without harming your lawn. It works on crabgrass, dandelions, clover. It works on weeds with names you can't even pronounce. It's Roundup for Lawns. When used as directed, always read and.
- [00:14]
Dan Payne
Follow pesticide label directions.
- [00:16]
Uber Ad Voice
You know that feeling when someone shows up for you just when you need it most?
- [00:21]
Mike Rochford
Yeah.
- [00:21]
Uber Ad Voice
I mean, we all need that. That's what Uber's all about. Not just a ride or dinner at your door. It's how Uber helps you show up for the moments that matter. Because showing up can turn a tough day around or make a good one even better. Whatever it is, big or small, Uber is on the way. So you can be on yours. Uber on our way.
- [00:44]
Julie Cohn
This podcast is intended for mature audiences. Listener discretion is advised. Hey, guys, I want to just jump right back in, so let's make this catch up quick. It's 1985, and it's the year of the spy. The year of the spy.
- [01:14]
Mike Rochford
1985 would become known as the year of the spy.
- [01:18]
Julie Cohn
Soviet officers who were secretly helping to spy for the CIA. In other words, the CIA's Soviet assets had begun mysteriously disappearing, and it was making the agency nervous as hell. What was causing these losses? Had the enemy tapped CIA communications somewhere? Or worse, did the agency have a traitor in its midst? And just as they're trying to answer that question, in walked Colonel Vitaly Yurchenko, a senior KGB officer who had once worked in D.C. and was at that point overseeing all espionage in North America. Yurchenko said he wanted to switch allegiances and defect to America immediately. Oh, and he also mentioned that the CIA had a mole who had worked in the Soviet Eastern Europe division, or SE Division, which was the division where assets were disappearing. Here's Paul Redmond, the bow tie wearing, fluent in profanity, counterintel chief. You met last time when he volunteered.
- [02:18]
Colin Thompson
It was the greatest thing that ever happened to us.
- [02:21]
Dan Payne
Yurchenko's volunteering.
- [02:22]
Colin Thompson
This guy was in the embassy, in.
- [02:24]
Dan Payne
The residency in Washington. In line kr you must know a whole hell of a lot.
- [02:29]
Colin Thompson
He had been apparently in director at K in Moscow. He's going to be a gold mine. I mean, we were ecstatic.
- [02:36]
Julie Cohn
It was huge news for the CIA. Basically. Vitaly Archenko seemed to have located the leak, or so they thought, and quickly proven his worth. Within three hours of walking in, Yurchenko was being escorted out in a disguise to begin his immediate journey to America. The speed of his exfiltration was Dizzying. And the excitement back home was palpable. Okay, so that's where we left off in Rome. Meanwhile, back at home, back in Virginia, at CIA headquarters, there was an all hands on deck, high octane rush, because not only had a goldmine defector fallen into their laps, but it had all happened basically in the blink of an eye. The CIA and FBI would have less than 24 hours to prepare to welcome the KGB colonel, who in the defector world, appeared to be the catch of the century from Waveland. I'm Julie Cohn, and this is the Redefector. This is Chapter two. Meet the team. I'm about to introduce you to the insular team of CIA officers and FBI agents who got selected to join the Yurchenko task force. And it's crazy to be able to be doing that. These are people that I spent years just reading about. And to have been able to track them down and finally get them to talk about this crazy time felt like getting to meet the characters in your favorite book. You know, if those characters had mostly unlisted phone numbers, wouldn't answer your requests for over a year, lived across the country, and were hesitant to tell you much at all until you could prove yourself. Okay, so let's pick up where we left off. 1985. Stateside. Burton Gerber, head of the SE division, knew he had no time to waste and immediately notified the FBI. Then, along with his deputy, Milt Bearden, he'd need to select the lucky CIA officer that would be in charge of debriefing Yurchenko. The man he tapped for the job was someone we'll call Rick. Rick worked on the SE Division's counterintelligence desk, was well versed in the operations and assets that Yurchenko might talk about, and was one of the few there who spoke conversational Russian. This was already kind of a big year for Rick. He had recently received a promotion at work, and that very day, actually, August 1st, his divorce had just become final, and he was looking forward to marrying his new girlfriend. Being appointed the lead debriefer on this extremely high profile case was one of the biggest honors of his career thus far. Okay. Gerbert also quickly reached out to the folks in a department of the CIA, which back then was called Defector Resettlement. These are the folks who are in charge of getting defectors a new name, passport, and of helping them transition to a new life in America. A CIA psychologist from that department joined the team. Then, after some more thought, Gerber decided to appoint a second debriefer to help Rick.
- [05:51]
Reed Bros
My name is Colin Thompson. I am 88 years old, retired from the CIA. I had 28 years of the CIA as an operations officer. I had a good time, had a good life. Even though in that first day or so nobody had seen the cable except a few, that something big had happened. Everybody knew that the word was out there.
- [06:26]
Julie Cohn
We visited Colin in Maryland, just outside dc. We brought some chips and sandwiches with us and we got to chat with him in his home, the same home he had in 1985. It was decorated with art and little mementos from countries where he had lived and worked. Quiet symbols of a worldly, clandestine life. While Rick was a little dorky with figures and glasses, Colin was a strapping six 1,200 pounds. He had spent much of his early career at the Agency fighting the Vietnam War through covert operations all over Southeast Asia. He was tough, hard working and unafraid to tell it like it was. In 1985, he was 48, just one year younger than Vitaly Archenko. Paul Redmond was Colin's superior at the time.
- [07:15]
Colin Thompson
Colin was the best debriefer. He's a superb debriefer and a superb writer.
- [07:20]
Dan Payne
Blunt and acerbic.
- [07:21]
Colin Thompson
He would make me look like, you know, Mary Poppins and I loved him, but he was great.
- [07:27]
Julie Cohn
Burton Gerber told Colin the assignment was a big honor and would set him up for a promotion. In his time at the CIA, Colin had seen some things. He'd been through hell and back and he was excited to be tapped for this new role. The CIA's Office of Security was the department responsible for, among other things, providing a security detail. One of the security officers tapped for this honor was Dan Payne.
- [07:55]
Dan Payne
I'm Dan Payne, former CIA officer, got into CIA in 1984 with Vitaly Yurchenko. Was one of Vitaly Yurchenko's bodyguards.
- [08:07]
Julie Cohn
Dan has warm eyes and always seems on the brink of a grin. Though his star would later meteorically rise at the agency, back in 1985, Dan was barely 25 years old and had only been a bodyguard with the Agency for a year. He grew up on the south side of Chicago and remembers as a young boy that he would hang out in a nearby auto body shop listening to the veterans of World War II and Korea swapping stories about their time serving the country. He had still has a real sense of patriotism and was thrilled at the opportunity to be working at the CIA. He remembers getting the call for this job.
- [08:43]
Dan Payne
I was on the road doing something. We had pagers at the time. You know, and my pager went off, and the number that came up was for me to call my chief. I found the payphone, I called my chief, and he said, yeah, why don't you come in? We got something we need you to do. It was a great job. We got word that there was a significant defector in Rome. We had to pick him up at Andrews Air Force Base because he was coming in on a military flight. We had exactly one day to come up with an operational plan on how to get him from Andrews Air Force Base to a temporary safe house in Northern Virginia, where we would keep him and at least start debriefings. And then we would probably move him on someplace else, out of the Northern Virginia area. We didn't have a whole lot of time to sit and plan. This was a look, here's what we got to do. We had somebody, you know, working on a route in which we could do surveillance detection. We had a couple of people working on setting up some additional plans relative to what would have. What would do if we detected surveillance. And then we had people working the intricacies of the safe house and what kind of security we needed to set up at the safe house. And so all of this was, like, happening just like that.
- [10:15]
Julie Cohn
We've got two CIA debriefers, Rick and Colin, a psychologist from the Office of Defector Resettlement, and a full CIA security detail, including young Dan. It was a lot of moving pieces and coordination. Many of them didn't know, nor would they be told each other's real names. For security reasons, the guards would only use their first names, and the two debriefers, Rick and Colin, would use aliases.
- [10:41]
Dan Payne
So when we were getting briefed on the plan, on what we were going to do, we were to address all of ourselves by our first names. But the handler, all we knew him by was Phil and didn't know his true name.
- [10:59]
Julie Cohn
Phil was Rick. Now, while all these people were being appointed within the CIA, the same thing was happening across town at the FBI. The Bureau was especially interested in debriefing Yurchenko.
- [11:12]
Reed Bros
They were really anxious to talk to this guy. He had been the focal point in many ways for the efforts of the KGB against Americans in the Washington, D.C. area and throughout the country. So he was, for them, kind of the prime source. He knew who had been recruited, who the KGB had been targeting, and so forth. So this was the guy who would know the most.
- [11:40]
Julie Cohn
For that responsibility, the FBI tapped Reed Bros. And Mike Rochford.
- [11:46]
Colin Thompson
My name is Reed Bros. I was an agent In Washington field office.
- [11:52]
Julie Cohn
In all my research, Reid was always spoken about, but never seemed to be quoted. He was sort of this blurry question mark for me. And when he finally agreed to meet me in a conference room in Richmond, Virginia, I learned that it's because he hates press interviews. And by hates, I mean spent his entire life avoiding them. This is the first time Reid has been interviewed on the record at length, by a reporter. Reid was in a beach cottage in North Carolina, vacationing with his family when he got the news.
- [12:21]
Colin Thompson
A police officer came to the cottage and told me that I needed to contact the office. And that's when he told me to go to Norfolk office. He couldn't tell me anything over the COVID phone. Boom. I had to call the office, had to go to the office for him to tell me to come right away.
- [12:42]
Julie Cohn
They wouldn't tell Reed anything over an unsecured phone line.
- [12:45]
Dan Payne
But.
- [12:45]
Julie Cohn
But once he arrived in Norfolk, he learned the whole story. The reason the FBI had selected Reid was that five years before, when Vitaly Archenko had worked at the Soviet embassy in Washington, Reid had been in charge of his FBI file. The FBI kept careful tabs on every Soviet, quote, unquote, diplomat posted in America.
- [13:04]
Colin Thompson
I was the keeper of the file, so that's how I got picked to be, I guess. I don't know.
- [13:09]
Julie Cohn
Yurchenko's file wasn't huge, but it contained a few interesting facts. For one thing, the FBI knew of Yurchenko's affair with the wife of another Soviet diplomat. She was a charismatic pediatrician, and the FBI had recorded phone calls and surveillance notes of their affair. Her name was Valentyna Yaraskovskaya. And though no one knew it yet at the time, that love affair would soon resurface in a pretty big way. We'll talk about that later. Reid is a kind man who lives in Richmond with his wife of more than 50 years. He joined the bureau after he served in the Vietnam war, and by 1985, he'd been working for the FBI for more than 12 years, much of which was spent in foreign counterintelligence tracking down spies in Washington. Even after he relented and accepted an interview, Reid urged me to talk to his FBI partner, Mike Rochford. Mike, it turns out, was even harder to convince than Reed. He didn't respond to my emails or phone calls. But since I wasn't sure either one was even correct, I finally decided to call every man over the age of 50 named Michael, Mike, or M. Rochford in the United States until I finally Got a hold of him. By that time, I had spoken to enough of his colleagues, and the fact that I had spoken to Reid sealed the deal.
- [14:30]
Mike Rochford
So, I'm Mike Rochford, and I'm retired now. I spent 30 years in the FBI.
- [14:36]
Julie Cohn
Mike lives outside of Knoxville, Tennessee with a Labrador who thinks she's a lapdog. He played some college basketball. He's 63 and still broad shouldered. He started in the mailroom at the FBI and quickly rose through the ranks, learned Russian, became an agent, and spent 10 years in a KGB squad at the Washington field office before he later became the FBI unit chief for overseas espionage. Mike's a pretty big deal, and for as much of a hard ass as he was to get a hold of, the second we started talking, he was warm, affable. You just instantly wanted to get a beer with a guy. It's no wonder he's known for having recruited some of the Bureau's biggest Russian spies. My producer Jason and I planned to meet Mike in Knoxville, where a snowstorm had left him more or less snowed in. We waited for a thaw, then flew down. Was it really iced in like a couple days ago?
- [15:28]
Dan Payne
Yes, yes. How long have y'all been here? We just got here. Okay.
- [15:32]
Colin Thompson
Yeah, we were like an ice age.
- [15:34]
Dan Payne
Here a couple years ago. Went from that to a flood zone.
- [15:39]
Julie Cohn
Once we kicked the snow off our feet and sat down with Mike at our hotel, he brought us back to that hot summer night in August 1985. Though that first cable came in Thursday morning. By the time the CIA notified the FBI, who then contacted Mike about his new assignment, it was in the middle of the night, Friday morning.
- [16:00]
Mike Rochford
I get a call at like 3:00 in the morning. It's not usual for them to call me in the middle of the night. Don't forget, we didn't have cell phones then. We didn't have beepers. We didn't have any of that crap. So it was my home phone. And I thought somebody died or something, you know, And I didn't have caller ID or any of that crap. And I'm just going, almost be somebody in a family, probably in a hospital or something, you know, really serious, right? They called me, what the hell is this? And it's from First Pat Watson, who's a deputy assistant director of the Bureau, which is really weird, he shouldn't be calling me. And he goes, mike, you're going to be working with a great guy that I worked with at the agency, and his name's Phil. He's a great guy. Love him. So what are you talking about? He says, well, you're going to get a call from your supervisor. I didn't mean to call ahead of him. I said, well, it's 3:00 in the morning. He said, well, you'll find out. So then I get a call from John Weistonen, my supervisor, and he tells me same thing. He says, get out to Andrews Air Force Base. You and Reed are going to be working with the agency and debriefing this high level KGB officer that had volunteered in Italy. And they're flying him over in a. In a hotshot Air Force jet. And, you know, it's a big deal. Maybe one of the highest ranking KGB officers we've ever had.
- [17:23]
Julie Cohn
So I go, okay, okay, so at three in the morning, you get this call. And at what time do you have to be like, up and atom to be at the airport?
- [17:32]
Mike Rochford
Got to be at the airport by 5:00.
- [17:34]
Dan Payne
Whoa.
- [17:34]
Julie Cohn
And how far are you from the airport?
- [17:35]
Mike Rochford
About 90 minutes.
- [17:37]
Julie Cohn
Okay, and so you didn't really have any time to even, like, prepare for this debrief?
- [17:43]
Mike Rochford
Oh, shit, no. Grab the clothes, grab the gun, get the creds, comb the hair, take a shower maybe, and shave and then, boom, out the door.
- [17:53]
Julie Cohn
Meanwhile, Yurchenko had been taken from Rome to Sigonella, an American air base off the coast of Italy, then flown to Frankfurt, where he was loaded onto a large military transport flight and flown to Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. It was either a C141 or a C5A transport plane, depending on whom you ask. But either way, we're talking enough space for over 150 passengers. Empty, save for Vitaly, his guard, and the pilots. On the ground in Maryland early in the morning to receive him were dozens of guards, FBI agents, and CIA personnel who had been up late stalking the safe house, planning debriefing questions, rehearsing safety protocol, until there it was. Vitaly Yurchenko had made it, whisked from Italy out of his life as a Soviet colonel and brought here to America, where he was about to start a new life.
- [18:56]
Uber Ad Voice
You know that feeling when someone shows up for you just when you need it most?
- [19:01]
Mike Rochford
Yeah.
- [19:01]
Uber Ad Voice
I mean, we all need that. That's what Uber is all about. Not just a ride or dinner at your door. It's how Uber helps you show up for the moments that matter. Because showing up can turn a tough day around or make a good one even better. Whatever it is, big or small, Uber is on the way, so you can be on yours. Uber on Our way.
- [19:24]
Julie Cohn
Just in and so good. Thousands of spring fines up to 70% off are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. And that means thousands of fresh reasons to rack. How did I not know Rack has Adidas? Why do we rock? For the hottest deals, Save on madewell, Vince, Kate Spade, New York, Sam Edelman, Joe's, and more.
- [19:43]
BetterHelp Ad Voice
Great brands, great prices.
- [19:46]
Julie Cohn
That's why you rack. Milt Bearden remembers being at Andrews Air Force Base that morning.
- [19:55]
Colin Thompson
Well, I mean, the plane landed. You know, I was cleared in, and I drove out to a building out by the flight line where the aircraft could pull out.
- [20:06]
Julie Cohn
Soon, Vitaly Yurchenko was descending from the plane and entered the building where Milt was waiting in.
- [20:12]
Colin Thompson
They come into the building, a little shake hands. I feel a lot of energy in Yurchenko. He's at this moment, to me, kind of just bursting with energy. Later, as I thought it through, what I've done, what I'm going to do with these guys, what I'm going to tell them, how I deal with this thing in my life that's happened. That's. That's huge, massive thing that he's done now.
- [20:42]
Julie Cohn
Yurchenko's plane actually arrived an hour earlier than expected. This is Dan Payne again, Yurchenko's bodyguard.
- [20:50]
Dan Payne
We went to Andrew's. I was the driver of the. The main car. I got to Andrews Air Force Base with part of our team. The rest of the team was scattered out all over Northern Virginia in conjunction with the plan that we had made. When we got there, Phil was not there yet. Yurchenko was there. The FBI was there. We had some other CIA people who were there, but Phil, his handler, was not. So Phil showed up. He was probably about a half hour late, was somewhat disheveled. His hair was messed up. You know, his tie was crooked and kind of relaxed. Looked like he'd had a rough night.
- [21:33]
Julie Cohn
Remember that Rick Yurchenko's lead CIA debriefer was known to everyone else as Phil was using an alias. So for simplicity's sake, we're going to refer to him as Phil from here on out. Okay? Phil had been nervous to meet this defector. It was a big deal to be tapped to debrief someone of this caliber. Luckily, he quickly pulled it together.
- [21:54]
Dan Payne
We found out later on down the line that he had gotten drunk the night before and had a bit of a rough night. But he arrived all shook hands, introduced ourselves, and started getting into the cars. It was a little bit amusing because everybody wanted to be in the car that Yurchenko was In we started to. To go on and begin our surveillance detection routine, kind of. Remember, I had only been in the Agency. Now this is, you know, like a year and a half or something like that, to hear Phil say to Yurchenko, I welcome you to the United States on behalf of the President of the United States. You know, you just don't hear that kind of thing every day. I've never heard anything like that before, before. Presidents are not always aware, at least initially, when a defection takes place. This one was a big catch.
- [22:52]
Julie Cohn
What Phil had said appealed directly to Yurchenko's sense of dignity, worth, ego. It made him proud.
- [23:00]
Dan Payne
And then. So we launched our surveillance detection routine. And I can't go into detail, but there are things that you do to ensure that somebody is not following. You say the Soviets, the KGB had put two and two together, which I'm sure they did, and figured that the most likely, given that we have an air base in Italy, that the most likely venue for him to come in would have been through Andrews Air Force Base. They could have staked out Andrews Air Force Base and potentially potentially identified our vehicle coming out. So we had measures in place to test that, to see whether or not we were under surveillance, to see whether or not anybody was following us. And then we had another set of precautions in place that if we did detect it, there were things that would happen to ensure that it would stop right there.
- [24:05]
Julie Cohn
Meanwhile, in the car, Phil handed the Soviet a card with a message written in both Russian and English. This was standard procedure. The message said, if you have anything extremely important to tell us, which you would like to tell only to the Director of the Central Intelligence or some other senior US Government official, tell me now, and I will take you directly to him. As we know, the SE Division thought it might have a leak. And it seemed like the answer to that leak was Ed Howard, the mole Vitaly Yurchenko had revealed back in Rome when he first walked in. But if Yurchenko knew of another mole somewhere along the chain of command who was currently working at the CIA or FBI, he would only want to tell that information to someone at the highest level, lest it be intercepted by the traitor. Yurchenko understood the protocol, but said it wouldn't be necessary. Phil reported the answer in his debriefing notes. In some ways, it was a reassurance. Yurchenko, who oversaw espionage activities in the US didn't know of any mole in the CIA directly involved in his case. In other words, other than Edward Lee Howard, who had actually already been Fired. It seemed the SE Division was clean. Or if there was another CIA molecular. Either Yurchenko didn't know, or he was choosing to keep it a secret.
- [25:28]
BetterHelp Ad Voice
This is an ad by BetterHelp. Let's talk numbers in person. Therapy can cost anywhere from 100 to $250 per session, which adds up. But with BetterHelp online therapy, you can save on average up to 50% per session. Therapy should feel accessible, not like a luxury. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp has served over 5 million people globally and helps you fit therapy into your busy life. Your well being is worth it. Visit betterhelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp. H E L p.com.
- [26:01]
Dan Payne
We did what we had to do, but then eventually got to a safe house that was located in Northern Virginia, and it was a townhouse. And the way the townhouse was situated, it was like a street went into a square. So you had townhouses surrounding in a complete square. And so imagine four cars full of men in suits, all getting out at the same time and going into this one townhouse. And there was. There was some neighbors outside at the time. And the neighbors, like, stopped what they were doing and looked, and it was like, okay, this isn't really good.
- [26:48]
Julie Cohn
You know, it wasn't particularly subtle, especially not with the amount of suits entering and leaving the house. But it was in stock within 24 hours notice and would have to do until they could move him somewhere more permanent and more secure. For now, this was Yurchenko's home. Everyone remembered their first impressions of the hotly anticipated Colonel.
- [27:13]
Dan Payne
He was busy with his handlers, just trying to get settled. So initially, you know, there wasn't much said between us. You know, we were more concerned with what was going on outside the safe house because of the grand entrance that we made. And so we were watching carefully. And the FBI had a couple of cars in the parking lot with FBI agents in it that were also watching to make sure nothing was going on.
- [27:46]
Julie Cohn
Early on, for security reasons, the debriefing team would also stop calling Vitaly Yurchenko by his real name.
- [27:53]
Dan Payne
The first day when we got him into the safe house, we didn't want to call him. Nobody wants to call him by his true name, Vitale, because if you're. You never know who's around. Then you call him Vitale, and somebody may be in the know. So we asked him to pick a name that he wanted to use, and he chose Alexander. We called him Alex. And so that's how I knew Yurchenko. During the period of time, you know, that all this was going on, I knew him as Alex.
- [28:26]
Julie Cohn
When Mike Rochford, the FBI debriefer, was led into the safe house a bit later, he, too, remembered his first encounter with Alex.
- [28:34]
Mike Rochford
So, you know, I see him. It's funny. He's getting some water for his tea in the kitchen, and everybody else, all the big shots, went down the basement to talk about what he had already told him. So he's by himself in the kitchen. I go, hey. Hey, how are you? And I shake his hand. I say a couple words in Russian, my pigeon Russian, because at that time, I was not very good at Russian. I said, how are you? And I'm with the FBI. I'm going to be spend a lot of time with you. I said, you know, what do you like to do in your spare time? He said, I like to walk. I said, well, not in those shoes. I said, we'll get you some shoes. I'd like to read. And I said, well, we'll get you some books, too. So at this time, then I see this guy over in the kitchen, and he's kind of short hair, big ears, and he's looking at me like he's really pissed at me.
- [29:33]
Julie Cohn
Mike had immediately created a bond with Yurchenko, made him feel cared for, respected. And that's a real specialty of the FBI. Their research and training in behavioral analysis is so impressive. Mike did not create such an immediate bond with big ears, who happened to be Phil, the lead CIA debriefer. Quite the opposite.
- [29:56]
Mike Rochford
And then Yurchenko goes back. The guys come up from the basement, and they. They want to start the debriefing. And so Yurchenko goes into the dining room, and I'm supposed to come in with him. But as I'm going in, this guy Phil comes up to me, and he puts his finger up by. By my nose. And he starts yelling at me. He goes, hey, I'm Phil, and I'm with the CIA, and this is a CIA case, and you. You will never talk to him alone by yourself ever again. I'm thinking to myself, how many ways can I break his finger and stick it up his ass before I go back into the. Into the dining room? Because this guy's being an asshole. And I look at him, and I go. Just so you know, this is a joint operation. It will always be a joint operation. You're on the United States property. That's what we do here. Unless you want the bureau to take it over which we can, and I don't think you want that. I'll talk to him whenever I damn well please. See my boss. So he got pissed off.
- [31:01]
Julie Cohn
There was certainly a bumpy beginning between the CIA and FBI. Reid, Mike's FBI partner, also bristled up against the way the CIA was handling those critical early hours.
- [31:14]
Colin Thompson
I can still see it in my mind the first time when I walked in the door, there were maybe 5, 4, 5, 6 CIA in the kitchen celebrating. I mean, they had vodka toasting and this and that.
- [31:31]
Julie Cohn
Yurchenko and Mike were seated together in the sunken living room area.
- [31:35]
Colin Thompson
And when I went in, I went down and met him there. That's where I met him in the townhill. He was concerned at the time that, hey, you know, this is. This is not a good place.
- [31:47]
Julie Cohn
But I wanted to know what was Vitaly like? Who was he?
- [31:55]
Dan Payne
A tall guy? He was probably about six, two, maybe six, two, maybe a little taller than that. Probably average build. Spoke pretty good English because he had served a tour here in the US before. Started growing a mustache while he was. He didn't have a mustache at first. Growing that, you know, I guess he thought that might give him a little bit of COVID or whatever.
- [32:23]
Julie Cohn
I should mention here that later on, Yurchenko's prodigious handlebar mustache was the first thing anyone noticed about him. I've only seen a couple photos of Yurchenko without the mustache, and it's hard to recognize him. Everyone else I spoke to had no trouble describing Yurchenko physically. He was 49, with a warm smile. He had light blondish rust colored hair and blue eyes. He was trim and neatly dressed. Yurchenko, wrote author and historian David Weiss, was about as far as one could get from the stereotype of a KGB man. The squat, beetle browed Russian in an ill fitting suit who scowled at the world. Yurchenko, by contrast, could easily have passed for an American. He had lived in Washington for five years. In appearance, he would not have looked out of place, perhaps driving a van across the Pacific coast highway on his way to Malibu. But who was he? And there is where it gets tricky. Many people have described Yurchenko's deadpan sense of humor, but otherwise I found his personality and demeanor very hard to pin down. The author, Ronald Kessler, summarized it well. By mannerism and speech, he somehow managed to appear bold and swaggering, polite and deferential at the same time. And that's what I kept hearing, opposites at once. He had characteristic Soviet machismo attitudes towards masculinity but he was also a romantic. Some called him loony, rambling and nonsensical. Others described him as intelligent and circumspect. On the one hand, he had been intensely careful and strategic. He had, after all, played the perfect hand back in the embassy in Rome. And yet, the very reason he was at that embassy was because he had taken a giant, risky leap of faith in switching allegiances. On some level, we're all walking contradictions, and that's what it is to be human. But we are not all elite spies whose motives aren't clear and who have been trained for decades in deception. That question who was Vitaly Yurchenko really was? 1 I asked early on, not knowing I would spend years of my life struggling to answer it. Because there is something you need to know about Vitaly Yurchenko. After his plane taxied to a stop, after Vitaly came down the stairs and had his feet on the ground in America, he would only stay here for 90 days, and then he would disappear. Depending on whom you ask, this is either because Vitaly Archenko was a plant from the very beginning, sent to deceive U.S. intelligence services, or he was a real defector who felt America had betrayed him and drove him away. In the decades since, every detail, every interaction, every comment, every fact, starting from this day when he first lands, has been held up to a magnifying glass and examined over and over by members of the intelligence community. When I began this research, I had my own opinions about whether Yurchenko was a real defector or. But the deeper I looked, the more my head began to spin. At that particular moment in that safe house on that hot Virginia day, all people knew for sure is that Vitaly Yurchenko was nervous, excited, and determined to prove himself. More on that next time on the Redefector. The Redefector is a production of Waveland. I'm Julie Cohn and I wrote and created the series. Jason Hoke is the executive producer and he also produced and edited the series. Shane Freeman is our sound engineer. Additional production assistance provided by Leo Culp. Music by Robert Ellis. If you love the series, please make sure to leave a review and to tell a friend. Follow Waveland on Instagram @wavelandmedia for more information on this series and more. Thanks for listening.