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Alexandra Daddario
Exclusively on AMC and amc.
David McCloskey
There's a black cloud that hangs over our family.
Alexandra Daddario
Anne Rice's Mayfair Witches return.
Anne Rice
Slash is out there hunting Mayfair women.
Alexandra Daddario
You're gonna have a battle on your hands. Starring Alexandra Daddario.
David McCloskey
I'm gonna take care of it. Of him.
Alexandra Daddario
Surrender to the darkness.
David McCloskey
It's not a sin to kill the devil.
Alexandra Daddario
Anne Rice's Mayfair Witches Sundays Exclusively on AMC and amc. Plus.
Unnamed Character 1
Oh, sheet.
Unnamed Character 2
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Unnamed Character 1
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Unnamed Character 2
Oh, sheet.
Unnamed Character 1
That's what I'm saying.
Unnamed Character 2
And Arm and Hammer Power Sheets deliver an effective clean at a great price. Think of all the laundry we'll do.
Unnamed Character 1
And all the money we'll save.
David McCloskey
Oh, sheet, arm and hammer.
Unnamed Character 2
More power to you.
Alexandra Daddario
This episode is brought to you by Paramount. The new season of the Paramount original series School Spirits is here, but the mystery has only just begun. Maddie is still trapped in the afterlife. Now she must work together with her friends in the spirit and living worlds to find a way back before it's too late. Stream the new season of School Spirits now on paramount. Head to paramountplus.com to get started.
Gordon Carrera
Tolkachev would take the documents home and photograph them. When the case officer commented that this was dangerous, Tolkachev laughed and said, everything is dangerous. In a written note, Tolkachev explained further his unwillingness to accept an exfiltration plan. He wrote that he and his wife had some acquaintances who'd left the Soviet Union and eventually ended up in the United States. The woman in this family had subsequently written to Tolkachev's wife about how much she missed her homeland. Tolkachev said that his wife had commented that she could never leave Moscow, let alone the Soviet Union, because she would suffer too much nostalgia. Tolkachev said that given his situation, I cannot think about exfiltration, since I would never leave my family. Welcome to the Rest is classified. I'm Gordon Carrera.
David McCloskey
And I'm David McCloskey.
Gordon Carrera
And what you heard there comes from an official CIA study into the Tolkachev case, which was published in 2003. And we've been looking at this really extraordinary story about Adolf Tolkachev, an engineer, but who had access to incredibly important secrets from the Soviet Union about radar, which were valued so highly that he was known as the billion dollar spy because of the sheer significance of those details that he was passing to to the CIA. From the late 70s through into the early 80s, we've heard how he was a driven man, he was relentless. How he demanded suicide pills, but also Led Zeppelin records, amongst other things to keep him going. How he was being met on the streets of Moscow by CIA officers after taking hours of routes to make sure they were free of surveillance. And then we've come to this point in the early 80s where the pressure is starting to show on Tolkachev. And the sense that this can't go on much longer, I think is growing, isn't it?
David McCloskey
Well, and I think there's pressure, of course, from the KGB on the streets of Moscow. And there are also just, I think time and stress are kind of taking a toll on Adolf Tolkachev. It's 1983 now, Gordon, and Tolkachev, I.
Unnamed Character 3
Think he's getting older, right?
David McCloskey
A little bit, he's getting more tired. He used to be able to go.
Unnamed Character 3
To the Lenin Library in the evenings.
David McCloskey
To kind of write and continue his work. He's not doing that anymore.
Unnamed Character 3
He doesn't have the energy for it.
David McCloskey
He's had a few kind of flare ups of high blood pressure. She's asked the CIA for help getting medicine. And he is taking more and more risks to produce for CIA.
Unnamed Character 3
And he has been taking documents, of.
David McCloskey
Course, out of the institute for a long time. But he's started to kind of be.
Unnamed Character 3
A bit more brazen about it, right?
David McCloskey
Including he's actually pulled a ruse in which he told colleagues that a supervisor.
Unnamed Character 3
Had a document he checked out. But in fact, Tolkachev had taken the.
David McCloskey
Thing home to photograph it. And here you can kind of see this push and pull, this tension in the case, which to some degree is always present, but I think with time.
Unnamed Character 3
Has become more and more acute for.
David McCloskey
The CIA, which is the CIA desperately wants all of this information from Adolf.
Unnamed Character 3
Tolkachev, all of these photograph documents, they.
David McCloskey
Are so valuable to the Pentagon, to the American defense establishment, you know, and.
Unnamed Character 3
So the CIA kind of the requirements that they're passing him in this period, the questions they're asking him, you know, they want information on aircraft, for example, that don't fall under his institute's purview.
David McCloskey
And at the same time the Institute's security procedures have tightened. And yet they, they also want Tolkachev.
Unnamed Character 3
To be careful, to manage risk.
David McCloskey
And so you kind of have this.
Unnamed Character 3
Feeling, I think in this period, in.
David McCloskey
Kind of the early 80s, where a.
Unnamed Character 3
Lot of the mechanics of the case.
David McCloskey
Around money and compensation, you know, the.
Unnamed Character 3
Actual tradecraft and the commo plan, how.
David McCloskey
Do we meet, all that stuff has kind of been worked out. And yet you have the shadow over.
Unnamed Character 3
It, which is that at the end.
David McCloskey
Of the day, he is taking a.
Unnamed Character 3
Massive, massive risk in every document that.
David McCloskey
He photographs for the CIA. And the CIA, of course, you know, is also the wrestling with.
Unnamed Character 3
Well, with these new security procedures at the Institute.
David McCloskey
We need to give him some other cameras. He gets these kind of tropical cameras. We talked about those in the first.
Unnamed Character 3
Episode of the series.
David McCloskey
It's a smaller camera.
Unnamed Character 3
You could actually use it potentially at the Institute that start to take photographs in the office, which he had not been doing. And he doesn't really have any privacy at the Institute either.
David McCloskey
He's got a desk, a shared space with their employees. And so, you know, that's not going.
Unnamed Character 3
To help his blood pressure either.
Gordon Carrera
He's been doing this for, what, by 83, I mean, he first tried to contact them in, what, 77. So it's been about five years. I remember someone saying to me, no agent can keep going for more than 10, maybe, but under the situation, he's going at 5. Like, that is, is a lot. And I mean, even if you've got the best plan and you've got the most confidence in your handlers, you just think that the psychological strain on this must be extraordinary and, you know, you must end up at some point becoming somewhat paranoid. But he gets more nervous around this time, doesn't he? He gets more scared about what could be happening.
David McCloskey
So we're in April 1983. Tolkachev's boss at the Institute receives a phone call from the security office, which is known as the regiment, and he.
Unnamed Character 3
Is instructed to compile a list of.
David McCloskey
People with access to something called recognition system RLS 19, which is a piece.
Unnamed Character 3
Of tech that Tolkachev had passed sort of the information and schematics on to.
David McCloskey
The CIA just a month earlier in March.
Gordon Carrera
That's a disaster, isn't it? This is terrifying because you know that they think something has happened to these schematics. And Tolkachev knows he's passed it, so he must, at that point, think they're onto him.
Unnamed Character 3
He absolutely does.
David McCloskey
And in fact, the next day after he figures this out, the next morning, April 27, he says, I'm sick. I'm not going to be at work. He gathers all of his spy gear.
Unnamed Character 3
Which he had stashed in kind of that crawl space above his kitchen.
David McCloskey
So, cameras, all of the money, Gordon. And he goes to his dacha outside Moscow, burns everything in the stove except for the meeting schedule with CIA and the L Pill. Then he goes home, copies the meeting schedule, kind of using codes into a magazine. And then he burns the meeting schedule. Then on 28 April, Tolkachev takes the.
Unnamed Character 3
L pill and goes back into work at the Institute.
David McCloskey
He figures that if he's going to be arrested, it's going to happen in his boss's office. So he's sitting at his desk for most of that morning, working again.
Unnamed Character 3
He's in kind of a communal space, so there's people around. When he gets summoned into his boss's.
David McCloskey
Office, he slips the cyanide capsule under.
Unnamed Character 3
His tongue and goes in and holds.
David McCloskey
The meeting with his boss with the suicide pill in his mouth. Absolutely astounding.
Gordon Carrera
I mean, that is astounding. I mean, I think I'd be terrified. I just bite wrong bite by mistake, and suddenly you're dead. I mean, just to have it there in your mouth and to know that it's just one bite and you're dead. But you've got to be able to do that if they're going to arrest you. As we know from the way the KGB operate, they'll get their arms around you. You know, the heavies will come straight in the room. And you wouldn't have time, would you, to get it from your pocket or from wherever you've hidden it. So you've got to have it in your mouth, ready, just in case.
David McCloskey
And I'll admit, when I was doing the research for this episode, you know.
Unnamed Character 3
As a former management consultant, there were definitely meetings I had where I wished.
David McCloskey
I had had one of these.
Unnamed Character 3
So I felt some measure of envy for Adolf Tolkachev having having an out.
David McCloskey
In a meeting with his boss. We've all had bosses like this, you know.
Unnamed Character 1
Yeah.
Gordon Carrera
I don't know how many people have done that, though. I think that's kind of extreme.
David McCloskey
It's a little extreme.
Unnamed Character 3
On the extreme side, and this is.
David McCloskey
What'S wild, Gordon, is that for the next several days, he runs the same play.
Unnamed Character 3
So he brings the L pill, the.
David McCloskey
Suicide pill, to work every day, and.
Unnamed Character 3
Every time he is summoned into his boss's office, he slips the capsule under his tongue. So he decides from there on out that basically whenever he's meeting CIA or.
David McCloskey
He'S carrying documents out of work, he.
Unnamed Character 3
Is going to have the L pill on him.
David McCloskey
And what's going on here is that there is a broad KGB investigation underway.
Unnamed Character 3
However, it doesn't seem, over time, kind of figures out that it's not targeted explicitly at him.
David McCloskey
So, you know, there's more kind of spot checks by the KGB on who has documents and why There's, I think, more pressure, but it's not a direct pressure on him.
Unnamed Character 3
They're not looking for him. Right.
David McCloskey
There's kind of a general increase in.
Unnamed Character 3
The level of security.
David McCloskey
And what happens is that between April and November of 1983, Tolkachev starts to.
Unnamed Character 3
Miss meetings with CIA.
David McCloskey
He misses five meetings, which is rare for the case. And it's a combination of surveillance on.
Unnamed Character 3
The deep cover officers who are meeting.
David McCloskey
With him from the station and Tolkachev's wife inadvertently opening a small window on.
Unnamed Character 3
The outside of their apartment called the.
David McCloskey
Fortocka, which was the signal that he wanted to meet.
Unnamed Character 3
So his wife is opening this thing just to bring air into the apartment, and then also his wife and son are answering the phone when the CIA calls.
David McCloskey
And so you have this really bad.
Unnamed Character 3
Mix here, if you're Tolkachev and if.
David McCloskey
You'Re CIA, of no production, missed meetings, mistakes, and the terrifying reality that he feels that his life is, you know.
Unnamed Character 3
Under threat and that he needs to.
David McCloskey
Have the suicide pill in his mouth.
Unnamed Character 3
Whenever he's doing anything of importance in the case.
Gordon Carrera
And the CIA don't know about the investigation at this point because they've not met him, because they've not been able to have these meetings. They've missed all the meetings. So they don't even know that he's under that kind of intense pressure with that pill in his mouth.
David McCloskey
It continues basically until spring of 1984. Finally, Langley gets through. There's meetings, and the case officers, the station headquarters are of course, absolutely terrified.
Unnamed Character 3
By what's happened to him.
David McCloskey
But again, you see here this kind of tension, right, in the case of.
Unnamed Character 3
Well, they don't want him to stop producing stuff, right?
David McCloskey
So Tolkachev passes more film from the tropical cameras, pages of notes.
Unnamed Character 3
And what he's been doing in this.
David McCloskey
Period is it's much harder for him.
Unnamed Character 3
To take documents out of the Institute and photograph them on his lunch break.
David McCloskey
And so what he's been doing is.
Unnamed Character 3
Taking documents into a stall in the.
David McCloskey
Men'S room, putting them on kind of a shelf which has a little bit of light, and standing while photographing them.
Unnamed Character 3
Under the light of a small window. Right?
David McCloskey
And so Tolkachev says he wants another.
Unnamed Character 3
Pentax camera, which was his favorite method of photographing documents.
David McCloskey
And he had burned his old one out at the dacha when he thought.
Unnamed Character 3
The net was closing around him.
David McCloskey
Now, with the Titan security at the Institute, the CIA does not want to.
Unnamed Character 3
Give him the Pentax camera.
David McCloskey
It's much bigger than the Tropol one. And I love talking about a good Kryptonym, Gordon.
Unnamed Character 3
And in this period, Tolkachev's kryptonym changes.
David McCloskey
The CIA sometimes cycle them through from.
Unnamed Character 3
Sphere to Vanquish, and the digraph becomes gt, not ck. So GT confirms it as a Soviet case. And he is GT Vanquish.
Gordon Carrera
Good sign.
Unnamed Character 3
CIA cable traffic, a good name.
Gordon Carrera
Better than ck. Sphere. I prefer GT Van ZK Sphere. Yeah, it does sound like a car producer. Calum is saying, I think that's right. Maybe he drives a gt, a GT.
David McCloskey
Bank, a GT Vanquish around the streets of Moscow. So we get to 1985, which is an absolutely crucial year in this case.
Unnamed Character 3
There's more meetings. Kind of the business of the case is humming, even with the risk.
David McCloskey
And I will mention your Gordon, I.
Unnamed Character 3
Think it's a fascinating anecdote in this case is that of all the meetings.
David McCloskey
The CIA is going to hold with Adolf Tolkachev, they all take place within just a few miles of KGB headquarters at Lubianka.
Unnamed Character 3
Like, so all of this is happening.
David McCloskey
Basically within sight of the kgb.
Gordon Carrera
Must be kind of satisfying.
David McCloskey
It is. Again, it goes to that in the last episode, we talked about this sort of high that CIA officers get from, you know, conducting these meetings without surveillance.
Unnamed Character 3
And doing this all under the nose of the kgb. And I think for Tolkiev, it's probably very. A very similar dynamic of almost feeling godlike, like he is destroying the system from within, and they have no idea.
David McCloskey
That he's doing it. Now, Tolkachev is going to pass more.
Unnamed Character 3
Soviet military aviation plans for the 1990s, right?
David McCloskey
He's got another personal wish list, which.
Unnamed Character 3
Is he wants a rear defroster for his car. He wants a certain kind of French medicine. He asks for more albums and books on architecture for his son.
David McCloskey
Now, his son is. Interestingly, he's gotten married. But Tolkachev doesn't tell the CIA about this. And at this point in 1985, his.
Unnamed Character 3
Escrow balance is up to about $1.9 million.
David McCloskey
Again, he can kind of draw on.
Unnamed Character 3
That when he wants to.
David McCloskey
But as we said throughout this series.
Unnamed Character 3
The money is a way for him to feel respected and valued. He's not really keen to spend it. And in March, the CIA is going to put up a signal for a quick meeting. They want to pass him new light meters to use for the photography.
David McCloskey
Because some of the photos from the.
Unnamed Character 3
January haul didn't turn out, Tolkachev does not respond to the signal. The next week, the Moscow station sees a ready signal from Tolkachev. Which is again that small window.
David McCloskey
The Fortocka is open, but it's different.
Unnamed Character 3
From the Fortocka that's typically used for the signal.
David McCloskey
Tolkachev doesn't show for the meeting. There's an alternative meeting date for the.
Unnamed Character 3
End of March that had been worked out in the Kamo plan. That day comes and goes.
David McCloskey
No sign of Tolkachev.
Unnamed Character 3
Then on Wednesday 5th June 1985 is.
David McCloskey
The next planned meeting. The Fortocka this time it's the right one is open. But the case officer trying to go have the meeting has to abort because he's under surveillance. And then the weekend of the 8th and 9th of June, Tolkachev and his.
Unnamed Character 3
Wife go out to the dacha for.
David McCloskey
A nice summer weekend in the country.
Unnamed Character 3
And Tolkachev at that point, his next.
David McCloskey
Scheduled meeting with CIA is 13 June. Now, to get ready for this, the CIA is of course trying to lull the KGB in thinking nothing is up.
Unnamed Character 3
The Moscow chief of station has left.
David McCloskey
Moscow to travel in the Caucasus and.
Unnamed Character 3
Applied kind of in advance for permission.
David McCloskey
To travel to provided his itinerary. And the CIA had been kind of trying to talk to the. A lot of the officers have been trying to talk to the walls in their apartments, trying to hint to the KGB that June's going to be pretty slow operationally. Right. We're up to nothing. The station, in preparation for this, they pack an operational note, more cameras, pages of original material that tov and again gives you a sense of the risk.
Unnamed Character 3
Taking in this period.
David McCloskey
He had actually given the CIA original kind of documents that the CIA is now returning. He wants in this package there's 20 French drawing pens, two architecture books for.
Unnamed Character 3
His son, eight boxes of dental medicine. Tolkiev's teeth had been bothering him.
Gordon Carrera
I mean, I find this fascinating. Eight boxes of dental medicine, eight bottles of fluoride, eight tubes of toothpaste. I mean, that's the list of stuff that they're going to be handing over, amongst other things. And you just go, it's so kind of interesting, isn't it, as an insight as to what someone really wants and what they really care about. What you could get from the CIA and it's toothpaste and fluoride. I mean, it's such an ordinary thing. But I guess, you know, if you're worried about your teeth and they're hurting and you can't get it on the streets of Moscow, then that's what you want anyway.
David McCloskey
It's just.
Gordon Carrera
It's just a kind of real insight into the kind of the man.
David McCloskey
Somehow in the same vein, insight into the man, a book containing 250 pages of newspaper and magazine articles from the west, you know, so stuff he's not.
Unnamed Character 3
Readily able to read.
David McCloskey
In Moscow, the CIA will give him 100,000 rubles, which retort interest on his escrow account. And the beheads are so heavy that the case officer is worried that they're.
Unnamed Character 3
Actually going to break.
David McCloskey
Now, the Fortocka is open at the right hour, so the signal is that.
Unnamed Character 3
The meeting is on. And there is a deep cover case officer named Paul Stonebaugh who is going to set out with all this material in two bags.
David McCloskey
Now, Stonebaugh is kind of the new.
Unnamed Character 3
Handling officer at this point in 1985 for Adolf Tolkachev.
David McCloskey
He's a former FBI man.
Unnamed Character 3
He's a recovering Phoebe Gordon, you would.
David McCloskey
Say, who's found the lights and joined the Central Intelligence Agency. He's in his 30s.
Unnamed Character 3
And what has come out since is.
David McCloskey
That the KGB officers who are watching.
Unnamed Character 3
Him gave him the codename Narcisse, butchering.
David McCloskey
The Russian, which essentially means the handsome one. So he's a, a very handsome young man who's gotten out of the clutches.
Unnamed Character 3
Of the FBI and joined the CIA. And he is now headed out on a surveillance detection route to meet Adolf Tolkachev.
Gordon Carrera
I'm sure the people who did surveillance on you in the past also had a similar, a similar nickname for you, David, I'm sure.
David McCloskey
I'm still waiting for the Syrian intelligence documents to come out to figure out what my nickname was behind someone.
Gordon Carrera
That's what you're hoping anyway.
David McCloskey
So Stonebaugh out on his sdr, his surveillance detectioner. He's driven on the first leg by his wife. And then he proceeds on foot to the spot where he's going to meet Tolkachev. It's got a codename, Trubka pipe.
Unnamed Character 3
And the meeting is set for this.
David McCloskey
Spot with two payphones.
Unnamed Character 3
Stonebaugh is kind of walking around. Nothing looks unusual except there's a red.
David McCloskey
Haired woman speaking loudly on one of the payphones. And we should say, I think there's exceptional write up of this meeting in.
Unnamed Character 3
A book called the Main Enemy, written.
David McCloskey
By Milt Bearden and James Risen. And Milt Bearden was a former chief.
Unnamed Character 3
I believe, of the Soviet division at CIA.
Gordon Carrera
That scene of the red haired woman speaking loudly on the payphone, you can imagine in the movie, that's the moment where the camera kind of zooms in and the music kind of comes up and you're going like, is everything okay? Here or is something going wrong?
Unnamed Character 3
That is exactly what Paul Stonebaugh is.
David McCloskey
Trying to figure out.
Unnamed Character 3
So he sits alone on a bench in a trash strewn courtyard. There's kind of the overpowering smell of dog feces around.
David McCloskey
Everything is kind of identical to the.
Unnamed Character 3
Casing report the station had prepared, right?
David McCloskey
So someone had gone out there days.
Unnamed Character 3
Or weeks prior and kind of said.
David McCloskey
Here'S what this place feels like, looks like.
Unnamed Character 3
Everything looks normal.
David McCloskey
And he's kind of got a baseline for the environment he's walking into.
Unnamed Character 3
Now, there is one unusual thing here, which is that there is a large trailer parked on the street.
David McCloskey
It's got a hitch propped up on cinder blocks.
Unnamed Character 3
Stoneball looks at that and thinks it's strange.
David McCloskey
But he goes ahead with the meeting anyway. Now he's sitting there. He is, he's sipping water from a vodka bottle.
Unnamed Character 3
So he looks like a normal Soviet.
David McCloskey
Citizen sort of just drinking vodka on.
Unnamed Character 3
A bench while ing the day away. And he sees what he thinks is Tolkachev' parked a few hundred meters away.
David McCloskey
Now, at that point, Stoneball begins to walk past the phone booth. The redheaded woman pays him no attention. She's on her call. He turns toward the meeting point a few yards away. And then the world sort of blows.
Unnamed Character 3
Up around Paul Stonebaugh. Five plainclothes officers of the KGB jump from the COVID of kind of trees and brush nearby. Two of them grab his arms from behind. The other two snatch the bags from his hands. Fifth man forces his head down as the other guys hold his arms kind of up behind his back in what's.
David McCloskey
Known as the chicken wing, which is.
Unnamed Character 3
A very typical way that the KGB would see someone. It is exceptionally painful.
David McCloskey
Stoneball actually almost passes out from the pain.
Unnamed Character 3
The tailgate of that park trailer slams down. The guys that are hiding inside come running out.
David McCloskey
All these KGB guys. Stoneball is photographed. The whole area is photographed. Stoneball is stuffed into a van. His arms are sort of pinned back over the back of a seat for.
Unnamed Character 3
The ride into KGB headquarters.
David McCloskey
Again, Stoneball almost passes out. And when he's being questioned inside the.
Unnamed Character 3
Lubianka KGB headquarters, all the materials are, you know, from his pack for Tolkachev are all spread out on the table. The KGB kind of knew the time and date of the meeting.
David McCloskey
And Stonebaugh is in, in their grip.
Unnamed Character 3
Now, interestingly enough, there'd also been a, a sort of double, a Tolkachev lookalike.
David McCloskey
Carrying a book with a white cover.
Unnamed Character 3
That was the recognition signal, was that.
David McCloskey
Tolkachev would have that book. The KGB had Put that body double.
Unnamed Character 3
At the site where they'd arrested Stonebaugh. And the idea there being to make the CIA think that they nabbed Tolkachev.
David McCloskey
From like a tradecraft slip up, something like that.
Unnamed Character 3
There'd been a mistake on the streets and they'd paraded this body double away.
David McCloskey
But Stoneball had been, you know, sort.
Unnamed Character 3
Of, of course, taken violently and didn't notice. He never sees the double. And at this point, the CIA knows.
David McCloskey
That Tolkachev is done, they have been made and Tolkachev is in the grip of the kgb. But the CIA have absolutely no idea what's happened.
Gordon Carrera
So with that, with Tolkachev clearly blowed, with Paul Stonebar in the hands of the kgb, let's take a break and afterwards, when we come back, we'll find out what happened to Adolf Tolkachev.
David McCloskey
This episode is brought to you by.
Unnamed Character 3
Our friends at NordVPN. Now, Gordon, what do you find most useful about Nord?
Gordon Carrera
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David McCloskey
And you know how much I care about your privacy, Gordon. And you know that one feature from Nord that I really appreciate is that.
Unnamed Character 3
It also has offline protection, which works.
David McCloskey
Even when it is not connected, meaning.
Unnamed Character 3
You can be consistently secure.
Gordon Carrera
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Unnamed Character 1
Oh, shit.
Unnamed Character 2
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Unnamed Character 1
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Unnamed Character 2
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Unnamed Character 1
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Unnamed Character 2
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Unnamed Character 1
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Gordon Carrera
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Unnamed Character 2
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Anne Rice
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Gordon Carrera
Welcome back. We'd left the story of Adolf Tolkachev with the case officer Paul Stombar, who'd been out to meet him, captured by the KGB and taken to the labianca. And it being clear, David, that it was game over for Tolkachev after many years of providing valuable intelligence, the KGB were clearly onto him.
Unnamed Character 3
Well, and the CIA has absolutely no idea why. In the weeks and months afterward, the agency is desperately trying to answer that question.
David McCloskey
You know, so they look at how.
Unnamed Character 3
All of Tolkachev's reporting had been handled to see if maybe there had been a leak somewhere.
David McCloskey
But the group that's getting it is extremely small. And the CIA starts to wonder, well, maybe he was rolled up in this.
Unnamed Character 3
Security investigation that had begun at the institute where he worked in 1983. Had that kind of finally gotten to him? There was this very embarrassing bit that in 1984, three pages of the master copy of a top secret Tolkachev document were lost when they were sent to CIA's Printing and Photography shop and never found.
David McCloskey
So the CIA is wondering, could someone.
Unnamed Character 3
Have found those and sold them to Moscow and then Moscow sort of traced them back to Tolkajev and the Institute?
David McCloskey
You know, there are other things like.
Unnamed Character 3
Was his money spotted? Did he buy something out of character? And then that led the KGB to them? And the CIA has, has no idea.
David McCloskey
But what it does know is that.
Unnamed Character 3
Because the KGB knew precise time and.
David McCloskey
Place of that June meeting, that the.
Unnamed Character 3
KGB had discovered the materials given to.
David McCloskey
Tolkachev earlier that year that had included.
Unnamed Character 3
Meeting sites, operational notes, and the schedule for when they would meet. So the KGB must have had access to that.
David McCloskey
And Tolkachev, of course, is gone now. It is going to come out that.
Unnamed Character 3
It wasn't any of those things that did him in. It was not the security procedures. It was not his wife discovering money. It was not his spending habits. It was not the discovery of the Led Zeppelin albums that the CIA had given him. He was given up by a former CIA case officer named Edward Lee Howard, who'd actually been in the pipeline from Moscow and had been fired from the agency.
David McCloskey
And kind of these disgraceful circumstances, there's probably a whole separate pod we could do Gordon on Edward Lee Howard.
Unnamed Character 3
And it turns out it's the very.
David McCloskey
Last Moscow rule that was illustrative to.
Unnamed Character 3
Tolkachev's demise, and that is betrayal may come from within. And it was that simple.
David McCloskey
You have this sort of aggrieved agency.
Unnamed Character 3
Officer who sells out Tolkachev. Edward Lee Howard may not have known.
David McCloskey
Tolkachev's name, but he knew enough about.
Unnamed Character 3
Tolkachev to identify the case.
David McCloskey
And so Howard sells this information to the KGB for money. And eventually Howard's going to flee the US and become the only CIA officer.
Unnamed Character 3
Ever to defect to Moscow, and he'll die there in 2002.
Gordon Carrera
I'm sure we'll look at Edward Lee Howard's story in detail at a later point, but it first of all shows that actually the tradecraft in some ways, had been good on the streets of Moscow because they hadn't spotted him through following one of those embassy officers or through Tolkachev's own mistake and taken a spy or a traitor effectively within the CIA to find Tolkachev, which in some ways is a tribute to all the kind of work and the tradecraft. But it's also. I mean, it's a human tragedy for Tolkachev, but it's pretty bad for the CIA, isn't it? Is that you go to all that effort, investing in incredibly long surveillance routes in trying to protect your agent, and then he's blown because one of your own people betrays him. That's pretty bad, isn't it? And, I mean, I don't know how Tolkachev would feel about that and how he'd feel about it, but to me, it seems like a real tragedy.
Unnamed Character 3
Well, in the end, the Soviets found someone inside CIA who was willing to do the same thing that Tolkachev had done. I think it illuminates this old adage.
David McCloskey
Which is, you know, it takes a spy to catch a spy.
Unnamed Character 3
It is very hard when you're running the tradecraft appropriately, like CIA was with Tolkachev for years.
David McCloskey
And when you have an agent like Tolkachev who is, you know, willing to take risk, but mentally in the game.
Unnamed Character 3
Very precise, ideologically committed, very hard to find them. Right? Very hard to find them.
David McCloskey
And it took a betrayal inside, you know, CIA to bring it all to an end. And so here is, you know, what.
Unnamed Character 3
Happened to Tolkachev, because we had last.
David McCloskey
Seen him on his way to his.
Unnamed Character 3
Dacha with his wife on this fateful weekend of the 8th and 9th of June, 1985. And on their way home, Tolkachev and.
David McCloskey
His wife are stopped by what looks.
Unnamed Character 3
Like a police roadblock.
David McCloskey
And it is actually the KGB's seventh chief directorate, which is aided by a commando unit. And the details for this we have again from this Wonderful story inside.
Unnamed Character 3
Wonderful and tragic story inside.
David McCloskey
The book written by Milt Bearden and James Risen called the main enemy. And Tolkachev is asked by these KGB officers step out of the car. He's grabbed immediately jumped, he goes limp.
Unnamed Character 3
They pin his arms to his sides and force a thick rope between his teeth. And that is to prevent him from.
David McCloskey
Biting down in case he's got that.
Unnamed Character 3
L pill in his mouth.
David McCloskey
And you remember that agent we had talked about in the past episode who.
Unnamed Character 3
Had killed himself by biting into a pen. The KGB is intimately aware of this, so they're desperate to prevent this.
David McCloskey
So they've got that thick rope in.
Unnamed Character 3
Tolkachev's mouth so he can't get the.
David McCloskey
L pill in there. They strip off his jacket and shirt in case he's got a suicide pill on his collar.
Unnamed Character 3
They throw him into a windowless bus where he's stripped and cavity searched. And then they put him in a.
David McCloskey
Blue KGB running suit and they begin to interrogate him.
Unnamed Character 3
He confesses immediately. Taken to prison, taken to before to.
David McCloskey
Vo, which is a prison in Moscow, dates back to the days of Catherine.
Unnamed Character 3
But it's being used by the Soviets.
David McCloskey
As kind of the place where they hold political prisoners. And he's going to be sentenced to death for espionage by a three member military tribunal. Before his death, he gets 15 minutes with his son Oleg, where Tolkachev says he's sorry for what he's done. And Oleg, his son, says, no, no.
Unnamed Character 3
No, don't, don't say that. Don't say you're sorry.
David McCloskey
So Le Fortivau, which is where he.
Unnamed Character 3
Most likely meets his end, it is.
David McCloskey
Sort of a dark place.
Unnamed Character 3
It had been Stalin's premier shooting prison back in the days of the terror.
David McCloskey
And In September of 1986, Adolf Tolkachev gets led down one of these eerie kind of flat black corridors out of his cell. He's probably still in that blue prison running suit.
Unnamed Character 3
The laces would have been taken off all his shoes. You can't have any lengths of rope or sort of lace of any kind.
David McCloskey
Because they don't want you to strangle yourself.
Unnamed Character 3
And then he's led by the guards.
David McCloskey
They have, the guards there have these little wooden, kind of almost like crickets.
Unnamed Character 3
To click, click, click to communicate with.
David McCloskey
Each other, because prisoners inside Le Fort.
Unnamed Character 3
De Vaux won't be permitted to hear other people's voices. They don't want to hear the voices.
David McCloskey
Of the guards, the voices of other prisoners. And very weirdly, at Le Fortu Vaux, they have these boxes like, almost like.
Unnamed Character 3
Coffins, I guess, that are set against.
David McCloskey
The walls where as you're moving a.
Unnamed Character 3
Prisoner, you could put them in one of those boxes.
David McCloskey
If another set of guards approach with.
Unnamed Character 3
Another prisoner, so the two won't see each other, you know, inside the prison.
David McCloskey
So they might have put Tolkachev in one of those boxes, or another prisoner might have carried that burden. That day, Stolkachev gets led into a room, and, you know, again, these rooms, we don't exactly know how he met his end, but it is very likely.
Unnamed Character 3
Given the way that the KGB executed.
David McCloskey
Political prisoners in this era, that he was made to kneel, put up against a wall, and shot in the back of the neck for treason.
Gordon Carrera
What do you think is going through his head? I was thinking, as he's shot, do you think he regrets having done it? My sense is, with him, if this had been someone who'd been doing it for the money, then that moment, you would surely think, what have I done? But this was someone who wanted to damage the Soviet Union. And so perhaps would he at least felt he'd done that? I don't know. Or would he think, why did I do this? I don't know. It's interesting to try and work it out, and it goes to his motivation and his intensity. But that feeling of, you know, when he's saying sorry to his son, who obviously didn't know what had happened, I mean, it's very powerful. And it does lead you to kind of wonder how he felt about it at that moment, about his decision.
David McCloskey
Well, I think he's not apologizing to his son for the choices that he made. That's my sense, just my sense of the man. He's apologizing for what's happened, but he's not apologizing for what he's done. I think he was committed to the.
Unnamed Character 3
Destruction of this system.
David McCloskey
And as we saw from the conversation.
Unnamed Character 3
Around the suicide pill was very willing.
David McCloskey
To die in service of destroying the Soviet Union, playing whatever role he could in its demise. And so I think he probably. I mean, of course, there's all the, I'm sure, human emotions of being terrified as you're. You know. I mean, again, these rooms at Le Forte Vaux, they would have been used by Stalin's executioners during the 30s to.
Unnamed Character 3
Kill dozens or hundreds of people in a single night.
David McCloskey
So, you know, they've got these kind of, like, scuppers cut deep into seams.
Unnamed Character 3
Along the walls to facilitate cleanup with these, like, pressure hoses, because it would get so bloody and messy in these rooms.
David McCloskey
It's an inhumane, terrifying, brutal place to meet your end. And so I think he's.
Unnamed Character 3
He's terrified, but I think he's got to feel.
David McCloskey
Tolkachev has got to feel like he has succeeded in some way, like he has dealt an incredible blow to this system.
Unnamed Character 3
I don't think he's doing this for any kind of notoriety at all. Of course, he's doing all of it in secret.
David McCloskey
But I think he's got to feel like he's part of a project bigger than himself and that he's meeting an.
Unnamed Character 3
End that he was prepared to meet all along, which is his own death in service of that goal.
Gordon Carrera
So let's look a little as we close at the impact, because he was an extraordinarily important spy, wasn't he? He's not necessarily one of the most famous spies, but he is actually one of the most important ones that the CIA ran during the whole Cold War, I think it's fair to say, in terms of the kind of impact he had and the really valuable intelligence he passed.
Unnamed Character 3
I think we said when we kicked.
David McCloskey
Off this series that turns out that a really small number of human sources.
Unnamed Character 3
Tend to pay all the bills at CIA and other spy agencies.
David McCloskey
And I think the story does say.
Unnamed Character 3
Something which was true then and is still true today, even in a very.
David McCloskey
Very digital world, right. That well placed human sources are exceptionally.
Unnamed Character 3
Valuable and continue to be exceptionally valuable.
David McCloskey
For collecting really all kinds of information. But if you have a human in the right place, they can absolutely wreck.
Unnamed Character 3
A system from the inside out.
David McCloskey
Tolkachev alone compromised Soviet aviation platforms, aircraft, like into the 90s. He did that alone. Without him, the agency would have had none of this, and it would have.
Unnamed Character 3
Been impossible, especially in that era where.
David McCloskey
All this, you know, this stuff was paper for the most part. It would have been impossible to compromise.
Unnamed Character 3
All of that any other way. You needed someone like Tolkachev to get that information.
Gordon Carrera
And the value of that intelligence was that if there had been a war with the Soviet Union, it would have given the US a decisive advantage when it came to the kind of the war in the air, effectively.
David McCloskey
Yeah. I mean, Tolkiev essentially compromised Soviet aviation and radar that was being developed throughout the 1980s. And one way I think, to just.
Unnamed Character 3
See practically the impact that that had was, of course, the Soviet Union falls apart in the late 80s and early 90s.
David McCloskey
But in the 1990s, the United States.
Unnamed Character 3
Does fight a number of wars against former Soviet client states. Right.
David McCloskey
So you take the first Gulf War as an example.
Unnamed Character 3
The US shot down 39 enemy aircraft and didn't lose one.
David McCloskey
Sixteen of those kills involved missile shots.
Unnamed Character 3
Fired out of visual range of the enemy.
David McCloskey
So again, you know, the United States has superior technology and training, but that.
Unnamed Character 3
Was also aided by Tolkachev, right, who'd given the US Basically every scrap of possible intelligence available on the radars, the avionics, and the technical specs of the.
David McCloskey
Planes that we were fighting against.
Unnamed Character 3
And so it's the same story in Bosnia in 1995 and in Kosovo in 1999.
David McCloskey
And David Hoffman in his book has this incredible stat which is that the kill ratio for US aircraft are essentially enemy aircraft to US aircraft it was 6 to 1 in Korea. In the Vietnam War it was 2 to 1.
Unnamed Character 3
And by the wars of the 1990s.
David McCloskey
It was 48 to 0. And that was because Adolf Tolkachev had provided the United States with basically the radar blueprints for every Soviet fighter that.
Unnamed Character 3
Was manufactured in the 1980s, which is astounding.
Gordon Carrera
And I think that's what makes it so interesting as a case is that you can actually see the real world consequences, whether it's in US weapons design, US military plans, and even, as you said, in some of the small wars fought in the 90s, you can actually see the impact of the intelligence. It wasn't just something which kind of was passed to policymakers and helped them understand it. It's fascinating going back to this issue about human sources and their value. I do wonder if in the modern world though, a modern day spying operation, you could probably get a lot of that from a cyber espionage operation, couldn't you? Some of the plans and the designs, that's the kind of stuff you try and steal through cyberspace, rather than needing a human agent in those days. Totally. It wasn't stuff that was online. You know, you would need a person there to do what he did and photograph it. But these days, perhaps slightly less so.
David McCloskey
I guess the way I think about it, Gordon, is that I think if you thought about the different ints of.
Unnamed Character 3
The intelligence game, humint, Human Intelligence, Signals.
David McCloskey
Intelligence, sigint, I would wager that in a world where more and more information is digital, that the market share for Humint has gone down.
Unnamed Character 3
And for a whole bunch of reasons.
David McCloskey
Related to phones and cameras and sensors everywhere, it is harder and harder, which is maybe something we'll talk about too, which is that on the streets of Moscow today, the tradecraft we've just talked about has evolved, but it is still, especially with the right sources, exceptionally valuable. You think about what is the way to understand what Vladimir Putin is thinking.
Unnamed Character 3
It's a simple example, and it's a type of political intelligence, not the sort of thing that Tolkachev is collecting.
David McCloskey
But you probably cannot replace the value of having somebody who's closely connected to.
Unnamed Character 3
Putin, who can then tell the CIA.
David McCloskey
What he's saying, what he's thinking.
Unnamed Character 3
That is still really valuable.
David McCloskey
So I think it's a complicated picture, but the reality is that human intelligence, like Adolf Tolkachev provided, is still exceptionally valuable today.
Gordon Carrera
Yeah. Because the kind of information about what are Putin's intentions over Ukraine is probably held in a small group of conversations, not somewhere online. You can still do cyberspace. You're right, though, I think to raise that point that it's harder to run those kind of operations and do the human intelligence, because some of the challenges of kind of biometric surveillance cameras, a lot of surveillance cameras in Moscow. It must be harder, though. I did notice. I mean, it's an interesting story. Back in May 2013, so a good kind of 30 years after Tolkachev, you've got an FSB officer pulling the baseball cap off a dejected American diplomat on TV and revealing that he's wearing a poor quality blonde wig. And the FSB say that this third secretary at the US Embassy had been caught carrying a map, compass, cash, and a letter offering $100,000 up front and a million dollars a year to spy for America. And the recipient was told to go to a cafe and open up a Gmail account. So some of those kind of techniques that we saw in the Tolkachev operation are still clearly relevant. But it's also, in the last couple of years, we've had the CIA actually advertisements on telegram, which is used obviously extensively in Russia, in Russian, two Russian diplomats basically saying, if you feel like the direction of your country is wrong, we're open for business. You know, come and talk to us and get in touch with us, I think, you know, with instructions on how to do it on the dark Web. I find that fascinating because it suggests that some of the elements of Tolkachev are still in place, aren't they? You know, the idea that there might be people who are disillusioned with the direction of their country, a bit like Tolkachev was. And the CIA and MI6 have also said they're open for business for these people are still trying to find ways to contact them, even if there are some new ways over the dark web. So elements of that Tolkachev case have changed, but other elements are still very much there and very much still in play today.
Unnamed Character 3
Well, that's why I think these stories.
David McCloskey
Even though they come from a different.
Unnamed Character 3
Era, are so relevant.
David McCloskey
And it actually reminds me, Gordon, of the opening lines of and I bet.
Unnamed Character 3
This wasn't on your bingo card for this series. It reminds me of the opening of the Disney Peter Pan movie, which is it had all happened before and it'll all happen again.
David McCloskey
And the reality is that the CIA.
Unnamed Character 3
Desperately wants to know what's going on.
David McCloskey
In Moscow in sort of the clutches of Putin's system or the Soviet system.
Unnamed Character 3
We desperately want to steal those secrets.
David McCloskey
And so you have this sort of never ending battle between the CIA and the Russian security services over those secrets.
Unnamed Character 3
Right.
David McCloskey
And it was true in Tolkachev's day.
Unnamed Character 3
And it's just as true today.
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, some of the techniques may have changed, but the fundamental thing, finding those Russians who are disillusioned with their leadership and the regime in which they're living under and who want to supply secrets and working out then how to meet them, how to recruit them, how to keep running them and how to avoid them getting caught, that is still at the heart of the spying game. And so I think that's a great place to end this remarkable story of Adolf Tolkachev. I think one of the great Cold War spy stories that there is. So thanks for listening, Goodbye.
David McCloskey
We'll see you next time. There's a double agent, a mole working.
Unnamed Character 3
For Moscow inside the upper reaches of CIA.
David McCloskey
Hi, I'm David McCloskey, co host of the Rest Is Classified. And in my latest novel, the Seventh Floor, an operation gone wrong. Has CIA officer Artemus Proctor convinced there is a mole working for the Russians? But who is it?
Unnamed Character 3
To find the answer, she will have to dredge up her checkered past in service of CIA investigating a short list of her dearest friends and most cherished enemies.
David McCloskey
This is a story of modern day espionage tradecraft, a peek at the actual spy war between Washington and Moscow. And most of all, it's a story about what friendship means in a faithless business. The book is available now in hard copy and all good bookshops and also online in ebook and audio formats.
Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Classified - Episode 17: Crossing the Iron Curtain: Revenge in Russia (Ep 4)
Release Date: February 5, 2025
Hosts: David McCloskey & Gordon Corera
In Episode 17 of "The Rest Is Classified," hosts David McCloskey, a former CIA analyst and spy novelist, and Gordon Corera, a veteran security correspondent, delve into the riveting story of Adolf Tolkachev, a Soviet engineer whose espionage significantly impacted the Cold War dynamics. This episode meticulously unpacks Tolkachev's operations, the immense pressure he faced, his eventual betrayal, and the lasting legacy of his intelligence contributions.
Gordon Corera opens the episode by introducing Adolf Tolkachev, an engineer with access to critical Soviet radar secrets. Recognized as the "billion dollar spy," Tolkachev provided invaluable intelligence to the CIA from the late 1970s to the early 1980s. His relentless dedication and the significance of the information he supplied made him one of the most influential CIA assets during the Cold War.
Gordon Corera [02:24]: "Adolf Tolkachev was a driven man, relentless in his mission, providing secrets that were so valuable they were worth billions."
As the 1980s progressed, the immense pressure on Tolkachev began to take a toll. Balancing his espionage activities with personal life became increasingly challenging. Health issues, such as high blood pressure, compounded the stress, leading Tolkachev to take greater risks in his operations.
David McCloskey [03:37]: "Time and stress are kind of taking a toll on Adolf Tolkachev."
The CIA's need for more detailed intelligence, including information beyond his institute's purview, added to his burden. Simultaneously, tightening security at his workplace heightened the risks associated with his espionage activities.
Tolkachev's tradecraft evolved as he navigated heightened KGB scrutiny. He employed innovative methods, such as using tropical cameras for document photography and coding his meeting schedules into magazines. Despite these precautions, the constant threat of detection loomed large.
Gordon Corera [05:05]: "He is taking a massive risk in every document that he photographs for the CIA."
The CIA struggled to balance the need for more intelligence with the imperative of ensuring Tolkachev's safety, leading to internal tensions within the agency.
A pivotal moment in Tolkachev's story was the betrayal by former CIA case officer Edward Lee Howard. Howard, disgruntled and seeking personal gain, sold crucial information to the KGB, unknowingly leading them to Tolkachev. This act of internal betrayal underscored the vulnerabilities within espionage operations and ultimately led to the collapse of one of the CIA's most valuable assets.
Gordon Corera [27:23]: "Betrayal may come from within. And it was that simple."
The episode recounts the dramatic capture of CIA case officer Paul Stonebaugh, who was in the process of meeting Tolkachev. Unbeknownst to the CIA, the KGB had set a trap, arresting Stonebaugh and confiscating the essential materials meant for Tolkachev. This event marked the KGB's successful infiltration and dismantling of the espionage network surrounding Tolkachev.
Gordon Corera [25:02]: "He was captured by the KGB and taken to the Lubyanka."
Following the betrayal, Tolkachev's fate was sealed. In June 1985, the KGB orchestrated his capture while he was traveling with his wife. Stripped of his means to commit suicide, Tolkachev was brutally interrogated and ultimately executed in the notorious Le Fortov prison. His death marked a tragic end to a man committed to undermining the Soviet Union from within.
Gordon Corera [33:04]: "He was made to kneel, put up against a wall, and shot in the back of the neck for treason."
Adolf Tolkachev's intelligence contributions had profound implications for U.S. military capabilities. His detailed knowledge of Soviet aviation and radar technology played a crucial role in U.S. air superiority during conflicts such as the Gulf War, Bosnia, and Kosovo in the 1990s. His espionage efforts not only provided tactical advantages but also hastened the collapse of Soviet military prowess.
David McCloskey [37:35]: "He provided the United States with basically every scrap of possible intelligence available on the radars, the avionics, and the technical specs of the planes."
The episode draws parallels between Tolkachev's era and contemporary espionage, highlighting the enduring value of human intelligence (HUMINT) despite advancements in cyber espionage. While digital methods have transformed intelligence gathering, the fundamental need for trusted human sources remains unchanged. The vulnerabilities exposed by Tolkachev's betrayal serve as lessons for modern intelligence agencies.
Gordon Corera [39:34]: "Some of those kind of techniques that we saw in the Tolkachev operation are still clearly relevant."
"The Rest Is Classified" Episode 17 offers a comprehensive exploration of Adolf Tolkachev's life, his critical role as a spy, and the intricate web of espionage that led to his untimely demise. Through meticulous research and engaging storytelling, hosts David McCloskey and Gordon Corera illuminate the high-stakes world of espionage, the personal sacrifices of spies, and the fragile nature of intelligence operations.
David McCloskey [43:21]: "It's a never-ending battle between the CIA and the Russian security services over those secrets."
This episode not only honors Tolkachev's legacy but also underscores the timeless challenges faced by intelligence agencies in safeguarding national security.
Notable Quotes:
Gordon Corera [02:24]: "Adolf Tolkachev was a driven man, relentless in his mission, providing secrets that were so valuable they were worth billions."
Gordon Corera [25:02]: "He was captured by the KGB and taken to the Lubyanka."
Gordon Corera [33:04]: "He was made to kneel, put up against a wall, and shot in the back of the neck for treason."
David McCloskey [37:35]: "He provided the United States with basically every scrap of possible intelligence available on the radars, the avionics, and the technical specs of the planes."
Gordon Corera [39:34]: "Some of those kind of techniques that we saw in the Tolkachev operation are still clearly relevant."
David McCloskey [43:21]: "It's a never-ending battle between the CIA and the Russian security services over those secrets."
This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the full podcast.