173. The Murder of Litvinenko: The Killers Escape (Ep 5)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Classified Episode 173: The Murder of Litvinenko: The Killers Escape (Ep 5)
Date: July 5, 2026
Hosts: David McCloskey (A) and Gordon Corera (B)

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Episode Overview

In this gripping fifth installment on the murder of Alexander Litvinenko, former CIA analyst David McCloskey and security correspondent Gordon Corera delve into the extraordinary investigation that followed Litvinenko’s death by radioactive poisoning. The episode charts the forensic trail of polonium-210 through London, exposes the methods and mishaps of the suspected assassins, and recounts the fraught attempt by British detectives to question the culprits in Moscow. The show interrogates not just "how" but also "who" and "why" — and ponders the adequacy of the Western response to such an unprecedented assassination on British soil.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Difficulties of Investigating a Radioactive Murder (04:51)

• The post-mortem on Litvinenko was described as “one of the most dangerous ever undertaken in the western world” (B, 04:55).
• Cause of death determined as acute radiation syndrome from polonium-210.
• The unprecedented nature of the case: not only must police catch a killer, but also trace a radioactive poison through a major global city.

2. Explaining Polonium-210: The Murder Weapon (05:55–08:55)

• Definition and Lethality:
  • Polonium-210 emits alpha particles that “can be thought of as atomic bullets capable of killing at a cellular level” (B, 06:22).
  • Highly destructive, but has a short range within the body, hence deadly if ingested or inhaled.
  • Litvinenko had 4.4 gigabecquerels in his system — “more gigabecquerels than you would want in your body” (A, 07:15).
• Production:
  • Requires a nuclear reactor and specialized isotopes; not possible to make at home (B, 08:30).
  • Indicates state-level involvement.
• Elegance and Pitfall as a Weapon:
  • “Best and worst murder weapon”: Hard to detect but, once discovered, leaves a trail everywhere (B, 08:55–10:32).
  • Litvinenko’s survival for three weeks was unexpected; longer than intended by the perpetrators (B, 09:42).

3. Tracing the Polonium Trail through London (10:32–19:54)

• Police use radiation forensics to map the toxin’s path across dozens of London hotspots:
  • Itsu Sushi Bar, Pine Bar at Millennium Hotel, Emirates Stadium, multiple hotels, even airplanes.
• Public health concerns: 750 people from 52 countries tested, 139 lightly contaminated.
• “It was kind of amazing because...large parts of the world watched transfixed as more and more sites around London get closed off by white-suited forensic specialists” (B, 11:22).
• Forensic evidence (e.g., hair samples) indicated two poisoning attempts, with the successful dose likely administered November 1st (A & B, 13:42–13:58).
• Key object: “the nuclear teapot” found at the Millennium Hotel identified as the murder weapon (A, 19:21; B, 19:54).

4. The Moscow Investigation: Runaround and Deception (22:09–29:20)

• December 2006: Metropolitan Police sent to Moscow to interview suspects.
• Met with obstruction, surveillance, and a string of theatrical diversions:
  • Suspects (Lugovoy and Kovtun) housed in a hospital with alleged radiation sickness; interviews delayed, restricted, not properly recorded.
  • “At the first interview they get 13 minutes with him in which he basically denies everything” (B, 25:24).
  • “He just smirks at them. And then in English…says, ‘Good luck with your investigation.’” (B, 27:48)
  • The only interview tape brought home was blank (B, 28:59).
• British police themselves fall ill (“One does. Then another one is offered tea…the next day with the Russian prosecutor and he has diarrhea after that,” A & B, 26:15–26:38), prompting suspicions of deliberate harassment.
• The Russians’ narrative: claim Lugovoy and Kovtun were also victims, not perpetrators.

5. Russian Disinformation and Counter-Narratives (29:20–31:44)

• Lugovoy publicly accused Russian exile Boris Berezovsky of orchestrating the murder.
• Russians attempted to confuse the narrative, a tactic echoed in later years.
• Despite alleged tension, “they were still close,” says Marina Litvinenko (A, 29:41).
• “What you’re seeing there is the Russians throwing out different possibilities as much as they can to try and confuse the picture, which is something we see later as a kind of Russian tactic” (B, 31:05).

6. Mishaps and Motives of the Assassins (31:05–34:11)

• Revealing detail: Kovtun reportedly told his ex-wife’s mother, “Those arseholes have probably poisoned us all” (A, 31:44).
• Suggests assassins were not fully briefed; did not realize the danger and enduring traceability of polonium.
• Their carelessness (using towels to wipe up spills, allowing children near) points to ignorance of the specifics of their weapon (A & B, 32:33).

7. The UK Response and Diplomatic Fallout (34:11–38:23)

• Sufficient evidence for charges against Lugovoy and later Kovtun — but Russia refuses extradition.
• UK’s response: four Russian diplomats expelled, MI6-SVR relationship cut off (A & B, 34:21–35:17).
  • “Thor’s hammer…is brought down…when the UK Foreign Secretary in July 2007 expels four diplomats” (B, 34:21).
• Hosts agree response was “extraordinarily weak” given the nature of the murder and geopolitical context (A & B, 35:53–36:40).
• “The British state just didn’t want to confront the truth of what had happened” (B, 37:11).

8. Aftermath and Reflection (37:11–38:23)

• Litvinenko buried in a lead-lined coffin at Highgate Cemetery — “because of the radioactivity…just extraordinary” (B, 37:11).
• The investigation comes to a close, but justice isn’t fully served; the full story and broader implications are promised for the next episode.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “It’s the overlooked detail or the flaw nobody quite solved…the kind of vulnerability an intelligence service looks for.” (A, 01:41)
• “Polonium can be thought of as atomic bullets capable of killing at a cellular level.” (B, 06:22)
• “You need all that stuff like bismuths and reactors and isotopes and stuff…that is going to be an important clue when we get to who is behind this and state responsibility.” (B, 08:37)
• “London, the whole country and large parts of the world watched transfixed as more and more sites…get closed off by white-suited forensic specialists.” (B, 11:22)
• “Three hours later, the tests come back with what an investigator describes as a nuclear teapot with readings consistent for polonium poured through the spout.” (A, 19:21)
• “He just smirks at them. And then in English…says, ‘Good luck with your investigation.’” (B, 27:48)
• “Those arseholes have probably poisoned us all.” (Kovtun, via ex-wife’s mother, quoted by A, 31:44)
• “Thor’s hammer…is brought down…when the UK Foreign Secretary in July 2007 expels four diplomats.” (B, 34:21)
• “The British state just didn’t want to confront the truth of what had happened.” (B, 37:11)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Explaining polonium-210: 05:55–08:55
• Polonium forensic trail through London: 10:32–19:54
• Nuclear teapot discovery (murder weapon): 19:21–19:54
• Moscow investigation & interviews: 22:09–29:20
• Russian disinformation/counter-narratives: 29:20–31:44
• Conversation: assassins not briefed: 31:44–34:11
• Discussion on the UK response: 34:11–38:23
• Litvinenko’s burial and aftermath: 37:11–38:23

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Tone and Style

The hosts blend clinical intelligence analysis with touches of dark humor and incredulity at the murder's details and the West’s hesitant response. There’s a sense of outrage, but also admiration for the police’s technical skill and forensic ingenuity. They emphasize the bizarre, sometimes farcical, elements of the assassins’ behavior, as well as the tragic human cost.

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Conclusion

The Murder of Litvinenko: The Killers Escape illustrates both the resourcefulness of detectives in the face of state-sponsored assassination and the limitations of justice when confronted by stonewalling and geopolitics. This deeply engaging episode promises an even deeper dive in its finale, focusing on ongoing battles for justice, related murders, and the question of ultimate responsibility at the highest levels of the Russian state.

Transcript

[A]

For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes ad free listening, early access to series first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter and discounted books. Join the declassified [e-mail]. Radioactive poison has been used to kill Alexander Litvinenko on the streets of of London. But where will the trail lead? And can the police follow it to find his killers? Well, welcome to the Rest is classified. I'm David McCloskey.

[B]

And I'm Gordon Carrera.

[A]

Gordon, we left off last time with the really tragic and, and moving final statement that had been written by Litvinenko just before his death that condemned Vladimir Putin and really pointed the finger at Vladimir Putin for, for his murder. Litvinenko has died and we still though have this mystery. Now we know Polonium, a radioactive poison, has been used as the murder weapon effectively, but because it's a radioactive poison, there is now a massive problem which is where has this poison been? Bennett London. What is the trail of this poison? Yeah, that killed Alexander Litvinenko. So even though Litvinenko is dead, in many ways the police investigation is just getting started.

[B]

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[B]

so the police have got this investigation which is unprecedented, extraordinary. I mean the first thing you do is do a postmortem on the body that is really challenging because they know there's all this radiation in the body and one of those involved in it described it as one of the most dangerous post mortem examinations in ever undertaken in the western world. That's because as they're looking for samples they know that there is this incredibly toxic, dangerous radioactive substance which we'll come back to Polonium, which is inside his body and they know it's in there and they can see even though they can't take the normal samples you'd want for a post mortem, they can take some and they can see that his organs and inner tissues have been destroyed. I mean they have been cooked from the inside by this radioactivity. And the the determination will be the cause of death was acute radiation syndrome and it is thanks to this thing called polonium. I think it is time to explain what polonium is.

[A]

I think so too Gordon. And because you are the resident rest is classified science explainer. I think it falls. It falls on your. Your worthy shoulders to explain what polonium is. So take it away.

[B]

Could get Hannah Fry and Vsauce from the rest of science over. But I think.

[A]

No, no, no, no. That's the thing. We don't need Hannah Fry and Vsauce. You are the science. You are the resident science explainer.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

This is our show. You take it away.

[B]

Okay. Okay. Let's talk about firstly the alpha particles which are emitted by polonium210. Ionizing radiation, including gamma rays. And alpha particles can kill cells by damaging biological molecules within them, including DNA. Alpha particles, though, which is what we're talking about here, are particularly effective at killing cells because they only travel short distances, a few cell widths, but they deposit a lot of energy along their paths. They can be thought of as atomic bullets capable of killing at a cellular level. Enough alpha particles will kill enough cells to cause gross tissue damage, organ failure and death. Now, David, tests show that 4.4 Gbq or gigabequerals of polonium 210 were. Were there.

[A]

Sounds like a lot. That sounds like a lot.

[B]

I have never heard of giga.

[A]

It's more gigabecquerels than you would want in your body.

[B]

No, exactly. But that's what he had. 4.4 gigabecarels. And interesting enough, they can tell though from the post mortem that only 5% came through inhalation and therefore that it was much more likely ingested. In other words, he drank or ate it. Now come to my next bit of my science lesson. How do you make polonium? David, I hear you ask. Let me explain. A target of Bismuth 209, which is a stable isotope, is inserted into a nuclear reactor where it's bombarded with neutrons during the bombardment. Bismuth 209 atoms capture neutrons and thereby become bismuth 210 atoms. Bismuth 210 is an unstable isotope which decays by emitting a beta particle so that one of its neutrons changes into a proton. Beta. Beta.

[A]

Beta.

[B]

Beta. Privacy. Privacy. That converts the Bismuth 210 into a Polonium 210. When the target is removed from the reactor, a process has to be undertaken to isolate or remove the Polonium210 that has been created in this way from the remaining bismuth target. Thank you very much.

[A]

So what you're saying is that anybody could make this at home?

[B]

I think that is exactly what I'm not saying. David. You cannot make this.

[A]

You can just find it somewhere.

[B]

Yeah, you need all that stuff like bismuths and reactors and isotopes and stuff in order to do it. So that is going to be an important clue when we get to who is behind this and state responsibility.

[A]

You need to have. You need to have a nuclear reactor.

[B]

You need to have a nuclear reactor.

[A]

Have polonium. Yes. Yeah.

[B]

That's basically the. That's the point. Now, I think it is interesting, it's worth saying that polonium, in some ways was the best and the worst murder weapon. The best, because actually, it's pretty hard to detect and hadn't been seen before. As we saw in the previous episode, the symptoms are so unusual that people don't know what to make of them. And the expectation, I think, in using it, is that someone will die quickly and and mysteriously, so that it's never identified. And the fact that Litvinenko only ingested, remember, he only took a few small sips in the pine bar, and that he was actually in very good physical shape meant he survived much longer than if he'd had a proper drink of it.

[A]

If he'd had a full cup of tea, he would have died with it.

[B]

He'd have died within a day or two. And even then, remember, it took three weeks to solve the medical mystery. He. He's poisoned on the first. They only work out what it is on the day of his death on the 23rd. So that's, you know, that's three weeks to solve it. So any quicker and they may not have solved it. And if it had happened in a day or two, it would have just gone down as an unexplained death. So I think that's why you can see it's potentially a useful murder weapon. But it's the worst murder weapon, because once you do discover what it is, you can follow a trail of where it's been because it's really persistent and you can detect the tiniest speck of it. And because it's so unusual, you can. You can basically look and see where those who've come into contact with it

[A]

have been, which then allows the police to follow a trail that goes from Itsu Sushi Bar to the Pine Bar to Emirates Stadium, the home of Arsenal Football Club, because Lugovoy had gone to a match there that night.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I would also imagine that this becomes a massive news story because it's not secret that he's died. It's not secret that he blamed Putin on his deathbed. And now the government, although I guess not the public, maybe not quite yet, but the government knows The UK government knows that because polonium was involved, they now have to essentially follow this trail all through London. And that is going to be visible to the public.

[B]

Yeah. And you can't keep quiet the fact that there are public health elements, because people know there's a mystery to this and that there's radioactivity. So anyone who remembers this from the time will remember. It was kind of amazing because I think London, the whole country and large parts of the world watch transfixed as more and more sites around London get closed off by white suited forensic specialists searching for radioactive particles. And of course, there is this worry for the general public because a lot of people potentially would have come into contact with it. There's a cobra, which is the name of the emergency meetings governments have. And one police officer remembers as he comes out of it, reporters shouting to him, are people safe? And he's thinking to himself, I don't know. I mean, because no one's ever dealt with this before. I mean, no one's planned for it. And I think in all, there's going to be 40 sites and 750 people who are tested by the Health protection authority from 52 different countries, because London's so international and these are tourist sites. You know, talk about Mayfair and Piccadilly and places like that. And 139 people shows some degree of contamination from polonium. And the four groups which had the higher levels were Litvinenko's friends and family, office staff from the offices he visited, guests at hotels and also the hotel and bar staff. And what's interesting is they're able to distinguish between what's called primary contamination, so something directly touched by polonium and secondary, where it's been transferred, where it's gone on someone's clothes and then the speck has fallen off and ended up on a seat or a restaurant or another airline. And that's crucial. They're also going to be able to use science to look at where and how Litvinenko might have taken it. And if you remember, Marina had kept a clump of his hair which had fallen out, and they're able to use that and test that to show that there had likely been, and this is important, two intakes of polonium, the first one a hundred times smaller than the second, and the first one probably in mid October, and the Second one on

[A]

November 1st, because there was that. Well, it was the first attempt, I guess, that Lugovoy and Kovtun made to slip sub it as drink.

[B]

It looks like he didn't even have A sip and all you've got is the secondary contamination being enough.

[A]

I see.

[B]

Because he, he was sick at that point. So it's so interesting. So using this mix of science and detective work, they're able to look. And of course, the first place they go, one of the first places that it's a sushi bar in Piccadilly. And that's where he met Scaramella on November 1, the day of the poisoning, but before he went to the Pine Bar. And they find contamination there. And this is really interesting because if you think that Lugovoy and Cobtun are the suspects, then you're going to. You'd expect to find it at the Pine Bar, but not where he was before the Pine Bar, at the. It's sushi place. So immediately in the very first days of the investigation, that makes Scaramella a suspect because he meets Scaramella on the first and there's contamination there before he goes to see Lugovoy and Cobden. And it's interesting, Scaramella gets tested. They test the hotel Scaramella stayed at, but there's nothing. And of course, what they then realize is that Litvinenko was also in the same sushi bar on October 16 when he met Lugovoy. The same sushi bar. So what if it's left over from then? So immediately they're starting to kind of narrow it down a bit.

[A]

They also find it at that boardroom where he'd met on the 16th of October. It was on the green tablecloth in between where Lugovoy and Litvinenko had sat when they were having their conversation about the due diligence work? It's primary contamination, so not transferred from somewhere else. There's also secondary contamination of. Remember the shisha pipe that the, that Lugovoy and Kovtun had used that evening? There's secondary contamination at the bar. One of their hotel rooms is also later contaminated. There's particular. This makes sense. Particularly strong primary contamination in the sink of their room. So I guess that the thought here is, looks like they had made an attempt. They had mixed the poison, he had failed to drink it, and then they throw the rest out and this is down the sink. And then this is that night where they had that night paid for at the hotel and then decided to leave. And I guess it makes sense because you wouldn't want to continue using a bathroom where he had just, you know, dumped out a whole bunch of radioactive poison.

[B]

That's right. And so they're starting to Build a picture of that first trip. They test the aircraft that Lugovoy and Kovtun flew out on on October 18th at the end of that trip. And they find secondary contamination in the area of the seats on which Kovtun and Logovoy had sat. They never get the chance to test the incoming flight because the Russians are playing, once this starts to get public, playing games with what flights they can test and refusing to let some be tested. But then they find it as well, because Lugovoy, of course, made a second trip in late October. And here they find absolutely massive readings in the bathroom of the Sheraton Hotel on Park Lane that Lookevoy had used. And there is so much that the detectives doing the testing, it said literally run out of the room. I mean, they. They look at their. You could imagine them kind of looking at their, you know, whatever you use to detect the podium and go, that is off the scale. And they just. They just bomb it out of the bathroom.

[A]

And the.

[B]

Actually, the highest readings for contamination anywhere are found in that hotel room and in the bathroom bin. And they also find contamination in two towels which had been through the hotel laundry. So now you're starting to understand the second trip. And the best guess is that Lugovoy spilled the poison in the house.

[A]

How does he spill the poison?

[B]

As he stole the poison. I know it would appear. Does he Dr.

[C]

I don't.

[A]

Maybe he's drunk. Maybe he's drunk when he's handling the poison. I feel like if I were in London to murder someone with poison, then I would be very, very careful with the poison.

[B]

I think I would be.

[A]

I would be like, I'm really gonna focus on not spilling this poison when I take it out of my bag,

[B]

you know, instead, you could just imagine in the bathroom, it drops, and then you get some towels to wipe it up, puts it in the bin. I mean, it's like. I mean, it's bizarre. So then they're gonna find it on Cobtoon's Hamburg trip he takes at the end of October. They find it in the car, the passenger seat, even on a teddy bear. And what that looks like is he's shedding little particles a bit, so it's not a lot from his earlier attempt. So he's still kind of got it on his system or on his body. And then, crucially, they find it for that November 1st trip. They find it in the room Covtun stays in at the Millennium Hotel, places Covtoon touched. It looks like they think Mixed in the toilet downstairs by reception, which we talked about, went in there. And then it looks like from the readings that it was poured away in the sink in Covetoon's room afterwards, whatever was left over. So it looks like they've been trained to mix it somewhere and then after they've deployed it, pour it away down a sink. And that seems to be a pattern that you see from these various visits.

[A]

Now, the pine bar is obviously key, and the detectives are told that the 600 cups and saucers and hundred teapots that the hotel used had gone through 42 washes since the visit, since LED Vinegar had been there with Lugovoy and Cobtoon. But three hours later, the tests come back with what an investigator describes as a nuclear teapot with readings consistent for polonium poured through the spout. And this, at long last, is the murder weapon. It's the teapot.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. They found the nuclear teapot. So they have their suspects, they've got the evidence. The next step is to talk to them. Let's take a break there and afterwards we'll come back and look at a trip by the police to Moscow.

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[A]

Well, welcome back. It is now December of 2006 and officers from London's Metropolitan Police are going to make a formal visit to Moscow to interview witnesses and try to talk in particular to Kovtun and Lugovoy.

[B]

And the officers are given a security briefing beforehand, warned they'll be under surveillance. I think the spooks give them that briefing. And watch out for honey traps. It's the briefing everyone gets before they get to Moscow. I'm sure you've had that too.

[A]

Isn't it surprising like that the Russians even agree to let them come. I mean, what a different world this is 20 years ago that there's even the British investigators go to Russia to even look at this. It's impossible to imagine today.

[B]

And we used to take the statements from the Russian authorities almost seriously. The Russian prosecutor would say, well, we've found this or we've done that and we kind of dutifully report it, even with a bit of skepticism, increasing skepticism. But you're right, it does feel like a different age where the police would, you know, would be allowed to do that. But I think at this point there is a battle over narratives. I mean, you could imagine if the, if the Russians didn't expect to be exposed for having poisoned him. If we will come back to that, I guess is the assumption, then they've suddenly got a bit of a problem and so they're trying to work out how do we respond to it. Maybe we can deflect, maybe, you know, we don't want to look too evasive. So, so they, they're going to play games with the police on the visit. There's tons of TV cameras and media. When they arrive, they meet Russian officials from the Russian prosecutor's office and it doesn't go well. Officially, of course, the Russians say we'll do everything we can to help, but they put loads of obstructions in the path of the police. I mean, there are even moments where they're driving to an interview to a location and There are cars driving around them erratically. You know, there's attempts to lose them, there's attempts to trail them, there's all kinds of, you know, games that are being played. But the priority is seeing Covtun and Lugovoy in person. And the Brits think they're in a place called Hospital Number six, which has been built for radiation patients from Chernobyl, which I guess makes sense. The British team are told, are told that these two poor Russians are being treated for radiation sickness. Somehow they've become ill. And so there's delays, there's a two hour drive to get to the hospital. Everything is done to delay that initial meeting. And I think looking back, it's partly to get the witnesses ready. Police are told you can't bring in recording devices. Only one person can be present. You have to be quick. And you know, the claim is that they're radioactive, Covtun and Lugeboy. So detectives are going to have to wear protective suits. Now these, this is where again the story almost descends into farce. If it wasn't such a tragedy. I mean, Covtun is dressed in cream colored pyjamas and wearing a kind of paper face mask and a blue plastic head covering. I don't quite know what that looks like, but what it means is you can only see his eyes.

[A]

Is it him?

[B]

Is it even him? I mean, do you know? And at the first interview they get 13 minutes with him in which he basically denies everything. So it's pretty hard. And whilst they're there, the news breaks back in London that this is being treated as a murder inquiry and not just an unexplained death. I mean, I guess that's obvious. But it does put the pressure on the team and raise the tension with Moscow because the men are now being treated as potential suspects, not just witnesses. But the crucial thing is, is seeing Lugaboy. And here the interviews get canceled or short notice. You know, the claim is coughed in, meanwhile he's got ill, he's going to, he's in a coma. I mean, even some of the, this is interesting. I mean, some of the police officers themselves feel sick during the visit.

[A]

One does.

[B]

Then another one is offered tea the next day with the Russian prosecutor and he has diarrhea after that. And they do wonder, these police officers, if they've been poisoned. I mean, not to kill them, not polonium, but just to make their life difficult. I mean, I don't know whether you think that's plausible or whether it's just bad Water. But I, you could believe that there's a.

[A]

Sure. That would make sense for the Russians to hassle them. I think that would be, that would be in pattern. Why make it pleasant for the investigators who are coming over to take a look at these two guys and they're trying to get Lugovoy for an interview. Interviews get canceled, delayed. They do finally see him, and this is wild. So he's in a hospital gown, he's got a designer T shirt on underneath and doesn't seem sick at all. His hair is not falling out. Kind of looks like he's just shown up at the hospital in his T shirt and thrown on a gown over it. Yeah, and they get the, the investigators do get a longer interview but are not permitted to record it themselves. The Russians do that and it's through a translator. And, you know, I, I, he's less than truthful, I think it's safe to say throughout this, this interview.

[B]

Yeah, he gets some of the timings wrong of when he was at the Pine Bar. He says he only arrived at 4, but they've got CCTV of him arriving at 3:30 and they're just not getting any details. And you know, this detail the police remember at the end of the interview, he just smirks at them. And then in English, everything else has been done in translation. He says, good luck with your investigation.

[A]

Why are they even admitting that they've, that these two guys have, have radiation sickness?

[B]

They're gonna claim they are victims of what? I think they're gonna claim that either Litvinenko tried to poison them or someone else tried to poison Litvinenko and they

[A]

were, and they just happened to be there and they got contaminated because I

[B]

guess it helps explain the contamination that's on them and where they've been. If you say, well, we were the victims of someone else poison. So you can, I mean, it's interesting. The police interview Lugovoy's wife. It's an interesting question because you wonder if she's a bit annoyed at the

[A]

fact that he spilled poison everywhere on multiple trips in London and then had the whole family there and didn't. It was Lugovoy's son who he insisted,

[B]

give Litvinenko a hug, Uncle Sasha. Shake his hand.

[A]

Yeah, shake his hand.

[B]

I mean, a few days later they do get divorced. So.

[A]

Shocking. Shocking.

[B]

Yeah, shocking. In all, it's a two week trip. I mean, two weeks in Moscow in December for the detectives. I mean. Yeah, I'm not sure it's the most glamorous foreign travel that you get as a detective.

[A]

Well, and all the diarrhea they had.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it's memorable, but for the wrong reasons. And then they're made to appear before the Russian media. At the end, they get the tapes of the interview because they'd not been allowed to tape the Lugovoy interview themselves. They get back to London, put the tape in the machine, and of course it's blank. There's nothing there. I mean, you're just like, oh, oh, come on.

[A]

Now. Lugovoy in particular will come up with a lot of great and bizarre counter narratives in media interviews. And the main one is that Berezovsky, Boris Berezovsky, killed Litvinenko because the two had fallen out and Berezovsky had cut off his financial support to Litvinenko.

[B]

It's interesting that one, because that's the one they seem to push, because of course the Russians want to blame Berezovsky for everything. He's the arch plotter. But there is this conversation which Lugovoy recalls that he had in Chinatown on October 17 with Litvinenko, where Lugovoy says that Litvinenko tells him and coftude that Litvinenko admits to collecting dirt on people to blackmail them and make money, including Berezovsky. But with Berezovsky, he's have to do it through a cutout because he doesn't want to be exposed as the blackmailer. And he says Berezovsky is still paying for his son's tuition. Now, he's obviously got an incentive to try and pin this on Berezovsky and also have a motive for why Berezovsky and Litvinenko might have fallen out. And it is true that the Litvinenko Berezovsky relationship had been a little bit more fractious. They'd had an argument in the summer, maybe about security advice. The money had been reduced from Berezovsky to Litvinenko. But everyone says they'd actually made up after the argument. They hadn't fallen out. And Marina says the underlying friendship wasn't broken and they were still close. And I think what you're seeing there is the Russians throwing out theories, you know, throwing out different possibilities as much as they can to try and confuse the picture, which is something we see later as a kind of Russian tactic.

[A]

And there are also some other giveaways, aren't there? Because after Litvinenko's death, Cobtun has a conversation with vault people, his ex wife's mother, about the radiation poisoning that he himself is suffering from. And then when interviewed by the German authorities, his ex wife's mother gives this account of the conversation. He told me that he had probably got some of the poison which killed Litvinenko. He said, word for word, those arseholes have probably poisoned us all. And it's a fascinating little turn of phrase because who are the arseholes?

[B]

The fsb.

[A]

It's the fsb, Right, Yeah. That comment and frankly, the Lugovoy behavior in the bathroom with like the spilling and the towels and stuff, strongly suggests that these two guys, Lugovoy and Kaftun, probably didn't know what they were dealing with. They probably didn't know it was radioactive. And so it's, you know, what they were given by the FSB was probably. They were told it's poison, put it in his drink, but they weren't told what they actually had. And so they themselves are appalled at the risk that the FSB put on them and their end in Lugavoy's case, I'm sure his family. It's a really interesting insight into how little information even the, the poisoners had about what they, what they actually had in their vials.

[B]

Yeah, I think it is a really telling comment because it then you're right, a lot of other things then make sense in the way, you know, wiping it up with towels, you know, look, a boy introducing his son, all of that makes sense. If you think this is a poison that you're given and you're told has to be ingested in food, hence needing the chef, you know, go finding the drinks, all these things, but you not knowing that it's, that it's radioactive and leaves a trail because they don't act in a way that would suggest they knew that, but it would suggest they knew it was a poison, but just not quite how deadly and how persistent it was. So that I agree. I think that that comment from Cobtoons ex wife's mother is actually almost the ex wife's mother. That's the one to be. That's the one to be worried about. That's the one that really gives you away. I do think it, I think it, you know, it's, it's very telling, but. Yes. So by May 2007, the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, say there is sufficient evidence to charge Lugovoy with the murder of Litvinenko. At that point, Lugovoy does a press conference denying it all. And he also at this point starts talking a lot more about having been approached by MI6. We talked about that earlier as one of the potential motives and he's going to put that out there. It's interesting because at the time I think most people thought, again, is this disinformation? Is it true? Could be disinformation, but it also, I think, is quite plausible. There's an element of truth for it. There's a warrant issued for his arrest later. There'll be one issue for Kovtun as well. But the problem is Russia says it won't extradite its own citizens.

[A]

So what is the. What does the UK government do, Gordon? What's the hammer that gets brought down on Moscow for murdering a British citizen with radioactive poison in the middle of London?

[B]

Yeah, Thor's hammer is. The mighty hammer of the British state is brought down for using radioactive material in London when the UK Foreign Secretary in July 2007 expels four diplomats. I mean, I have to say that is. You are right. You are right to be cynical, David.

[A]

I'm going to take it. Don't forget that Mi6 cuts off its liaison relationship with the SVR too. So all of that, all of that, I'm sure just very juicy human intelligence that, you know, SIS was doubtless sharing with the Russians is, Is cut off suddenly. So I'm sure, I'm sure there was very, very little, very little of. Of substance actually being passed. So that's cut off and then I guess return Russia expels for. For Brits from the embassy in Moscow. And that's kind of. That's kind of it.

[B]

It's crazy, isn't it?

[A]

Don't you think it doesn't feel like, like a strong response to the murder of one of your own citizens at the heart of your capital. I think we'll. I think we'll talk more in our next episode about what. What were the options and what could actually be done. I think for all we've been joking, it is a. It does raise some big questions about what you do, you know, how do you actually respond to something like this, you know, in a way that is maybe proportionate or that is at least in keeping with the nature of the crime. It's a very tough. It is a tough question, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah. And we will get back to that in the next episode. I think in the longer term. But I do think it is extraordinary and weak. I mean, maybe the argument is we've let the police do their thing, we've got charges out for these two guys. But you still think it's obvious the Russian state is behind this, we'll come back to the evidence, but everyone's worried in this period about Al Qaeda and terrorists using weapons of mass destruction. We've got to war with Iraq over wmd and yet here you've got another state using a weapon of mass destruction in maybe not mass destruction, but a nuclear weapon in the sense of a nuclear poison against civilians. And the response is. It's just feeble, really. I mean, I do, I do think it's shocking, actually. Really shocking.

[A]

And do you think it was purposely weak? Because as we talked about in the first episode of the series, there's so much Russian money and influence in London in this period that there's a desire to not rock the boat. I mean, I'm not sure there are good options, but there's probably better options than expelling four diplomats and cutting off what was already probably a somewhat weak sauce liaison relationship in response. It seems like there is more you could have done. British state chose not to.

[B]

I think the British state just didn't want to confront the truth of what, what had happened. So meanwhile, I mean, Litvinenko himself, a month after he dies, he's buried, he's buried in a lead lined coffin. It's such a detail, isn't it, because of the radioactivity, because they're worried about that still leaking. It's just extraordinary to think that they were still worried about the danger. And he's buried in Highgate Cemetery. I actually went to his grave earlier this year. Have you ever been to Highgate Cemetery, David? I have not. It sounds a strange thing on the tourist trail, but actually of London. But it is extraordinary because there's two wings to it and one wing you've got Karl Marx's grave, you know, and on another you've got Litvinenko. But also these amazing. It's incredibly cinematic actually. The, the ruins of some of the graves and these old mausoleums built for rich people in, in years gone by. But they're on. One of the paths is the grave for Alexander Litvinenko. So that's the investigation, but the story isn't quite over in trying to bring those behind it to justice.

[A]

Well, I think there, Gordon, is a good spot to end. It'll be come back for the final episode of this series. We're going to look at Marina Lyntvinenko's battle for justice, the other murders in Britain linked to this case, and whether Litvinenko was right and we can point the finger for his murder at none other than Vladimir Putin.

[B]

That's right. Remember you can hear that final episode right now. If you're a member of the Declassified Club, you can join@the restisclassified.com also hear the bonus episodes that we're going to do where we're going to dig a little bit deeper into some aspects of this story, including the police investigation, and do also sign up at the website for our newsletter. But otherwise, see you next time.

[A]

We'll see you next time.

[D]

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