← The Rest Is Classified
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- [00:01]
Person A
Oh sheet.
- [00:02]
Person B
Honey, chill. It's just laundry.
- [00:04]
Person A
Not that I'm talking about these Arm and Hammer Power sheets. All the power of Arm Hammer laundry detergent in a convenient tossable sheet.
- [00:12]
Person B
Oh sheet.
- [00:13]
Person A
That's what I'm saying.
- [00:15]
Person B
And Arm and Hammer Power sheets deliver an effective clean at a great price. Think of all the laundry we'll do.
- [00:20]
Person A
And all the money we'll save. Oh sheet, Arm and Hammer.
- [00:25]
Gordon Carrera
More power to you.
- [00:29]
David McCloskey
Now you can get Disney plus and Hulu together for just 2.99amonth for four months.
- [00:34]
Ryan Reynolds
We sure would love that.
- [00:35]
David McCloskey
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- [01:00]
Harry Gold
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- [01:17]
Person B
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- [01:37]
Gordon Carrera
There have been things in my life that I must admit I would do differently. Looking back at those 72 years I've lived, I can see all the mistakes I made and those I could have avoided. But I'm deeply convinced that in spite of all the mistakes and the negligent behaviour, if the line of your life still took you towards the goal you'd set once and for all, if you were able to reach that goal, or at least get closer to it, if going in that direction, you did not lose yourself nor squander your strength, commit anything contemptible, humiliate yourself, climb over dead bodies, nor harm others to get there, if you were able to maintain the moral course within your soul, which in every language is called conscience, you can consider your life a success. Welcome to the Rest is classified. I'm Gordon Carrera.
- [02:23]
Ryan Reynolds
And I'm David McCloskey.
- [02:25]
Gordon Carrera
And that was Klaus Fuchs writing later.
- [02:28]
Ryan Reynolds
The first paragraph of Gordon's New book for everyone.
- [02:31]
Gordon Carrera
My autobiography.
- [02:32]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah, of course, autobiography.
- [02:35]
Gordon Carrera
A Life of Conscience. But no, that was Klaus Fuchs rather than Gordon Carrera, offering some clues on why he made the fateful decision to spy for the Soviet Union. We looked last time at Klaus Fuchs, this fascinating figure, you know, who talks there about conscience, who'd grown up in Nazi Germany, who'd fled to Britain, who'd been interned in Canada, who'd been this brilliant mathematician and theoretical physicist and who'd had a communist past and some communist friends. And we'd left him really just as he was being drawn into what he discovered would be Britain's nuclear program and also meeting with agents of Soviet intelligence.
- [03:17]
Ryan Reynolds
Well, that's right. And I think, you know, Gordon, it's probably at this point in the story helpful to kind of set up a.
- [03:23]
Klaus Fuchs
Bit of the Soviet intelligence services that Klaus Fuchs is actually going to meet.
- [03:28]
Ryan Reynolds
With and start to really work for in the coming years and months. So the Soviet intelligence services in sort of late 30s, early 40s are highly effective in many respects. They've recruited a lot of high profile assets in the 30s and 40s.
- [03:46]
Klaus Fuchs
You mentioned last time Kim Philby and the Cambridge Five. That's probably the most notorious example.
- [03:51]
Ryan Reynolds
I mean there's a lot of, I guess ideological fellow travelers to Soviet communism.
- [03:55]
Klaus Fuchs
In this period, aren't there?
- [03:57]
Ryan Reynolds
And people who kind of see in the Soviet Union, in Russia a kind of shining example of an anti capitalist.
- [04:06]
Klaus Fuchs
Future that's more equal, more just.
- [04:09]
Ryan Reynolds
And this is really the period which now, you know, you sort of think that sounds bonkers, but this is before.
- [04:15]
Klaus Fuchs
We knew what we knew about Stalin's purges.
- [04:17]
Ryan Reynolds
And the Soviet intelligence services have I think really recruited a lot of ideological spies in this period and have really, I think built up a very high profile stable of assets across the West.
- [04:33]
Gordon Carrera
That's right. I think Klaus Fuchs to some extent like Kim Philby is one of those people who'd seen those street battles in Fuchs case in Berlin and Philby's in Vienna when he was there between communists and fascists and decided they wanted to be on the side of communists. So there was a kind of ideological belief in communism, but also a kind of anti fascism which was leading lots of idealistic young people, I think, to the Soviet Union and to its intelligence agencies which were at this point the gru, which I guess was the military intelligence agency of the Soviet Union and the nkvd, which we know better as the kgb, which is the civilian Foreign Intelligence Directorate of the Soviet Union.
- [05:15]
Ryan Reynolds
Well, and I think Also, there's a tendency, and there's good reason for this, to just basically call every organ of Soviet intelligence the kgb, because they changed.
- [05:26]
Klaus Fuchs
Pretty consistently throughout this period.
- [05:28]
Gordon Carrera
It is worth saying that the GRU is separate. And that's the group which Fuchs had originally been put in touch with was GRU through his kind of communist contacts in that left wing hotspot of Hampstead in North London.
- [05:41]
Ryan Reynolds
When we think about Soviet intelligence in this period, and frankly, I think even today to sort of either take one of two extreme views. One is that they're 12ft tall, they've recruited tons of high profile assets. Kind of true in some respects. But then on the other side, Stalin's purges have absolutely wreaked havoc on their capabilities, you know, because these services were not immune from the purges that happened in Moscow in the mid to late 1930s. I mean, the other thing we should note here is that it's a lot easier for the Soviet services to operate in the west than it is for Western services to operate in the very closed Soviet Union. So as a result, the Soviet services, be it predecessors to the kgb, be it the gru, they're very active in.
- [06:29]
Klaus Fuchs
Talent spotting in the US and in Western Europe. There's this large pool of potential kind of ideological recruits.
- [06:36]
Ryan Reynolds
The people that we're going to talk about in the story today are these kind of German Communist emigres who were in Great Britain, but are kind of ideological fellow travelers with the Soviet Union. And, you know, I think from the Soviet intel standpoint in April of 1941, which is when Klaus Fuchs first meets with this GRU officer in London. Now at this meeting, it's kind of unclear if Fuchs really knew who this guy worked for.
- [07:05]
Klaus Fuchs
He's introduced to him as Mr. Johnson.
- [07:07]
Ryan Reynolds
Speaks near perfect English, but with this kind of interesting accent.
- [07:11]
Klaus Fuchs
From the Soviet intel standpoint, I think Fuchs is a very interesting potential target.
- [07:16]
Ryan Reynolds
But he doesn't yet have access to secrets, does he? I mean, he's a theoretical physicist who's potentially in the swirl to get involved in the British atomic bomb project.
- [07:29]
Klaus Fuchs
But he's not yet involved.
- [07:30]
Gordon Carrera
He's not yet involved, but he's about to be. And I think it's kind of likely he might have some sense of what's going on because some of his kind of contacts and mentors are deeply involved in this. And I think it's around this time he gets contacted by Rudy Pyles, who is another one of these kind of emigre brilliant scientists and contacts him and is one of his kind of mentors and basically says, would you like to work on a secret project?
- [07:54]
Ryan Reynolds
For me, it's probably worth talking about this secret project a little bit because the field of atomic research at this stage is pretty new. You know, you rewind to even 1940 a year earlier, and it's this Rudy Pyles guy who's going to become one.
- [08:11]
Klaus Fuchs
Of Fuchs's mentors, who had written a.
- [08:13]
Ryan Reynolds
Memo that ends up on Churchill's desk that outlines the feasibility of an atomic bomb and to just paint a picture of how new the science is here. The neutron, Gordon is discovered only in 1932.
- [08:29]
Klaus Fuchs
So this is like cutting edge stuff, right? We're only a few years away at.
- [08:32]
Ryan Reynolds
This point in the story from the.
- [08:34]
Klaus Fuchs
Neutron even being discovered.
- [08:36]
Ryan Reynolds
And there is a group of German.
- [08:38]
Klaus Fuchs
Scientists in Britain who had sort of.
- [08:39]
Ryan Reynolds
Participated in and knew of experiments in.
- [08:42]
Klaus Fuchs
Which uranium atoms had been split by.
- [08:46]
Ryan Reynolds
Bombarding them with neutrons, which in the.
- [08:49]
Klaus Fuchs
Process released massive amounts of energy.
- [08:52]
Ryan Reynolds
And it's kind of that theoretical concept that's going to serve as the foundation.
- [08:58]
Klaus Fuchs
For the work that Fuchs is going.
- [09:00]
Ryan Reynolds
To get involved in.
- [09:01]
Klaus Fuchs
And for those not watching on video, Gordon is smiling as I try to.
- [09:05]
Ryan Reynolds
Describe the science behind an atomic bomb. And we've had fights in kind of working through this story over how deep we're going to go here. And this is the point where I'm going to turn it over to Gordon Carrera to describe the science of atomic weaponry. Take it away.
- [09:20]
Gordon Carrera
No, I was enjoying. I thought you did very well. Splitting the atom. That's all you need to know. So I'll try and do it concisely. The key thing is splitting the atom. And it's about using Uranium 235, which is fissile, which breaks apart, releases energy. And what they realized is if you can enrich uranium so there's more uranium 235, then it becomes possible to build a bomb. But you still need to find a way to weaponize it and to turn it into something that will actually explode. So there's a lot of kind of practical industry, but also theoretical physics required to understand how to do that. That's my explanation. David, did that make sense?
- [10:00]
Ryan Reynolds
That's good. Did you know Gordon? Actually, when I was a management consultant, I had to spend months working at a nuclear power plant. And my ability to describe the science never matured beyond what you just described.
- [10:16]
Gordon Carrera
The key point, though, is at the start of the Second World War, you've got this point at which people have realized it's theoretically possible to build a bomb, but no one knows yet how to actually do it and how to weaponize or how possible it is or how far other countries might have got on that process.
- [10:34]
Ryan Reynolds
The theoretical physics are directly connecting to.
- [10:39]
Klaus Fuchs
The possibility of a weapon here. And it had actually been German scientists.
- [10:43]
Ryan Reynolds
In Germany who prior to the war, had first discovered nuclear fission. Right. Splitting the atomic. And within a week of hearing of the discovery, Oppenheimer at his lab in Berkeley, had sketched out the basic design for an atomic bomb. Now, it's theory at this point, but.
- [11:01]
Klaus Fuchs
This direct connection between fission and weaponry.
- [11:04]
Ryan Reynolds
Is to your point. It's in Germany, it's in the Soviet Union, it's in the States, and it's in Britain where you have these scientific communities who are starting to work on and think about how you might translate it into a practical weapon. And of course, the race right at this point in 1941 is with the Nazis. And there's a group in Britain, Fuchs is part of this, and they are concentrating a group to begin working on.
- [11:33]
Klaus Fuchs
The British atomic bomb in Birmingham.
- [11:35]
Ryan Reynolds
And it is a race against the Germans to build this weapon.
- [11:40]
Gordon Carrera
So Fuchs is being brought into this circle with Rudy Pyldes, I think, is the kind of key figure. And it's interesting as well, because it's a group of largely refugee, you know, expat scientists. A lot of them have got kind of German backgrounds who are working together, who become very close. I mean, Peils actually hosts Fuchs and to pearls and his wife. He becomes almost like a kind of surrogate son. You know, they're very, very close. All part of this kind of relatively small group of scientists. And I think at this point as well, Britain has actually got the leading edge on the theoretical side of it, partly thanks to people like Peierls and Fuchs, actually, when it comes to the theoretical work of building the bomb. Britain is arguably in the lead at this point, and Fuchs is now being brought right into the heart of this program.
- [12:27]
Ryan Reynolds
Well, and this is the point where a lot of his potential as a Soviet asset translates into practical kind of intelligence. Right? Because in May, Fuchs makes the move to Birmingham to join the uranium people, as they're referred to, who are working on atomic research and how to translate these insights into a weapon. Fuchs is again with the piles. I mean, Rudy Pyle's wife actually buys Fuchs's clothes. I mean, he's sort of brought on as this member of the family, and he's beginning to work on the British atomic bomb project. And I think it really does beg this question of how in the world MI5 clears him for this, because we have this report going back to the mid-30s from Germany that kind of lays out Fuchs's communist connections. And there's also been, in the interim, a corroborating report from an MI5 informer.
- [13:25]
Klaus Fuchs
Who'S sort of among the German emigres.
- [13:27]
Ryan Reynolds
Talking about how Fuchs is a communist. I think he was actually well known in his academic circles, his sympathies for the Soviet Union. You put this guy on the most sensitive project in Great Britain, it's crazy.
- [13:41]
Klaus Fuchs
Yeah.
- [13:41]
Gordon Carrera
I mean, in some ways, this is the second kind of failure for MI5. And I think the reason why they fail, it looks like, is partly because it is so secret, because it looks like MI5 are kind of asked to check whether he can kind of work, but they're not told on what, because the secrecy around the nuclear weapons program is so intense that they are not told about it at MI5. So as far as they know, this is just someone working who's being asked for a job through the Ministry of Supply or something else, you know, to do some work. And so I don't think they quite grasp the fact that he's going to be working on the most secret things, and that's because of the kind of secrecy around it. So he starts work in the kind of May, June, July, and actually it's only by October that he's actually cleared to work. But they do clear him. He's already been working for a few months and he's already actually effectively been given access to the secrets. It is another miss, basically, by MI5. There are these traces around him, but again, they just seem to discount them and consider them almost. Almost kind of normal to have some kind of communist contacts.
- [14:45]
Klaus Fuchs
It's also important to note just, I.
- [14:47]
Ryan Reynolds
Mean, how few people you would have.
- [14:50]
Klaus Fuchs
That would be qualified to work on these projects.
- [14:52]
Ryan Reynolds
Right. Because within the first week of starting to work on this contract in Birmingham.
- [14:57]
Klaus Fuchs
Fuchs has calculated how the neutrons ejected by the atoms would scatter when they're.
- [15:02]
Ryan Reynolds
Hit during the fission reaction. He's theorized a reduction in the amount of uranium 235 required for a sustained reaction. So this is not really widget making.
- [15:11]
Klaus Fuchs
There are very few people who are.
- [15:13]
Ryan Reynolds
Qualified to do this. And I'm sure at some level there's a thought that this guy's absolutely brilliant. He's working on a really technical, very sensitive weapons program and we're willing to take the risk. So by the summer of 1941 though I think we're at another real turning point in the story of Klaus Fuchs. So in June, Hitler has invaded the Soviet Union, right. So Germany and Russia, which had been in this sort of tense kind of non aggression pact, the Nazis break, that Britain is now a Russian ally and Stalin is pleading for help in Europe. And Churchill, he has kind of got this lofty rhetoric. When Britain and Russia join forces against Germany, he says we shall give whatever.
- [16:00]
Klaus Fuchs
Help we can to Russia and the Russian people.
- [16:03]
Ryan Reynolds
And yet I think from Fuchs's standpoint in Birmingham, he's seeing this work on a superweapon not going to the Soviet Union.
- [16:13]
Klaus Fuchs
Right. The Brits are not sharing any of.
- [16:15]
Ryan Reynolds
These insights with Russian scientists. And I think it's fair to say, given what's going to come next, that Fuchs is going to see this lack of British aid to Russia as a kind of twisted desire for both the.
- [16:32]
Klaus Fuchs
Soviet and German armies to destroy each other. And it's going to sicken him.
- [16:36]
Gordon Carrera
It sounds like you're the one being quite sympathetic to Fuchs at this point by saying, well, you know that we're allies, so we were keeping this nuclear development secret from him. I mean, I thought I was the one who was kind of more sympathetic to Fuchs. There's an ambiguity about when he really starts passing secrets to his contacts and whether it actually might even be before the Nazis invade the Soviet Union, which would be a more controversial thing because then the UK and the Soviet Union weren't allies. But certainly he is motivated by helping the Soviet Union and he now has the access, I guess, to some of the most deepest secrets that the UK has and he's just going to pass him on to an ally. Is that okay?
- [17:15]
Ryan Reynolds
Well, no, it's certainly not okay. I mean, I'm merely Gordon trying to understand the mind of the traitor and lay it out. I think you're the one who's continually showing sympathies for various sun deprived scientist types who, who share secrets with, with the Russians. And you're right though, you know, that it is not exactly clear when in this period, in kind of late spring, early summer, Klaus Fuchs makes the decision.
- [17:42]
Klaus Fuchs
To kind of take things to the next level and really start to provide.
- [17:45]
Ryan Reynolds
The Russians with practical intelligence. But I think it's fair to say that it's in this period, and it probably is sometime around when the Soviet Union is invaded by Nazi Germany, that Fuchs starts to see Britain's alliance with Russia as a sort of permission slip to share secrets with Moscow and the Soviet archives record that Klaus Fuchs had.
- [18:09]
Klaus Fuchs
Remembered his contact from that April party.
- [18:12]
Ryan Reynolds
With the GRU officer, you know, Simon Kramer, who Fuchs knew as Johnson. And so what happens probably in June of 1941 is that Klaus Fuchs reaches out to a friend who's probably a talent spotter, who passes on a message to the gru.
- [18:30]
Klaus Fuchs
And the GRU then decides, with Fuchs.
- [18:33]
Ryan Reynolds
Kind of volunteering, raising his hand, and with his new access from his work.
- [18:39]
Klaus Fuchs
On Rudy Pyles's team working on the.
- [18:41]
Ryan Reynolds
British bomb, the GRU decides to recruit him. And it is a very interesting position, I think, for a spy to be in because as one of his biographers will state, it's interesting that Fuchs is actually stealing the secrets, or he's going to be stealing the secrets, but he's.
- [18:59]
Klaus Fuchs
Also creating them by virtue of his scientific research. So a lot of the really sensitive.
- [19:05]
Ryan Reynolds
Stuff that he's working on is the basic kind of building blocks of an atomic weapon.
- [19:13]
Klaus Fuchs
So he's actually the one creating the.
- [19:15]
Ryan Reynolds
Secrets that he's going to give to the Soviet Union.
- [19:17]
Gordon Carrera
And at this point he is going to share the fact that Britain has a secret program and that it is building or trying to build an atomic bomb. The program was previously Maud was the kind of committee that was looking after it. And then it becomes Tube Alloys is the kind of wonderfully low key code name, isn't it, for the British bomb project? I mean, clearly designed to put anyone off the scent who might be interested in the Tube Alloys project. You'd go like, nah, not interested in that. But unfortunately, if you're the Soviet Union, you now know, or you're about to know, thanks to Klaus Fuchs, that Tube Alloys is. Is Britain trying to build the bomb?
- [19:53]
Klaus Fuchs
It's not as sexy as the Manhattan Project, is it?
- [19:55]
Ryan Reynolds
The Manhattan Project sounds like a great spy thriller. Like Tube Alloys, I don't know, it sounds like something you'd buy in an.
- [20:03]
Klaus Fuchs
Aisle at Home Depot.
- [20:04]
Ryan Reynolds
Less suspicious to have those. It is less suspicious, that's true.
- [20:07]
Klaus Fuchs
But By August of 1941, Fuchs now.
- [20:10]
Ryan Reynolds
Has a GRU code name, Otto, and.
- [20:13]
Klaus Fuchs
He is traveling to London to meet with a GRU officer who he calls Alexander.
- [20:18]
Ryan Reynolds
It's this guy Simon Kramer, who he met in April back at that party in London.
- [20:24]
Klaus Fuchs
They start to meet in the evenings.
- [20:25]
Ryan Reynolds
Mostly on weekends, and they'll basically do.
- [20:28]
Klaus Fuchs
Brush passes where they'll exchange papers that are sort of wrapped in packing paper or envelopes.
- [20:33]
Ryan Reynolds
They do that at crowded bus stops.
- [20:35]
Klaus Fuchs
Or on kind of quiet residential streets. And he's handing over material that he's.
- [20:40]
Ryan Reynolds
Working on, but also probably some of the kind of bigger, sexier stuff that.
- [20:45]
Klaus Fuchs
Rudy Pyles and his team had put together.
- [20:47]
Ryan Reynolds
And I think what's really important from the Russian or the Soviet intel standpoint is that the big secret he's passing on is that an atomic bomb is both physically possible and it is, I guess you'd say, commercially or industrially feasible. And I think the Russians have their own team of physicists who are starting.
- [21:11]
Klaus Fuchs
To look at this, too.
- [21:12]
Ryan Reynolds
And I think the fact that the Brits are actually starting to build some of the infrastructure that's going to help with uranium enrichment and the fact that.
- [21:21]
Klaus Fuchs
Rudy Pyles and his team believe it's.
- [21:23]
Ryan Reynolds
Possible, that's actually really important to kind.
- [21:27]
Klaus Fuchs
Of anchor the Russian team in the way forward.
- [21:30]
Gordon Carrera
They do learn on the Russian side from other spies, like John Cairncross, one of the kind of Cambridge spies, about the existence of the program. But what Fuchs is doing is giving them the details of it, the hard physics and science which the Soviets can then use to shortcut their program. I guess that is the key point, you know, and the Soviets will accelerate what they do because they suddenly understand it's possible. And I love the Soviet name Enormous, which is their code name for their bomb building project, which gives a sign of just how big a bigger deal they think it is.
- [22:03]
Klaus Fuchs
Well, and some specific things that Fuchs would have provided that were immensely helpful.
- [22:07]
Ryan Reynolds
To the Soviets were. Well, number one, there's a practical method to sort of concentrate uranium 235.
- [22:14]
Klaus Fuchs
The amount needed for a single bomb was small.
- [22:16]
Ryan Reynolds
That was actually a huge insight because.
- [22:17]
Klaus Fuchs
In wartime, getting a massive amount of.
- [22:19]
Ryan Reynolds
Uranium to enrich could be technically challenging. Right. So if you don't need that much, that's huge. And Fugues also reports that a contract.
- [22:29]
Klaus Fuchs
Had been placed to design this kind of diffusion or enrichment plant that would be ready in Britain by the end of the year. The GRU director himself in this period.
- [22:37]
Ryan Reynolds
Describes Fuchs's intelligence as very important and kind of gives this assessment that the Brits are researching a weapon that would.
- [22:45]
Klaus Fuchs
Put humanity on the road to hell.
- [22:49]
Ryan Reynolds
So you have this kind of interesting contrast of this massive, really important intelligence.
- [22:54]
Klaus Fuchs
That Fuchs is providing. But we also see in this period.
- [22:57]
Ryan Reynolds
That he's kind of an amateur at.
- [22:59]
Klaus Fuchs
The spying game, despite his time in.
- [23:01]
Ryan Reynolds
The Communist underground in Berlin.
- [23:03]
Klaus Fuchs
So he contacts his GRU handler directly by telephone on more than one occasion.
- [23:07]
Ryan Reynolds
Which is sort of a breach of proper tradecraft.
- [23:10]
Klaus Fuchs
And a memoir actually written by one.
- [23:12]
Ryan Reynolds
Of His KGB handlers later on is going to suggest that Klaus Fuchs showed.
- [23:17]
Klaus Fuchs
Up at the Soviet embassy to find his handler once and to try to hand deliver 40 pages of notes on the state of the British atomic bomb project.
- [23:25]
Ryan Reynolds
So you have, I think, kind of in this early period.
- [23:28]
Klaus Fuchs
And we'll see how Fuchs develops out.
- [23:30]
Ryan Reynolds
Of this or sort of matures out of it. The sense that, you know, Fuchs is kind of new to the spying game. He's a theoretical physicist.
- [23:36]
Klaus Fuchs
Right.
- [23:37]
Ryan Reynolds
He hasn't been trained to do this.
- [23:38]
Gordon Carrera
No, he's following his conscience. And I love this one particular detail, which is that Rudy Pyles wife remembers that sometimes he would kind of look miserable and have this cough. And this cough is really interesting because the cough and the kind of sense of illness seems to appear whenever he's kind of been undertaking some kind of spycraft. And when he's kind of nervous or conflicted, he develops a really bad cough. And you almost feel this is some kind of, like, indication of the psychological stress he's under. Because I do think, you know, going into that psychology of the guy, I think it is really interesting because he is someone who is following his conscience. He believes this is the right thing to do, to pass these secrets of the Soviet Union. And yet he is also betraying his friends, his colleagues, the people around him, the people who've given him kind of refuge and help and supported him. And I think you can see the kind of psychological toll that that takes occasionally on him between these two different compartments of his life by the kind of cough and the fact he suddenly, they'll notice he looks really miserable and gets kind of ill and starts coughing. And that seems to come up again and again when he's under this intense pressure.
- [24:46]
Ryan Reynolds
Well, and just to make sure that.
- [24:48]
Klaus Fuchs
Listeners understand that, unlike Gordon, I'm not Klaus Fuchs sympathizer. The betrayal here is really stark, isn't it?
- [24:56]
Ryan Reynolds
Because he's living in pals home, Rudy pals wife is making meals for him, buying his clothes.
- [25:04]
Klaus Fuchs
She's kind of like a surrogate mother.
- [25:05]
Ryan Reynolds
And all the while, Klaus Fuchs is betraying all of the research that Rudy Pyles is leading for the British government.
- [25:14]
Klaus Fuchs
So the level of the betrayal there is very personal.
- [25:17]
Ryan Reynolds
It's not just these kind of faceless.
- [25:20]
Klaus Fuchs
Superiors that he's maybe, you know, getting.
- [25:22]
Ryan Reynolds
Revenge against or taking information from him. This is his one of his closest.
- [25:27]
Klaus Fuchs
Friends and the person who's literally put a roof over his head in Birmingham.
- [25:31]
Ryan Reynolds
So anyway, by 1942, his GRU handler, Simon Kramer is recalled back to Russia.
- [25:39]
Klaus Fuchs
And another emigre communist makes an introduction.
- [25:43]
Ryan Reynolds
To a young woman, codename Sonia, who is in reality Colonel Ursula Kuchinsky.
- [25:50]
Klaus Fuchs
She is a fanatical communist, a German.
- [25:53]
Ryan Reynolds
A rabid anti Nazi and also a resident. And maybe, Gordon, you could fill in.
- [25:58]
Klaus Fuchs
Some of this geography for me. Resident of great role.
- [26:00]
H
Right.
- [26:01]
Ryan Reynolds
Where According to Ben McIntyre's book about her, her scones were apparently the envy.
- [26:06]
Klaus Fuchs
Of everyone in the village and she is going to become Klaus Fuchs new handler in London. Yeah.
- [26:12]
Gordon Carrera
And Sonia, as she's known, is a kind of amazing figure who's, whose career in espionage is absolutely remarkable, kind of all around the world, not just in Britain over many years. And she's been working for the GRU under really effective cover and manages to elude British intelligence for many years. And so beyond her very good scones, I think as a spy she was kind of first class. And I'm sure we might come back to her in a later podcast. I think she'd be worth a story of her own. And it was actually her brother, Jurgen Kozinski, who'd also known Fuchs as part of that kind of Hampstead crew that we talked about earlier. Although, I mean, Fuchs himself might not have known that they were brother and sister. But yes, they start meeting out on the kind of country roads near Banbury. They never meet for more than about half an hour. They go on walks together. They never go to the same place twice. It's, you know, it's, it's now pretty good trade craft under Sonja, where for those years that they meet, he's able to pass quite a lot of detail to her, which she can then get passed back to the Soviet Union. It all has to kind of go by hand, effectively, because it's, you know, it's too much detail, all these kind of drawings and designs that she's passing.
- [27:20]
Klaus Fuchs
It does make me wonder what in the hell was in the water in Germany in the 1920s and 1930s.
- [27:25]
Ryan Reynolds
Because the number of sort of like extremely ideological lunatic communists and fascists that.
- [27:33]
Klaus Fuchs
Came out of that place, it's remarkable, isn't it?
- [27:35]
Ryan Reynolds
I mean, you have, like, so much of this story is German on German. It's just, it's remarkable. I mean, all of the top level sort of science in the world was German, right in, in this period. And everybody was also extremely ideological.
- [27:52]
Klaus Fuchs
Where are the practical people in this story, Gordon?
- [27:54]
Ryan Reynolds
They're, they're not here.
- [27:56]
Klaus Fuchs
So between 1941 and 1943, while he's.
- [27:59]
Ryan Reynolds
Being handled by Sonia, Fuchs is going to transfer almost 600 pages of copied reports, calculations, drawings, diagrams, designs for uranium enrichment. Almost a kind of step by step.
- [28:12]
Klaus Fuchs
Guide on the ongoing process of learning.
- [28:15]
Ryan Reynolds
How to build a bomb. Almost all of it's going to end up straight on Stalin's desk. And in June of 1942, Klaus Fuchs is going to take a pretty big step.
- [28:26]
Klaus Fuchs
He signs the Official Secrets act.
- [28:29]
Ryan Reynolds
And a month later he becomes a naturalized citizen and swears an oath of.
- [28:34]
Klaus Fuchs
Allegiance to the Crown.
- [28:36]
Ryan Reynolds
Just as he is betraying some of its deepest secrets. So maybe Gordon there. We take a break and we come back. We'll see how Klaus Fuchs winds up burrowing even deeper into the Second World.
- [28:48]
Klaus Fuchs
War's most secretive project.
- [28:54]
Ryan Reynolds
This episode is brought to you by.
- [28:56]
Klaus Fuchs
Our friends at NordVPN. Now, Gordon, what do you find most useful about Nord?
- [29:01]
I
David One incredibly useful feature I find is the ad blocking software that stops you being targeted. We all know about that by intrusive ads whenever you're browsing the Internet. Along with the fact NORD blocks unwanted parties tracking me, it makes me feel much safer and confident that my privacy or my privacy is protected online.
- [29:21]
Ryan Reynolds
And you know how much I care about your privacy, Gordon. And you know that one feature from Nord that I really appreciate is that.
- [29:27]
Klaus Fuchs
It also has offline protection, which works.
- [29:30]
Ryan Reynolds
Even when it is not connected, meaning.
- [29:32]
Klaus Fuchs
You can be consistently secure.
- [29:34]
I
So to stay secure online, you should take advantage of our exclusive NordVPN discount. All you need to do is go to nordvpn.com restisclassified when you sign up, you can receive a bonus four months on top of your plan. And there's no risk with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. The link's also in the episode description box.
- [29:53]
J
I'm ready for my life to change.
- [29:56]
David McCloskey
ABC Sundays. American Idol is all new. Give it your all.
- [30:00]
Gordon Carrera
Good luck. Come out with a golden ticket.
- [30:02]
J
Let's hear it.
- [30:03]
Ryan Reynolds
This is a man's world.
- [30:06]
Klaus Fuchs
I've never seen anything like it.
- [30:08]
David McCloskey
And a new chapter begins.
- [30:10]
Gordon Carrera
You're going to Hollywood.
- [30:12]
David McCloskey
Carrie Underwood joins Lionel Richie, Luke Bryan and Ryan Seacrest on American Idol News Sundays, 8, 7 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.
- [30:24]
Person B
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- [30:58]
Gordon Carrera
Welcome back. It's 1943 and Klaus Fuchs has been passing some of the most sensitive secrets of Britain's atomic weapons program to his Soviet handlers. But he's now going to get the chance to pass American secrets as well. And that's because the two sides, Britain and America's atomic weapons program, which have been largely separate, are about to come together. And I guess it's a reflection that Britain does have something to offer because it's got the lead arguably on the kind of theoretical physics, the kind of work Klaus Fuchs has been doing, but it doesn't have the infrastructure and the resources to actually build the plants and carry out the work to build a bomb. That's something that I think Britain knows America can do. But the relationship between the two countries, it's fair to say, was not altogether easy. Even though they're close wartime allies when it comes to the nuclear program, I mean, they're both kind of maneuvering around. Who knows more, who can do more, who's going to benefit after the war. It's not entirely easy, is it?
- [32:01]
Ryan Reynolds
No, it's not. It is a sort of classic mid.
- [32:03]
Klaus Fuchs
Century British conundrum, isn't it Gordon?
- [32:06]
Ryan Reynolds
To have something to offer, but none of the resources to actually make it happen. And so of course the answer is to send us a communist spy to be embedded in our atomic bomb project. It's really the gift that keeps on giving.
- [32:22]
Klaus Fuchs
That said, by 1943, the strategic situation.
- [32:25]
Ryan Reynolds
As you mentioned, is very different now. America is fully in the war. After Pearl harbor, both countries have been looking at atomic bombs. But you guys, Gordon, you do have some big problems. One is it's a massive undertaking to build one.
- [32:39]
Klaus Fuchs
You need a bunch of plants all over the country. It's very capital intensive, which is not.
- [32:43]
Ryan Reynolds
Something you have a lot of. And that infrastructure, even if you did build it in Britain, would not be safe from the Luftwaffe, right from, from German bombing.
- [32:53]
Klaus Fuchs
And so by the summer of 1943.
- [32:56]
Ryan Reynolds
The US and the UK have signed.
- [32:58]
Klaus Fuchs
A top secret agreement called the Quebec Agreement. It was not even made known to.
- [33:03]
Ryan Reynolds
The US Congress at that point. And it is a merger in effect to build a bomb. But it's a very, I'd say a.
- [33:11]
Klaus Fuchs
Lopsided merger, Gordon, maybe sort of a hostile takeover. The Americans will get to decide whether.
- [33:17]
Ryan Reynolds
And how to share relevant industrial or commercial insights with the Brits. British scientists who work on the program.
- [33:23]
Klaus Fuchs
Will waive the right to any patents.
- [33:26]
Ryan Reynolds
And so it's kind of, I think, reflective of the fact that we're bigger.
- [33:30]
Klaus Fuchs
And have more resources than you do.
- [33:32]
Gordon Carrera
We basically do all the kind of intellectual work for the relationship, and then you get to commercialize it. That's basically what the Quebec Agreement seems to me when I look back on it. You know, you take all the benefits of it, and Britain gives up all of that, but we give you all our kind of best minds. So.
- [33:47]
Ryan Reynolds
Well, basically, what you do is you just.
- [33:49]
Klaus Fuchs
You send us a bunch of Germans, right?
- [33:51]
Ryan Reynolds
So on December 3rd of 1943, Klaus Fuchs, along with Rudy Pyles, who's the leader of the British a bomb project and another chemist, they land in Norfolk, Virginia. They take a train to D.C. they meet with General Leslie Groves, who will be well known to, you know, listeners of this podcast almost certainly as Matt Damon from Oppenheimer. He is running a project for the Army Corps of Engineers, the Manhattan Engineer District.
- [34:20]
Klaus Fuchs
Its east coast headquarters is at 270.
- [34:22]
Ryan Reynolds
Broadway in New York City, and it.
- [34:24]
Klaus Fuchs
Is the Manhattan Project.
- [34:26]
Ryan Reynolds
Now, Fuchs, of course, like any good visitor to New York, he is going to stay at a Trump property. He stays at the. The Barbizon Plaza. Today. It's a Trump park condominium complex.
- [34:40]
Klaus Fuchs
When Fuchs arrives, it's not clear how.
- [34:42]
Ryan Reynolds
Long he's going to be in the States for, right? And it becomes clear pretty quickly that he's going to stay for a while. He moves into a more permanent accommodation. And General Leslie Groves, Matt Damon had been assured that everyone in the British.
- [34:58]
Klaus Fuchs
Delegation had been cleared by MI5 and.
- [35:02]
Ryan Reynolds
The appropriate security organs in your wonderful United Kingdom, and that there was a.
- [35:08]
Klaus Fuchs
Special clearance that had been, you know.
- [35:09]
Ryan Reynolds
Sort of given to everyone who was going to work in the US and so. So Klaus Fuchs, German Communist, Soviet asset, receives a card with his British affiliation and giving him unfettered access to the.
- [35:24]
Klaus Fuchs
Manhattan Project facilities in New York.
- [35:27]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, and I'm afraid this is where it gets really bad for the Brits. There's going to be a big blame game afterwards about how did Fuchs get into this program? And Groves is pretty clear that he basically demanded assurances from Britain that all these people had been security cleared. And when it all comes out, he lays the blame on Britain. I think that's kind of right. Now, what happens within MI5. And there's some great detail of this in Frank Close's book Trinity, which has kind of gone through the MI5 files which have been released. And so there's one MI5 note. Now, this isn't passed to the US authorities. And it says Fuchs is rather safer in America than in this country. And for that reason, I am rather in favour of him remaining in America, where he would be away from his English friends. And it goes on to say it would not be so easy for Fuchs to make contact with Communists in America. And so what the Americans are kind of told is it'll be very hard for him to make political contacts. But actually what the Brits are going is like, he's safer over there than back in Britain because there's so many communists he knows or he appears to be in contact with, that it's actually riskier for him to be here in the uk, better over there.
- [36:38]
Ryan Reynolds
It's like the Germans exporting Lenin during the revolution. Let's get rid of this guy. What damage could he do in Russia?
- [36:45]
Gordon Carrera
They actually say in one MI5 note, it would not appear to be desirable to mention Fuchs proclivities to the authorities in the usa. So his proclivities, which I think. I think we're talking about, is Communist proclivities. So there is an explicit kind of decision in MI5, it looks like, to not tell the Americans about some of the kind of questionable contacts he has and to effectively cover it up. So I'm afraid in terms of problems for MI5, that's the big one. Those memos and those notes which have later been declassified, show it was a pretty big screw up, I think, in letting Fuchs go over and in telling General Groves that it was all going.
- [37:30]
Ryan Reynolds
To be fine, all was well. Yes.
- [37:32]
Klaus Fuchs
It makes the special relationship feel not so special.
- [37:35]
Ryan Reynolds
I thank Gordon there for a brief moment, you know.
- [37:39]
Klaus Fuchs
So Fuchs is in Manhattan.
- [37:41]
Ryan Reynolds
He's doing exciting work like calculating kind of the effectiveness of components. But on February 5th of 1944, it's a very wintry Saturday in Manhattan. Fuchs has been in the city for a few months and he, before he departed London, had set up a meet.
- [38:02]
Klaus Fuchs
With a new handler.
- [38:04]
Ryan Reynolds
He has actually been handed over from the GRU and his contact with Sonia in London to a new handler, new.
- [38:15]
Klaus Fuchs
Agent Runner in New York, who is.
- [38:18]
Ryan Reynolds
Going to handle the case going forward. And so Fuchs heads there on this kind of cold Saturday to go meet.
- [38:26]
Klaus Fuchs
With his new handler.
- [38:27]
I
Yeah.
- [38:27]
Gordon Carrera
And it's interesting, isn't it, because he's being handed over from the GRU to the nkvd, the bit of the kgb. And it looks like that's partly they've got better networks, but crucially it's because a decision's been taken in the Soviet Union that this is so important to get intelligence on the Western, the US and the British atomic weapons program that it's been kind of centralized. And the nkvd, the kind of the KGB forerunner, has been told, you are in charge. You have primacy over this.
- [38:55]
Ryan Reynolds
That's right. And so Klaus Fuchs heads to a.
- [38:57]
Klaus Fuchs
Place on Henry Street. It's on the Lower east side of Manhattan. Again, all the logistics had been arranged in advance.
- [39:03]
Ryan Reynolds
Now Klaus is so paranoid that he.
- [39:06]
Klaus Fuchs
Won'T even ask strangers on the street for directions.
- [39:09]
Ryan Reynolds
So he takes the subway, comes out.
- [39:12]
Klaus Fuchs
He sees a short, full faced man in a dark suit and an overcoat. And the man has a pair of gloves.
- [39:18]
Ryan Reynolds
He's wearing one. He's also carrying a pair. And Fuchs, in a piece of tradecraft here that seems somewhat bizarre because you might notice it right away, has a book and he's carrying a green tennis ball.
- [39:32]
Klaus Fuchs
He does not have any of the.
- [39:34]
Ryan Reynolds
Other things that you need to play a game of tennis, namely the racket.
- [39:38]
Klaus Fuchs
And he crosses the street toward this.
- [39:40]
Ryan Reynolds
Man and the man says, what's the way to Chinatown?
- [39:44]
Klaus Fuchs
And the guy has got a strong Philly accent, which I can't do.
- [39:48]
Ryan Reynolds
I can only do British accents, Gordon or Edinburgh accents. But this guy from Philly, he goes by Raymond, which is a great, great Philly name. And everything has gone according to plan, except that the Philly guy, Raymond, was.
- [40:03]
Klaus Fuchs
Supposed to carry a single glove, not a pair.
- [40:05]
Ryan Reynolds
But it's okay.
- [40:06]
Klaus Fuchs
Contact has been made.
- [40:08]
Ryan Reynolds
And the guy refers to Klaus Fuchs.
- [40:12]
Klaus Fuchs
By his codename, Rest, which is his.
- [40:14]
Ryan Reynolds
Kind of KGB code name. Fuchs says, don't call me that, call me by my name. And Raymond, probably worth setting him up a bit here. He's this kind of sad eyed, timid Philly bachelor named Harry Gold, who's the son of Russian Jewish immigrants. And he's a kind of short, overweight guy who's become a true believer communist.
- [40:36]
Klaus Fuchs
His family was immiserated during the Great Depression. He's also got a background in chemical engineering.
- [40:41]
Ryan Reynolds
Now, critically here, I mean, he's not.
- [40:43]
Klaus Fuchs
A KGB officer, right?
- [40:46]
Ryan Reynolds
But he is a kind of courier.
- [40:48]
Klaus Fuchs
And legman for the KGB in the US So Raymond and Fuchs walk together down the street.
- [40:55]
Ryan Reynolds
You know, Raymond's trying to help Klaus relax.
- [40:58]
Klaus Fuchs
They take the subway, then a taxi uptown.
- [41:00]
Ryan Reynolds
They wind up at a restaurant on Third Avenue. Conversation's very sparse. Fuchs is very uncomfortable.
- [41:05]
Klaus Fuchs
They could be spotted.
- [41:06]
Ryan Reynolds
And they're in this restaurant, they're walking around.
- [41:09]
Klaus Fuchs
After dinner, Fuchs starts to describe his.
- [41:11]
Ryan Reynolds
Work kind of outlines the nature of.
- [41:13]
Klaus Fuchs
The Manhattan Project as he understands it.
- [41:15]
Ryan Reynolds
You know, you've got the sites in.
- [41:16]
Klaus Fuchs
Tennessee and in Berkeley and Hanford and.
- [41:19]
Ryan Reynolds
This place called Site Y in New Mexico, which is mystery site, and they.
- [41:26]
Klaus Fuchs
Lay out the tradecraft for future meetings.
- [41:28]
Ryan Reynolds
You know, Fuchs, I think by this point, it's fair to say Gordon has matured a bit in his understanding of proper tradecraft, probably because of the tutelage.
- [41:38]
Klaus Fuchs
From Sonja back in London.
- [41:40]
Ryan Reynolds
So Fuchs, I think, is in many.
- [41:43]
Klaus Fuchs
Respects actually more advanced than Raymond Harry Gold in that.
- [41:47]
Ryan Reynolds
So, you know, Fuchs says, let's not meet in any place twice.
- [41:49]
Klaus Fuchs
No restaurants. We'll keep it as brief as possible. Fuchs doesn't deliver any material at the.
- [41:55]
Ryan Reynolds
First meeting, but soon he's going to start to provide, you know, documents, diagrams, sketches, that kind of thing. And the way this works on the.
- [42:02]
Klaus Fuchs
KGB side is that after the meetings.
- [42:05]
Ryan Reynolds
Pretty much right after, Raymond goes and meets with someone named John, who is.
- [42:10]
Klaus Fuchs
Not John, but is in fact a.
- [42:12]
Ryan Reynolds
Russian, a KGB officer who works out.
- [42:15]
Klaus Fuchs
Of the Russian consulate in New York.
- [42:17]
Ryan Reynolds
And then all the information gets passed on to Moscow. Now, I think it is interesting you.
- [42:23]
Klaus Fuchs
Mentioned this kind of Passover handover from.
- [42:25]
Ryan Reynolds
The GRU to the kgb, and it is fascinating now to look back at these memoirs.
- [42:32]
Klaus Fuchs
What does seem apparent is that the GRU did not provide the KGB with a lot of the information that Fuchs had provided in London. And Fuchs is irritated by this because.
- [42:45]
Ryan Reynolds
A lot of the stuff that Harry Gold Raymond is going to ask for.
- [42:50]
Klaus Fuchs
He had already provided in London.
- [42:52]
Ryan Reynolds
Right. And it's coming from the fact that.
- [42:53]
Klaus Fuchs
He'S getting tasked by a new service.
- [42:56]
Ryan Reynolds
And the KGB was paranoid about the GRU attempting to actually swoop back in and maybe take the case back over. So you kind of get this insight into the interservice rivalry that I think.
- [43:09]
Klaus Fuchs
Really plagued the Soviets at this time.
- [43:11]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, there was a lot of rivalry, and I think there still is between the GRU and the kind of foreign intelligence directorates of the KGB and its predecessors and successors. So, yeah, that absolutely makes sense. But it's also. So I think that the KGB are slightly more professional, but Harry Gold is a kind of interesting character because they're also going to use him to contact some other spies that they've got out there in the US which. Which also adds to the kind of, I think, some of the problems for him and what happens to him later. But at this point, it's working pretty successfully in that they're able to keep meeting. They're able to keep passing secrets. During this period when Fuchs is in New York and it's not quite clear where he's going to go to next.
- [43:49]
Ryan Reynolds
Well, and he's going to meet with Raymond on a monthly basis while he's in New York, these kind of fleeting encounters in dark, usually down market areas of the city.
- [43:58]
Klaus Fuchs
Klaus will hand over documents.
- [44:00]
Ryan Reynolds
He'll again, he'll find Raymond to be kind of too casual, kind of sloppy. Klaus will later say that he was irritated because Raymond had a habit of.
- [44:09]
Klaus Fuchs
While they were walking, you'd very obviously.
- [44:11]
Ryan Reynolds
Look backwards to see if they're being tailed, which is sort of a. A no, no.
- [44:15]
Klaus Fuchs
And what Klaus is doing in this.
- [44:17]
Ryan Reynolds
Period is he is exploiting a seemingly.
- [44:21]
Klaus Fuchs
Sort of mundane loophole in the way.
- [44:23]
Ryan Reynolds
That the Manhattan Project is actually managing documents. If listeners will recall our pod a while back on Adolf Tolkachev, who was.
- [44:33]
Klaus Fuchs
A spy that the CIA ran in Moscow.
- [44:35]
Ryan Reynolds
The way Tolkachev got a lot of documents out to be photographed was just kind of exploiting these random banal loopholes.
- [44:42]
Klaus Fuchs
In the way documents are managed.
- [44:44]
Ryan Reynolds
Now, Klaus Fuchs is going to do just that because when he's working inside these Manhattan Project facilities, he actually is.
- [44:52]
Klaus Fuchs
Producing a lot of his calculations, a lot of his material longhand. And then that material is handed over.
- [44:58]
Ryan Reynolds
To typists who type it up, give.
- [45:01]
Klaus Fuchs
Specific numbers to those documents for distribution to specific individuals.
- [45:06]
Ryan Reynolds
But the typists hand the long hand back to Fuchs when he's done with it. So he actually gives these copies to.
- [45:14]
Klaus Fuchs
Raymond, his KGB handler. And if Fuchs wasn't the author of.
- [45:18]
Ryan Reynolds
Something he passed, he would just take the document home, copy it longhand, and then hand that to Raymond and the kgb.
- [45:25]
Gordon Carrera
It goes back to the point, though, that it's the power of Fuchs being the man originating the secrets. You know, he's not just someone who's having to kind of steal them from a safe when no one's looking. They're effectively a lot of them are his documents or ones that he should have access to. And that's why he's able to get such sensitive material and hand it to his contact in New York just to.
- [45:43]
Ryan Reynolds
Set up a bit of, you know, Fuchs the man.
- [45:45]
Klaus Fuchs
I mean, he's basically living as a recluse, right?
- [45:47]
Ryan Reynolds
I mean, he is in a massive new, at that point, modern city that was not under fear of bombing by the Luftwaffe. And so there's, you know, material, plenty.
- [46:00]
Klaus Fuchs
He doesn't really know anyone.
- [46:02]
Ryan Reynolds
The British delegation is small he's living alone in an apartment on the Upper west side. And in this period, someone describing his.
- [46:10]
Klaus Fuchs
Social graces said in talking, Fuchs's spontaneous emission is very low, but his induced.
- [46:16]
Ryan Reynolds
Emission is quite satisfactory. So in other words, he only speaks.
- [46:20]
Klaus Fuchs
When he's spoken to kind of character.
- [46:22]
Ryan Reynolds
And he's having these meetings with Raymond.
- [46:25]
Klaus Fuchs
On a monthly basis and kind of probably one of his few social outlets.
- [46:29]
Ryan Reynolds
Is meeting with his handler. Now, it is a period here where toward, I guess really the middle of 44, his work in New York is actually coming to an end.
- [46:39]
Klaus Fuchs
Like they're kind of running out of useful things for Fuchs to do.
- [46:44]
Ryan Reynolds
And what then all of a sudden.
- [46:46]
Klaus Fuchs
Becomes clear is that his next assignment.
- [46:48]
Ryan Reynolds
Is going to be either back in.
- [46:50]
Klaus Fuchs
England, God help him, back to obscurity.
- [46:53]
Ryan Reynolds
Or going deeper into the American atom bomb project by going out to this sort of mysterious site Y in New Mexico. And on August 5th of 1944, Fuchs.
- [47:08]
Klaus Fuchs
Is scheduled to have a meeting with Raymond.
- [47:11]
Ryan Reynolds
He misses the meeting and then he misses the backup meeting and he goes missing. And Raymond and the KGB in August of 1944 have absolutely no idea where.
- [47:24]
Klaus Fuchs
In the world is Klaus Fuchs.
- [47:26]
Gordon Carrera
And so with that, let's leave it for this time with Klaus, Fuchs mysteriously disappeared. And next time we can find out where he goes. And he's going into the absolute heart of America's secret nuclear weapons program where he's going to be able to witness that first test of a bomb and provide some of its deepest secrets to the Soviet Union. See you next time.
- [47:49]
Ryan Reynolds
See you next time.
- [47:54]
J
Hi there. I'm Al Murray, co host of we have ways of making you talk, the world's premier Second World War history podcast.
- [48:00]
H
From Goal Hanger and I'm James Holland, best selling World War II historian. And together we tell the best stories from the war. This time we're doing a deep dive into the last major attack by the Nazis on the west, the Battle of the Bulge.
- [48:15]
J
And what's so fascinating about this story is we've been able to show how quite a lot of the popular history about this battle is kind of the wrong way round, isn't it, Jim? The whole thing is a disaster from the start. Even Hitler's plans for the attack are insane and divorced from reality.
- [48:28]
H
Well, you're so right. But what we can do is celebrate this as an American success story for the ages. From their generals at the top to the gis on the front line. Full of gumption and grit, the bold should be remembered as a great victory for the usa.
- [48:42]
J
And if this sounds good to you, we've got a short taste for you here. Search we have ways, wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks.
- [48:54]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah.
- [48:54]
H
Anyway, so who is Overstay Van Fuhrer? Joachim Piper.
- [48:58]
J
But I see his jaunty hat and I just think skull and crossbones. Well, I see his reputation and I think, you know, you might be a handsome devil, but the emphasis is on the devil bit rather than that.
- [49:08]
H
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, be that is May. He's 29 years old and he's got, he's got a very interesting career really because he comes from a, you know, a pretty right wing family, let's face it. He's joined the SS at a pretty early, early stage. He's very. International socialism. He's also been Himmler's adjutant. Yeah, he took a little bit of time off in the summer of 1940 to go and fight with, with the 1st Waffen SS Panzer Division.
- [49:30]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah.
- [49:30]
H
Did pretty well. Went back to being Himmler's adjutant, then went off and commanded troops in, in the Eastern Front. Rose up to be a pretty young regimental commander. I mean, not many people that age, which is sort of. Colonel.
- [49:43]
Ryan Reynolds
Yes.
- [49:44]
J
I, you see, what must it have been like if you're in, if, if Himmler's adjutant turns up and he's been posted to you as an officer, do you think? Well, he only got that job because of, because of his connections. For Piper, it must have been always, he's always having to prove himself, surely, because he's, he has turned up. He's not worked his way through the ranks of the Waffen ss. He's dolloped in having come from head office, as it were. It must be a peculiar position to be in. Right. He's got lots to prove. Right. That's what I'm saying.
- [50:11]
H
Yeah. And he's, he's, he's from a sort of middle class background as well.
- [50:15]
J
Yeah.
- [50:15]
H
But he's got an older brother who's had mental illness and attempted suicide and never, never really recovers and actually has died in, of TB eventually in 1942. He's got a younger brother called Horst who's also joined the SS&TOTEN cop Verbanda and died in a never really properly explained accident in Poland in 1941. Right. Piper gains a sort of growing reputation on the Eastern Front for being kind of very inspiring, fearless, you know, obviously courageous, you know, all the guys love him, all that kind of stuff. But he's also orders the entire, the destruction of entire village of Krasnaya Polyana in a kind of revenge killing by Russian partisans. Yeah. And his unit becomes known as the Blowtorch Battalion because of his penchant for touching Russian villages. So he's. He's got all the gongs. He's got Iron Cross, second class, first Class Cross of Gold, Knight's Cross. Did very well at Kursk briefly in Northern Italy, actually, then in Ukraine, then in Normandy. He suffers a nervous breakdown. Yeah. And he's relieved of his command on the 2nd of August, and he's hospitalized from September to October. So he's not in command during Operation Lutech. And then he rejoins 1st SS Panzer Regiment as its commander again in October 1944. It's really, really odd.
- [51:26]
J
I mean, but isn't that interesting, though, because if you're a lancer, if you're an ordinary soldier, you're not allowed to have a nervous breakdown. You don't get hospitalized, you don't get time off. How you could interpret this is. This is a sort of Nazi princeling, isn't he? Is Himmler's adjutant. He's demonstrated the necessary Nazi zeal on the Eastern front and all this sort of stuff. It comes to Normandy where they. Where they're losing. Why else would he have a nervous breakdown? He's shown all the zeal and application in the Nazi manner up to this point, and they're losing, you know, and. Because he's a knob, you know, because he's well connected, he gets to be hospitalized. If he has a nervous breakdown, he isn't told like an ordinary German soldier. There's no such thing as combat fatigue, mate. Go back to work.
- [52:03]
H
Yes. And it's a nervous breakdown, not combat fatigue.
- [52:05]
J
Well, yes, of course, but.
- [52:07]
H
But you know what SS soldier said of him? Piper was the most dynamic man I ever met. He just got things done.
- [52:13]
J
Yeah.
- [52:13]
H
You get this image I have of him of having this kind of sort of slightly manic energy. Yeah, kind of. He's virulently National Socialist. He's got this great reputation. He's damned if anyone's going to tarnish it. You know, he's a. He's a driver, you know, all those things.
- [52:28]
J
He's trying to make the will triumph, isn't he? He's working towards the Fuhrer. He's imbued with. He knows what's expected of him. Extreme, extreme violence and cruelty and pushing his men on. I mean, he's sort of. He's the Fuhrer Princip writ large, isn't he, as a. As an SS officer, which is why cruelty and extreme violence are bundled in to wherever he goes, basically.