39. Iran vs Israel: Inside the Shadow War (Ep 1)

Summary

Summary of "The Rest Is Classified" Episode 39: "Iran vs Israel: Inside the Shadow War"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Rest Is Classified
• Hosts: David McCloskey and Gordon Carrera
• Episode: 39. Iran vs Israel: Inside the Shadow War (Ep 1)
• Release Date: April 20, 2025
• Description: Hosted by former CIA analyst David McCloskey and veteran security correspondent Gordon Carrera, this episode delves into the secretive conflict between Iran and Israel, focusing on real-life spy stories, intelligence operations, and the geopolitical implications shaping global events.

---

Introduction to the Shadow War

The episode kicks off by addressing a recent high-profile assassination: Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, an eminent Iranian nuclear scientist, was murdered on November 27, 2020. This event underscores the escalating covert conflict between Iran and Israel, often referred to as the "shadow war."

Notable Quote:

• Gordon Carrera [01:38]: "Terrorists murdered an eminent Iranian scientist today. This cowardice with serious indications of an Israeli role shows desperate warmongering."

---

Who is Mohsen Fakhrizadeh?

Mohsen Fakhrizadeh is portrayed as a pivotal figure in Iran's nuclear ambitions, often likened to "Iran's Oppenheimer." His dual role as a public physics professor and a secretive brigadier general in the Revolutionary Guards highlights the intricate blend of academia and military prowess driving Iran's nuclear program.

Key Points:

• Background: Born in the late 1950s or early 1960s into a conservative Shia family, Fakhrizadeh became deeply entrenched in Iran's nuclear ambitions post the 1979 revolution.
• Roles: Publicly, he was a respected physics professor; covertly, he led Iran's nuclear weaponization efforts.
• Influence: As head of the Organization of Defensive Innovation and Research (SPND), Fakhrizadeh was instrumental in advancing Iran's nuclear capabilities.

Notable Quotes:

• David McCloskey [03:38]: "He was the father of Iran's nuclear program... Shrouded in mystery as he worked... He has had a tremendous profound impact on the Middle East from the shadows."
• Gordon Carrera [14:32]: "As Oppenheimer is building the bomb at Los Alamos, he's continuing to commute to Berkeley to give lectures."

---

The Evolution of Iran's Nuclear Program

The podcast outlines the trajectory of Iran's nuclear ambitions, emphasizing the strategic shifts following international scrutiny and regional conflicts.

Key Points:

• Early Developments: Iran's civilian nuclear program began pre-revolution but shifted towards weaponization in the 1980s and 1990s amidst tensions like the Iran-Iraq War.
• Natanz Facility Exposure (2003): The revelation of the Natanz uranium enrichment facility marked global concern, prompting Iran to disperse its nuclear activities to avoid direct assaults.
• Fakhrizadeh's Role: Tasked with safeguarding and advancing the program, Fakhrizadeh orchestrated the underground expansion, ensuring Iran's capability to develop nuclear weapons without overt escalation.

Notable Quotes:

• Gordon Carrera [05:47]: "Iran trying to keep pushing as far as it can, but without inviting an attack."
• David McCloskey [08:23]: “Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, before his death, was Iran's Oppenheimer.”

---

Israel's Covert Offensive: Mossad's Strategy

Israel, perceiving Iran's nuclear advancements as an existential threat, opted for a covert approach to undermine and stall Iran's progress without triggering open warfare.

Key Points:

• Leadership Under Menachem "Mayim" Degan: Appointed by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2002, Degan spearheaded the aggressive Mossad tactics aimed at neutralizing key figures in Iran's nuclear program.
• Targeted Killings: Between 2007 and 2012, Mossad conducted a series of assassinations targeting Iranian scientists, including Fakhrizadeh, to disrupt the nuclear agenda.
• Operational Tactics: Utilized advanced methods such as booby-trapped vehicles, remote-controlled attacks, and sophisticated espionage techniques to eliminate targets without direct confrontation.

Notable Quotes:

• David McCloskey [37:14]: "Israel has to go after these targets through assassination to prevent a full-fledged war."
• Gordon Carrera [38:04]: "Killing a few targeted people can slow their progress and avoid a war... slower but less destructive."

---

The Impact on Iran's Scientific Community

Mossad's relentless targeting created a pervasive atmosphere of fear and instability within Iran's nuclear research circles.

Key Points:

• Heightened Security: Scientists involved in the nuclear program were placed under constant surveillance and protection, severely limiting their freedom and disrupting their work.
• Chilling Effect: The threat of assassination led to reduced morale, increased defection rates, and a slowdown in collaborative efforts within the scientific community.
• Operational Challenges: Fakhrizadeh's dual roles made him a high-value target, symbolizing the effectiveness and reach of Mossad's operations.

Notable Quotes:

• David McCloskey [46:22]: "They have bodyguards, cops around their homes... they're being put under 24/7 protection because they've had friends and colleagues being killed."

---

Ethical and Geopolitical Implications

The podcast delves into the complex ethical landscape surrounding targeted assassinations in international conflicts.

Key Points:

• Ethical Dilemmas: Assassinating civilian scientists blurs the lines between combatants and non-combatants, raising questions about the legitimacy and morality of such actions.
• International Law: The lack of a declared war complicates the legality of these targeted killings under international norms and humanitarian laws.
• Broader Implications: These covert actions risk escalating tensions and potentially triggering retaliatory measures, further destabilizing the region.

Notable Quotes:

• Gordon Carrera [39:34]: "Imagine an AI researcher being targeted by a foreign power..."
• David McCloskey [40:15]: "Israel collapsed the distinction between an enemy combatant and a civilian."

---

The Technological Edge: Advanced Espionage Techniques

The episode highlights the sophisticated technological methods employed by Mossad to execute their missions seamlessly.

Key Points:

• Robotic Machine Guns and AI: Utilized cutting-edge technology to conduct precise and remote operations, minimizing risks to operatives.
• Satellite Assistance: Leveraged satellite data for real-time intelligence and surveillance, enhancing operational accuracy.
• Stealth and Efficiency: Mossad's ability to carry out missions without public acknowledgment showcases their expertise in stealth operations.

Notable Quotes:

• Gordon Carrera [07:16]: "It does sound like something out of sci-fi... something that happened five years ago."

---

Concluding Insights and Future Prospects

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the enduring nature of the Iran-Israel shadow war and its implications for global security.

Key Points:

• Ongoing Conflict: The assassination of Fakhrizadeh marks a significant milestone, but the covert operations are expected to continue as long as Iran pursues nuclear capabilities.
• Potential Escalation: With Iran's nuclear program showing no signs of complete cessation, the likelihood of either diplomatic breakthroughs or military confrontations remains high.
• Looking Ahead: Future episodes promise to explore the intricate details of the operations, the technological innovations driving espionage, and the broader geopolitical ramifications.

Notable Quotes:

• Gordon Carrera [50:17]: "We'll look at how the Israelis decide to go after the Iranian nuclear program and their adventurous ways to stop it."

---

Final Thoughts

Episode 39 of "The Rest Is Classified" offers an in-depth exploration of the covert strategies deployed by Israel to counter Iran's nuclear ambitions. Through the lens of Mohsen Fakhrizadeh's life and assassination, the podcast unravels the complexities of modern espionage, the ethical quandaries of targeted killings, and the precarious balance of power in the Middle East. For listeners fascinated by spy narratives, international security, and geopolitical strategies, this episode provides a compelling and informative deep dive into one of the most critical shadow wars of our time.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Gordon Carrera [01:38]: "Terrorists murdered an eminent Iranian scientist today. This cowardice with serious indications of an Israeli role shows desperate warmongering."
• David McCloskey [03:38]: "He was the father of Iran's nuclear program... Shrouded in mystery as he worked... He has had a tremendous profound impact on the Middle East from the shadows."
• Gordon Carrera [14:32]: "As Oppenheimer is building the bomb at Los Alamos, he's continuing to commute to Berkeley to give lectures."
• David McCloskey [37:14]: "Israel has to go after these targets through assassination to prevent a full-fledged war."
• Gordon Carrera [38:04]: "Killing a few targeted people can slow their progress and avoid a war... slower but less destructive."
• David McCloskey [46:22]: "They have bodyguards, cops around their homes... they're being put under 24/7 protection because they've had friends and colleagues being killed."
• Gordon Carrera [39:34]: "Imagine an AI researcher being targeted by a foreign power..."
• David McCloskey [40:15]: "Israel collapsed the distinction between an enemy combatant and a civilian."
• Gordon Carrera [07:16]: "It does sound like something out of sci-fi... something that happened five years ago."
• Gordon Carrera [50:17]: "We'll look at how the Israelis decide to go after the Iranian nuclear program and their adventurous ways to stop it."

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the critical discussions and insights presented in Episode 39 of "The Rest Is Classified," providing listeners and non-listeners alike with a thorough understanding of the covert dynamics between Iran and Israel.

Transcript

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[David McCloskey]

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[Gordon Carrera]

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[David McCloskey]

Foreign.

[Gordon Carrera]

Terrorists murdered an eminent Iranian scientist today. This cowardice with serious indications of an Israeli role shows desperate warmongering. The Zionists seek to intensify and increase pressure on Iran to wage a full blown war. We will descend like lightning on the killers of this oppressed martyr and we will make them regret their actions. Well, welcome to the Rest is classified. I'm Gordon Carrera.

[David McCloskey]

And I'm David McCloskey.

[Unknown]

And those were the fighting words of.

[Gordon Carrera]

An Iranian government official after the assassination on 27 November 2020 of a man called Mohsen Fakhrizadeh. He may not be a household name, but he is an important man. And this week we're going to look at his story and what it tells us about Iran's nuclear program and the efforts to stop it. And my pronunciation perhaps of his name. Go. What do you, how do you rate it?

[David McCloskey]

Your Persian accent during the reading, I think left much to be desired.

[Gordon Carrera]

It was an Anglo Persian.

[David McCloskey]

It's a, it's an Anglo, an Anglo Persian accent. That's right. And I, I have had some extended conversations with Persians about how you actually pronounce Mohsen Fakrizate, his name. And I've been told my pronunciation is very poor.

[Gordon Carrera]

Okay.

[David McCloskey]

It's. It's hard.

[Unknown]

I think it's hard for us Anglos.

[David McCloskey]

To get the name.

[Unknown]

The name right.

[David McCloskey]

So we will.

[Gordon Carrera]

It's the closest we'll go with.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I think that's.

[David McCloskey]

I think that's pretty close. I think you're putting the wrong emphasis.

[Unknown]

On the wrong syllable in there.

[David McCloskey]

But it's not. It's. I think it's close enough. It's close enough.

[Gordon Carrera]

So who was he? Why. Why are we talking about him and not just the pronunciation of his name, though?

[David McCloskey]

That's right. Well, so as you teed up, Gordon, in your.

[Unknown]

Your sort of C minus Persian accent during the reading.

[David McCloskey]

Thanks.

[Unknown]

Mohsen Fakhrizadeh was an Iranian nuclear scientist.

[David McCloskey]

And I think it's fair to say that he wasn't. We, we.

[Unknown]

We know, Gordon, that we love an Oppenheimer reference on.

[David McCloskey]

The rest is classified.

[Gordon Carrera]

We do.

[David McCloskey]

And I think here it's actually apt. I think we could say that Mohsen.

[Unknown]

Fakhrizadeh, before his death, was Iran's Oppenheimer.

[David McCloskey]

He was the. The father of Iran's nuclear program, the brains behind it, from both, frankly, a scientific standpoint, but also an organizational and kind of bureaucratic standpoint. And he was maybe like the actual Oppenheimer out at Los Alamos, sort of.

[Unknown]

Shrouded in mystery as he worked. I mean, even to his own family.

[David McCloskey]

But Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, and the reason we're talking about the man today and ultimately.

[Unknown]

The operation that will claim his life.

[David McCloskey]

Is that he has had a tremendous.

[Unknown]

Profound impact on the Middle east from the shadows.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right, because I think he gives us a glimpse into Iran's nuclear program and that kind of shadowy aspect of this conflict. It's not quite a war, but it is a conflict between Israel and Iran, which has been going on for decades, really, and it's been running pretty hot in the last year or two. You've had drone attacks, we've had missile attacks, we've had air attacks between Israel and Iran almost for the first time kind of directly engaging in striking each other as well as Iran's proxies, like Hezbollah seeing their pagers explode in Lebanon. But behind all of that recent activity is this question of Iran's nuclear program and the issue of whether Iran, as its adversaries, like Israel say, is going for a nuclear bomb. The efforts to stop that and the different ways, often covert sometimes, moreover, in which Israel and others have been trying to stop them. And that's something which I think is. Is. Has Been in the news, but is going to be in the news in the next few months because it does look like it's coming to a head again. And I think it's quite likely that this year there's either going to be a diplomatic deal over Iran's nuclear program or there's going to be a military strike on the nuclear program, I think by Israel and maybe by the US as well. So it is a very important story in the Middle East. And Fakhris A Day is in the middle of it, isn't he?

[Unknown]

That's right.

[David McCloskey]

And, you know, I think, Gordon, I mean, so often in these headlines and these stories about the shadow war between, you know, Tel Aviv and Tehran or.

[Unknown]

Between Tel Aviv and Iran, sort of.

[David McCloskey]

Clients or partners or proxies in the region, we. We get a lot of the what. So we understand what's happening, be it.

[Unknown]

Missile volleys, drone volleys, back and forth, be it those pager attacks you mentioned. But we don't often get a lot of the how.

[David McCloskey]

We don't really understand exactly how both.

[Unknown]

Sides conduct this conflict.

[David McCloskey]

And I think the Fakriza Day assassination because of some of the information that.

[Unknown]

Has come out since, I mean, in the five years since. We actually have a really interesting case study in how the Israelis operate inside.

[David McCloskey]

Iran and how the Israelis think about this shadow conflict, the risks they're willing to take, the sort of operations they're willing to conduct, and ultimately the threats that they feel from Iran, from its nuclear program, sort of as personified by a man like Mohsen Fakhrizadeh.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right. And he's an extraordinarily important figure. But also the operation to kill him is an astounding one, isn't it, in terms of the details of the way it's done? It's a story with. With robotic killer machine guns. Talk about artificial intelligence. I mean, it does sound like something out of sci fi, doesn't it?

[David McCloskey]

Well, it really does. And what's so interesting about this story is sort of a robotic machine gun operated by satellite, assisted by artificial intelligence. I mean, that is the weapon that the Israelis will choose to, you know, to use in this operation. And we're not talking about sci fi. We're not talking about the future. We're talking about something that happened five years ago.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, almost.

[David McCloskey]

Right. And it's hard. I mean, there's so many interesting questions of sort of spy craft and espionage and how you conduct these operations. But there's also a big question, I.

[Unknown]

Think, around whether these sorts of operations.

[David McCloskey]

I mean, there's the whole question of whether they're justified.

[Unknown]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

And then there's the question of, well.

[Unknown]

Do they achieve their goals?

[David McCloskey]

You know, do they.

[Unknown]

Do they practically help the Israelis achieve.

[David McCloskey]

Security or political goals? Which I think is a sort of evergreen question that hangs over this type of work, and one that will. Will be absolutely critical to understanding what.

[Unknown]

Impact the hit on Mohsen Fakhrizadeh has.

[David McCloskey]

And maybe we should start with him, Gordon, and just kind of dig into the man and his life and kind.

[Unknown]

Of set him up to get going.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. And there isn't much on him, is there? I mean, he was genuinely a pretty shadowy figure, even by the standards of nuclear scientists and people in the center of Iran. I mean, few pictures, few details.

[David McCloskey]

Netanyahu, the prime Minister of Israel, called Fakhrizadeh the shadow man in Iran's nuclear effort. And it's fair to say that, I mean, most of what we know about the man really does come after his.

[Unknown]

Death or is leaked by the Israelis.

[David McCloskey]

Right. So just to kind of set up the biography, I think we've got some interesting facts and bits on him, but.

[Unknown]

I think the picture really is not fully complete.

[David McCloskey]

I mean, the first photos of the.

[Unknown]

Man only come out really in 2018.

[David McCloskey]

So a couple years before he said, which is really remarkable in an age.

[Unknown]

Of so much just digital content out.

[David McCloskey]

There that the first photos come out just a couple years before he's killed.

[Unknown]

And I will say in these photos.

[David McCloskey]

If you're trying to get a sense of what this guy looks like, he's very unsmiling, he's well bearded. I think he looks like a very dower, sort of disappointed Persian grandfather would be how I would.

[Unknown]

I would urge listeners to picture him, but we do know a few things about him.

[David McCloskey]

So he's born in like the late.

[Unknown]

50S, maybe early 60s.

[David McCloskey]

Again, not.

[Unknown]

We don't have precise information.

[David McCloskey]

We have contradictory information about when he's born. He's born in com to a conservative, pious Shia family. And so by the time of the.

[Unknown]

Revolution in 1979, he's in his late teens.

[David McCloskey]

Right. So in this kind of very formative period now, he is, I think, ideologically.

[Unknown]

Devoted to the Islamic State. I mean, he's a true believer. Right.

[David McCloskey]

He spends time each morning studying scripture and Islamic philosophy. And he'll become a member of the.

[Unknown]

Revolutionary Guards in the aftermath of 1979.

[Gordon Carrera]

And we should probably explain what the Revolutionary Guards are. They are an enormously powerful group within Iran, set up after the revolution in 79 to defend the revolution. They're a military group, but separate from the regular armed forces, and they report directly to the supreme leader. They've got militias at home to enforce power. They've got an external wing which runs all these proxy groups in places like Lebanon and Syria and Iraq. But they also run chunks of the Iranian economy, and they're hugely influential within government. So it's a kind of elite within the elite, isn't it? And he's very much part of that.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think the economic sprawl is also a fascinating piece because usually I would say most of us in.

[Unknown]

The west, when we encounter the name.

[David McCloskey]

The Revolutionary Guards were. We're oftentimes reading articles about particular pieces of the.

[Unknown]

Of the irgc.

[David McCloskey]

This, this Revolutionary Guard corps that are.

[Unknown]

Sort of expeditionary abroad and very engaged in military activity.

[David McCloskey]

But the reality of the Revolutionary Guards.

[Unknown]

Is that it is.

[David McCloskey]

It controls a massive amount of Iran's.

[Unknown]

Economic activity as well, and is one.

[David McCloskey]

Of the most powerful institutions inside Iran in even, you know, sectors like construction.

[Unknown]

Or engineering or things like that.

[David McCloskey]

Right. So very sprawling, influential group. Now, one kind of interesting detail that we can glean from the photos is that Fakhrizadeh wears a ring. And as a symbol of his devotion, I guess, to the revolution, he's got a silver ring with a large oval, kind of red. Is it pronounced Agate? Gordon Agate. How does one pronounce this word? I've looked at it.

[Gordon Carrera]

How do you want to do it?

[David McCloskey]

However you want to.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, you do it however you want to. I'm not going to correct you.

[David McCloskey]

The key here is not my terrible pronunciation of that stone. It's that it's the same type of ring worn by the Supreme Leader of Iran and by General Qassim Soleimani, who had been the head of the IRGC's Expeditionary Force before he was killed in a US strike back in 2020. Now, like so many Iranians, Mohsen Fakhrezadeh.

[Unknown]

He'S also an avid reader of classic poetry, Hafez and Rumi.

[David McCloskey]

This is a big focus in Persian culture is this type of sort of epic poetry. So he's an avid reader of that. And Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, he's a physics professor by training who is going to earn a degree in nuclear physics from Isfahan.

[Unknown]

University of Technology, and then he's going.

[David McCloskey]

To become a lecturer at another university in Tehran. He's even got a wonderful alias for his teaching activities, Gordon, Dr. Hassan Mohseni. And so we have this interesting kind of duality of the man emerging here where he is, he is a public physics professor, and in secret he's a brigadier general, becomes a brigadier general in the Revolutionary Guards.

[Gordon Carrera]

That strikes me as somewhat unusual and perhaps somewhat alien to our cultures. I mean, the idea that your physics professor, if there are any students listening who are physics students and if they're professors, might also be kind of clandestine leaders in their country's nuclear weapons program and have a kind of military rank and spend their time lecturing students the rest of the week. It's a kind of interesting example of the, I mean, the COVID role of this nuclear program, I guess, and the way in which he's also an interesting man because he is, on the one hand, a kind of academic and a scientist. On the other hand, he's a defense official and within the Revolutionary Guards.

[David McCloskey]

So the equivalent, if we wanted to use an Oppenheimer comparison, I guess the equivalent would be that as Oppenheimer is building the bomb at Los Alamos, he's continuing to commute to Berkeley to give lectures or something like that. Right? And then he's doing the weapons work in secret while he grades student papers.

[Unknown]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

I mean, that's kind of. That is what Fakhrizadeh is doing. And in fact, later in the story.

[Unknown]

This duality is going to end up.

[David McCloskey]

Being one of the vulnerabilities that he actually has, right? Because he is. He's going into Tehran to deliver these classes. So even though we don't know a lot about the man, I think we can make a couple judgments. One is that, as I said, he's.

[Unknown]

An ideological true believer.

[David McCloskey]

Right? I mean, there are plenty of Iranian government officials, you know, and sort of bureaucrats who I'm sure are quite ambivalent about the sort of the Islamic Republic.

[Unknown]

Mohsen Fakhrizadeh does not appear to be.

[David McCloskey]

One of those people.

[Unknown]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

He's in the irgc.

[Unknown]

He's helping to build Iran's bomb.

[David McCloskey]

This is not a man who's going home with real doubts about the system. Right. I think he's an Iranian nationalist. He is a kind of a hard man, I think a hard edge, a practical problem solver.

[Unknown]

Right?

[David McCloskey]

He's a.

[Unknown]

He's a physicist.

[David McCloskey]

He's a workaholic. We're going to learn he's pretty humorless, as those pictures show.

[Unknown]

He's totally secretive.

[David McCloskey]

I mean, even his children are not.

[Unknown]

Going to be fully aware of what he's doing.

[David McCloskey]

And what is going to become his life's work is building an Iranian Bomb.

[Gordon Carrera]

And let's talk briefly about Iran's nuclear ambitions. So Iran has got a civilian nuclear program, actually from before the revolution. The issue is, though, from the 80s and 90s, it looks to start to want to secretly at least explore the idea of having a nuclear weapon. It's got the opposition from the U.S. it's also had this war with Iraq in the 80s. So Iran is looking covertly to try and build this program and it's putting together networks to try and smuggle in some of the components. And fact, Crezidi looks like he's involved in that. Then in the early 2000s, a secret facility at Natanz used for uranium enrichment gets exposed. So for the first time, the kind of rest of the world wakes up to the idea Iran might be secretly going for a nuclear weapon. Iran, of course, says this is all for peaceful reasons, we just want nuclear power. Not many people believe them. But it's interesting because at that, that point it gets exposed. And the Iranians do shift when it gets exposed. And so they actually put a lot of the program underground. They start to disperse it. They pause some of the weaponization aspects of it because they're worried that it will invite a strike. Because this is 2003, when the US has just invaded Iraq. The Iranians are worried that they're going to be next and that they might be attacked. So they kind of, they take on a different strategy, which is to build up the infrastructure for a bomb without ever actually going making that last leap towards weaponization and building it, which they know might invite an attack. So they're kind of trying to get as far as they can without making that move. And Facilitade looks like he is playing a particular role. He chairs some meetings, I think, in the summer of 2003, to preserve some of the nuclear program as it's dispersed and to try and protect it. And so it effectively sets the scene for what we see in the last 20 years, which is Iran trying to keep pushing as far as it can, but without inviting an attack. Diplomatic efforts to try and do a deal to stop it, but also covert and sometimes overt attempts to undermine that nuclear program and stop it. But Fakhris A Day is at the heart of this. Inside Iran, even though it's largely unknown.

[David McCloskey]

I was really hoping for a way.

[Unknown]

In Gordon, to ask you to give us a briefing on the physics of a nuclear bomb again, which listeners to.

[David McCloskey]

Our previous episodes on Klaus Fuchs will know that both of us are, of course, highly qualified to talk about, to talk about the physics of a bomb. But I didn't find one in your briefing there, Gordon. So kudos to you for defending yourself valiantly. We should also say that in the summer of 2003, this is the point in the invasion of Iraq where US Officials are legitimately talking about doing like a left turn.

[Unknown]

I think they called into Damascus, so.

[David McCloskey]

Just sort of, you know, veering left.

[Unknown]

Out of Baghdad to go and wreck the Assad regime.

[David McCloskey]

So this is before the insurgency has really taken off and before the entire kind of nation building project in Iraq seems to have gone down as an abysmal failure. And so what the Iranians and what Mohsen Fakirizade I think are doing is pretty logical in 2003, because they've got to be looking next door at Saddam and saying, well, the Americans just went and wrecked a country who actually, you know, didn't have a nuclear program. You know, what might they do if it really becomes fully known how far along we're going? Right, yeah.

[Unknown]

So it does make sense to sort.

[David McCloskey]

Of pause pieces of it, fragment it, which I think from an intelligence standpoint makes a ton of sense, because if it's centralized, it's probably more vulnerable to sort of understanding both your capabilities and also your plans and intentions. Whereas if it's spread out over, you know, 10, 12, 15 pieces of your bureaucracy, I think it's a more difficult.

[Unknown]

Collection target for Western intelligence agencies to.

[David McCloskey]

Understand what's really going on. But Fakhrizade, he's still in the sort of catbird seat, isn't he? I mean, he's still running this thing to give the Supreme Leader, to give the Iranian government the capability to eventually have a breakout capacity for a nuclear weapon. And by 2020, by the year that he's finally targeted by the Mossad, Fakruzadeh is running what's known as the Organization.

[Unknown]

Of Defensive Innovation and Research, Persian acronym.

[David McCloskey]

Spnd, which, I mean, sounds very innocent, doesn't it, Gordon? But it's, of course, the hub of Iran's nuclear program. And Vachrisadegh is really the, I guess, chief advisor on almost anything involving their nuclear capabilities right at this point in time. Now, the SPND isn't. They're not only doing weapons research. Fakhrizadeh is helping Iran deal with the.

[Unknown]

COVID pandemic of all things.

[David McCloskey]

The Iranian vaccine is called Fakravak.

[Gordon Carrera]

Is that after him? Is it named after him?

[David McCloskey]

It's named after him. That's right. It's pretty extraordinary. I mean, his kids don't have any idea what he's doing. But clearly he's got, you know, a very key role in the program. Now. He's also, you know, we talked about him being a really practical man in many respects. And he has built up by 2020 an underground network of suppliers and logistics routes from Latin America to North Korea to Eastern Europe to get the equipment and parts necessary for this sprawling nuke program right now. And something we should address is why.

[Unknown]

Do the Iranians want this? I mean, why is it so important.

[David McCloskey]

To someone like Fakhrizadei and to the men around him to have a bomb? Because they're really engaged, I mean, especially in the kind of post operation Iraqi Freedom period. I mean, they're engaged in a very risky activity here that could, I guess, put them in the US crosshairs if it's sort of fully revealed and discovered.

[Gordon Carrera]

On the one hand, I think it's entirely logical why Iran would want nuclear weapons if you're the Iranian regime, because it's one of the few things that can frankly protect you from what you see as a US policy of regime change. The lesson of the Iraq war in 2003 was Saddam got taken out by the Americans because he didn't have a nuclear weapon to protect him. If you've got a nuclear weapon, if you're North Korea or somewhere else, then it's much harder to take you on. So it provides a form of protection. And I think also as time goes on, they'll look at, you know, Colonel Gaddafi and Mama Gaddafi in Libya, who also around this time gives up his nuclear program to the West. So in the wake of the Iraq war, he declares it, he gives it up, and what happens a few years later, there's a popular revolution, the west backs the rebels and he ends up dead. So one of the lessons is a nuke can buy you security. But of course, the dangerous bit is the journey towards the nuke. And I think the Iranians have played a very clever game, which is to build up the capacity, capacity, but never actually be seen to make that final leap towards making a bomb, to actually weaponizing, which would invite an attack, but to consistently get as close to being able to do that without having an attack as possible to get them the option. And I think that's what they've got themselves effectively. And what Facrizedi is doing is getting them the option that if they ever feel they need to make that leap, they can do it well.

[David McCloskey]

And I guess I also think of our old friend Bashar al Assad in Syria, who attempted essentially to buy a nuclear bomb from the North Koreans and install a reactor in the eastern desert that the Israelis found, bomb destroyed. And then a few years later, he's dealing with a popular uprising. And, you know, he doesn't have that.

[Unknown]

That protection.

[David McCloskey]

Right. Even Ukraine, I guess, which gave up its weapons in the early 90s in exchange for security guarantees in part from the Russians, that Ukraine would be independent and protected. And look how that turned out.

[Gordon Carrera]

So, yeah, I think it's entirely rational on the one hand, for the Iranians to pursue this strategy. It's also pretty rational for the Israelis, who see Iran as committed to their destruction, to want to stop them. So at that point, maybe let's take a break and we'll come back and we'll look at how the Israelis do decide to go after the Iranian nuclear program and some of the really adventurous ways in which they try and seek to stop it.

[Unknown]

This episode is brought to you by Incogni. Now, Gordon, have you ever Googled yourself?

[Gordon Carrera]

Only by accident, Never deliberately, and then regretted it immediately.

[Unknown]

Not quite sure how that happened by accident, Gordon. But anyway, imagine finding your address, job history, and political views, as I'm sure you did, all late out for anyone to see. That is exactly what data brokers do.

[David McCloskey]

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[Unknown]

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[David McCloskey]

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[Unknown]

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[David McCloskey]

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[Unknown]

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[Gordon Carrera]

That's right, David.

[Unknown]

So to get an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan, go to incogni.com restisclassified or click the link in the episode description box.

[David McCloskey]

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[Gordon Carrera]

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[Meghan Trainor]

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[Gordon Carrera]

Welcome back. We're looking at the story of Mos and Fakis and the Iranian nuclear program. And we've looked at this man, the Iranian nuclear scientist, the central figure, even if not much is known about him in that Iranian program. But let's look now at the Israeli side, the people who are going to target him and the reasons they want to do it and the people who are behind going after Iran.

[Unknown]

Well, I think on the Israeli side.

[David McCloskey]

Gordon, it makes sense to start the story with a very fascinating man named Mayor De Gan who was the head of Mossad in the early 2000s. And he actually wasn't the chief in 2020.

[Unknown]

He had retired by then.

[David McCloskey]

And so he's not a decision maker. But Mayor de Gans, I guess philosophy on the fight against the Iranians really.

[Unknown]

Lays the foundations for, I think, a.

[David McCloskey]

New way of dealing with the Iranian threat. And it's pretty important to set him up to understand why the Israelis are doing what they're doing. So he's born in 1945 to Polish Jewish parents who had fled, I think, in the late 30s to Siberia where they sort of waited out the war. There is this very, I think, emblematic.

[Unknown]

Story about Merdegan because in his office.

[David McCloskey]

Is hanging a picture of a Man kneeling in front of a German soldier just seconds before he's being shot. And that's Merdigan's grandfather who is killed by the Nazis in the Second World War. And Merdigan uses, I mean that, I mean, first of all, we should just.

[Unknown]

Imagine, here's a man who has the.

[David McCloskey]

Picture of his grandfather just prior to execution that's actually hanging in his office. And the lesson is that Jews need to fight. You get down on your knees like that, you're going to get shot right Now.

[Unknown]

Eventually, the family emigrates to Israel.

[David McCloskey]

Merdigan drops out of high school at 17, enlists in a very elite commando force, the Cyrat Met Gal sort of becomes, I guess, a feeder for political.

[Unknown]

Intel, military, kind of the upper echelons.

[David McCloskey]

Of the Israeli security establishment, but he doesn't make the cut. And Degan, he's very interesting because he's.

[Unknown]

Kind of an outsider in Israel.

[David McCloskey]

So he's not a Sabra, he's not a native born Israeli.

[Unknown]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

He's not a kibbutznik.

[Unknown]

Right. So he's not a guy who was.

[David McCloskey]

Out on one of these kibbutz farms, sort of, you know, settling the land. Right. He's, he's a Russian. Right? He's a Russian who's come to. You think about him. I mean, I realize he's born in Poland, but he's kind of a Russian settler in Israel. And I think that's not a bad way to, to think about him.

[Unknown]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

So he's going to spend the next few decades in special ops units in the Israel Defense Forces, the military in the Shin Bet, Israel's internal security force. He's involved in pretty much every one of Israel's wars throughout the the 60s, 70s, 80s. One of the soldiers in Degan's unit said that Degan, quote, had a serious malfunction in his fear mechanism. So he is physically courageous, adventurous. He's also a landscape painter, interestingly enough.

[Gordon Carrera]

So I'm very relaxing.

[David McCloskey]

Yes, enjoys that in his downtime. And in 2002, Ariel Sharon is the Prime Minister of Israel and he appoints Dagan to head the Mossad, which is Israel's foreign intelligence agency.

[Gordon Carrera]

The Institute for Intelligence and Specialty, yes is its official name, but everyone knows it as the Moss.

[David McCloskey]

So many of these security agencies that.

[Unknown]

We talk about on the show, Gordon.

[David McCloskey]

Have just wonderfully bureaucratic acronyms to them to hide the fact that they do incredible things. And Sharon, of course, has a very aggressive outlook. And we'll say at the time that he wants a Mossad chief with a.

[Unknown]

Dagger between his teeth. And so he taps Mayor De Gan.

[Gordon Carrera]

For the role, and he takes over from Efraim Halevi, who I actually met many years ago, who was the previous head of Mossad, who was a very different character. I mean, Halevi is more of your kind of George Smiley, like, spy master. Definitely not a man who, when I met him, had a dagger between his teeth as we sat and did a kind of quite genteel interview. I did do a radio series many years ago on the Mossad, and I went over to Israel, and I always remember I arrived at the airport. And when you arrive at the airport at Tel Aviv, they ask you what you're doing in the country, and they kind of question you. And I thought, well, I better be honest. So I said to the woman there at the kind of, you know, at the desk, I said, doing a documentary on the Mossad. And she just looked up and looked at me and went, I'll get my boss.

[David McCloskey]

Thus began Gordon's nightmare experience of being detained at Ben Gurion Airport.

[Gordon Carrera]

No, they were 14 hours, but they. I thought I might as well be honest about it. But anyway, that was one of the times I met Halevi. But Halevi, I think it's fair to say, was a different character. And Sharon wanted.

[Unknown]

Wanted this kind of aggressive character in.

[Gordon Carrera]

The form of Mayor De Gan, who was going to be much more proactive, much more, arguably, violent in what he was willing to do.

[David McCloskey]

Well, and Gordon, I don't know if.

[Unknown]

You intended to skip past this wonderful.

[David McCloskey]

Quote that I had put in here, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna read it anyway, because I think it's. I think it's illustrative of the sort.

[Unknown]

Of mentality of Mayor De Gan. When Degan takes over, he goes to.

[David McCloskey]

The Mossad kind of canteen, I guess, a place where the workforce congregates and. And he delivers an opening speech, right? And as I was reading the setup for this in my head, I was thinking of. It's pretty typical when a new CIA director takes over for them to address the workforce from what we call the bubble, which is our big kind of auditorium that's right there on the Langley campus. Not everybody goes, of course, but it can hold hundreds of people. Crowd will go in, it'll be on video. It's usually kind of milk toast stuff, right? And so I'm thinking, well, okay, that's probably what this is going to be.

[Gordon Carrera]

So this is.

[David McCloskey]

This is a line from.

[Unknown]

From Merdegan's sort of opening speech at.

[David McCloskey]

The Mossad and he's telling a story about his. His journeys fighting in Lebanon during the Israeli occupation of much of the country. And he said, in Lebanon, I witnessed.

[Unknown]

The aftermath of a family feud. A local patriarch's head had been split.

[David McCloskey]

Open, his brain on the floor.

[Unknown]

Around him lay his wife and some.

[David McCloskey]

Of his children, all dead. Before I could do anything, one of.

[Unknown]

The patriarch's sons scooped up a handful.

[David McCloskey]

Of the patriarch's brain and swallowed it.

[Unknown]

That is how they do things in.

[David McCloskey]

Family feuds in that place. Eat the brain, swallow the power. I don't want any of you to have your brains eaten. You eat their brains.

[Unknown]

And then God apparently punches his clenched fist into the palm of his hand.

[David McCloskey]

As he's delivering that last part.

[Gordon Carrera]

So your CIA directors never told you to eat your. Your enemy's brains?

[David McCloskey]

We were not. Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

You were not instructed.

[David McCloskey]

No, we were not.

[Gordon Carrera]

Imagine them doing that in MI6 either. It's not the kind of speech you get.

[David McCloskey]

The MI6, the opening speeches were far more boring when.

[Unknown]

Yeah. You know, when CIA directors took over.

[Gordon Carrera]

It does tell you something, though.

[Unknown]

It tells you something about the man.

[Gordon Carrera]

About the man. And also about that that's what Ariel Sharon wants from the man. And of course, as we said, this is 2002 at just @ that point where the Iranian nuclear program is being exposed and made public, isn't it? And where it's suddenly becoming an issue that Iran might want the bomb. And so you can see why this is going to be one of the priorities for him.

[David McCloskey]

That's right. Well, and one of my CIA colleagues who got to spend some time with Degan said that sometimes when Degan would be sitting in meetings with American officials.

[Unknown]

Who maybe weren't as educated on the.

[David McCloskey]

Region as they should be, Dagan would say in his very thick accent, he'd say, you didn't grow up in this neighborhood, did you? You know, to talk about the region. And I think that idea that the Israelis are living in an extremely tough neighborhood, in which if they do not reach out and touch people, they will be. They will be sort of victimized themselves. Right. Is deeply ingrained in his psychology.

[Unknown]

And I think as Degan looks out.

[David McCloskey]

He'S looking at an Iran that is essentially going to, you know, reach for a nuclear capability which threatens his entire sort of. I think he sees it as an existential threat.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

At this point.

[Gordon Carrera]

And so it becomes a priority to deal with that. And it's interesting, isn't it, because there are different options. And at various points, Israel does look at full out military strikes against Iran as one of the options to deal with that program. But actually, in the end, they're going to go down the more covert route as the more effective one, aren't they?

[Unknown]

Well, that's right.

[David McCloskey]

And here, Gordon, I think we should commend the work of an Israeli journalist named Ronan Bergman, who has written extensively over the past 20, 25 years about the shadow war between Israel and Iran and who has written an absolutely phenomenal book on Israeli targeted killings and assassinations called Rise and Kill First.

[Unknown]

And so, so much of the story.

[David McCloskey]

I think, really comes out of Ronan Bergman's reporting. But he reports in the early 2000s on a critical meeting where at Dagan's Mossad, they're basically laying out options for.

[Unknown]

What to do about Iran's nuclear program.

[David McCloskey]

And these are the three options that Mossad puts out there. One, conquer Iran, okay, to change the regime. Three, slow the program down so at the breaking point, they will not be.

[Unknown]

Armed with a weapon.

[David McCloskey]

I think Kissinger used to joke about how he always wanted to have, like three options, right? Two which were completely unthinkable, policymaker. And then one that you wanted them to choose.

[Gordon Carrera]

Oh, I'll have that one.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, yeah, I'll have that one. So there's one realistic option on here which is slow the program down.

[Unknown]

And on this kind of menu, I.

[David McCloskey]

Guess Dagon has put out a lot of different pressure points. There's diplomatic pressure, sanctions, support to the Iranian opposition. One of them, though, is targeted killings, assassinations of really scientists, civilian scientists involved in Iran's nuclear program. And Dagan is going to call these.

[Unknown]

A series of pinpoint operations meant to change reality.

[David McCloskey]

And 15 scientists, researchers, engineers, are put on Mossad's kill list. And one of them, even in the early 2000s, is Mohsen Fakhrizadeh.

[Gordon Carrera]

And so it is interesting this, isn't it, because as you said, these are not military targets in the classic sense of it. They are scientists and research scientists. The ethics of that, I think are questionable, complex. I mean, you know, it's one thing Oppenheimer being targeted perhaps by the. The Nazis or the Japanese, you could imagine, during World War II. But at that point, the countries are at war. So maybe it's slightly different here. You're in a kind of there isn't a declared war between the two sides, and yet, you know, one is targeting the. The scientists of the other. I don't know what the comparison or what the parallel would be for the west today. I mean, it would be as if there's some top AI researcher in a Silicon Valley firm who the Chinese or the Russians targeted.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

You know, they're working at, I don't know, OpenAI or Google Leapi or somewhere and working on some technology which, which the military in the US was going to use. And you took them out. I mean, it's not straightforward, is it, in terms of the ethics. But I guess that goes back to the Israelis, if you like having a different view of the world, you know, whatever people may think about it, and acting in a different way.

[David McCloskey]

Well, I think the Israelis essentially collapsed the distinction between an enemy combatant and a civilian who is providing a very unique and critical military capability to an enemy state. Right.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

Because I think here in the States I think we would draw a distinction. We'd say a targeted killing. To conduct that lawfully, it would have to be someone who is actually an enemy combatant. Right.

[Gordon Carrera]

And posing an imminent threat.

[Unknown]

And posing an imminent threat.

[David McCloskey]

Whereas an assassination which would not be permitted would be of a civilian.

[Unknown]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

Who's supporting that foreign program. Whereas I think the Israelis, they do not draw a distinction between those two types of operations.

[Gordon Carrera]

No. And I mean there's a history of that. If you go back into the past where they're targeting scientists, they're targeting businessmen and engineers. I mean, there was a famous guy, I think it was Gerald Bull, who was building a super gun supposedly for Iraq, and he gets killed. You know, it's thought by Mossad. So they do have a history of going after those people who are providing, even if they're foreigners, providing capability to a state which Israel considers an enemy. So, so it is within that. But this, I guess what we're talking about here is a very specific campaign to try and degrade that nuclear program. And on the one hand, when you go back to your kind of option, list those three options, it's worth saying that this is partly done to avoid a war. I mean, we can see it as a shadow war, but there is also a sense in which the alternative option for Israeli politicians, and particularly Benjamin Netanyahu, who's kind of very hawkish on Iran, is actually a military strike. So it becomes a kind of, well, we can either try and degrade them through these covert acts and sabotage and things like that, or else we're going to have to have an all out war. And if that's your alternative, then actually being offered the chance to try and slow it down and buy time rather than go to war is a perhaps more attractive one.

[David McCloskey]

And Dagone and some of the people.

[Unknown]

Around him will start to call this killing to save lives.

[David McCloskey]

And important to understand their mentality and mindset is Dagan is absolutely horrified by the prospect of an all out war with Iran. It is the thing he is trying most to avoid. And there's a story from 2010 where Netanyahu was apparently close to ordering a strike on Iran. And sort of Dagon is like apoplectic about this, right? He doesn't think that there is any way that Israel can stop Iran's nuke project by force alone because unlike the Iraqi program in the 80s, the Syrian program in 2007, the Iranian program is.

[Unknown]

Sprawling and vast, right?

[David McCloskey]

There's multiple facilities, some of which by the late, you know, sort of, I guess aughts, early 2000s, you know, it's.

[Unknown]

They'Re underground, deep in bunkers that are.

[David McCloskey]

Unreachable by the munitions that the Israelis have.

[Unknown]

It is homegrown in many respects in.

[David McCloskey]

That the Iranians have a really deep.

[Unknown]

Bench of scientists and researchers and engineers.

[David McCloskey]

Who are building the capabilities for the program. And so I think Dagon looks at this and says we can't really stop.

[Unknown]

This militarily, but by killing a few.

[David McCloskey]

Targeted people, we can really slow their progress down, avoid this war, delay it as long as possible and save a lot of lives as a result. And so Dagon's view I think is.

[Unknown]

That these killings are a lot more.

[David McCloskey]

Moral because it's the only way to slow down the program and avoid a war that he, I think believes Netanyahu wants.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's still the case, isn't it, where people are saying, well, maybe a military strike might happen even this year, but that doesn't necessarily end the program. It might just stead it back a few months. But it is well buried, well hardened, and it might just spur the Iranians to move faster once they can rebuild it. So I think it is a really interesting, complicated kind of policy discussion. So back to Fakhrizadeh. At this point, I guess around about 2007, it seems like we start to see evidence of this new Israeli policy to target the scientists, particularly in the program.

[David McCloskey]

Well, that's right.

[Unknown]

I mean, and just a few examples.

[David McCloskey]

Of this and we should say, by the way, the Israelis don't claim any of these operations, right? I mean we, we attribute them to, we attribute them to the Israelis, but they were, they don't claim them publicly, right? So in, In January of 2007, a.

[Unknown]

Nuclear scientist working at this Fahan uranium.

[David McCloskey]

Plant dies under very mysterious circumstances following, quote, gas leak. And then Iran is convinced that The Israelis poisoned him. In 2010, another scientist, this time someone who's actually working directly with Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, is walking toward his car in north Tehran. He opens his car door. A booby trap motorcycle next to him explodes and kills him.

[Unknown]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

Later that year, In November of 2010, two motorcyclists blow up the cars of.

[Unknown]

Two figures involved in the nuke program.

[David McCloskey]

One of them is a particle physicist who's killed by a limpet mine just attached to his car while he's in heavy traffic.

[Unknown]

Twenty minutes later, professor of nuclear engineering.

[David McCloskey]

Who worked on Fakrizade's team is almost killed in a northern suburb. But he survives. And Dagan, by the way, in this sort of period, he. His term at Mossad is up. Right. And some of his successors have taken over. But the program or this sort of.

[Unknown]

Set of operations to go after the.

[David McCloskey]

Brains of Iran's nuclear program keeps going. In July of 2011, two gunmen on motorcycles follow the car of a nuclear physicist, an expert in the high voltage.

[Unknown]

Switches used to trigger nuclear warheads.

[David McCloskey]

Bikers kill him, hit him with five shots. And then a year later, in 2012.

[Unknown]

A chemical engineer at a uranium enrichment.

[David McCloskey]

Facility leaves for the lab. Limpid mining gets attached to his car by a motorcyclist. He's killed. Now, Degan calls these hits divine interventions. Again, the Israelis don't claim them. And I think by this point, it's worth maybe reflecting on what all of this means for Mohsin Fakrizedi, because we.

[Unknown]

Can talk about this kind of clinically.

[David McCloskey]

But for him, he's having friends and.

[Unknown]

Colleagues are being murdered.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah. You know, by the Israelis trying to stop his life's work from happening. You know, this is going to really.

[Unknown]

Affect the operation that we're going to.

[David McCloskey]

Talk about in the next episode is that the security has increased massively on scientists and engineers involved in the program.

[Unknown]

Over these years, and especially on Mohsen Fakhrizi.

[David McCloskey]

So they've got bodyguards, cops around their homes. A lot of these scientists are probably very miserable because they're not. Not soldiers.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, it's not much of a life.

[David McCloskey]

Right. They're not soldiers. They're not in a war zone. They're living in comfortable neighborhoods in Tehran and they're being sort of, you know, put under 24. 7 protection because they've had friends and colleagues who are being killed by the Israelis.

[Gordon Carrera]

And you get some of what are called white defections, which. Which are where people basically decide, I don't want to do this. I don't want on the nuclear program. I mean, you can see why. Yeah, if you're a scientist and you think, well, am I going to work on that and I might have Olympic mine attached to my car and get blown up or should I go and work on something else? I mean, you can absolutely see why they might ask to be or want to transfer to something else.

[David McCloskey]

I actually think this was probably one of the major effects that Mayor De.

[Unknown]

Gon was hoping these killings would have.

[David McCloskey]

Is discourage people to create an absolutely chilling effect inside the research institutions, the bureaucracies that, that bring these people to work on the new project. Because Iran isn't, I mean, obviously it's.

[Unknown]

Not a democratic system, it's not an open system.

[David McCloskey]

But like you still have people who are probably like, you know, hey, I'll.

[Unknown]

Do a two year rotation to this.

[David McCloskey]

Thing and then I go do something else or there's probably some amount of choice involved here. And you gotta think that at night.

[Unknown]

When some of these scientists go home, talk to their wives about their next.

[David McCloskey]

Rotation or role, you're thinking, maybe I don't work on this anymore, maybe I.

[Unknown]

Go do something else.

[David McCloskey]

So I think, I think that absolutely was in De Gun's gun sights as he was promoting these attacks. Now we should note, and we won't go into extensive detail on any of this here because these are frankly all. Many of these operations are future episodes on. The rest is classified, to be quite honest. But the killings are only one component of the havoc that Mossad is wreaking on Mohsin Fakhrizadeh in this period.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right. You've got Stuxnet, you know, the cyber attack which the US looked to have been involved in as well, which undermines the program. You've got an operation in 2018, I think when the Israelis break into a warehouse, amazing operation in Tehran and actually steal the files, you know, some of the files about the history of the nuclear program.

[David McCloskey]

So that operation in 2018 is absolutely, to use a technical term, bananas. Because what the Israelis do is they, they literally drive trucks into a warehouse facility in a Tehran suburb that is housing all of the hard copy material on the nuclear weapons program going back like many years. Many of those papers are actually, you know, written by Fakhrisde and they've got his writing in the margins, his signature on them.

[Unknown]

And it shows really the full extent.

[David McCloskey]

Of the Iranians deception on the true.

[Unknown]

Nature of the program.

[David McCloskey]

The Israelis quite literally break into the facility, steal the material, put it on trucks and drive it out across the border. And that raid, I think, is actually.

[Unknown]

One of the reasons why we even.

[David McCloskey]

Know as much as we do about Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, because so much of the.

[Unknown]

Information that's come out about him is.

[David McCloskey]

Coming from those files and documents.

[Gordon Carrera]

So by 2020, Israel has really been pushing in lots of ways against Iran's nuclear program, and it has got Mohsen Fatquizadei in its crosshairs now, really, it's decided that it's going to go after the mastermind, the man at the center of it. And so I think. Let's take a break there, David. But when we come back, we will look at this really extraordinary operation involving robotic machine guns, artificial intelligence, satellites, covert operatives, which is used to finally get.

[Unknown]

To this man who is at the.

[Gordon Carrera]

Heart of Iran's nuclear program. See you next time.

[David McCloskey]

See you next.