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- [00:01]
David McCloskey
This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. Not everyone is careful with your personal information, which might explain why there's a victim of Identity theft every five seconds in the U.S. fortunately, there's LifeLock. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year by visiting lifelock.com podcast terms apply. The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US Customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April. The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on a, quote, ongoing daily basis to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries. The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration, the communications records of millions of US Citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk, regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing. The disclosure is likely to reignite longstanding debates in the US over the proper extent of the government's domestic spying powers. Well, welcome to the Rest is classified. I'm David McCloskey.
- [01:26]
Gordon Carrera
And I'm Gordon Carrera.
- [01:27]
David McCloskey
And that for those who have been listening to our series on Edward Snowden, is the first time. Thank you, Gordon. That I have not been forced to read an opening quote from Edward Snowden's memoir, Permanent Record. That is instead a quote from an absolute bombshell of a news story dropped by The Guardian on June 5, 2013. And I will note, though, Gordon, in my effort to take extreme offense at all opening quotes, that this story was broken by a British newspaper, which is, which is also offensive to me, but.
- [02:00]
Gordon Carrera
Also an American journalist, by an American journalist for a British newspaper.
- [02:04]
David McCloskey
That's right. That's right. Well, and for those tuning in, here we are on our fourth episode of our journey into the darkness of Edward Snowden's leaks.
- [02:15]
Gordon Carrera
He's bringing stuff to light, David, rather than darkness.
- [02:18]
David McCloskey
But anyway, we are now finally at a point in the story where after Edward Sonnet has taken this information, he has got about 1 1/2 million documents on various sort of SD cards and hard drives. He is in Hong Kong now, sort of ensconced in a disgusting hotel room filled with cartons of takeaway food. He is now in a room with journalist Glenn Greenwald, you, Ewan McCaskill from the Guardian, and Laura Poitras. A filmmaker. And now, June 5, 2013, this first article drops. And it's a massive one.
- [02:55]
Gordon Carrera
It is a massive one. The world doesn't yet know that the source for this article is Edward Snowden. All they get is this remarkable story. And, I mean, I remember it dropping and thinking, where has this come from? It just felt so kind of unusual as a story, we should explain what it was and why it's so significant. It as the story you read says it's a court order to the company Verizon that demands it hands over the details of every phone call in America under Section 215 of the Patriot Act. This was the successor of the secret program we talked about before, known as Stellar wind, created after 9 11. And what it was after was what's called the metadata, not the content of the call. So it's basically saying these two phones connected at this time for so long. Not necessarily what was said in that phone call, but it allows the idea for the NSA and then the FBI to kind of carry out searches on it to look for terrorists or other suspects. The point being, though, that this looks like domestic surveillance by the nsa, a foreign intelligence agency. And that was stunning, partly because the US Director of National Intelligence, James Clapper, just a few months before, had been asked in Congress, you know, by a senator, almost a question which suggests that the senator knew about this program, because the senator said, does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans? And Clapper's reply was, no.
- [04:20]
David McCloskey
Now, I will defend the US in defense of James Clapper. I must interject just a couple other points of context that you have. You have left out of this, Gordon, which is this was an open hearing. Yeah. Now, for those who have seen the video, it would have been hard, I think, to picture James Clapper looking more uncomfortable.
- [04:44]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah.
- [04:45]
David McCloskey
When he answered that question, he's constantly sort of scratching his bald head, probably thinking, why in the hell is this guy asking me this question?
- [04:53]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah.
- [04:54]
David McCloskey
I think that the real mistake here that Clapper made was not answering the question in that way, because how could he have answered that responsibly in an open hearing?
- [05:03]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah.
- [05:04]
David McCloskey
It probably was not correcting the record afterward. Also, I'll note this Clapper testimony in the sort of Edward Snowden, you know, revisionist history of all of this in the Snowden history. The Clapper testimony is this sort of turning point for him right now. That brings us back to my Snowden deadly Sins. Right. And if you recall from earlier episodes of the Listener, Sin Number Two, impure motive. Snowden's bulk download started months prior to the Clapper testimony. But I agree with you that, and I think this is something that will be a thread connecting the rest of the episodes in our wonderful series on Snowden is there is a tremendous gap between the understanding of this program, I think, inside sort of the upper reaches of Congress and the intelligence community and the White House and. And what the American people think is happening. And that's where this article is such a bombshell, because Americans, prior to this, ordinary people, did not have an understanding that any of this was authorized.
- [06:06]
Gordon Carrera
Exactly. I think what's interesting, if it had just been that one story, it would have been big. But actually, it's really an American story. It's about the kind of American Constitution and legal protections. But. And I think you can imagine US Officials going, okay, well, you know, that's bad. But then the Guardian tells US officials who they're in contact with that they've got another story coming down the line. And I think that's important because it makes clear that it's not just a single document that's been leaked, but there's more, and it's coming from what looks like inside the nsa. So the next day, there's a little race, but the Guardian publishes a story on something called prism. The Washington Post, which also, remember, had got some of these documents, also publishes just before, a few moments before, to get ahead. So you get a sense of the journalistic race there. Now, this is another biggie in terms of a reveal. And I think for a lot of people, this is perhaps, particularly around the world, this is the more famous one, prism. So maybe just briefly, I'll explain, try and explain what it is. This is about the content of emails and communications which are coming from big US Tech firms. So this is about basically the idea that the US and the PRISM story and the slides that it was based on suggested that the NSA had access directly. And we can come back to what that really meant to companies like Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Apple, to things like Gmail, Outlook, you know, photos, all the data that people are sending around the world. This is in some ways a more stunning revelation because everyone around the world uses American tech companies. You know, those were basically the only companies you used for email and for everything else. And suddenly this program is being revealed saying the NSA appears to have access to it and. And is able to target and get particular accounts and details of it. So it's different from the kind of bulk collection of American data, which is the phone records. This is more about foreigners around the world having their emails and the content of their communications targeted specifically as individuals. But it's still, again, pretty stunning.
- [08:13]
David McCloskey
Well, and PRISM is the code name for this program and I think it is important, very important to note that this is targeting the communications of foreign nationals. The intent behind this is for the United States government, for NSA to be able to query this database essentially and to be able to look at email etc of foreign nationals who are outside the United States. But as that's being collected, you're of course collecting the information of Americans at the same time. Right. Who are sort of swept up in these searches. But you're not.
- [08:55]
Gordon Carrera
They're not the target.
- [08:56]
David McCloskey
They're not. They're not the target of it. Right. It's sort of almost being collected, incidentally.
- [09:00]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah.
- [09:01]
David McCloskey
By the nsa.
- [09:02]
Gordon Carrera
I mean, there's a phrase which, you know, in the spy agencies they use, which was home field advantage. And it's an interesting one because it works in two ways that the US and the UK for a long time built and owned the infrastructure of the Internet, the kind of fiber optic cables which meant they could kind of tap into them. And we'll come to that a bit later. But also now at this period, the US has a particular home field advantage because it's US tech companies which are being used by everyone around the world and as we know, collecting a whole load of their data. And I guess the spies think, well, we want access to that. I mean, it is interesting because much of the story is built around a kind of slide deck which Snowden had passed on.
- [09:42]
David McCloskey
It's got these logos, I would argue, very easy to draw whatever conclusion you like from that slide deck because you've.
- [09:48]
Gordon Carrera
Got the logos of these tech companies on it. So I mean, that's part of the kind of drama of this story. And also the slides implied, and the initial reporting implied that the NSA had direct access into the company servers. And actually it's interesting, but it's one of those things where over time it became a bit clear it was more complicated that actually there was a kind of interface which allowed the NSA and FBI to send queries and then for the companies had a kind of interface which would pull it out. It wasn't a secret backdoor hacking into the companies, nor is it a kind of front door where they're going openly publicly. It's a kind of discrete side door which allows the NSA and the FBI to go to these companies and get a flow of data that they are collecting from their customers. But you can See why that's pretty explosive for the companies and for the public who had no idea this was happening.
- [10:37]
David McCloskey
And important to note, it was legal. The tech companies knew this was happening. So a lot of the outrage that came afterward from Silicon Valley was primarily that it was leaked, not that it was happening.
- [10:52]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, because I remember talking to tech companies, people at the time, first of all, they'd never heard the phrase prism. So people would go, what's this prism? And only a very few people inside tech companies would have known it was happening.
- [11:01]
David McCloskey
And the legal basis for this was something called Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance act, which FISA. That act had been passed in the 70s, been updated, amended over time. The authorities that NSA was operating under, FBI was operating under, were, I believe, part of the 0708 FISA Act. And that Section 702 is what really compelled, in many ways, these tech companies to provide that information to the federal government.
- [11:34]
Gordon Carrera
And one of the things I was saying was some of the kind of confusion over how the servers were accessed and whether it was direct access. And I think that also points to one of the challenges with these stories is that Snowden had often provided a set of slides and charts to the journalists, but he hadn't necessarily always worked directly on these programmes because he was an IT guy rather than, on the whole, a kind of intelligence analyst. And so one of the problems was he hadn't actually necessarily worked the programs or didn't necessarily know all the details, so they're left trying to decipher it. And sometimes, as we know, slides, people make shortcuts in how they write slides and do presentations.
- [12:09]
David McCloskey
I take offense at that. As a former management consultant, Gordon My slides were perfect and telling, clear and concise.
- [12:17]
Gordon Carrera
It's fair to say these slides were not meant for public consumption. And, you know, there are more questions raised by that initial Guardian article, for instance, whether GCHQ had access to this data, which they did have, in some cases, what's called the Five Eyes alliance, which is the kind of five countries, us, uk, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, who basically cooperate, particularly on signals intelligence. And they're not supposed to spy on each other and they're not supposed to spy on their own citizens without kind of warrantary and legal things. And all these questions, well, is this being used to get round. It didn't necessarily appear to be the case, but suddenly all these questions are kind of thrown up, partly because all of this had been so secret, there'd been a vacuum of understanding, there'd be no kind of public knowledge about these programs. So suddenly everyone is like, whoa, what are the spy agencies doing?
- [13:05]
David McCloskey
Well, and I think it is important to note here again, in deadly sin number four, Snowden indiscriminate leaking. There is a massive question when you raise this issue of Snowden even understanding what in the world was on these slides. So there's an annual training inside NSA on section 702 and FISA and how those queries could happen and the sort of legality and framework for understanding, really, Prism. And Snowden had failed his annual training on Section 702. Right. So it is, again, I think, an important fact to bring to bear in this is that he, he was outraged by this program much in the way, you know, out in Hawaii he'd been outraged by acts where he thought the government was sort of intervening as censor or whatever, but had not read the bills. I think, again, in this case, he is, I mean, and there's no doubt that this is an important civil liberties topic. But at the same time, Edward Snowden does not actually understand, I think, what the NSA is doing, as demonstrated by his inability to even pass the annual training on this. Right.
- [14:10]
Gordon Carrera
But if you go back to that time, I mean, some of it was confusing. It was stunning and confusing. I remember if you then talk to people now about what it was like in gchq, you know, Britain's intelligence agency. I mean, there is blind panic when particularly PRISM comes out. Ian Lobbin, who was then the director, later said, when I heard the news, I lay awake saying to myself, I hope this isn't a Brit. Because, you know, they've realised they've got a leak. Some of it looks like it relates to Britain. You know, he's reported to have gone round colleagues asking, is anyone in your teams at GCHQ taking, you know, a long holiday? And also, I mean, the US had tried to get him to lean on the Guardian to get him to stop it. And he's like, you know, that's not, that's not what we do. And I think meanwhile in, in NSA as well, there's this kind of desperate panic as they realize their secrets are being unfurled. But first they, they could hope that maybe the Verizon story was a leak from inside Verizon. But that's.
- [15:01]
David McCloskey
Which would make sense. Which would make sense.
- [15:03]
Gordon Carrera
But once you get prism, you're like, oh, no, this is someone who's got access to the secrets. They do the classic leak inquiry thing, which is, I guess, say, who's got access to these documents? And Try and narrow it down, but it's kind of hard.
- [15:14]
David McCloskey
It's too many people. Too many people, yeah.
- [15:16]
Gordon Carrera
So at this point, we're heading to kind of Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and the NSA are kind of, it seems like, and I've been asking people about this. They say they were narrowing down their.
- [15:26]
David McCloskey
List of suspects, and they probably do know, as we discussed last time, that someone's missing. He's missing.
- [15:32]
Gordon Carrera
So I'm gonna be honest, I still think there are some mysteries around this investigation that leads to Snowden, which I think are unresolved and don't make sense to me even years later, because, you know, the fact Snowden's girlfriend is visited, that could be because he's absent. But the person who provides an email account which Snowden has been using to anonymously contact journalists, he said, and he told me years ago, that he had been contacted at the end of May by the FBI to ask for details of a certain account, which suggests that they were looking at something. You know, whether they were monitoring the journalists and had spotted something and were working that way by having, you know, monitored Laura Poitras and seen she was contacting someone. Whether you've got two different inquiries and then you have Snowden's absence and then you have this, and then they all converge on Snowden, I don't know. But I think there are some things we've still not understood yet about what was going on inside the investigation there. Anyway, it's mysterious, but what's interesting is that they are kind of narrowing it down and they're certainly kind of heading towards Snowdon if they don't know it already at this point. Typically, someone who'd done this would keep themselves secret, and normally you'd have this kind of process, and you've seen it before in news stories where there's weeks or months of like, who is it? And then eventually the FBI or someone will leak or come out that here's their top suspect.
- [16:47]
David McCloskey
But luckily, he's a massive narcissist with a massive ego. Right. He is a Tekken warrior for his clan, Gordon.
- [16:57]
Gordon Carrera
But it's so interesting.
- [16:59]
David McCloskey
Single combat against the US government. He can't hide in the shadows.
- [17:03]
Gordon Carrera
But I also kind of think he wants to be public. And he's made that decision all the way along. And it's interesting, he seems to know that they're going to trace him as well.
- [17:10]
David McCloskey
Well, he's letting Laura Poitras film all of this in Hong Kong.
- [17:14]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, he's made the decision. He's gonna go public and Some of the journalists are kind of like, are you sure you wanna go public? You know, there's risks to this. You could end up in jail. But he's clearly made that decision. They're gonna find him. He wants to be public. He's gonna make his mark and reveal himself to the world.
- [17:30]
David McCloskey
He wants the world to meet him more.
- [17:32]
Gordon Carrera
He wants the world to meet him as he says. And so on the Evening of Sunday, June 9th, remember this very well. We're just kind of reeling as journalists from all these leaks and stories. And then suddenly on the Guardian website, up pops this video. Edward Snowden. The man reveals himself in a film by Laura Preitras. So now we have Edward Snowden in Hong KONG Exposing the NSA's innermost secrets. And he's just told the world exactly where he is.
- [17:59]
David McCloskey
Well, maybe there we should take a quick break with Edward Snowden sort of on his rumpled bed in Hong Kong with his white T shirt and his sunlight deprivation, talking to Laura Poitras. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll see what the world does when it meets Ed Snowden. This episode is sponsored by Incogni.
- [18:23]
Gordon Carrera
Now, David, in the world of espionage, you're trained, aren't you? To assume one thing. Someone's always watching.
- [18:27]
David McCloskey
And in everyday life, Gordon, well, they usually are. But not spies. Data brokers. Quietly collecting your personal information, building detailed profiles and then selling them on without a warrant and without any warning.
- [18:39]
Gordon Carrera
That's right. Your address, phone number, family ties, even political leanings, all online. It's like your personnel files been left open on a cafe table.
- [18:48]
David McCloskey
And once it's out there, it spreads to scammers, identity thieves, really, anyone with a WI fi signal and bad intentions.
- [18:55]
Gordon Carrera
That's why we use Incogni. They act on your behalf, demanding data brokers delete your information. And they keep doing that automatically because it's not a one time breach. It's the risk of constant exposure.
- [19:06]
David McCloskey
Think of it as your own digital counterintelligence service. So head to incogni.com restisclassified for 60% off an annual plan, that's incogni.com/restisclassified. This episode is sponsored by NordVPN. Which Gordon, frankly, is essential if you'd rather not have your online life monitored like some Cold war embassy.
- [19:29]
Gordon Carrera
Who wants that? Well, these days there are eyes and ears everywhere across the Internet. Ad companies, data harvesters, parties unknown, NORDVPN blocks, all of it. Malware, pop ups and the creepier corners of the web.
- [19:42]
David McCloskey
In it's like having your own digital dead drop. Secure, untraceable, nobody quietly rifling through your browsing history or collecting your personal information.
- [19:51]
Gordon Carrera
And so threat protection works even when the VPN's off, so even if you forget to switch it on, it's still covering your back.
- [19:59]
David McCloskey
It also encrypts your data on public WI fi, think cafes, airports, hotels. So you're not handing your information over to whoever's lurking on the same network.
- [20:07]
Gordon Carrera
So if you want to stay one step ahead. And really, who doesn't? Head to nordvpn.com restisclassified for an exclusive deal with 4 extra months free.
- [20:18]
David McCloskey
Plus there's a 30 day money back guarantee. No risk, no trace, no loose ends. The link is in the episode description.
- [20:29]
Gordon Carrera
Hi, this is Katie K. From the Rest Is Politics Us and this is Anthony Scaramucci. I've spent over two decades reporting from Washington. Presidents, well, they come and go. The chaos that never changes.
- [20:41]
David McCloskey
And I've been inside the eye of the storm.
- [20:43]
Gordon Carrera
Eleven wild days in Trump's White House.
- [20:45]
David McCloskey
I have seen how the sausage gets made and who's holding the knife.
- [20:50]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, that's not a nice image. But on the Rest Is Politics us, we break down the stories that are behind the headlines and we actually look at what they mean to America and the rest of the world as well.
- [20:59]
David McCloskey
We're not just talking politics, we're talking about power.
- [21:02]
Gordon Carrera
We've got both of us, access, experience and just enough cynicism to know when something smells a little off and how to trace it back to the source.
- [21:12]
David McCloskey
No spin, no filter reporting the stories you won't hear anywhere else.
- [21:18]
Gordon Carrera
If you want smart analysis, global context and a front row seat to the world's loudest democracy, this is the show.
- [21:25]
David McCloskey
It's from two people that have ringside seats occasionally center stage in a country where court cases and campaign rallies share.
- [21:34]
Gordon Carrera
The same parking lot. The Rest Is Politics US New episodes every week.
- [21:46]
David McCloskey
Well, welcome back. We are here continuing Gordon Carrera's quest to make me read every absolute jackalope statement that Edward Snowden has ever made. And it is Sunday, the 9th of June, 2013. Ed Snowden is allowing the world in his own words, to meet him finally in a video that Laura Poitras, the filmmaker, is filming of Ed Snowden in his hotel room in Hong Kong. And Snowden makes. Let me read again. Gordon, thank you for this wonderful death march. Okay, this is Ed Snowden, June 9, 2013 from Hong Kong. I could be rendered by the CIA. I could have people come after Me or any of the third party partners, they work closely with a number of other nations or they could pay off the triads, any of their agents or assets. We've got a CIA station just up the road, the consulate here in Hong Kong. And I'm sure they are going to be very busy for the next week. And that is a fear I will live with for the rest of my life, however long that happens to be. You can't come forward against the world's most powerful intelligence agencies and be completely free from risk because they are such powerful adversaries. No one can meaningfully oppose them. If they want to get you, they will get you in time. But at the same time, you have to make the determination about what is important to you.
- [23:03]
Gordon Carrera
Thank you for reading that so deeply.
- [23:05]
David McCloskey
Yes, and for those not watching on video, I have a large bottle of Colgate mouthwash I've been using to rinse my mouth out after reading all of this.
- [23:13]
Gordon Carrera
So look, that is just one part of the video.
- [23:15]
David McCloskey
It sounds like something that, you know, a sort of enterprising spy thriller writer might include. Yeah, I was gonna say in one of their insane.
- [23:23]
Gordon Carrera
Perfect dialogue for you. Great dialogue for your next novel. I mean, there is a touch of Jason Bourne to it, I think. I think maybe. I can't remember when the first Bourne films came out, but I think there is a touch of.
- [23:33]
David McCloskey
Predate this by several decades, I believe.
- [23:35]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, the first books did. Yeah. But of the guy who's, you know, the insider who's now on the run. So you can see him almost kind of linking himself to those popular culture tropes of the guy who the CIA are going to come after and they're going to use the triads, the kind of local organized crime in Hong Kong and to go after him. I mean, it's fascinating. I think it's only one part of a bigger video in which he's talking about the 12 minute video that goes on the Guardian. But. But it's quite a telling bit, isn't it?
- [23:58]
David McCloskey
But I think it does tell you something about his worldview, doesn't it? I realize that there will be a batch of listeners who would assume that this is what the former CIA guy is going to say. But what Snowden is alleging here is ridiculous. That the CIA would attempt to render him from China. I mean, the US will later on request that the Chinese government send him back home. But the idea here is somehow that there are going to be a group of CIA paid triads that break into his hotel room and put a Bag over his head and put him on a Gulf stream to fly back to Washington. I mean, it's actually ludicrous and I think it shows you how much of a video game he has turned this into.
- [24:43]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah. Although dare I say, occasionally the CIA has been known to undertake certain acts of rendition from certain countries, even friendly countries like Italy. So it's not entirely implausible. I mean, but not against its own citizens.
- [24:55]
David McCloskey
Not against an NSA contractor who's also just gone public. Who's just gone public.
- [25:00]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, yeah.
- [25:02]
David McCloskey
That's where. But you're. Yes, you're right. But it's again, it's this idea. He's filtering.
- [25:07]
Gordon Carrera
He's the hero in his own video game.
- [25:08]
David McCloskey
He's the hero in his own video game. Precisely.
- [25:10]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah. I mean, and what's fascinating here is he's going public. He's revealing himself to the world. He's saying this, that I could be hunted down by the triads or by the CIA. And yet he hasn't planned an exit strategy. And I think it's really kind of telling and odd that he hasn't. And I mean, one option would have been for him to go back to say, here I am and I'm going back to the US And I'm going to go on trial and I'm going to make my case. Now, his argument is that he would have faced a kind of sham trial. You know, he might not have been able to have a jury trial in which he gave a defense, and because of the Espionage act, he wouldn't be able to make his case. And yet he still doesn't really know what he's going to do. And here, now he's gone public in Hong Kong. And in the video, they don't say he's at the Mirror Hotel, but it's clear, it's Hong Kong. And so now it becomes clear that people are going to track him down. Hong Kong press and the world's press are descending on Hong Kong to find this whistleblower. And they're looking at the kind of, as you do now, with kind of open source intelligence. Looking at the pictures of him in his hotel room and going, that looks like the Mirror Hotel. You know, you referred to him by.
- [26:09]
David McCloskey
The W word, Gordon. Whistleblower, leaker.
- [26:13]
Gordon Carrera
Okay. So he realizes he's got to run, you know, the next day he's got to go on the move.
- [26:17]
David McCloskey
It does raise the question of what he thought would happen. Yeah, I think, because in my view is that he probably thought once these articles came out that he would Be able to go someplace like. I think he even mentioned this as a possibility, like Iceland. Even at this point, I don't think that in his mind China or Russia are the preferred sort of destination. I think he believed again in this kind of image of him as, hey, I'm the hero in the story and it's self evident that what I'm doing is right. I think he believed that someplace more friendly would accept him.
- [26:59]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah. And Iceland seemed to have been his first choice. I mean, it's interesting cause I think China does become an option at one point. So the next day, after the video, he's bundled out of the Mira Hotel. I mean, you see a bit of it in the film and you know, lawyers in Hong Kong help him and help hide him. They take him to a kind of cramped apartment in a poor neighborhood filled with refugees rather than the kind of five star hotels he's been in. And he kind of wears a hat and sunglasses. You know, he's moving from place to place with people who are trying to escape deportation. There is though a point here where I think he does consider going over the border into China. And it's interesting because he does an interview with a local paper in Hong Kong revealing that the NSA attacked Chinese mobile phone companies and a university. Now this is particularly awkward at this time because almost literally at this moment, President Obama is meeting the leader of China for a big summit at Sunnylands in America. And the argument was the US was going to press China about its hacking of American companies and stealing of intellectual property. And at this moment Edward Snowden turns up and goes, actually we're hacking you, we're hacking you and we're carrying out kind of cyber espionage on China. And it is very awkward for the United States and for President Obama at that summit, but also to me it suggests that Snowden is trying to maybe buy some support in China in order to, to get out and get over there. Perhaps as one option.
- [28:22]
David McCloskey
Now is that interview, the first time that one of his leaks was connected to the US just straight up spying on a foreign adversary? Because that is another piece of this that has obviously not sat well with most Americans I think since is that he's, he's revealing here in this interview in China, which by the way, I think in the context of all of these massive articles coming out in the Guardian the week prior was sort of ignored. Yeah, right. Is that he's actually revealing something about just the US spying on a foreign adversary. This had nothing to do with massive domestic.
- [28:59]
Gordon Carrera
His argument is, and it's interesting. I think we'll come back to it. But his argument is there's an element of US hypocrisy in complaining about others spying on America when it's spying on them, and that it's carrying out mass surveillance of Chinese citizens and collecting their bulk data. Now, I'll give that's what spy agencies do. But you're right, there is a kind of different tenor to some of these articles. But what's interesting is if he is trying to buy support to get into China, perhaps doesn't work. Doesn't work. They don't want him. It's really interesting because this is something which I think has only become clearer now. It's is that the Chinese at that point know that this could become a big diplomatic row with the us The US are going to want him back. And if the Chinese are seen as sheltering him, they're going to get into problems and relations with the US and China. Then they're not as bad as they are now. And you know, one former spy chief told me, he said China should have kept him and squeezed him dry. That now is what a Western spy chief would have expected China to do.
- [29:55]
David McCloskey
He's kind of a political hot potato.
- [29:57]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, he's a hot potato. And on June 21, the US formally, it requests his extradition.
- [30:01]
David McCloskey
After all those failed attempts by the triads. The CIA hired triads to get into his hotel room. Well, finally had to play it, play it straight legally. The base chief in Hong Kong was just furious. At the end of the week, this attempt to bag Ed Snowden had failed.
- [30:18]
Gordon Carrera
So he's going to be charged on the Espionage Act. And now his lawyers are kind of looking for a way out. So they are talking to Iceland and other countries where they think the kind of long arm of America might not reach them. And Iceland, it's interesting, is his first choice because it's quite big into Internet freedom.
- [30:31]
David McCloskey
Why doesn't he go there first?
- [30:32]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of interesting. Why didn't he pop up in Iceland if that's the case, rather than in Hong Kong?
- [30:37]
David McCloskey
I guess as he goes, he's got to balance the threat of maybe immediate extradition. Yeah. Right. If you go to some place like Iceland and it goes south.
- [30:48]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah.
- [30:48]
David McCloskey
You know, you just maybe get sent home much more quickly straight away.
- [30:51]
Gordon Carrera
Whereas Hong Kong, you got a bit more.
- [30:52]
David McCloskey
There's maybe a little bit more political leeway. Yeah. And so maybe he's gotta balance this kind of.
- [30:57]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah.
- [30:58]
David McCloskey
Intermediate kind of airlock. Right. Where he's he's potentially gonna use the leaks and how that sort of gets filtered publicly to build enough credibility to get a place that he considers sort of open to Internet freedom or privacy to then accept him. And obviously it doesn't. It doesn't pan out that way at all.
- [31:17]
Gordon Carrera
No. And it's at this point where who else comes onto the stage but Julian Assange and WikiLeaks?
- [31:23]
David McCloskey
Enter WikiLeaks.
- [31:24]
Gordon Carrera
Enter WikiLeaks. Ed Snowden had previously not chosen to go to WikiLeaks with this stuff, but he's in this no man's land. He's looking for kind of ways out. And Julian Assange, who is not shy when it comes to publicity, has clearly seen this massive leak of documents and I think to some extent wants to associate himself with it and so offers help. And Julian Assange, we should say WikiLeaks, you know, this Australian hacker who takes on the US state, releases loads of videos and documents, you know, becomes a kind of thorn in the side of the US at this point. Julian Song is holed up in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London trying to fight extradition to, I think, Sweden. Sweden on sexual assault charges, which he thinks are a means to get him, you know, extradited to America. And it's all part of the plot against him. But he sends one of his lawyers out to help Edward Snowden and the plan seems to be to get him to Ecuador as the route to freedom. Ecuador being kind of anti American, anti imperialist place, which would give him. Give him an element of freedom.
- [32:24]
David McCloskey
But I suppose they've got to create an itinerary that hopscotches through territories where he will not be extradited.
- [32:33]
Gordon Carrera
Right, exactly. So they come up with a plan which is to take a long route to Ecuador via, it looks like Havana.
- [32:39]
David McCloskey
The slow boat to Ecuador and Marathon.
- [32:43]
Gordon Carrera
I mean, that is quite a route. It's like Moscow, Caracas, Havana, you know, Ecuador.
- [32:47]
David McCloskey
Yeah. I mean, I've flown that river before. It's exhausting.
- [32:49]
Gordon Carrera
You always.
- [32:51]
David McCloskey
That is my preferred way to go.
- [32:53]
Gordon Carrera
The Whistleblower Express.
- [32:54]
David McCloskey
Yeah, the Whistleblower Express. I mean, my WikiLeaks mind are next to me, you know, you do have to wonder now, with all that has come out, particularly around sort of WikiLeaks, Russia connections. Yeah. If at some point Assange may have mentioned Snowden to some of his Russian contacts along this path.
- [33:17]
Gordon Carrera
You're speculating about that? We have no idea.
- [33:19]
David McCloskey
But I do some breezy speculation. A breezy speculation? Yeah.
- [33:23]
Gordon Carrera
I mean, it does seem odd, naive to Transit through Moscow. You know, as a US intelligence whistleblower.
- [33:30]
David McCloskey
Snowden, as we have discussed, is an interesting combination as a potential intelligence target of egomania, bravery.
- [33:39]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah.
- [33:40]
David McCloskey
And lack of guile.
- [33:42]
Gordon Carrera
Naivety, perhaps you could say innocence.
- [33:44]
David McCloskey
And I think in this case, I could certainly buy that Snowden did not understand the implications of traveling through Moscow. But Sarah Harrison, WikiLeaks.
- [33:55]
Gordon Carrera
We don't know who suggested, you know.
- [33:56]
David McCloskey
I mean, yeah, it's. It's very interesting now.
- [33:58]
Gordon Carrera
It is, it is, it's interesting. And so on Sunday, 23rd of June, he checks in on Aeroflot SU213 to Moscow. We're all familiar with that flight.
- [34:07]
David McCloskey
It's late all the time, it's constantly delayed. Yeah.
- [34:10]
Gordon Carrera
It's not quite clear how he could travel given his US passport had been canceled. But I think, you know, the truth is, I think Hong Kong and China are like, on you go, you know, we don't care what passport, you just get out of here.
- [34:20]
David McCloskey
The Chinese are keen to get rid of the political hot potato.
- [34:22]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah.
- [34:23]
David McCloskey
And the Russians, maybe someone inside, sort of Assange had mentioned it to somebody. And someone at the FSB says, let's let this guy come.
- [34:31]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah, come through, come through.
- [34:33]
David McCloskey
The Aeroflot people in Hong Kong can. Yeah, let him through.
- [34:36]
Gordon Carrera
Yeah. He lands in Moscow on June 23, about 5pm local time. Now, journalists already have heard about this, so they're scrambling to get there. The Ecuadorian ambassador arrives in Moscow's airport, and all the journalists are like, where's Snowden? Where is he? And the Ecuadorian ambassador arrives, he's heard Snowden's coming, and he says to the journalists, where's Snowden? And they're like, we thought you knew. You're the one who's supposed to be looking after him. There's no sign of him. So for a while there's this fascinating mystery where no one knows where he is. And some people are sure that what he's gonna do is get aboard a flight to Cuba to Havana, which is then going to Venezuela and then will, you know, eventually take him to Ecuador. And so they're convinced that he's getting on a particular flight. And I remember one of my colleagues, Daniel Sanford, amongst other journalists, booking themselves on this flight to Havana from Moscow. He was the Moscow correspondent. Sure, the Snowden's gonna be there. And they think, right, we're gonna be stuck on a flight with him. We're gonna get the interview with him on it. And then they sat there on the plane and the door to the flight closes as they look at the seat that's been booked for him, 17A. It's empty, he's not on it.
- [35:42]
David McCloskey
How do they know the seat?
- [35:42]
Gordon Carrera
Someone's leaked it, I guess, and someone's told them and there's this empty seat. And of course by then it's too late. The doors close and the plane's taken off. And then in the final blow to these journalists, they are told the flight is dry. There is no booze on the flight.
- [35:59]
David McCloskey
Now why is it a dry. Why is that a dry flight?
- [36:02]
Gordon Carrera
I don't know, but it's just, it's almost like to taunt these journalists, you know, because this is the worst disaster for a journalist is, you know, the stories in Moscow. You've got onto a plane to Venezuela, not a short flight without the target of your story. You're going to have to turn around and go back again and you can't even have a drink. It doesn't get much worse than that.
- [36:21]
David McCloskey
I mean, of all of the shocking revelations in our series here, the idea of an outbound flight from Moscow being dry might be among the most interesting that we've encountered. I think that is. That's bizarre. Also, the newspapers are approving these expense reports. That's the big story you gotta do. Flights are just economy roping on an economy flight from Moscow to Venezuela, all.
- [36:45]
Gordon Carrera
In the hunt for Edward Snowden. So I think that is the place to maybe leave it because all we know is Edward Snowden is in Moscow. So next time we'll see what happens to Snowden and the rather dramatic story actually of what happens to him as he arrives in Moscow, which the journalists don't yet know about. And the fact that his revelations are still going to go on.
- [37:05]
David McCloskey
And of course members of the Declassified Club are able to hear that straight away. And also listeners following the news, Gordon will see that the Bulgarian spy ring we did a few episodes on a few weeks ago while they've been sentenced. And this Friday we have an absolute treat for club members. We have recorded an interview with the head of Scotland Yard's counterterrorism division. Now, he was in charge of that case. He has an absolute insider's view on the Minions on those Bulgarians. It's the perfect complement to those episodes. And if you want to hear that, just go ahead and join the Declassified club@the restisclassified.com and take advantage of our launch discount.
- [37:48]
Gordon Carrera
That's right. It's the fairly unique chance to hear about Scotland Yard's view of Minions, which is not something I ever thought I'd be discussing on the podcast.
- [37:57]
David McCloskey
But there you go. And here you are. Here you are, it's 2025, and we're talking Scotland Yard and Minions. And I believe he did talk about Minions and refer to them as minions once or twice, maybe reluctantly. You be the. He did.
- [38:08]
Gordon Carrera
No, he did. He did. So, anyway, listen out for that on the club. But thanks for listening, everyone, and we'll see you next time.
- [38:13]
David McCloskey
We'll see you next time.