49. The Man Who Tried To Kill The KGB: A Traitor in the Kremlin (Ep 1)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Classified - Episode 49: "The Man Who Tried To Kill The KGB: A Traitor in the Kremlin (Ep 1)"

Introduction

In Episode 49 of The Rest Is Classified, hosts David McCloskey and Gordon Carrera delve into a riveting true espionage narrative centered around Vasily Matrokin, a high-ranking archivist within the KGB's Foreign Spy Service who ultimately betrays his organization. Drawing from Gordon Carrera’s upcoming book, Gordon the Spy in the Archive. How One Man Tried to Kill the KGB, this episode unravels Matrokin's complex motivations, daring actions, and the intricate maneuvers of MI6 to extract him and his invaluable archives from the clutches of the collapsing Soviet Union.

Setting the Stage: A Turbulent Lithuania, 1992

The episode opens on a stormy afternoon in Klaipeda, Lithuania, marking the 75th anniversary of the Soviet Union's revolution. A yellow minibus bearing the Baltic Tours sign arrives at the docks, unloading a group of suspiciously armed individuals. Among them is Vasily Matrokin, a senior archivist whose arrival heralds the beginning of a dramatic espionage saga.

David McCloskey introduces the scene with atmospheric detail:

"[00:07] David McCloskey: Tossing out my gunky laundry detergent bottle. Ooey, it's got that booty, that juicy boom boom, that gun right alive."

Matrokin’s Dilemma: From Archivist to Traitor

Matrokin, portrayed as a disgruntled and introverted figure, harbors a deep-seated hatred for the KGB. His tenure as the senior archivist grants him access to the organization's most guarded secrets. Over twelve years, from 1956 to 1984, he meticulously copies classified documents, driven by a blend of personal grievances and ideological convictions. His meticulous efforts culminate in a vast archive of intelligence that could potentially expose decades of KGB operations worldwide.

Gordon Carrera emphasizes Matrokin’s unique role:

"[05:23] Gordon Carrera: This is the nexus of the British Secret Intelligence Service and Russians. We've hit all of the squares on your bingo card, haven't we?"

MI6’s Post-Cold War Challenges

As the Cold War wanes, MI6 finds itself in an identity crisis. With the Soviet Union dissolving, the agency grapples with redefining its mission and assessing ongoing threats. The arrival of Matrokin introduces both an opportunity and a predicament: verifying his authenticity and determining the value of his information amidst a backdrop of skepticism towards new walk-ins.

David McCloskey provides insight into MI6's internal state:

"[14:08] David McCloskey: Yes, yes. And funnily enough, Russia House. So it's obviously the name of the Le Carre novel…"

The Unlikely Pair: MI6 Agents James and Robert

MI6 dispatches a seasoned agent, James, and an unconventional asset, Robert—a Russian-born individual deeply embedded within the agency. Robert possesses an uncanny ability to "smell" deceit, a skill honed through years of interacting with KGB operatives. Their mission: to evaluate Matrokin's claims and facilitate the transfer of his sensitive archives.

Gordon Carrera describes their dynamic:

"[24:41] Gordon Carrera: And this pairing had worked together quite a bit around that time…"

Matrokin’s Conditions: Family Safety and Public Disclosure

Upon meeting MI6, Matrokin presents two non-negotiable conditions. Firstly, he demands the safe extraction of his entire family, who remain unaware of his clandestine activities. Secondly, and unusually for a defector, he insists that his amassed archives be made public. This dual demand underscores his complex motivations—balancing personal desperation with a desire to dismantle the very institution he once served.

David McCloskey highlights the significance of these conditions:

"[43:16] David McCloskey: He wants his work published like any author…"

The Brink of Operation: Showdown at the Docks

As MI6 approves the plan to meet Matrokin’s demands, the episode sets the stage for a high-stakes extraction operation. The culmination of weeks of planning leads to a tense encounter at the Lithuanian docks in November 1992, where the fate of Matrokin, his family, and the explosive archives hangs in the balance.

Gordon Carrera builds suspense for the next episode:

"[45:11] David McCloskey: And here On that wonderfully Carreran cliffhanger. And when we come back next time for the thrilling conclusion of the Vasily Matrokin story, we'll see exactly how MI6 does it…"

Notable Quotes

• David McCloskey on Matrokin's mission:

  "[33:11] David McCloskey: It is also kind of fascinating that the idea is let's take our failures and give them the most wide reaching access in the organization."

• Gordon Carrera on Robert’s perception skills:

  "[25:50] Gordon Carrera: ...he could just tell from the aura someone gave off and the body language whether they were really a spy..."

Conclusion and Tease for Next Episode

The episode concludes with the looming extraction mission, leaving listeners eager to uncover how MI6 navigates the perilous task of rescuing Matrokin and securing his extensive archives. The narrative promises a blend of historical intrigue, personal drama, and the relentless pursuit of truth against formidable odds.

David McCloskey invites listeners back:

"[46:02] David McCloskey: We'll see you next time."

Final Thoughts

Episode 49 offers a compelling glimpse into the shadowy world of espionage, highlighting the intricate dance between defection, intelligence gathering, and agency operations in a post-Cold War landscape. Through detailed storytelling and insightful analysis, McCloskey and Carrera paint a vivid portrait of a man driven to betray an empire, setting the stage for an exhilarating continuation in the ensuing episodes.

Transcript

[Gordon Carrera]

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[David McCloskey]

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[Gordon Carrera]

This cause I toss like this. I wash like this.

[David McCloskey]

It's a no mess.

[Gordon Carrera]

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[David McCloskey]

Is brought to you by Factor. Optimize your nutrition this year with Factor America's number one Ready to Eat meal service. Factor's Fresh, Never Frozen meals are dietitian approved. Ready to eat in just two minutes. Choose from 40 weekly options across eight dietary preferences like calorie smart, protein plus and keto. Eat smarter at FactorMeals.com Listen50 and use code Listen50 for 50% off plus free shipping on your first first box factor meals.com Listen50 code Listen50 T's and C's apply the sky was heavy with storm clouds as a yellow minibus with a Baltic Tours sign painted on the side pulled up by the docks at Klaipeda. The sharp eyed observer on that afternoon of 7th November 1992 might have realized they were not the only ones watching as an odd collection of characters disembarked. Hovering at the edges were a group of tough looking figures, bulges beneath long coats tracing the shape of weapons as they scanned the decaying industrial docks on Lithuania's Baltic coast for trouble. The fact that this was the 75th anniversary of the revolution that led to the creation of the Soviet Union was not a coincidence. A suave, rakish, well dressed man with graying hair seemed to be directing events. Another man, heavier Built, wearing glasses, a blue scarf and a long trench coat, seemed to be helping. But then something seemed to go wrong. There was shouting. Watching events unfold, a wiry older man was the calm center of a storm. He did not appear anxious or nervous, not even as the limp body of another man was slung over his shoulder. For him, the steps from the minibus to the waiting boat might be dangerous, but they represented the culmination of his life's journey. He carried with him a warning that he believed the world needed to hear and a weapon with which to do battle. At that moment, he believed he was finally about to slay the beast that had preyed upon his country and inhabited his nightmares. Well, welcome to the Rest Is classified. I'm David McCloskey.

[Gordon Carrera]

And I'm Gordon Carrera.

[David McCloskey]

And that brilliant piece of prosecution, worthy of a spy novel, if I do say so myself, comes from the pen of none other than Gordon Carrera. And it is exceptional. Gordon. It is also my audition to read the audiobook.

[Gordon Carrera]

Too late.

[David McCloskey]

Too late.

[Gordon Carrera]

I've already done it.

[David McCloskey]

You're already doing it. But that is the opening from your new book, Gordon the Spy in the Archive. How One Man Tried to Kill the kgb. It's out in a few weeks in the uk. It is absolutely brilliant. And it is the subject of the next few episodes here on the Rest Is Classified.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right. And it's very unlike us to plug our own books, isn't it?

[David McCloskey]

It's very out of character. We, of course, we never do this.

[Gordon Carrera]

Barely mentioned yours. We barely mentioned. What was it? Fifth floor? Sixth. Seventh floor, wasn't it?

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, seventh floor, seventh floor. Out now and hired back wherever you get your books. That's right. So you have a book coming out and we're going to tell that story today. It is the story of Aselie Matrokin. If I get the pronunciation right.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, that's pretty good.

[David McCloskey]

That's pretty good.

[Gordon Carrera]

Okay, some people say Mitrokin, but I've been told Mitrochin is the better version of it. Who was he? Well, he was the senior archivist of the KGB's Foreign Spy Service. An interesting character, but also a man who developed a profound, even spiritual hatred for the very organization that he worked for, the kgb, and who set out effectively to destroy it. And he did so by stealing their deepest secrets, even though, as we'll come to, he wasn't your typical spy. And then, with the help of MI6, the British secret Intelligence Service, trying to escape.

[David McCloskey]

This is the nexus of the British Secret Intelligence Service and Russians. We've hit all of the squares on your bingo card, haven't we?

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, within a few minutes, the first few minutes. And we're going to get to the CIA soon, so don't worry, you don't get left out of this story. So Mutrokin had stolen the secrets at the heart of the KGB's foreign spy service. Details of undercover agents, operations around the world, some of their most secret, deep cover spies. And he would, I think, become one of the most consequential spies of recent decades, because what he had uncovered, what he would hand over, would really shine a light on what the KGB had been up to four decades around the whole world. So from India to America, Australia to Africa to Britain itself, going back decades. And his name might be a bit familiar to people interested in the spy world because in 1999, a book came out which had details from his files and showed really the scale of what he was revealing and that there'd never really been a compromise of secrets quite like it. But what no one has revealed before, and what I try and do in the book is tell the story of the man himself. Who he was, how he did it, why he did it, and I think most remarkably how he escaped. That scene that you read from so beautifully in your audition for the audiobook at the start is really the first time that that part of the story has been told. This story in Lithuania of first how he approached the British and then how he got out, much of it has actually been clouded in mystery, maybe even misdirection going back for decades.

[David McCloskey]

I think I was disgusted to find out that you had already booked yourself to read the audiobook. So my audition is far too late. I mean, we're talking about a spy in the archives, and I think we tend to think they have access to military secrets. You know, I'm thinking of friend of the pod, Adolf Tolkachev, who we did a series on a few months ago, who had access to basically advanced aeronautical designs and engineering work inside the Soviet establishment. Or, you know, you think of actual KGB kind of line staff officers who are running assets who might get recruited themselves. But Mitrankin is actually maybe far more sort of deadly as a spy because he is quite literally got his hands on all of these documents, right? I mean, he's got the official record of First Chief Directorate spying outside of the Soviet Union. I mean, it's an absolutely exceptional haul for a spy service to get its hands on.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right. And I think that's one of the reasons why he's so important. But the other one is that it's a story which is both about what the KGB had done during the Cold War and which he's going to reveal, but also it's about more than just history, because one of the things that I think makes Mitrokin so important is that he was also explaining how the KGB had worked and could see and warn that even though the Cold War had ended effectively in 1991, that actually something of the past and of the KGB's ideology had persisted. And he, as we'll come to, I think later, was warning that actually the force that drove the KGB was still there, had survived and persisted, particularly in the form of Vladimir Putin. And so Matrokin was actually also offering a warning about the future and about the world we're in today. And it's one which I think almost everyone at the time failed to understand. I think that's one of the other reasons why he is actually a much more important figure than people have previously understood.

[David McCloskey]

So we've got spy secrets of the highest order. We have really a daring, very human spy story here about the family, which we'll talk about here. This is really a family story as well. So I think it's got a little bit of everything. And of course, we are going to declassify most of your book here on the podcast, Gordon, but I will just again, note this book is fantastic, go out and get a copy. So, I mean, Gordon, where should we start? I think maybe we go back to Lithuania in November of 92 and pick up on my beautiful reading that kicked this all off.

[Gordon Carrera]

That reading was about the moment, the dramatic moment in which Mitrokin is going to escape. But if we go back just a few months before that, to the start of the year, into March, there's a moment where an old man walks up to the British Embassy in Vilnius and knocks on the door. He's about 70 years old. He's got a small moustache. He's wiry, though, quite fit. But at this point, he's dressed almost like a tramp in pretty shabby clothes, and he's pulling along with him a grubby bag on wheels. The whole idea of how he looks is deliberate, to look almost like a tramp, because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself, partly because of what's inside that bag. And he's fearful because he's a former KGB officer and he knows Russian intelligence are still active in Lithuania, and if they find him, he's in trouble. But. But he's Walking up to the British Embassy and he's what's known in the trade as a walk in.

[David McCloskey]

We covered a bit in the tolkachev series, this idea of walk ins. I mean, essentially he's a volunteer. No one has tried up to this point, as far as we know, to recruit him. He is offering his services to the British state. And what I think is really fascinating about walk ins is they tend to be some of the most valuable assets that spy services run. Because you think about how hot the interior fire would have to be burning for somebody to take a former KGB officer to go outside of Russia and reach out cold to another secret service. He's committed by definition. Yeah. Right. So he's walking in, he hasn't been bumped, he hasn't been developed, and he's potentially in league with some of these other really important walk ins that have kind of framed Cold War spy history.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right. But the thing is, it isn't the first time he's walked into an embassy because the Brits were not his first choice. Amazing as it is for me to admit that someone wouldn't choose Britain as your first choice. What had he done? He'd already tried the Americans and I'm afraid he'd been turned down, he'd been turned away.

[David McCloskey]

He wasn't fit for duty. The entire record of the KGB's first Chief Directorate, I guess we said no. And I guess it is also again to hearken back a bit to the Tolka chip series. I mean, there's a track record here of the CIA turning Russian volunteers away. Right. With some good reason. But this is maybe not abnormal and maybe even less abnormal after the fall of the Soviet Union in the early 90s.

[Gordon Carrera]

No, that's right. And he'd actually tried multiple times in both Riga and in neighbouring Latvia, as well as in Vilnius, to go to the Americans, and he'd been turned away. He'd arrived in these Baltic states just as the Soviet Union had been broken up and they were new embassies, which both the US and the UK had set up in these countries, very small. So one of them, one of the CIA people does take him seriously. But that CIA officer, I'm told from speaking to people at the time, was about to move on to his next posting. So he said, come back in a few weeks. I'll leave notes for the next person to look at. But when Mitrockin comes back a few weeks later, this next person looks at him and sees what looks like a tramp with a shopping cart and basically just Dismisses him. And so, you know, the extent to which he's dressed down to avoid drawing attention seems to have really worked against him. In that case.

[David McCloskey]

He might have anticipated that he might have worn something underneath the tramp disguise to be able to seem more suave as he's talking to these Americans.

[Gordon Carrera]

Another thing to say is it is the context of the time, because 1992, the Soviet Union's just collapsed. In 1991, Russia is plunging into economic crisis, and there is actually a lot of KGB or former KGB officers who are trying to offer themselves up to the Americans. I mean, there was this line that came up which was another drunk KGB colonel, and that was the joke that the CIA officers had at the time, was like, here comes another one after a million dollars and a house in Florida, resettlement. So they're getting a lot of these chances and also occasionally dangles, which are people who are being offered up to smoke out CIA officers, I guess, and to send them down wild goose chases. So there's tensions within the bit of the CIA which deals with Russia, which is known as Russia House, isn't it?

[David McCloskey]

Yes, yes. And funnily enough, Russia House. So it's obviously the name of the Le Carre novel, which I believe came out in the late 80s, and it wasn't called Russia House like Le Carre didn't hear that from inside either CIA or sis. I mean, he made up the name. And then my understanding is that the CIA officers at the time believe it was called CE Division, said, oh, that's cool, and basically started to call it Russia House colloquially. Right. So Russia House doesn't appear on the org chart, my understanding, but it's how officers who work on Russia would refer to the group.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, and the same at MI6. And then at this time, Russia House of the CIA has got a new boss, or it's had one around the end of the Cold War. 91, a guy called Milt Bearden, a swaggering Texan type. He'd run the secret war in Afghanistan, arming the guerrillas to fight the Soviet Union. And he'd been sent in, partly deliberately, to clear the old guard out with the view that the Cold War was ended. So he'd sent out a message which said to hold off recruiting new agents whilst he tried to build a relationship with the Russians. There's a message which one CIA officer remembers receiving, this is how they described it to me. We are canceling them as their primary target. As their dicks are in the dirt, we will get everything we need from liaison and that was how they remember Milt Bearden's message going out. I guess your dick being in the dirt means you.

[David McCloskey]

Well, I guess you're lying there or it's been severed. I suppose in either case it's bad. I guess there's. The context here of the liaison comment is interesting because the Russian services are so inward looking and weak at this point that they're not much of a threat. Or this is the perception and you're meeting with these drunk KGB colonels during liaison discussions in Moscow. The idea of paying somebody to commit espionage, maybe you just say, we'll save the money and the time and the energy. And I suppose this is also happening at a point in time where the extent to which there will be real democratic change in Russia, real political change in Russia and a new way of the US dealing with Russia is also very much up in the air. Right. So you can kind of make some sense of it. Although it does seem like if someone's showing up to volunteer their services, you might still give them a listen, even if they're dressed like a hobo.

[Gordon Carrera]

But they don't. But they don't.

[David McCloskey]

But they don't.

[Gordon Carrera]

So for that reason, Vetrokin then turns up at the British Embassy in March. I've been there. It's a kind of quite grand building just on the edge of town. Big stone lion looking down on you as you walk up the steps. He rings the bell, receptionist opens the door. He wants to see a diplomat. What he gets is a young woman in her 20s. And he's actually quite disappointed at this because he thinks, well, kind of a young woman. She's not going to be a serious player. She's not a spy, she's a diplomat.

[David McCloskey]

Some nice KGB chauvinism there on display.

[Gordon Carrera]

It was a bit. But crucially, she's a Russian speaker and she's smart. And so she has to make that quick, instant decision, is this person, this kind of tramp like person, someone she should take seriously? And she does that most British of things. She offers him a cup of tea, which I love that detail because I think she clearly thinks, okay, I'm going to give this guy the time of day and a cup of tea. But it's quite an interesting exchange because she gives him a cup of tea and he gives her some of the KGB's most deepest secrets. Because he kind of reaches into his grubby bag, rummages around, there's clothes, sausages, some bread, sausages, sausages. Because I think they. Part of his cover story is that they're hard to get hold of in Russia, I guess. But at the bottom of the files. And he pulls them out. Now, the crucial thing is it's not immediately obvious what they are, because they are not original KGB files. So they haven't got the kind of markings to suggest their official documents.

[David McCloskey]

Which I guess would explain some of the skepticism on maybe our services part and yours. It's just if they're not the originals, very hard to verify them immediately.

[Gordon Carrera]

Exactly. So it's hard to be sure what they are. But the diplomat who's a Russian speaker can see that they look like they might be some of the deepest secrets of the kgb.

[David McCloskey]

Well, and maybe there with Metrocon about to hand over the crown jewels. Let's take a break and when we come back, we'll see how he did it and why. This episode is sponsored by Incogni.

[Gordon Carrera]

Now, David, in the world of espionage, you're trained, aren't you? To assume one thing. Someone's always watching.

[David McCloskey]

And in everyday life, Gordon. Well, they usually are. But not spies. Data brokers. Quietly collecting your personal information, building detailed profiles and then selling them on. Without a warrant and without any warning.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right. Your address, phone number, number, family ties, even political leanings, all online. It's like your personnel files been left open on a cafe table.

[David McCloskey]

And once it's out there, it spreads to scammers, identity thieves, really, anyone with a WI fi signal and bad intentions.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's why we use Incogni. They act on your behalf, demanding data brokers delete your information. And they keep doing that automatically because it's not a one time breach. It's the risk of constant exposure.

[David McCloskey]

Think of it as your own digital counterintelligence service. So head to incogni.com restisclassified for 60% off an annual plan. That's incogni.com restisclassified.

[Gordon Carrera]

Meghan Trainor, laundry retrainer. Meghan Trainor.

[David McCloskey]

You're tossing out my gunky laundry detergent bottle. It's got that booty, that juicy boom boom that don't fly.

[Gordon Carrera]

Alright. Arm and hammer power sheets. Toss like this. Cause I toss like this. I wash like this.

[David McCloskey]

It's a no mess. Laundry bliss.

[Gordon Carrera]

Arm and hammer power sheets. More power to you.

[David McCloskey]

Well, welcome back. Vasily Matrokin. The spy in the archive has reached out to not the Americans, but the Brits. And he has met with a British diplomat and he has begun the process of handing over this archive.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right. At this point, interestingly enough, he's not Given his real name, he actually says he's called Yurasov. It's a kind of false name he's using. And he also tells the woman that he's got to get back to Moscow on a train in a few hours time, but he says he can come back in a few weeks with more material. Now, once he's left, the woman goes to talk to her ambassador. They agree they need to inform London. One of the challenges is this embassy is so new, they don't actually have a secure line in the embassy, so she's going to have to go to Berlin to send it. I mean, it's that small. It's a half dozen people.

[David McCloskey]

They hadn't even done, like, the electrical, plumbing work to even get a secure line set up at that point. That's wild.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, it is that early. So eventually that message gets to London and it clatters out of a teleprinter in London at a place called Century House.

[David McCloskey]

Great name.

[Gordon Carrera]

It's a great name and it was a great building because this was the headquarters of MI6 at that time. People now remember this place called Vauxhall Cross, which is the current headquarters, and Vauxhall Cross, sometimes known as Legoland, because that's how some people think it looks. Whereas Century House was in Lambeth and it was actually quite an old and quite crappy block, which people who worked in there joked, would not have looked out of place in the Soviet Union. So if you think a slightly kind of brutalist concrete block. And I think this is also a time when MI6, a bit like the CIA, is undergoing a bit of an identity crisis, because the Cold War, which had defined it for so long, had just ended. And here In Russia, House, MI6's version of the team dealing with Russia, they're also kind of trying to cope with the fact that they had been before the top dogs in MI6, you know, they were the ones with the deepest secrets. And now everyone is kind of wondering, A, what MI6 is for these days. People used to kind of ask that, and B, do we still need to spy on the Russians in the same way as the past? So it's a disorienting time, I think, for MI6 and Century House, but they get this message that a man has walked in in Vilnius. There's a discussion about it. Some people think he is a dangle. In other words, he's been sent there by the Russians deliberately to play with them, to flush them out.

[David McCloskey]

The paranoia is fascinating, isn't it? And I think it's With a decent amount of justification too, that this is how the Russian services behave. So even though the entire state has collapsed and Russians are basically growing their own potatoes for sustenance amid the sort of absolute economic collapse of the 90s, the idea that there's still KGB officers who are like, you know what would be great, a good idea? Let's dangle this archivist in front of the British service just to mess with them. But these are the conversations that are going on, right? It's the mindset, it's amazing.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, it is. But they decide he's worth checking out at the very least, so they're going to dispatch a team to the Baltics when he returns in April. Now, who do you send on a mission like this? It's interesting, isn't it? Because if you think it might be a dangle, you don't necessarily want to send out newbie officers, you know, recently trained, clean skins, who the Russians might not know who they are and blow their cover effectively. So instead they send a pair who I call the odd couple, for reasons which have become clear in the book, I think, particularly. But let's call them James and Robert.

[David McCloskey]

Real names? Yeah, not real names, last names and driver's license numbers in the show notes.

[Gordon Carrera]

Unfortunately not.

[David McCloskey]

Are they long time, like Russia? Hands inside?

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, MI6, they're really interesting characters. So James is a veteran officer and he's been around the block. He's now in his 50s, he's pretty worldly wise. He spent most of his career hunting Russians in various parts of the world, trying to recruit them, trying to spy on them. That's James. Now, Robert, the other one is a really unusual character. He's actually one of the most unusual characters I've ever come across. One of the reasons he's technically not an MI6 officer, but technically an agent. And even more surprisingly, he's actually Russian. He was born and grew up in the Soviet Union and had come to Britain and ended up working with MI6 as an effectively an agent, but who they are using on multiple operations because of his effectively pretty unique skill set and understanding. I mean, that's pretty unusual, isn't it? I mean, I don't know how often you've heard about that happening on the American side.

[David McCloskey]

It is unusual, though not unprecedented. And in fact, the CIA has a name for that sort of officer, which I was actually not allowed to print in one of my books. It was one of the redactions that they forced me to make. But essentially, I guess what we're describing here is the typical model would be there's an intelligence officer who's, let's say the Brit, and then there's the asset or agent who's Russian. And this is a kind of middle ground individual, I guess, who kind of blurs the distinction between those two roles in some ways, where it's essentially a foreign born individual who's got a foreign passport, but who effectively acts as a staff officer for the intelligence agency that they working with or for. You can see why it's very appealing and interesting for an intelligence agency to have these people because they are more vetted, more trusted than your typical agent. But they have all of these sort of documentation and experience and cultural and linguistic skills that the agents might have too. So it's a very interesting and very valuable type of person.

[Gordon Carrera]

And this pairing had worked together quite a bit around that time. And one person described Robert, this Russian, as having effectively what they describe as a superpower, which was that they could meet someone and they could smell or tell on meeting them, as they put it, if the person in front of them was for real or not, and whether they were KGB or not. That's how it was described to me, as they could just tell from the aura someone gave off and the body language whether they were really a spy and someone who'd worked for the kgb. That's the kind of thing which only comes from experience because I think in this case Robert had had plenty of run ins and knew quite a lot about the kgb.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

And so has that instinctive understanding of who someone might be and whether they're telling the truth or not. So you can see the value of that as an asset.

[David McCloskey]

This made me think, and I assume you're not familiar with the show, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Gordon, are you familiar?

[Gordon Carrera]

I've heard of it, yeah.

[David McCloskey]

There's an episode in which two of the characters write a terrible movie script about a detective who can smell crime like he can actually smell it in his nose. And that's when I first read this in your notes. I thought of that because it is really truly a superpower. But I guess you're right that if you have spent your adult life basically flying out to meet with Russians and some of whom are probably dangles and some of them work for the kgb, it'd be much harder to fool someone like James.

[Gordon Carrera]

Robert the Russian.

[David McCloskey]

Robert the Russian. Sorry. The code names you gave them are very Anglo, so I got them confused.

[Gordon Carrera]

They are very Anglo. There's a reason. So the two of them are going to be dispatched they'll go out and meet this old man in April, first couple of days when they're there, actually he fails to show up. Finally he walks back into the embassy in Vilnius. Robert uses this superpower. I don't know whether he literally takes a sniff of him, but he says.

[David McCloskey]

Smells the sausages in his bag.

[Gordon Carrera]

He smells the sausages and he goes, this guy is for real. And instantly decides he's not a chancer. But they also get the sense, I think right at the start that he's going to be hard to handle. This person, this guy who's still calling himself Yurasov. Lots of strange things about him. He doesn't want to talk at that point, exactly how he was able to get hold of this information and why he's doing what he's doing. He's quite evasive. But he reveals for the first time that his name is Vasily Mitrokin. And he says that for decades he was the archivist of the first Chief Directorate of the kgb, which we should say is the KGB was a huge institution in the Cold War and it included domestic security and lots of other code breaking. All came under the guise of the kgb. But the first Chief Directorate were the elite foreign spies. They were the equivalent of the CIA or MI6 within the KGB. And he was the archivist for them for decades. So he's saying he's stolen their secrets, but it's this interesting question, how do you steal a library? How do you steal an entire archive of secrets without anyone noticing? And of the most secret secrets in the world? And to do it in a way where no one seems to notice the files are missing. I mean, it's one of the fascinating things about Matrokin is both why he does it, but how he does it and how he got there is a really interesting story. It's a complicated mixture, I think, of grievance and ideology. Grievance because he'd been a proper foreign spy posted abroad. But his postings, which include Israel and Australia in the early Cold War, had gone wrong. And so he was banished effectively to the belly of the kgb. The Lubyanka, this famous headquarters in Moscow, the building and been sent there to work on the archives, effectively as punishment for having failed as a foreign spies. I mean, that's where he was sent. And so you can see why initially there is a sense of disappointment and grievance that's there for him.

[David McCloskey]

It is also kind of fascinating that the idea is let's take our failures and give them the most wide reaching access in the organization. Right to all the paper. Which I guess gives you some sense of the. The idea being that these people are so sort of maybe bumbling and incompetent and irrelevant. Like, what damage could they possibly do? It also made me think of Molly Duran and Slow Horses. Like, the people in the archives are always a little bit strange. You maybe don't join an intelligence service to sit in the archives. Right. And so you do end up, I suppose, with a group of people who have not cut it, typically in their line jobs for which they might have interviewed and joined. I mean, do we know when he was in Israel, in Australia, was he actually at fault for what happened or was he just not cut out for the job to begin with?

[Gordon Carrera]

I think people realize he is not a natural foreign intelligence officer. He is not someone who is naturally good at the cocktail party chat and sidling up to people. Nor is he very good at office politics. He's not very good with his colleagues. He's seen as kind of grumpy, a bit argumentative, a bit difficult. He's. He doesn't kind of play the game very well. And so they think to themselves, where can we get rid of him? We'll put him in the archives. And it is going to be the most damaging personnel decision, I think, in.

[David McCloskey]

Intelligence KGB ever made.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, that's for sure. Because when he's in the archives, he's not just angry, but he also starts to see over the years what's in the files. And he starts to read the files and absorb what's in the files. And there's this interesting interplay between events which are taking place in the outside world. Things like the Prague Spring in Czechoslovakia in 1968, when the Soviet Union ends up crushing a moment at which there looks like there'll be more freedom under communism. And at the same time, he's seeing those events in the outside world and reading in the files what the KGB is up to at that time and in other ways that it's repressing the people of the Soviet Union and spying on its own people. And I think this transforms his character, but over a period of years. I mean, really years, it's not a quick instant thing.

[David McCloskey]

How long is he in the archives for? In the end, decades.

[Gordon Carrera]

So effectively from 1956 to 1984. So, I mean, decades. I mean, most of his life. And it's interesting because he. He's a very introverted character.

[David McCloskey]

That makes sense. All those years in the archives, even if you're not naturally an introvert, I suppose all the years with the paper is going to. Is going to make you one and.

[Gordon Carrera]

Being seen quite dismissively, I think, by the other KGB officers. But in his own mind, of course, he becomes the hero of his own story, as all spies do. And he particularly sees himself in I think, semi mystical terms, as like a peasant hero from Russian folk stories. And he actually develops this, this quite spiritual, mythical idea that he is actually fighting a beast. And he actually visualizes what he's fighting and his enemy is a beast, a kind of dragon or a hydra with three heads, which are the Communist Party, the elite, the nomenclature of the Soviet Union, and finally, most importantly, the KGB and its spies. And he sees this beast as effectively feeding off the nation of Russia and destroying it. And he starts to see his own mission as being the hero from the folk stories who is going to try and slay this beast. So you can see these kind of quite odd ideas are swirling around in his brain, which I guess is, I mean, to be a spy or to get involved in this kind of work, to do the kind of things he's doing, you've got to be perhaps slightly odd.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, I think you're not. The psychology is off with most people who eventually volunteer. I also will note for listeners of the POD that we have yet another example of, of Gordon Carrera's affinity for a son deprived committer of espionage. Right, so there's a theme there. There is very much a theme here because I do not picture Matrokin as having a nice tan. I picture him as being quite, quite pasty. So he's working in the archives for the KGB's first chief directorate. And I always think of the first chief directorate as being out in Yasinovo and kind of the woods outside Moscow, which is eventually where the SVR has its headquarters. But of course that wasn't always the case. And so in the early 70s, this kind of real estate move, I guess, creates another opportunity for him.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right. So until 1972, the first chief Director has been in the Lubyanka with the rest of the KGB in the center of Moscow in this quite famous building. And that's where Matrokin has been working, literally in the basement.

[David McCloskey]

In the basement.

[Gordon Carrera]

In the basement, which is where the prison cells used to be as well. So it's not a particularly nice place, it's a kind of dark place. But now in 1972, as you said, they're moving to this place, Jasunevo, which is known as the forest or the woods, and they're going to have to move their files. And so at this point, Mitrokin is one of those few archivists responsible for overseeing the move of the files. So his job is going to be to weed them effectively, to go, these ones can be destroyed. These ones we need to keep. These ones we'll seal up and we'll move. And at this point, that gives him the opportunity to forge the weapon in his mind which he's going to use to fight this beast. And the weapon is going to be the truth that's in the files. And so he starts, and he's got his own office at this point, to copy what he sees. I mean, at first he actually tries to memorize it and then write it down when he goes home. Then he starts to copy it on tiny pieces of paper, which he will fold up and place in his shoe and then walk out of the offices of both headquarters. But the Libyanka, at first, with those details of the files on them, which he would then reconstitute in his home and in his dacha, his weekend kind of country house or cottage, because he's written them in kind of in his own special code to try and minimise the amount of space, kind of like shorthand. He will then reconstitute them into documents and into the story of the kgb. And it's amazing because he's got access to the files of the first Chief Directorate, which are things like the instructions going from Moscow center out to the residencies, the places in the embassies where the spies are based. It's got the details of agents, cultivation of agents, some of the production files of the reports that agents are sending back. And in later years, when they moved, Directorate S, which is in charge of the. The deep cover illegal spies, those are the kind of spies who assume different identities and different nationalities. They're the most secret identities the KGB has. He will also be in charge of moving those files and be able to note down details about those agents. So these are effectively the deepest secrets.

[David McCloskey]

Does he have their true names or did he have enough to kind of identify them?

[Gordon Carrera]

He has true names in some cases he can remember. And he writes down the passport numbers, the false names, the true names, the code names. There are still some files which are kept from him, which are some of the most sensitive files, but almost everything he can see. And he does this for 12 years, effectively 12 years of copying files down by day and then writing them up by night and weekend. I mean, it's kind of intense, isn't it?

[David McCloskey]

It's kind of Crazy.

[Gordon Carrera]

I think it is crazy.

[David McCloskey]

And I guess the other wild thing is he's not being run by as an asset or an agent in this period. He is doing this in his spare time as part of a plan that I would imagine cannot be even close to fully worked out in his own mind for what he does with this eventually. Right. I mean, he's just kind of stashing it away as he works.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's one of the things I find extraordinary. It's not as if he had any idea what he was going to do with it. I mean, he was doing what Russian or Soviet writers would talk about, which was writing for the draw, which meant you wrote knowing something might not be able to be published now, but in the hope that one day it could be published. And that's a kind of Russian tradition. And you see it with dissident writers. You see it with Bulgakov, who wrote the Master of Margarita and kind of wrote it secretly, and then eventually it comes out. So there is a tradition, I think, in Russia of doing this, of writing secretly. But you're right, he doesn't to seem see himself so much as a. As a spy, as a kind of secret dissident in parallel to those other dissidents in the Soviet Union at the time. No plan to get the stuff out. He also, and this is going to become important, he doesn't tell his family what he's doing. So he has a wife, Nina, and she is actually quite an eminent doctor. She's an academic expert. She lectures, she lectures abroad. She treats at various times, some of the Central Committee of the Communist Party. So she's quite a senior figure in her own right. And she's much more extroverted and outgoing and sociable than her husband. And they have a son, Vladimir. And Vladimir is important to this story. He's born in 1953, but it soon becomes clear that he has a muscle wasting disease which they struggle to diagnose and to treat. And he will end up in a wheelchair as a young man. And I think actually a lot of what Metrokin will do and will drive him will be driven by his son as well as that ideology and grievance and the desire, I think, partly to get treatment for him and to help him. And I think that's. That's something which he doesn't always openly acknowledge later, but I think is definitely one of the motivations for him.

[David McCloskey]

The archive is an asset that he can maybe a call option down the road on medicine or treatment outside of the Soviet Union or Russia. For Vladimir.

[Gordon Carrera]

They're both desperate to try and get treatment for their son. At one point, Nina actually takes the son to. And they both go to China to look for alternative treatments. This is during the Cold War. It's quite unusual to have that ability to travel, and it's part of a desperate desire to help him, really. But Matrockin is doing this. He's working on the files. He eventually retires in 1984, but he's still sitting on the files, you know, and he's thinking at this point about possible ways of getting them out, but he's quite scared. He's quite unsure about how to do that and where to take them, where he won't get caught. Because also, by the now, he's written them up. And it's not. If you think about Snowden, Edward Snowden could put these things on floppy disks or on USB drives, but here we're talking about piles of manuscripts that he's written up. You can't carry that out by yourself very easily either.

[David McCloskey]

How much physical space did they require?

[Gordon Carrera]

The whole archive would be, I guess, a large table's worth, but more than you can carry in a suitcase. Thousands of pages.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah. Hard to move in a clandestine way. I mean, do you get the sense that he was waiting for political change before he did something? Because, I mean, I guess the timing to me seems so. If he retires in 84, he's done this for 12 years. At that point, he's copying this archive and then he sits for another eight. Is he waiting for a political opportunity? What's driving that period of time, do you think?

[Gordon Carrera]

I think he is looking for an opportunity. There are moments where he goes close to borders or looks at possible ways of crossing borders, but he's always too nervous about doing it because I think he fears getting caught. He knows the consequences for him will be terrible, and he knows that if he's caught, the archive will be captured and then everything will have been for nothing. So I think there is a bit of nervousness, and that is until the Soviet Union collapses. And at that point, 1991, the Soviet Union is effectively gone. And the Baltic states, so Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, have become independent. Border controls have also weakened. And so at that point, he realizes he can get across to a Baltic state, a newly independent Baltic state, where there are, he hopes, an American embassy, but he's going to find a British embassy with a bag, with, if you like, a sample, like a kind of traveling salesman. He's got a sample in his bag, which he can show to them and try and convince them that he's got the real deal in the secret. So as a result, by April 1992, he's finally sitting there with these two MI6 officers. And it's interesting because he makes clear he is willing to hand over his entire archive. But there are two things he wants two guarantees he's clear about. First, he wants to get his whole family out, all of them, Although they, so far, he says, know nothing about what he's done. So you can see there's a slight tension there.

[David McCloskey]

What did his wife think he was doing when he was copying the documents? Because I would imagine, I'm just imagining now if I was sitting in my office here, like, just sort of endlessly on the weekends, writing longhand, that at some point someone's gonna ask a question. My sons, my wife, like, what are you doing? He must have had an alibi.

[Gordon Carrera]

I think he was just so solitary and introverted that he really. He really got away with it.

[David McCloskey]

I mean, he was just in his study again, kind of reading or writing, and no one.

[Gordon Carrera]

Dad's in the study again.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, exactly.

[Gordon Carrera]

But they don't know. But it is interesting. It's clearly very important to him that they get out and that the whole family get out. And that is a condition that MI6 will have to get his family out. The second condition he has, though, is also very interesting because unusually, I think, for a spy, he says he wants his archive to be made public. He wants it to be published. Now, that is unusual.

[David McCloskey]

That is unusual. The family bit's not necessarily. But this one is. I mean, coming out and saying, I want all of the secret stuff to be in print. It's maybe not the natural response of the committer of espionage, because most would.

[Gordon Carrera]

Either want no one to ever know what they've done, or they know it's going to be kind of technical secrets. And I think it goes back to that idea of what he thought he was, which was this secret dissident who'd been writing for the draw, who'd been writing in the hope that one day the truth would get out.

[David McCloskey]

He wants his work published.

[Gordon Carrera]

He wants his work published like any author.

[David McCloskey]

Like any author.

[Gordon Carrera]

But I think it goes back to that slightly spiritual sense he has, the mystical sense in which he views his archive actually as a weapon. It is the truth. And the truth is a weapon because it can pierce the kind of armor of lies that the KGB and the Soviet Union has built up about what's happened and destroy this beast which he has seen in his mind. And so it's very important to him that it's going to be published.

[David McCloskey]

He didn't ask for money, by the way.

[Gordon Carrera]

No, no.

[David McCloskey]

Wow.

[Gordon Carrera]

Definitely no interest in money. So absolutely kind of ideologically and personally motivated in that sense. So those are the two conditions. They're sitting there in April, Robert and James with him, and they message back to MI6 headquarters at Century House looking for instructions. They say, this guy looks good. Can we give him these guarantees for this? And I love it because they get an answer back from MI6 saying it will probably be a fine, it'll probably be okay. Which is maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe not. Like I think any good spy, they kind of edge the truth slightly. When they go back and talk to Matrockin that day after a few hours gap and basically tell him it's on, they forget the problem. It's solid.

[David McCloskey]

It's rock solid. We're all the publishing deal in hand right now.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, it's all good. So now the question for MI6 is, you know, how do you get a man, his files and his family out of the country from under the watching eyes of Russian intelligence? And that is what's going to cause some of the headaches and the showdown at the docks in Lithuania in November?

[David McCloskey]

And so maybe there, Gordon, on that wonderfully Carreran cliffhanger. And when we come back next time for the thrilling conclusion of the Vasily Matrokin story, we'll see exactly how MI6 does it, how they get him and his architect archive out. But we should note, Gordon, of course, that members of our declassified club can get early access to that episode. Right now all you have to do is go to the restisclassified.com, become a member of the club and start listening. Right now we might get a sudden.

[Gordon Carrera]

Spike in membership applications from Moscow, from.

[David McCloskey]

Former KGB dangles and walk ins of the FS be. That's right.

[Gordon Carrera]

Well, how did the British have to know? Now all are welcome.

[David McCloskey]

Really, all are welcome.

[Gordon Carrera]

Okay, we'll see you next time.

[David McCloskey]

We'll see you next time.