50. The Man Who Tried To Kill The KGB: On the Run from Russia (Ep 2)

Summary

Summary of Podcast Episode 50: "The Man Who Tried To Kill The KGB: On the Run from Russia (Ep 2)"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Rest Is Classified
• Host/Author: Goalhanger
• Description: Enter the secretive world of spies, espionage, and covert operations. Hosted by former CIA analyst turned spy novelist, David McCloskey, and veteran security correspondent, Gordon Corera, this podcast unravels real-life spy stories, intelligence secrets, and the hidden power struggles shaping global events.
• Episode: 50. The Man Who Tried To Kill The KGB: On the Run from Russia (Ep 2)
• Release Date: May 27, 2025

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1. Introduction to Vasily Mitrokin and His Mission

The episode delves into the harrowing story of Vasily Mitrokin, an introverted archivist turned whistleblower who risked everything to expose the darkest secrets of the KGB. Gordon Carrera sets the stage by painting a vivid scene of early November 1992 in Vilnius, Lithuania, where Mitrokin and his family are on the brink of an exfiltration operation orchestrated by MI6.

Gordon Carrera [02:02]: "Mitrokin has stolen some of the deepest secrets from the archives of the KGB and on the rest is classified."

2. Mitrokin’s Disillusionment and Espionage Activities

Mitrokin's journey began with a profound disillusionment with the KGB. Over 12 years, he meticulously copied the agency's most sensitive documents, aspiring to dismantle the very institution he once served. Initially approaching the Americans, Mitrokin was turned away, only to have MI6 take up his cause, ensuring his safety and that of his family's.

Gordon Carrera [04:19]: "We've been looking at how this man, who was the introverted, slightly odd archivist at the KGB, had become disillusioned with the spy service he'd been working for and spent 12 years copying down its deepest secrets."

3. The Exfiltration Operation in Vilnius

The core of the episode details the intricate operation to extract Mitrokin and his family from Lithuania into the West. As November 1992 loomed, tensions were high with the Soviet Union still exerting control over the region. The operation involved a commandeered minibus, armed MI6 agents, and Lithuanian escorts, all navigating the precarious political landscape.

Robert [02:29]: "Things are not going well."

As the family arrives at the train station, the tension escalates. Mitrokin's son, Vladimir, begins to suspect the true nature of their mission, leading to a volatile confrontation that nearly jeopardizes the exfiltration.

Gordon Carrera [10:05]: "They're armed, they're tooled up."

4. Family Dynamics and Operational Challenges

A significant hurdle in the operation was Mitrokin’s family's lack of awareness about the true purpose of their exfiltration. His wife, Nina, an eminent doctor, and his son, Vladimir, unaware of his espionage activities, posed emotional and logistical challenges. Mitrokin's determination to protect them while ensuring the success of the mission added layers of complexity to the already delicate operation.

Gordon Carrera [07:00]: "He has to involve Nina in the decision making and get her to agree."

The climax at the docks showcases Vladimir's realization and emotional breakdown upon discovering his father's true identity, creating a moment of crisis that the MI6 agents had to swiftly navigate to prevent exposing the mission.

Robert [14:15]: "To have that yelled out during the exfiltration...could be fatal."

5. MI6 and CIA Cooperation

The podcast explores the intricate relationship between MI6 and the CIA during the operation. While MI6 led the exfiltration, financial constraints led them to seek assistance from the Americans, highlighting the collaborative yet sometimes strained dynamics between Western intelligence agencies.

Robert [24:43]: "This is Britain in the early 90s... the treasury was struggling to pay for."

This partnership underscored the high stakes involved and the significant resources required to successfully extract a high-value defector like Mitrokin and his family.

6. The Aftermath and Legacy of Mitrokin’s Actions

Post-exfiltration, Mitrokin faced numerous challenges, including the publication of his vast archive of KGB secrets. Despite his intentions to act as a patriot, his relationship with MI6 soured as he felt he was losing control over his own narrative and the dissemination of the sensitive information he had gathered.

Gordon Carrera [30:21]: "Mitrokin's relationship with MI6 breaks down... he feels like he's losing control of his own archive."

His collaboration with historian Christopher Andrew led to the publication of his findings, but personal tragedies, including his wife Nina’s terminal illness, overshadowed these achievements.

7. The Enduring Threat of Chekism and Modern Implications

Mitrokin's fight was not merely against the historical KGB but against the enduring ideology he termed "Chekism," a term referring to the oppressive legacy of the Cheka, the precursor to the KGB. He foresaw the rise of figures like Vladimir Putin as embodiments of this ideology, perpetuating the cycle of repression and surveillance.

Robert [37:23]: "The Cheka was... organized terror...designed to control and sow chaos."

Mitrokin's warnings about the resurgence of such ideologies remained unheeded, leading to a tragic conclusion where his life's work did not prevent the continued rise of repressive forces within Russia.

Gordon Carrera [44:09]: "It's a tragedy ultimately that he wanted to warn the world... but people weren't really able or willing to listen."

8. Conclusion: Triumph and Tragedy

The episode concludes by reflecting on Mitrokin's dual legacy—his undeniable contribution to exposing the KGB's depths and the personal sacrifices he endured. While his efforts provided invaluable insights into Soviet espionage, the persistent rise of oppressive ideologies in Russia rendered his mission only partially successful.

Robert [44:09]: "The triumph and the tragedy of Vasily Mitrokin will conclude our dive into the archive."

Listeners are encouraged to further explore Mitrokin’s story through Gordon Carrera’s upcoming book, "The Spy in the Archive," promising a more detailed exploration of his life and the espionage surrounding the KGB's darkest secrets.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Gordon Carrera [02:02]: "Mitrokin has stolen some of the deepest secrets from the archives of the KGB and on the rest is classified."

• Robert [02:29]: "Things are not going well."

• Gordon Carrera [07:00]: "He has to involve Nina in the decision making and get her to agree."

• Robert [14:15]: "To have that yelled out during the exfiltration...could be fatal."

• Gordon Carrera [30:21]: "Mitrokin's relationship with MI6 breaks down... he feels like he's losing control of his own archive."

• Robert [37:23]: "The Cheka was... organized terror...designed to control and sow chaos."

• Gordon Carrera [44:09]: "It's a tragedy ultimately that he wanted to warn the world... but people weren't really able or willing to listen."

---

Final Thoughts:

"The Man Who Tried To Kill The KGB: On the Run from Russia" offers a gripping exploration of Vasily Mitrokin's courageous yet ultimately tragic efforts to dismantle one of the most formidable intelligence agencies in history. Through detailed storytelling and expert analysis by David McCloskey and Gordon Carrera, listeners gain a profound understanding of the complexities and personal costs involved in espionage and the enduring battle against oppressive ideologies.

Transcript

[Gordon Carrera]

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[James]

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[Gordon Carrera]

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[James]

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[Gordon Carrera]

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[Meghan Trainor]

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[Gordon Carrera]

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[David McCloskey]

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[Vasily]

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[Gordon Carrera]

Mitrokin has stolen some of the deepest secrets from the archives of the kgb and on the rest is classified. We're going to see how MI6. Get the man, his secrets and his family out of the country and into the west and we'll learn whether his warning about Vladimir Putin will be listened to.

[Robert]

James's requisitioned passenger car raced through the narrow, bumpy streets of Vilnius. The car pulled into the forecourt of the station. He was 19 minutes late. As he walked into the cavernous hall, he saw with despair the sign for the train was being removed from the arrivals board. He strode as fast as he could around the waiting areas, scanning for any sign of the agent or his family, but there was none. Things were not going well. As he paced in the distance, he saw a train coming in on the tracks, the doors opened and bleary eyed passengers began to disembark. Russians and Lithuanians intermingled families, workers, but no Matrokins. But then at the far end of the platform, he finally saw movement. It was a wheelchair being lowered to the ground from, from the very last coach. There at last was Matrokin, his wife, his son in the wheelchair and his mother in law moving slowly with a stick. There was relief, but also the dawning realization that this was the motley crew he was now going to have to smuggle out of the country. Welcome to the Rest Is classified. I'm David McCloskey.

[Gordon Carrera]

And I'm Gordon Carrera.

[Robert]

And that is a beautifully painted scene in early November of 1992 in Lithuania in prose that listeners to this podcast will of course by now just have imprinted Gordon inside their ears. That is another thrilling section of a book, Gordon, that is coming out here in the next few weeks in the UK called the Spy in the Archive. And it is written by of course you, Gordon Carrera and is all about Vasily Mitrokin, really the espionage around the KGB's darkest secrets. And it is the subject of our finale today on the story of Vasily Metrokin.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right. So we've been looking at how this man, who was the introverted, slightly odd archivist at the KGB, had become disillusioned with the spy service he'd been working for and spent 12 years copying down its deepest secrets. And, and then at first approached, I'm afraid, the Americans and been turned away.

[Robert]

We love turning away a valuable Russian, Gordon. It's in the CIA's nature. He's either a bum or a dangle. So we sent him your way, kicked him on down the road in Vilnius.

[Gordon Carrera]

But the Brits got him and the Brits have, they're taking up the American seconds. And he'd said he wanted two things. He wanted his archive to be published and his family to get out.

[Robert]

He just wanted a publishing deal, Gordon, and he had to commit espionage to get there.

[Gordon Carrera]

Many an author has gone to great.

[Robert]

Great, many an author would do far worse things for a publishing deal. So it's, It's November of 1992 and this very dramatic exfiltration is underway to get Matrokin and his family out and to Britain. And Gordon, I will say, really a lot of the story that we're going to tell today is very much in the classified version of the Rest Is classified. Right. Because much of this story, even though of course, many of Matrokin's secrets have been published before. The story about the man and the story about this exfiltration really hasn't. So we are, we're declassifying it today, wouldn't you say?

[Gordon Carrera]

We are revealing it for the first time. That's right. I mean, before, if you looked in the various books about mutrotokin, there is no real detail about how, how this happened. And the story of how he got out, a lid has been kept on it, which we are lifting today in this podcast and in the book as well. And I think there are reasons which, which we'll come to, which might explain one of the reasons why it's been quite sensitive. And a lot of this will revolve around his family and the importance of his family. Because as you read there, the family are coming off the train. This is the train from Moscow. They're being met initially by James, a British MI6 officer, and Robert, who he's working with, who is his Russian born agent partner.

[Robert]

Robert's not his Christian name for listeners. I got confused on this in the last episode. Yes, Robert is very much a pseudonym.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, Robert is a pseudonym. And the plan is that they're going to get this family out by boat. Now there is a problem here, which is the family, not all the family know what's going on. And this is very interesting because Mitrokin had been stealing all these secrets, but he had never told his family what.

[Robert]

He was doing, which does make sense, I would say.

[Gordon Carrera]

There's a logic there. You're protecting your wife, who is a kind of member of Soviet society. But he's told MI6 he won't leave without them, that if they won't go, he won't go. So eventually he does tell his wife Nina. He comes in and out of Vilnius a few times, we should say, even comes to Britain at one point in the autumn of 1992, briefly himself. And in this period he tells Nina and he's not sure actually whether she's going to agree to leave. She's a successful member of Russian society, she's an eminent doctor, she's more outgoing, she's got lots of friends. If she'd said no at this point, the whole thing would have been off. But she does agree. And it's interesting because they have, I think they have a kind of complicated relationship, which is. How would I put it? I mean, people described it to me as being very close on the one hand, but many things were left unsaid, I think between them, that kind of relationship.

[Robert]

They had their secrets.

[Gordon Carrera]

They had their secrets. And I Think that's certainly the case.

[Robert]

I guess in his case it's that he'd copied down the KGB's entire archive over 12 years in their dacha. Yeah. So I guess he was good at keeping secrets.

[Gordon Carrera]

But then there are two other people who've got to get out. One is her mother. So Mitrokin's mother in law, an elderly woman who's grown up in Soviet society and is not necessarily in the best of health. And then there is Mitrokin's son, Vladimir, and he is at this stage in a wheelchair. He's been suffering from a muscle wasting disease. He's now in his 30s. He's smart, he's been to university in Moscow, he's well educated, he's got friends in the city. Now, here's the problem. When they get off that train in that scene that you'd read at the start, those two, Metrokin's mother in law and son, don't know what's going on. So there is.

[Robert]

It's a good setup.

[Gordon Carrera]

It's a good setup.

[Robert]

Was he hoping the mother in law would be nabbed and sent back, or did he want her?

[Gordon Carrera]

I think we could assume that his wife probably said, I'm only coming if my mother is coming, which I think would make sense. So they've got a cover story which is being used for this operation, that they're actually taking the son to a sanatorium, a health clinic overseas, and that's the reason why they're crossing the border. But interestingly enough, that is a cover story not just for any border guards they meet, but for two members of the family themselves, including the son and the mother in law, that they think they're going to a sanatorium, a health clinic.

[Robert]

Is the thinking that both he and the mother in law, if told the real reason inside Moscow, might have told the authorities or not gone along with it, because Mutrokin obviously felt like he needed to involve Nina in the decision making and get her to agree. But he doesn't presumably give his adult son the same agency.

[Gordon Carrera]

I think we assume that he fears what their reaction might be and knows that could blow the whole thing. And he's got this plan which he considers his life's work. And remember, he's on this kind of semi spiritual mission to destroy the kgb, to destroy this kind of beast, this creature in his mind, the dragon, the Hydra, which is kind of feeding off his own country, Russia. So he's got that level of dedication and he's, I think, fearful of the reaction. So at this Point they met at the train station. The MI6 team is going to take them out in an almost comically small minibus. It's not the original vehicle.

[Robert]

The original feels very British to me.

[Gordon Carrera]

It is very British.

[Robert]

Get a very teensy car to take them out in.

[Gordon Carrera]

Teensy car because the original minibus is broken down so they literally had to commandeer this one. Off the streets, it's very cramped. The mother in law is sitting in the back next to Robert, this Russian speaking MI6 agent. And she's asking can you move that thing that's jutting into me as they're sitting next to each other? And he doesn't want to tell her. It's actually a small F1 hand grenade that he's carrying in his pocket in case things take a turn for the worst.

[Robert]

He's got a hand grenade.

[Gordon Carrera]

He's got a hand grenade in his pocket and he's. I mean, they're armed, so the team are armed and they've also got some Lithuanian heavies who are escorting them, who are also armed because the fear is. You know, it's really interesting. Even though Lithuania at this point is independent, the Red army is still in the country. So what was the Red Army? The Soviet Union's military has still got bases and thousands of troops in the country including the port where they're heading. And the KGB is still, or what was the KGB and now changing its name, is still very active in the country and is still trying to put down routes and build agents and networks across, including the security services around the government, around the ports around the country is still very active. They're seeing it as part of the Soviet Union even though the Soviet Union has now just died. So they are very worried that, that they could be stopped, there could be violence, there could be trouble. So they're armed, they're tooled up.

[Robert]

And I guess, you know, it's also maybe worth painting the picture at this point of we're talking about the early 90s in Russia and the former Baltic States, former parts of the Soviet Union, that it's extremely lawless as well. I mean, I have known former Russia House guys who would talk about being in Moscow or St. Petersburg, which had its name changed from Leningrad back in that period. And they would talk about street violence, bombs going off, shootings all the time. So I guess there's probably also a concern here of just organized crime, banditry, like it's a security hazard in the same way that we might consider a war zone today in some respects.

[Gordon Carrera]

I think there was an election which was about to come up in the coming days. There was worried the Russians could maybe kind of stage some kind of coup, perhaps that all of that could explode. So it's definitely a time of turmoil and of difficulty. So eventually they get to Klaipeda, the docks, where they're due to meet a boat which has been secured by Swedish intelligence, who are playing a role there in supplying the boat which is going to get them wrong. The helpful Swedes.

[Robert]

Have the Swedes appeared yet on our podcast as friends of the Pod? I don't think we've talked about Swedish intelligence yet.

[Gordon Carrera]

Welcome to Swedish Intelligence. Any listeners, welcome Swedish military intelligence.

[Robert]

Welcome to Was it Sappo? Welcome, Sappo. That's on your bingo cards, listeners. Go ahead and cross that off now.

[Gordon Carrera]

So they. They've provided the boat, but this is the moment, the docks, when things start to go wrong. And what's fascinating is it's family rather than the kgb, which causes the problem, because the son and the mother in law are getting suspicious. I mean, they're suspicious about some of the strange men who are with them because the Lithuanian heavies, the Lithuanian heavies do not look like sanatorium workers who they've been told they are.

[Robert]

Hand grenade and Lithuanian heavies have started. The mother in law is getting concerned.

[Gordon Carrera]

Getting concerned that this is a bit strange. So they're asking questions. And at the docks, they finally get there, they get out of this tiny yellow minibus, they get the wheelchair out for Vladimir, and they place him into it. It's at this point, though, that he realizes this trip is not what he thought it was. And he suddenly works out what's going on. He's a, you know, he's a smart guy, he's not stupid. And he begins shouting at this point in Russian because for the first time he really understands who his father is and that his father is not who he thought he was. That he's not just this quiet librarian, if you like, or archivist, but actually someone different. You're a spy, he says now, I mean, that is an accusation not ideal.

[Robert]

To have that yelled out during the exfil. If you.

[Gordon Carrera]

Not during an exfil, when you're worried about the KGB present, I mean, it could be fatal, couldn't it? And people are trying to calm him down at that point, but it's not working. And the realization, I think, dawns on him that he's going away and leaving Moscow and he's never going back. And it's interesting, one person remembers him saying what will my friends think? That's what he says to one of the people present. I haven't been able to tell them anything. It's the shock of learning who his father is and that he is leaving his life behind, and he's clearly not had an easy life at this point. And so people are trying to calm him down, but the shouting is getting louder. He's hurling Russian swear words, and there's one word that he shouts at his father, and the word is traitor. Now, I mean Mitrokin, Vasily Mitrokin, I don't think saw himself in any way as a traitor. I think we should say that he saw himself actually as a patriot who loved Russia but hated the KGB and what this beast had been doing to Russia. So he very much sees himself as a patriot who was trying to help his country. He's trying to save his country. So you can imagine that kind of. This is a moment which you would think would hurt deeply. And yet Vasily Metrokhin remains quite calm himself. But for Robert And James, the MI6 team, this is starting to go wrong. Robert is trying to push the wheelchair up the gangplank onto the boat, but as he does so, it becomes clear there's a problem because the wheelchair is too wide to get up on the gangplank that leads to the boat, which they've got to get on. And now Vladimir the son, is clutching the arms of the wheelchair and not letting go as he shouts and swears about what's happening. So they're stuck. James is beginning to panic. Attention is being drawn by all this shouting, and it certainly looks to any bystanders if something very strange and very odd is happening. Robert seems almost flummoxed by this, unusually so. So James looks at Robert and shouts at him in English. I don't care what you have to effing do. Rather than use the.

[Robert]

Oh, you missed the opportunity for the forum. Okay, let's use Callum's big gun.

[Gordon Carrera]

Okay. I don't like swearing, you know, David, but. Well, let's bring Callum's BLEEP gum in chat.

[Robert]

You want me to do it?

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, go on, you do it.

[Robert]

Want me to read this piece of dialogue? James looks at Robert and shouts at him in English. All right, Callum, get the BLEEP gun ready. I don't care what you have to do. Get him on board.

[Gordon Carrera]

Very good. You much better get the novelist's sense of how to do the drama.

[Robert]

That's right. What this feels like, if I'm a Lithuanian dock worker, is that he's being kidnapped. I mean, that's because. That's what.

[Gordon Carrera]

Because what happens next? I mean, what does Robert do? The only thing he's got to get him off the wheelchair. So he raises his fist and then he brings his fist down hard on Vladimir's hands, which were gripping the armrest of the wheelchair. That releases Vladimir's hands. And with that, Robert picks up this figure, hauls him over his shoulder and walks him onto the boat.

[Robert]

Kidnapping vibes.

[Gordon Carrera]

It's got kidnapping vibes. I mean, it does look like an abduction. I mean, strangely enough, Vasili Machokin, people who were there remember him being very still and calm. But you're right, it does appear on the surface to look like that. And I think that's one of the reasons why this story has never, you know, there's been some disquiet perhaps about this story.

[Robert]

I guess in one light, it's the British Secret Intelligence Service kidnapping an unwilling Russian.

[Gordon Carrera]

I'm going to say what's interesting about that, because you're right, that's what it could look like on the surface. But what's interesting and what maybe is quite surprising is that actually Vladimir quite quickly does come to terms with it and gets over it. And in the book, there's actually a picture from the boat itself that they're then on, on this journey which is going to take them to Sweden. And there's a picture of father and son just after this has all happened. And Vladimir, at this point, the son looks almost relieved and definitely calm. And I think much of what happened was the shock of at that moment learning who his father was. And on the boat, he is reassured by the team that he's going to get a new life, he's going to get a new set of documents, and he's going to get the medical care that I think his father always wanted for him. And that this has always been one of the kind of motivating desires from the father is to get the medical care. So I think that once that's explained to him, he come to terms with it very quickly and then certainly is not in any way resisting of it. So I think it is that moment of shock. There is some lingering resentment. I understand that was there for a while, but actually it's interesting. He does come in the long term to a new relationship with his father and actually they end up arguably closer than they ever were before. And I think he'll come to respect his father. And actually in the long run, he is the one who seeks to preserve his father's legacy. So I think that moment at the docks is. It's fleeting even if it is dangerous at that moment. But it is a reminder, I think that the one thing that can complicate events even in well planned spy operations is family.

[Robert]

The three headed hydra didn't disrupt the exfil. It was his kid and maybe mother in law. So maybe there. Gordon, let's take a break and we come back we we'll look at why he matters so much even today and why Vasily Mitrokin is ultimately a tragic figure.

[Gordon Carrera]

See you after the break. Meghan Trainor, laundry retrainer Meghan Trainor.

[James]

You're tossing out my gunky laundry detergent bottle.

[Gordon Carrera]

Ooey, it's got that booty, that juicy boom boom that gonna fly alive.

[James]

Arm and hammer power sheets.

[Gordon Carrera]

Toss like this. Arm and hammer power sheets. More power to you.

[Meghan Trainor]

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[James]

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[Robert]

Well, welcome back. It is 1992. Vasily Mitral has gone to Britain with a library of the KGB's darkest secrets. And Gordon, I mean one thing we just talked about how his son and his wife and his mother in law were all brought out. But we didn't talk about the documents in that. I mean we talked earlier about how this was actually a pretty massive trove of information. And so physically, I mean it's boxes and boxes of material. But did that also get dumped onto the boat with him on the way to Sweden or had he kind of done that earlier?

[Gordon Carrera]

It's interesting because again, there's a bit of misdirection if you read some of the accounts that have come out before, which claim that they were left in Moscow and someone went to dig them up and bring them out after the family got out, that's not.

[Robert]

That seems harder.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, that's a lot harder. So he'd actually made a series of visits to. To Vilnius. So he makes that one in April, he makes another one in June. He does also comes out in September and actually goes to Britain at that point. Point. And at those points, he's brought out the bulk of his documents in those kind of grubby bags. He's worked out he's going to get them out that way. So it's not as if at this final moment, he's got to bring out the whole archive because it's pretty big, you know, fits on a table. It's big boxes, envelopes, basically full of notes, full of files, some of which he's typed up. And it is a treasure trove for Western intelligence. It's enormously important. Interesting enough. One of the first things the Brits do when. When they first make contact with him. So back in. After April, that first meeting, they go tell the Americans, they go, that's good.

[Robert]

I approve. Yeah. Of this idea.

[Gordon Carrera]

And they know because he's already approached the Americas, they say, we're now in play with the guy who calls himself Yurasov. And they partly tell the Americans because they don't want them to go back to him, having realized their mistake, and then kind of complicate the operation, but also because they kind of saying, we've got a lot of material that you might be interested in. Another reason, which I discovered is because. Money. The Brits need the money. The treasury wasn't willing to stump up the cash. And so the Brits basically have to go to the Americans and say, could you give us a million dollars, please?

[Robert]

The cash for the resettlement.

[Gordon Carrera]

For the resettlement, yeah.

[Robert]

Oh, that's poor, isn't it? You guys couldn't pay for the resettlement into Britain.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. So we should be clear, he's not being paid, like, money. He's not after this for the money. But it costs to resettle a defector. It cost like a million dollars at least. And especially if you've got a family, you need a house, you need all these things. So those costs the Brits were struggling to pay for. And so they end up going to the Americans saying, look, we'll give you full access to this treasure trove of counterintelligence material, and in return, could you please Give us some money which the FBI and CIA, by the way, go halves on.

[Robert]

Did no one have a million like you didn't have a million? MI6 didn't have a million.

[Gordon Carrera]

This is Britain in the early 90s. I mean, this was, heaven forbid, the idea of Britain being a struggling economy which is unable to pay the bills. But back in the 90s, it might have felt like that. And I think particularly it scraped together a million. But also particularly, to be fair, I think the idea was the Cold War was over. The treasury are kind of like you spies. We're about to cut your budget. We're not quite sure why we need you anymore. Why are we giving a million pounds or a million dollars to some defector who's got some secrets from the past?

[Robert]

These papers that smell like sausages.

[Gordon Carrera]

Exactly.

[Robert]

Bottom of his bag, I guess. It's also, this is, I think, a great little case study with some of the dynamics of the cooperation between the CIA and sis. Because, number one, you mentioned this great point of the Brits coming to the Americans to make sure that the Americans don't go back and talk to Matrokin, which could have some selfish motivations, but is also just making sure we're not running into each other.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. Be conflicting.

[Robert]

Yeah. Deconfliction, which oftentimes can be the spark for joint work together, intel sharing on human cases. Just let's make sure we're not stepping on each other's toes. The money thing we're kind of laughing at, but, I mean, I think is a feature of. We're a much bigger intelligence sort of apparatus. Right. In the States. There's a lot more capital at that point. And now, frankly. And so the idea here, from MI6's perspective, that you've got great information, you've got this guy for us to get access to it, presumably we would do something to kind of come to the table. Right. And so we pony up some money. You're running the guy, you've done the work to get him out. We're going to pay a little bit for the product and then we'll all share it. I mean, this is a classic case study in how these services. Because there's no written agreement that you have to do any of this stuff, but it's just kind of, you know, there's reasons to get us involved, there's reasons to deconflict. And so sort of joint work can snowball from. From those factors and I think frequently does.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, it's a good insight. Funny little anecdote, is that there's one point where some Americans come to meet Mitrokin in London, and there's a group of them, and he says to them, which one of you is from the CIA? And one guy holds up his hand, and I think he's actually a second D from the FBI to CIA. And Mitrockin then lays into him and basically goes, I approached you guys first, and you turn me down and it's your fault I'm with the Brits now, which. Which sounds quite like insulting to the Brits.

[Robert]

Is he actually mad, though?

[Gordon Carrera]

He is mad, and he's really angry. And, I mean, it gives you some idea. This is a guy who was quite difficult, who had a bit of a temper. One of the reasons, interesting enough, which seems to be why he had approached the Brits first, was he thought he'd get the best medical care for his son through the Americans because kind of, I guess, the impression of American healthcare. So.

[Robert]

Yeah. So you're socialized medicine, Gordon.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, he didn't want to come at me with that. He's not going to.

[Robert]

That lived under that in Moscow. Moscow for a long time. Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

So. So it's interesting. There's anger there. And actually the Brits say to the Americans, kind of this meeting goes quite badly. And the Brits afterwards say to him, don't worry, it'll be fine. But you get a sense there about this being a difficult man. But the treasure trove he's brought out is staggering. I mean, there's 3,500 counterintelligence reports issued to 36 countries which identify about 1,000 KGB agents. So it's a motherload, really.

[Robert]

Wow.

[Gordon Carrera]

Of people who'd spied for the KGB going back decades, many are still in place. Some of it is history. And, you know, for some countries, like France, Italy, India, to take just a few examples, it's actually quite embarrassing, the scale of penetration by the KGB that's revealed by those documents. I mean, and that's one of the problems is it's. You'd think it would be good news going to these countries and go, hey, we've got some KGB files which reveal what they were up to in your country. But actually, it causes headaches for these countries because they're suddenly like, whoa, these are people who are still alive, or in some cases, they're politicians or diplomats or people who are still in office.

[Robert]

And are they still working for the Russian for the FSB or the KGB at this point?

[Gordon Carrera]

In some cases. I mean, in many cases, they're historic. But it's a real problem Another thing that's amazing is that Moscow doesn't realize he's missing. And this is. This is. I think one of the craziest details of the operation is because he's retired. Retired in 84, they've actually come up with a way of pretending that he's still in the country. There's two family dachas in the countryside and as well as an apartment in Moscow. People are constantly going to think, oh, well, he must be at the other place. And they're going to kind of create that impression that he's not disappeared.

[Robert]

They being the.

[Gordon Carrera]

That the American. The kgb. Yeah. The Brits are going to help create that impression. And so the KGB do not actually realize that their secrets have been stolen. And of course, because he's copied the files rather than stolen actual original files, there's nothing that's actually missing from this archive.

[Robert]

But his wife was a doctor. What happened?

[Gordon Carrera]

What did they. Yeah.

[Robert]

Did she close her practice or Guests.

[Gordon Carrera]

Retired and moved to the countryside. And because you've got three different locations where the family could be. I mean, it does seem extraordinary, but it also gives you an idea that I think part of the reason was because he was so introverted himself, no.

[Robert]

One noticed he had already gone missing. Years earlier. He had already gone missing.

[Gordon Carrera]

So, you know, it's crazy.

[Robert]

Were the Brits turning, like, going into the dachos and like turning the lights on?

[Gordon Carrera]

Well, I think there was ways of sending letters and documents to try and maintain this cover story that he's not gone, which gives people a chance to exploit this information and all these amazing details. And there's going to be people who had spied for the KGB inside the United States, including in places like the National Security Agency, who had not been known about or discovered until Mitrokin comes out with details, who are then going to be prosecuted as a result. So there are lots of examples of that. So that's one side of it. He had two conditions, of course, for coming out. One was get the family out. The other one was to get a book published. In other words, to get his archive published. That's going to take quite a few years, I'd imagine.

[Robert]

Mi6 wasn't so keen to get that one on the shelves in the first few months. Right. Because I guess the dynamic as soon as he comes out has got to be that. That information. I mean, I'd imagine it's just this immensely laborious process for the debriefing teams to understand what they have. And then, as you mentioned, as soon as you find Something you, let's say it's about the KGB's penetration of the French military or something like that. It's then really complicated to figure out exactly how you share that information and kind of parcel it out who you share it with. So this is a gotta be painstaking work to go through all of this information because there's so much.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. And it's almost overwhelming, I think. But finally, by 1999 they've got a book nearly ready. It's co written with Christopher Andrew, who's a kind of eminent British historian of the intelligence services. But one thing, I mean, I discovered when researching my book was just how difficult and painful this experience was. And basically Mitrokin's relationship with MI6 breaks down at this point very badly. I mean, he feels like he's losing control of his own archive. He's quite angry at the process. He at one point talks about getting lawyers in to try and stop the publication. I mean, he's pretty unhappy about it. I mean, there is a question about the copyright of the files and one person they put it to me was that the people who had the best claim to the copyright of the files, probably the KGB rather than either MI6 or the dragon himself. But I think they're unlikely to sue over their secrets.

[Robert]

They'll do far worse things than that.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, I mean, they eventually get through that. And another added problem is that at this point his wife Nina has herself been diagnosed with a motor neurone disease and she is dying and in terrible pain and she's going to die just around that time that the book comes out in 1999. It should be a moment of triumph for him, but actually it's a very difficult moment. But that book does eventually emerge.

[Robert]

It's a bit of a doorstop too, if I might say so myself. It's a quite thick book and I mean, not nearly as sort of insightful and creatively written and thrilling as the Spy in the Archive. Well, Gordon Carrera book coming out here.

[Gordon Carrera]

But that's because it's a different kind of book because, I mean, it's a book about the secrets. It's. I mean, it's, you know, his book is a history of the kgb.

[Robert]

Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

First in the west and then in Africa. And they are really important books. But to some extent the publication is. Is overshadowed by specific stories in Britain. There's one story which is about why MI5 and the police had failed to prosecute an old woman called Melita Norwood, who'd actually been involved in giving atomic secrets to the Soviet Union around the time of Second World War, just afterwards, 50 years earlier, and she's still alive in South London. And so the story becomes this granny, who's still alive, had once sold Britain's atomic secrets to the Soviet Union. Why hasn't anything been done about her? Whereas in America, it's all about secret arms caches. Did the KGB hide secret arms caches around the country, which they had done in Europe, and, you know, had the FBI done enough about it and said one of the tragedies from Mitrukhin is that he wanted to issue a warning about the kgb, but that warning didn't first of all get to the Russian people who he wanted it to reach, because the book wouldn't be published in Russian.

[Robert]

Makes sense.

[Gordon Carrera]

Which makes sense. And in the west, they were much more interested in things like Melita Norwood, this woman, or the Cambridge spies, or talk of arms dumps. They weren't really interested in the story he wanted to tell, which was how this powerful force of the KGB had oppressed Russia and the Russian people.

[Robert]

This was one of my big questions about his motivation, or just maybe said differently, what Matrokin thought was going to happen, because he's coming out with an archive of the First Chief Directorate's files, right. The foreign intelligence arm of the kgb. He's not presumably coming out with a lot of documents related to the second Chief Directorate, which is the internal security element of the organization. And I would think if the stories of the book, if he wants it to be Russia focused, it's almost by definition not going to be, because it's all about Russia spying overseas, recruiting people overseas. So it does feel to me somewhat predictable that the stories would not focus on the more repressive elements of the KGB internally that he wanted to shine a light on.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, he had collected some material about the repression of dissidents. And also, interestingly enough, the First Chief Directorate, the foreign arm of the kgb, was doing, was hunting down dissidents abroad or spying on defectors or even ballet dancers. They were talking about breaking the legs of Rudolf Nureyev, the ballet dancer, or spying on chess players because of the Soviet Union's kind of insecurity and also sending some of its deep cover illegals to do things like pose as Westerners in Czechoslovakia in 1968 during the Prague Spring, to try and understand and manipulate reformist movements in the Eastern bloc. So he's tried to focus on that, but that's not what this book is going to be about or what people are interested in this book. And I think it's one of the problems. And it's also coming out 1999. Of course, this is a moment when everyone thinks that the Cold War is over, it's long gone and it's just something from history and it's a kind of historical interest to people. But Matrokin almost uniquely, I think, understands that that's a mistake, that actually it's not just about history, but it's about something deeper and more persistent. And I think it's really interesting. And this is what I found as I looked at his life In Britain after 92, late 90s, early 2000s, he actually could see in a way that I think others couldn't, that something was happening in Russia that suggested that that enemy which he'd been fighting was still there. And I think we talked about him viewing this as a kind of beast, as a creature, as a three headed Hydra or dragon. And you know, one of those being the kgb. Now, of course, the KGB is technically gone at this time. It's turned into the domestic security service in Russia, the FSB and the Foreign Service, the svr. But in a sense, what Mitrokin sees is that the motivating ideology behind it has actually outlasted the end of the Soviet Union. And that motivating ideology in his mind is something called Chekism, which is, we should explain a bit about that. The Cheka was the name of the forerunner of the KGB or one of the forerunners of the kgb. It was the original security service created by Felix Dzerzhinsky after the 1917 revolution. And he sees Czechism as a force. And I think it's right, isn't it, that this idea of Czechism still persists in Russia today.

[Robert]

Well, there's Czechist Day, Gordon, in Russia. December 20th is the sort of celebration of the founding of the Cheka in I believe, 1917. And what is fascinating about the idea of a Cheka state is a couple of things. Number one, there are big speeches made at the intelligence services of the Russian Federation celebrating Felix Dzerzhinski's founding of the Cheka. Vladimir Putin participates in this. It's a big celebration, right? It is directly connecting the Russian security services of today to the sort of post czarist period. The contrast, I guess, couldn't be more different with like the Stasi in East Germany, which were disbanded. The archive was opened to the public for the most part, the parts that weren't shredded and Germany sort of had to come to terms with this highly repressive, invasive security apparatus that had repressed the people during the Cold War in the Soviet Union and then in now modern Russia, we actually have the continued celebration of that security service and an honoring of that lineage that goes back over 100 years. I mean, I think it's also really interesting. Like, if you look at the Soviet Union, you look at the way it sort of developed in the 70s and 80s, eventually the KGB became the most effective institution, the most coherent institution in the country, and it became kind of an intelligence state. The Soviet Union, by its deathbed, was an intelligence state effectively run by the kgb. And I think that's what it seems to me like that's what Matrokin is trying to. To kill. He wants to kill that Chekist thing and prevent it from continuing through the 90s. But if, of course, that doesn't happen.

[Gordon Carrera]

No. And crucially, he can see that in 1999. What's also happening as that book comes out is that a Chekist is becoming the head of the Russian state, is first going to become prime minister and then president. And that's Vladimir Putin. I mean, that is a man who came through the kgb, who is, if you like, a product of the KGB and. And of the Czechist ideology and who very much ascribes to it. You know, there's no such thing as a former Czechist. He'll joke himself. And so Mitrokin, I think it's fascinating at this time, can see that. And he writes about it, and he writes about how the nomenclature, which was the name of the Soviet elite, may have disappeared, but he talks about a new nomenclature appearing, which is the kind of oligarchs and businessmen, but also he is still seeing this Czechist ideology persist at a time when it's worth saying Western leaders, Tony Blair, George Bush are seeing Putin thinking that he's a man they can do business with. And Mitrochen is there going, I see a Chekist. I can see someone who represents that enemy. The suppression of truth, the suppression of people, the suppression of dissidents and free speech that I have been fighting against all my life and which I've been trying in my archive to warn the world about.

[Robert]

The line from Felix Dzerzhinsky that I think very much captures the spirit of Czechism, and that's always stuck with me, is in describing what the Cheka was doing, he wrote back in 1917, I believe we stand for organized terror and the idea that it is a repressive apparatus designed to control and designed to sow chaos abroad to weaken Russia's enemies. I mean, it's persisted up, up to today. And I mean, another angle here to the story, Gordon, that I just find fascinating and made me. I couldn't help but draw some parallels to this modern example of someone a bit like Matrokin was the Syrian military defector Caesar, who came out with 50 some thousand pictures of the sort of industrial scale repression in Assad's dungeons. And there's, I mean, there's definitely an immense amount of tragedy to Matrokin's story, but at the same time, he's very emblematic of these sorts of, I guess, defectors who end up bringing out real hard facts and data from inside an intelligence service. Because normally you think of intelligence services either boxing the stuff up forever or in the midst of a collapse, destroying most of the relevant material. And because he had copied it all in the 70s and 80s, like Caesar taking all these pictures of really victims of Assad's repression and torture, there's no way that the Russians could look at what Matrokin brought out and say it's false or fabricated. Right? Because he's actually just bringing out hard facts. So in some sense there's got to be victory for him in that, right?

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, he's brought out these hard facts and actually in some cases the KGB tried to destroy some of his files. And so the only copy that exists is the one that Mitrokin made and took out and which now lies in the West. And actually you can see almost all of the archives is now available to see at Churchill College, Cambridge. And you can go and see, it's in Russian. You can see the notes that he wrote from all those files. So they are there as a testament to him. And actually they were deposited by Vladimir, his son. So Mitrochen himself will die in 2004, but his son will outlast him for another 10 years. And his son is the one who will deposit those files with Churchill College and will do what he can to preserve his father's legacy and to make sure people understand what he did and the truth that he wanted to use as a weapon. But I do think there is this tragedy that he dealt a blow with his weapon to the KGB and to the Czechist ideology, but not a mortal one. It's persisted, it's still there. It's taken, I think, people years to recognize its persistence and to understand it and to fully appreciate it. Just a few years ago, they put up a new statue to Felix Dzerzhinsky at Yasenovo, the place where Mitrokin used to work, representing that continuity, I think, of the Czechist ideology, of the. Of the ideology that Mitrovin fought. So I think it is a tragedy ultimately that he. He wanted to warn the world about what he could see because he knew his enemy better, I think, than anyone, because he'd worked in the belly of the beast, as it were, in the Labianca and in the archives. And yet I think people weren't really able or willing to listen to what he was telling them.

[Robert]

So there. Gordon, the triumph and the tragedy of Vasily Matrokin will conclude our dive into the archive. And I'll of course mention here for my intrepid co host, that listeners who have enjoyed this should absolutely 100% here in a few days go out and get Gordon's wonderful new book that we've been talking about and drawing from. We'll have a link for folks to buy that book in the show notes. And I guess, Gordon, we'd also be remiss if we didn't mention that members of our declassified club can of course get early access to all of these series that we're doing. So please do join the club. You can go to therestisclassified.com and become a member right now.

[Gordon Carrera]

Thanks for listening.

[Robert]

We'll see you next time.

[Gordon Carrera]

See you next time.