51. Bin Laden vs the CIA: The Origins of Al-Qaeda (Ep 1)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Classified – Episode 51. Bin Laden vs the CIA: The Origins of Al-Qaeda

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Title: The Rest Is Classified
Episode: 51. Bin Laden vs the CIA: The Origins of Al-Qaeda
Release Date: June 1, 2025
Hosts: David McCloskey & Gordon Corera

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Introduction

In the premiere episode of their series on Osama bin Laden, former CIA analyst turned spy novelist David McCloskey and veteran security correspondent Gordon Corera delve deep into the origins of Al-Qaeda. They explore bin Laden's early life, his radicalization, and the intricate web of events that led to the formation of one of the most infamous terrorist organizations in modern history.

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Osama bin Laden: A Pivotal Figure in Modern History

Gordon Corera opens the discussion by emphasizing bin Laden's immense impact on global events. He underscores bin Laden's role in orchestrating the September 11 attacks, which resulted in 2,977 deaths—the deadliest terrorist act in American history ([04:01]).

Gordon Corera ([04:01]): "Osama was just like many of us who became part of the Muslim Brotherhood movement in Saudi Arabia... But more than that, there was also a harsh or radical side in his life."

David McCloskey concurs, highlighting how 9/11 fundamentally altered U.S. foreign policy and global security dynamics.

David McCloskey ([04:44]): "Without Osama bin Laden, we don't have 9/11. And without 9/11, we don't have wars in Afghanistan, in Iraq..."

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Early Life and Family Dynamics

Born in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, in March 1957, Osama bin Laden was the only son in his mother's marriage to Mohammed bin Laden, a prominent construction magnate allied with the Saudi royal family. The family practiced polygamy, resulting in Osama having over 50 half-siblings ([10:08]).

David McCloskey ([10:17]): "It's more than 12 wives. There might have been more."

Despite his affluent background, Osama grew up somewhat isolated within the large family structure. His father died in a plane crash when Osama was ten, leaving him without a direct father figure and deepening his sense of peripheral belonging ([10:47]).

Gordon Corera ([11:10]): "Yeah, he doesn't seem to have a particularly close relationship... He's kind of, you know, an asset to the family still."

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Education and Initial Radicalization

Osama's educational journey was typical for a Saudi of his stature, including a brief stint at a boarding school in Lebanon, which he left due to homesickness ([13:53]). His pivotal moment came during his teenage years at Al Tagger School in Jeddah, where he encountered influential Islamist figures connected to the Muslim Brotherhood ([15:07]).

Gordon Corera ([15:46]): "He's a very influential figure, isn't he, amongst lots of these people?"

Under the mentorship of a charismatic Syrian physical education teacher, Osama began embracing a more radical interpretation of Islam, engaging in additional prayers and fasting beyond the standard practices ([17:14]).

David McCloskey ([17:14]): "So Osama becomes a kind of committed, I would say, schoolyard Islamic activist."

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Involvement in the Afghan-Soviet War

The year 1979 was transformative for both the Islamic world and Osama bin Laden personally. Four major events shaped his trajectory:

1. Siege of the Grand Mosque in Mecca: A group of Islamic radicals took over the mosque, leading to a violent clash with Saudi authorities. Bin Laden's family's company aided the Saudi government in retaking the mosque, causing a private rift between Osama and the ruling family over the brutal response ([26:09]).

2. Muslim Brotherhood's Revolt in Syria: The Brotherhood intensified its efforts to overthrow the Syrian regime, influencing bin Laden's perception of political Islam ([28:31]).

3. Iranian Revolution: Although led by Shia influences, the success of a theocratic movement demonstrated the potential power of political Islam ([29:22]).

4. Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan: The USSR's decision to invade a Muslim-majority country galvanized bin Laden's commitment to jihad ([29:54]).

Gordon Corera ([29:35]): "That it's on the rise, it's a rising force, and even the Saudi state is trying to work out how to deal with that."

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Formation of Al-Qaeda

In response to the Soviet invasion, bin Laden began supporting the Afghan Mujahideen by raising funds and organizing aid through Pakistan. His collaboration with Abdullah Azzam, a Palestinian scholar and mentor, was pivotal. Azzam's 1984 fatwa calling for global jihad significantly influenced bin Laden's ideology ([34:00]).

David McCloskey ([34:34]): "In 1984, Azzam issues a fatwa, stating that Muslims around the world have an individual obligation to fight in the Afghan holy war."

By the late 1980s, with the Soviet forces withdrawing, bin Laden sought to formalize his efforts into a structured organization. Utilizing inheritance from his late brother and substantial family wealth, he established Al-Qaeda in 1988 ([50:27]).

Gordon Corera ([50:34]): "It's fair to say that 1979 was... a really hinge year in the Middle East and for Osama bin Laden personally."

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Clarifying the CIA-Bin Laden Myth

A significant portion of the episode addresses the misconception that the CIA had direct ties or provided support to bin Laden during the Afghan-Soviet war. The hosts clarify that while both aimed to repel Soviet forces, their operations were entirely separate.

David McCloskey ([43:01]): "There's no evidence whatsoever that Osama ever received support from the CIA or met an American intelligence officer, full stop."

The confusion often arises because both the CIA and bin Laden sought to counter the Soviet threat, but bin Laden's efforts were independently funded and organized.

David McCloskey ([43:55]): "We share the same objective, the end goal. But again, there's no evidence at all that Osama ever had any connection whatsoever to the CIA."

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Conclusion and Teaser for Future Episodes

The episode concludes with Al-Qaeda's nascent stages, highlighting bin Laden's strategic use of wealth and his ability to build a formidable network. The hosts hint at future discussions covering Al-Qaeda's evolution, the lead-up to the 9/11 attacks, and the subsequent hunt for bin Laden.

Gordon Corera ([53:06]): "We do know how the story ends, but trust me, the journey's great."

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Notable Quotes

• Gordon Corera ([02:30]): "Osama bin Laden is... one of the most consequential individuals in the last 50 years in world history."

• David McCloskey ([04:44]): "Without Osama bin Laden, we don't have 9/11. And without 9/11, we don't have wars in Afghanistan, in Iraq."

• David McCloskey ([43:01]): "There's no evidence whatsoever that Osama ever received support from the CIA or met an American intelligence officer, full stop."

• Gordon Corera ([53:06]): "We do know how the story ends, but trust me, the journey's great."

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Key Takeaways

• Osama bin Laden's Early Influences: Bin Laden's upbringing in a wealthy Saudi family and his early exposure to radical Islamist ideologies played a crucial role in shaping his future path.

• Impact of 1979 Events: The siege of the Grand Mosque, the Syrian revolt, the Iranian Revolution, and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan collectively radicalized bin Laden and set the stage for Al-Qaeda's formation.

• Al-Qaeda's Foundations: Utilizing family wealth and strategic mentorship from Abdullah Azzam, bin Laden established Al-Qaeda as a transnational jihadist organization aimed at promoting a radical interpretation of Islam.

• Debunking Myths: Despite popular belief, there is no concrete evidence linking the CIA directly to bin Laden's activities during the Afghan-Soviet war.

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Looking Ahead

Listeners can anticipate future episodes that will trace Al-Qaeda's growth through the 1990s, the lead-up to the September 11 attacks, and the extensive efforts to track down bin Laden. A special guest involved in the hunt for bin Laden will provide insider perspectives, offering a comprehensive understanding of this dark chapter in history.

David McCloskey ([53:35]): "We'll see you next time."

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Gordon Carrera]

Osama was just like many of us who became part of the Muslim Brotherhood movement in Saudi Arabia. The only difference which set him apart from me and others is he was more religious. More religious, more literal, more fundamentalist. For example, he would not listen to music. He would not shake hands with a woman, he would not smoke, he would not watch television unless it is news. He wouldn't play cards, he would not put a picture on his wall. But more than that, there was also a harsh or radical side in his life. I'm sure you have some people like that in your culture. For example, even though he comes from a rich family, he lives in a very simple house. He had no appreciation of art. He sees art as contrary to a Muslim. He lived a very simple, basic life. He doesn't attach himself to extravagant or good living. Well, welcome to the Rest is classified. I'm Gordon Carrera.

[David McCloskey]

And I'm David McCloskey.

[Gordon Carrera]

And that was Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who will later become known for meeting a sadly untimely end in a consulate in Turkey. But in this case, he is talking about Osama Bin Laden, whom he knew as a young man in Jeddah in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. And David, today we're starting a series looking at Osama bin Laden through the lens of the long struggle with your former employers, the CIA, to try and take him down. I guess it's a dramatic story. It spans many decades, many continents. But at its heart is really one individual who I think it's fair to say is one of the most consequential individuals, people in the last 50 years in world history.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, Gordon, as we were talking about the series, I think we were both reflecting that bin Laden probably is one of the most important people that has lived in the past half century. And it sounds hyperbolic, but then when you start to think about his impact on the world today, I'm not so sure it is. I mean, he is the mastermind of 9 11, 2,977 killed. I think the largest mass casualty event in American history. If you exclude things like natural disasters, the opioid epidemic, pandemics like the Spanish flu or Covid. I mean, 911 is the largest mass murder in American history. It was also, Gordon, the first major foreign attack against the continental U.S. since.

[Unnamed Contributor]

You and your Brits burned the White House in 1840. 14.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's right. And it punctured that sense of the American homeland being secure.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

And invulnerable. Suddenly it was vulnerable to a terrorist attack which literally came out of the clear blue skies and then in turn led to this decade or so of wars, of conflicts, you know, Afghanistan. But also there was a direct line into the Iraq War of 2003, into so many things that then happened there. And also the kind of waves of terrorism we saw in Britain and around Europe and in so many countries, they all really spring from this to a large extent. I mean, maybe not purely, but from this one man, Osama bin Laden.

[David McCloskey]

Without Osama bin Laden, we don't have 9 11.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And without 9 11, we don't have.

[David McCloskey]

Wars in Afghanistan, in Iraq.

[Unnamed Contributor]

We probably don't have military operations in.

[David McCloskey]

Places like Libya, Pakistan, Somalia, Syria, Yemen. I mean, the whole US military or.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Frankly allied military presence around the Middle east, some of which is still in existence today.

[David McCloskey]

Right. We're talking about an event that was almost 25 years ago and we're still dealing now with the sort of repercussions of that event. I mean, you could also just look at it in terms of the sort of human and economic cost. We're talking about a sort of set of choices that led to the expenditure.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Of potentially up to $8 trillion cost.

[David McCloskey]

7,000American lives in direct conflict, hundreds of thousands of others in conflict around the Islamic world. I mean, it's one of these turning points. It's really, I think, a hinge point in the history of the United States and, frankly, of the world.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. And it changes the kind of culture of societies in the sense of it spreads a kind of fear of terrorism which infects, I think, societies in very complicated ways. And it also distracts the US from the rise of China and other things, because there's a decade in which this kind of focus on terrorism and the long war that comes out of it shapes both American society and foreign policy in really profound ways. It's unusual, isn't it? You've got a kind of social movement and radicalization and a big conflict between jihadist groups and the West. And yet at the center of it is a person. And that person is quite responsible, in an unusual way, I think, for driving that bigger conflict. It's not just about the big forces. One person here did actually play a big role. And I think, you know, as we'll see in this story, there were moments when perhaps there were missed opportunities, when he could have been stopped or caught earlier or understood better, which might have changed the way things worked out. And I think that's one of the interesting things about this story, and to kind of chart it through from the beginning to the end is to really understand whether there were different possibilities as well along the way.

[David McCloskey]

Well, and he really is the founder, in many respects, or at least the popularizer of a really violent ideological enterprise.

[Unnamed Contributor]

That has franchised itself worldwide. I mean, if we rewind to the.

[David McCloskey]

Years before 9, 11, we have Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, let's say. And now when you look at it, there are franchises in Yemen, in Syria, in Iraq, in the Maghreb, in North Africa. There have been attacks in places from.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Mumbai to Paris, Nairobi, London, Bali, Aman, Jordan. He, in some respects, is kind of the.

[David McCloskey]

The energy behind an ideological movement that I think is not as powerful or as attractive as it might have been.

[Unnamed Contributor]

10 or 15 years ago, but is.

[David McCloskey]

Still very much legacy still there.

[Unnamed Contributor]

The legacy is still there, and it's affecting.

[David McCloskey]

I mean, even now in a place like Syria. Right, right. Inheritors of his ideas are affecting security and political outcomes in real time right now in our world.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. And he is a very interesting character from a very interesting family, and as we heard from that reading from Jamal Khashoggi, the journalist who knew him, a kind of complicated character. So should we start by going back to his personal background?

[David McCloskey]

Let's start, Gordon. Riyadh, 1957, with young Osama when he is born. And I think this is one of the things we're going to do throughout the series is really set this as Osama bin Laden versus the CIA. And I think to set it up.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Properly, though, we need to get a sense of. Of the man and his ideas and.

[David McCloskey]

Where he comes from, because so much of what he will do is a product, I think, of his life in Saudi Arabia and his family experience. Right.

[Unnamed Contributor]

I mean, as we'll see here, he.

[David McCloskey]

Does not come from a quote unquote, normal family. So he's born in March of 57 in Riyadh, but very soon thereafter, within.

[Unnamed Contributor]

A few months, his family moves to the Hejaz. It's a province kind of on the Saudi coast near the Red Sea.

[David McCloskey]

It contains the holy cities of Mecca and Medina. He is an only child of the.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Marriage between a woman named Ali Aghanim, who is Syrian. She's 15 when she marries Mohammed bin.

[David McCloskey]

Laden, who is Osama's father, who is a construction magnet who made his fortune.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Working as a royal contractor in the.

[David McCloskey]

50S and 60s for the outside, the ruling family of Saudi Arabia.

[Gordon Carrera]

And we should say that he's just not your normal contractor in the way we think of a contractor here or a building contractor.

[David McCloskey]

He's not driving a white van around filled with.

[Gordon Carrera]

No.

[David McCloskey]

No tools.

[Gordon Carrera]

No, that's right. This is someone who's building palaces, you know, huge complexes, mosques. And for the royal family, as Saudi Arabia is kind of building and expanding based on that oil wealth and who as a result, becomes incredibly rich himself and very close, I think, to the royal family.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, he's essentially the builder for the royal family. And the royal family in this period.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Is flush with petrodollars and building a lot in Saudi.

[David McCloskey]

But very quickly after Osama is born, the couple divorce and Osama's mother, Alia, remarries a guy who actually worked for.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Mohammad bin Laden in sort of an arranged marriage.

[David McCloskey]

And I think it's fair to say.

[Unnamed Contributor]

That Muhammad bin Laden, Osama's father, is a massive polygamist. Wouldn't you say, Gordon?

[Gordon Carrera]

How many wives? How many kids? It's crazy.

[David McCloskey]

It's more than 12 wives. There might have been more. And I think in Osama's generation, there's 54 brothers and sisters. There's 25 brothers and 29 sisters by.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Over a dozen wives.

[David McCloskey]

And we should say this isn't really.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Common at the time in Saudi.

[David McCloskey]

This sort of polygamy is probably on par with the ruling family, the outside themselves. But in any case, Osama's father dies.

[Unnamed Contributor]

In a plane crash in Saudi when Osama is 10. And Osama does have some experiences with his father. I mean, he doesn't grow up.

[David McCloskey]

He grows up in really kind of a separate household. Osama does, but he's integrated enough into, you know, the sort of world of his half brothers and half sisters. So he's in sort of his father's.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Orbit, but doesn't really know him very well.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, he doesn't seem to have a particularly close relationship. His father dies from these ten. As you said, he's the only child of this mother, so he doesn't have any kind of direct siblings, just lots of half siblings. So you already get a sense of someone who is in this very rich big family, but who also is kind of maybe just slightly on the edge of it, perhaps.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, I think he's peripheral throughout his.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Childhood, like integrated, but on the outside.

[David McCloskey]

Is what I would say. And interestingly enough, he's in a, I think, a bizarre psychological position because he's the connection to Muhammad bin Laden.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

And the way that Islamic inheritance law is, which is derived from passages in the Quran, it's very, very specific.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And it doesn't really allow you for a whole bunch of fluidity in. In sort of distributing an estate.

[David McCloskey]

So Osama bin laden, when he's 10.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Inherits 2.27% of the Mohammed bin Laden company's shares.

[David McCloskey]

And I should note for all you.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Listeners that Gordon, in the notes here.

[David McCloskey]

Has said he's not interested in the family's finances. But. And he's looking. He's looking very sour at me as I get into this here. But I think it's important to set up the fact that the estate maybe at this point is worth like $150 million. It's very hard to have accurate numbers.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And we should note, and this will.

[David McCloskey]

Be a theme throughout, Osama bin Laden.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Is rich, but he's not as rich.

[David McCloskey]

As you think he is.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right. Okay.

[Unnamed Contributor]

His wealth is going to be basically.

[David McCloskey]

Derived future cash flows from these building projects, shares of the company, shares of the company. So a lot of it is not like liquid, and it's very hard to get a sense of exactly what it's all worth. But regardless, he is the sugar baby.

[Unnamed Contributor]

For his family because he's the connection to this fortune. He's the connection in his household.

[Gordon Carrera]

Oh, because his mother is remarried, in.

[David McCloskey]

Other words, his mother's remarried. He grows up in a house with three stepbrothers and a stepsister, right. From his mother's union with this essentially business associate of Muhammad bin Laden. And bin Laden is the connection, right?

[Unnamed Contributor]

So he's kind of the reason why.

[David McCloskey]

This family is able to do well and has any money. Now, Osama is by all accounts, very close to his mother and all of.

[Unnamed Contributor]

The early accounts of his life.

[David McCloskey]

And here we should say that there's.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Some exceptional work that's been done on.

[David McCloskey]

The young Osama by Steve Cole and by Peter Bergen, who have written biographies of kind of the family and also Sama bin Laden himself.

[Unnamed Contributor]

All these early accounts emphasize his shyness.

[David McCloskey]

He's a very quiet kid, which kind of makes sense. You think about you're part of this massive brood of half brothers and sisters. You're sort of on the outs. I mean, he's not a very gregarious kid at primary school. He's solid, pretty unremarkable student, average grades.

[Unnamed Contributor]

We should note here that he's not.

[David McCloskey]

Going to like religious madrasas, right, or anything like that. He has a short stint at a boarding school in Lebanon, which is maybe.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Curtailed because he's homesick, kind of misses his mom.

[David McCloskey]

But his educational experiences are actually, they're.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Pretty normal for a Saudi kid of his generation. And when he is maybe in fifth or sixth grade. So about a year or so after.

[David McCloskey]

His father has died, Osama is sent.

[Unnamed Contributor]

To a very rigorous elite school in.

[David McCloskey]

Jeddah called Al Tagger, which translates as the Haven.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And it is a very impressionable time for him. His father has just died.

[David McCloskey]

He's probably on the threshold of puberty. He's increasingly aware that he's very unique, right? He's the source of his family's wealth and access, and yet he's really got no father figure. And he is going to find one at this school at the Haven. And Gordon, I will note that some.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Of his teachers at the Haven were.

[David McCloskey]

From Great Britain and no doubt featured.

[Unnamed Contributor]

In young Osama's radicalization, right?

[David McCloskey]

But the kids at the school, they wear Western uniforms.

[Unnamed Contributor]

They're wearing shirts and ties.

[David McCloskey]

We'll see in the pictures of him as he gets older. He's tall, right? He's tall as a kid. And around eighth or ninth grade, he.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Gets invited to join an Islamic study group at school.

[David McCloskey]

Now, it's very common for these groups.

[Unnamed Contributor]

In this era in Saudi to be taught by tutors that are really influenced by Islamist movements, like the Muslim Brotherhood.

[David McCloskey]

Which you had referenced in that quote up front. And this is essentially, you know, in.

[Unnamed Contributor]

The 60s and 70s.

[David McCloskey]

It's an Islamist organization, a kind of.

[Unnamed Contributor]

A transnational one that has chapters and.

[David McCloskey]

Branches all over the Islamic world with a mission to, how would I say, Islamize society through kind of religious law, moral values, preaching. But it's also combining it with a political activism.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Contributor]

That sees Islam as this all encompassing sort of ordering force, not only for.

[David McCloskey]

Your private life, but also for the politics of the Islamic world, which if you are a secular regime in Egypt or if you're the Al Saud in Saudi Arabia, it's pretty threatening.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. So this is the start of his kind of Islamicization and politicization and radicalization at this point around kind of 15, 16, through these kind of study groups and where he's done starting to find religion effectively.

[David McCloskey]

That's right. And, and the group is, is led by a Syrian. Thank you to Hafez Al Assad, because there's a Muslim Brotherhood chapter in Syria that's effectively been expelled and had to.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Go underground and is involved in sort.

[David McCloskey]

Of a violent uprising against the Syrian regime. And so a lot of these Muslim Brotherhood sort of sympathizers have left Syria. And there's a phys ed teacher who is sort of an athlete, an all around man's man, very charismatic, who is leading this Islamic study group at Osama's school. And you know, it's, it's very interesting because the value proposition for the kids.

[Unnamed Contributor]

In this group really isn't about Islamic study. It's that they get to play soccer.

[David McCloskey]

With this really cool guy who's older.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Than they are and seems to be.

[David McCloskey]

Probably a version of what they all want to grow up to be. But as the study goes on, there's less and less soccer, there's more and more Koranic memorization.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And the Syrian starts to tell stories.

[David McCloskey]

Including some stories about a young boy.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Whose father is preventing him from studying the Quran. And so in the story, the kid goes and actually shoots his father. And the Syrian phys Ed teacher basically.

[David McCloskey]

Says, you know, this is exactly the sort of thing that you should do.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

As a, as a good Muslim.

[Unnamed Contributor]

You look at Osama at this point.

[David McCloskey]

In his life, again, his actual father is gone. He's found this kind of father figure at this really formative, important point in his life. And this person happens to be an Islamic radical.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

And so Osama becomes a kind of committed, I would say, schoolyard Islamic activist.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And his behavior starts to change.

[David McCloskey]

So he begins to fast on, on.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Mondays and Thursdays, all day, as the Prophet had done.

[David McCloskey]

He begins to pray, not just five times per day, but starts to add.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Extra sets of prayers in the middle.

[David McCloskey]

Of the night like a very devoted Muslim.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And I think his family in this.

[David McCloskey]

Period, including the extended family, they kind.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Of look on this with some mixture.

[David McCloskey]

Of admiration, respect, but also, you know, it's, it's a bit exasperating.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, it's interesting because he doesn't have a lot of contact with the west, but he does make, it appears, one trip to Britain in the early 70s, you know, I was looking into it a little bit, and he goes when he's 14, so that's just before he goes through this radicalization phase. And he writes about it later in his notebooks and he kind of says, I had to go to Shakespeare's house a lot. Which is. Means he was going to Stratford on Avon. But I think he was, he was actually, it looks like spending time kind of doing language training around Oxford and around that area as 14. And he later describes himself as having found the whole place morally loose. But actually there are some people. Yeah, still, it still is, especially Oxford. But there has. But it's interesting, some of the people who knew him at the time in that early 70s, there seemed to be some people. And there's an amazing picture of him as a kind of 14 year old, actually looking like a kind of gangly teenager. And they remember someone who wasn't radical. One of the people who knew him then during this kind of brief, I think 10 weeks or something he spent in Britain, said that there was a sadness about him when he told how his brothers had different mothers and his mother was a kind of concubine. And so you get this sense that, you know, at age 14, that point where he's in Britain, he's actually a bit lost. And then, as you said, this period around 15 or 16, he finds his meaning in life when he goes onwards.

[David McCloskey]

That's exactly right. And we should also note that here at 15, he's not all of a sudden committed to the extremely violent kind of globalist version of jihad that he is going to eventually attach himself to. I think at this point it's a very, I hesitate to say private, because I think he is making sort of.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Claims on others, but. And their morality and how they should live their lives.

[David McCloskey]

But he's having this very private kind.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Of religious awakening, which is not necessarily unusual in a big family in Saudi.

[David McCloskey]

At this point in time. I mean, religion in Saudi Arabia in.

[Unnamed Contributor]

The 60s and 70s is kind of like baked into everyday life.

[David McCloskey]

The state is broadcasting TV for hours.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Every week showing pilgrims circling the Kaaba.

[David McCloskey]

In Mecca, the call to worship is everywhere. When it happens, businesses close. It's kind of.

[Unnamed Contributor]

You know, Steve Cole has this great.

[David McCloskey]

Line from his book about how religion in Saudi in this area was sort of like gravity. It's just there. And as you can imagine, though, Osama is a pretty shy kid. He's not got a lot of friends.

[Unnamed Contributor]

He's kind of lonely in this era. He does enjoy Westerns, though. Bruce Lee, the TV series Fury, about.

[David McCloskey]

A stallion on an American ranch. There will be a love of horses that. That continues throughout Osama's entire life.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And we should note, I mean, this.

[David McCloskey]

Will be another theme of his life.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Osama is a sexual creature.

[David McCloskey]

He seems to have sought out a very early marriage as an avenue to actually start having sanctioned sex. And so he has a marriage arranged to a Syrian cousin named Najwa when Najwa is 14 or maybe 15. And Osama will have his first son.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Abdullah, in 1976, when he is essentially.

[David McCloskey]

Graduating from high school.

[Gordon Carrera]

So when he's about 20 or so.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, exactly. And he'll go to King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah. And this is another theme I think.

[Unnamed Contributor]

We should mention that's important about Osama's.

[David McCloskey]

Early life, is he's familiar with the West. I mean, the trip to Great Britain is an example.

[Unnamed Contributor]

But he's not being radicalized by the West. There's not this journey into the West.

[David McCloskey]

And he sees the moral depravity of Shakespeare's homeland, and then he comes back and despises it and wants to destroy it.

[Gordon Carrera]

No.

[Unnamed Contributor]

You know, I don't even think he.

[David McCloskey]

Has a great understanding at this point.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Of the west, period.

[Gordon Carrera]

That's not the focus.

[David McCloskey]

That's not the focus. So what does begin to radicalize him, though, is that he is coming of age in an era of absolute turmoil.

[Unnamed Contributor]

In the Arab world.

[David McCloskey]

The creation of Israel in 48, the.

[Unnamed Contributor]

1967 war in which the Israelis defeated the Arab state definitively and exposed the.

[David McCloskey]

Failures of radicals like Nasser and the Baathists in Syria. And Israel massively expands its territory. It's this sort of deeply humiliating experience.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. Frustration and humiliation in the Arab world. And they're looking for an answer, and they're starting to find it in this period, aren't they? With a more kind of radical political Islam.

[Unnamed Contributor]

That's right.

[David McCloskey]

That's right. And Osama and many of the men who will lead Al Qaeda later are.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Going to be deeply influenced by those politics, but also by the writings and.

[David McCloskey]

Teachings of a man named Syed Qutb, who.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Who's an Islamist who is hanged in Cairo in 1966.

[David McCloskey]

And Osama probably is introduced to his.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Work at university in around 1976 or 1977 again as kind of part of.

[David McCloskey]

This coming of age religious experience that he is having. And Qutb argues essentially and he's written.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Extensively on all manner of topics so.

[David McCloskey]

I'm not quite doing him service here but essentially argues that Islamic is not.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Simply the observation of the faith.

[David McCloskey]

So prayers and fasting, the Hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca.

[Unnamed Contributor]

But there is inherent in Islam a political expression.

[David McCloskey]

And Qutb believed that most kind of.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Supposedly Muslim governments which could be Saudi.

[David McCloskey]

Could be in Egypt, could be in Syria were actually nothing of the sort. And that jihad struggle should not merely.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Be defensive but had to be waged.

[David McCloskey]

Offensively to reorder, potentially topple these apostate regimes.

[Gordon Carrera]

He's a very influential figure, isn't he, amongst lots of these people? I mean, he is kind of influenced by his hatred of the West. But you're right, he does develop this theory which is going to spread quite far and Osama bin Laden is going to be just one of the people, I guess, who's influenced by it.

[Unnamed Contributor]

But at this point Osama doesn't really.

[David McCloskey]

Have a practical way to put any of these beliefs into practice. Right.

[Gordon Carrera]

So they're in his head at the moment. They're in his head because he's just graduated university. I mean, he's not kind of involved politically in any way, is he? No, I mean he's in the family business.

[David McCloskey]

He's working in the business. He's working for the family construction company.

[Unnamed Contributor]

He's apparently by all accounts very hands.

[David McCloskey]

On driving the bulldozers himself. Working. He's a very hard worker, working all day.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And by the late 70s, Osama is probably earning around $200,000 a year from the business.

[David McCloskey]

So again, that is an allowance that would have exceeded that given to many.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Minor princes in Saudi.

[David McCloskey]

So he's very well off. But again, you'll see later all of.

[Unnamed Contributor]

These numbers get thrown around when he starts to become notorious that he's worth hundreds and hundreds of millions.

[David McCloskey]

He's wealthy, but he's not nearly as wealthy as you think. And maybe there, Gordon, with Osama bin Laden becoming a kind of rising man of the Mecca establishment, maybe we'll take a break and when we come back we'll see how Russian imperialism, Gordon, it all goes back to Russia and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan will send Osama.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Down the path of violence.

[Gordon Carrera]

See you after the break. Well, welcome back to the story of Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda and the CIA. And, David, it's fair to say that 1979 was a really important year across the Islamic world. And specifically for Osama bin Laden, it's.

[David McCloskey]

Also when you graduated from university, right, Gordon, so it was a big year for you. 1979 is a marquee year.

[Unnamed Contributor]

So, yes, it is, I think, a.

[David McCloskey]

Really hinge year in the Middle east and for Osama bin Laden personally. And it's really part of this process called the sawa, this awakening, right, this kind of stirring of the Islamic faith that has been bubbling up in much of the Arab and Islamic world decades prior to this. Right. As we alluded to before the break. But there are four big events in 1979 that I think each have a deep impact on Osama bin Laden and start to turn, I think, what had been a mental model of the world.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Into something that he actually thinks he.

[David McCloskey]

Can take out and do practical stuff with, right.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Which is a big leap for him. And the first one is in Saudi.

[David McCloskey]

And it's that Grand Mosque in Mecca is put under siege.

[Unnamed Contributor]

A group of Islamic radicals in Saudi.

[David McCloskey]

Take it over and essentially call for.

[Unnamed Contributor]

A political revolution in Saudi Arabia.

[David McCloskey]

Now, the bin Laden company had actually.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Helped with the renovations of that mosque, and so they assist the Saudi government.

[David McCloskey]

By like, showing them blueprints, helping them with tunnel access, giving them access to.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Equipment, bulldozers and the like.

[David McCloskey]

The Saudis, I think, with an assist.

[Unnamed Contributor]

From the French, actually end up retaking.

[David McCloskey]

The mosque in this sort of bloody fight. And I think for Osama bin Laden.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Personally, and this is a bit of.

[David McCloskey]

Speculation here on my part, but I.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Think it leads to perhaps one of.

[David McCloskey]

His first, albeit very private breaks with.

[Unnamed Contributor]

The ruling family, the outside, over the violent response.

[David McCloskey]

Because he kind of looks at this and I think believes that the Saudi regime has behaved badly by committing murder, essentially, of people who I think, you know, he believes at that point are. Are a little bit on the radical side. But, yeah, he's going to feel some amount of kinship with. With these forces who overtook the mosque. And so there's a private moment, I think, for bin Laden there.

[Unnamed Contributor]

But at the same time, and this.

[David McCloskey]

Is going to be critical to the decade to come in Afghanistan, the Saudi religious establishment is given much more of.

[Unnamed Contributor]

A free hand after this siege, in.

[David McCloskey]

Part because the outside, the ruling family, want to sort of demonstrate domestically that.

[Unnamed Contributor]

They are the custodians of these holy.

[David McCloskey]

Places, that they have religious legitimacy. And so there's a massive increase in sort of Saudi support Public and private, for Islamic charities that are going to export Saudi's brand of kind of Wahhabi Islam.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, we should explain that because this phrase Wahhabism, which is a particular interpretation of the Islamic faith, it feels like the Saudi royal family allow that to be exported increasingly around the world and will back its export partly as a way of keeping a more radical religious establishment on board with them. That's the kind of almost the deal they cut, isn't it? Is we'll give you free reign to go evangelize, you know, Islam size around the world to build mosques, to do things. But you give your support at home to us. And that's going to play an important role in the coming decades, isn't it?

[David McCloskey]

And a bunch of that cash is.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Going to end up in places like.

[David McCloskey]

Afghanistan and Pakistan, which will be critical to the formation of Osama bin Laden's life and career. So that's one is this siege of.

[Unnamed Contributor]

The Grand Mosque in Saudi and then.

[David McCloskey]

The subsequent funding or sort of increased support for these Wahhabi projects.

[Unnamed Contributor]

The second one is that in Syria.

[David McCloskey]

It all leads back to Syria, Gordon. The Muslim Brotherhood is going to begin a revolt that's going to go on.

[Unnamed Contributor]

For much of the next five or so years.

[David McCloskey]

So you have this kind of violent.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Brand of political Islam that is attempting.

[David McCloskey]

To overthrow what it would see as an apostate government in Syria. Three, we have the Iranian revolution. And even though that's led by what Osama probably would have seen as heretical Shia, it shows that a theocratic political movement could succeed.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. So different branch of Islam. But the point being the sense of political Islam being on the march is there, isn't it? That it's on the rise, It's a rising force, and even the Saudi state is trying to work out how to deal with that.

[David McCloskey]

And then finally, fourth, also in 79, the Soviet Union invades Afghanistan. And so I think from Osama's standpoint, it is infidels.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Non Muslims have invaded a Muslim country.

[David McCloskey]

And in fact, it's the first time.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Since the Second World War that a.

[David McCloskey]

Non Muslim country has invaded a Muslim one.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, it's another whole story about why the Soviet Union does that. I mean, it's nothing to do with. With Islam. No, it's to do with them fearing that somehow Afghanistan is falling into the American orbit and they have some kind of wild ideas about the Afghan leader. But it's one of those events where the reverberations of that single decision to invade Afghanistan are going to spill out in amazing ways. You know, it's going to lead to this insurgency, which is going to be one of the contributing factors to the end of the Soviet Union. But it is also going to create a generation of radical Islamists who go there to fight the Soviet Union because they see a Muslim country being invaded in their minds by the kind of Soviet atheistic communist power.

[David McCloskey]

This is exactly what Osama bin Laden starts to think.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Right. Pretty much immediately after the invasion.

[David McCloskey]

And this is an absolute turning point for him because all of these thoughts.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And beliefs that he had stored up.

[David McCloskey]

In his head all of a sudden have an outlet in Afghanistan.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Osama is gathering donations for the Afghans and he begins to travel to Pakistan to give the donations to organizations that help support resistance against the Soviets.

[David McCloskey]

And also, frankly, just a lot of.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Humanitarian relief and kind of charity work.

[David McCloskey]

Right. I mean, so I think in this kind of span of a few years, from 1980 to about 1983, Osama is essentially a bagman for money from Saudi Arabia, going to Pakistan to hold meetings, to organize a relief effort.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

It's not really militarized at this point.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And we should also note that this.

[David McCloskey]

Is, I think, from his family standpoint, the standpoint of a well established family in Saudi.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Osama is kind of an asset in.

[David McCloskey]

This, in this era because he begins to come into contact with senior Saudi.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Royals who are supporting the resistance against the Soviet Union.

[David McCloskey]

Osama becomes a kind of node for private Saudi support to the mujahideen who.

[Gordon Carrera]

Are the group fighting the Soviets.

[David McCloskey]

I mean, even at one point, one of Osama's older brothers has a vault built in Jeddah for Osama to manage.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Private gold and jewelry donations offered by wealthy Saudis. And apparently it's like 20 meters by 20 meters in size.

[David McCloskey]

So he's, he's becoming an important figure in this support for these kind of, you know, downtrodden Afghans who were under the Russian boot.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. Which is the great cause of the time, as you said, it's drawing in money. It's drawing in some people to fight as well, along with the local Afghan and Mujahideen resistance. You're starting to get others come to, if you like, join the jihad to go there and fight. And I guess that's what brings Osama bin Laden into contact with a new group of people who have a more violent intent rather than just charity work, if you like, or financial support for that jihad.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah. On these trips to Pakistan, he is going to be put in contact with.

[Unnamed Contributor]

A man named Abdullah Azzam, who's going.

[David McCloskey]

To become one of Osama's mentors. Now, Azzam's a Palestinian from Jenin, which.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Is occupied by the Israelis in 1967.

[David McCloskey]

So again, you can kind of see this. There's a personal. This isn't, you know, the idea of. Of Israel occupying Arab land is not something that's distant or conceptual to Osama. I mean, the guy who's going to mentor him literally grew up in a town that's being occupied by the Israelis. Azzam joins a group of fighters who.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Conduct raids into Israel, becomes the leader.

[David McCloskey]

Of the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan, and.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Critically, he has a doctorate in Islamic jurisprudence from Al Azhar in Cairo, which.

[David McCloskey]

Is essentially the Sunni Arab world's version of the Vatican. And so this is important.

[Gordon Carrera]

He's got status.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Contributor]

We should note for all of the different pronouncements that Osama bin Laden will make on the religious duties of Muslims to do X, Y or Z. He has no formal religious education.

[David McCloskey]

And in Abdullah Azzam, he finds a mentor who does and who has not just street cred, but actual, you know, he's got the piece of paper from Al Azhar to signify him as a.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Man of religious importance.

[David McCloskey]

Right.

[Unnamed Contributor]

So by 1980, Azzam is also teaching in Jeddah.

[David McCloskey]

He's becoming this kind of father figure in some ways to Osama. And you know, Azzam, it's also important to know him. He's 15 years older than Osama bin Laden. So by 1981, Zam has moved to Pakistan to get close to the jihad.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And he's collecting donations.

[David McCloskey]

He's this very charismatic, by all accounts, recruiter.

[Unnamed Contributor]

He stands up something called the services office to coordinate the work of Arab volunteers who are arriving to help. And Osama becomes a big donor and organizer of this services office.

[David McCloskey]

In 1984, Azzam issues a fatwa, which is a ruling on Islamic law, basically.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Stating that Muslims around the world have.

[David McCloskey]

An individual obligation to fight in the Afghan holy war, which, in Osama's mind, you're starting to see this very kind of step by step drift to a.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Man who's going to become committed to.

[David McCloskey]

His own particular brand of jihad. But Azzam and Osama in this period are kind of, let's say they're fanboys for each other.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

There's sort of a mutual respect and admiration.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Azzam is very much in the foreground, though.

[David McCloskey]

Osama in this period is kind of.

[Gordon Carrera]

The student, but probably quite useful given he's got the money and the contacts.

[David McCloskey]

That's right.

[Gordon Carrera]

He's able to funnel that money in. So you can see why it's useful as Azzam is kind of becoming the focal point for the link into Afghanistan. And it's not just money, isn't it? People are going out there to fight, but people are volunteering to go and get involved in the jihad rather than just give some money to it.

[David McCloskey]

That's right. And you know, interestingly, though, in those first four or so years of the war, Osama is doing all of this through Pakistan. He has not actually been inside Afghanistan itself. And that changes in 1984, when he goes inside at Azzam, sort of beck and call. I mean, Azzam thinks you need to go in and kind of see what's going on. And one of Azam's sons remembered that when Osama went in, he was very.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Frightened of the explosions, which I guess makes sense.

[David McCloskey]

He's not been in combat before. He's going into an actual war zone. And Osama is appalled by the terrible state of the Afghans and by his own account says that he felt ashamed that it had taken him that long to reach the front lines. So Osama, after that trip, he returns to Saudi, raises maybe $5 million from private donors, including collecting $2 million from one of his half sisters, and he starts to bankroll the services office at an even higher rate of about $300,000 per year. So we're getting this sort of drift.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Into this mix of kind of.

[David McCloskey]

He's still a big financial donor.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

But he's starting to maybe get this taste of the militant military aspect of.

[Unnamed Contributor]

The cause as well.

[Gordon Carrera]

And what is he. He's mid to late 20s now, so he's becoming. He's finding his place in the world, I guess, through this conflict. Yeah.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And he starts to think about getting married again.

[David McCloskey]

Gordon. Now, I will also note to our listeners that Gordon told me that he was not interested in talking about Osama bin Laden's polygamy, his many wives. But I am.

[Gordon Carrera]

And so tell me why I should care.

[David McCloskey]

We're gonna do it because I think it sets up an important piece of him. I mean, other than I like to talk about polygamy, which I guess is the real. The real reason here.

[Gordon Carrera]

Is there some reason for that?

[David McCloskey]

So he starts. But again, in the mid-80s, to your point, mid to late 20s, he starts to think about taking another wife. Now, his views on polygamy are rooted in the idea that this isn't just about fun and games, it's about solving.

[Unnamed Contributor]

A social problem, since apparently there are more women in the world than men.

[David McCloskey]

And I don't Know what numbers he was using to build that case? He believed that Islam sanctioned having four wives. They had to be treated fairly, but you can have four. His father obviously had many, many wives. Osama does not think that his father did this appropriately because his father, Muhammad bin Laden, was always divorcing the third and fourth wife to make room for more. He wasn't treating the wives fairly. I think Osama probably would have thought of his mother as being in that camp. I mean, essentially treated as a concubine by Mohammed bin Laden. And Osama raises this subject with his wife Najwa when she's pregnant with their fifth child, which seems like a bad time to bring it up, if I'm being honest. She, of course, does not love the idea initially, but he wears her down, says, you know, there'll be more children for Islam, and told her once, if.

[Unnamed Contributor]

You were contented in your heart for.

[David McCloskey]

Me to take a second wife, you will gain in heaven.

[Unnamed Contributor]

It is certain that your life will end in paradise.

[David McCloskey]

Which sounds like something a cult leader would say. And in 1983, he eventually does wear her down. Osama marries a woman named Khadijah, who's.

[Unnamed Contributor]

A very educated woman.

[David McCloskey]

She taught at a girls school in Jeddah. She's a direct descendant of the Prophet. Sama actually does buy a home in Jeddah in this era, kind of becoming the family man. He's, of course, not a whole lot of fun. And as you read in that quote.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Up front, he's not a big fan.

[David McCloskey]

Of pictures or anything that's particularly colorful. So his home is largely undecorated. There's no pictures. The carpet's cheap. It's kind of all in grayscale.

[Unnamed Contributor]

He apparently won't let family members turn.

[David McCloskey]

On the air conditioning and does not.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Believe that they should be using refrigeration.

[David McCloskey]

Which in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, is pretty tough. He also, in this period, enlists his first wife, Najwa, to find him a third wife, which she does. Osama marries her in 1985 and adds a fourth wife in 1987. The 80s were wild for Osama.

[Gordon Carrera]

I was gonna say, like, he's a busy man. As well as finding his fourth wife, he is also funding and starting a jihad in Afghanistan and getting involved in that. So it's a busy period for him. I think it's fair to say it is.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And by the mid-80s, I think he's starting to acquire something of a mystique.

[David McCloskey]

Right. He's six' four. He's very tall.

[Unnamed Contributor]

He is handsome.

[David McCloskey]

So if your mind is going to the later videos of Bin Laden. You know, that's not what he looks like in this era. And in fact, Muhammad bin Laden, his father obviously chose the wives for their physical beauty and youth and things like that. So basically all of the Bin Laden children, I would say are quite attractive or handsome.

[Gordon Carrera]

But you could also see he is kind of this charismatic figure, isn't he? He comes from this family. He's the, to some extent the outlier of the family who's suddenly taken on this great cause. You can see why he is somehow building up a reputation in Saudi society as this quite charismatic, interesting figure at this point.

[David McCloskey]

And he's becoming more assertive. So by 1986 he's moved to Peshawar, Pakistan so he can oversee the services office and be really close to the action.

[Unnamed Contributor]

He starts giving speeches in mosque, he's lecturing on Palestine, which is long and.

[David McCloskey]

A sort of private obsession for him. It starts to become public and I think under his mentor Abdullah Azzam's tutelage, Osama in this period of the late.

[Unnamed Contributor]

80S is starting to become a proponent.

[David McCloskey]

Of a much more transnational version of the Jihad.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, and I guess the point we should make here is that most of the fighting being done by the Mujahideen against the Soviet occupation is done by Afghans. But there are these Arab volunteers, they've come over from across the the Islamic world, Saudi Arabia included. I mean, some of them are there almost for jihadi holiday, aren't they? Yeah, you know, you read it and there are people who come from well off families in Saudi or elsewhere. They basically want to fire a gun and go back home and tell people, hey, I've been in the jihad in Afghanistan, I fired a gun at the Soviets. That was to some extent the reputation of the, the Arabs who were going over there to fight in the 80s. It wasn't always as being the, the best fighters, but to some extent almost like tourists.

[David McCloskey]

Jihadi camp counselors was another quote I came across. They were called the Afghan Arabs, these small groups of Arabs fighting the jihad in Afghanistan. One Algerian recruit remembered the volunteers as.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Men whose minds were, quote, full of Sylvester Stallone and visions of paradise.

[David McCloskey]

There's a bit of a, I think the vibes, right. I mean it was kind of cool to go do this and it was very much sanctioned by friends and family back home.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Critically important to the story to come.

[David McCloskey]

Because it's going to form the backbone of so much of what will become Al Qaeda.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, it's a different ideology. It's not the same Motivation. But it is a bit like the people who flocked to the Spanish Civil War from the left in the 30s. You know, there's a kind of international brigade sense of it, of people who want to fight and who Osama bin Laden, I guess, is now organizing. Now here we get to a key question, I think, and maybe the point at which the CIA should come into the picture, because the CIA was at this time funding and backing the Mujahideen, wasn't it, against the Soviet Union? This was this huge covert operation that the CIA was undertaking, funneling weapons and money, famously Stinger missiles, anti aircraft missiles, through Pakistan into the groups fighting the Soviet Union. Really important and significant campaign. And so the question has always been, what was the relationship between the CIA and Osama bin Laden as part of that?

[David McCloskey]

Yeah. And it's a very simple answer, which is there's no evidence whatsoever that Osama.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Ever received support from the CIA or met an American intelligence officer, full stop.

[David McCloskey]

I think the idea that Osama is.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Somehow a creation in some part of.

[David McCloskey]

The CIA springs from I think, maybe two misunderstandings about the way the CIA supported the Afghans. Right. The first one is the CIA was routing everything through Pakistan.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Really?

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

And the Pakistanis were trying to bleed the Soviets. These Afghan Arabs were having basically no battlefield impact whatsoever and would not have been chosen by the Pakistanis to receive funding.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Funding or weapons.

[David McCloskey]

And the other piece though, which I think leads to misunderstanding, is there is a reality that what Osama bin Laden wanted, which was to push the Russians out of Afghanistan, is exactly what the CIA wanted too.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, they're on the same side.

[Unnamed Contributor]

We're on the same side. We share the same objective, the end goal. But again, there's no evidence at all that Osama ever had any connection whatsoever to the CIA or received any funding or support.

[David McCloskey]

But I think here in the late 80s, Gordon, is when Osama starts to think about being more directly involved in the conflict. Because I think up until this point he's been really running a more kind of bureaucratic, logistical piece of the support through the services office. And I think the movement is really focused on other people's martyrdom, other people fighting.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

And this is where we see, I think, the first bit of conflict really.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Or maybe a difference of opinion between.

[David McCloskey]

Osama and his mentor Abdullah Azzam, because Azzam does not think that these Afghan Arabs should really be fighting directly.

[Unnamed Contributor]

He really thinks the Arabs should be.

[David McCloskey]

In a support role for the Mujahideen, helping to funnel really money and logistical.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Support in so that the Afghans can fight.

[David McCloskey]

Now Osama though, he wants a militia, right? And it's kind of insane because there.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Are hundreds of thousands of Afghans fighting and there's maybe a few hundred Arab fighters. It's not going to make any battlefield impact.

[David McCloskey]

And I think maybe that's some of the point here for Osama because he is starting to think of this as.

[Unnamed Contributor]

A holy war for him.

[David McCloskey]

And as part of that, he or the men around him might be sacrificed. So he wants weapons and he'll go.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And actually ask his elder half brother.

[David McCloskey]

If he can help collect weapons and send weapons to Osama's group in Afghanistan.

[Unnamed Contributor]

You know, he's probably inspired by seeing some of those CIA supplied stingers actually.

[David McCloskey]

Have an effect on the battlefield. His brother seems to have tried to help but wasn't able to actually get missiles.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And this gives you a sense of.

[David McCloskey]

Osama at this point is not some pariah either from Saudi or his family. He's kind of, you know, an asset.

[Unnamed Contributor]

To the family still.

[David McCloskey]

So the family helps him get light weapons, ammunition. They actually bring in construction equipment like bulldozers and loaders. And Osama sets up an area in the eastern mountains of Afghanistan near a.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Place called Jaji to build a new base. It overlooks Soviet positions. Some of bin Laden and his men call the place the lion's den.

[David McCloskey]

And it is a bit of a.

[Unnamed Contributor]

I guess maybe jihadist man cave. And there is seemingly zero military logic.

[David McCloskey]

To building this area up.

[Unnamed Contributor]

The Afghans had not set up a.

[David McCloskey]

Base there because it's blocked in by snow and ice in the winter, it's very difficult to resupply.

[Unnamed Contributor]

They're also, they being the Afghans are.

[David McCloskey]

Running a kind of guerrilla style hit and run campaign that's not so reliant.

[Unnamed Contributor]

On just kind of sitting in forts.

[David McCloskey]

But Osama does not really listen to this, doesn't care.

[Unnamed Contributor]

It feeds some sense in my head.

[David McCloskey]

That maybe martyrdom for him or some of his men was the point of this base.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And he and 16 Saudis live in tents and freezing conditions as they build it in.

[David McCloskey]

Osama calls it one of the most.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Beautiful periods of his life.

[Gordon Carrera]

It's a sense in which he's building his brand as well through this, isn't it? I mean, I think that's one of the feelings I get about Osama bin Laden at this time. Is he, he's someone who does understand the value of public relations and the image of himself as someone who is creating a militia and who is willing to die and who is the person who's come from this rich family and is willing to fight. And, you know, he's now building up this base. And as you said, no, not necessarily with any military value, but a kind.

[David McCloskey]

Of PR value that is going to.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Be a theme throughout this story, which.

[David McCloskey]

Is that I think Osama bin Laden is quite good at PR and quite good at marketing himself and also a.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Terrible military planner and leader.

[David McCloskey]

And we'll tell one story here on that front, which is, of course, as Osama and his Afghan Arabs build up.

[Unnamed Contributor]

That base, the Soviets take notice. And there's a battle in the spring.

[David McCloskey]

Of 1987 with three weeks of attacks and counter attacks back and forth.

[Unnamed Contributor]

It's apparently quite brutal at times.

[David McCloskey]

The Russians shell the area for a while, advance with tanks and air support.

[Unnamed Contributor]

They drop napalm, apparently to clear the forested area around the base.

[David McCloskey]

Osama, during the battle, is quite sick, but he does not rest or withdraw.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And there is a key moment in the battle when a Soviet plane is downed on the 27th day of Ramadan.

[David McCloskey]

Which Osama would have undoubtedly sort of seen this as a divine sign, because.

[Unnamed Contributor]

The 27th day of Ramadan is a sacred moment in the Muslim calendar, and it's called the Night of Power, which.

[David McCloskey]

Is the day when the gates of.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Heaven are supposedly open.

[David McCloskey]

And so I think in his mind, he's. He's kind of styling his image, his.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Brand, his vibes off of the prophet. Right. He is fighting an infidel army. He's commanding an Arab army in battle. The fighting is intense.

[David McCloskey]

It has absolutely no impact on the broader war. Thirteen of his Arabs die, but they don't retreat. And this battle at Jaji becomes part of Osama bin Laden's myth. Right.

[Unnamed Contributor]

It's a big marketing opportunity for him.

[David McCloskey]

So he brings in afterward an Egyptian.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Filmmaker to follow him and his men around, and this kind of legend begins to form.

[David McCloskey]

Right. So he's.

[Unnamed Contributor]

He's a rich guy who's living in.

[David McCloskey]

This war zone, sort of like a pauper, right?

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Very well connected.

[Gordon Carrera]

He sacrificed for the Jihad, sacrificing everything.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And he's a fighter, Right.

[David McCloskey]

Which I think was part of the cred that he didn't have before that battle. And those exploits help raise a lot of money in.

[Unnamed Contributor]

In the Gulf.

[David McCloskey]

And so Osama, I think, becomes sort.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Of infamous in this era.

[David McCloskey]

Now, by 1987 and 1988, the Soviets have announced that this war isn't going so well and they're going to be withdrawing soon from Afghanistan.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. And so for Hassan bin Laden, I guess this is the next pivotal Point, isn't it? Because here he is, he's a war hero. He's got the money, he's got the background, he's got the personal story, he's got the brand. He's also got the ideology. He clearly does believe in this kind of jihadist ideology. So the question is, with Afghanistan winding down, what's he going to do? Where does he take that? This jihad might be over, but he doesn't want to go back into Saudi society and just live a normal life, kind of go into the family business, do you? After you've done that and after you've built that.

[David McCloskey]

That's exactly right.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And so in the summer of 88.

[David McCloskey]

I think he begins to create an organization in a series of meetings that are held with some of his friends.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And followers in Peshawar in Pakistan.

[David McCloskey]

And they write down a. What I would argue is a very.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Loose mission statement or vision statement, which.

[David McCloskey]

Is this organization will, quote, lift the.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Word of God to make his religion victorious.

[David McCloskey]

And they do list out a run of membership requirements.

[Unnamed Contributor]

There's an oath of allegiance to God.

[David McCloskey]

Not to Osama bin Laden. At this point, and really at this stage, I don't think Osama knows yet what he wants this organization practically to do.

[Unnamed Contributor]

But he does see it as a.

[David McCloskey]

Means to incite and inspire jihad around the Islamic world. And from a founder standpoint, he's in.

[Unnamed Contributor]

A very interesting position because he does have some startup capital of sorts, because.

[David McCloskey]

In 1988, his eldest half brother, who.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Had been kind of running the family, has also died in a plane crash.

[David McCloskey]

On American soil, no less.

[Unnamed Contributor]

There's going to be a plane theme in this story.

[David McCloskey]

I mean, his father dies in a crash, his brother dies in a crashing. And by 89, the families knew. Amir Leader, another half brother, has overseen.

[Unnamed Contributor]

A distribution of the estate's assets under Islamic law. And the members of the family could.

[David McCloskey]

Choose either cash disbursements or they could reinvest some of it in shares in the family's companies. And Osama chooses both. So he takes off the table about $8 million in cash, and then he also owns shares in some of the.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Family'S new partnerships, which are probably worth around $10 million.

[David McCloskey]

But it's not liquid.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Right?

[Gordon Carrera]

I mean, that's a lot of money in those.

[David McCloskey]

It's a lot of money.

[Unnamed Contributor]

He gets 18 million dol around there all at once.

[Gordon Carrera]

So he's got the funding to back the vision, basically.

[David McCloskey]

That's right. So he's wealthy to kind of capitalize this new venture, but not insanely so. And when they set this group up.

[Unnamed Contributor]

What do they call it?

[David McCloskey]

Well, when they had run these kind of camps in Afghanistan in the mid late 80s, they had nicknamed them Al Qaeda, the base in Arabic.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And the name of that organization, Al.

[David McCloskey]

Qaeda, is going to stick.

[Gordon Carrera]

And so maybe there, David, let's stop this time with Al Qaeda formed with bin Laden with all this money behind him and a kind of ragtag group. And next time we'll look at how he takes that ragtag group and turns it into an organization which is going to carry out the most deadly terrorist attack in American history.

[David McCloskey]

But, Gordon, we should say that. You don't have to wait, people.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Okay, so right now, if you want to get access to the rest of.

[David McCloskey]

This series, which is going to cover.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Bin laden in the 90s and the run up to 9 11, it's going.

[David McCloskey]

To cover the 911 attacks themselves, the hunt for bin Laden, and go in.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Detail on the raid and feature Gordon.

[David McCloskey]

A conversation with a very interesting special.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Guest intimately involved in the hunt for bin Laden. If you want all of that right.

[David McCloskey]

Now, if you are not the kind of person who likes to sort of.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Push the tension out and you need.

[David McCloskey]

It right now, go and join the Declassified [e-mail] and you can listen to the entire series. Binge it at this very moment.

[Gordon Carrera]

We do know how the story ends, but trust me, the journey's great.

[David McCloskey]

That's right.

[Gordon Carrera]

So if you want to hear that. All right, now, then do join the club. But otherwise, we will see you next time.

[David McCloskey]

We'll see you next time.