56. Bin Laden vs the CIA: Death in Pakistan (Ep 6)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Classified - Episode 56: "Bin Laden vs the CIA: Death in Pakistan"

Release Date: June 16, 2025
Hosts: David McClarsky & Gordon Carrera

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1. Introduction and Context

In this gripping episode, hosts David McClarsky and Gordon Carrera delve into the intricate and high-stakes operation that culminated in the death of Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad, Pakistan. They explore the lengthy manhunt, Bin Laden's life in hiding, and the meticulous planning that led to the successful raid by US forces.

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2. Background on Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda

The episode begins by contextualizing Osama bin Laden's role as the founder and leader of Al Qaeda. McClarsky references Peter Bergen's biography, highlighting Bin Laden's efforts to project himself as the "elder statesman of Jihad" (05:00). Despite his aging and attempts to rebrand Al Qaeda, Bin Laden remained a central figure in orchestrating terrorist activities until his demise.

Notable Quote:

David McClarsky [03:06]: "And bin Laden has his books on the shelf now. He also has a book, Gordon, Shopping for Bombs by one G. Carrera."

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3. Life in Abbottabad: Bin Laden's Hideout

After escaping Tora Bora in 2001, Bin Laden settled in Peshawar, Pakistan, before moving to Abbottabad in August 2005. Abbottabad, often referred to as the "Switzerland of Pakistan" for its serene environment, became his long-term hideout. Here, Bin Laden lived with his extended family and loyal bodyguards, under the protection of Abu Ahmed Al Kuwaiti.

Key Points:

• Bin Laden's household consisted of three wives, twelve children, and several grandchildren (09:04).
• He maintained a low profile, rarely leaving the compound, and immersed himself in reading and media consumption (10:03).
• The compound was meticulously constructed to provide security and concealment from external threats.

Notable Quote:

Gordon Carrera [08:53]: "He ends up with three wives there, 12 children and grandchildren..."

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4. Planning the CIA and JSOC Raid

By 2011, the CIA had revitalized its global surveillance and human intelligence networks, crucial in tracking Bin Laden's movements. The raid, named Operation Neptune Spear, was a collaborative effort between the CIA and the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC), specifically involving Navy SEALs.

Key Points:

• The operation was meticulously planned to minimize collateral damage and deny Pakistan any acknowledgment (20:24).
• Admiral McRaven, a seasoned Texan and JSOC commander, led the mission from a makeshift command center in Afghanistan (29:27).
• The team utilized advanced drone surveillance and had rehearsed extensively with mock compounds to prepare for contingencies (23:24).

Notable Quote:

Gordon Carrera [21:23]: "It's a proper cliffhanger."

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5. The Night of the Raid: Execution and Challenges

On the night of May 1, 2011, under a moonless sky, 23 Navy SEALs embarked on the raid. The helicopters encountered unexpected turbulence due to the compound's architecture, leading to a controlled crash landing.

Key Events:

• The SEALs faced technical difficulties as rotor wash from the Blackhawk helicopters destabilized them against the compound walls (32:32).
• Initial attempts to surprise Bin Laden were thwarted when his family became aware of the intrusion (35:35).
• A firefight ensued, resulting in the deaths of Bin Laden's bodyguards and a direct confrontation with Bin Laden himself (36:11).

Notable Quote:

David McClarsky [34:51]: "We will now be amending the mission. My men are prepared for this contingency and they will deal with it."

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6. Confirmation of Bin Laden's Death and Aftermath

Post-raid, the team prioritized confirming Bin Laden's identity through forensic analysis. Despite initial uncertainties, DNA testing at Bagram Air Base conclusively verified his identity.

Key Points:

• The White House swiftly moved to announce the successful operation, eliciting widespread public and international reactions (47:14).
• Bin Laden was given a burial at sea to prevent his gravesite from becoming a shrine (51:18).
• The operation marked a significant milestone in the global fight against terrorism, yet it also highlighted the enduring challenges posed by decentralized terrorist networks.

Notable Quote:

Gordon Carrera [47:31]: "Another historical moment where everything seems so decisive and final."

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7. Legacy and Impact of the Operation

The successful raid had profound implications for global security and the operational dynamics of terrorist organizations. McClarsky and Carrera reflect on the "forever wars" initiated post-9/11, the human and economic costs, and the strategic shifts in US counterterrorism efforts.

Key Points:

• The episode underscores the extensive toll of ongoing conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Pakistan, with millions displaced and significant loss of life (53:15).
• It discusses the evolution of US intelligence and special operations capabilities, emphasizing lessons learned from past missions like the failed raid in Iran (22:50).
• The hosts contemplate the enduring influence of Bin Laden's legacy, particularly in fostering lone-wolf attacks and perpetuating extremist ideologies (57:45).

Notable Quote:

Unknown Speaker [58:07]: "The lasting shadow of Bin Laden's actions continues to shape global conflicts and security policies."

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8. Personal Reflections and Behind-the-Scenes Insights

Towards the episode's conclusion, the hosts share personal anecdotes and reflections on the emotional and psychological weight carried by those involved in the operation. They also tease an exclusive interview with a former CIA counterterrorism analyst who was instrumental in the hunt for Bin Laden, offering listeners deeper insights into the complexities of intelligence work.

Notable Quote:

David McClarsky [60:57]: "He's going to tell Gordon everything he got wrong in the series so far and make a great scorecard out of it."

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Conclusion

Episode 56 of The Rest Is Classified provides a comprehensive and nuanced exploration of the decades-long pursuit of Osama bin Laden. Through detailed narratives, expert analysis, and firsthand accounts, McClarsky and Carrera illuminate the strategic intricacies and human dimensions of this pivotal chapter in modern history.

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For listeners seeking exclusive content, bonus episodes, and in-depth interviews, subscribing to the Declassified Club at therealDisclassified.com is highly recommended.

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Note: All timestamps refer to the podcast's transcript as provided.

Transcript

[Gordon Carrera]

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[David McClarsky]

Listening, early access to series first look.

[Gordon Carrera]

At live show tickets, a weekly newsletter and discounted books. Join the Declassified [e-mail] you're deep into.

[Unknown]

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What is dadication?

The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariana. We call him Day Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job.

That's dedication. Find out [e-mail] brought to you by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council. He hunches force staining the blades of Lance's red. May God not let my eye stray from the most eminent humans should they fall, as the stallion bears my witness that I hold them back. My stabbing is like the cinders of fire that explode into flame. Well, welcome to the Rest is Classified. I'm Gordon Carrera.

[David McClarsky]

And I'm David McClarsky.

[Unknown]

And that, unfortunately, is the poetic verse of none other than Osama bin Laden. Thank you, David, for making me read that wonderful bit of poetry, Revenge for Snowden.

[David McClarsky]

It's definitely revenge for Snowden. I also, I mean, I could have.

[Gordon Carrera]

Used poetry in every episode of this series.

[David McClarsky]

So this is admirable restraint on my.

[Gordon Carrera]

Part to only include it in the last episode. So you. You actually. Your thanks are, are accepted. You are very welcome.

[Unknown]

Very good. But, but like many megalomaniacs, Osama bin Laden fancied himself A poet. I mean, lots of people who think they're great men or whatever think they're poets.

[David McClarsky]

And yeah, the Iranian Supreme Leader is a poet.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[David McClarsky]

So we've got. Got all kinds.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So that. That's bin Laden and I think. I'm not sure I'd give that much more than a C minus his poetry, most of it seems pretty full of cliche.

[David McClarsky]

The iambic pentameter was.

[Unknown]

Yeah, maybe it was my reading. But you can sense that what he's trying to do there, I don't think very successfully is have a kind of cosmic sweep celebrating violence and death and martyrdom and glory in this struggle to defeat his enemies and talk about lances and things like that, back to some kind of medieval power play of the Islamic world against the West. I guess that's what he's trying to talk about in that poetry and on the rest is classified. In this final episode of the series on the hunt for Osama bin Laden, we are going to talk about the final end for that murderous poet. So, David, last time we left it on the manhunt, finally locating bin Laden at this compound, slightly mysterious compound in Abbottabad in Pakistan.

[David McClarsky]

We left it as a cliffhanger, though.

[Gordon Carrera]

A little bit, Gordon, a little bit. Nobody is quite sure who is there.

[David McClarsky]

So listeners, we'll have to get to.

[Gordon Carrera]

The end of this episode to figure.

[David McClarsky]

Out if Osama bin Laden is actually in that compound. It's a proper cliffhanger.

[Unknown]

It's a proper cliffhanger. But maybe we should say a little bit about him because we focused a lot on the CIA hunt for him. But what about him and what he's been up to in those years? I mean, he's been on the run, but also still trying to run al Qaeda, hasn't he?

[David McClarsky]

I guess we could say he's certainly.

[Gordon Carrera]

Been on the run.

[David McClarsky]

He's also, I guess, in a bit.

[Gordon Carrera]

Of a retirement phase in some respects.

[David McClarsky]

Because basically after Tora Bora, which is.

[Gordon Carrera]

Really the last time we saw him.

[David McClarsky]

In the story, he, al Qaeda, even his immediate family are essentially just scattered to the four winds, right? And by the middle of 2002, and I should say that much of what we have come to know about sort.

[Gordon Carrera]

Of this decade, this post 911 decade.

[David McClarsky]

For Osama bin Laden, is due to some exceptional work by the journalist Peter Bergen, who's written a biography of Osama bin Laden.

[Gordon Carrera]

And then there's been a bunch of.

[David McClarsky]

Work done on a lot of the documents that were exploited following the raid. So by mid-2002, Osama bin Laden is in Peshawar in Pakistan, which is actually.

[Gordon Carrera]

The city where he founded Al Qaeda back in 1988.

[David McClarsky]

And he's shaved off his beard in this period, which is sort of hard.

[Gordon Carrera]

To picture Osama bin Laden without a beard. He and Amal, his youngest wife, for.

[David McClarsky]

Those listeners following with which wives are still with Osama and how many of his four capacity is he carrying at.

[Gordon Carrera]

Any point in time? He has a mall with him. Who is the Yemeni teenage bride? They are ferried by van into the.

[David McClarsky]

North of Pakistan where they settle in a house. It's actually a very lovely spot. It's in Swat, Pakistan, Gordon, which is apparently known as the Switzerland of Pakistan.

[Unknown]

Beautiful valleys.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, A very kind of green, mountainous, lush area, lots of rivers and lakes. So he settles there for a little while. He and Amal conceive their second child there. They live under the protection of that Kuwaiti courier, Abu Ahmed Al Kuwaiti, this kind of courier slash bodyguard, who has been so Central to the CIA's manhunt. And the Kuwaiti's brother is also there. And it's here in Swat that Osama bin Laden is going to issue some of his first public statements since Tora Bora. He'll meet with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, one.

[David McClarsky]

Of the 911 masterminds, and then listeners will remember that in 2003, Khalid Sheikh.

[Gordon Carrera]

Mohammed is arrested and this prompts bin Laden to move. So he's going to move to another.

[David McClarsky]

City an hour outside of Islamabad.

[Gordon Carrera]

He's going to live there with two of his wives. Amal has two more children. He basically, this is a period where.

[David McClarsky]

He'S starting to not really see anybody.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right? There's going to be no visitors because once KSM is arrested, can't live there.

[David McClarsky]

Anymore because that knowledge would be in KSM's brain. So by 2004, Osama's videos, I think.

[Gordon Carrera]

Are getting a little bit less militant. Gordon, you go look at these.

[David McClarsky]

Gone are sort of the camo and.

[Gordon Carrera]

The fatigues and the propped up AK47. He's kind of sitting behind a desk.

[David McClarsky]

He's dressed in gold robes like he's.

[Gordon Carrera]

At a Saudi wedding. His beard is starting to go white, very embarrassingly.

[David McClarsky]

And Peter Bergen notes, I think quite aptly, he says bin Laden in this period starts to try to project an.

[Gordon Carrera]

Image as the elder statesman of Jihad.

[David McClarsky]

So kind of the senior leader, the.

[Gordon Carrera]

Founder and CEO, the executive chairman of.

[David McClarsky]

This now quite sprawling organization with franchises all over the world. And this, in 2004 is actually the.

[Gordon Carrera]

First time that bin Laden takes explicit responsibility for 9 11.

[David McClarsky]

And in what I think is a.

[Gordon Carrera]

Shameful taunt, even by the standards of the horrible, shameful things that he's done, he actually taunts Bush on the video for continuing to read a story about a pet goat to the kids at.

[David McClarsky]

That elementary school in Florida when he gets knowledge of the 911 attacks. So there's kind of a weird personal thing there.

[Gordon Carrera]

And it is starting in 2004, 2005.

[David McClarsky]

That Abu Ahmed, the courier slash bodyguard starts to acquire parcels of land in.

[Gordon Carrera]

A Pakistani city called Abbottabad.

[David McClarsky]

So that compound land starts to get built up to the specifications of Abu Ahmed. And In August of 2005, Osama, two.

[Gordon Carrera]

Of his wives, six of his children.

[David McClarsky]

The two bodyguards and their families all move into the compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan.

[Unknown]

So this kind of strange, as you put it, it's a kind of half retirement home, half layer where he's trying to still run operations, but also he's got his family there. He's trying to keep a low profile, but also trying to still have contacts with the outside world. It's a strange life, isn't it? And he' there for, what's that? August 2005, you know, for years, years.

[Gordon Carrera]

And years and years, he doesn't leave.

[David McClarsky]

I mean, so he goes in, in August 2005, doesn't leave.

[Unknown]

Do you think he never actually ever leaves that compound in five years? I mean that's extraordinary if that's the case, isn't it? In terms of isolation?

[David McClarsky]

It is. I mean the kids were not leaving. I mean we talked in the last.

[Gordon Carrera]

Episode about so many of those bizarre and very difficult behaviors to sustain over time.

[David McClarsky]

And I don't think he did, I think he, he stayed inside. I mean he's there, another wife joins him. So he ends up with three wives there, 12 children. Now he's also got grandchildren there, bizarrely enough, because he had married off one.

[Gordon Carrera]

Of his daughters to an Al Qaeda fighter in Afghanistan when his daughter was 12. She had died in childbirth in 2007, her husband, so it would have been.

[David McClarsky]

His son in law, Osama Bin Laden.

[Gordon Carrera]

Son laws later killed in a CIA drone strike. So there's four orphaned children from that.

[David McClarsky]

Marriage who end up going to Abbottabad to live in the compound with their.

[Gordon Carrera]

Grandpa, Osama Bin Laden.

[David McClarsky]

So he's got the three wives, 12 children and grandchildren, the two bodyguards, their.

[Gordon Carrera]

Wives and seven children. There's 27 people in total living in that compound.

[David McClarsky]

And Bin Laden is spending, it seems.

[Gordon Carrera]

A lot of his time reading or listening to nonfiction.

[David McClarsky]

And so in the you know, materials exclusive. After the raid, they had Bob Woodward's Obama's wars was, was on his shelf.

[Gordon Carrera]

He was listening to the audio version of Peter Bergen's book the Osama bin.

[David McClarsky]

Laden I know, an oral history of Al Qaeda's leader which we've also used on this podcast.

[Unknown]

That is weird. If you are listening to an audiobook about the Osama bin Laden I know and your Osama bin Laden and you're listening to an oral history of people who've met you over the years talking about you. I mean, that's, that's, that is.

[David McClarsky]

Tell me you're a narcissist without telling me you're a narcissist. Yeah, right.

[Unknown]

That is, yeah, that is kind of weird.

[David McClarsky]

He obviously is taking an intense interest.

[Gordon Carrera]

In himself and what the Western writers think about him and how he's being.

[David McClarsky]

Reflected in the States, which is back.

[Unknown]

To his sense of personal brand and his kind of projection of himself is this great figure in history, isn't it?

[David McClarsky]

That's right.

[Gordon Carrera]

Which you also get from the poetry that you so lovely read, you know.

[David McClarsky]

At the beginning of this podcast. Now he also has Listeners will remember.

[Gordon Carrera]

The head of Alex station at the CIA, the bin Laden hunting unit in.

[David McClarsky]

The mid-90s, Mike Scheuer. Salman bin Laden had a bunch of Shawyer's books on the shelf because Shawyer had taken a bit of a turn.

[Gordon Carrera]

In the mid 2000s and was writing books very critical of US foreign policy in the CIA.

[David McClarsky]

And bin Laden has his books on the shelf now. He also has a book, Gordon Shopping for Bombs by one G. Carrera. See the first, the first name that was also also on the shelf in Abbottabad, we never plug our books, but.

[Unknown]

That one is about Pakistan and the role of Pakistani intelligence in or alleged role in nuclear weapons proliferation. So you might find it kind of interesting.

[David McClarsky]

I don't know how he got the signed copy. Gordon, there it was on the shelf.

[Unknown]

Anyway, anyway, so this is the Weird world of Osama bin Laden.

[David McClarsky]

So he's reading, he's reading.

[Gordon Carrera]

He's listening to audiobooks.

[David McClarsky]

He's got an upstairs bedroom or the ceiling.

[Gordon Carrera]

Now remember, bin Laden's a tall guy.

[David McClarsky]

He's like 6 foot 4. He can barely stand in this room.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right. He's kind of crouched over.

[David McClarsky]

He's got a study where he writes.

[Gordon Carrera]

Letters off to Al Qaeda lieutenants and to family members. He is definitely a news junkie. As he's aging, he's becoming a stereotypical.

[David McClarsky]

Kind of old man who's watching the news and probably you know, getting irate as he sees various headlines.

[Gordon Carrera]

He is also, we say retirement, which.

[David McClarsky]

Is kind of true, but he's a micromanager.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right. And he is really trying to retain as much control as possible over al Qaeda in these years, which admittedly would.

[David McClarsky]

Be very challenging, Gordon, because it has franchised.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right.

[David McClarsky]

Globally in kind of the post 911 decade. I mean, there's a branch in Iraq which is extremely violent and bloodthirsty in.

[Gordon Carrera]

These years and has a leader who.

[David McClarsky]

I think is not really following the.

[Gordon Carrera]

Osama bin Laden playbook.

[Unknown]

Yeah, exactly. There was some tension, I think, between Zarqawi and the others and al Qaeda leadership. You always would hear about this. Yeah. So there was lots of these affiliates, aren't there, which are all under different elements of control, aren't they? And how far they're actually controlled by the center. So he's trying to control them, I guess, but not always successfully through his.

[David McClarsky]

Messages, I would say largely unsuccessfully, to be quite honest. I mean, there's a branch in Yemen, there's a branch in North Africa. And you recall back to the early.

[Gordon Carrera]

Episodes of the series talking about his involvement in the family business.

[David McClarsky]

I mean, bin Laden was kind of.

[Gordon Carrera]

A micromanager when it came to business.

[David McClarsky]

Administration when it wasn't jihad. And there's a great letter that was captured after the raid where bin Laden is advising Al Qaeda in the Arabian.

[Gordon Carrera]

Peninsula, the branch in Yemen, that they.

[David McClarsky]

Should make sure to eat well before.

[Gordon Carrera]

Taking long road trips so they could make fewer stops along the way and presumably be less vulnerable to security.

[David McClarsky]

So he's.

[Gordon Carrera]

He's in the weeds, Gordon.

[David McClarsky]

Yeah, let's say this.

[Unknown]

Weird, isn't it? Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

Now, he's also.

[David McClarsky]

He's very active kind of in the media.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right. So he releases more than two dozen video and audio tapes in the decade after 9 11.

[David McClarsky]

He's actually got a makeshift television studio.

[Gordon Carrera]

At the house in Abbottabad.

[David McClarsky]

Peter Bergen has this great line in his book. He says when Osama flubbed his lines.

[Gordon Carrera]

He chuckled and wrapped his knuckles on.

[David McClarsky]

A desk to signal that he wanted to do a retake, which is also what we do on the Rest is classified here.

[Unknown]

I was going to say these days you'd have a podcast rather than a studio, but.

[David McClarsky]

Yeah, that's right.

[Gordon Carrera]

And by 2010, he is considering a rebrand of the Al Qaeda organization. Can't imagine why.

[David McClarsky]

I think the shocking amount of, you.

[Gordon Carrera]

Know, ordinary civilians killed has worked against.

[David McClarsky]

It, let's say, Gordon. And I think bin Laden is starting to understand that toward the last few years of his life.

[Gordon Carrera]

He's actually thinking about planning a public declaration that would emphasize the, quote, friendliness.

[David McClarsky]

Of Al Qaeda in order to regain.

[Gordon Carrera]

The trust, the trust of the Muslim public.

[David McClarsky]

So by the time of the Arab Spring in 2011, I think this is an interesting kind of commentary on just how in some ways irrelevant he has become.

[Gordon Carrera]

Although I don't want to overstate that.

[David McClarsky]

Because I do think that especially in.

[Gordon Carrera]

A lot of the materials gathered after.

[David McClarsky]

The raid, it was clear that he.

[Gordon Carrera]

Was actively involved in attack planning up until the very end.

[David McClarsky]

And Al Qaeda, central as an organization.

[Gordon Carrera]

Was still very much attempting to conduct mass casualty attacks in the US and across the West. So we shouldn't undersell it too much.

[David McClarsky]

But it's interesting that how irrelevant he had become by the time you get to the Arab Spring, where he's basically watching from the sidelines, as, you know.

[Gordon Carrera]

The Egyptian regime totters, the Tunisian regime Tatars, the Libyan regime, the Syrian regime, the Yemeni regime.

[David McClarsky]

I mean, the. He's kind of Al Qaeda's present in.

[Gordon Carrera]

Those conflicts, but it's not the driving.

[David McClarsky]

Force behind any of the kind of.

[Gordon Carrera]

Upheaval shaking the Arab world that year.

[Unknown]

Yeah, and of course, that had been one of his motivations. If you go back to where he started in the 90s, it was about removing the kind of Arab dictatorships which he said were oppressing Muslim people and preventing the radical Islam he believed in. And he'd always made the case, hadn't he, that, you know, you need the kind of terroristic violence of Al Qaeda to do that. And suddenly some of these regimes are being challenged and even toppled by, by people power, by, if you like, more democratic, less, you know, violent forces than those that he espoused. So it is quite challenging to the whole Al Qaeda kind of philosophy that this was the means of achieving change, I think, at that moment. So again, it is that sense in which he's a man out of time, his time has passed a little bit.

[Gordon Carrera]

Well, I think maybe there's an understanding on his part or maybe an anxiety.

[David McClarsky]

That that is actually happening in his.

[Gordon Carrera]

Kind of old age.

[David McClarsky]

He's holding regular kind of family meetings at that compound in Abbottabad, almost a kind of bin Laden family kitchen cabinet.

[Gordon Carrera]

Where he's trying to hone his message for these videos and these audio tapes that he's going to release. A couple of his wives are quite educated. One of them actually has a PhD in Koranic grammar. And he does seem to rely on.

[David McClarsky]

Them for advice in this period and value their. Their opinion on kind of Al Qaeda's messaging and branding. I mentioned the spectacular attacks earlier. I should have said one of them is he is kind of interested, I think, in assassinating senior members of the American administration. And so he at one point is.

[Gordon Carrera]

Advising Al Qaeda deputies that they might.

[David McClarsky]

Consider killing President Obama or potentially David Petraeus. He very wildly says, you know, don't.

[Gordon Carrera]

Even bother trying to kill Vice President Biden.

[David McClarsky]

Bin Laden apparently thought Biden was totally.

[Gordon Carrera]

Unprepared for the presidency, and so he.

[David McClarsky]

Wasn'T a worthwhile target. But By April of 2011, as President Obama, as CIA Director Leon Panetta, kind of the Obama administration are debating this raid to go after and kill Osama bin Laden. Bin Laden and his family, that kitchen.

[Gordon Carrera]

Cabinet, are thinking about releasing a major.

[David McClarsky]

Statement amid this kind of Arab Spring.

[Gordon Carrera]

This tumult in the Arab world.

[David McClarsky]

Now, he's also, at this point in the spring of 2011, kind of running out of leash with those bodyguards, Abu Ahmed and his brother, because they're fed up with this. Yeah.

[Unknown]

And you think about unsurprising years with him and his many, many children.

[David McClarsky]

They're basically indentured servants to Osama bin Laden.

[Gordon Carrera]

They're taking massive risks. He's apparently paying them $100 a month.

[Unknown]

Gordon, which does not seem very much.

[Gordon Carrera]

Not compensating them for the risks.

[Unknown]

For the risks.

[David McClarsky]

Right.

[Unknown]

That's for sure.

[Gordon Carrera]

And the property at Abbottabad is in their name, and they want out. And so in the spring of 2011.

[David McClarsky]

Now, obviously at this point in time, the Obama administration is not aware of any of this, but the raid actually does come at a fortuitous moment because Osama bin Laden is trying to figure.

[Gordon Carrera]

Out where he might go next and.

[David McClarsky]

Who will protect him if Abu Ahmed and his brother toss him out.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right.

[David McClarsky]

And bin Laden is, at this point.

[Gordon Carrera]

He'S got three wives under one roof.

[David McClarsky]

He's got a bunch of kids, he's got the four grandkids. He's apparently drinking Avena, which is a.

[Gordon Carrera]

Syrup made from oats, which is supposed.

[David McClarsky]

To produce Viagra like Effects. He's eating olives as an aphrodisiac. He's dyeing his beard, Gordon, just for men.

[Unknown]

He's taking something from Viagra like Effects and something else from Aphrodisiac and dyeing his beard. I mean, this guy, he still thinks he's a bit of a player. Does he? I mean, he's just bizarre.

[David McClarsky]

We said in the first episode, Gordon, that I think Osama bin Laden is.

[Gordon Carrera]

A very sexual creature.

[David McClarsky]

Okay. And we gotta understand him that way and he doesn't want to just kind of pack that up.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right.

[David McClarsky]

I mean, he's got his wives with him there. And on the night of the 1st of May 2011, the night is moonless and Osama bin Laden is, I guess, in a kind of semi retirement.

[Gordon Carrera]

He's on the cusp of being evicted from this compound.

[David McClarsky]

He's got his family all around him. And on that night when he lies.

[Gordon Carrera]

Down to bed at long, long last.

[David McClarsky]

Gordon, the CIA and the Americans are finally coming for him.

[Unknown]

Yeah. After a long, long wait. What he doesn't know is that President Obama, as we'd kind of seen last time, was going to give the order, wasn't he, for what was called Operation Neptune Spear. I mean that is a good title for this.

[David McClarsky]

It's a good name. It's a solid.

[Gordon Carrera]

Solid marks for that one.

[Unknown]

Yeah, solid marks for that one. We've had some stinkers on, the rest is classified. But I think we give that one that. We give that one the good marks and they're going to go for it. And they've opted, as we heard last time, not to bomb the place. The risk of collateral damage and not knowing whether you got him was too high with that. But instead going for the raid using a mix of special forces, but under CIA kind of direction or leadership. It's quite an unusual mix. The way this mission is structured. I mean that. Is that something normal the way it's. Way it's organized?

[Gordon Carrera]

So in this case, when the CIA.

[David McClarsky]

Started to think up options and present them to the President, it seems like it became clear to Panetta right away.

[Gordon Carrera]

That it would make sense to use.

[David McClarsky]

Jsoc, the Joint Special Operations Command, use.

[Gordon Carrera]

Forces under its control to actually conduct the raid.

[David McClarsky]

But because the raid is happening in Pakistan, you want to be able to deny it. Right.

[Gordon Carrera]

And you want that to happen under.

[David McClarsky]

CIA, I guess, covert action authorities. So the, the arrangement that they come up with is to. It's called sheep diploma. The, the seals, the chain of command is running from the President to Leon Panetta at the CIA and then to.

[Gordon Carrera]

JSOC and the SEALs and JSOC, which.

[Unknown]

Says the Joint Special Operations Command.

[David McClarsky]

Yeah, it's probably worth a word on the capabilities that are going to be.

[Gordon Carrera]

Brought to bear on Osama bin Laden.

[David McClarsky]

That compound via jsoc primarily because listeners.

[Gordon Carrera]

To this series will note, I mean, as we lay this out, the incredible.

[David McClarsky]

Evolution of the United States ability to.

[Gordon Carrera]

Just sort of go and find someone and reach out and touch them anywhere.

[David McClarsky]

In the world between the late 90s when the CIA and Washington are wringing.

[Gordon Carrera]

Their hands about, what do we do.

[David McClarsky]

About Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan, let's say, you know, in a sanctuary, how.

[Gordon Carrera]

Do we really get to him?

[David McClarsky]

We're using those feckless tribal militia, the.

[Gordon Carrera]

TROD Pints, we're lobbying cruise missiles, ineffectively.

[David McClarsky]

We need six hours of advance notice of where he's going to be if we're going to find him. But by 2011, JSOC, I mean, it's really the result of a generation of.

[Gordon Carrera]

US Military adaptation that goes back to the failed desert. One mission to rescue American hostages in Iran, which ended in disaster, ended in.

[David McClarsky]

A helicopter crash in the desert, probably.

[Gordon Carrera]

Contributed to Jimmy Carter losing reelection. And since that point in time, and JSOC has become this kind of fusion.

[David McClarsky]

Of elite operator capabilities. So Delta Force, the SEALs, the 75th.

[Gordon Carrera]

Ranger Regiment, the Night Stalkers, which is the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiments, basically some of the best helicopter pilots in the world.

[David McClarsky]

All of these different units are loosely fused together underneath this JSOC kind of umbrella.

[Gordon Carrera]

And cooperation between the CIA and JSOC.

[David McClarsky]

Has deepened really substantially, even just in.

[Gordon Carrera]

The few years leading up to 2011. And so, as we said, Panetta had.

[David McClarsky]

Basically said, look, if the President wants to go for the ground option, JSOC.

[Gordon Carrera]

Should really take the lead.

[David McClarsky]

And so basically, what it has come down to is by 2011, is that human spy networks across Pakistan and Afghanistan have been rebuilt and strengthened. The CIA, the NSA have this platform of global surveillance, which is aided by.

[Gordon Carrera]

Control of the telecommunications infrastructure.

[David McClarsky]

There's a massive fleet by 2011 of both surveillance drones and weaponized drones. I mean, by 2010, the drone fleet's.

[Gordon Carrera]

In the thousands with the ability to watch dozens of locations in real time, all the time.

[David McClarsky]

And you have these really elite kind.

[Gordon Carrera]

Of operator units, many underneath jsoc, that have in a decade, almost of experience.

[David McClarsky]

Conducting exactly these kinds of raids almost every night in places in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Unknown]

I mean, I remember that in Iraq. I mean, they got into this cycle, didn't they? The special operations forces, where it would be hit a target, gather intelligence from them, send it up, have it analyzed somewhere, mix it with other types of intelligence, then go hit the next target the next day and just kind of a real fast cycle of doing these raids, using intelligence and kind of moving forward. But this is different, isn't it? I mean, they've built this capability, but there's never going to be no kind of pressure on a single raid as there's going to be on this one in, in 2011. So let's maybe stop there, take a break and afterwards we'll come back and we'll see how that raid on Osama bin Laden goes down. Well, welcome back. It is the start of May 2011. Sunday, the first cloud cover in Pakistan has delayed a mission. But now, David, it's on, isn't it?

[Gordon Carrera]

It is on because it is going.

[David McClarsky]

To be a largely moonless night, but with just enough light so the night.

[Gordon Carrera]

Vision goggles will work for the folks flying the helicopters and for the operators on the ground.

[David McClarsky]

So it is Sunday, the 1st of May, 2011.

[Gordon Carrera]

Now, we should say that we should.

[David McClarsky]

Back up because on Saturday, Gordon, the president and basically everyone involved in these.

[Gordon Carrera]

Mickey Mouse meetings to plan the raid have to attend the White House Correspondents.

[Unknown]

Dinner, which is a big thing in Washington. I find it a bit bizarre. No, I've never been.

[David McClarsky]

Okay.

[Unknown]

I find it's a bit of a bizarre loving for the kind of president and the American media. I think it looks a bit odd on the outside. But this is a particularly famous one, isn't it? Because it's the one where Donald Trump is in the audience.

[Gordon Carrera]

He's there.

[David McClarsky]

Yeah, the Donald's there and he's been.

[Unknown]

Kind of going on about President Obama's birth certificate and he's not really an American, not a legitimate president. And Obama kind of makes fun of it and ribs. Donald Trump, one of the theories, isn't it, is that this is the moment where Donald Trump, because he's made fun of at the dinner, goes, screw you, I'm going to become president of the United States and show you. So this is possibly one of the most consequential weekends in American history because you've both got perhaps the moment that spurs Donald Trump to run for president because he's made fun of at this dinner. And you've got the raid on Osama bin Laden about to happen a kind of few hours afterwards and you've got half the participants in this one room. I mean, you couldn't make it up, could you?

[David McClarsky]

I guess President Obama is at the nexus of both of those things, right? So he is quite the weekend. He goads President Trump into running and.

[Gordon Carrera]

Eventually serving eight years as president and.

[David McClarsky]

He kills Osama bin Laden or I shouldn't give that away yet, should I? We're not there. So listeners will be shocked. Now, another reason the correspondence to know those interesting, Gordon, is that Seth Meyers, American comedian, he cracks a joke about bin Laden and he says, quote, everyone.

[Gordon Carrera]

Thinks he's been hiding in The Hindu Kush. But he really hosts a C span show from 4 to 5pm and it gets some good laughs. And you zoom in on Panetta and.

[David McClarsky]

Obama and I think they play it pretty cool. You know, they kind of laugh right along with it.

[Gordon Carrera]

But in their minds, of course, you.

[David McClarsky]

Got to be wondering. They're like, good grief, this guy.

[Unknown]

If only he knew. Yeah. If like two days later you wonder if they're texting Seth Mars going, ah.

[David McClarsky]

You know, I'm sure they were. Now the ABC News anchor gets wind.

[Gordon Carrera]

Of something going on at the White House.

[David McClarsky]

Because the White House, they give tours.

[Gordon Carrera]

Of the West Wing and the situation.

[David McClarsky]

Room and a Sunday would be a pretty good day to do that, but they'd closed it.

[Gordon Carrera]

They'd closed the West Wing to tours the next day. And this ABC journalist calls the White.

[David McClarsky]

House chief of staff and he says.

[Gordon Carrera]

Do you guys have something big going on over there?

[David McClarsky]

The chief of staff says, it's a plumbing issue. So we, we've shut the place down. Journalist seems to buy it. So they get through the correspondence dinner and the next morning is Sunday, the first of May in D.C. time the raid is, is going to be starting now. It is 10:30pm in Jalalabad, Afghanistan. Two very oddly shaped Stealth Blackhawk helicopters are taking off and heading for the Pakistani border.

[Gordon Carrera]

On the choppers are 23 seals in full kit.

[David McClarsky]

There's a Pashto interpreter in case locals.

[Gordon Carrera]

Will have to be addressed.

[David McClarsky]

There's a dog named Cairo for sniffing.

[Gordon Carrera]

Explosives and hunting for safe rooms.

[David McClarsky]

Because we should also mention that although.

[Gordon Carrera]

The the SEALs have practiced extensively on mock ups of the compound, no one knows what it looks like inside. Right.

[David McClarsky]

So there could be panic rooms. We don't really know Admiral McRaven who is going to be the JSOC commander for the mission. He's in Jalalabad. He's not actually in the helicopters. He is a gigantic Texan.

[Gordon Carrera]

I appreciate having a Texan involved in the story.

[David McClarsky]

Love it when a Texan makes an appearance on the show. Gordon, very good. He's got a deep baritone voice.

[Gordon Carrera]

He is son's cowboy hat.

[David McClarsky]

But he is basically all of our.

[Gordon Carrera]

British listeners will recognize him as exactly what they think a Texan should sound like. I would say he is, he is.

[David McClarsky]

The par for the course sort of Texan par excellence.

[Gordon Carrera]

He's running the raid from this kind.

[David McClarsky]

Of makeshift command center which is basically a glorified closet where he can communicate.

[Gordon Carrera]

Simultaneously with the SEALs and CIA headquarters. McRaven's wearing a headset so he can.

[David McClarsky]

Narrate what's happening now.

[Gordon Carrera]

The helicopters are followed by an RQ170 stealth drone, which is flying miles above them and transmitting live video back to McRaven and his team. Now, half an hour after the Blackhawks.

[David McClarsky]

Had departed Jalalabad, three Chinook helicopters take.

[Gordon Carrera]

Off from the same airfield. One Chinook is loaded with seals.

[David McClarsky]

It's going to land just before it reaches the Pakistani border and it's going.

[Gordon Carrera]

To act as kind of a quick reaction force because of course, there's the possibility hanging over all of this that there could be a legitimate firefight with the Pakistanis.

[Unknown]

So they're there to go in if you need reinforcements, basically.

[David McClarsky]

Exactly. The other two Chinooks are filled with.

[Gordon Carrera]

Seals and additional fuel for the Blackhawks.

[David McClarsky]

They fly into Pakistan to a pretty.

[Gordon Carrera]

Desolate region 50 miles or so northeast.

[David McClarsky]

Of Abbottabad, again as a kind of backup force. Now, the Chinooks are a lot easier.

[Gordon Carrera]

To see on the radar, and so the Blackhawks are in the lead.

[David McClarsky]

Should the Chinooks be detected, there is kind of a winding hour and a half flight that is designed to avoid.

[Gordon Carrera]

Urban areas and radar.

[David McClarsky]

So of course they're not, you know, flying in a straight line.

[Gordon Carrera]

And when the Blackhawks come around the.

[David McClarsky]

Mountains into Abbottabad, there's going to be a couple minutes when the helicopters might.

[Gordon Carrera]

Be detected by radar and where residents of the town and the surrounding areas might be able to hear the rotors from the helicopters.

[David McClarsky]

Now, at the White House, the Obama team can follow the raid in the.

[Gordon Carrera]

White House, the situation room.

[David McClarsky]

Right. But they can, they can only see.

[Gordon Carrera]

The drone video feed in one of the neighboring kind of cramped anterooms.

[David McClarsky]

And by the way, I'll note that.

[Gordon Carrera]

The White House situation room, that whole.

[David McClarsky]

Kind of complex underneath the West Wing.

[Gordon Carrera]

Is very, very cramped.

[David McClarsky]

The ceilings are not tall, the rooms are not particularly large, and there are a lot of little half size conference rooms off of the main sit room.

[Gordon Carrera]

That listeners might recognize from.

[David McClarsky]

From films, Right?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[David McClarsky]

And so that famous picture, yeah, of the team kind of watching very intensely is from one of these little side rooms. And because the side room has the video, the principals, you know, Obama and Biden and everybody begin to drift into that room.

[Gordon Carrera]

Now, it's a moonless night.

[David McClarsky]

The power is out in Abbottabad, and two minutes out from the compound, the side door of the first Blackhawk opens.

[Gordon Carrera]

Some of the seals start to swing.

[David McClarsky]

Their feet out of the helicopter and.

[Gordon Carrera]

Get their fast ropes ready.

[David McClarsky]

Now, the plan apparently was for one of the Blackhawks to hover over the compound, over what they thought was Osama.

[Gordon Carrera]

Bin Laden's third floor bedroom. They would then fast rope onto the roof of the bedroom and surprise him.

[David McClarsky]

Which you figured that makes a lot of sense because you don't have to.

[Gordon Carrera]

Deal with, well, what is the layout.

[David McClarsky]

Of the ground floor and how do.

[Gordon Carrera]

We get up and who's down there?

[David McClarsky]

You just, you know, he's in that.

[Gordon Carrera]

Bedroom and you just get right to him.

[David McClarsky]

Now that doesn't happen. The rehearsals in the States had taken.

[Gordon Carrera]

Place with chain link fencing standing in for the high concrete walls around the compound.

[David McClarsky]

And that fencing had allowed the helicopter's rotor wash to kind of dissipate.

[Gordon Carrera]

But the concrete walls at the actual.

[David McClarsky]

Abbottabad compound amplified it and it caused a phenomenon known as settling with power. And basically there's a situation where the helicopter gets stuck in the kind of.

[Gordon Carrera]

The downwash from its own rotors.

[Unknown]

Sounds like a mini tornado or something.

[David McClarsky]

Yeah, right. And so the Blackhawk begins to just kind of drop out of the sky. We mentioned this Night Stalker aviation regiment, these helo pilots. I mean, a lot of the words after this were describing it as like a crash.

[Gordon Carrera]

It kind of wasn't a crash. It was a very hard but controlled.

[David McClarsky]

Landing because the pilot knew exactly what he was doing.

[Gordon Carrera]

It happens in the animal pen part.

[David McClarsky]

Of the compound there, cows living there. And so the, the Blackhawk kind of slams down.

[Unknown]

I mean, this is a disaster, isn't it? Potentially though, it's not a disaster. That's wrong. There's the potential for a disaster is the potential if you've got a helicopter which has gone down to start thinking that has got echoes of that famous raid in Iran to try and free the hostages where helicopters crash, don't they, in the desert. And the whole thing is a kind.

[David McClarsky]

Of catastrophe or Black Hawk down, because again, this is an actual Black Hawk that is seemingly crashed in Pakistan. And the tail rotor kind of clips.

[Gordon Carrera]

That compound wall so it can't fly. But again, it's not really a crash.

[David McClarsky]

Because I think the pilot did exactly.

[Gordon Carrera]

What he should have done in that situation and frankly, they've prepared for this.

[David McClarsky]

And in fact, McRaven, Admiral McRaven, who's narrating this for the Obama team, says.

[Gordon Carrera]

We will now be amending the mission. My men are prepared for this contingency and they will deal with it. Wow. Now one of the Chinooks is called up from the waiting area. So we should note, I think what's.

[David McClarsky]

Really different about this is the element of it's, it's Pakistan, right?

[Gordon Carrera]

That's the Part of this that's so.

[David McClarsky]

Different, I mean, but again, these guys have done this many, many, many times.

[Gordon Carrera]

This isn't new to any of them.

[David McClarsky]

So one of the Chinooks is called.

[Gordon Carrera]

Up from the waiting area.

[David McClarsky]

Second helicopter then lands outside the compound. Now of course at this point, because a helicopter has made a very hard.

[Gordon Carrera]

Landing into his cow pen.

[David McClarsky]

Osama bin Laden is awake and his.

[Gordon Carrera]

Wife Amal, who was with him in the bedroom, has gone to check on her five children. Osama bin Laden's two eldest daughters have come up to check on him.

[David McClarsky]

And you kind of get the sense here that you can look out the window somewhere presumably something big is happening.

[Unknown]

So the element of surprise is definitely gone at this point, hasn't it?

[David McClarsky]

That's right, yeah. The, the fast rope thing where they're going to be able to kind of come in like ninjas is not, not going to happen. So Osama bin Laden is upstairs with his two eldest daughters together they pray, they pray the Kalima, the Muslim profession.

[Gordon Carrera]

Of faith, and say there is no.

[David McClarsky]

God, but, but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. Osama bin Laden tells his daughters, basically, you know, the Americans have arrived and you need to, you need to leave this room immediately.

[Gordon Carrera]

And they refuse.

[David McClarsky]

So they're with them now. The seals move from that animal pen area toward a one story building that houses Abu Ahmed, the Kuwaiti, the bodyguard. Seals check the door, it's locked. They place a small explosive charge on it.

[Gordon Carrera]

Someone starts shooting through the door.

[David McClarsky]

Seals return fire and then everything goes quiet. They shout in Arabic open the door and come out. The door opens, bodyguard's wife comes out holding small child. There's three other children trailing behind her and Abu Ahmed is dead. Now the seals are entering.

[Gordon Carrera]

Another group of seals are entering the main house.

[David McClarsky]

Inside it's pitch black again. The electricity is out in Abbottabad that night.

[Gordon Carrera]

Some of the early accounts of the raid suggested that the US had somehow turned it off. The more recent accounts have suggested that.

[David McClarsky]

It'S actually just that Pakistan rations the power, Right? So there was load shedding happening that night in Abbottabad. So the seals go in, it's black. Now Bin Laden's other bodyguard, which is.

[Gordon Carrera]

The Abu Ahmed's brother and his wife, they live on the ground floor. One of the seals shoots and kills them both.

[David McClarsky]

Apparently his wife had been armed. So there's more seals, three of them walking through the kitchen kind of move.

[Gordon Carrera]

Deeper into the house.

[David McClarsky]

Near the back of the house is a stairwell. Now it's not a normal stairwell. There is a massive Iron gate that is blocking the staircase and the access.

[Gordon Carrera]

To the upper two floors of the house.

[David McClarsky]

Which is not normal, which is not standard, which is.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's the kind of suspicious if you're in. You. You're thinking, this definitely feels like we're onto something now, don't you?

[Gordon Carrera]

Now, the SEALs put an explosive charge in the gate. They blow it open. If all this sounds familiar to listeners.

[David McClarsky]

You also note that I think the Zero Dark Thirty.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's pretty realistic, isn't it?

[David McClarsky]

It's pretty realistic to what happens. Now.

[Gordon Carrera]

The CIA thinks that Osama bin Laden's.

[David McClarsky]

Son Khalid lives up on the second floor. And on the second floor, as they're sort of going up the stairs, the SEAL who's on point sees a head pop out and then kind of disappear back around a corner.

[Gordon Carrera]

The seal whispers, khalid, Khalid. And then hearing his name, Khalid sticks.

[David McClarsky]

His head out and he's shot and killed. The seals step over his body and move forward.

[Unknown]

They're not taking prisoners.

[Gordon Carrera]

No.

[David McClarsky]

Anyone who is armed, any adult males are being shot.

[Unknown]

Oh, threat. Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

So the point man who's going upstairs sees someone stick his head out of.

[David McClarsky]

A room on the third floor, and he thinks it's bin Laden.

[Gordon Carrera]

He shoots at him.

[David McClarsky]

Now, he might have wounded him. You know, there's. There's a whole separate side story to.

[Gordon Carrera]

The number of seals that have come.

[David McClarsky]

Out to talk about their role in the raid. And, you know who actually shot bin Laden.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[David McClarsky]

I will note that it doesn't actually matter for the purposes of the story, but he may have been wounded here.

[Gordon Carrera]

Now, the point man steps ahead. There's two other seals coming upstairs.

[David McClarsky]

Amal, his wife, sees someone coming up the stairs and aiming a weapon in the direction of her husband. She rushes the soldier, the seal, and Amal is shot in the calf, and.

[Gordon Carrera]

Then kind of passes out or slumps over onto the bed.

[David McClarsky]

Now, there's. There's knots of children and grandchildren that.

[Gordon Carrera]

Are kind of gathering on the staircase. We mentioned this place is full of kids. Right. The point man bursts into that third.

[David McClarsky]

Floor bedroom and sees two women. These are bin Laden's two eldest daughters, and kind of sweeps them into his arms and shoves him against this wall.

[Gordon Carrera]

To get him out of the way.

[David McClarsky]

Or potentially to protect his colleagues from.

[Gordon Carrera]

A suicide vest or something like that.

[Unknown]

It is worth saying they are not just killing everybody in the house.

[Gordon Carrera]

No, they're not. They're absolutely not.

[David McClarsky]

I mean, it seems that the reason why the bodyguard's wife, Mariam, was shot.

[Gordon Carrera]

Was because she was armed.

[David McClarsky]

Yeah, and that would be the exception. And Amal is shot in the calf, not to kill, but to injure because she's rushing at the soldier.

[Unknown]

But then there they are with bin Laden.

[David McClarsky]

But then there they are, and it seems that the two seals gone into the room and shoot Salma bin Laden.

[Gordon Carrera]

More rounds into his chest and apparently.

[David McClarsky]

Through the left eye, and then that's it, he's dead.

[Unknown]

I mean, it's amazing. I mean, dramatic and yet also, after so many years, almost anticlimactic. I mean, it couldn't. It doesn't sound right because it is incredibly dramatic and exciting and yet that's how it ends for this guy.

[Gordon Carrera]

He doesn't fight.

[Unknown]

No, he doesn't fight. In the end, you know, so much for all his lances and heroism and, you know, the image he'd project of himself. It's not quite the end for him that I think he'd maybe expected or wanted. Going out fighting.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. You wonder if he's trying to protect his family, maybe knowing that if he.

[David McClarsky]

Starts to shoot, is he gonna risk kids, grandkids being killed? Yeah. I mean, so there were 11 adults in the compound. I mean, seven were shot in the.

[Gordon Carrera]

Space of 15 minutes, presumably while he is listening.

[David McClarsky]

Right. Or watching.

[Unknown]

He knows what's going on.

[David McClarsky]

He knows what's happening. Now the raid Commander calls Admiral McRaven on a satellite radio and he says, forgotten country. Geronimo.

[Gordon Carrera]

Geronimo is the code name for Osama bin Laden.

[David McClarsky]

So he does this right after they've shot him. Now, McRaven asks the.

[Gordon Carrera]

The SEAL commander on the ground, you know, is he.

[David McClarsky]

Ekia, enemy killed in action? And a few seconds later, the answer comes back, roger. Geronimo, ekia. Now, McRaven also announces this to the. To the White House crew that's gathered there in that anteroom. Michael Morell, who's the deputy director, and.

[Gordon Carrera]

Leon Panetta, who's the director of the CIA, apparently hug. It's the first of two highly unusual hugs between CIA senior officials.

[Unknown]

Not a great hugging.

[Gordon Carrera]

It's not a huge hugging organization at the upper levels, as far as I can gather. They will hug again, though, later, apparently, when they hear chants of usa. Usa. Usa. CIA. CIA. CIA. While leaving the White House. So there's another hu.

[Unknown]

Two. Two hugs.

[David McClarsky]

Unprecedented hugs between two officials who I.

[Gordon Carrera]

Would have thought were more handshake type guys. Now, on the second floor of the.

[David McClarsky]

House, there's a massive trove of stuff.

[Gordon Carrera]

There's CDs, DVDs, memory cards, thumb drives.

[David McClarsky]

Computers, digital voice recorders. So this is real intel, right? This could be the kind of thing that not only helps shed light on Al Qaeda, it might stop other plots.

[Gordon Carrera]

Might stop other plots, exactly. So the seals start basically bagging all.

[David McClarsky]

Of this stuff up.

[Gordon Carrera]

They end up taking 10 hard drives, five computers, around 100 storage devices like thumb drives and disks, right?

[David McClarsky]

They're on target on the ground for like 45 minutes.

[Gordon Carrera]

And McRaven of course is starting to.

[David McClarsky]

Get a little nervous about this, says okay, let's, let's wrap this up.

[Gordon Carrera]

And outside the compound that Pashto interpreters is seeing that like well the neighborhood's up now, right? People are waking up because of all this noise.

[David McClarsky]

I mean there's been gunfire, there's been a helicopter crash and people are coming at the compound.

[Gordon Carrera]

And again you can see a version of this in Zero Dark Thirty.

[David McClarsky]

And the, the pasto interpreter calls at.

[Gordon Carrera]

Them and he basically says look, this is government business.

[David McClarsky]

If you want to stay alive, don't.

[Gordon Carrera]

Come, go back to your house.

[David McClarsky]

There's still though people you know, kind.

[Gordon Carrera]

Of looky lose who are interested in what's going on.

[David McClarsky]

These guys keep running at the compound.

[Gordon Carrera]

The seals actually apparently get ready to.

[David McClarsky]

Shoot them and the interpreter says no, hold on, let me have a word with them.

[Gordon Carrera]

And basically the interpreter yells at them eventually and they turn back around so.

[David McClarsky]

No one else has to, has to be shot right now. So the seals, they end up being at the compound in total for 48 minutes, which is 18 minutes longer than they had planned presumably because of they weren't able to fast rope and they.

[Gordon Carrera]

May not have expected frankly the massive quantity of stuff.

[David McClarsky]

Right. And they've also got to like frankly restrain all of the, the women and.

[Gordon Carrera]

Children who are still left behind and the Pakistanis will have to deal with them. Right?

[David McClarsky]

They've also got that downed Blackhawk helicopter which is sitting there kind of rumpled.

[Gordon Carrera]

Over the side of the cow pen.

[Unknown]

And which is full of very top secret kind of equipment, isn't it? Which you don't want.

[Gordon Carrera]

You'd prefer that the Pakistanis don't get.

[David McClarsky]

The avionics off of that thing, right. So they basically load it with explosives and blow it up at 1:06am it.

[Gordon Carrera]

Sends 150 foot mushroom cloud into the.

[David McClarsky]

Air above the compound. The Chinook that it come in to kind of pick up the remaining seals as well as to take Bin Laden's.

[Gordon Carrera]

DNA samples and all this intel retrieved at the compound.

[David McClarsky]

So you've got another helicopter that's come in now. Bin Laden's body has been placed on that surviving Blackhawk because that's going to.

[Gordon Carrera]

Be the fastest bird to get out.

[David McClarsky]

And they want to make sure that the body is not captured by the.

[Gordon Carrera]

Pakistanis or shot down or anything like that. One Chinook flies a direct route back to Afghanistan.

[David McClarsky]

The surviving Blackhawk heads to get fuel from the second Chinook, which has a fuel bladder that can refuel the Blackhawk, and then those two helicopters return to Afghanistan. So at 2:26am local, the Chinook and.

[Gordon Carrera]

The Blackhawk enter Afghan airspace.

[David McClarsky]

And it's in some of the memoirs.

[Gordon Carrera]

After this that is the first time that the seals had really enjoyed hearing the words welcome to Afghanistan. So they're back and safe outside of Pakistani airspace.

[Unknown]

So the big question though, at this moment, because of course, you know, remembering the decision to go in, they weren't totally sure it was bin Laden. There was always the possibility it was someone else. Now a lot of this has suggested it is someone very important, but that's got to be the crucial question at this moment, is confirming it was bin Laden and making sure you've got the right guy. Because that's all the pressure is, is on that, isn't it, and trying to, to understand it. When I go back to Kofa Black after 9, 11, giving the orders to some of the people they were sending into Afghanistan, we did this in some of our earliest episodes and he said, bring me back bin Laden's head in a box on dry ice. And it was both a kind of grizzly trophy that Kofa Black wanted. But actually if you're, I mean, I remember actually asking him myself about this and he said, no, no, no, no. It's about confirmation, it's about DNA, it's about being sure it's him.

[David McClarsky]

It's not about bloodlust.

[Unknown]

It's not about bloodlust. Now, I'm not sure about that Kofa, but, you know, that's what he told me. But it's interesting, even back then it was like, that's how you confirm you've got him is the equivalent of head in a box. It's going to be slightly different this time. I mean, they're not going to deliver the head in the box to the White House, but they do need to, to be sure it's him.

[David McClarsky]

They do. And I mean, Michael Morell in his memoir will make the point that for a while after the raid, I mean, no one can really be certain at this point. You're more or less taking it on the word of, you know, the SEALs.

[Gordon Carrera]

Who are in the room and that's fine, but it's not 100% confirmation. They take pictures and then run it.

[David McClarsky]

Through a couple facial recognition tools.

[Unknown]

Well, I don't think there's that much of his face. I mean, it's pretty. He's been shot.

[David McClarsky]

Well, yeah, and it's, it's suffered damage, right? I mean, at one point, one of.

[Gordon Carrera]

The seals actually lies down next to.

[David McClarsky]

The body in Jalalabad to try to confirm the height. And I think Obama makes some jibe.

[Gordon Carrera]

On the other end of this video.

[David McClarsky]

Conference saying we just spent $60 million on a helicopter, meaning that crashed Blackhawk.

[Gordon Carrera]

And you guys didn't have 10 bucks for a tape measure.

[David McClarsky]

You know, we have to sort of.

[Gordon Carrera]

Eyeball this with another, with a tall SEAL who sat down.

[David McClarsky]

So the CIA does have two facial.

[Gordon Carrera]

Recognition analysts in the DS&T, the Directorate of Science and Technology independently look at the photos. They say we're 95% sure it's him.

[David McClarsky]

And the White House essentially decides like.

[Gordon Carrera]

We can't sit on this story because.

[David McClarsky]

It'S just, it's gonna break, right? But the next day they do conduct.

[Gordon Carrera]

DNA testing at a forensics lab out in Afghanistan at Bagram Air Base and.

[David McClarsky]

Confirm it's Osama bin Laden.

[Unknown]

And then it's that evening. So it's Sunday evening Washington time, isn't it? And it's starting to kind of. I remember this an interesting way because the news started to leak that something was going to be announced. There was going to be a special presidential statement. And I think it was kind of 10:30pm or something around that time. And it was interesting because I was in London and I. It was one of the few times where you get woken up really in the middle of the night. And I think I got woken up about 2:33 in the morning. Normally they'd let you leave you till about 5am at the BBC, but that time they woke me up at 2:30 and they said, look, something big is going on. And it was interesting because they had a feeling it was bin Laden. They said. So already kind of rumors were seeping out that it was going to be an announcement in bin Laden. So I remember racing into the office and then it was extraordinary because by the time President Obama makes this announcement, we've got him. There's these cheers outside the White House, aren't there? And people start gathering outside the White House and chanting. It was extraordinary because actually already the news started to come out that bin Laden's body was gone. They pushed it out, hadn't they into the Indian Ocean, I think, and deposited the body. So it was this extraordinary moment where you're like, it's over, it's done and it's complete, and the body is even gone because they're so sure it's him. It's very rare to have something which is so final, so precise and so complete at that moment. I think as that and so memorable.

[David McClarsky]

I was working at the CIA at that point in time. I was in D.C. at Langley, and I was not working on counterterrorism issues or Al Qaeda or bin Laden or anything like that. So I remember I had, like a good federal worker, Gordon. I had gone to bed early that.

[Gordon Carrera]

Night to prepare myself for the week. So I didn't hear about it until.

[David McClarsky]

The next morning when I'm driving. I still do remember listening to the radio, driving down the GW Parkway on the way to Langley and hearing the news.

[Gordon Carrera]

And for me, it had come out of nowhere because of course, I'm not privy to any of this.

[David McClarsky]

Just out of the blue, seemingly, and get into Langley and there's a message.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right away, kind of an all workforce message.

[David McClarsky]

These things that pop up on everybody's computer all at once, basically saying, the director is going to address the workforce.

[Gordon Carrera]

So there's a video address that Panetta gives, and I can still remember it.

[David McClarsky]

Today, because usually these kinds of things are a bit dry and not frankly, worth listening to unless it's like, on.

[Gordon Carrera]

A topic that's like, really impacting you.

[David McClarsky]

I mean, a lot of people would, you know, just sort of go about their day, but Panetta was so off script and so excited. Like, I don't think I've ever seen.

[Gordon Carrera]

An adult human as excited as Leon.

[David McClarsky]

Panetta was that morning. And he gave this terrifically profane, blunt.

[Gordon Carrera]

Detail Laden speech about the raid that.

[David McClarsky]

He probably, probably shouldn't have given. But he was so excited. I honestly have never seen someone's. It was like CIA. It was like Christmas morning for a.

[Gordon Carrera]

CIA director is what it was like. He was just so thrilled.

[Unknown]

I mean, what a contrast to that. Compare it to September 11th and 12th, 2001, and the sense of kind of despair in the counterterrorism center when they realized the attack had got through. And the kind of shock of it. What a contrast is, we sort of.

[Gordon Carrera]

Reflect back and we should say, I mean, you mentioned bin Laden's body being tipped into the. Into the Indian Ocean.

[David McClarsky]

I mean, he's given a burial at sea. He's given a proper kind of Muslim burial. But the administration had decided, look, we don't want him to be buried anywhere. We do not want there to be the possibility for like a, you know.

[Gordon Carrera]

Sort of a monument or a shrine to this guy.

[David McClarsky]

We want the location to be unknown. And there were pictures taken, of course, of his body and of the burial to prove that it had happened, but they're not made public again, I think, because there's a desire in the part of the White House, and I think understandably so, that you don't want any of that material used in someone's radicalization.

[Gordon Carrera]

Story in the future.

[David McClarsky]

Almost this erasure of him.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Gordon Carrera]

Is. Is what they're after.

[David McClarsky]

And yet when you think about the impact this guy has had on. On the world, I mean, we started this series talking about how he's probably.

[Gordon Carrera]

One of the most influential people of the past 50 years.

[David McClarsky]

And it's almost like, where do you even start? Because if you go back to the decade after 9 11, I mean, there.

[Gordon Carrera]

Really is a direct line, isn't there.

[David McClarsky]

Gordon, from him to 911 to the conflicts that really defined the first quarter.

[Gordon Carrera]

Really the first 25 years of this century.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Coming up to the people called them the forever wars, didn't they? I mean, you know, Afghanistan and Iraq, particularly that period of really intense conflict. Because I don't think Iraq would have happened without 9 11, certainly not in the way it did. No, Iraq transformed the Middle East. The kind of impact on Afghanistan as well. That long intervention in Afghanistan that wouldn't have happened without 9 11. And then you think about the impact on so many other countries of Al Qaeda, whether it's Pakistan where, you know, many people died as well. I mean, one of the things we've never really got to the bottom of is what do the Pakistani government, one of unanswered questions, you know, in the Pakistani military and intelligence, know about the fact bin Laden was in Abbottabad. But anyway, Pakistan is also a country which suffered, you know, at the hands of Al Qaeda and some pretty terrible attacks, as did so many countries.

[Gordon Carrera]

Syria, Yemen, Saudi, Britain and 7.

[Unknown]

7. You think of the Madrid bombings, you just think of the kind of the toll of wars and terrorism, which. Which really did emanate from this one individual. And it is kind of extraordinary, I think. And I think some of those aspects of terrorism and conflict would have happened, but I don't think they would have happened in nearly the same way without bin Laden.

[David McClarsky]

Well, it's interesting how global American counterterrorism.

[Gordon Carrera]

Operations become in the decade afterward.

[David McClarsky]

I mean, we, the Americans conducted counterterrorism operations in 78 countries in the decade.

[Gordon Carrera]

Only two decades after 911 there are.

[David McClarsky]

New American bases that pop up in.

[Gordon Carrera]

Afghanistan and Djibouti and Iraq and Kuwait.

[David McClarsky]

In Qatar, in Syria, in the uae.

[Gordon Carrera]

I went and had a look.

[David McClarsky]

There's a group at Brown University, it's.

[Gordon Carrera]

Called the Costs of War Project that has tried to put both a human and an economic cost on a number of these conflicts. And they estimate that there's somewhere between.

[David McClarsky]

Around 900,000 and 940,000 people that were.

[Gordon Carrera]

Killed in direct military action between Afghanistan.

[David McClarsky]

Iraq, Syria, Yemen and Pakistan.

[Gordon Carrera]

And if you take an indirect toll, that's maybe 3 million to 5 million.

[David McClarsky]

People who died from disease, starvation, the.

[Gordon Carrera]

Collapse of public infrastructure in these wars.

[David McClarsky]

There were 38 million people displaced by.

[Gordon Carrera]

The conflicts that we now call the 911 wars. It's just, it's astounding.

[Unknown]

And also there's an opportunity cost because that decade spent dealing with Al Qaeda and more, you know, and then ISIS is also time when we weren't doing other things and you know, including dealing with other national security challenges like the rise of China because of this kind of focus on getting bin Laden and the manhunt. And I think that's one of the other kind of difficult legacies about the fact, because this is one of the big themes of our series, is that it did take a long time. I think, you know, it's a triumph for the United States in the end to get him in the end. But I do think if you'd said to people just after 911 it's going to take place close to a decade. I think that's a long time, a long, long time for him to be on the run and to be kind of doing all the damage he did.

[Gordon Carrera]

There's this sort of long, long shadow.

[David McClarsky]

That he probably more than anyone else.

[Gordon Carrera]

Has cast over all of us.

[David McClarsky]

I mean this was a crazy one. Gordon. So on 911 there were 16 people.

[Gordon Carrera]

On the US no fly list 16. And by the time of the Abbottabad.

[David McClarsky]

Raid there were 40,000 and another million people on a list where they'll basically pulled into secondary if they get onto a US bound flight. So there's kind of this like Fortress America thing.

[Unknown]

It's a great statistic because arguably that tells you a lot of the whole story we've been telling in that one statistic as we come to an end because the fact there are only 16 people on a no fly list on 9 11, that was probably too few. And the fact that they didn't have some of the people who were actually Al Qaeda operatives, you know, on the no Fly list that was a kind of a miss. So it was too little pressure on Al Qaeda before and then arguably too much where you end up with this kind of massive national security state and machinery.

[David McClarsky]

I mean the other angle here is it is true that there was not.

[Gordon Carrera]

Another massive casualty, spectacular attack conducted in.

[David McClarsky]

The US homeland in the 25 years after 9 11.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right.

[David McClarsky]

I mean the US, the FBI, the.

[Gordon Carrera]

CIA are sort of our intel and.

[David McClarsky]

Security agencies were successful at preventing another one from happening and there were loads.

[Gordon Carrera]

That, that were in the works that.

[David McClarsky]

Were stopped midstream from, from occurring. But what we now have is a world where really lone wolf terrorists in many respects who are kind of, they.

[Gordon Carrera]

Can be radicalized just by reading about.

[David McClarsky]

Osama Bin Laden on the Internet and.

[Gordon Carrera]

Talking in chat rooms.

[David McClarsky]

I mean you have these kind of smaller scale, almost homegrown jihadist attacks that have killed over 100 people in the states since 9 11. And I really think that, I mean another legacy of Bin Laden's is that even though we might see Al Qaeda's.

[Gordon Carrera]

Terrorism as kind of religious terrorism that.

[David McClarsky]

Does have some roots in anarchism, this kind of anti colonial or Marxist waves.

[Gordon Carrera]

Of terrorism that occurred in the 60s.

[David McClarsky]

And the 70s, those waves really burn themselves out over time. And you kind of, you know, maybe as we look ahead you think, well.

[Gordon Carrera]

This current Al Qaeda inspired phase in.

[David McClarsky]

Many respects might do just that. But it's actually, I think maybe not.

[Gordon Carrera]

Going to be as simple as that.

[David McClarsky]

Because Bin Laden's brand is, it's religious.

[Gordon Carrera]

And even though a very tiny number.

[David McClarsky]

Of Muslims around the world ascribe to.

[Gordon Carrera]

His ideas like infinitesimally small, it is.

[David McClarsky]

Still in just raw numbers, a decent.

[Gordon Carrera]

Number of potential recruits.

[David McClarsky]

Right.

[Unknown]

Probably more now than there were on the eve of 911 as a result of 911 and the wars afterwards and the policies afterwards.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So I guess after this fascinating journey into Bin Laden, into the battle between Bin Laden and the CIA, David, where do you leave it when you kind of think about him and the man? I mean it's hard to sum it up, isn't it? I mean back to the poet, the lens of poetry.

[David McClarsky]

Gordon is powerful and there's this, a line from one of his horrendous poems.

[Gordon Carrera]

Says, let my grave be an eagle's belly, its resting place in the sky's atmosphere amongst perched eagles.

[David McClarsky]

And he wrote a lot of that.

[Gordon Carrera]

Few years after 911 while he was in hiding.

[David McClarsky]

And I do think he didn't get.

[Gordon Carrera]

His wish, which I think is one.

[David McClarsky]

One way to look at the man.

[Gordon Carrera]

I mean his resting place is not.

[David McClarsky]

In the skies atmosphere amongst perched eagles.

[Gordon Carrera]

His family, just to bring it back to the man, we started this series.

[David McClarsky]

With Osama bin Laden. The man, the boy, young Osama growing up in Saudi and you know, his.

[Gordon Carrera]

Family, much of it was destroyed. He had two sons that were killed in US counterterrorism operations. He had a daughter who he had.

[David McClarsky]

Married off at the age of 12.

[Gordon Carrera]

Who dies in childbirth while delivering her.

[David McClarsky]

Baby on the run in Pakistan. He had his son in law killed.

[Gordon Carrera]

In a drone strike. Two of his wives left him before.

[David McClarsky]

911 taking five children with them because they couldn't deal with it anymore, which.

[Gordon Carrera]

Makes a lot of sense. Two of his adult sons had abandoned.

[David McClarsky]

Him, you know, and after 911 seven.

[Gordon Carrera]

Of his children and his oldest wife.

[David McClarsky]

Were held under house arrest in Iran.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right?

[David McClarsky]

So and then you have Amal, his wife was wounded in the raid, right.

[Gordon Carrera]

Shot by a US seal. And she and the other two wives in Abbottabad are held in Pakistani custody for another year after that.

[David McClarsky]

So you know, this is a guy who dies violently at the hands of a couple of young American soldiers. He's in this kind of, as you said, a self made prison among his wives and children. He's surrounded by broken glass and wreck stuff and kids toys. And after all of that he is.

[Gordon Carrera]

Not perched among the eagles but he is dropped quietly into the sea and he disappears.

[Unknown]

And so there, David, with Osama bin Laden at the bottom of the ocean beneath the waves. I think we should leave it. But just to say for those who are wise enough to be members of the declassified club, we have a special treat for you, don't we David? Because we have actually got an interview which we've done with one of the people who was part of that CIA team hunting for Osama bin Laden for many years.

[David McClarsky]

That's right. So we're going to talk with an.

[Gordon Carrera]

Alumnus of the CIA's Counterterrorism center who was deeply involved in the hunt, is going to talk to us about the hunt.

[David McClarsky]

He's going to talk to us about.

[Gordon Carrera]

What it was like at the CIA on 9 11. He's going to talk to us a little bit about the raid.

[David McClarsky]

So he's going to tell Gordon everything.

[Gordon Carrera]

Gordon got wrong in the series so.

[David McClarsky]

Far and make a great scorecard out of it. So don't miss that. And of course go to the restisclassified.

[Gordon Carrera]

Com if you want to sign up.

[David McClarsky]

For the club, if you don't want to. It's of course frowned upon, but nonetheless, we shall return next time.

[Unknown]

See you next time.