Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Classified – Episode 81

The Man Who Saved The World: Abandoning Communism (Ep 2)

Hosts: David McCloskey & Gordon Corera
Date: September 9, 2025

Overview

This thrilling episode delves into the world of Cold War espionage, tracing the transformative journey of Oleg Gordievsky—Soviet KGB officer turned MI6 agent. Hosts David McCloskey (former CIA analyst and spy novelist) and Gordon Corera (security correspondent) explore Gordievsky's evolving disillusionment with communism, the tense dance of spy recruitment, and the risks and psychology of defectors in place, all while unpacking the practical challenges and human nuances of running agents during a period marked by distrust and mole hunts.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Oleg Gordievsky’s Growing Disillusionment

• After returning to Moscow from Denmark, Gordievsky is viscerally alienated by Soviet life, contrasting it with the intellectual and personal freedoms experienced in the West.
  • Quote – Oleg Gordievsky (from autobiography, read by McCloskey):
    “The poison of European life had entered my system... it was impossible to forget that over there, another life was going on, better than ours in every respect.” (01:23)
• His personal unhappiness, strained marriage, and growing desire to act against the system set the stage for espionage.

2. The 1971 Spy Expulsions and the Denmark Connection

• A defected KGB officer, Oleg Lyalin, exposes sabotage and assassination plans, leading to the largest expulsion of Soviet intelligence officers (Operation FOOT).
  • Quote – Gordon Corera:
    “105 are expelled in one go. At that time it is the biggest expulsion... ever in history.” (04:42)
• Gordievsky benefits from this, receiving an unexpected chance to return to Denmark as a press attaché under the KGB's political reporting department.
• Personal tragedy (death of his older brother, an alcoholic and KGB officer) inadvertently aids his career transition.

3. Life and Espionage in Copenhagen

• Gordievsky resumes his life in Denmark, outwardly loyal but secretly yearning to help the West.
• He walks a fine line—reconciling friendships (notably with KGB resident Mikhail ‘Smiley Mike’ Lubimov, a Kim Philby fan) and living a double life.
  • McCloskey humor:
    “The knitwear guys are always a cover slot, isn’t it?” (04:03)
  • Corera on Lubimov:
    “He hangs portraits of his twin heroes: Lenin and Kim Philby... often sending little gifts back to Philby. Jars of marmalade, whiskey...” (08:05)
• Hosts reflect on the difficulty and cunning required to signal a willingness to defect without getting caught.

4. The Dance of Recruitment: MI6, CIA, and the Danes

• British (MI6) and Danish intelligence work closely. The Danes confide more in MI6 than in the CIA, due to perceived heavy-handedness of American counterparts.
  • Quote – Corera:
    “European services... find MI6 a lot easier to work with than the CIA.” (11:03)
  • Joke – McCloskey:
    “Chief of station in Copenhagen is wearing a Stetson around town, swaggering around.” (11:14)
• Recruitment efforts are clumsy at first: attempted contacts via badminton games and a visit from a defected Czech friend, creating dangerous but noncommittal interactions.
• The challenge of balancing natural cover with operational security is discussed in depth.

5. The Delicate First Moves

• Gordievsky and MI6 engage in subtle probing, with signals carefully masked by the conventions of diplomatic espionage.
• Gordievsky is cautious; MI6 fears a “dangle”—a KGB plant designed to deceive.
  • Corera:
    “A dangle... is someone offering themselves up to be recruited, if actually loyal to their own service... After the great mole hunts, MI6 has been played pretty badly.” (18:45)
• It takes nearly a year and considerable patience before trust is carefully established.

6. Crossing the Line: Commitment and Risk

• Eventually, Gordievsky signals his commitment by not reporting secret meetings with MI6 to the KGB, fully becoming an agent.
• A rocky start with a new, aggressive MI6 handler nearly derails the relationship:
  • Corera (relaying Gordievsky):
    “He came with an open soul... and all he’s getting is a hostile interrogation. He feels really disappointed.” (22:54)
  • Handler’s suspicion is so deep he later confesses he thought Gordievsky was a “plant” all along.

7. Agent’s Conditions and Ideology over Money

• Gordievsky sets three conditions:
  • Does not want to hurt his KGB colleagues in Denmark (esp. friend Lubimov)
  • Wants no photographs or recordings
  • Does not want money
• MI6 is perplexed, as money usually binds agents, but realize Gordievsky’s motives are deeply ideological.
  • Corera:
    “It really is ideology... that’s why Gordievsky’s interesting.” (24:55)

8. Life Under MI6: Tradecraft, Patience, and Paranoia

• Meetings are held monthly in a Danish safe house (despite Gordievsky’s conditions), sharing invaluable intelligence on KGB illegals and operations.
• MI6 remains cautious, still suspecting possible deception until the volume and quality of information become impossible to ignore.
  • Memorable exchange:
    McCloskey: “He’s like, I get it, man, I live there. I understand there’s no toilet paper.”
    Corera: “Yeah, they’re bad, I know it.” (27:14)
• Gordievsky eventually accepts small payments and provides names of KGB-run agents—no grand roll-up, but patient, high-value reporting.

9. Personal Betrayals and Complications

• Simultaneously betrays the KGB and his wife Yelena by falling in love with Layla (the daughter of a senior KGB officer).
  • Hosts tease Gordievsky about giving paramours dissident literature and pornographic magazines:
    McCloskey: “First we had the gay porn that he gave to his wife, now he’s giving dissident literature to his mistress.” (32:49) Corera: “Give them jewels and shoes!” (33:10)

10. Back to Moscow: Dormancy and Caution

• Gordievsky’s tour in Denmark ends. On returning to Moscow, divorce from Yelena damages his career—denied a high-profile position, shunted into personnel.
• MI6, still scarred by the Penkovsky case, refuses to run Gordievsky inside the USSR. Contact ceases for three years.
  • Corera:
    “They are incredibly cautious about risks... talking about a death sentence if he’s caught.” (39:35)
• Meanwhile, the CIA takes greater risks running agents like Tolkachev inside Moscow—a major contrast.

11. The Path to London: The Ultimate Prize

• Gordievsky positions himself for a London posting, learning English, reading operational files, and playing internal politics.
• A crucial personnel shuffle opens a slot at the Soviet embassy in London, and Gordievsky, aided by a fast-tracked British visa, is dispatched—despite a minor scare that the speed raises suspicions in Moscow.
  • Corera, tongue-in-cheek: “It’s just general British incompetence.” (43:29)
• With his wife and young daughters, Gordievsky’s family leaves for Britain, with only Gordievsky aware of the true stakes.
  • Corera:
    “He’s making sandwiches for relatives... he cuts himself really deeply in his hands. In his mind, this is just a sign... how tense he is.” (44:50)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the perils and paranoia of spy recruitment:
  Corera: “They are so attuned to the dangle and to the kind of plant in the game, aren’t they, that they can’t sometimes believe when they get the real deal.” (23:57)
• On MI6's regained confidence:
  Corera: “I think that’s one of the reasons Gordievsky is so important to MI6, because it’s going to show they can do it.” (32:03) McCloskey: “Get your mojo back.” (32:05)
• On betrayal (romantic and political):
  Corera: “He’s leading this crazy life of two betrayals... betraying the KGB for MI6, and he’s betraying Yelena to be with Layla.” (33:14)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Oleg’s return and disillusionment: 01:23–03:17
• Operation FOOT/KGB expulsions: 03:17–06:12
• Copenhagen double life & old friend “Smiley Mike”: 07:25–09:34
• MI6/Danish/CIA rivalry & recruitment attempts: 10:17–13:46
• First MI6 approach and cautious courtship: 14:54–17:19
• The dangle fear and year-long stall: 17:19–20:38
• Crossing the line & handling missteps: 21:02–23:40
• Gordievsky’s conditions & MI6’s ideological realization: 23:57–25:24
• Life as an MI6 agent/case handling: 25:56–30:30
• Personal complications (romance/divorce): 32:16–34:45
• Dormancy and patience post-Copenhagen: 38:26–41:00
• London posting/arrival: 42:29–44:50

Conclusion

This episode pulls back the curtain on Cold War human-intelligence operations, tracing Gordievsky’s fraught path from disillusionment to full-blown betrayal as a double agent. Through humor, sharp analysis, and historical context, the hosts illuminate the murky world of spy recruitment, highlighting both bureaucratic fumbles and acts of remarkable courage.

Next Episode Preview:
Gordievsky’s new life as an MI6 spy in London commences—raising the stakes and tension for all involved.