82. The Man Who Saved The World: Britain’s Best Ever Agent (Ep 3)

Summary

The Rest Is Classified – Episode 82: The Man Who Saved The World: Britain’s Best Ever Agent (Ep 3)

Podcast Date: September 14, 2025
Hosts: David McCloskey, former CIA analyst and novelist; Gordon Corera, veteran security correspondent
Main Theme:
This episode dives deep into the covert life of Oleg Gordievsky, Britain’s most valuable Cold War double agent, tracing his arrival in London, the inner workings of MI6 and KGB in the early 1980s, the characters shaping his story, and how his intelligence transformed British counterespionage. The hosts unravel how Gordievsky, stationed at the heart of the KGB’s London operations, delivered insights that unveiled Soviet contacts, ended a dangerous MI5 mole’s career, and altered the course of Cold War tensions.

---

I. Oleg Gordievsky Arrives in London: Seeing the "Awful" City (02:46–05:13)

• Setting the Scene: Oleg Gordievsky, after being recruited by MI6 in Denmark and a perilous pause in Moscow, lands in London in 1982 to resume his risky spying career for the British – this time from inside the KGB’s own local headquarters.
  • “Those are the words of Oleg Gordievsky as he lands in one of the truly most awful cities in the world. Gordon. London.” — David McCloskey (02:46)
• First Impressions: Gordievsky describes his new surroundings as "a viper pit… street after street of grimy old houses."
• Historical Context: Britain is in the midst of economic upheaval under Margaret Thatcher, post-Falklands War, with deep social divisions and a not-so-glamorous London.

Notable Quote:
"He signed up for the Brits, and he's never set foot in Britain. And now he finally is arriving. It's the summer of 1982... He's kind of slightly shocked by it." — Gordon Corera (03:33)

---

II. The KGB London Residentura: Intrigue in a "Viper Pit" (07:13–09:07)

• Contrast with Copenhagen: Unlike his prior relaxed posting, the London KGB station is rife with backstabbing, suspicion, and paranoia among Soviet officers.
• Key Players:
  • Arcadi Guk (KGB Resident): Disdainful of intellectuals, consumes vodka with his counterintelligence chief, plots against his own ambassador.
  • Gordievsky walks fine lines as a young upstart and covert British agent.
• First Secret Contact: Gordievsky, soon after arrival, uses a red phone box to call his memorized MI6 contact. He’s greeted by a recorded message from his former handler, advising him to relax and await instructions.

Memorable Exchange:
"He spends his days in his office with the head of the counterintelligence team, drinking vodka out of tumblers and gossiping and plotting especially against their own ambassador..." — Gordon Corera (07:45)

---

III. MI6 Tradecraft and Key Handlers: Valerie Petit & John Scarlett (09:41–19:19)

A. The MI6 Safe Flat and Valerie Petit (09:41–14:25)

• Meeting at the Holiday Inn: Gordievsky is picked up by handlers and driven to a MI6 safe flat, where he meets Valerie Petit, the case logistics mastermind.
• Valerie Petit: One of the few senior women in MI6 at the time, described as “genteel, mild-mannered... but steely determination beneath the surface." She’s responsible for the operational safety of the case, including escape planning and coordinating intelligence.
  • "She is tasked with keeping him alive and keeping him safe..." — Gordon Corera (13:25)

B. John Scarlett: Oleg’s MI6 Case Officer (14:25–19:19)

• Transition of Handlers: With Oleg’s previous handler posted abroad, John Scarlett becomes the new case officer, although MI6 never officially confirms it even years later.
• Scarlett’s Profile: Renowned detail man, fluent in Russian, handpicked for elite KGB operations, later rises to head MI6.
• Dynamics: Gordievsky bonds quickly with Scarlett, who combines professional empathy, deep knowledge of Russia, and operational discipline.
• Notes on MI6 Culture: Reference to the “Sov Block Master Race” within MI6—elite handpicked officers for Soviet operations.

Notable Quote:
"He was a first class intelligence officer but you know, full of emotion and sensitivity as the expression goes in Russian. He had a fine structure of soul." — Oleg Gordievsky via Corera (18:13)

---

IV. Running the Agent: Tradecraft, Secrecy & MI6 Inner Circle (19:19–23:56)

• Tradecraft Details: Lunch hour meetings in a safe house; precise, businesslike handovers of intelligence; everything meticulously documented and reported by the MI6 team.
• Secrecy: Extremely tight circle; only a few upstairs in MI6’s “Russia House” know Gordievsky’s identity to protect him and the operation.
• Gordievsky’s Discipline: Renowned for his emotional control and reliability, in contrast to other notorious agents.
  • "It was like there was someone in the control room of Gordievsky's own head...always this kind of care and discipline..." — Gordon Corera (22:57)

---

V. Intelligence Goldmine: KGB Operations, British Politics & Confidential Contacts (25:44–34:27)

A. What Oleg Reveals

• KGB in Britain: Gordievsky explains the structure, paranoia, and declining effectiveness of the London KGB residentura.
  • Arcadi Guk is depicted as a cartoonish, vodka-swilling paranoiac, installing bug-jamming devices and suspecting MI5 is hiding behind tube station ads.

Memorable Exchange:
"He's so paranoid he orders his staff not to use the underground, the tube, because he said that behind the advertisement panels along the walls of underground stations were glass fronted booths in which sat members of MI5 spying on the KGB." — Gordon Corera (27:35)

B. MI5 and Political Controversies

• Clearing Up Old Spy Cases: Oleg provides intelligence that helps clear (but not definitively solve) mysteries about potential historical KGB agents inside MI5, like the case of Roger Hollis.
• Confidential contacts: The distinction between full agents, developmentals, and “confidential contacts”—many of the latter were essentially frequent lunch contacts, not actual spies.
• Political Sensitivities: High-profile example—claims about Michael Foot (Labour leader), based on old contacts as a journalist, later become a libel case with Foot winning damages. Highlights the political explosiveness and ambiguity of such spy revelations.
  • "There’s no allegation that Michael Foot was a spy or a conscious agent...But...even that claim from Oleg...is super sensitive because it’s 1982, potential political ammunition." — Corera/McCloskey (34:27)
• The incentive system: Both hosts reflect on the prevalence of fake or exaggerated agent reports, driven by case officer pressures.

---

VI. The MI5 Mole: Michael Bettany and Stopping a Penetration (36:01–48:28)

• The Danger: Oleg warns MI6 that someone inside MI5 is attempting contact with the KGB, handing over sensitive documents about Soviet personnel watched by MI5.
  • "For him, this is terrifying. This is like the nightmare for an agent..." — McCloskey (39:22)
• Mole Hunt Mechanics:
  • Only a very small, “need-to-know” group inside MI5 is aware of Gordievsky’s identity, helping isolate the suspect.
  • Eliza Manningham-Buller (future MI5 head and “friend of the pod”) is part of the tiny trusted mole-hunt team, holding clandestine planning meetings in her mother’s flat for secrecy.
• Identifying Bettany: Michael Bettany—an eccentric and suspicious MI5 officer—is eventually confronted.
  • His odd background (from Hitler speeches at Oxford to Russian icons and Nazi memorabilia at home) singles him out.
  • Although surveillance finds nothing incriminating, overwhelming circumstantial evidence and a lack of response from the KGB lead to his confession after intense questioning.
• Impact: Bettany is convicted, Gordievsky’s warning prevents a new Philby-esque penetration of British intelligence, and the vital operation remains protected.
  • "Thanks to Oleg, he has been vital—as well as Arcadi Guk's incompetence—in preventing, you know, a new Philbe, a new penetration of British intelligence." — Gordon Corera (48:09)

---

VII. Episode Wrap-up & Looking Forward (48:28–49:17)

• Gordievsky’s Value: The episode closes recognizing Gordievsky’s extraordinary discipline and the impact of his intelligence—saving his own life and, arguably, Britain’s security.
• Teaser: The next episode will cover Gordievsky’s most significant contribution: “turning down the heat of the Cold War.”

---

Key Quotes & Timestamps

• “He is maybe questioning his decision to spy for the British. I can only imagine the wonderful reaction he may have had to landing in the paradise of Washington D.C. had he decided to offer himself up to the Americans.” — David McCloskey (02:46)
• "The ambassador's residence… beautiful buildings, but they're also slightly dark and ominous and Soviet and slightly gloomy." — Gordon Corera (06:27)
• "If it was Hollywood, you would write the script differently with different looking actors. But it was a deep and personal commitment but totally professional." — Gordon Corera (13:10)
• "[Gordievsky] had a fine structure of soul." — Oleg Gordievsky quoted by Corera (18:13)
• “There are risks otherwise that, you know, their top agent could be compromised.” — Gordon Corera (23:39)
• “The numbers game, I think it's really part of the business." — David McCloskey (32:38)
• "There’s an element in which they’re playing a game…the KGB officers, because they want to make it look like they’re busy…” — Gordon Corera (31:11)
• "One of those in on the secret assigned to work the case, none other than Eliza Manningham BulIer." — Gordon Corera (42:24)
• "Thanks to Oleg...a new Philbe, a new penetration of British intelligence [was prevented].” — Gordon Corera (48:09)

---

Notable Moments

• The KGB’s paranoia about MI5 hiding inside Tube station adverts (27:35)
• Gordievsky’s coded phone box call and “personal touch” MI6 welcome (08:24–09:09)
• Gordievsky’s “control room of his own head”—extreme discipline (22:57)
• Political explosiveness of Michael Foot’s contacts and the resulting libel case (34:27)
• The oddity of Michael Bettany’s personality and MI5’s vetting failures (44:57–45:47)
• The clandestine meetings run out of Eliza Manningham Buller’s mother’s flat (43:02)
• Wrap-up and warning: “Don’t be an Arcadi Guk; join the declassified club instead!” (48:54–49:17)

---

This episode expertly combines gripping spy history, dark humor, colorful personalities, and insightful commentary on intelligence tradecraft and Cold War history—making it essential listening for espionage aficionados and those interested in the personalities shaping real-world power struggles.

Transcript

[David McCloskey]

For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter and discounted books. Join the Declassified club@the restisclassified.com Charlie Sheen is an icon of decadence. I lit the fuse and my life.

[Gordon Corera]

Turns into everything it wasn't supposed to be. He's going the distance.

[David McCloskey]

He was the highest paid TV star of all time. When it started to change, it was quick. He kept saying, no, no, no, I'm in the hospital now, but next week I'll be ready for the show. Now, Charlie sober, he's gonna tell you the truth.

[Gordon Corera]

How do I present this with any class?

[David McCloskey]

I think we're past that, Charlie. We're past that.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

Somebody call action. AKA Charlie Sheen. Now playing only on Netflix. At New Balance, we believe if you run, you're a.

[Gordon Corera]

However you choose to do it.

[David McCloskey]

Because when you're not worried about doing things the right way.

[Gordon Corera]

You'Re free to discover your way.

[David McCloskey]

And that's what running is all about.

[Gordon Corera]

Run your [e-mail] Running well I was.

[David McCloskey]

Down on my last dollar than I started saving Cause the bank said fiscal.

[Gordon Corera]

Restraint is what you're craving so I.

[David McCloskey]

Put my earnings in a high yield account Let the savings compound on the.

[Gordon Corera]

Amount I'm optimizing cash flow putting debt.

[David McCloskey]

In check now time is my friend.

[Gordon Corera]

And not a pain in the neck.

[David McCloskey]

And we've got a little cash to rebuild the old deck Boring money moves make kind of lame songs but they sound pretty sweet to your wallet PNC bank brilliantly boring since 1865. After the modest proportions and cleanliness of Copenhagen, London seemed a colossal mess. A car from the Soviet embassy met us, and our drive into the west end of the city was itself a revelation. I had frequently read that London was one of the richest cities in the world. But here was a vast, undistinguished urban sprawl with street after street of grimy old houses littered in the gutters and appalling traffic. Our plane in came at about six in the evening, so that by the time we reached the flat, our priorities were to put the girls to bed and settle in. Much as I wanted to ring the secret number I had carried in my head for the past four years, I had no chance to do so. I knew nothing about our surroundings and had no idea who might be watching us or from where. Well, welcome to the Rest is classified. I am David McCloskey.

[Gordon Corera]

And I'm Gordon Carrera.

[David McCloskey]

And those are the words of Oleg Gordievsky as he lands in One of the truly most awful cities in the world. Gordon. London. He's arrived in London. He is maybe questioning his decision to spy for the British. I can only imagine the wonderful reaction he may have had to landing in the paradise of Washington D.C. had he decided to offer himself up to the Americans. But Gordon, he has made this fateful choice years earlier to spy for British intelligence, and now he has arrived in. This is an amazing. Just an amazing coup for the British. He has arrived to work out of the London residentura for the KGB and pick up his spying once again for the British.

[Gordon Corera]

That's right. After being recruited in Denmark, he then paused in Moscow. Too dangerous to run him there. But he's got this prize of a job in London. And it is, you know, that description of London, it is slightly galling, I mean, but it is true. If anyone knows London. And the first time you go there, it is, you know, it's a kind of sprawling, chaotic place. What is crazy, of course, is it's his first time in this country, which he's agreed to spy for. He signed up for the Brits, and he's never set foot in Britain. And now he finally is arriving. It's the summer of 1982. He's kind of slightly shocked by it. Maybe it's worth just a moment to paint a picture of Britain in 1982, because it's. It's a pretty tumultuous time. Margaret Thatcher became prime minister in 1979, and she's doing, you know, effectively a kind of shock therapy to the British economy in which unemployment has skyrocketed up to 3 million. Industrial unrest is starting, and it's going to get bigger in the coming years. There's a lot of anger and social division, but equally, Margaret Thatcher's popularity had just skyrocketed because she's just. That spring won the Falklands War.

[David McCloskey]

Saw that on an episode of the Crown.

[Gordon Corera]

Very good. Entirely accurate. Exactly.

[David McCloskey]

To prepare for this podcast, I watched. I watched an entire season of the Crown, and I feel now like I'm just. I'm deep in the cesspool of early 1980s Great Britain.

[Gordon Corera]

She might have lost the election, but she's won a war, which always helps politically. So, yeah, that's the kind of world Oleg is finally arriving in, with his family, with his wife, with his two daughters. He goes to his flat, he's given one of these KGB flats. It's actually small and dark. It's not as nice as. Not just not as nice as Copenhagen, but not even as nice as his Moscow flats, which is saying something that's a little surprising. It is, but I think it's a Soviet flat in London rather than just a random London flat.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Gordon Corera]

It's in West London because the embassy is in Kensington Palace Gardens, and this, we should say, is a particularly posh bit of London. And where the Soviet embassy is or the Russian embassy and the Russian residents is pretty fancy. My only time in the. I once did go into the residency of the Russian ambassador in Britain. I was invited to kind of interview, meet a kind of cyber official, and they said, come to the residency. And I made the terrible mistake, David, of taking my phone with me.

[David McCloskey]

Oh, that does seem like a mistake.

[Gordon Corera]

Which was a terrible mistake. Looking back, this is a long time ago. A naive young journalist. Because as soon as I got out of the embassy, my phone was just playing up like crazy. Honestly. It was like, kind of asking me to re. Input my passwords. It was. You know, it was heating up, and I was like, yeah, I probably should have left that in the office. But that was in. That was in Kensington Palace Gardens.

[David McCloskey]

You were assaulted by every bit of malware the Russian Federation could throw at your phone in the span of an hour.

[Gordon Corera]

It's interesting. I do remember that. The ambassador's residence, same one in Oleg's time. And they're beautiful buildings, but they're also slightly dark and ominous and Soviet and slightly gloomy.

[David McCloskey]

That's just your prejudice against it might be.

[Gordon Corera]

With due apologies to the current Russian ambassador and his team, please write into the podcast if you wish to complain.

[David McCloskey]

Join the club.

[Gordon Corera]

Join the club.

[David McCloskey]

Join the declassified club.

[Gordon Corera]

I'm sure they already are.

[David McCloskey]

But in addition to. In addition to Oleg now being in this city, as you know, these are his words. Gordon street after street of grimy old houses, which is definitely not how I would think of most of London. He's in a viper pit of a KGB residentura also, which is different from his situation in Copenhagen.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, no, more Mikhail Lubimov, Smiley Mike in Copenhagen and kind of happy walks in the woods. London, the KGB station. The residentura in London is, as you said, it's a viper pit. It's full of kind of intrigue, backbiting egos. There's this figure called Arcadi Gook, who is the resident. He hates intellectuals, hates people who read books. You know, people like our Oleg. He spends his day. I love this image. He spends his days in his office with the head of the counterintelligence team, drinking vodka out of tumblers and gossiping and plotting especially against their own ambassador. That's like the one person they're really plotting against is the Soviet ambassador to London, if you're the KGB station chief. So it's not a happy place. And Gordievsky is this kind of young upstart at that point. He's the number two in line pr, which is political reporting. But on his second night in London, Gordievsky walks to nearby Notting Hill. I think those days it was still a bit rougher, but these days he'd be kind of mixing it with the tourists. Taking selfies of pastel coloured houses, doubles back, turns down roads, walks into a pub.

[David McCloskey]

The Portobello Road Market, Gordon.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, exactly. Probably get some bargains in those days. Down a side street and he finds a red phone box, what else? And he calls a number and this is the number he's memorised. And it's interesting this, a tape recording is waiting on the other end and the tape recording has the voice of his former case officer. So clearly they've got this set up because of course you don't know when he's going to call or when he's going to arrive, when he's going to be able to do it. So you can't have someone sitting by the phone waiting. You have an answering machine, I guess, effectively ready to go, you know, saying, hello, Oleg, welcome to London, thank you so much for calling. We look forward to seeing you. Meanwhile, take a few days to relax and settle in. Let's be in touch at the beginning of July.

[David McCloskey]

That's nice. Personal touch.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, it's a personal touch. He's a bit disappointed, I guess because he's not speaking to someone live, but it's the voice he remembers from Copenhagen. I mean, that must be amazing after all those years. So the next time he calls a few days later, it's routed to the 12th floor of Century House. That's MI6 headquarters was in Lambeth, south side of the river. Grimy building. Lots of people who worked in it thought it would not have been out of place in the Soviet Union. It was that grimy. Although as we've heard, London's pretty grimy at that time.

[David McCloskey]

Grimy street after grimy street in your spy headquarters is covered in grime.

[Gordon Corera]

I'll remind you of that next time you come to London, David. The call gets routed to the Russia team on the 12th floor and his, you know, former handler from Denmark answers and tells him they're going to meet the next day at the Holiday Inn on Sloane Street. Another fancy bit of kind of West London, kind of near Harrods department store.

[David McCloskey]

Also grime soaked.

[Gordon Corera]

Not grime soaked at those days. Sorry, Harrods, I think in those days. Even in those days. Although those days it was run by a dodgy boss. But there we go. So he arrives in the lobby of the Holiday Inn. He spots his old handler who's actually come back from abroad to meet him. There's also a woman. We'll come back to the woman in a minute. They get up when they see him, they go to the back of the hotel, then the hotel car park. He follows them, gets into the car and then they drive to a safe flat in Bayswater, also still in West London. It's got an underground car park which is useful and it's close to the Soviet Embassy, Kensington Palace Gardens. He could get there quickly in the future if he needs to, but hopefully not so close he's going to bump into people. Now he's introduced to the woman. It's the first time Oleg has met her, but she's known all about him for years. If you read his memoir, she's given a different name. I think it's Joan. Now, the woman in question was a woman called Valerie Petit, and she died in 2020, age 90. And at that point her name became public and her role in the Gordievsky case. And there's an obituary of her which kind of revealed it all. Maybe it's worth saying now there is a kind of custom within, well, not custom, you know, kind of a view, which is about not naming MI6 officers who are, you know, still alive. Unless, and we'll come back to this, they've outed themselves. And that will be the case with some of the people in this.

[David McCloskey]

Or they're the chief.

[Gordon Corera]

Well, they're the chief, exactly. The chief of MI6 is out. But while they're still alive, there's a kind of caution about naming them for operational reasons. But in Valerie's case, when she was died, her role got revealed. Interesting woman. Born 1929, goes to university, joins the Foreign Office, transfers to MI6. She is described as having a genteel, mild mannered, Home Counties exterior.

[David McCloskey]

Can you translate that for me?

[Gordon Corera]

I guess Home Counties is, you know, it's the nice bits around London, the slightly posh a bit. I mean, it's a kind of New England, well spoken, well to do manner. I think that's the closest way I can explain it. So this kind of outwardly looking like a genteel, well spoken woman, but steely determination beneath the surface Also deep expertise. I mean, one of the few women to rise up the ranks. There were women in MI6, but very few rise up the ranks in the Cold War period unless you were particularly capable, I think, you know, and particularly strong willed. It's a pretty sexist organization, old boys.

[David McCloskey]

Kind of environment, old boys club.

[Gordon Corera]

You know, women for many years were not allowed onto the kind of far stream of MI6. So there's a far stream and there's a general officer rank. And she would have come through the general officer rank rather than in the far stream. But from 1978, she's read in on the Gordievsky case as she's working as a deputy to what's called P5. And P5 is the designation for the person and the team running Soviet cases wherever they are, and they're up on the 12th floor of Century House. And she's also going to be the person who's tasked with coming up with an emergency escape plan from Moscow, which of course we'll come back to, and making sure it's maintained and up to date. Crucially, she's the kind of details person. She does the logistics and understands how to run the case. And people said she could command trust and affection. You know, it's interesting. There's going to be a deep bond between her and Oleg. And someone who knew both of them said to me just the other day when I was kind of researching this, if it was Hollywood, you would write the script differently with different looking actors. But it was a deep and personal commitment, but totally professional. And I guess what that person is saying is a kind of good point. If you're writing a Hollywood movie script, you'd have two young people who are glamorous and who would fall in love with each other and there'd be a kind of passionate affair. That is not what happened. That would be the Hollywood version of it. But there was this kind of really deep personal bond between the two of them. And she is tasked with keeping him alive and keeping him safe and making sure, you know, he survives as a very productive agent. And that is her role.

[David McCloskey]

And she's not his case officer, though it sounds like she's kind of managing, though a lot of the tradecraft around the case. Is that fair and that she is dealing with a lot of the details around. I don't know everything from, yeah, tradecraft, combo plan, tasking, what do we actually ask this guy? And how does that connect to sort of broader intelligence requirements? It sounds like, frankly, she's doing most of the work.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

From the MI6 side. Is that. Is that right?

[Gordon Corera]

She's not running him, but she's almost running and managing the case and the logistics around it. And Gordievsky is meeting her now for the first time. You know, he's been told they're going to meet once a month in this flat during his lunch hour. You know, he already starts telling people some of these secrets he's got burned in his head. You know, can you imagine? He's got so much from his time in Moscow. Now his handler is going to explain that he's now abroad, he's got a different posting, so he's going to pass Gordievsky over to a new case officer. So the person who's actually going to run him day to day, kind of always a delicate moment, you know, we've seen previously in the previous episodes that can go wrong. Relationship has got to work. But this one's going to work. Gordievsky's new case officer. Interesting person. He's only in his mid-30s, dark hair, starting to recede. A details man, bit like Gordievsky, natural empathy and speaks Russian, which meant Gordievsky took to him straight away. So this is another person I'm going to name, even though he's still around, because this was John Scarlett. John Scarlett may be known to people because he's eventually going to become the head of MI6 in the 2000s and rise to become the Chief C. He has never, I should say this clearly, has never officially, overtly confirmed that he was Gordievsky's case officer in London. He is not supposed to Gordievsky. So this is interesting. Has never been been officially acknowledged. This is crazy. As an agent of MI6, I mean, it's kind of wild. But they still hold to the neither confirm nor deny. We're not going to mention him. Even though so many books have been written about it, Even though Oleg writes a memoir about his relationship with MI6 and, you know, lots of people talk about it, so it's an oddity of the British system. But Scarlett has never confirmed this, but it's widely known and understood and his name is out there and Scarlet, you know, Dr. Sun, grown up in South London, good man, reads history at Oxford. Another good man before joining MI6.

[David McCloskey]

I thought you lived in Kensington, Gordon.

[Gordon Corera]

In a grubby flat in Kensington. I couldn't afford a grubby flat in Kensington, that's for sure. South London is more my world to.

[David McCloskey]

Get some real estate from the Soviet Embassy to the Russian Embassy to kind of make it work.

[Gordon Corera]

And Scarlet Is again, he's interesting. In the last episode we mentioned this guy Harry Shergold Shirgi, who is the person who's reconstituting and rebuilding MI6's Russia or Sov block operations, you know, against the Soviet Union. And Scarlett is one of his, one of the people he plucks. And Shoigi had this thing about he would look at new entrants and he would go, you are the right kind of person for SOV Block work. I'm going to take you and make you one of those people. And Shoegi had this amazing reputation and as a result the people who were kind of plucked to work on the SOV block became known slightly dismissively in MI6 as the SOG Block Master Race.

[David McCloskey]

They did not refer to themselves this way, is that right?

[Gordon Corera]

But that was how the others did. So you know the other bits of MI6 because they walked around like we're the guys who really know the secrets. We know secrets other people in MI6 are not allowed to know. We've been personally selected to kind of handle the hardest, toughest cases. And so the rest of them would kind of go, yeah, that's the softlock master race for you. Scarlet was one of those. And he's a details man, very precise, does his homework. You know, it's what you need to run KGB agents. He'd actually served as a young officer in Moscow, but had been dangled by a Soviet naval officer who'd really was all the time under the control of the KGB and he'd been identified. So that had meant his time in Moscow in the 70s was over. He's back in London already identified by the Soviets, but he speaks Russian. So he's a kind of perfect person to be a case officer For Gordievsky. It's a very good match. Oleg likes him immediately. Says of Scarlett, he was a first class intelligence officer but you know, full of emotion and sensitivity as the expression goes in Russian. He had a fine structure of soul.

[David McCloskey]

The highest compliment from a, from a Russian there. It's interesting. The agency had, has a similar kind of job profile to it Sounds like what John Scarlett was doing, which is officers call them like flyaway officers where they are sort of Russia hunting specialists who in most cases are probably known to the Russian services. But at sort of short notice could go out not to Russia, but to the third country to meet with a Russian developmental or asset to help with a recruitment, to help advise a local station, to I guess smooth over a misunderstanding. They combine this kind of deep Russia Expertise and obviously the language with the fact that they're actually not in Russia. Right. They're sort of mobile characters. So similar needs, I guess, in both services kind of created those types of roles.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah. And often it is easier to run agents outside of Russia, you know, because it's so hard to do them in the Soviet Union. So it's where you sometimes want your best people to work with them. And Gordievsky would come to these meetings. He'd arrive by car during his lunch hour with whatever documents he could take. Few sandwiches, bottle of beer waiting along the table. Tape recorder. They only had an hour or so. So Valerie would photograph and copy the documents that Gordievsky had bought while Scarlett and Gordievsky talked together in Russian to kind of speed things up and keep it accurate. Scarlett would do this for a couple of years. I mean, eventually, right at the end, he's going to be rotated out, although Valerie kind of remains as the person in the room doing logistics, and Oleg is just kind of spilling secrets at this point. And everyone who meets him says he was the best agent they ever dealt with. His discipline, his understanding, his motivation, everything about him is just so disciplined. He understands what they want, he's delivering it. You hear about other agents and they've got kind of crazy demands. And, you know, you go back to Penkovsky, who we talked about, who they're running in the early 60s, and he's, you know, they're having to find women for him, and he's saying he wants to do this and he wants to do that, and he's kind of wild and slightly emotional. Gordievsky is just focus. When I asked him about what those meetings were like you know, years later, he says they were intense and businesslike. And, you know, that kind of says it all. It's just kind of like, right, let's just focus on the intel.

[David McCloskey]

The fact that Gordievsky is extremely deliberate and not unhinged.

[Gordon Corera]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

In any of the typical ways is really important because they're not in Moscow. But there really are security worries and concerns even in London. Right. I mean, you have this massive residentura there. Presumably, they could be monitoring their own.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah. And that's part of their job is, you know, in the kgb, is to kind of keep an eye on their colleagues and see what they're up to rather than the suspicious signs. And, you know, one day when Oleg is kind of walking out of the flat, he sees the car of his resident Cardigut go past. Gordievsky thinks, has he spotted me? Is he gonna ask what I was doing and where I was, but nothing happens. And they're meeting about once a week. There's a bit of debate in MI6 is that too often with the Penkovsky case, there was this tension between getting what you can and taking too many risks by driving it too hard. But the reality is almost everything Gordievsky is saying in these meetings is classed as intelligence product. In other words, you know, it's a report. And what they will then do is there's going to be what's called a reports officer is going to get assigned to the case. And this is a very experienced, again, a kind of Russia hand who'd been in the Moscow, been indoctrinated in the case because of Moscow. And he's going to be the person who, who's basically looking at all the raw material Scarlett's bringing out and turning it into reports and then working out where those go around Whitehall and they're working through the night, Scarlett kind of works through the transcripts straight away. Then they go to the reports officer who's working through the night to get this stuff out and get it into the in trays of everyone who needs it. And they're actually trying doing it while not telling other colleagues in MI6 about what they're doing. They've got a cover story, they've got, if you like, kind of day jobs, these MI6 officers, about what they're supposed to be doing because they don't want the secret of Gordievsky to get around MI6 in case there's a leak or a mole. So it's intense for them as well. And you know, they will say there's never anything like it because it was just this kind of gusher of intelligence which is coming out.

[David McCloskey]

How tight was the circle inside sis, the people who actually knew about the case or even knew who Gordievsky was?

[Gordon Corera]

I think very few. I mean, you know, just within Russia House and then at the very top and even within Russia House, I think they were pretty careful about what it was because I think they know that that's where some of the danger lies. That's how cases get blown, is when word gets out. And I think, you know, one of the advantages they've got is Gordievsky's more emotionally stable, he's more disciplined. I always, like one person said to me, this is someone who sat with him and talked to him a lot and they said it was like there was someone in the control room of Gordievsky's own head kind of controlling him. And, you know, this person was like in the control room of his head, surveying the room, issuing instructions to Oleg himself about what to do. In other words, you know, there was always this kind of, like, kind of care and discipline about what he did. So he's always in control of his emotions. That discipline and keeping the circle tight is going to be vital because there are risks otherwise that, you know, their top agent could be compromised.

[David McCloskey]

Maybe there. With Gordievsky producing, let's take a break and when we come back, we'll see how a potential compromise might bring everything to a screeching halt.

[Gordon Corera]

And now a message from McAfee.

[David McCloskey]

I'm not a real kid and I'm not a real grandpa. We're deep fakes and we, we're making it harder to tell what's real online.

[Gordon Corera]

The good news?

[David McCloskey]

McAfee can help. McAfee's Scam Detector automatically identifies text and email scams and even deepfakes. So if you whippersnappers meet one of us, you'll know if they're faking it. They're not making it past us. Get award winning scam detection today. McAfee.com Keep it real. This episode is brought to you by Onnit. Want to know the secret to staying locked in? Onnit Alpha brand. This daily supplement is jam packed with clinically studied ingredients that support focus, memory and mental speed. Whether you're in your daily grind or deep in the zone, Onnit Alpha Brain.

[Gordon Corera]

Helps you stay razor sharp.

[David McCloskey]

Visit onnit.com for 15% off. Subscribe and save and see what your brain can really do.

[Gordon Corera]

This episode is brought to you by White Claw Surge. Nice choice hitting up this podcast. No surprises. You're all about diving into tastes everyone.

[David McCloskey]

In the room can enjoy.

[Gordon Corera]

Just like White Claw Surge, it's for celebrating those moments when connections have been made and the night's just begun.

[David McCloskey]

With bold flavors and 8% alcohol by.

[Gordon Corera]

Volume, Unleash the night. Unleash White Claw Surge. Please drink responsibly. Hard seltzer with flavors, 8% alcohol by volume. White Claw Seltzer Works Chicago, Illinois.

[David McCloskey]

Welcome back. Oleg Gordievsky is passing tranches of material to MI6 on KGB operations in London. And I guess Gordon here he is going to with this kind of new access start to give British intelligence all kind of insight into, I guess what will become some traitors in their own midst.

[Gordon Corera]

That's right and I think that is one of the important aspects of Gordievsky's intelligence. We'll look at some of the others further down the line. But one of the aspects is he's able to give this insight into what the KGB has been up to in Britain. Now some of that is history because he's been reading the files before he came out. And so for instance, he can clear up some mysteries. There's always been this question in the 60s about whether the head of MI5, Roger Hollis, had actually been a KGB agent. And Oleg says there's nothing in the files about that. So he's able to kind of clear up some issues. It doesn't answer the question definitively, but it helps clear it up. There's some more information about some other cases. There's an important politician in Norway, a rising star there who's going to be arrested and he's able to talk about what the KGB is up to in Britain at that moment. It's interesting because the KGB station is still busy, although it may be not as busy as it was in the 60s and not as successful. The resident is this arcade guk who we mentioned before.

[David McCloskey]

It's a very villainous name.

[Gordon Corera]

It is a villainous name. It's a perfect name for a KGB resident, isn't it? And he was exactly that. A kind of big, huge bloated lump of a man is how Gordievsky describes him. A bloated lump of a man with a mediocre brain but a large reserve of low cunning.

[David McCloskey]

I mean, is he the one who's drinking the vodka out of tumblers and sort of marauding around the residents who are plotting against his bloody. Against the ambassador.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, exactly. He barely speaks English. He hates being in London. He's also paranoid. He thinks everything happening in the world is a plot by MI6 and the CIA. He's so paranoid he orders his staff not to use the underground, the tube, because he said that behind the advertisement panels along the walls of underground stations were glass fronted booths in which sat members of MI5 spying on the KGB. And it's just like he's a KGB.

[David McCloskey]

Villain out of central casting really for a spy novel. Like as we're talking about him, it seems so stereotypical that actually I think if I wrote this character in a book, someone would be like, come on, this is a cartoon. This is too much, this is too much.

[Gordon Corera]

That's him. And of course he dislikes Gordievsky because Gordievsky is cultured, intellectual and also Gordievsky's kind of, you know, young guy on the rise. It's a kind of paranoid embassy. It's claustrophobic. Guck's windows have special Jamming devices and little radio loudspeakers installed in the space between the double glazing to try and deal with attempts by Britain to spy on them. You know, there's a metal line conference room in which they could meet free of bugs, which gets incredibly hot. You just get this feeling of a kind of nasty, dark, intense place. And Gordievsky is obviously able to tell MI6 all about it, what people are up to. HE CHOKES To Scarlett, you are an extra member of the KGB residency. In other words, you're as good as a member of the residency. You know all about it, you know the gossip and everything else, which is, you know, I kind of think, I'm not sure if as an MI6 officer you want that to be your description.

[David McCloskey]

Honorary.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, honorary girl on the KGB.

[David McCloskey]

Do you think that MI6 was surprised at how inactive the residentura was? Because it does seem a little bit like there isn't some massive roster of British citizens that are working for the kgb. Right. It kind of seems like vodka swilling. Arcadia Gook is the captain of a rather unimpressive ship at this point in time.

[Gordon Corera]

I think the cupboard is pretty bare for the KGB in terms of agents and what successes there are kind of exaggerated. There's only like half a dozen or so really good agents and a lot of them are focused on scientific and technical intelligence. You know, there's not a kind of Kim Philby at this point, lots of paper agents, you know, and they're on the books to make officers look busy to Moscow. Ever heard of that happening in an intelligence agency, David?

[David McCloskey]

It would never happen at the Central Intelligence Agency, Gordon. But I've heard, I've heard of it happening in other lesser intelligence agencies.

[Gordon Corera]

Of course. Of course. There's also this interesting thing where the gradations of CIA office, CIA officers, KGB agents.

[David McCloskey]

Doesn't it just feel better to say those three letters, Gordon?

[Gordon Corera]

Always, always, I spent too long, too much time with you. Because what they've got is you've got a fully paid up agent, but then you've got kind of categories below that where you're trying to recruit someone, you're trying to develop them and then you've got this level of what are called confidential contacts, which is a level below being a recruited agent. This is interesting. And this would be one of the kind of slightly complicated things about Gordievsky's work because confidential contacts are someone the KGB might take out for lunch, they might have a gossip with, you know, write up a report about it kind of stuff. Diplomats and Journalists do. That person might not know that the person they're meeting is a KGB officer or that it's going to be written up. Some might receive a fat envelope with cash now and again.

[David McCloskey]

Seems like an indication that, which would.

[Gordon Corera]

Be an indication, but often, you know, the KGB officer is reporting back. Well, I've got this confidential contact, his name's Gordon at the BBC. I'm having lunch with him every week and you know, we're going out for a few more lunches and I'm sure he'll be useful one day. But he's not quite an agent yet. But, you know, I just need to have another fancy lunch with him. There's an element in which they're playing a game, the KGB officers, because they want to make it look like they're busy and they might be about to recruit someone and they frankly want a nice fancy lunch. So they're slightly exaggerating and inflating the contacts and putting them down as confidential contacts in order to kind of make themselves look good.

[David McCloskey]

The reality in this period, I think it's still true today for the most part, is that a case officer, be they inside the kgb, sis, the CIA, the incentive is really around quantity of reports and recruitments, even fake ones and scare quotes as opposed to quality. And obviously there's a balance. But I think that's why you get these kind of behaviors, right, is like when you get down to the level of the case officer, they have a tremendous incentive to just jack up the numbers and not necessarily to spend a huge amount of time and energy on just a small number of potential really juicy developmentals or confidential contacts who could turn into recruited assets. Right. So the numbers game, I think it's really part of the business.

[Gordon Corera]

Right.

[David McCloskey]

And kind of embedded in the way that, that the incentives are structured for a lot of these just, you know, line case officers.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, I think that's right. Oleg is going to kind of reveal all these different confidential contacts and the different nature of them. Some of them, I have to say it's going to be quite controversial because there are a series of left wing politicians and union members who are alleged to have had contact with the kgb. And one example which will become particularly sensitive, but I think it's worth talking through, is that it turns out the editor of a left wing newspaper called Tribune back in the 50s and 60s was in contact with the KGB. That's what Oleg is going to say. Come back to this. The problem is that by the time you get to the early 1980s, that left wing journalist is now the leader of the Labour Party, Michael Foote. Now, there's real ambiguity about the nature of that contact. It goes back to this point about, you know, is a lunch, what's past, you know, what's the nature of it. Michael Foote, of course, has no access to any secrets, he's not betraying any secrets, and he seems to have stopped meeting around the time of the Prague Spring and became much more anti Soviet. But when this later comes out, through Erdog's memoir, which we've mentioned, Michael Foot will sue for libel of being accused of being an agent, because that's what the headline is going to be, and he's going to win that libel case. So that gives you an example of just how sensitive and complicated these relationships are and what was the true nature of it. So there's no allegation that Michael Foot was a spy or a conscious agent, you know, in the. In that sense. But of course, in the early 80s, even that claim from Oleg, which is going into MI6, that this person was a contact in some way of the KGB. Now, that is super sensitive because it's.

[David McCloskey]

1982, potential political ammunition, right?

[Gordon Corera]

There is a general election coming up in which this person is a candidate to be Prime Minister. And of course, the question is, you know, who do you tell about this? What do you tell to people? Now, Ben McIntyre's book should credit that Spy and the Traitor, which details the Gordievsky case brilliantly. Ben, in his book says that MI6 tell the cabinet Secretary about this fact of this contact, but then the Cabinet Secretary does not tell the Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher. The reason is the fear of it being used politically, the fear that someone will go, okay, there was some contact here. We're going to use that to smear him in the election campaign. And so it's kept within a very tight circle, this intelligence about whatever that contact was. I don't know. I mean, to me it feels reminiscent of, you know, we won't go to too much detail, but of recent questions about dossiers, politicians, contact with Moscow all feels quite redolent of the ability to use contacts to attack someone and the kind of the sensitivities around it and how you interpret contacts between someone in a foreign government or the KGB when it's not always clear what it was. So I think it's very interesting in that sense in the Gordievsky case.

[David McCloskey]

But there's also going to be, and I guess this is really the sort of crown jewels of what an asset like Gordievsky might provide he'll actually come to his handlers in MI6 with a pretty shocking revelation about someone inside British Intelligence who might actually be working for the Russians.

[Gordon Corera]

That's right. This is one of the crucial contributions of Gordievsky, because he's going to stop British Intelligence being penetrated by a mole and also in that process, probably save his own skin, because in June 1983, Arkady Gook, our big hulking resident, sloshes.

[David McCloskey]

Vodka all over him as he, the tumbler, is thrust at Gordievsky.

[Gordon Corera]

And he says, oleg, would you like to see something? This is my Russian accent, by the way. David, would you like to see something exceptional? Gordievsky goes, yes. And he shows Gordievsky a British document outlining the order of battle. In other words, the makeup of the KGB and GRU military intelligence station in London. So it names who is suspected and who is known of being a KGB officer in London. And it's clearly a British document. And Oleg can see his own name is down as more or less identified. In other words, whoever wrote this thinks he is, but isn't sure. And it looks like it comes from MI5, and particularly K Branch. And K Branch is the counterespionage branch tasked with spying on the Soviet Union and on its embassies in London, at least. Their job is to kind of create that order of battle of the the Soviet Embassy in London understand it. And Guck reveals to Gordievsky it's been pushed through the letterbox of his home. It's the second packet to arrive. You know, the first came on Easter Sunday, which is interesting because someone obviously picked that, thinking less surveillance. And the letter accompanying that suggested a dead drop at the cistern of a cinema toilet on Oxford Street. Classy. And was signed cobra, which was the name Stalin had used before the revolution. So someone has tried twice now to pass MI5 documents to the Soviet residents. So Gook, our man Gook.

[David McCloskey]

This is a big win here.

[Gordon Corera]

This is.

[David McCloskey]

This should be great, Senor Gook.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, yeah. Guk should be like, this is great. I've got the chance to recruit a British intelligence official. You know, a serve and counterintelligence official should be party poppers.

[David McCloskey]

Champagne seems obvious to me, but I guess, again, anytime in this story, pretty much an intelligence officer is handed a gift, they immediately suspect that they're being played. Right, obviously. And he's paranoid.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, we've already established Guk is paranoid. Everyone's spying at him on the underground. So he thinks it's a trap. He thinks it's a dangle. He thinks Surveillance is everywhere, so he's convinced that his house must be under constant surveillance, so it would be impossible for someone to do this and not be spotted, so it must be part of a game. And he also thinks, well, this guy is being clever, passing on a staff list of the KGB in London. But of course, you know, this is stuff that I know already, so it's chicken feed. In other words, it's stuff that is being given by MI5 as part of the dangle, which can be compromised without any fear. But actually the person who's doing it turns out thought, no, I'm giving this because you can know that this is true, because it's your story.

[David McCloskey]

It actually doesn't seem like you'd have to think that hard to get to the conclusion.

[Gordon Corera]

You just hope to. But alas, poor older Cardi Gurk. You all almost feel sorry for the KGB resident in London at this point. But Gordievsky, of course, for him, this is terrifying.

[David McCloskey]

This is like the nightmare.

[Gordon Corera]

This is the nightmare for an agent, isn't it? Is that there is someone within the organization you are spying for who wants to turn traitor and is trying to get in contact with your service. So he immediately calls the number for an emergency meeting. He goes to see MI6. And it's so interesting because he goes, okay, you know, what game are you playing with? Arcade. What's your game? What's the trap? And it's Valerie who goes, I don't know anything about a game. There's no game in progress.

[David McCloskey]

Appreciate that your Russian mind immediately went to a complex game of four dimensional chess between us and the resident. But in fact, it's actually much more alarming than that.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, so she's like, no, nothing in play. And so now they know they've got a huge problem because someone is offering themselves up as a mole. And what do you need? You need a mole hunt, David.

[David McCloskey]

You do. But how can you. So this is the problem though, for MI6, right, is they know that the mole is inside MI5. Right. And so it does seem very delicate of how you sort of broach this information to MI5. And I presume at this point, does MI5 know that Gordievsky is working for MI6?

[Gordon Corera]

Well, what's interesting is a tiny number of MI5 officers know that he's their agent. Because again, someone has to know, because they have to know not to try and recruit Gordievsky, right. Or to. Or to do something which is going to kind of interfere with MI6 running him. So a tiny group within the counter Soviet team need to know that. And of course, that is then the key to the mole hunt, isn't it? Because the person offering the information, the mole, clearly does not know that Gordievsky is an agent for MI6, because if they did, there's no way they would go and offer material to the embassy and to Gook, knowing that there's a mole within there who could blow them, which is what happens.

[David McCloskey]

Or they could have been waiting to sell the more primo stuff. I don't know. It's a risk you're willing to take if you're the MI6 team, because you actually really, someone's got to run the mole hunt, right?

[Gordon Corera]

And so you can be pretty sure that that Small number of MI5 officers who are in on the secret of Gordievsky are not the mole, because if so, they wouldn't have gone to Arkady Gook and kind of tried to try to recruit him. So what you've got is a tiny, tiny group of people who can run that mole hunt and who you can be confident about. And it's a good example, isn't it, about why things are need to know. Because actually, if Gordievsky's identity had been gossiped about within MI5 around even K Branch, the counterespionage team, it's over for him, you know, because you could imagine the mole would then go to Arcade Gook and maybe taking the gambler, it's not him going, you've got a mole. And interestingly enough, one of those in on the secret assigned to work the case, none other than Eliza Manningham Buller.

[David McCloskey]

Friend of the pod.

[Gordon Corera]

Friend of the pod. For those who haven't listened, she was a guest on our declassified members club pod. That episode is still there for people to listen to, isn't it? It's one episode where she talks about 77 and the July 7 attacks, but another in which she talks about her career within MI5, including this mole hunt. So there for club members.

[David McCloskey]

And we should say I immediately led with friend of the Pod. But the primary distinction is that she ran MI5 for many years. And then the second tier distinction would be friend of the pod. I think you could argue which should go first.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah. But yes, she is later can become head of MI5, amazing career, but she's going to actually hold meetings in her mother's flat because they can't use the MI5 office to meet. And, you know, at one point Eliza's sisters asked to come round and they're told they can't because they're church meetings in the flat, you know, and one of the sisters complains that the mother had become very religious. Cause there's meetings every night, you know, so they're using this base in her flat to kind of run a mole hunt. The small team become known, weirdly, as the Nadgers. I think she told us that.

[David McCloskey]

The Nadgers. Yeah.

[Gordon Corera]

Which is a kind of weird name. I think that. I think you come up with, like, weird names and their code name for the traitor, whoever he is, or the wannabe traitor is Puck. I think you could change one letter and you could get an expletive which might explain how they feel about the person. But the suspicions, I mean, it's a good story in itself. And maybe we do a separate pod on the guy himself. Cause he's really interesting. But, you know, the suspicions, based on the documents that have been passed to Arkady Gook, narrow it down into MI5 who had access to those documents, and particularly to one officer called Michael Bettany. He's an oddball, but is that the.

[David McCloskey]

Reason they focus on him? Because.

[Gordon Corera]

No, I think it's like, it seems.

[David McCloskey]

Like we got 50 people and then we have this one weirdo in the group and let's throw the resources at him because he's bizarre, because he's a bit odd. Because he's weird.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, Well, I think it was down to like three people or something like that. And then everyone you can imagine to go like, let's look at Bettany first. Because he's. I mean, he is a real oddball. I mean, kind of working class background, brilliant at languages, goes to Oxford. But then, I mean, I think Ben McIntyre mentioned this, but he goose stepped around the college quad and played Hitler's speeches. And Ben quotes a fellow student saying of him, he dressed like a bank manager and dreamt of being a storm trooper. I mean, that's kind of weird. And then goes quite hard left. But he still somehow gets tapped up to join MI5, which is kind of weird, isn't it? I don't know.

[David McCloskey]

That is weird. We talked to the HR people about why that decision was made. So he was playing Hitler's speeches and then he goes hard left.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, I think he's a bit all over the place.

[David McCloskey]

He's on his own journey.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, that's the nice way of putting it. Gets sent to work on Northern Ireland to run informant and survives a car bomb. He's Catholic, so I think that's quite hard for him. He kind of seems to have traumatized him, that experience. Ben says he lives alone with a plastic figure of Madonna. Russian icons, Nazi war medals and pornography.

[David McCloskey]

All the essentials.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah.

[David McCloskey]

Good grief, that is a strange list.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't see any of that on your wall behind you from looking at the picture. No, none. None of the above. And this is all while working in cable branch of MI5. I think there's been a vetting failure. MI5. I think we could say that.

[David McCloskey]

We've covered those extensively on the podcast.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, Cloud spooks.

[David McCloskey]

Another one.

[Gordon Corera]

So immediately, you know, they start talking to his colleagues and it looks like, you know, he's suspicious. They follow him, they have his house broken into, looking for evidence. They don't find anything. Cause everything's well hidden. He's getting a bit more desperate because of course, Arcadi Gook, the Fool has turned down this kind of.

[David McCloskey]

Yeah, he hasn't done anything with these.

[Gordon Corera]

So he's like dropping letters, he's calling up Arkady. He's like, like calling him up, going, hello, with MI5 officer. You know, he just can't believe he's being ignored. It's crazy. And anyway, he then mentions to a colleague that he's planning to go to Vienna. And this kind of worries the mole hunters because they kind of go, they know that there's a known former KGB officer in London who's in Vienna, and they think he's going to go. So the order is, let's interrogate him before he goes. Has to be done carefully because obviously you can't tip off the fact that Gordievsky is providing information. He's on a training course, asked to come to a meeting. The idea, it's interesting, is to talk him into a confession. It's back to that. Problem is, they haven't got any evidence, you know, and he's not actually been arrested, so he's not being read his rights, he's not got a lawyer, but they're just trying to kind of talk him into confessing. I mean, that's their best option. And they lay out the evidence before him. There's a photograph of Cook's door to suggest Bettany might have been photographed because it was under surveillance. It wasn't. And then he slowly starts to crack. He starts to talk about hypothetical political spies who might have done things, kind of. He says, maybe if someone had done something, they'd have done it like this. He expresses some sympathy for Kim and George, that being Kim Philby and George Blake, who he clearly refers to in first name terms. And then he's kept Overnight in a flat. He asked for a bottle of whiskey.

[David McCloskey]

Why doesn't he just leave?

[Gordon Corera]

So I think they've given him the impression that he can't when he actually can, because I guess if he walks, he's saying I'm guilty. I agree. I think he's an oddball. I don't think there's any other way around it. The next morning, I like this detail that Liza cooks him breakfast.

[David McCloskey]

I wonder what she made for him. We didn't ask her. We should ask her.

[Gordon Corera]

I don't know. Do you think it's full English? I'd like to think I think it's a full English breakfast. Black pudding. Do you eat your black pudding? I don't eat black pudding.

[David McCloskey]

Whenever I've had an English breakfast, I leave the black pudding.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, I'm sorry. Traditionalists out there. But he doesn't eat the breakfast. But he's had the whisky. He. He cracks and he eventually says, you know, I think I. I ought to make a clean breast of it. And he confesses. So thanks to Oleg, he has been vital as well as our Cody Cook's incompetence, you know, in preventing, you know, a new philbe, a new penetration of British intelligence. Bethany will go on trial and be sentenced for 23 years. He actually died only back in 2018 after he was released from prison from alcohol. But, you know, at the time, it's a pretty close shave for Oleg and, you know, pretty important victory.

[David McCloskey]

Well, maybe there, Gordon. With Oleg having delivered the goods, I guess saved his own skin in the process. Let's break. When we come back next time, we'll see how Oleg, I think, makes probably his biggest contribution to Britain. Enter the Cold War by really turning down the heat of the Cold War.

[Gordon Corera]

But don't forget, don't be an Arcadi gook. Don't.

[David McCloskey]

Don't take this offer and just ignore it.

[Gordon Corera]

Yeah, there is an offer. There is an offer coming through your letterbox and that offer is to join the declassified club@the restisclassified.com and hear from Eliza Manningham Buller. Lots of other fascinating spies hear this whole series. So don't be an Arcadi cook. Be a Oleg Gordievsky and join the club. The rest isclassified.com.

[David McCloskey]

We'Ll see you.

[Gordon Corera]

See you next time.

[David McCloskey]

Trip Planner by Expedia.

[Gordon Corera]

You were made to outdo your holiday, your hammocking and your pooling. We were made to help organize the competition.

[David McCloskey]

Expedia made to travel.