Former Head of MI5: 7/7, Putin, and Al-Qaeda (Eliza Manningham-Buller)

Summary

The Rest Is Classified: Former Head of MI5 - 7/7, Putin, and Al-Qaeda (Eliza Manningham-Buller) Released on July 17, 2025

Hosts: David McCloskey and Gordon Corera

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Rest Is Classified, hosts David McCloskey and Gordon Corera delve into an exclusive interview with Eliza Manningham-Buller, the former head of MI5. Manningham-Buller provides an insider’s perspective on pivotal events in modern British intelligence, including her encounters with Vladimir Putin, the aftermath of the 7/7 bombings in London, and the intricate connections to Al-Qaeda.

Meeting with Vladimir Putin

The discussion opens with Manningham-Buller recounting her face-to-face meeting with Vladimir Putin in the immediate aftermath of the 7/7 bombings.

• [03:49] Eliza Manningham-Buller: “He was clearly hostile to me and said something like, it's the duty of people like you to stand between the terrorist and their victim. And you failed. So it wasn't a very successful meeting.”

Manningham-Buller describes Putin as having “sinister looking eyes” ([04:27]), and reflects on the strained nature of their encounter. She highlights the tension and the accusatory stance Putin took during their briefing on the preliminary state of the investigation.

Aftermath of the 7/7 Bombings

The conversation shifts to the immediate consequences of the 7/7 attacks and the subsequent actions taken by intelligence agencies.

• [04:47] Interviewer: "But it's amazing, isn't it? A year after basically coming down, talking to the Prime Minister, meeting you in a Cobra, he's ordering polonium attack on the streets of London, involved in it."

Manningham-Buller speculates on the audacity and risks associated with such attacks:

• [04:56] “I always assume, I have no evidence of this, that it was such a risky thing to do in some respects, that I think they must have done it somewhere else, had it not been noticed, so that they could say it's safe to do this in London.”

She further considers the possibility that similar attacks could have been orchestrated elsewhere to avoid detection, reflecting on the strategic calculations behind high-profile terrorist acts.

Reflections on the 21/7 Plot

The hosts and Manningham-Buller discuss the attempted 21/7 bombing, which employed similar explosive devices to those used in the 7/7 attacks.

• [05:54] Manningham-Buller shares her sentiments: “Well, first of all, you always know you'll never prevent everything. I think the number that are prevented where it's been made public vastly outweighs those which are not.”

She expresses a sense of gloom surrounding the plot, acknowledging that while no lives were lost, a repeated occurrence of such attempts would have severely strained MI5's capabilities.

• [06:41] Interviewer: “Fortunate, but it must have been a thought inside MI5. What if this is going to happen every two weeks?”

• [06:47] Eliza Manningham-Buller: “Exactly. And we were quite relieved when two weeks later in August, the date passed without anything happening.”

Linkages to Al-Qaeda

The episode explores the broader connections between these terrorist plots and Al-Qaeda’s influence.

• [07:00] Manningham-Buller notes, "Al Qaeda is an inspiration. It doesn't have to direct things. I mean, the fact that Mohamed Sadiq Khan went back to Afghanistan, clearly there was some connection there."

She underscores the autonomous nature of various terrorist cells, indicating that while direct orders from Al-Qaeda might not always be present, the ideological inspiration remains a driving force.

Impact of the Iraq War on Radicalization

A significant portion of the interview addresses the ramifications of the Iraq War on global terrorism and radicalization.

• [07:26] Interviewer: “I think you've spoken previously that you think the Iraq war did contribute to that radicalisation and that you'd said that before the war as well.”

Manningham-Buller concurs, linking the Iraq conflict to increased terrorist activity:

• [07:33] “I think at MI5, I think that before the war the JRC had, the government, the Joint Intelligence Committee, that there'd be a likely increase in terrorism. [...] We know that it was a contributor because of the video wills we recovered, including the following year, the airlines plot Operation Avert, where people particularly instanced this. And yes, it was a contributor.”

She reflects on the challenges faced by intelligence agencies in anticipating and mitigating the surge in terrorism post-conflict.

Legacy and Transformation of MI5

The conversation concludes with insights into how the events discussed have shaped MI5’s evolution.

• [08:41] Eliza Manningham-Buller: “I'm not sure legacy is the right word because throughout its history any organization is affected by what it has to deal with. [...] We were, as I mentioned already in the middle of a big expansion as a result of 9/11. And I believe the organization is self-critical and constantly trying to get better at what it does.”

She emphasizes MI5’s ongoing commitment to adapting and improving its strategies in response to evolving threats.

• [08:25] Interviewer: “As you kind of come to the end of this section on 2005, how much do you think it changed MI5? I mean, what was the legacy of the attacks for it as an organization?”

Manningham-Buller responds by highlighting the continuous drive for enhancement within MI5, acknowledging that while no agency can achieve absolute security, the pursuit of better intelligence and preventive measures remains paramount.

Conclusion

Eliza Manningham-Buller’s candid reflections offer a nuanced understanding of the complexities faced by intelligence agencies in the post-9/11 world. From high-stakes interactions with global leaders like Vladimir Putin to grappling with the persistent shadow of Al-Qaeda-inspired terrorism, the episode provides a comprehensive look into the challenges and triumphs of MI5 under her leadership.

For listeners seeking the full depth of this enlightening interview, access is available through the Declassified Club at therestisclassified.com.

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Notable Quotes:

• Eliza Manningham-Buller on Putin: “[Putin] was clearly hostile to me and said something like, it's the duty of people like you to stand between the terrorist and their victim. And you failed.” [03:49]

• On Preventing Terrorism: “You always know you'll never prevent everything. I think the number that are prevented where it's been made public vastly outweighs those which are not.” [05:54]

• Impact of the Iraq War: “We know that it was a contributor because of the video wills we recovered, including the following year, the airlines plot Operation Avert.” [07:33]

• MI5’s Commitment: “The organization is self-critical and constantly trying to get better at what it does.” [08:41]

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This episode serves as a vital resource for enthusiasts of espionage, intelligence operations, and contemporary security challenges, offering rare insights from one of MI5’s most influential leaders.

Transcript

[Host]

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[Host]

Hello listeners, we've got something very exciting for you today that we are absolutely thrilled about. What you're about to hear is an extract from this week's bonus episode, which is an interview that we conducted with Eliza Manningham Buller, the former head of MI5, in which, among many other fascinating topics, she discusses her face to face meeting with none other than Vladimir Putin in the immediate aftermath of the 77 bombings and the outrageous way that he behaved in some of the meetings afterward. Now, every week, our members get exclusive access to bonus episodes just like this. So far, we've had interviews with someone on the team who hunted Bin Laden when Iran Israel was all over the news. We spoke to a former CIA officer who worked basically just on the Iran target. We've done episodes where we answer your questions, done film reviews, including on Zero Dark Thirty, then a live stream, and coming up, we've got interviews with two former two former directors of the CIA members also get access to discounted book lists, special prize draws, early access to episodes, ad free listening and a whole lot more. So here's our interview with Eliza. If you want to hear the full episode, just sign [e-mail].

[Interviewer]

One of the things mentioned before we start recording is that you actually met Vladimir Putin around this time, because he'd been in Scotland, hadn't he, for the G8 summit with the Prime Minister at Gleneagles, which this attack might have been timed for that summit. It's one of the possibilities, isn't it? But then you met him shortly afterwards, is that right?

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

Yes, he was still in London and he came to Cobra and the senior person in the Met who was dealing with this, and I gave him a briefing on the state of the investigation, which was at that stage pretty preliminary, and he was clearly hostile to me and said something like, it's the duty of people like you to stand between the terrorist and their victim. And you failed. So it wasn't a very successful meeting.

[Interviewer]

What did you say back? I suppose it's hard to argue back.

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

I was being very polite.

[Interviewer]

Is that the only time you met him?

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

What was your impression of him?

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

Rather sinister looking eyes. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And I guess it wasn't that long after that that he killed Zaleksandr Litvinenko.

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

It was within a year, and I can't remember which year it was. He said that the greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the collapse of the Soviet Union. Which is sort of breathtaking comment when you think about it. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But it's amazing, isn't it? A year after basically coming down, talking to the Prime Minister, meeting you in a Cobra, he's ordering polonium attack on the streets of London, involved in it.

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

I always assume, I have no evidence of this, that it was such a risky thing to do in some respects, that I think they must have done it somewhere else, had it not been noticed, so that they could say it's safe to do this in London. We've done it somewhere else.

[Interviewer]

Oh, I see. Used below.

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

I don't know that, but I've often wondered that, because otherwise it's quite a dangerous.

[Interviewer]

I mean, there've been rumors that other people in Europe or even in Russia died with symptoms similar to Litvinenko. So the assumption is that they thought they could do it without it being traced.

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

I think so.

[Host]

We also spent some time on the pod talking about 21.7 the couple weeks after 7 7, this other attempt using very similar explosive devices. We talked about it this way as maybe inside MI5 potentially being more of a shock in some ways, maybe a sense of, well, we didn't have the intelligence to prevent 7 7, but maybe we should have been able to prevent 21 7. I'm curious for your thoughts on how it felt and whether it was maybe worse in some ways.

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

Well, first of all, you always know you'll never prevent everything. I think the number that are prevented where it's been made public vastly outweighs those which are not. My recollection of 217 was a feeling of gloom. Nobody died. There was none of the tragedy of 7 7. But I do recall feeling that if this happened every two weeks, we would be really stretched to deal with it. Of course, all the perpetrators were eventually arrested and went to prison. So to that extent it was a successful operation, even from the terrorist point of view. The fact the detonators didn't work was.

[Interviewer]

Fortunate, but it must have been a thought inside MI5. What if this is going to happen every two weeks?

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

Exactly. And we were quite relieved when two weeks later in August, the date passed without anything happening.

[Interviewer]

Without anything happening. Eventually it does look like there is a link back to Pakistan and to Al Qaeda in both of those plots, but that took some time to become clear.

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

I think that was after I retired. That came. Al Qaeda is an inspiration. It doesn't have to direct things. I mean, the fact that Mohamed Sadiq Khan went back to Afghanistan, clearly there was some connection there. But we had plenty of plots which were inspired by the narrative which Bin Laden and Al Qaeda were promoting. And if they can self start, they didn't need to be directed.

[Interviewer]

And I think you've spoken previously that you think the Iraq war did contribute to that radicalisation and that you'd said that before the war as well.

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

I think at MI5, I think that before the war the JRC had, the government, the Joint Intelligence Committee, that there'd be a likely increase in terrorism. It doesn't follow that because there might be an increase in terrorism, it's necessarily wrong to do what you're planning to do. But we know that it was a contributor because of the video wills we recovered, including the following year, the airlines plot Operation Avert, where people particularly instanced this. And yes, it was a contributor.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, because it was politically difficult at the time, I think, for government to acknowledge that.

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

Except that I would point out that in 2006 I made a speech where I said this with the approval of the government, because as you know, public servants don't make public speeches without the approval of the government. It'd be chaotic.

[Interviewer]

Was that that one in London at Queen Mary's or was that a different one? Yes, I remember being there for that one long time ago. So, I mean, as we kind of, I guess come to the end of this section on 2005, how much do you think it changed MI5? I mean, what was the legacy of the attacks for it as an organisation?

[Eliza Manningham Buller]

I'm not sure legacy is the right word because throughout its history any organization is affected by what it has to deal with. And when I joined the organisation, height of the Cold War, the main preoccupation was what the KGB and the Warsaw Pact allies were doing. And then it preoccupation became terrorism and it moves on. We were, as I mentioned already in the middle of a big expansion as a result of 9 11. And I believe the organization is self critical and constantly trying to get better at what it does. And so I think one of the implications and results of 77 is this. How can we get better? How can we give government greater confidence of covering more of the problem? How can we maximise the chances of preventing this happening again? How can we gear up? But anybody who's involved in intelligence knows that there's no such thing as 100% security. And it's deeply disappointing when this sort of thing happens. More than disappointing, it's appalling. But you know that there could be another attack next week which has not been seen, has not been anticipated. And so the imperative to continue to try and improve, to adapt to the threat, to adapt to new technology, to widespread encryption, all these things are challenges.

[Host]

Thanks for listening. To hear the full episode, just sign [e-mail].