Why the Former Head of MI6 Has No Regrets About Iraq

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Classified

Episode: Why the Former Head of MI6 Has No Regrets About Iraq
Release Date: May 19, 2026
Host: David McCloskey
Co-host: Gordon Corera
Guest: Sir Richard Dearlove (Former Chief of MI6, 1999–2004)

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Episode Overview

In this special episode, David McCloskey and Gordon Corera sit down with Sir Richard Dearlove, the former head of Britain's Secret Intelligence Service (SIS/MI6), to discuss his career, reflections on major global events—including Iran, Iraq, and the Cold War—and what it means to run covert operations at the highest levels. Dearlove shares insider stories about intelligence partnerships, the nuances of international conflict, and personal anecdotes from the world of espionage. The conversation blends historical perspective, current affairs, and classic tales from the shadowy world of spies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Reflections on the UK, US, and the Current Iran Conflict

[03:03 – 07:23]

• UK’s Role in Current Middle East Conflict
  • Dearlove remarks that the UK could have supported the US more robustly over the recent conflict with Iran, even without joining militarily.
  • He criticizes the UK's careful legal distinction between "defensive" and "offensive" support as "a little bit esoteric".
  • Quote (Sir Richard Dearlove, 03:36):
    "I think it could have been more supportive of the United States in this conflict without becoming directly involved. I mean, it made this esoteric distinction between defensive and offensive action, which I thought was a little bit esoteric."
• Inevitability of Iran Crisis
  • Dearlove states that the tension with Iran is a long-running issue, predating his retirement in 2004.
  • He points to the intransigent nature of the Iranian regime and notes:
    Quote (Sir Richard Dearlove, 04:55):
    "I'm not at all surprised by what's happened. And I think it was inevitable that given the intransigent nature of the theocratic regime in Iran, that this would eventually lead to a confrontation."
• On the Outcome of ‘Operation Epic Fury’ and the Future of Iran
  • Dearlove predicts the likely implosion of the Iranian regime, referencing his forecast on his own podcast that 2026 would be the year of regime change in Iran.
  • While Iran may still have enough fissile material for a device or two, the infrastructure needed for ongoing weapons production has been destroyed.
  • Key to future stability is recovering the remaining fissile material, ideally under a new, more compliant regime.

The UK-US Intelligence "Special Relationship"

[07:23 – 09:32]

• Institutional Depth of the Relationship
  • Despite policy disagreements and changes in governmental leadership, the intelligence partnership between the UK and US remains strong and deeply institutionalized.
  • Dearlove likens periods of tension to “storms that will pass,” emphasizing the enduring framework:
    Quote (Sir Richard Dearlove, 07:39):
    "It's so heavily institutionalized, it's so long running... the infrastructure around it, particularly things like the UKUSA agreement between GCHQ and NSA, and the nuclear relationship... this isn't going to disappear or evaporate."
• Personal Relationships versus Policy Shifts
  • Friction does occur, especially under particular US administrations, but the core relationship persists beyond individual personalities or temporary foreign policy rifts.

Life as Head of Station in Washington, D.C. in the 1990s

[09:32 – 12:28]

• After the Cold War: Navigating the Soviet Collapse
  • Dearlove recounts his Washington posting at a time of great geopolitical flux, particularly with the Soviet Union “imploding.”
    Memorable Moment (10:31):
    He describes arriving as the White House in Moscow (parliament building) was under siege, setting the tone for his tenure.
• Adapting to Shifting Priorities
  • Some areas of the intelligence relationship were tightly shared; others, like China, were more guarded by the Americans.

The Defection of Vasili Mitrokhin

[10:51 – 11:05]

• A Notable Intelligence Win
  • The defected Soviet archivist Mitrokhin’s story is recounted, with MI6 securing his cooperation after the CIA missed the opportunity.
  • Quote (Gordon, 10:55):
    "He tried the Americans first and the Americans didn't get it right."
• Lasting Impact
  • Dearlove notes, “We ended up with the prize, which became really quite a valuable prize.”

Formative Experiences: Early US Ties and the Cuban Missile Crisis

[11:08 – 12:28]

• Attending School in Connecticut During the Cuba Crisis
  • Dearlove studied in the US as a teen during the Cuban Missile Crisis (1962), and recalls writing home about nuclear fears.
  • Quote (Sir Richard Dearlove, 11:44):
    "I found the letter that I wrote to my parents in the school in Connecticut during the Cuba crisis. And it's quite interesting to read the letters of a 17-year-old."
  • Despite the anxiety of the time, his adolescent confidence shone through:
    Quote (Sir Richard Dearlove, 12:16):
    "My letters show supreme confidence that everything would be fine as it were."

The Prague Posting: Cold War Espionage and Double Agents

[12:28 – 16:42]

• Under Surveillance in Prague
  • Dearlove recounts his assignment in Prague, where he ran a “classic” double agent operation against Czech intelligence.
  • Recounts how the Czechs never suspected their own key officer was actually a British source until after the source died.
    Quote (Sir Richard Dearlove, 13:46):
    "The source was in charge of the operations ... his job was to run operations to penetrate British intelligence and we were running him."
• Legacy and Revelations Post-Cold War
  • Dearlove was awarded access to his Czech security file after the Velvet Revolution, aided by new Czech leaders appreciative of his role.
  • Humorous anecdote: Gordon describes his failed attempt to retrieve Dearlove’s file, only to find Richard had beaten him to it.
  • Dearlove notes with amusement that the Czechs mistook him for “a naive, rather useless” officer—proof of successful deception.
  • He hints at a forthcoming book detailing the operation, authored by a Czech archives expert.
• Professional Pride and Ongoing Friendships
  • The operation’s exposure paralyzed Czech intelligence activity for over a decade, a testament to its impact.
  • Dearlove speaks fondly of his Czech hosts’ subsequent hospitality and recommends Prague as a “wonderful city.”
  • Quote (Sir Richard Dearlove, 16:42):
    "I used to speak Czech pretty fluently, so I still sort of understand it and can read my way around, but I can't really speak it in the way that I used to be able to."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On US–UK Policy Differences:
  "There are always tensions and disagreements of policy ... but it didn't make any difference ultimately to the major issue, which is a relationship which is profound, deeply based, institutionalized, and has its ups and downs."
  — Sir Richard Dearlove [08:43]

• On the Value of Historical Perspective:
  "It's very interesting to see how one sort of digested this extraordinary crisis at that age."
  — Sir Richard Dearlove [12:20]

• On Career Reflections:
  "Talk about hoodwinking them. I hoodwinked them extremely successfully because I was there to do one thing, which was to run the colonel in charge of the operations against British intelligence."
  — Sir Richard Dearlove [16:17]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:36] — Dearlove critiques UK’s stance on the Iran conflict
• [05:30] — Prediction on the future of the Iranian regime
• [07:39] — Assessment of UK-US intelligence partnership’s resilience
• [10:51] — Story of Mitrokhin’s defection
• [11:44] — Reading personal letters from the Cuban Missile Crisis era
• [13:46] — Classic Cold War double agent operation in Prague
• [15:48] — How Dearlove retrieved his Czech security file
• [16:42] — Reflections on Prague and the Czech language

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Summary & Takeaways

This episode provides a rare, candid look into the mindset and experiences of a modern spymaster as he discusses everything from contemporary security dilemmas to the personal risks and triumphs of Cold War espionage. Sir Richard Dearlove is frank about past intelligence controversies, insightful about current affairs—especially regarding Iran—and witty about his own adventures and close shaves behind the Iron Curtain. Through his lens, listeners gain a deeper appreciation of the continuity, complexity, and at times humor, that runs through the real world of spies.

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For more interviews and real-life espionage tales, subscribe to The Rest Is Classified. For bonus content and community, join the Declassified Club at therealisclassified.com.

Transcript

[Host (David)]

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[Host (David)]

Well welcome everyone to this very special episode of the Declassified Club. Now, Gordon, we've had conversations with a few former CIA directors on the pod, but I believe this is the first time that we will be accompanied by one of our friends across the Atlantic, at least for bidirection. Isn't that right? Gordon will be joined by the head or the former head of what you like to call MI6, Gordon. But I don't like to call it MI6 on the podcast I like to call it the Secret Intelligence Service.

[Gordon (Co-host)]

That's right. We have got with us Sir Richard Dearlove, who was a career MI6 operations officer and then became Chief of the Secret Intelligence Service SIS to give it its right title, or MI6 as it's popularly known in 1999. And he served in that role until 2004, which took him through the tumultuous years really of the 911 attack and its aftermath, including of course the war in Iraq. Since leaving, he's also been busy, including hosting a podcast, One Decision. Everyone's got a podcast these days, haven't they? So, Richard, welcome to the Declassified Club. Thank you for joining us.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

Yeah, thanks.

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

Nice to meet you online, Gordon and David.

[Gordon (Co-host)]

Anyway, I'm here, Richard, we're going to go back and talk a bit about your career as far as you can and particularly focus on your time as chief. But I just wonder if it's worth starting now on your reflections on where we are at the moment. Because recent months the U.S. of course, has been engaged in a war in the Middle east against Iran, which the uk, Unlike in the case of Iraq, is not involved in. I mean, do you view that as the right move for the UK to have stepped back from the relationship and the alliance in the way it has been involved in the past?

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

Well, I think it could have been more supportive of the United States in this conflict without becoming directly involved. I mean, it made this esoteric distinction between defensive and offensive action, which I thought was a little bit esoteric. But on the other hand, I think we should have, from the word go, expressed our support for this conflict. I mean, what's extraordinary about the conflict with Iran is that I retired in 2004. It's an awful long time ago. What was the primary intelligence requirement when I retired? It was Iran, nuclear. This is in my book, perhaps, or probably the final chapter of a long running problem which was always going to come to a head. Trump and Netanyahu have acted in a manner to bring it to a head. So I'm not at all surprised by what's happened. And I think it was inevitable that given the intransigent nature of the theocratic regime in Iran, that this would eventually lead to a confrontation. And I sort of disagree a lot with the legal interpretation of the conflict. I mean, that's the opinion of international lawyers. It's nothing cut and dried about it. I think the Iranian regime has largely brought this situation on itself.

[Host (David)]

What do you think will be the sort of outcome or trajectory when this conflict is over, or if the notional ceasefire now holds and the conflict is resolved? Do you see resolution or some kind of mitigation of the risks on that file, or how do you see it going forward now that we've had Operation Epic Fury?

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

I think I would expect the Iranian regime to implode. It won't necessarily happen immediately, but on my own podcast on the New Year, I made a prediction that 2026 would see the disappearance of the Iranian regime. And I'M pretty sure in my own mind that that is where this will end up. I mean, the 12 day war destroyed the nuclear program. And what I mean by that is it probably destroyed enough of the centrifuges and the installations to make a serious weapons program ongoing. What it didn't solve was the problem of fissile material, which had already been produced, of which we understand there are 450 kilos buried somewhere under the mountain in Nantes after it was bombed. And, okay, that would allow Iran, let's say, to craft a nuclear device or one or two nuclear devices, and I use the word craft deliberately. What it wouldn't allow them to do was to create a weapons production line, because I think that has been destroyed. So there is a remaining problem. And of course, if you escalate the relationship, it's more likely that Iran would respond in time, maybe with some sort of nuclear device, which wouldn't necessarily be. I don't want to go into the technicalities, but you can see what I'm driving at in terms of using the FISS army material. So I think an essential part of the end of this conflict is the recovery of that material. And if you have a change of regime, you probably have a more compliant regime, which would have a different relationship with the West. Maybe that material can be extracted without a military operation. I think that's probably the direction in which we're driving at the moment.

[Gordon (Co-host)]

You talked a little bit at the start about the fact that the UK perhaps could have been closer. Do you worry about risks to the intelligence relationship? I mean, you've been quite deeply involved in that and committed to it.

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

Not really.

[Gordon (Co-host)]

It's a storm that will pass. You think?

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

I think it's so heavily institutionalized, it's so long running. My informal indications are that actually it's in pretty good shape. Look, there have always been tensions and disagreements of policy. There are always isolationist elements within the US Intelligence community. I'm not going to go into detail, but in my experience, you know, living inside the relationship isn't quite what people imagine from the outside. But on the other hand, the fact that it exists, the infrastructure around it, particularly things like the UCUZA agreement between GCHQ and nsa, and the nuclear relationship, which isn't part of the actual sort of structure of the special relationship. But I'm including, given that, you know, our deterrent is American technology or some American technology, this isn't going to disappear or evaporate. And so personal relationships, particularly those that Trump's behavior generates, I wouldn't Say, irrelevant. They create awkwardnesses and they create differences of policy. When I was head of stationary in Washington, which I was at one stage, I was often dealing with actually quite serious problems of disagreement. But it didn't make any difference ultimately to the major issue, which is a relationship which is profound, deeply based, institutionalized, and has its ups and downs. Okay, it's having a big down at the moment, but it's not going to collapse.

[Host (David)]

I wanted to ask you a bit more about your time as head of station in Washington, which I think was in the early 1990s, kind of at the tail end or really after the Cold War had concluded. Could you talk a little bit about that period of time and in particular what the special relationship was like at that stage and maybe how it's changed or how it hasn't over the past 30 years?

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

This is pre 9 11. I mean, it's in the period when the Soviet Union is implading, I think the exchanges and discussions, sort of understanding what was happening in Russia, what was happening in the Soviet Union. I mean, it was really important. There were areas where there were resistance on CIA's part to real closeness during that period. For example, they were quite proprietorial about their views of China.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

There were subjects where we cooperated very

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

closely in subjects where we were not so close. But overall, being head of station, I think I went there in early 91. I remember driving down to Washington, having holiday. I had three months off between two postings and I'd been holidaying up in Maine and driving down to Washington as that attack on the. When I say the White House in Moscow. You know what I mean?

[Gordon (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

I'm not talking about the White House

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

in Washington, where that specific incident, which was fantastically dramatic, and then realizing that these events were gonna color the whole of my time there. And of course there were some really big events, like, you know, the defection of the archivist, Mitrokin.

[Gordon (Co-host)]

One of my favorite stories. Yeah.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

He tried the Americans first and the Americans didn't get it right.

[Gordon (Co-host)]

Missed that one.

[Host (David)]

Made a mistake there. Yeah, missed that one slightly.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

We ended up with the prize, which became really quite a valuable prize. So, I mean, there was a whole

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

lot of extraordinary stuff that went on during that period.

[Gordon (Co-host)]

I think you'd been educated partly in the US as well, so it was quite deeply ingrained in you. And then I suppose you'd lived through the Cold War when the relationship had been very close. When you joined sis, I was an

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

exchange student under the English Speaking Union program at an American prep school. Kent School, Connecticut, which is a fine school actually. I was subsequently a governor of it. So I know the school or a trustee, as they say in the States, rather well. And yeah, it was a fantastic experience. This was 62, 63.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

Anyway, it was the autumn of the Cuba crisis.

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

My mother, when my mother died, I discovered she kept all my letters. And I've got them here in a drawer, I'm sitting next to it and I found the letter that I wrote to my parents in the school in Connecticut during the Cuba crisis. And it's quite interesting to read the letters of a 17 year old.

[Gordon (Co-host)]

Did you think you were going to die? Did you think it was all over?

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

Well, I said they're talking about the threat of nuclear war

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

anyway.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

No, I think my letters show supreme

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

confidence that everything would be fine as it were.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

But on the other hand that there

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

is this massive risk. It's very interesting to see how one sort of digested this extraordinary crisis at that age.

[Gordon (Co-host)]

And then you joined sis and then you were in Prague, weren't you? I mean, I'm not sure how much you can talk about it, but I think you ran quite an interesting agent in Prague and you were under surveillance. And you know, as a kind of young officer, I remember once after the end of the Cold War, trying to get hold of going to the Czech Security Service and actually trying to get hold of your file, you'll be pleased to know, to find out what they knew about you. And it had been magically removed from the archives.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

Actually, I've got it. So I got it before you, Gordon,

[Gordon (Co-host)]

you got there first. I did my best.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

I've got most of it.

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

I haven't got the whole thing, but interestingly, Penguin are going to publish a book about the case I ran next to year. I'm sure you know her. Danielle, who is the most wonderful expert on the STP archives, has been immersed in these archives. I mean, she wrote this excellent book on the relationship between the Czech Communist Party and various Palestinian terrorist groups, which I thought was superb because no one else had sort of delved into that and understood it. Anyway, she's now delving into this case. Of course, she hasn't got access to the MI6 archives, so I'm going to restrict my comments

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

to what comes out of the Czech archives. But you know, this was one of the big CI cases of the Cold

[Gordon (Co-host)]

War, big counterintelligence cases.

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

Yeah, the source was in charge of the operations. In Czech they're called Spravodays, which means intelligence games, which basically means double Agent cases, and his job was to run the operations to penetrate British intelligence and we were running him. So it was the classic Cold War case, and it will make a fascinating book because he died well whilst I was in Prague towards the end of my time there. He actually died of natural causes. I mean, he had a heart attack and died. He wasn't very old. I mean, he was a man in his. Probably in his 40s or maybe a bit older than that, in his 50s. Of course, the Czechs never could interrogate him. So once they discovered that he had been a British source, which they did from the papers in his house, there were bits and pieces of evidence he had left lying around. Their service was completely turned upside down by. By an investigation which lasted for 12 or 14 years and sort of froze their activity because it was such a key penetration. And it was. I mean, I think, you know, we had such a complete picture of what they were doing. It was rather. It was a privilege.

[Host (David)]

You might not answer this, but how did you get the file before Gordon did? What strings did you have to pull to get your own security file from Prague and beat Gordon Carrera to the punch?

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

That was pretty easy because I was invited immediately back to Prague after the

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

Velvet Revolution by Havel, actually, who was by then president, to celebrate the role I had played in, as it were, the penetration of. There's a plaque somewhere in Prague. It talks about the torturing secret police. Anyway, the guy, the dissident who became head of the Czech service, he was a delightful, lovely man called Aldo Chani, who I'm sure Gordon probably knew too, and Alder was a close friend of mine. And Alder said, well, I'm not really meant to do this, Richard,

[Gordon (Co-host)]

but here's your foul.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

But he dug into the archives and said, I've got an interesting envelope here

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

for you to take over with you.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

But it's interesting because it's not the

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

investigational bit

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

of the archives which recorded

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

what happened after this case. It's my personal file, which is fascinating and very interesting and, you know, I've read it with great amusement because the Czechs thought I was a naive, rather useless.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

I mean, talk about hoodwinking them. I hoodwinked them extremely successfully because I was there to do one thing, which was to run the colonel in charge of the operations against British intelligence. And they never twigged until after he had died.

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

Anyway, so the Czechs have celebrated this and they've been awfully nice to me and I get lots of rather wonderful invitations to go back, which has been tremendous fun.

[Richard Dearlove (Alternate)]

It's a great I love going to Prague.

[Sir Richard Dearlove]

It's just a wonderful city. I used to speak Czech pretty fluently, so I still sort of understand it and can read my way around, but I can't really speak it in the way that I used to be able to. Foreign

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[Sir Richard Dearlove]

Com.