Andy Burnham - Our First Indie-Kid PM?

Summary

The Rest Is Entertainment — “Andy Burnham: Our First Indie-Kid PM?”

Episode Date: June 22, 2026
Hosts: Richard Osman & Marina Hyde

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Episode Overview

This episode explores three major threads:

• The behind-the-scenes drama around Amazon dropping "Artificial," the nearly completed Sam Altman biopic.
• A playful but in-depth exploration of Andy Burnham’s authentic indie music credentials and what cultural authenticity means in politics as he looks set to become the next UK Prime Minister.
• Quentin Tarantino’s claim that no good movies have been made since the pandemic, the proliferation of critical “canon” lists, and personal recommendations from the hosts.

The episode blends sharp pop culture analysis, British self-deprecation, and well-informed industry gossip.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Sam Altman Biopic Drama (“Artificial”)

(Main segment: 03:09–22:22)

Background and Film Details

• The film, titled Artificial, zeroes in on Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, dramatizing the five days in 2023 when he was ousted and reinstated ([05:13]).
• Directed by Luca Guadagnino (Call Me By Your Name), written by Simon Rich (SNL alum), and starring Andrew Garfield as Altman.
• Cast includes Monica Barbaro, Jason Schwartzman, Cooper Hoffman, Chris O'Dowd, Mark Rylance, and Ike Barinholtz as Elon Musk ([06:01]).

Why Did Amazon Drop It?

• Amazon invested ~$40M in the film. Recently, it dropped the project shortly before its completion and festival run ([06:41]).
• Official line: better suited for another distributor. Both hosts are openly skeptical ([07:17]).
• Amazon has major (multi-billion) commercial ties with OpenAI, creating a potential conflict of interest. Last year, for example, there was a $38B cloud partnership ([07:38–08:15]).

Industry Implications & Censorship Concerns

• The film’s portrayal of Altman and Elon Musk is, according to insiders, "particularly bleak and dark" ([08:15]).
• The move mirrors struggles of other recent films about powerful figures, e.g., The Apprentice (Trump’s early years) also facing distribution roadblocks ([10:15]).
• Marina notes that many projects tackling tech barons have quietly evaporated, with studios explicitly telling established creators: “Have you got anything that isn’t about Elon Musk or whoever?” ([12:09])
• Amazon hasn’t buried the film outright; other studios (A24, Netflix) have also passed, which Marina finds even more depressing ([14:46–15:26]).
• Quote: “Editorial independence is being eroded all the time... These firms have become so completely powerful within their own business.” — Marina Hyde ([16:56])

Counterculture and the Future

• Richard is optimistic. History shows that when powerful interests suppress art, new forms & avenues emerge — “The water finds its way through the concrete” ([18:35], [19:03]).
• Marina is less so: “You often have to live through a period of censorship or self-censorship first. And I worry that we're sort of living through that period.” ([19:19])
• They debate whether a true counterculture is possible as every creative sector grows more dependent on tech conglomerates ([20:01–21:35]).

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2. Is Andy Burnham Cool? – Music, Authenticity and the Indie PM

(Main segment: 25:14–40:26)

Pop-Cultural Bona Fides

• With Andy Burnham likely on track to be PM, the hosts debate: are we about to get the first authentic "indie kid" Prime Minister?
• Burnham’s deep and specific indie/alternative music taste convinces both hosts of his authenticity.
• Reference: His "Baker’s Dozen" playlist for The Quietus, comprising 13 key albums of his life ([26:39]).

Burnham’s Playlist—Evidence of His Indie Roots

• The Smiths - Hatful of Hollow: “That’s the album that did it for everyone.” — Richard ([27:54])
• The Pogues - Rum, Sodomy & the Lash: “[He] wants ‘Sick Bed of Cuchulainn’ played at his funeral… you wouldn’t pick that unless it was real.” ([28:10])
• Stone Roses & The La’s: Ties to Liverpool and Manchester roots.
• Billy Bragg, Radiohead – OK Computer, The Wedding Present – George Best, Big Thief, The Cortinas.
• Anecdote: Burnham recalls nights at the Hacienda club—“I was very much Thursday night, I was a lager guy… I genuinely didn’t take ecstasy.” ([29:36])
• On the Indie Kid label: “If you want to know the age of a certain man… If they say one of my favorite albums is ‘George Best’ by the Wedding Present, then they were born in 1970. You can almost to the month work it out.” — Richard ([30:30])

The Politics of Cool—Authenticity vs. Image

• Both agree that no politician, no matter their tastes, can truly be “cool.” “You can’t really be cool when you are the figurehead of a system… Being an outsider is cool. Being a politician isn’t.” — Marina ([34:30])
• The one thing politicians can have: authentic passion, be it music (Burnham), football (Starmer), or other non-political domains ([34:52–36:35]).
• For contrast: Farage is cited as entirely lacking a “cultural hinterland” — “He couldn’t even think of a film title.” ([37:05])
• Obama: held up as the closest example of a “cool” politician, especially via his curated playlists, but even he never quite crossed the cool threshold ([37:50–38:30]).

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3. Quentin Tarantino, Canon, and the Power of Lists

(Main segment: 40:26–53:16)

Tarantino Stirs the Pot

• Recent quote: There have been “no good movies since the lockdown… all defined by flaws, implausibilities, audience pandering, miscast performers, or just plain stupid shit.” ([40:31])
• His next project? A West End farce, The Popinjay Cavalier—table reads are reportedly underway ([41:08]).

Hosts’ Top 3 Films Since the Pandemic ([42:21–45:50])

• Marina:
  1. Barbenheimer (Barbie & Oppenheimer double-bill phenomenon)
  2. The Souvenir Part II (Joanna Hogg)
  3. Nope (Jordan Peele) Barbenheimer: “What it showed us… the phenomenon of them being yoked together was very, very cool.” ([43:30])
• Richard:
  1. The Ballad of Wallis Island (Tom Basden & Tim Key)
  2. The Holdovers (Alexander Payne, Paul Giamatti)
  3. Rye Lane (Raine Allen-Miller)
     “All of these movies, if you’re a writer or if you have any sort of love in your heart, I think you would enjoy all three of them.” ([45:50])

Lists, Canons, and Curation Culture

• Tarantino’s comments spark a flurry of editorial lists & debates about "the canon".
• The New York Times has just appointed its first “Head of Canon” (Gilbert Cruz) ([46:33]).
  • This role will focus on continually updated definitive lists of best books, films, restaurants, etc.
  • “These lists now form a huge amount of what you read online… the most successful cultural products they produce, not criticism.” — Marina ([48:14])
• Guardian Top 100 Books anecdote: readers crave curation over direct critical reviews ([50:51]).

Lists as Cultural Products

• Lists endure online (“evergreen content”), serve as curation tools, and contribute to taste-making in an overwhelming culture ([48:15–49:38]).
• Marina predicts more "heads of canon" will emerge throughout media ([51:53]).

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4. Recommendations & Memorable Moments

(Main segment: 53:18–55:48)

Richard:

• Return to Space (Netflix doc): “Absolutely fascinating… makes you realize what an extraordinary endeavor going to space is.” ([53:20])

Marina:

• Pompeii: Out of Time (National Geographic/Disney) — specifically recommends the trailer, with Tom Hiddleston as a dramatic "time detective".
  “If you are an ironic admirer of Tom Hiddleston’s intensity as I am, there is so much to enjoy in this trailer” ([54:36])
• Roy Keane’s recent rant on "wags" (wives and girlfriends of footballers) putting their husbands’ names on shirts. "Judge Roy Keane… I love you, Roy Keane." ([55:07])

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5. Quotes & Notable Soundbites

• On Censorship & Editorial Independence:
  “Editorial independence is being eroded all the time... These firms have become so completely powerful within their own business. It sends a chill wind for me.” — Marina Hyde ([16:56–17:50])
• On Politicians and Pop Culture:
  “He [Farage] couldn’t even think of a film title. If you cannot name a film, it’s ridiculous.” — Marina Hyde ([37:05])
• On Authenticity vs. Cool:
  “You can be charismatic and that really matters… being an outsider is cool. Being a politician isn’t.” — Marina Hyde ([34:30]) “Cool is an impossibility [for politicians]… If Barack Obama isn't cool then it is impossible for a politician to be cool.” — Richard Osman ([38:00])
• On List Culture:
  “Lists are now one of the most important things in digital media… the most successful products that New York Times produces are not criticism any longer. They are these giant, definitive lists.” — Marina Hyde ([48:14])
• On Optimism and Counterculture:
  “I’m an appalling optimist… creative people never change the sort of stories that they want to tell. Creativity finds its way through the dam.” — Richard Osman ([19:03])

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Timestamps for Big Segments

• 03:09 – Artificial: Amazon’s Sam Altman biopic drama begins
• 14:46 – Distribution problems for films about tech oligarchs (Artificial, The Apprentice, Social Network 2)
• 19:03 – Optimism/pessimism about the future of countercultural art
• 25:14 – “Is Andy Burnham cool?” (Indie music, PM credentials)
• 36:35 – Political authenticity: Who’s real, who’s not, and why it matters
• 40:26 – Tarantino’s pronouncement: no good post-pandemic films
• 42:21 – Hosts’ top three films since the pandemic
• 46:33 – Curation, canons, and the proliferation of lists in media
• 53:18 – Richard & Marina’s personal recommendations

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Episode Tone

Dry British wit, industry insight, playful takes, occasional exasperation with the state-of-the-world, but a baseline of affection for both media and the quirks of its creators and consumers.

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Takeaways

• The intersection of big tech and entertainment is making it increasingly hard to tell difficult real-life stories about the powerful.
• "Authenticity" may be more important than ever for public figures—true especially as politicians try (and mostly fail) to draw cultural credibility from music, film, or sports allegiances.
• Lists, rankings, and canons are a new form of criticism and taste-making, reflecting both the glut of culture and the public’s craving for curation.
• Despite the grim media landscape, creativity finds ways to disrupt and reemerge (if after frustrating cycles of self-censorship).
• Andy Burnham, for what it’s worth, is conclusively “an indie kid.”

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Summary compiled by an expert listener of The Rest Is Entertainment, cross-referenced with direct quotes and timestamps for clarity and accuracy.

Transcript

[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

Certainly in our day you would write to a film star or a singer. I wrote to Howard Jones. And maybe three months later a sort of signed photo comes back that's clearly pro forma. You know that, you know Howard's never

[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

Impersonal is interesting. That's why we're talking about this. Because with Octopus Energy you always can reply to their emails and not only can you reply to them, they will go to the same small group of people who always deal with you. That's like unbelievable.

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It's almost unprecedented that a company you're giving your money to will actually respond to.

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And sometimes it doesn't even take the technicolour. Put on a black and white thriller set on the Italian coast and I'll enjoy the mystery. But part of me is already working out which flight gets me nearest. Preferably with less identity theft and bluer skies.

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[Richard Osman]

Book [e-mail] selected dates and flights, July to September. Limited availability, holidays at all protected. Terms and conditions apply. I sold my car in Carvana last night.

[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

It went perfectly.

[Marina Hyde]

Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem?

[Richard Osman]

That is the problem.

[Marina Hyde]

Nothing in my life goes as smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch.

[Richard Osman]

That's exactly what a catch Would want

[Marina Hyde]

me to think, wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood.

[Richard Osman]

Do we have. What is this table wood?

[Marina Hyde]

I think it's laminate.

[Richard Osman]

Okay. Yeah, that's good. That's close enough.

[Marina Hyde]

Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana.

[Richard Osman]

Pick up.

[Marina Hyde]

These may apply. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rest Is Entertainment with me, Marina

[Richard Osman]

Hyde and me, Richard Osman. Hello, everybody. Hi. Hi, Marina.

[Marina Hyde]

How are you, Richard?

[Richard Osman]

I'm very, very well, thank you. I've been away for a week, which is absolutely lovely. But I'm delighted to be back.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes.

[Richard Osman]

To talk about show business and billionaires. What are the billionaires up to?

[Marina Hyde]

What are the billionaires up to? Because we are going to be talking about artificial which is almost completed film about Sam Altman that Amazon have just dropped for reasons.

[Richard Osman]

They'll have a good reason.

[Marina Hyde]

Sure. They'll have a really great reason for doing that.

[Richard Osman]

We're also going to talk about. We're about to have a new prime minister as you are.

[Marina Hyde]

We. We're recording this on Monday. Yes. I believe that today we will see the great drama addicted Drama afflicted. British public will see that lectern for the seventh time in a decade.

[Richard Osman]

But please don't panic because we are not going to talk about politics. We're going to ask the question, is Andy Burnham cool?

[Marina Hyde]

But we're also going to say can any politician ever be cool?

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, but via his entertainment choices. We are not going to be talking about his. His monetary policies. We're going to be talking about his favorite albums.

[Marina Hyde]

That'll be a help. Right? And we're also talking about Quentin Tarantino said there've been no good films recently. He said there've been no good films since the pandemic, which sparked a bunch of lists and things saying that there has been. What about these ones? And we're going to talk a little bit about his comments, but a lot about the phenomenon of those lists, those cultural lists that you probably see a lot more of than you ever used to.

[Richard Osman]

And I like the fact that you're saying that like it's a bad thing. So I should just said I will also give everyone my top three films since the pandemic. Oh my God.

[Marina Hyde]

I know I have to do this. Ok, I will do this too. Yes.

[Richard Osman]

Sam Altman, Amazon. A lot going on.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay. We have to do a little. Who is Sam Altman? Sam Altman is.

[Richard Osman]

Who is Sam Altman?

[Marina Hyde]

Exactly. He has the cold, dead eyes of the boyfriend who joins in the search for the missing girlfriend in My view. But he is also.

[Richard Osman]

He's like a dislikable Elon Musk.

[Marina Hyde]

He is, I think, potentially the worst, which really matters in. In that particular group. But he's the OpenAI sort of chief executive. OpenAI, obviously their most famous product is ChatGPT, but they have VAR other systems. Remember, it started OpenAI as a not for profit sort of weirdly idealistic, altruistic Enterprise. And in 2016, Sam Altman was saying, anyone familiar with the 1930s? It's absolutely chilling watching Trump in action. Anyway, by the time of the second inauguration, there he was in oligarchs row. Open AI is no longer a non profit. It isn't rapacious capitalist entity. They've accepted a number of defense contracts that even anthropic said, we can't in all conscience do this.

[Richard Osman]

Even Anthropic.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. Anyway, so he is. That's who Sam Altman is. And the film is called Artificial and it is. The story of these are often quite helpful if you're trying to dramatize anything. There's five days in 2023 where Sam Altman is ousted at OpenAI and then he comes back.

[Richard Osman]

Spoiler alert.

[Marina Hyde]

Spoiler alert. If you're catching up with the last few years on box set, I'm sor. This film is directed by Luca Guadagnino, who did Call Me by youy Name Challengers.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, absolutely. The real deal.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Couldn't be more of a real deal of a director at the moment.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. It's written by Simon Rich, who's a former SNL writer who's done various other things. It stars Andrew Garfield as Sam Altman. Also. I mean, the cast is a joke. It's not. It's also Monica Barbara, Yuri Borisoff from Honora.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. Ike Barinholtz as Elon Musk, which is amazing. I have to see this Ike Barinholtz, if for people who didn't know him, he's the guy who plays Sal Saperstein on the studio. So he's one of those. And he doesn't look unadjacent to Elon Musk. I never noticed it before, but the second as soon as I read it,

[Marina Hyde]

I was like, I can't wait to see it. Okay. Jason Schwarzman, Cooper Hoffman, Sasha Mamet, Chris o', Dowd, Mark Rylance. It's sort of long and strong, this thing, and it's nearly finished. It's at a sort of screening stage.

[Richard Osman]

Long and strong. That's a cast list.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. Yes. Like in a Bridge Hand.

[Richard Osman]

But it's like the man City bench.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

In terms of what happens, Amazon has dropped it. Amazon making this film, they, you know, I don't know what it's cost.

[Richard Osman]

Something like 40 million, they reckon.

[Marina Hyde]

And the decision has supposedly been made to drop it. They've said it might be better suited to another distributor.

[Richard Osman]

And so Jeff Bezos, who of course is the ultimate boss of Amazon, has a friendship with Sam Altman. Sam Altman. Was that the Bezos Sanchez wedding? Is that correct?

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Which we were not invited to. So they are friends. So. Huh. It's almost like something else is going on here.

[Marina Hyde]

The decision's been made by Mike Hopkins, we should say. He's. He's the head of Prime Video and Amazon MGM Studios.

[Richard Osman]

So can I ask you a question that we're all asking? Why would you finance a $40 million Luca Guadagnino movie? Why would you make the whole thing? Why would you get that stellar cast together and then why would you, just before it's about to start, you know, playing at festivals and stuff, why would you suddenly drop it?

[Marina Hyde]

Well, I mean, I suppose it comes down to who you want to believe. They think it would be better suited to another distributor. But what we have to say is that Amazon has a deepening relationship with OpenAI. A few months ago, they did a huge deal with OpenAI. All the deals with OpenAI involve people giving OpenAI billions. It's like one of the weirdest things about modern life. Amazon are basically giving a 50 billion investment to OpenAI. But last year they did a, I think sort of 30 or 40, but 38 billion cloud partnership. And so, yes, I mean, it doesn't look great, does it, that they've got this far?

[Richard Osman]

The story is they. They'd obviously commissioned this movie, they'd seen the movie. And word from inside the Amazon campus, I was. It was actually. It was a lot darker than we were imagining. And certainly the people who've seen it, they say the portrayal of Sam Altman and Elon Musk are particularly. I mean, brilliant is what people are saying, but. But particularly bleak and dark. And so Amazon saw this and decided that maybe. Because, of course, 40 million is the budget of the movie. So you're now at the stage where Amazon go, well, we're going to put this on our platform. We're going to spend the marketing money, which could be another 40 million. So you're at that point, but they're

[Marina Hyde]

going to put it in cinemas first because this is clearly. This would have awards chances, as we know. This is a sort of.

[Richard Osman]

But but if you're a bit, if you're Amazon at that moment, this is, this is a moment where if you can press the jettison button, you are not paying for the second half of that. And more importantly, if you have relationships with OpenAI, which clearly they do, you are not having to use your platform to constantly promote this thing and you're not having to have Amazon branding behind Ike Barinholtz and Andrew Garfield sitting there talking about the movie.

[Marina Hyde]

Some people have seen an early draft of this, so we should say a little bit more. It's obviously not a sort of Hallmark hymn to Sam Altman and people who've read early drafts which will have changed. But as you say, if it's got darker, it apparently portrays him, Sam Altman, as sort of intensely manipulative, a schemer, a sort of power hoarder, monomaniac, et cetera. There are lots, obviously there are lots of walk ons for other people even including people like the Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella. And I mean, there's just no way this can look good at all. And we have to think of it in the context of everything that has been happening recently. First of all, you know, you think about that movie, the Apprentice that starred Sebastian Stan as this sort of young Donald Trump and Jeremy Strong, that was going to be 100% in awards conversation, but it really struggled to get distribution. Really struggled, even though it was quite clear going to pick up some awards and it was nominated and it was going to be in all sorts of awards conversation. The problem is not with the creators. And a lot of people may think these people, these guys define our age. These guys are the extraordinarily powerful. The problem about them being tackled as subjects is absolutely not with writers and creatives. I personally know a number of people who have projects about these guys in development. And there are film and TV projects about the attack barons in development, all of them. You know, we do know that the Social Reckoning is coming out, which is

[Richard Osman]

the follow up to the Social Network. What, what Mark Zuckerberg did next.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, yes. And the trailer's out and that's coming out in October. Aaron Sorkin, who has written and directed this time as well, said that, you know, we haven't heard from anyone except their lawyers saying, just be careful. That's from Meta's lawyers. But we're yet to see any films about Peter Till in production. Even, you know, he's extremely litigious, but he actually does literally believe in the Antichrist. So for me, you know, seems like worth a shot at covering him creatively. This is a man whose companies are being knit tighter and tighter into the apparatus of a number of supposedly democratic states. I know so many people who've had projects, and it was really interesting after the election of Trump in 2024, a lot of those people, a lot of these companies, the big companies called those people who had those projects and said, don't worry, we're still gonna carry on with them. Okay. I haven't seen any of those projects come out. They are not even greenlit. I don't. As far. You know, they're not. And a lot of those people the studios are going to. And these are not sort of small spec script writers. These are people with big overall deals who are tackling the big subjects. The big people of the age. People are saying to them, have you got anything that isn't about, you know, Elon Musk or whoever it is?

[Richard Osman]

Have you got a buddy copy?

[Marina Hyde]

Have you got something different? And it's really interesting and that we've seen a few things. We saw Jesse Armstrong's Mountainhead, but that wasn't about specific, you know, it was about tech Bros.

[Richard Osman]

In general.

[Marina Hyde]

They did it very quickly to be eligible for Emmy consideration and various things like that. But it's hard to say now that many of these things are coming to light. And here is one that has got all the way to that stage with an unbelievable, impeccable sort of creative team behind it. And they're just putting it out.

[Richard Osman]

Can I present a counterpoint?

[Marina Hyde]

Yes.

[Richard Osman]

A very brief counterpoint, which is we didn't used to do these fast turnaround movies about people who were still active quite so much. It didn't used to be a thing. There is an interesting moral place where writers are. If they are writing about these people and these people who are heavily lawyered as well. And I don't think it's shocking that there aren't 10 films a year about Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. I mean, I understand why writers want to write about them because they're unbelievable bogey men. And they are doing something extraordinary that's never been done before. And they are doing it in plain sight. And yet a lot of what they're doing doesn't seem to have crossed over. But it is an unusual situation to be in. And if I were a business person, which, you know, I am not. And I was.

[Marina Hyde]

You're not terrible at it.

[Richard Osman]

And I was. You know, I think it comes down to this. If Amazon had buried this, that would be a shock. If Amazon had funded this and buried it and said, no, well, it's our movie and we're not going to show it. But no one else can as well. That would be one thing for them to say. You know, they're holding their hands up and going, we have a deep personal relationship with the person this film is about.

[Marina Hyde]

They're not saying that, though.

[Richard Osman]

Oh, no, but of course, I mean,

[Marina Hyde]

but it's quite obvious. But don't you say how history judges you. You just pa 75 million for an abysmal to Brett Ratner and Melania for an abysmal documentary about her. But you can't put this out. Well, I mean, I'm sorry, what do you think history is going to say about you? Because I would be too embarrassed to do it.

[Richard Osman]

Well, because they're not really a movie company. I mean, 75 million, 40 million. I mean, it's zero to them, essentially. It's.

[Marina Hyde]

It's James Bond, a movie franchise. Because they have that. I think they are.

[Richard Osman]

That's the interesting one. It'd be interesting to see who the baddie is. And then you. James Bond movie.

[Marina Hyde]

I'll tell you who won't be. He will not be Chinese or North Korean. He will not be. Because they are. The executives are the craven people. It is not the creatives.

[Richard Osman]

But it is interesting that they are allowing the filmmakers to take it elsewhere. And it's had a huge amount of publicity, a lot more publicity than it would have done if they had shown it anyway. And, you know, it's been shown across LA for the last week or so. It's interesting who is passing on it, because a lot of people have passed on it. If you, if you believe the trade papers, a 24 passed on it. Netflix have passed on it. So whatever Amazon is worried about showing Sam Altman in that light or Elon Musk in that light, other people seem to be as well, because people are saying it's not a bad movie, but almost everybody is passing on it. And that's almost more depressing.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, I think. I think what's to find? Another positive. These movies can be very influential. If you look at that portrait of Mark Zuckerberg from the Social Network, the first film, it was just incredibly influential as to how people saw him from then on, you know, and he would dispute the account that actually the way it was created was born out of a night of incredible misogyny and rating women and all of this sort of stuff. But that stuck. If anything is sort of miraculously shaded into something even darker now Which I'm sure we'll see in the second film. But I think these films are influential. I think it's more depressing that they're doing this publicly. I really do. I think that they've become shameless. This is just the way things are now. We've seen all sorts of cavings to the Trump administration and we're seeing just a much more massively increased tension between media companies and the tech firms and editorial independents everywhere, from news to whatever. It will be interesting to see other test cases, like, you know, what if someone who's traditionally regarded as brave or whatever, someone at HBO comes up with something. And it will be a test for Casey Bloys at the top of HBO to say, oh, we're going to do this and how will the Ellisons feel about this or that? And this will be a test of the new form of ownership of Warners by Paramount, Skydance or whatever, and by the Ellisons. Will they cave? Will they do it? It's very difficult. People are caving to tech because tech is becoming increasingly woven into all of their systems and they can't really exist without. And they've all doing deals with. With OpenAI. And we talked about TBPM, which, you know, is a podcast I like, but it's basically been bought now by OpenAI as a form of PR arm for themselves. And I think that editorial independence is being eroded all the time. And this is, for me, the worst that I almost prefer it if they tried to do it, you know, shamefully and in the background. Just saying openly that they're not doing it sends a chill win for me.

[Richard Osman]

What happens though, in this situation if you are not able to go through these big main channels to make movies like this or to make art like this about the people who are running the world? One would hope that there's enough counter cultural money or enough money that has not been tied up by OpenAI or people who are bending the knee to Trump. One would hope there's enough of that money. And what counterculture?

[Marina Hyde]

I mean, what counterculture? I don't see that there is one.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, but then there never is one until the culture changes. That's the point.

[Marina Hyde]

I don't think there is a financial counterculture that it's very, very hard. Why was it so hard for the Apprentice to find a distributor? And I mean, it was an absolute uphill struggle for that. And it wasn't particularly expensive. It was very good. And they just couldn't seem to find anyone to.

[Richard Osman]

I know, but even as you're saying that all I'm thinking is, well, there's a gap in the market and there's a very, very lucrative gap in the market. That's all I'm, that's all I think you might not be doing these through the legacy studios where something's costing you 75 million, but you can certainly, you know, if, you know, Blumhouse wanted to do a horror, they should do a.

[Marina Hyde]

They should do Attack Baron's horror.

[Richard Osman]

But, you know, that feels to me like such an easy thing to do. I think when everything gets so calcified, when a culture gets so calcified and so in the hands of a very few people, which is exactly what's happened now, that's when the fight back begins. I always think that because creative people never change how they're creative. Creative people never change the sort of stories that they want to tell. It's just that at the moment, someone's not going to give them $40 million plus another $40 million in marketing to tell that story. So creativity is still creativity. It will find a way through the dam. You know, the water finds its way through the concrete. And I, maybe, but I just think that there's always a reaction to these things.

[Marina Hyde]

There is always a reaction, but you often have to live through a period of censorship or, you know, self censorship first. And I worry that we're sort of, of living through that period. In fact, we clearly are. You know, it's just a different calculus when people are talking about, oh, we can't make this project because of our cloud partnerships. I mean, this is, this is something we haven't been thinking about before. But you can see it across all sorts of things. You can see it across late night, across news, across now in cinema. Lots of people are just stepping back or saying, well, we won't do that. We'll do. Because these firms have become so completely powerful within their own business.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

Not just like they're outside people in the culture that we might not want to offend. They're so knit in to the delivery of your services that you don't really have another choice.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

Or they feel they don't.

[Richard Osman]

And bullying works. Yeah, and not even bullying works. Sometimes they're complicit. You know, that's the even scarier bit of it. But I do, I'm an appalling optimist and I have to apologize for almost weekly on this podcast. Sorry, everybody. But you know, I do think that that kind of last wish of the dinosaurs tale sometimes is a real fill up for Creativity and for where we go next in culture and we live. It's these absurd sort of end times that we live in as regards money and tech and art. I just don't think it can last. I think something else comes out of it that's interesting and intriguing. And if I was a 21 year old at home at the moment who's a filmmaker or a writer or a creator of any sort, well, I know what I'd be thinking and I know what I'd be creating and that's the next generation of art that we're going to get.

[Marina Hyde]

So I agree and I do think that there are exciting things or we can see already happening that to co op the language of these tech firms. The disruptive. Yeah, there's some really interesting disruptive creators in all sorts of different parts of the creative industries. But I'm not sure that they're politically disruptive so far. Maybe that will come. But I think they're creatively disruptive and I think they're doing all sorts of other interesting things. But I don't see it coming in a sort of political way. And I think that that is, hopefully that will follow.

[Richard Osman]

But we are 100% definitively in an era where American popular culture is under the yoke of about five people, all of whom are billionaires and all of whom have quite thin skins.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes. And it's interesting that so many people are moving away. We should do something on China maxing in a future episode because lots of the cultural. The cultural pull is moving past even somewhere like Seoul and it's just moving east. And I think that lots of interesting stuff or just compelling stuff for young people. Gen Z, but particularly Gen A is now coming from China and I think that.

[Richard Osman]

But of course, because. Because of all this nonsense where of

[Marina Hyde]

course they have no censorship. You're right. There's plenty, of course, for optimism.

[Richard Osman]

Oh, the world. It never gets any better, really, does it? Well, you know, yeah, I suppose medical science advances.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes. Yeah, that's good, you know, and AR will be very helpful in that, I'm sure.

[Richard Osman]

Should we go for a break?

[Marina Hyde]

Let's.

[Richard Osman]

And after that we're going to be talking about whether Andy Burnham is cool or not. We're not going to be talking politics, we're going to be talking music. This episode is brought to you by the Lloyds 5k house deposit.

[Marina Hyde]

Lloyds are offering a 5k house deposit which was last seen in 1996. What are your entertainment memories of the 1990s?

[Richard Osman]

I feel guilty talking about the 1990s because you look back and it was, it was such a golden era.

[Marina Hyde]

We'd never had it so good and we didn't even realise because we were young and we just thought we were entitled to it all.

[Richard Osman]

We absolutely took it for granted. Yeah. Brit pop was absolutely in its pomp Oasis playing to a quarter of a million people. You had Blur Sway.

[Marina Hyde]

I'm so sorry.

[Richard Osman]

Amazing movies at the cinema, train spotting. I mean, it felt a time of absolute optimism, but at the time you just assumed that was the way that.

[Marina Hyde]

A very British type of optimism.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. But part of the optimism, of course, is that mortgages were more affordable and that is what Lloyds is dealing with right now.

[Marina Hyde]

Yep. Last seen in 1996, Lloyds are now offering 5K deposit mortgages to first time buyers. Search 5K First Time Buyer 1996 Average

[Richard Osman]

first time buyer deposits based on ONS data subject to status. Your home may be repossessed if you don't keep up repayments. Conditions apply.

[Marina Hyde]

Hi, this is Gary Lineker from Goal Hangers. The rest is football. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee, and what might be hidden away in the small print. Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas, or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate, an easy transfer and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps things simple. Wise is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than 160 countries and with over 40 currencies, most transfers arrive instantly. Wise uses the mid market exchange rate like the one you see on Google with no markups or hidden fees. So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise T's and C's apply.

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[Richard Osman]

Welcome back everybody. Now listen, we move on from from that fraught first half to ask a simple question, which is, are we about to have our first indy kid? Prime Minister Marina, for our overseas listeners, interesting developments in British politics at the moment.

[Marina Hyde]

Interesting and strangely familiar. Yes, we're going to have a new Prime Minister. Yeah, we're recording this on Monday, but as events advance, in due course, we will have a new Prime Minister. And unless something absolutely cataclysmic happens, that Prime Minister will probably be Andy Burnham.

[Richard Osman]

It will. We are not going to talk about politics, don't worry about that. I have a very specific thing that I wanted to explore, which is, is Andy Burnham cool? Now, I know you don't think anyone's cool, so actually, what I'm saying.

[Marina Hyde]

No, that's not true. You know that's not true.

[Richard Osman]

Are we about to have our first indie kid? Prim Minister? We've had all sorts of Prime Ministers on desert island this before, and political leaders. Cameron went on it. He chose a Smith song, he chose this charming man. He chose a killer song, he chose a Radiohead song, the Fake Plastic Trees. But he's not. He wasn't an indie kid. I mean, those are the ones you would choose if, you know, you'd sat around with an advisor and decided which songs to choose. He's talked about Loving Eaton Rifles by the Jam as well, which must. I mean, imagine being Paul Weller and hearing that Boris Johnson went on. He just pressured somebody who saw David

[Marina Hyde]

Cameron at a party once, like sort of pogo, to tangle malice.

[Richard Osman]

Oh, really?

[Marina Hyde]

Sorry, you're just not allowed to do this.

[Richard Osman]

I know, it's.

[Marina Hyde]

So, yeah, you're banned off this.

[Richard Osman]

Kemi Bay, not recently. Went on Desert Island Dish. She had a couple of songs from Hamilton. They said don't stop till you get Enough by Michael Jackson. Weirdly, she had the Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann as well as one of her desert islanders. But anyway, Andy Burnham, Andy Burnham makes quite a lot of this kind of. I'm just, you know, this indie kid from the North. Is he posing or is that for real? Now, my evidence is he did a wonderful piece. I don't know if people know the Quietus. The very fact that he did this piece with the Quietus at all tells us already he's got bona fides. If you. If you are looking for something to subscribe to. The Quietus is very, very, very good on music and culture and it just introduces new things all the time. They did curated playlists and anyway, they do. They do a feature called Baker's Dozen where People choose their favorite 13 albums. So all the evidence we're going on for Andy Burnham is his 13 favorite albums and the stories he tells on each one. Shall we go through a few of them and see if Andy Burnham is actually cool or not? I've made my mind up already, but we'll go through them. He was born in the same year as me, Andy Burnham. And the further you go down this list, the more obvious that becomes. He's got Beatles in there. He's got Smith's Hatfoot of Hollow, which was the year 0 of. Of turning from a kid who likes Culture Club into being an indie kid. That's. Yeah, that's the album that did it for everyone. Andy Burnham's got that on his list. But then he goes for. This is where I start thinking, oh, this guy's for real. He goes to Rum Sodomy and the Lash by the Pogues, their second album, which I think is one of the greatest albums ever written. He says he wants Sick Bed of Kulkulum played at his funeral, which is. I'd say it's a bold choice, Andy, but you absolutely go for it. But the definitive thing with Rum Sodomy and the Lash by the Pogues is if you are Andy Burnham's special advisor, you wouldn't say, oh, and by the way, at number three, I put Rum Sodomy in the Lash by the Pogues. That is. Oh, no.

[Marina Hyde]

I believe all of this. You can't talk about them in the way that he has talked about them without absolutely. It being completely real and authentic. We're gonna come later to whether even things that are authentic can seem inauthentic in the world of politics. But I 100% believe all of this.

[Richard Osman]

He goes for the Stone Roses. I mean, Andy Burnham could not be more Northwestern if he tried. He's from Liverpool, was an mp, and Lee was mayor of Manchester. So I think very cleverly, almost uniquely, manages to have a foot in both of those camps.

[Marina Hyde]

He created this kind of overarching Northern identity that somehow managed to bring them together.

[Richard Osman]

Imagine if he'd done that for a Southern identity. Imagine how much the country would absolutely hate him. They go, this guy, he goes, you know what? I'm a little bit Guilford and a little bit Godalming. That's me and that's Andy. So the story, when he talks about the Stone Roses, which is his fourth album, which, again, you can't be an indie kid in any way whatsoever and not have the first Stone Roses album on there, but he talks about how he used to go to the Hacienda.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, but on the Thursday, not the

[Richard Osman]

Friday, the Thursday, which was student night. Saturday was like the, like. Like the big rave night. And he says, you know, I was very much Thursday night, I was a lager guy. They said, did you take ecstasy? He said, you know, I genuinely. I'm not being a politician, I genuinely didn't. We are about to get our first indie kid Prime Minister. I think it'll be a while before we get our first rave Prime Minister, but that'll be next. But you said. He said, I think you'll find David

[Marina Hyde]

Cameron went to a few parties. Yeah, listen, I wouldn't dignify him with rave.

[Richard Osman]

There's no more indie statement than I saw the Fall at the Hacienda. It's absolutely impossible. He also said, and I don't think there's two words in this put together, I don't think a single British Prime Minister has ever said before. And that is, he said, talking about the Hacienda, there would be a few members of Inspiral Carpets hanging around. I don't think anyone who's ever been British Prime Minister has ever referenced Inspiral Carpets before. He also talks about meeting Tony Wilson when he was up in Manchester and how they developed quite a close relationship. And Tony Wilson, before Andy Burnham was the King of the north, was probably the King of the North. And I saw Andy Burnham described the other day as Harold Wilson meets Tony Wilson, which I thought was very nice. He then goes, I mean, here's. Here's where. Here's where we know for a fact that we are going to have an indie kid Prime Minister. His next album is George Best by the Wedding Present. And again, to find out the age of a tree, you cut it down and count the rings. If you want to know the age of a certain man or woman in this country. And they say, one of my favorite albums is Wedding Present is George Best by Wedding Present then they were born in 1970. You can almost. Almost to the month work it out. By the way, a great album. He then goes on to talking of great albums, the Lars by the Lars Liverpool band. But to be someone who recognises that the Lars aren't just. There she goes. And to recognise they released one of the great debut albums in the history of music. We should do like a bonus on the Lars because they were amazing. Billy Bragg. Yes, that's an interesting choice. William Bloke, the album he's gone for when he says Upfield is his favorite song, because, I mean, he's very polarizing. And again, if you were Andy Burnham's spad, you'd be saying, oh, I don't know, are you sure about Billy Bragg? But one of our most tender and beautiful songwriters.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, I think he might have thought Chuck one out for the Corbin Corvin.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, exactly. Radiohead. Okay, Computer. I love all the way through this interview in the Quietest. It's so good because he's saying, yeah, I saw. I saw Radiohead at Glastonry. He said, and it's just after I lost the leadership election to Corbyn. And you realize that this music, which is sort of the music of your kind of. Of teen years or twenties or, you know, literally, these people who've been in the middle of, like, the hugest stories in British politics are sitting there listening to Karma Police, and you're thinking, wow. I mean, those lyrics must hit a bit different if you're trying to run the country. Strokes, he goes for. There's a few more modern things. Big Thief Capacity, which is an amazing album. There's New Order, but I. The one I really, really loved is the Cortinas and Falcon. So. The Cortinas, huge. You know, one of those bands that. The North Absolute. They're like the gods of the North. And he said when he was running for Manchester mayor, him and Steve Rotherham, who was mayor of Liverpool, they went to see the Cortinas and he said there's this song where he says the lyrics are, I'm only a paper boy from the northwest, but I can scrub up what in my Sunday best. And he said, that really felt like me, because I was. You know, that sounds like me. So we were sort of belting this song out and it really felt. Made us feel proud to be from the North. And, you know, this is great guitar music, but that is from a song called. This Interview is about two years ago. And that's from a song called Take over the World. And Andy Burnham said, I love that song and it brings back memories, but sadly, I didn't go on to take over the world. Well, look at you now, Andy.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, this is a suggestion that you can ever be cool as a politician.

[Richard Osman]

Yes, it's an impossibility.

[Marina Hyde]

I think it is a. You can be charismatic and that really matters. And, you know, someone like David Runciman's written really interesting on politicians who are sort of required to be a form of celebrity, but also still be trustworthy. It's interesting, actually, when I was talking to James Cannaghistorian about people, celebrities becoming politicians, what we talked about. One of the things we talked about is that as we. Cause we cycle through these people so quickly now, politicians, celebrities are these kind of great constants in public life. And so in many ways they are seen as more trustworthy than politicians. And what Andy Burnham has actually genuinely tried to do is create an outsider status for himself, which, by the way, I think coolness, almost all. It's very, very hard to be cool when you are the figurehead of a system, for sure. You know, being an outsider is cool. It involves not having to compromise and to be able to dream impossible dreams. Whereas politics, I suppose, is the art of the possible and all about compromising. So you can't really not be cool,

[Richard Osman]

but one thing you can do. And again, you talked to James about it, one thing that is absolutely key is can you be authentic? And I thought the interesting thing going through this list is so Andy has this kind of image of himself as, you know, oh, I'm just a normal guy and I drink lager and this is sort of music. I like this interview in the quietest and this list in the quietest absolutely 100% screams to me authenticity.

[Marina Hyde]

I completely agree with you. I think it's interesting and actually it's quite a niche thing and we're talking about it because we love all those things. We love music and things like that. The more mainstream things that politicians will try and even authentically attach themselves to. I mean, if you look at Keir Starmer, he plays five or side football once a week. He really loves football. He is a completely authentic football fan. He cannot basically hardly even talk about football because it's football and because we're in the middle of the World cup. It's really interesting. Cass Horovitz, who is a sort of comms guru, he was a comms guru for Rishi Sunak. He did a post on LinkedIn just before the World Cups started, saying, politicians, please just don't post about the World cup this summer, saying. And he said that talking about football has become the ultimate high stakes authenticity trap because the public immediately assume it's a calculated focus group play to neutralize your elite narrative and prove that you are a regular person. And it's really honestly, anytime, even politicians who absolutely love football, you'll know it used to happen much more just try and stay away from it to some degree because it just always looks like bandwagoning. And strange as it may seem, we literally do not know, need to know or certainly don't care what cabinet minister thinks about football. I noticed Farage was doing. He is, by the way, I want to talk about him, actually, because I think he's. In terms of his cultural hinterland, I believe it is. I mean, I talk about the tech. Yeah. I've talked about the tech barons not having one. He has absolutely nothing. I once interviewed him and just honestly, for something. I think I've talked about this on the podcast before, but I'm going to mention it again because I think it is so weird. I said, tim, what's your favorite. You know, what's your favorite film? And he. He literally just couldn't. What was clear is not that he couldn't think what his favorite film would be or what be a good film to be his favorite. He couldn't think of the title of a film. And in the end he said, what? You know, that got the person. And then he remembered Four Weddings in a Funeral. But he. For some reason, he obviously didn't want to say that. So he said, you know who, the guy who did that. So I said, richard Curtis. I was like, love, actually. He's like, yeah, love, actually. I was thinking, there's just no way that your favorite film is La Vaccine. There's just no way. But also the fact that you couldn't even think of it. I mean, just say the Great Escape or Dambusters or something.

[Richard Osman]

Bridge on the River. Quiet.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, come on.

[Richard Osman]

That's easy.

[Marina Hyde]

He literally couldn't think of one. I believe he has zero cultural hinterland at all. I can't imagine there's a big. I think there's some discourse about, like, why isn't he on desert islanders? What would he authentically choose? You're telling me that guy ever listens to music, ever watches anything? He doesn't exist. He doesn't have that. If you cannot name a film, as in you literally can't think of the name of a film. It's ridiculous. And so for him, I think the idea of having. Whereas for someone like Obama, now, Obama, you knew, had a mega cultural hinterland and they became sort of curators even during the time he would put out stuff of what he was listening to. Was he cool? I don't know. I mean, he was probably the person who most people thought as a politician had something closer to cool than anyone else.

[Richard Osman]

If he isn't cool, and I don't think he quite is, then it is impossible for a politician.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

To be cool. So his. Yeah, his curated music lists are always extraordinary. I think the most recent has Kendrick Lamar, Chapel Rowan Rosa, Leah, the Burner Boy is On there, I mean, you know, absolutely. But again, so beautifully curated. You kind of think, ah, is there more than one hand in this? I don't know, there's a little bit of everything. I quite like Andy Burnham's list because there's. There's sort of not a little bit of everything in there. It's really just kind of know this and then this and then this and then this. But yeah, I think that if Barack Obama is not cool, then no one's ever going to be cool and be a politician.

[Marina Hyde]

Some people found him cool all the way through. And of course once the bits that people couldn't get quite so much on board with, like the extrajudicial killings and so on, have faded into the background and worse has replaced it or whatever, then people have a sort of glow about him. But he could deliver lines brilliantly. So when he did things like the White House Correspondent Dinner and he would do it was like watching a stand up to. Obviously he was a great public speaker. But I remember there was one time when I think he did literally just drop the mic at the end of it. You're like, okay, yes, extremely professional and well done.

[Richard Osman]

But I do think, and again, we're not. This is not talking about politics at all, but I do think that the one thing you need in the current media climate is authenticity. And I just thought it was interesting looking at that list of albums and thinking, well, certainly in this area he has an authenticity, has an ability to talk, talk with an authenticity he has. And don't forget, some people just aren't authentic. Some people never find out who they are. And this is a guy who does seem to have a good idea of who he is. And if you can get that across, then it will serve him very well.

[Marina Hyde]

But yeah, versus the bond markets. I can't wait to find out who wins.

[Richard Osman]

I do. You know what? Genuinely, I put my money on the Lars. Knowing Lee Mavis, I think I can absolutely see it actually on the album iou. I mean there's a lot about monetary policy in there. If you only know the last from there she goes, then, my God, have a. Have a listen to that whole album. It's just a work of genius. He disowned it, Lee Mavis. He just can't. He went through every great producer there was and just said, no, this is all terrible. This is not what I'm hearing in my head. And even now says that the album is awful. But he is wrong about that. No, it's an extraordinary record and that authenticity means I can definitively answer the question, are we about to have our first indie kid, Prime Minister? Yes, I believe we are. He has, he has all the bona fides. He has the credentials. I'm not, by the way, making a valid judgment and saying it's a good thing. I'm just saying, as a, as a 1980s and 90s indie kid myself, he is definitely one.

[Marina Hyde]

It's a true thing.

[Richard Osman]

It's a true thing.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay, moving on from Andy Burnham, Quentin Tarantino. I love it when he pops up.

[Richard Osman]

Yes.

[Marina Hyde]

Has made another foray into the discourse to say that there have been no good movies. This is. Was a couple of weeks ago, he said, there are no. No good movies since the lockdown, since the pandemic. And he said they, he, they were all defined movies since then by flaws, implausibilities, audience pandering, miscast performers, or just plain stupid shit. Okay. I personally love that he's out there talking about. I love all the positions he takes. He always sparks something and we'll get onto what he sparks in a minute. He does always spark something. He, you know, he's only, he's always said, I'm only going to make 10 films. I personally wish he'd do more. I absolutely love it. You know what he's doing next, which I could not be more here for?

[Richard Osman]

Yes. A play. Right.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. He's going to write and direct a West End farce set in the 1830s called the popinjay Cavalier. And he's doing it with Sonja Friedman, the fantastic theater producer, and also Sony. So there's some suggestion that Sony Pictures. There's some suggestion that, you know, if it takes off, then maybe he'll turn

[Richard Osman]

that into his final film and it's for real. And they're doing table reads at the moment as we speak, so it is definitely for real.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, I know. I literally, I am all over that. Okay. And I love that he takes these strong positions. Whatever you think about him, he certainly. He puts stuff out there. I don't think he's right. I mean, look at what's happening in horror. There's been lots of good things.

[Richard Osman]

By the way, he doesn't think he's right either.

[Marina Hyde]

I don't think he's right. It's just some stupid shit he said.

[Richard Osman]

Exactly.

[Marina Hyde]

But Gen Z are going to the theaters. We're having a sort of correction from Franchise IP in the way that all of these things he would like. And I think that streaming, in a way, tv and obviously lots of people migrated to Telev but television is now so, so expensive, paradoxically, that you know your series is going to cost, I don't know what, 120 million. You've got to make lots of them. That in a way, people. I think it's an interesting time and a time of flux. And I disagree that there have been no good films since the Pandemic.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

Do we have to do this top three? Which I do.

[Richard Osman]

Well, I've got a top three of my favorite films since the. Since the Pandemic, Yes. Do you have a top three?

[Marina Hyde]

I do. One is a bit of a cheat, but yes.

[Richard Osman]

Cheat how? Well, listen, we'll get to it, okay? Number three.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay, Number three.

[Richard Osman]

You see, I have to say the numbers now just because I absolutely don't trust you.

[Marina Hyde]

Even now is. Nope. Which it had a terrible title, but it's. It is in the horror genre. It's Jordan Peele. It's really, it's actually really good and it's a shame it's not completely clear what it is, but it's all about us not filming things and not being able to look away even when it's dangerous. It's really, it's really good and it's so. It epitomizes that. Number two, I really absolutely loved the Souvenir Part two. And this is a bit of a small one because lots of people won't have seen this, but if you haven't seen Joanna Hogg's work, the Souvenir itself is amazing. This is a sequel to it. It's a sort of semi autobiographical story about a young filmmaker. And Souvenir Part two is amazing. And number one, I am going to say Barbenheimer and I know that's unfair,

[Richard Osman]

but what I want to say, that's fine, that's okay.

[Marina Hyde]

But it's because what it showed us,

[Richard Osman]

the moment of it.

[Marina Hyde]

Look at this extraordinary. Look at this extraordinary thing. It is a possibility that rose up organically as a phenomenon. But here is someone making a film about something extreme. I mean, it's Christopher Nolan, the director is the star. He's making something extremely. You know, you're making a film about the Manhattan Project and then also here is a movie effectively made in the service of a toy company, but nonetheless manages to be kind of staggeringly original and cool and bring masses of people to theater. So I would say that both of those and the fact, the phenomenon of them being yoked together was very, very cool. And it was. It showed you of all of a whole range of possibilities within filmmaking.

[Richard Osman]

So. Nope, Souvenir Part two, Barb and Heimer

[Marina Hyde]

in some order, but I'll do it in that order.

[Richard Osman]

Well, that's the order you've done it, so that's fine. So your favorite film was Barbenheimer.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay, I'm going to say that of those three, but because of what it represented. Yes, yes. But actually probably Souvenir Poetry.

[Richard Osman]

I'm gonna go for three sort of comedies in a way, but I mean, not. I mean, all sort of bittersweet comedies. Rylane is my number three. The Rain Allen Miller movie. The sort of South London rom com with David Johnson written by Nathan Bryan and Tom Melia. It's a really, really, really funny, cute, charming, beautifully made movie that you just think, oh, how lovely to see something so perfectly formed. I've yet to meet anyone who didn't enjoy it. Number two, I'm gonna go for the whole day. The Alexander Payne movie. Paul Giamitti, where he's. He's sort of. I think it's set in the early 1970s and he's a teacher who has to look after all the kids who.

[Marina Hyde]

At a boarding school.

[Richard Osman]

At a boarding school who don't go home for Christmas. Fact, there's just one kid in the end. And it's again, really, really, really beautiful movie. And number one, it won't surprise you. I haven't gone for Barbenheimer. I've gone for the Ballad of Wallace Island.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, I knew you were going to get it.

[Richard Osman]

Tom Baston and Tim Key. It's such a beautiful, funny film with those. There's three films there, none of which outstay their welcome, all of which have just beautiful writing. Beautiful.

[Marina Hyde]

None of which costs crazy amounts of money at all.

[Richard Osman]

And again, I absolutely get what Tarantino says because he has a very visceral approach to filmmaking. He wants something new and spectacular, something that shocks him and surprises him. And none of these movies would do that to him. But all of these movies, if you're a writer or if you have any sort of love in your heart, I think you would enjoy all three of them.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay, so now to get onto what it's sparked. Obviously, the minute he says something like this, everyone's like, great. This is a hook for us to publish lots of lists of things that are actually good, like we've just done. But one thing about that and this new idea of these lists coming out all the time, this is now like a genre, a vertical. It is an entire permanently reiterating editorial product. Really interesting appointment. Very recently, the New York Times has appointed someone called Gilbert Cruise to be their head of canon. Now, he used to run the book review section. There's a very small. Some people say, oh, maybe they didn't do so well in the book review section. Is he being sort of moved aside? But actually, this is a whole new job. They've never had a head of canon before. Now, in terms of what is canon,

[Richard Osman]

it's like the Civil War.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, I know, yeah. The word itself has been invented sort of, it's gone over many, many times. It started actually in the 1300s where canon meant the collection of books of the Bible that were accepted by the Christian church as genuine and inspired by the 20th century. It sort of meant the classics and fandoms talk about canon, you know, the sort of body of works taking place in their particular fictional world that they can't, you know. And that started really, the Manchester Guardian, apparently in 1933, had said, oh, just because a story contains the word elementary, my dear Watson, it doesn't mean it's part of the official Sherlock Holmes canon. And you know, you've got all these, these fandoms to watch. Star Wars. Is this canon? Is this just off canon? Whatever it is. But the New York Times has appointed someone for this to do this job permanently, which seems odd, but these lists now form a huge amount of what you read online. And we had, we used to have lists, they didn't exist in the same way. We would have power lists. You know, people do a media power list like once a year. But it was kind of niche, it was almost industry. Or you'd get trade publications doing them, or you'd get the Sunday Times Rich list. Then you'd have the Listicle era, Buzzfeed and all those sort of things. But it is now one of the most important things in digital media. And it's happened very, very quickly. And you'll notice this happens all the time. And what they are really saying, the New York Times, is that the most successful products, cultural products that they produce are not criticism any longer. They are these giant definitive lists, these proprietary rankings of, of books or films or restaurants or whatever it is.

[Richard Osman]

I'm all in favor.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. And it's become a huge market movie. You know, these books, books. If once they say, you know, the top 50 books of this century or whatever it is, they reprint with that on the COVID They're not just quick listicles. You'll notice that something's changed. It's not just a kind of quick thing. You've got to get buy in from all your biggest critics and from you know, say you're doing movies, you get directors to cut it and you, and you. This was the panel that chose this. Yeah, but what you're creating there is something. First of all, they're obviously saying this is one of our most important business products that we create. And what you're saying as well is this is an evergreen piece of updatable content. There are a mass market content format now and they do so much better than reviews every time. The Guardian does this a lot, you'll notice that they have, you know, the 10 best, the 20 best somethings ranked and those always perform incredibly well. Furthermore, they last longer. They're sort of evergreen. They. Then they sit on your, on your site and people come back and back to them and they use them as a form of curation. And that thing that we keep talking about, taste and how taste is becoming in such a sort of noisy and crowded world, really important. If you, the. These kind of big legacy media brands are moving increasingly into these things where they can, you can keep updating the list and you can change it and it can become. But these are the most significant cultural products they produce, not criticism and reviews anything.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, because, you know, we have, we have enough, we have enough canon now in various different areas that the new has become slightly less interesting and less important and actually just constant ways of dipping into the old I think is fascinating. I did that Guardian Top 100 Books thing where you had to do your, you know, 10 favorite books. And of it when, when, when they put it out, the, the comments underneath were just, they go, oh my God, where's this? Where's X? And actually, funnily enough, the Guardian had done it in quite a smart way. They got loads and loads of writers, Stephen King, all sorts of people did it. And not only could you look at the top 100, but you could click on any person you wanted and read their top 10 and read their comments about it. So people say, where's X? Where's Y? You think, well, there's going to look in some of the lists. You don't have to just look at the top 100. That's literally just, you know, everyone's votes are put together. That's why Middle March is number one. I know you think it's boring, but like a lot, lot of writers for whatever reason don't think it's boring. And like my top 10, I, I have Middlemarch on it, but there was only two of my top 10 were in the top hundreds. But you can click on mine and look through my favorite 10 books. And, you know, that's useful to people. I know, I know. I mean, I'm someone who will always buy the book that's out this week. But most people want to look back through 200 years of literature and go, what shouldn't I read?

[Marina Hyde]

What I should do.

[Richard Osman]

You know, when the New York Times did its some best books of the 21st century and, you know, I looked through that and that's where I discovered Lonesome Dove. Or that's when I realized, oh, I really should read Lonesome Dove. And I've been banging on about how brilliant that is. That was it, funny enough in my top 10. And someone said to me, why is everyone talking about Lonesome Dove all of a sudden? I think, well, because it was in that list. It's a really, really good way of rediscovering things. It's a really good way of discovering things that may be kind of passed you by a bit. And if you look at writers like, you know, Barbara Pym, for example, who's been, you know, rediscovered her brilliant things for the second time, but, you know, a lot of that is from lists. A lot of that is from people saying, you know, what are the 10 most overlooked novels? Who are the 10 writers we should be?

[Marina Hyde]

Not everyone wants to say the Great Gatsby. Sometimes people would like to say, yeah,

[Richard Osman]

you want to recommend things that you think actually, or maybe people won't have, won't know this. I mean, I love this.

[Marina Hyde]

Traffic stays so gold for the publishers who are publishing these things because people

[Richard Osman]

go, people say, what are the best books of all time?

[Marina Hyde]

Can you help me out here? Yeah. So it's really interesting that these, that these lists have actually become enormous and huge. And I think that's not going to be the last head of canon you see.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, well, funnily enough, he sent me an email which I thought was spam. So that Gilbert Cruz is the guy's name.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, Gilbert Cruz, yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Asking about the best crime novels all time. I thought it was spam. And you better dig it out of your inbox, Gilbert. I apologize. I had not realized that. But it also leads me on neatly to. I'm doing some bonus episodes which are essentially what is the best ever. I love this US sitcom. What's the best ever UK game show? But I'm, I'm doing it in my traditional, you know, World cup of yes thing. I'll have a couple of guests on. We'll talk about, you know, all the best things there possibly are and, and, and find A winner. The first. The first one we're doing is U.S. sitcoms. What's the best ever U.S. sitcom? And, you know, because. Because the, The.

[Marina Hyde]

The.

[Richard Osman]

The great James Burrows passed away this week, who directed Friends and Frasier and Cheers. I mean, and did more than direct those things as well. So we're gonna find John Robbins and Maisie Adam joining me. We're gonna find the greatest US Sitcom. That one I think we're gonna make free to everyone after that. It's. It's for members, which we're dying for that. Yes, I think it's gonna be an awful lot of fun. Listen, I mean, you know, we talked about authenticity just now. I cannot be authentic without saying I love a list. I love putting things against each other and seeing what wins the market. Yeah, so does the World Cup.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

Recommendations?

[Richard Osman]

Do you know what Ingrid is filming at the moment? And she's. She is. Can't say what in. But she's being an astronaut. And so we've been watching. Watching lots of astronaut things just to see what they're like when they're in the. When. When they're in their craft. And we watched Return to Space, which is about the growth of the SpaceX, and I absolutely loved it. It's really, really extraordinary. There's quite a lot of Elon Musk in it, and actually there's quite a lot of Elon Musk acting like a human being in it and showing some emotion, but also sort of showing what it is that he's achieved there. But the main thing about it is, is the astronauts and the people behind the scenes, the technicians and the people who work on this stuff. I just. It makes you realize what an extraordinary endeavor going to space is and what a team you need to do that. So I absolutely love that Return to Space and that's on Netflix. I thought it was absolutely fascinating. I loved it. How about you?

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, my God, I can't believe the pettiness of mine compared to the. Of that. Okay, I want to recommend a trailer which I sent to you on your holiday, and I sincerely hope you watched. Please, can you just everyone watch the trailer for a new National Geographic documentary? Docudrama maybe.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

Which I think is gonna be on Disney, in which Tom Hiddleston is playing time detective to go back and solve the mystery of the final hours of Pompeii. I think it's called Pompeii out of Time. I'm gonna find a way of making you do a full item on it, because it's. If you are an ironic admirer of Tom Hiddleston's intensity as I am, There is so much to enjoy in this trailer that I just want, you know, do your homework guys, and then we can talk. And I'm just gonna find a way of forcing it. And the other thing I would like to recommend.

[Richard Osman]

You're not just gonna recommend a trailer?

[Marina Hyde]

No, I'm going to recommend Roy Keane being Roy Keane's rant on he was asked by Gary Neville on the Overlap podcaster put something into football room 101 and he chose wags who put their husband's names on the back of the shirt and then photographed themselves. It's so special. Judge Roy Keane has allowed that for the children of players. He was like, we know who you're married to. You'll be separated within a I love you, Roy Keane. I love you. It's just, it's very special.

[Richard Osman]

Roy Keane is sort of the Quentin Tarantino of football, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. So our bonus episode this week, Marina

[Marina Hyde]

is the final episode of the Vibe Shift that the series I did with James Cannagas for a minute. It's about the sort of end of Peak woke and where things are going now. It's really interesting and if you want

[Richard Osman]

to be a member, it's the restlessentertainment.com you get all those bonus episodes. You get ad free listening all of that stuff. As always, you do not have to be a member. And for everyone else, we will see you for a Q and A on Thursday.

[Marina Hyde]

See you on Thursday.

[Richard Osman]

Hello everyone. We've got some exciting news to share with the listeners of the Rest is Entertainment.

[Marina Hyde]

We do indeed. We are holding a summer sale so you can become a member of the club for a third off the regular price.

[Richard Osman]

That's right. With the code Summer26 you can head to thereses entertainment.com and claim an annual membership with this brilliant discount.

[Marina Hyde]

So if you want to spend your summer listening to us discussing celebrity drama, behind the scenes stories and industry gossip, but have none of the ads. And why wouldn't you? It is a no brainer.

[Richard Osman]

Plus you can catch up with all of the archive of our members only shows you may have missed, including Marina's latest series Vibe Shift.

[Marina Hyde]

And we've got lots more of those special series planned. But remember, this deal will only run until the end of August, so don't wait around. Head to therestase entertainment.com now starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com SpecialOff Athletic Brewing Co. Crafts Award winning non alcoholic beers for those who want to be part of every round.

[Richard Osman]

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[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

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[Marina Hyde]

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