Beckham's Nepo Baby Nightmare

Summary

The Rest Is Entertainment – "Beckham's Nepo Baby Nightmare"

Date: May 11, 2026
Hosts: Richard Osman & Marina Hyde
Main Theme: A sharp, insider analysis of nepo babies, entertainment industry dynasties, and behind-the-scenes drama in showbiz, focusing this week on the Beckham family, celebrity child ventures, the fallout from a major Hollywood feud, and the jungle of unscripted TV.

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the phenomenon of "nepo babies"—celebrity children inheriting opportunities in showbiz—using the latest examples from pop culture. Richard and Marina take a critical look at how fame and family legacy shape the careers (and businesses) of the next generation, especially in cases like Harper Beckham's anticipated skincare line and North West's musical debut. The hosts also dissect the high-profile Blake Lively/Justin Baldoni legal settlement and its impact on all involved, before turning to trends in British reality TV, including ITV's much-hyped but underperforming "The Neighbourhood," and close with some industry recommendations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. BAFTAs Reflection and Award Show Politics

Timestamps: 02:08–03:17

• Richard recaps a "remorselessly unsuccessful" BAFTA night for his show, with a behind-the-curtain glimpse into how presenters are treated and the feel of near-miss moments.
• Notable Quote (Richard Osman, 02:18):

  “I did think maybe a sympathy bafta, but nothing… as we were getting closer to our award, we hadn't been collected. I thought, oh my God, this is it, we've finally done it… and no, we still didn't win.”

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2. Nepo Babies: Harper Beckham & North West in the Spotlight

Timestamps: 03:17–13:14

A. Harper Beckham's Skincare Brand Launch

• Victoria Beckham’s daughter Harper (age 14) set to launch "Haiku by Harper," a skincare brand for tweens.
• Hosts challenge the rationale and morality of thrusting children into public-facing commercial activity.
• Points out the contradiction of claiming a “normal childhood” while facilitating media exposure.
• Criticism of the luxury skincare trend targeting ever-younger girls.
• Notable Quote (Marina Hyde, 07:41):

  “Is she going to be a CEO at 14? I don’t know. Is she going to be a billionaire at 18?”

• Marina highlights influencer culture: kids as young as 5 unboxing products online, calling it “incredibly bleak.”

B. North West's Music Release

• North West, daughter of Kim Kardashian and Kanye West, debuts an EP at age 12, “Northwest Forever,” generating millions of streams.
• Richard and Marina acknowledge some talent but discuss how access is the privilege, not necessarily merit.
• Raises questions about the role of parents and the lack of boundaries for children of celebrities.
• Notable Quote (Richard Osman, 10:57):

  “Almost all [celebrity] children do have a normal life, by the way. The Beckhams are the exception—there’s always this sense that they are only suited for branches of show business.”

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3. The Nepotism Debate: Nature, Nurture & Opportunity

Timestamps: 13:14–22:36

• Richard addresses common arguments defending nepotism: many children follow their parents’ careers across professions (doctors, teachers, construction).
• Sport as a contrast: In sports, success across generations is rare compared to acting, which routinely produces successful dynasties.
• Lengthy list of Oscar-winning/nominated acting families (Coppolas, Fondas, Douglases, etc.) vs. the rarity in elite sports.
• The difference lies in access: “being in the room” is the real privilege.
• Notable Quote (Richard Osman, 19:50):

  “You have to get into the room. And Bryan Cranston got [his daughter] into that room. Once she’s in the room, that’s her business. But almost no one can get in.”

• Marina underlines the wider issue: Nepotism isn’t just entertainment—it’s the running principle of society (“the entire history of capital”).

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4. Blake Lively & Justin Baldoni: The Fallout from a Hollywood Feud

Timestamps: 28:03–38:20

• Coverage of the pre-trial settlement in the public legal feud following "It Ends With Us."
• Dissection of reputational carnage from discovery: toxic emails among Sony execs, the facade of Hollywood diplomacy versus private hostility.
• Blake Lively’s brand, once poised to ascend, now seen as "commercially toxic" due to leaked correspondence and PR disasters.
• Justin Baldoni’s career path viewed as all but derailed: "I said, bye, bye, Justin. I stand by that particular verdict."
• Ryan Reynolds surprisingly caught in the blast radius; his "Teflon" image damaged by personal texts entering the public.
• Marina’s advice: “Never litigate unless it’s desperate” — the risks now outweigh the rewards, given the power of internet scrutiny.
• Notable Quote (Marina Hyde, 34:34):

  “I would launch a podcast called ‘Blake Lively is Commercially Toxic’—that’s a great title.”

• Insight: Legal disputes used to be invisible; now, one viral leak can undo years of careful reputation management.

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5. TV Flops & The State of Unscripted Entertainment

Timestamps: 38:27–45:50

ITV’s "The Neighbourhood" as Cautionary Tale

• Described as a “poster boy for TV flops” with heavy investment and major host (Graham Norton), yet tanked at half a million viewers.
• Industry trend: UK broadcasters now place fewer big-budget bets (“big swings”), making each flop far more visible.
• In defense, Richard and Marina note the randomness of hits and emphasize that “derivative” ideas are standard—the real trick is execution.
• Notable Quote (Richard Osman, 42:20):

  “There’s only one way to draw people in, that’s to make a show that people want to watch... Every single person at home, if they were working at ITV, would commission this.”

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6. The Rise of the Reality TV "Reunion" Show

Timestamps: 45:50–49:25

• Discussion of chaotic “I’m a Celeb All Stars” reunion episode: live London final, on-air drama, and a new afterlife for reality TV through podcasts and internet discourse.
• Marked as a very “American” trend—reunion shows now perpetuate storylines and fuel broader entertainment content ecosystems.

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7. Richard Osman’s ITV Announcement

Timestamps: 49:41–51:44

• Richard announces he’ll host “Golden Elevators,” a new autumn ITV quiz show by Studio Lambert (makers of “The Traitors”), promising a big cash prize (£100,000) and the “sense of occasion” he loves in TV.
• Happy to be doing just eight episodes for balance with writing.

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8. Recommendations

Timestamps: 51:56–53:13

• Both recommend "Legends" (Netflix), a crime show by Neil Forsyth (“the Gold”), praised for witty, character-driven writing, “Guy Ritchie with a sense of humor.”
• Also plug both series of “The Gold” (BBC).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Richard Osman (05:43): “Kids can do whatever they want at any time, that’s all fine. And parents want the best for their children. Everything else is on the table.”
• Marina Hyde (10:07): “It’s just the absolute jackboot of the patriarchy down on your neck from what, the age of five or six, you’re doing unboxing skincare videos. It’s awful. And we shouldn’t think it’s wonderful.”
• Richard Osman (20:26): “You have to get into the room. And most people don’t know where the room is.”
• Marina Hyde (21:28): “Don’t think for one second that the entire history of capital isn’t about nepo babies… that’s how our world runs.”
• Marina Hyde (36:54): “The scorched earth. Let’s move to the Cotswolds.”
• Richard Osman (45:13): “You want to be derivative, but incredibly entertaining. Studio Lambert… do it absolutely brilliantly.”

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Timeline of Important Segments

• 02:08 – 03:17: BAFTA aftermath, award show insights
• 03:20 – 13:14: Nepo babies, Harper Beckham and North West case studies
• 13:14 – 22:36: Sociology of nepotism; nature, nurture, opportunity, and access
• 28:03 – 38:20: Hollywood feud: Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni, and Ryan Reynolds
• 38:27 – 45:50: British TV flops, big swings, "The Neighbourhood"
• 45:50 – 49:25: TV reunion shows, "I'm a Celeb All Stars" fallout
• 49:41 – 51:44: Richard's new ITV quiz announcement
• 51:56 – 53:13: Recommendations: "Legends" and "The Gold"

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

• Insightful, sardonically funny, and deeply connected to the entertainment industry’s hidden workings.
• The hosts balance empathy for children of celebrities with sharp criticism of the parents’ choices and the structures that perpetuate exclusivity.
• Striking a balance between industry realism (“everything is a derivative, what matters is making it sing”) and sociopolitical awareness (“nepotism is the engine behind society”).
• For anyone interested in the media’s inner workings, this episode is a candid, critical, and highly entertaining guide.

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Transcript

[Marina Hyde]

The rest is entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now, the moment someone becomes properly famous, they stop traveling as a person and they start traveling as a situation. And yes, I am talking about the world of entourages.

[Richard Osman]

It's amazing anytime you do a TV show when someone properly famous comes on, it's sort of you can just have a spread bet as to how many people they're going to bring with them.

[Marina Hyde]

Most people don't actually need a bodyguard and a fixer and a straw lady, but not having to start from scratch every single time you get in contact with someone is actually undeniably appealing.

[Richard Osman]

So Octopus Energy, you know, anytime you ever ring any company, you start from scratch right from the beginning. Again with Octopus Energy, they recognize your number and that goes through to a very, very small team of around 10 people who are there to deal with you. So you will almost certainly be dealing with someone who you have dealt with before. That's the Octopus Energy entourage that they have built around you.

[Marina Hyde]

A great satisfaction not having to tell your story for new every single time, which I think most major celebrities also feel. Girl, winter is so last season and now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders that perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch.

[Richard Osman]

Done.

[Marina Hyde]

Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit Red Bull.com BrightSummerAhead to learn more. See you this summer. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rest Is Entertainment with me, Marina

[Richard Osman]

Hyde and me, Richard Osman. Hello, everyone. Hey, Marina.

[Marina Hyde]

How are you, Richard?

[Richard Osman]

I'm all right. It was the baftas last night. Another remorselessly unsuccessful one for House of Games.

[Marina Hyde]

Your streak is now incredible and sadly, it's your loss.

[Richard Osman]

That's me done.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes, lost eligibility.

[Richard Osman]

So I did think maybe a sympathy bafta, but nothing. You know, genuinely, this is how these award ceremonies work. I was giving out an award as well. You presented an award to Martin and so when you do that, someone comes to get you from your seat to take you around to the bat in advance of doing it. But the one I was giving out was quite soon after the daytime bafta. And so she said, oh, and of course if you've won, then actually I'll collect you from the side of the stage, not from the audience. And as we were getting closer to our award, we hadn't been collected. I thought, oh my God, this is it, we've finally done it. This team, this wonderful team, I can leave them with this BAFTA for nine years of this incredible work and no, we still didn't win. But there it is.

[Marina Hyde]

Thank you for taking me inside of the act. I'd like to say awards Last.

[Richard Osman]

I'd like to say we had a fun evening, but even then. But do you know what, to be fair, scam Interceptors at one it. I was delighted with that. I was delighted that Katherine Parkinson won.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, that was terrific.

[Richard Osman]

Delighted. Last One Laughing won as well. And I thought Greg Davis did a great job as well. So that was my BAFTAs.

[Marina Hyde]

Right, what are we talking about today, Richard?

[Richard Osman]

We've got a fun one today. We're talking about Nepo babies in a very specific way. There's a couple of absolutely jaw dropping bits of Nepo babe osity that have turned up in the last week or so and I'm gonna do sociological deep dive into what it actually means being a Nepo babe. And don't people just do what their parents do anyway? And don't we pass down our genes to our kids anyway? So I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and debunk a few of those myths.

[Marina Hyde]

I am looking forward to that. We will be taking a look at the blast radius of the final settlement in the Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni pre trial settlement. That case has supposedly gone away, but we're gonna be looking at who of those three principals, how their careers have been damaged and when I'm talking about the three principals, I'm obviously talking about Blake and Ryan Reynolds and of course

[Richard Osman]

generationally they're kids because you know it's going to affect their Nepo careers in the future.

[Marina Hyde]

Bring the Nepos in all the way through.

[Richard Osman]

And we're also going to have a little chat about ITV Entertainment. There's a new show called the Neighbourhood which has become sort of a poster boy for TV flops and we're going to talk about whether that's fair or not. And a little bit of inside gossip about all the I'm a celebrity Hoo ha. As well. And also I've got a little ITV announcement of my own, which we'll put in there too.

[Marina Hyde]

Right, let's get on to the Nepos.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. Shall we?

[Marina Hyde]

In the last week or so, a bit longer, there have been a number of sort of Nepo announcements or pre announcements, I would say. Northwest.

[Richard Osman]

Yes.

[Marina Hyde]

The 12 year old daughter of Kim Kardashian and Kanye west has released an ep. There's six tracks and it's called Northwest Forever.

[Richard Osman]

I'm just going to look at the. How many plays it's had on Spotify.

[Marina Hyde]

It's been relatively well received, I should say.

[Richard Osman]

Do you know what? It's actually not bad. Yeah, it's actually not bad, but of course it's not bad because, you know, yeah. 24 million likes for childlike things, piercing on my hand. 3 million listens.

[Marina Hyde]

I mean, listen, that's all about piercing on our hand.

[Richard Osman]

That'd do you at 12 years old in there. I mean, come on.

[Marina Hyde]

Harper Beckham is. The Beckhams are trademarking something called Haiku by Harper, which is apparently going to be a skincare beauty brand.

[Richard Osman]

She's 14.

[Marina Hyde]

She is 14. So maybe we'll start with her, shall we?

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, shall we? It's such a tricky one because we'll say a number of things which is. Well, I'll say a couple of. Just a couple of revisers which make me more comfortable talking about it. Kids can do whatever they want at any time, that's all fine. And parents want the best for their children. Those are the two provisos. Everything else is on the table.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. I would say that her mother's brand is doing very well, actually. Weirdly, Victoria Beckham's skincare and beauty does miles better than the fashion and is potentially her route into becoming a huge kind of sellable company. Now there's very strong rumors that Harper is going to launch her own brand. She's 14 and it's going to be called Haikyuu by Harper. It's interesting that the Beckham name isn't in there, I think for a brand that tends to put its name in everything.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. You think people won't make the connection?

[Marina Hyde]

I. I don't know. It's interesting that it's not in there, but whether or not it's happening, I think for sure it's happening because Victoria has already started sort of laying a backstory on the various things she's done to promote her own beauty brand, saying she's been sitting on my knee for meetings ever since. She was tiny. Oh. Like all tweens, she ruined her skin by having skincare that wasn't ready for it. And she wants to create something that's particular in that age space, as we know. I mean, we've certainly covered on the podcast before, although never enough. The phenomenon of tween skincare and tween obsession with extremely expensive high end skincare.

[Richard Osman]

Yes. Which we didn't seem to used to need.

[Marina Hyde]

Which we didn't seem to used to need. I mean, as I, you know, like to say to them all, your skin will literally never be better than it is right now if you do nothing. And she's made a number of public appearances. She made presented an award to her mother at a Harper's event maybe a year or so ago. But recently she was sort of on hand for a beauty launch that Victoria did during the school term, which I don't know. In New York.

[Richard Osman]

Come on.

[Marina Hyde]

I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I.

[Richard Osman]

You can't miss double French for that.

[Marina Hyde]

I mean, sadly, as I've said, there is a space for this. Brands are now targeting under tens skincare brands. You see people putting their daughters as young as five or six influencers with their own daughters doing unboxing of products. I, I mean, it is incredibly bleak. Is she going to be a CEO at 14? I don't know.

[Richard Osman]

Is she going to be a billionaire at 18? So if you own a skincare brand, if you're Victoria Beckham, let's say you're a normal skincare brand owner, Two decisions. Firstly, do I launch skincare brand aimed at teens who don't particularly need it? Okay, so that's a choice. That's a choice that capitalism has always made. And they'll always say at the end, actually, yes, I do, because my competitors will do this, so I need to do it as well. And all I'm doing is serving a market. That's all I'm doing.

[Marina Hyde]

If I'm not growing, I'm failing.

[Richard Osman]

If I'm not growing, I'm failing. Exactly. So, you know, I get that. Then do you think I've really, really been in the news recently because we've really fallen out with one of our children because he's been in the public eye since he was a child.

[Marina Hyde]

Please may I quote the statement?

[Richard Osman]

Yes.

[Marina Hyde]

From Brooklyn. My family values public promotion and endorsements above all else. Bran Beckham comes first. Family love is decided by how much you post on social media or how quickly you drop everything to show up and pose for a family photo op.

[Richard Osman]

There'll be plenty of people listening to this in the car who will have 14 year olds in the back of the car. And what an insane way to bring up a child. It is insane. There will be people. Last years of the Apprentice, the woman who won Charisma, who is absolutely brilliant and had exactly this story. She had, you know, trouble with her skin when she was a teen. Nothing worked for her. And so what she did, she went and got a degree in biochemistry and then has built a brand and then went on the Apprentice and won the Apprentice and, you know, and is brilliant. She's absolutely sensationally brilliant. There are Victoria Beckham knows this very well. Swathes of 14 year olds who have issues with skincare products who are not launching lines because you can't. That is not open to you. You have a 14 year old who has these issues and you can find a way suddenly to put that child in every newspaper in the country. Should you choose to do. No, you shouldn't choose to do. But it's what I genuinely. This is where I lose sympathy. I really, really, really lose sympathy. It's a child.

[Marina Hyde]

Some people never learn. I'm so sorry, have we not just seen what's happened? Some people never learn. I think it's absolutely extraordinary if you're

[Richard Osman]

an influencer somewhere and you're a 14 year old and you do Instagram and suddenly I 100% get that because it's the giddy thrill of suddenly you are in the public eye and that's exciting. You're building something that is not where Victoria Beckham is, not where. The Beckhams are the brain. The Beckhams already have an empire. They've seen every single thing that can happen if you put your children through that kind of publicity mill.

[Marina Hyde]

They've seen all of it, the darkest bits of it. I mean, what on earth are you thinking? And lots of people want to sit there and say, oh, it's lovely, she's interested or whatever, she's got ambition. No, this is just totally bleak in some horrible industry that is now catering to younger and younger and younger girls. And as I say, it's just the absolute jackboot of the patriarchy down on your neck from what, the age of five or six, you're doing unboxing skincare videos. It's awful. And we shouldn't think it's wonderful. And the overarching thing often in these cases. And maybe we'll talk about this, you know, maybe we might as well talk about Northwest as well. I mean, again, look at the parents. Sorry, hate to say it, but the overarching thing here seems to be that these children can't have a normal life, which isn't the case. There are an abundance of celebrity children who do have a normal life, by the way.

[Richard Osman]

Almost all of them.

[Marina Hyde]

Almost all of them. And that they are only suited. And the Beckhams particularly have always felt this because you've seen what they. Each of the children, I mean there were moments where is Romeo going to be a tennis star? No, he's not. Okay. He's. I'm sure you know, in the end they'll end up doing modeling and brand work and that's but the sense that they are only suited for the public eye or branches of show business. And by the way, I think these influencer led brands are, are a branch of show business and even beauty or whatever. You know, you're not a CEO, you're not as your apprentice winner, you're not building up from the ground up. It's not the same. And I think it is sort of extraordinary and particularly given what's happened to them this year. The downside, the risk reward is so extraordinarily high on the risk side of it. And just saying that, you know, my child is driven. They know what they want. Well, I mean just the word no is in the vocabulary and until they're 18. Why don't you use it? Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Because also, who knows what Harper would have grown up to do. Something interesting, something unusual, something helpful. It's possible, you know, if a 14 year old, say Harper had just designed and invented a brand which would revolutionize heart surgery and no one had seen before, by all means, by all means monetize that. But not this. You might as well say, do you know what? She couldn't find a cigarette she liked and so she's created her own.

[Marina Hyde]

And so now you know and I don't and I. This is absolutely no shade at all on the child who like all 14 year old girls has got a number of views about all sorts of things. I did myself and so does lots of other.

[Richard Osman]

Every 14 year old child would do what Harper is doing. It's not about every parent of every

[Marina Hyde]

14 year old child in the same way. I mean we might as well move on to her, to Northwest. It's not about her. She's had a social media account since she was very young. She was posting to her mother's account, before that to Kim Kardashian's account. Age 12 is extraordinarily young. But then, you know, you saw Beyonce and Jay Z's daughter, Blue Ivy. They have some rule that you're not allowed to go to the Met Gala, which was last week. You're not allowed to have. You go to the Met Gala if you're under 18. But of course, she was there and Nicole Kidman's daughter was there. And I genuinely don't think it's the kindest thing in the world to do this to people, but it's almost as though there can be no other business than that, family business.

[Richard Osman]

It becomes sort of like the royal family, which is, you know, if you are born into the royal family, you do understand that you have a certain life ahead of you, I've heard. I mean. I mean, exactly. A lot of people born into it,

[Marina Hyde]

they should have had an open audition process for Prince Harry. But could they have got anyone that good?

[Richard Osman]

There's a tv.

[Marina Hyde]

Should have got anyone that good.

[Richard Osman]

That's the interesting thing about him is he probably would have won it anyway.

[Marina Hyde]

Fair play to him.

[Richard Osman]

But I get it. If you're the royal, you know, so royal family, you understand immediately you have to put your children on a certain track and teach them certain things. And this is the way the world is going to be for you. And this is how we deal with it. And it seems there's certain show business families for whom they've gone, well, the same with us, if you want.

[Marina Hyde]

There always have been, to some extent, they've been acting dynasties and not like this, though. I know. Why am I trying to make it sound like the Rust Belt? You know, shouldn't they not be automatically entitled to the job their daddy did? You know, sometimes it's a sawmill, sometimes it's a mine, and sometimes, you know, though it's selling eyeliners.

[Richard Osman]

So here's the sociological thing. So Nepo babies. There's a lot of talk about it, and there are an awful lot of people in show business whose parents were in show business one way or another. And the two ways you can argue against it, one, but lots of people do what their parents do. And there's a huge amount of truth in that and actually a growing amount of truth in that. The last labor survey, which is like 19, which was 20, 22, I think 20% of doctors had their main breadwinner parents growing up was a doctor. So that's one in five doctors had a parent who's a doctor. You sort of see that 28 of people working in agriculture had a main breadwinner parent who worked in agriculture. Even. Even teachers. It's 10. 10 of teachers had Parents who were teachers.

[Marina Hyde]

So I wonder what it is in investment banking, because some unbelievable morons go into that, and I'm. Seven figures is one of my hot takes. There's no easier way to make money than being in money.

[Richard Osman]

Oh, my God. Yeah, exactly.

[Marina Hyde]

I mean, some of the biggest morons I know probably, yeah, made a huge amount of money and they would really struggle elsewhere.

[Richard Osman]

Construction. 17 of people in construction. Their parent worked in construction. So we do that, and we, all of us understand why we do that. You grow up seeing what your parent does. It either appeals to you or it doesn't appeal to you. If it does appeal to you, you immediately have a mentor who can show you the ropes. Also, you know, can get your work on the site during the holiday. And so we get it that you can end up in the same job as your parent and that you might want to as well. Does it automatically mean that you are brilliant at the job that you are doing? And that's the tricky thing, because we see it in TV all the time. TV and film. There are actors who have children who are actors, and you kind of go, yeah, but they're an amazing actor. So, of course they. Of course they. They're. You know, they got there on their own merits. The only sociological kind of comparison I could make was with sport, because that seems to me to have a similar skill set, which is, if you're an amazing actor, do you pass on those amazing acting genes to your children and then they become an amazing actor and therefore they achieve, because they have that personality type. And, you know, so sport, you look into. And actually sport. Far, far, far fewer.

[Marina Hyde]

So many fewer, yes.

[Richard Osman]

Nepos. Lots of siblings, funnily enough, which tells you a lot of it is nurture. You know, the. The Williams sisters, the. The Brownlee brothers, the Klitschk. An insane amount of siblings.

[Marina Hyde]

Neville's.

[Richard Osman]

The Neville. All three of them. Exactly. But if we get rid of the 1860s and the 1870s with Old Tom Morris and young Tom Morris, no father and son or mother and daughter have ever won a golf major ever. So loads and loads and loads of kids go into golf and go into. You know, but none of them have ever matched what their parents did. Likewise, there's lots of kids who had parents who were sort of amateur golfers and stuff, and they've absolutely, massively, actually done better than their parents, but there is absolutely no correlation. Same with tennis as well. There's not a single example, apart from the Suttons, again, which are many, many, many years ago, of a parent And a child both winning a Grand Slam tournament. The Sebastian Corden might do it at some point, but no examples of it at all. So absolutely lots of examples of kids who have the skill set, but they never quite match what their parents does. And that's the best way I can look at it. It's fathers and sons as well. You know, look at, you know, Maradona's son never really sort of pulled up trees. You know, Erling Harland, his dad was a footballer, but not kind of world class, world class footballer, you know, whereas in acting there are so many parents and children who have won or been nominated for Oscars. I mean, Henry Fonda, both of his kids, Jane and Peter Fonda. Jon Voight and Angelina Jolie. Liza Minnelli, when she won her Oscar. Both of her parents have got Oscars. Vincent Minnelli and. And Judy Garland. Jamie Lee Curtis, Janet Leigh, both nominated for Oscars. Jamie Lee won one. Walter Houston, John Houston, Angelica Houston, all Oscar winners. The Coppolas, of course. Laura Dunn and Diane Ladd, both nominated for the same film, their mother and daughter. And Bruce Stern as well. Rambling Rose. Exactly. And Bruce Stern as well was nominated for an Oscar. Kirk and Michael Douglas. Michael One, of course, Kirk didn't. Isabella Rossellini and Ingrid Bergman. Goldie Horn and Kate Hudson, both nominated. I mean, that's the highest level you can reach in your profession. And it happens time and time and time and time again. And no one is saying these are not talented actors, because they definitely are. What we're saying is, are they more talented than people who didn't get their opportunities? A really, really, really fascinating thing I saw the other day, and this, to me encapsulates the whole thing. And it came from a guy I like very, very much is Bryan Cranston. So Bryan Cranston, I think is. I love Bryan Cranston. I'll listen. You know, he's interested in whatever he talks about. He was talking about his daughter, Taylor

[Marina Hyde]

Dearden, who's in the pit and who is great.

[Richard Osman]

Genuinely great actor, by the way. There's lots of genuinely great actors who never, ever got on the stage because they didn't have the opportunity. He's talking about how she got her break and she got her break in. And again, this is zero shade on her. Zero Shade on her. She works incredibly hard and all that stuff, which is always the case. So that proviso, she got her break with a speaking role on Breaking Bad, an episode directed by Bryan Cranston. And Bryan Cranston is asked about this. And he says, well, it's interesting because this is sort of the opposite of a Nepo baby thing, because I knew this line was there. And I said to Taylor, you could audition for that. And she said, I don't really want to. He said, well, if you don't want to, you don't have to, but you could do. And he said. And then he said she got really, really brave and said, you know, I will. I actually will audition for this. He said, at that point, I said to the Breaking Bad people, I won't be in the room when she auditions, and you must only give her this job. Job if she is the best. You have to just. It's only if she is the best that she gets the job.

[Marina Hyde]

To repeat, this is the show in which he is the leading man and

[Richard Osman]

is directing this episode. And God bless him, when he's saying this, you can see he genuinely means it. So I get it. And every parent wants to do the best for their kids. They absolutely 100% do. But the one key to any sort of social mobility, the single key, and I see it time and time again with the people I grew up with and I. And the people, you know, who I then was in education with, is you have to get into the room. You have to get into the room. And Bryan Cranston got her into that room. And once she's in the room, that's her business, you know, and she takes care of it. But almost no one can get in.

[Marina Hyde]

The interview was really, dad, you're not helping. He's having a real triumph with the show. Please don't say any of this like that.

[Richard Osman]

But, you know, and that's the key. You have to be in the room. And most people don't know where the room is. They wouldn't have a clue about how to get into the room. And. And if they did, if every single person had the same opportunity that Taylor did and did, then the Oscars of the last 60 years would look very different.

[Marina Hyde]

I agree. I have to still say that we talk so much and you hear so much of people talking about Nepo babies and showbiz, and I agree, you know, and everything we've said today. But let's be honest. The worst Nepo babies are like, you know, I don't know, Don Jr. Or, I don't know, Kim Jong Un. I mean, you know, the Murdochs.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, but it's always been you, Wyatt Allen.

[Marina Hyde]

I mean, he's useless. Come on, he was in the job two days. He's one leg down but seriously, okay, these, you know, we never see him in public.

[Richard Osman]

These Kim Jong Un.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, like, yeah, absolutely. That guy in, what's his name? Aliyev, the one in Azerbaijan. I mean, there's some real horrors out there. And those are the worst Nepo babies. And we just, it's.

[Richard Osman]

We are an entertainment podcast. So we talk about entertainment, but don't think for one second that the entire history of capital is to do with Nepo babies and to do with people ring fencing every single penny they ever stole from you and giving it to their children, their children and their children. That's how, that's how our world runs. We're allowed to talk about the entertainment bit of it. If we want to talk about the socioeconomics of how the whole world is put together, then we can do at a later date. But it's, let's clean our house first. But I just would say to anyone at home who's got a kid who wants to be in, that is getting in the room is the key thing. And to anyone who is a gatekeeper is in any way whatsoever, the amount of times, even at end of mo, when someone say, oh, can my kid do work experience? And we absolutely put a rule in and said, no, your kid cannot do work experience. Work experience has to come from somewhere outside the building. It can't be from someone else in the industry. It can't be. We cannot do that. It has to be from open applications. You have to open up industries to people because.

[Marina Hyde]

And classes, we always say the hardest thing for them to do that with, for definite class is the hardest of all of the different, different bits of it. It's the hardest bit. And it's the bit we have a big problem with in this country.

[Richard Osman]

And probably the 10 greatest actors ever to live have never acted because they never got the chance. And the 10 greatest writers ever to live never wrote because they didn't get the chance. And you know, it's, it's all out there and you know, you just have to open doors in a, in a slightly different way. But yeah, listen, every parent wants to do the best for their kids and that's why it happens. And so there's, there's, there's no shade on the kids in any way whatsoever. But, but there is on the parent sometimes. Yeah, sometimes on certain parents. I certainly think letting your 14 year old have a skincare line.

[Marina Hyde]

My God.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, my God. Which is where we came in. Shall we go to a break?

[Marina Hyde]

Let's go to a break.

[Richard Osman]

Where our children will be reading the Adverts.

[Marina Hyde]

This episode is brought to you by Lloyds, who you can rely on to keep life running smoothly. Now, you know, what isn't celebrated enough is the behind the scenes work that makes successful entertainment seem so smooth.

[Richard Osman]

You know, you got onto any sort of set and there's the talent and everyone's having to run around after them, but the people having to run around after them are the runners. And there is not a single successful television show that isn't powered by brilliant runners.

[Marina Hyde]

Whenever you hear a director or actor say, you know, we're all just one big happy family, I always think, yeah, and you're the children and the people who are like running around are actually always the youngest people on set because runners are always really young. It's an absolute first job in the business.

[Richard Osman]

And the other key thing is if the runners are good, you don't notice them because nothing goes wrong. And it's very similar to your bank. You just need them to be there when you need them.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, like with the Lloyds app, you can check lots of handy things, little details, what payments you have coming up, what subscriptions you're paying for. It is this kind of helpful, smart stuff that makes 14 million people bank on Lloyds.

[Richard Osman]

And that's based on Lloyds internal customer data from March 2026. But we just want to say thank you to all the runners and thank you to Lloyds. All new drinks are now at McDonald's with refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with popping Boba. To crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry Blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire?

[Marina Hyde]

Try them all now at McDonald's.

[Paul McCartney]

Refreshers contain caffeine.

[Richard Osman]

Copyright 2026, the Coca Cola Company Sprite

[Marina Hyde]

is a registered trademark of the Coca Cola Company. Good sleep is everything. That's why Ollie's Science Back support is made with a blend of melatonin and L theanine for both kiddos and grown ups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help your racing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie Sleep Solutions for the whole [e-mail] that's o l l y.com.

[Richard Osman]

I think this is a great question from Khalid Saeed. He says, as someone who's been extraordinarily famous for possibly the longest time of any famous person, can you describe how being famous has changed in your lifetime? What did it feel like to Be famous in the 60s versus today.

[Paul McCartney]

Yeah. I think the big difference is in yourself. When you're first famous, you love it because it's what you're trying to achieve. So you actually get a little hit or, you know, something goes well and people in the street know you, you love it. Yeah, there's never any of this sort of, oh, people are bothering me, dear, you know, you didn't have that, none of that.

[Marina Hyde]

The modern affliction.

[Paul McCartney]

Yeah, no, we loved it. You and you learn to deal with it. I remember going to a gig once and I took the train out of London to the station near this gig and I walked in just on my own to the gig and there's a little gang of girls found me and they're all screaming around and I'm going, girls, girls, calm down, calm down. Now listen, here's the deal. If you keep quiet, I'll do your autographs, we'll walk in and it'd be great. So you learned how to deal with that. And they got it and they were very good and realized they'd get some special time. You know, as time's gone by, the times have changed. So now phones, phones. So if I meet someone, it's like, oh, and they're reaching for their phone, you know, and I say, I'm sorry, I don't do pictures. And that is like radical these days because I told that I'm name dropping now. I told that to Oprah. She goes, you don't what? You don't do pictures. I said no, said, why? I don't want to. You know, and it's like, it's as simple as that.

[Marina Hyde]

Welcome back, everybody. That was a small part of our interview with the legend Paul McCartney.

[Richard Osman]

Sir Paul McCartney.

[Marina Hyde]

Sir Paul McCartney. We absolutely love doing it. He was a complete joy. That is available for everybody on Thursday, but if you can't wait, it's available for members now.

[Richard Osman]

It's so nice doing those interviews with listener questions rather than our own. It's a really nice vibe to doing an interview, I think. And so, yeah, have a listen, see if your questions are.

[Marina Hyde]

You get to ask some quite cheeky ones which I might have not actually asked myself. Let us talk about Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni settle their long running feud, which was in two weeks was going to come to trial. They settled it last Monday and she appeared at the Met gala completely unexpectedly just a couple of hours later. I don't think it was settled for any money. There was a statement which I have to say I find completely hilarious. I Mean, this is the defining, without any question, the defining Hollywood feud of the era.

[Richard Osman]

You love a statement as well.

[Marina Hyde]

I love a statement. Statement. This, this is her statement. The end product, the movie, it ends with us. Is a source of pride to all of us who work to bring it to life. Raising awareness and making a meaningful impact in the lives of domestic violence survivors and all survivors is a goal that we stand about like, wait, that's what this was about? I'm so sorry. Because it didn't feel like that for a while. But just as a reminder, very, very brief reminder. Started off with behind the scenes conflict of It Ends with Us, which was. The 2024 movie adapted from the Colleen Hoover bestseller, was a smash hit. Baldoni is a sort of male who wrote and wrote and directed it and starred in it. Blake Lively, who's a bigger star, also starred in it. Very quickly escalated into suits of sexual harassment and countersuit smear campaigns and all this sort of stuff. It will have taken eight figures in legal fees to get even before we started the trial.

[Richard Osman]

Being a lawyer is a gift is

[Marina Hyde]

such a win, isn't it?

[Richard Osman]

Why is that paid so well?

[Marina Hyde]

It's.

[Richard Osman]

But genuinely, why is it. But I've never understood why it's paid so well.

[Marina Hyde]

Don't you think that of all the jobs that is vulnerable to AI, it's surely one of these incredibly, you know, these incredibly expensive on the clock things that are. I don't know, I mean, I think that will be. It'd be interesting to see what happens there.

[Richard Osman]

If I was a lawyer, I would just start a law firm that charged half the money.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Because I still think you're making a lot of money and you're making 5 million instead of 10 million.

[Marina Hyde]

So we're getting seven figures. Yeah. Today we're going to talk about how this has affected the careers of Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni, and in my view, as I said, the third principal, Ryan Reynolds, who's Blake Lively's husband. Should we do Justin Baldoni first?

[Richard Osman]

Please.

[Marina Hyde]

On the basis that it will take.

[Richard Osman]

I still would not recognize him if I passed him in the street.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay, well, that to me is the most interesting thing because it's one of those things where the case has been going on. So what? The movie was a hit. Whatever. Sorry. Who the hell is this guy? He's like a clean skin. He came from nowhere. He played a sort of telenovela character from 2014 to 2019. He was a sort of male feminist. He seemed to have done some TED talks. I mean, he proposed to his wife I discovered so much came out in this case that it's just so detrimental to everyone. He proposed to his wife in a 27 minute video which he put on his company's YouTube page.

[Richard Osman]

Wow.

[Marina Hyde]

Which I guess is a character note.

[Richard Osman]

Is that available?

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. Yes, you can see it. I think, I think it's still available. As for what will happen to him, I mean, at the start of this, I said, bye, bye, Justin. I stand by that particular verdict. Maybe he'll direct some low budget, something rather. I, he's kind of an ick. I have to say. I read through it. I think he behaved in a creepy way. I read all of the stuff of this case over a long, the long

[Richard Osman]

period of time it's been running.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. I think, yes. I think on my judgment, some of the behavior and his own messages and his emails.

[Richard Osman]

Gotcha.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. I don't, I don't love it. Yeah. So obviously the case was taken up bizarrely in the way that our culture will work now by sort of conservatives and alt right figures. So maybe he'll. I don't think, I don't see him as going in that kind of slight like, oh, Lawrence Fox, this is the only place I can get work. Or like Kevin Sorbo, former Hercules, you know, starring in those type of movies. I don't really see that. So maybe he'll direct low budget things, but I don't think we're going to be hearing a huge amount more from him. Blake Lively, this is, I mean it's fascinating, you know, really big and Gossip Girl on tv. But this is her step and she's obviously married to a huge star who we're going to get to. This was her step up to and to the top a list I think really from the discovery, which is the process, the legal process via which we get all the emails related to this case. So before she even launched her actions and her sort of her campaign against Justin Baldoni, we now know what the Sony executives were saying about her. The Sony were the people who bankrolled in. Maybe the chair and CEO of Sony said she did bring it all on. This is before she. This is before it's become Lively Vivaldoni. This. They never think these emails will be made public. She did bring it all on herself by refusing to listen to advice and by selling her products. Remember she used this movie about domestic violence to launch her new hair care range. The head of comms at Sony, she orchestrated all this drama in a totally unsavvy and amateur way and basically threatened Sony. And now is mad it backfired on her. Another Sony executive. This is my favorite one because it's. This tells you everything about the entertainment industry privately. Writes in emails describing her as a fucking terrorist. When the movie comes out, writes to Blake, Blake. 50 million your blood, sweat, tears. Brilliant smarts heart and soul in every single frame. My God, it's incredible. Thank you. 50 million times and it's only Saturday night.

[Richard Osman]

Wow.

[Marina Hyde]

God. Sony executives must really love seeing their emails in public because how about people

[Richard Osman]

still writing things in emails?

[Marina Hyde]

Remember again, it's all before she launches. The legal action. Says it's quite ironic because she has a huge hit movie to headed to 300 million plus and she'll probably never work again. Or not for a while. Although even Hathaway recovered. Tom. This is Tom, the CEO of Tom Rotten CEO at the time of so many pages. Tom thinks she's probably in bizarrely unhorrible right now. This is before anything became public. That Hathaway reference is interesting. That is a reference to Anne Hathaway at the time of the Les Miserables sort of Oscar campaign, which she eventually won the best supporting actress Oscar. There was a huge backlash, public backlash, Internet led backlash against Anne Hathaway. I think that was probably just down to sort of misogyny. They thought she was too staged, too ubiquitous, too keen to please, you know, too something.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

But there wasn't really anything that you could say she'd done. So there's no particular reasons. So to go back to Blake Lively and whether she could recover in that same way because Anne Hathaway is obviously has recovered from that. I do not think so. She had a whole load of witnesses lined up. So much had been struck out by this point. What they were really gonna say in the trial is Blake Lively is commercially toxic. You're gonna have a parade of people saying, yeah, no, she can't get this work, she can't get that work. We've got a million units of our hair care unit that we can't shift. Are you really going to get up on the stand and say that? I should.

[Richard Osman]

I would launch a podcast called Blake Lively is commercially Toxic. If I have a Blake Lively, that's a great.

[Marina Hyde]

By the way, we get some real numbers. Cause people do not like her now. So she's. You know what if you' her upcoming projects. There's a film in development directed by Paul Feig. Will that go forward? I don't know. There's a sort of element where you think, you know, like in Pratt Panto it happens and you know, for a certain amount of years you play a woman, plays the principal boy and then suddenly it's like, oh, now you're the wicked queen. I don't know if she graduates from Gossip Girls, nice girl next door to sort of villain roles.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

Because images do go through these cycles and backlashes and what have you. Okay, now let's get onto the real degraded brand here because Ryan Reyn now he was an absolutely teflon, a lister. He is very clever, he's successful, he writes, he performs, he has a gin brand, he is a co owner of Wrexham, he's diversified in all the ways the modern celebrity must be. And he's got a sort of guy next door, sort of fun kids watch movies with him. He's a kind of four quadrant guy basically. Now we've all now seen his texts which are so sort of withering as to be brutal. People now think, people think they know stars they've got. But now we all know. Everyone knows stars act like this or they suspect they do. But we now can see it. By the way, everyone in Hollywood who has to work with talent doesn't love that. Even though he's not their client necessarily. No one loves that this has come out because the whole business is a business of artifice and wonder. Once you see that, people who seem like so chill and really fun and just like a laugh a minute guy, behave like this behind the scenes in a way that other people would perceive to be bullying or just like unbelievable. Unbelievably, the big I am Persona, which I know I always bang on, but it's taken a beating for definite. I think that that settlement was to salvage him more than her because I think she's regarded as a busted flush now. But you've got to protect that investment. Do you think Taylor Swift, her former best friend forever. All eyes on the Taylor Swift wedding. Because if those two aren't at it, that's not going to.

[Richard Osman]

Oh really?

[Marina Hyde]

Oh my gosh. I mean that would be. I mean I'm sure they will be, but we're almost at move to the Cotswolds territory, if I can say. I mean they'd be a lovely addition, wouldn't they? The scorched earth. Let's move to the Cotswolds.

[Richard Osman]

The poor old Cotswolds.

[Marina Hyde]

Never litigate unless it's. I mean I've written about this so many times before, but don't, unless it's desperate, don't litigate. What you've seen here is at every single stage of this their talent representative should have said, don't do this. Clearly what they have shown themselves to be by continuing with it are stars that are uncontrollable or have just not taken the advice. And if there, if the advice has not been at every stage, let's exit this gracefully. There's different ways we can go about this. Then the advice has been incredibly poor. Or maybe this is a hangover of people thinking that Hollywood's old ways, which is sort of legal fire power, status, firepower, by saying, well, we'll get rid of you from our agency, Justin Baldoni, because obviously these two are more important to us, that those ways would work and that actually the really uncontrollable thing in this case, even though the stars might have seen uncontrollable, incredible, is the Internet. And you cannot under. You can't predict where it will go and you can't predict backlashes. Maybe you can, who knows, synthetically stir them up. But you don't want to get into one of those cases because again, the risk reward is too. Is. Is not a balance in your favor

[Richard Osman]

because even 20 years ago we never would have heard a whisper of this. No, absolutely would have disappeared. A couple of lawsuits, blacklisting, everything dealt with certainly 40, 50 years ago. I mean, this stuff happened all the time. But now you can't hide anything.

[Marina Hyde]

Everyone who has has lost here, except pot. Cotswolds, estate agents who could be in

[Richard Osman]

for a big payday. They always win.

[Marina Hyde]

Why not just be a lawyer or a Cotswold's estate agent.

[Richard Osman]

Estate agent. That's the thing.

[Marina Hyde]

It seems like that's the right move. Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Talking of estate agents, talking of lovely bucolic neighbourhoods, I want to talk about the new ITV show, the Neighbourhood. The reason we're talking about it is so you may not have heard of it, you may have done. We've Talked before about BBC, ITV, Channel 4 taking fewer swings but bigger these days, far, far fewer shows in the mid market and they're spending all their money on three or four really big swings each. And at the moment that's all sort of in the tale of the comet that was the Traitors, which showed that you can go from a standing start and create like this huge phenomenon which really kind of energizes terrestrial television. Almost always these things fail. ITV's new version is called the Neighborhood, and for whatever reason, it's become a poster boy for how dare they.

[Marina Hyde]

Can I quickly describe the premise of the show? Just because quite a lot of people haven't seen it, the Premise is it's set in this dedicated village, a holiday village, in fact, in the Peak District. And it's like a whole. It's almost like a immersive set. Would you describe as that six families move in, some other families kind of come along the way they do. Neighborhood challenges. There are evictions in the form of something called removals. There's a 250,000 pound prize and Graham Norton is the host. Now, obviously, he is one of the biggest stars on tv. They've got everything in this. You know, there's a town square, there's a pub, there's a cafe, all of that sort of stuff. It's a prime primetime show. It's now already been pulled from primetime because it was doing so bad, it was getting half a million viewers, which is not what you would wish for. And I mean, it's replaced by things like, you know, Beat the Chasers, celebrity versions and Davina show on Repeat, which are getting higher viewers. Yeah, it's very difficult because there. And there have been quite a few shows. We should say that, by the way, this is not alone. And in the old days it would have failed with 4 million viewers. It was still a failed. I don't think it's. But now it failed with half a million. There are lots of shows like the Fortune Hotel or the Inheritance. Rise and Fall was that one called? Yeah, various shows, these big swing shows that have not worked. It's interesting, I mean, talking to people, you know, within that business, sort of saying, well, it's easy to forget that sort of 1 in 10 maybe works and becomes a big thing anyway, and that nothing can have a chance really now beyond a first series, which is something different than would have, you know, happened before. It's no longer the case that people will turn up. Even if you've got one of the biggest names, best love names on tv, Graham Norton, they don't feel they have to until people say, have you seen that thing? That's good. Until they've had a recommendation from someone or something, some outlet, something they trust, they don't actually turn up to look.

[Richard Osman]

Well, there is only one way to draw people in, that's to make a show that people want to watch. And, you know, you can start on 900,000 and then your second episode. I mean, don't forget when Traitor started, the overnights for the first couple of episodes were terrible. Yeah, I mean, really low. And everyone was like, oh, no, that's bizarrely.

[Marina Hyde]

It became a huge show, catch up even after the final had aired.

[Richard Osman]

But if people. It's like anything, it's like a book, it's like a song. If a few people watch it or listen to it and like it, they recommend it. And that's how a show goes. Every single person making these things wants this to be a hit. The pedigree of this show is not, not just Graham hosting it and is absolutely one of our best presenters. It's Lifted who make I'm a Celestle and all sorts of shows and the garden who make 24 hours and police Custody. I mean it's really amazing chops. I think the format is perfectly acceptable. It's sort of like Big Brother but for families. I mean that's an interesting pitch. And by the way, we found this amazing location which already. It's great. It's a place called Derwent Lake Holiday Village. You can rent it out if you want to on there. If you look on their website at the moment, it's like come where the TV stars are. I think. Okay, I didn't go quite as well as you'd hoped, but I think it's a great pitch. It's a really interesting pitch. There's wonderful things like with the removals things that everyone's staying inside the house, they're looking out of their window.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Just to see if they're about to get removed. When you watch it. I hadn't watched. I hadn't watched the first couple and I watched it when everyone had said oh my God, this is terrible, this is a disaster and etc. Etc. And I watched it, I thought I really rather enjoyed it because you know, in any other generation it would have been a perfectly acceptable mid sized hit. But because we've only got a couple of these a year now and there's a lot, there's a lot of pressure on them. It has to hit immediately and absolutely shows. There's like a certain little sprinkling of stardust on shows like this. Which is whether it's casting or whether it's serendipity. But I think they set up everything they could set up to make this a hit. I think it's a really interesting location. I think it's a perfectly acceptable idea idea for a show. Some good bits of casting. You know, I like how it looks and the people behind it are super, super smart viewers. If they watch something and it's not for them, it's not for them. But I did, you know, I do think Traitor started exactly the same. Started very, very, very low and just grew and grew and grew and Grew. And, yeah, this. This one, it. It looks like it's not going to, but it's that idea of saying, oh, my God, who commissioned this? I didn't commission everyone. Every single person at home, if they were working, ITV would commission this. If lifted. And the garden came to you and said, here's our location. They said, look, it's. It's an eviction show, right? People like eviction shows, right? Yeah, that's something that people like. What's the twist? The twist is. Oh, it's family. So actually we see family. You know, it's not just families, but it's households.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

So there's like. Like a house full of uni students in there and they're saying that Graham's interested in doing it. So, you know, you've got a big face and a big name who, you know, go on shows and puff it and spent plenty of money on it. Almost impossible to have a successful television show.

[Marina Hyde]

I agree. And I have to say that I think what people are doing now, and so many people now say much, as you can see, they have in Hollywood, maybe we just reboot something, that there's some kind of residual memory of some IP that we do, you know, or we. You bring Hell's Kitchen back because it's huge in America and now we do it, you know, ITV studios make that or you do. People might turn up for that, for the sort of. Some.

[Richard Osman]

For the other stuff. Whereas I like that the channels are still pitching, taking things on, things like this on new shows. And it's so hard. And if I was making this show now, if I was at the channel, it's like. It's so demoralizing and no one feels sorry for anyone. We get that. But everyone is trying to have a hit with a new show here. And you can say, oh, God, it's so derivative. Every show you've ever enjoyed is derivative. It's all goggle box. Well, that's Soccer Saturday. I mean, it's. Everything is derivative. You've. You literally. It's impossible not to be derivative. You want to be derivative, but incredibly entertaining. Studio Lambert, who make the Traitors, who make Gogglebox, who make Race across the World. Three of the three ideas which are absolutely not original. And what Studio Lambert do is they make them absolutely brilliantly.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

And, you know, all three of those shows are shows which absolutely could have failed. Absolutely.

[Marina Hyde]

But they made other things like Rise and Fall, and they've done it brilliantly, but it just. It hasn't taken the inheritance.

[Richard Osman]

That's one of theirs. And, you know, the viewers just go, this. This one is.

[Marina Hyde]

It's still a fantastic hit rate, by the way. I mean, please. Oh, people don't see it.

[Richard Osman]

The best hit rate in the.

[Marina Hyde]

In the business.

[Richard Osman]

In the business. Absolutely. Greatest feeling the business is when you have a hit and when you do something where the viewers go, this is the version of that that we wanted. But no one beforehand is. Is predicting that. You've just got to give good people time and money to make good ideas and. And you hope it lands. So I. I really enjoyed the Neighbor Dun.

[Marina Hyde]

Something that landed with me, if I may say, on itv. That is an old format we know very, very well, and this is even a sort of retread of that format, the I'm a celeb All Stars thing that took place, you know, a couple of weeks ago, the final. I'm only just going to talk about this really briefly because I think something quite interesting has happened within that. The final was essentially a reunion show. Bear in mind, they shot this show in South Africa in last September, I want to say. And yet the final took place live in London in April over a period of 28 minutes. I can't believe it, because it felt like 28 days, but also like 28 seconds. It was pure chaos and drama. I loved it, in my view, in a good way. These huge showdowns, mainly between Jimmy Bullard, the eventual winner, Adam Thomas, by the way, when he's crowned, his face was just like. I mean, talk about the hollow crown. It really was. You've never seen more one anyone. David Hay, who, You know, I mean, it was a. I didn't think any of those three gentlemen had covered in glory, if I may say so. But obviously David Hay remains the worst always. There was a huge amount of people shouting, I take full responsibility for my actions. While taking absolutely no responsibility for their actions. Sunita walks off at one point. Gemma Collins then thinks, hang on a second, she's walking. I mean, I should have been the one to walk off. And then this extraordinary green feather confection flounces off after Sunita. They were pursuing Ant and Dec into the car park. Afterwards, it was unclear who could go on any of the afternoon. In fact, even the king of the jungle couldn't. Everyone has been on podcasts since telling their side of the story. The reason I'm gonna say I love this, first of all, because it was absolutely hysterical. But you see the afterlife of it rolling on. That is something quite new. That's something that is an old format. We know it's an old format and this is very American. What's actually happened. This whole idea of effectively a reunion show when something's been. Which is what the housewives do, it's huge. Huge. It's. These reunion shows are the biggest things. Everyone's waiting for the reunion show when they've all seen how they've been portrayed, which didn't used to exist.

[Richard Osman]

That's the key. So normally on I'm a Celebrity, you'll have a reunion show. It'll be the next week, and people haven't really been able to catch up with everything. This is months later. So everyone knows exactly how they've been portrayed. They've seen every single bit of social media comment, and they are absolutely ready to go.

[Marina Hyde]

He claims to be. Well, it was claimed that he was suing ITV for £10 million for giving him a villain edit. He's now said, this is absolutely ridiculous. I would never see for that little money. It's much, much more. The whole thing is just pure poetry. But it's very American, that. And to have done that until suddenly and when things escape the bounds of the show and then you realize that, like, oh, my God, this is sustaining about, like almost, you know, two weeks on, it's sustaining several of our leading podcasts, the fallout from people turning up and saying all sorts of things on it. Shows like this now have to leap out of the. Leap out of the, confines of the, you know, the transmission slot. And even on everyone. They sort of need to be happening and to be kicking.

[Richard Osman]

I mean, you talk to everyone who's working on that show and it's literally hilarious. People who worked on that 28 million thing just going like the phone calls they're making, everyone going, is this okay? Is this. Seems like something terrible has happened and

[Marina Hyde]

just remind me what our duty of care rules are. By the way, you can still watch this on IGBX. How can it only be 28 minutes? It's hysterical. It's absolutely hysterical. Jimmy Bullard just shouting at the audience. You know, know that. Sorry, for us. This is just a job for us. Just.

[Richard Osman]

He was on some point, the celebrities. And we go and talk to everyone beforehand. Jimmy Bullard. And I shook his hand. I said, hi, Jimmy, I'm. I'm a Fulham fan. And he goes, oh, really? I used to play for Fulham. I said, yeah, that's. That's why I told you exactly that. Can I make an ITV announcement?

[Marina Hyde]

I wanted to just say, can you?

[Richard Osman]

I can indeed. So I've just. I. Obviously I've left The House of Games and Pointless and all of that. You know, I want to do a bit of TV and people pitch me various quizzes and, and I, and Studio Lambert. Funnily enough though, that's not why we were big in the mucks. We stuck them off as well, didn't we? Talked about Rise and Fall as well. They, they have, they came to me with a show called Golden Elevators which is an ITV quiz which I'm going to be filming this autumn and I'm looking forward to it very, very much indeed. And with my, I always think if, if someone pitches me a quiz, do I like it as a quiz, our viewers going to enjoy it. And then I think is there something I, I can do that would make this better? And with Golden Elevators was the first one where I thought both of those things is super, super simple. But it takes a lot of skill to win it and I can present it in a really interesting, slightly unusual way. Not kind of shiny floor and I can give away a big prize.

[Marina Hyde]

Well you, I was just going to say that your dream is always to give away a large amount of money on television with a sense of occasion. Anyone who's failed to do that, that in the past. Although you know my thoughts.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, but so it's got, it's got 100,000 pound prize. So I get to do that stuff which I've done in run throughs a million times for other people's shows where you go, okay, you said Anne of Cleves, Marina, if Anne of Cleves is correct, you're walking away with £100,000. If it's wrong, you walk away with nothing.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay, I haven't broken in that bed,

[Richard Osman]

you know, so that's the thing that I want to do and this show gives me the opportunity to do that. It's a really, it's a really, really fun show and you know, everything fails, et cetera, et cetera. But I'm looking forward to doing it very much.

[Marina Hyde]

Autumn schedules, Richard.

[Richard Osman]

I don't know actually. So we're filming in the autumn and it's again, it's Studio Lambert and Talbot, the team behind, behind the Traitors. And so the Americans and the Brits and various other territories will do it at the, at the same time. But yeah, we've done load. We've been doing loads and loads of run throughs the last couple of weeks. It's really fun. Every version of it has been.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, this is completely different.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, I mean listen, we shall see. But it's, it's, it's nice for me. And it's eight episodes rather than 110. And I can do that and write as well.

[Marina Hyde]

It's a different number.

[Richard Osman]

It is a different number. Exactly that. Any recommendations this week?

[Marina Hyde]

I am loving Legends.

[Richard Osman]

Oh, that's what I was going to. Why would we not only get one recommendation?

[Marina Hyde]

Well, Legends is written by Neil Forsyth. I love him so much. Did Gil did the Goal, if you love the Gold, and I certainly did. And it's with the same team he did the Goal with, with Objective.

[Richard Osman]

I was sat across the aisle from Joshua Maguire from the Gold, and I was like, oh, my God, I was so excited. And anyway, you don't need to know that.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, I love that. It's a fantastic cast. Steve Coogan, sort of the lead, but it's long and strong, this cast, and it's about undercover customs operatives in the 80s going undercover to beat heroin smuggling rings. And it's sort of based on something that's real but has never really been talked about. And I just think Neil Forsyth is brilliant. The way Objective makes it, it's fantastic. It's just a great crime story.

[Richard Osman]

I love it. It's like if Guy Ritchie had a sense of humor.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

But you know what I mean. Like, there's stuff in there really early on where you go, that's just a great gag. It's believable. It comes from character. There's still tension, all of that. Absolutely real people talking in a real way. Yeah. Both series of the Gold I just. I loved. And this is.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, that was on BBC. This one's on Netflix.

[Richard Osman]

Let's recommend both of those.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes. Yeah, that about wraps us up. We will be back with someone you all have heard of on Thursday, Sir Paul McCartney. Paul McCartney. We loved interviewing him. If you want to listen to that Beforehand, it's theres entertainment.com for membership and ad free listening otherwise.

[Richard Osman]

And apologies once again for having no visuals in this episode.

[Marina Hyde]

We are very sorry we have no video in this episode, but lovely.

[Richard Osman]

For people who only listen in an. Or who only ever listen, because it's like. Like everyone's on a level playing field.

[Marina Hyde]

I just want to say I looked incredibly hot. Maybe my best ever. But fine.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, I was wearing. You know what I thought? I thought, just for once, I will wear a top hat.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

And. But now I just. Now I feel like it was a curse just wasted. Yeah. Next week, hatless.

[Marina Hyde]

See you on Thursday.

[Richard Osman]

Thursday.

[Marina Hyde]

Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho look for that rooftop dinner. Those sandals that can keep up up with you and hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Spring's calling, Ross.

[Richard Osman]

Work your magic. Why did we really go to war with Iraq? And did Saddam Hussein really have weapons of mass destruction? I'm Gordon Carrera, national security journalist. And I'm David McCloskey, author and former CIA analyst. We are the hosts of the Rest Is Classified. And in our latest in this series, we are telling the true story of one of history's biggest intelligence failures. Iraq WMD. In 2003, the US and UK told the world that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. But they were wrong. This wasn't a simple lie. It was something far more complicated, far more interesting, and far more dangerous. Spies who believed their sources, politicians who wanted the public to believe in the threat, and a dictator who couldn't prove he'd already destroyed the weapons. In this series, we go deep inside the CIA and MI6, go into the rooms where decisions were made, and look at the sources who fabricated the intelligence that took us to war. The Iraq war reshaped the Middle east and permanently weakened public trust in governments and intelligence agencies, and its consequences are still playing out today. Plus, in a Declassified Club exclusive, we are joined by three people who were at the heart of the decision to go to war. Former head of MI6, Richard Dearlove, Tony Blair's former communications director, Alistair Campbell, and former acting head of the CIA, Michael Morell. So get the full story by listening to the Rest Is Classified and subscribing to the Declassified Club. Wherever you get your podcasts.