Buffy, Michael Sheen & MacGuffins

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Buffy, Michael Sheen & MacGuffins"

The Rest Is Entertainment
Hosts: Richard Osman & Marina Hyde
Date: March 26, 2026
Format: Q&A Edition

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Episode Overview

In this lively Q&A edition, Richard Osman and Marina Hyde answer questions from listeners about TV, movies, and memorable pop culture phenomena. They dig into the curious case of the cancelled Buffy reboot, the art of keeping celebrity marriages secret, the logic behind TV show handovers (including Michael Sheen on House of Games), and the enduring concept of the "MacGuffin" in film and television. Throughout, they offer behind-the-scenes perspectives, industry anecdotes, and their trademark wit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Oscar-Nominated British TV Alumni Rivalry

• [02:18]–[04:25]
• A listener thanks Richard for previously crunching the numbers on which British shows (The Bill, Casualty, Doctor Who) produced the most Oscar-nominated actors.
• Doctor Who ultimately takes the crown with 15 alumni, including Andrew Garfield, Carey Mulligan, Daniel Kaluuya, Olivia Colman, Jim Broadbent, and others.
• Caveat: Many actors joined Doctor Who after their nominations, making it easier for the show to "attract" rather than "produce" Oscar nominees.
• Key Quote:
  Richard Osman [03:38]: "Some of those people were in Doctor Who after they were Oscar-nominated, because Doctor Who was a very, very big franchise ... harder for [The Bill and Casualty] to get Oscar-nominated actors in them."

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2. The Hulu Buffy Reboot That Was Cancelled

• [04:26]–[14:25]
• Listener Question: Why was the highly anticipated Buffy reboot at Hulu/Disney cancelled so late, despite big names attached (Sarah Michelle Gellar, Chloe Zhao)?
• Unpacking the Process:
  • The reboot ("Buffy: New Sunnydale") reached the pilot filming stage, with notable talent: showrunners Nora & Lilla Zuckerman, director Chloe Zhao, and Sarah Michelle Gellar as executive producer (with minor on-screen appearance).
  • The industry process for reboots: multiple script drafts, pilot world-building, series bibles for season arcs, and network feedback/redesign.
  • Budget & Timing: Pilot reportedly cost $17 million—high for current TV economics.
  • Cancellation Reasoning: Hulu reportedly deemed the pilot "small in scope," better for network TV, and "unsalvageable." Rumors describe issues as "undershot," "under-directed," and lacking coverage/exposition—a strong critique aimed at the Oscar-winning director.
  • Awkward twist: Exec Craig Erwich rejected the show at Hulu, then became head of 20th Century Television (making his decision to pass even more pivotal).
  • The age of the fandom and the importance of Sarah Michelle Gellar’s involvement are highlighted as challenges for future attempts.
• Industry Trends:
  • 90s IP/media reboots are attractive, especially to successful creatives who grew up as fans.
  • Talent and fan management are key in franchises with obsessive followings.
• Key Quotes:
  • Marina Hyde [06:03]: "They've pulled the plug on it remarkably late and it's absolutely shocking to everyone involved."
  • Richard Osman [13:12]: "The budget for this pilot was about 17 million, and ... 10, 15, 20 years ago, you could have got away with it. You can't get away with it now."
  • Marina Hyde [12:59]: "It really helps if Sarah Michelle Gellar is involved. In fact, you definitely need it because it's an obsessive fandom."

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3. Hollywood’s Influence on Language and Everyday Life

• [14:33]–[16:28]
• Listener Question: Are there other film/TV examples that shaped language like "Rebecca" cardigans in Spain?
• Notable Examples:
  • "Paparazzi" comes from a character in La Dolce Vita (Paparazzo).
  • "Bucket list" popularized (not named for) the film The Bucket List (2007).
  • "Gaslight," from the 1944 film, is now mainstream in political/psychological lexicon.
• Key Quote:
  • Richard Osman [15:57]: "That's the best one of all, isn't it? [Gaslight] ... It's the whole thing based on a Patrick Hamilton play. But the movie is where that term came into being."

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4. How Do Celebrities Keep Marriages Secret?

• [18:49]–[22:23]
• Listener Question: How did Zendaya and Tom Holland manage to get married privately without photo leaks?
• Answer:
  • Small, secretive gatherings, usually with tight circles, NDAs, and phone bans.
  • Stars increasingly value privacy as a "USP" (Unique Selling Point) in the age of influencer oversharing.
  • Traditional celebrities can afford privacy; influencers "sell" their personal milestones for content and revenue.
• Key Quotes:
  • Marina Hyde [21:01]: "The not knowing can be the always on part ... secrecy and privacy is a prestige quality."
  • Richard Osman [21:20]: "If you're Tom Holland and Zendaya, you don't need to sell who you are because you can just go and do a film to make your money."

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5. Michael Sheen Takes Over 'House of Games'

• [22:26]–[25:27]
• Listener Question: Will the show be "Michael Sheen’s House of Games"?
• Richard's Inside Info:
  • Confirmed: Michael Sheen is the new host. Show will be called Michael Sheen’s House of Games.
  • Richard will do a final week, then hand over ("we all want everyone to know how delighted we are that Michael's doing it").
  • Prizes now being made with Sheen’s image; Richard lobbied for dual branding.
  • Richard would consider appearing as a contestant in future, but not immediately—"that's too meta."
• Fun Anecdote:
  • Marina hopes Sheen will do his famous impressions for a Christmas special.
• Key Quotes:
  • Richard Osman [24:37]: "In the same way that it's important to have Sarah Michelle Gellar in the Buffy reboot ... want everyone to know how delighted we are that Michael's doing it."

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6. The Art of the MacGuffin: Film & TV’s Great Plot Devices

• [26:07]–[33:10]
• Listener Question: What are your top three favorite MacGuffins?
• What is a MacGuffin?
  • Term coined (or popularized) by Hitchcock and his screenwriter Angus MacPhail: an item, secret, or person that drives the plot, often of minimal intrinsic importance to the story.
  • George Lucas later said a MacGuffin could matter as much to viewers as to characters—sparking debate.
• Classic Examples Discussed:
  • The Maltese Falcon (the titular statue)
  • Spanish Prisoner ("the process")
  • Citizen Kane ("Rosebud")
  • Raiders of the Lost Ark (the Ark of the Covenant)
  • The Big Lebowski (The Dude’s rug)
  • Pulp Fiction (the glowing suitcase)
  • Psycho ($40,000 in stolen money)
  • The 39 Steps (military secrets)
  • Lord of the Rings ("the ring" debated)
• Plot Coupons: Sci-fi variant where multiple items must be collected—Horcruxes (Harry Potter), Infinity Stones (Marvel).
• Key Quotes:
  • Marina Hyde [27:12]: "It's the thing that the characters on screen worry about, but the audience doesn't care about."
  • Richard Osman [31:17]: "The suitcase in Pulp Fiction ... all the way through, they open the suitcase and it's glowing gold. But you never know what it is. ... So that I'm going to put as my number one."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Buffy Cancelation:

  • Marina Hyde [06:03]: "They've pulled the plug on it remarkably late and it's absolutely shocking to everyone involved."
  • Richard Osman [13:12]: "The budget for this pilot was about 17 million, and ... 10, 15, 20 years ago, you could have got away with it. You can't get away with it now."

• On Language Influenced by Film:

  • Richard Osman [15:57]: "That's the best one of all, isn't it? Gaslight."

• On Celebrity Privacy:

  • Marina Hyde [21:01]: "Secrecy and privacy is a prestige quality."
  • Richard Osman [21:20]: "If you're Tom Holland and Zendaya, you don't need to sell who you are..."

• On MacGuffins:

  • Marina Hyde [29:58]: "The rug, the Dude's rug in The Big Lebowski, which is genuinely an object of no value, except it really tied the room together."
  • Richard Osman [31:17]: "The suitcase in Pulp Fiction... you never know what it is."

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:18] British TV actors with Oscar nominations
• [04:26] The Hulu Buffy reboot saga: backstory, cancellation, and industry context
• [14:33] Pop culture terms from movies ("Rebecca", "Paparazzi", "Gaslight")
• [18:49] How A-list celebrities keep weddings private
• [22:26] Michael Sheen's takeover of House of Games
• [26:07] Defining and discussing favorite MacGuffins in film & TV

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Tone and Style

Richard and Marina sustain a conversational, witty, and slightly irreverent tone throughout, blending genuine insider knowledge with dry humor:

• They delight in obscure industry detail and “number crunching.”
• There is a strong meta-awareness about TV and movie tropes, fandom, and the business side of entertainment.
• Both make frequent asides and cultural references (from noir films to influencer culture).

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This episode provides an entertaining, insightful tour through recent entertainment industry dramas (Buffy reboot) and timeless tropes (MacGuffins), peppered with film history trivia and commentary on evolving celebrity culture. Whether you’re a Buffy superfan, TV quiz afficionado, or film studies geek, it’s a lively refresher on the forces shaping what we watch—and talk about—in pop culture today.

Transcript

[Marina Hyde]

The rest is entertainment.

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[Richard Osman]

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[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

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[Richard Osman]

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[Marina Hyde]

Well, look, they can butt surface the

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[Marina Hyde]

Hello and welcome to this episode of

the Rest is Entertainment Questions and Answers edition.

I'm Marina Hyde.

[Richard Osman]

And I'm Richard Osman. Hello, Marina.

[Marina Hyde]

Hello, Richard. How are you?

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, I'm not too bad at all. Can I start with some any other business? After our Oscars chat and my main contribution was working out if more people from Casualty had been nominated for an Oscar than from The Bill. Stuart Ian Burns has written in and said thank you so much for crunching the numbers on the Ville and Casualty's Oscar alumni. I love crunch. I really genuinely love crunchy number.

[Marina Hyde]

But people loved it.

[Richard Osman]

But I love people. Stuart has crunched the numbers of his own. Can I point you in the direction of another BBC stalwart, Doctor who, which has 15 acting nominations.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh my gosh.

[Richard Osman]

Andrew Garfield, Carey Mulligan, Daniel Kaluuya again, who has been in all three of these.

[Marina Hyde]

The center of our van.

[Richard Osman]

He is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Eric Roberts, I was thinking. And of course he was. He was nominated for Runaway Train, wasn't he? Way back when. Best supporting Actor. Felicity Jones, Ian McKellen, Imelda Staunton, Jim Broadbent, John Cleese, John Hurt, Olivia Colman, Pauline Collins, Richard E. Grant, Sophie Okonedo and Mare Winningham, all nominated for Oscars. I will say this, Stuart Ian Burns, if I may call you that some of those people were in Doctor who after they were Oscar nominated because, you know, Doctor who was a very, very big franchise and nothing against Casualty in the Bill, but it's harder for them to get Oscar nominated actors in them. So absolutely it takes the crown, but I think it has a little asterisk next to that crown.

[Marina Hyde]

Agreed. I think they have to be. It has to be the stepping stone.

[Richard Osman]

Yes.

[Marina Hyde]

But anyway, actually I don't want to

denigrate the shows at all. But it has to be an early

part of the cv.

[Richard Osman]

Well, because it's about the skill of a casting, which is spotting. It's like if you go back and watch Prime Suspect and every kind of minor character, you're like, oh my God.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, I know.

[Richard Osman]

Like there was, I was watching one the other day, there's a 14 year old Danny Dyer in it. Just every time it's someone you go like a young Peter Capaldi, stuff like that. So it's about the skill of the casting director. But Stuart, thank you for crunching numbers as well and keeping me company. And anyone out there whoever wants to crunch any numbers and send me any sort of list, I will. Honestly, that is grist to my mill. Shall we start with a question about Buffy?

[Marina Hyde]

There's so many questions about Buffy.

Yes.

[Richard Osman]

So Jen is asking this. I saw that Hulu has decided not to take up the highly anticipated Buffy reboot. It seems a strange decision given the appetite from the fandom and with both Sarah Michelle Gellar and Chloe Zhao involved. How did they arrive at this decision?

[Marina Hyde]

It is genuinely remarkable, this, because it Got so far. This is the beloved series starring Sarah Michelle Gellar, which ran for seven seasons between, I think 97 and 2003.

That.

That would have been two seasons these days. But anyway, created by Joss Whedon, who is now in the league of sort of semi cancelled gentlemen.

So he is no longer part of this.

But it was going to be at Hulu Disney, for our purposes. It was called Buffy New Sunnydale. They had, you know, a sort of great recipe in lots of ways. The showrunners were the sisters Nora and Lilla Zuckerman, who are brilliant, who are the showrunners on Poker Face, who've also worked on lots of other sort of big TV things like Agents of SHIELD and stuff like that. The pilot was directed by Chloe Xavier,

[Richard Osman]

the director of Hamnet and Oscar Winner

[Marina Hyde]

and Nomadland and all these things.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, And Sarah Michelle Gellar was heavily involved.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, she's executive producing. She didn't appear. She appeared a tiny amount actually in the pilot as short, which to me makes sense. Like she's in right at the very end and maybe she just has one line. I think that's cool.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. And it's the Next Generation, but she is showing that it's okay.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay.

Yeah.

So it felt like it has the. Yeah, exactly. The blessing and the bloodline, if you can say that in a vampire show.

[Richard Osman]

So Sarah Michelle Geller's on board. You've got an Oscar winning director, you've got two great showrunners.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay. So.

[Richard Osman]

And it's beloved. It's a beloved piece of ip. You would think it was the biggest shoe in. In Hollywood history.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. They've pulled the plug on it remarkably late and it's absolutely shocking to everyone involved in it. What they have sort of leaked that. The problem is, is that they said it was small in scope, it's more suited to network tv. You know, they're really. I mean, they're really.

[Richard Osman]

I mean, they sort of said it's bad.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, they said it's bad.

So, Ray, I think what they might

mean is, you know, it's costing us a fortune. There's only gonna be a few EP loads of it. And with these particular heavyweights involved, it took them too long to say no. But I thought I would lay out because I think it's quite interesting if you don't know this, how something gets to even a pilot being made. And so what are the stages that it had to get through to get to this point, which is. And it might, you know, throw into even sharper relief how late this is to cancel. Okay. I don't know exactly how they did this one, but this would be a typical pathway. So you've shop a pilot or a commission. You say, I've got, you know, I've got an idea. But in this case it's this beloved IP related. So they will have had millions of

people for a long, long time saying,

pitching, saying, I'm interested, even like big names that you've heard of coming to them. Why now? Modern takes, etc. Etc.

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

So if, yeah, if it's not Buffy and you are someone with a name and with an agent, you have your idea, you will do a deck on that idea of what it might be. You will then shop that round various of the streamers and they may say, and they say yes or no. In, in this particular instance, you have got some real heavyweights. It's almost like they are desperate to have the meeting with you. Rather the other way around.

[Marina Hyde]

So many people have said that.

I have a really great Buffy pitch. If you're ever interested at the, you

[Richard Osman]

know, at the Oscars, usually you are trying to sell to a streamer. If with something like Buffy and with the people involved, the streamers trying to sell to you, which is, yes, we want this with us. What can we do for you?

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, anyway, they got a pilot script and Nora and Lilla Zuckerman wrote it and Chloe Zhao was on board and they all developed it together. There will. At this stage when you have a pilot script, there'll be masses and masses of toing and froing and redrafts. There will be many redrafts of the pilot script. You know, why now? What's new about this? Why should we do that? You know, what's the kind of.

[Richard Osman]

What's Hulu about it?

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, exactly.

[Richard Osman]

All of that stuff remind me of what Hulu is again.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, it's basically. Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Because I remember last week you said it was this. And now you seem to have changed your mind. But anyway, change it. I mean, I've literally just won an Oscar. But of course, if they go for

[Marina Hyde]

it and they say they're going to make a pilot, then it's all the way back to the drawing board again. Because then they will have had a writer's room with lots and lots of writers. Then you would have had world building. You would have said, who are actually the characters? Is that. Do we like what we've done with the script? Maybe not. Then they would. You would map out the season, everybody's arcs, the whole thing, the how it all Ends.

Right.

[Richard Osman]

That's the important thing is if you are doing a pilot, almost always alongside a pilot, you would also be doing a series Bible, which is, listen, anyone, not anyone can make an amazing pilot, but you can make a, you know, an amazing storyline across an hour. You have to then go, oh, by the way, here are the next 7, 8, 12 hours. This is the arc.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. And it ends here. By the way, of course, you're gonna get another six seasons out of us.

[Richard Osman]

And those. Those Bibles are incredibly detailed, and you'll often spend much more time on the Bible than you would on the actual script.

[Marina Hyde]

Absolutely. And so they will have done that. Then they will have said, okay, we're ordering the pilot.

So they will shoot the pilot.

And then maybe they will say, okay, in conjunction with that, we'd like to do a script order, not an episode order, for the rest of the season. So then all the scripts for the rest of the season will be worked out, or they'll be at a certain draft stage, and you'll have to go back to the writers room for all of that.

[Richard Osman]

If, by the way, this sounds like a pain in the ass, you are absolutely right.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, my God, it takes a lot.

[Richard Osman]

Television is like the so awful.

[Marina Hyde]

And by the way, in America, with American money at this point, millions has already been spent on this thing, and it will have been already on this Buffy thing.

[Richard Osman]

And more to the point, an awful lot of opinions have been put in.

[Marina Hyde]

So many opinions now. Variety have got the draft of the shooting script. So what was actually shot. No one has actually seen the pilot apart from the people who have seen it. It hasn't leaked, and they did it last summer. Hulu sources were saying things like, it's unsalvageable, it's undershot. There's no exposition, there's no coverage.

It's under direct. I mean, this is a mega drive by on Chloe Zhao.

Buffy's just at the end. Or anyway, they did a rewrite even after that, saying, okay, we could reshoot. There could be more actual original Buffy in it of Sarah Michelle Gellar. And there's an acknowledgement, always with they'd made it quite young, that the fandom has aged now, so perhaps we could

have something a bit more for the age group of the fandom.

Sarah Michelle Gellar has come out completely swinging and said, there's an executive at Hulu who wasn't even familiar with the

original, said he'd never watched it all

the way through, didn't even care.

She's more confirmed that it's him?

[Richard Osman]

Craig Erwich? Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

I mean, he'll be having some death threats against him right now, let me tell you.

[Richard Osman]

But you. But you know the thing with Craig Irwitz, right, who was at Hulu, and so this is made by 20th Century Television. They pitched to Hulu. Craig Irwich says, do you know what? I'm not a Buffy fan. This is not for me, by the way. It happens sometimes. The exec is not the right person. What you do then is you go, well, look, it's still Buffy. So we come back as 20th century television. We take this elsewhere. However, Craig Owicz has just left Hulu and has a new job as the head of 20th century television. So the guy who just said no to it is now in charge of. Should we take this elsewhere? Yeah, that's bad timing.

[Marina Hyde]

It's really bad timing. And it's really hard. And it's got so. I mean, as I say, it's got so messy. It's interesting now because you've got. You've always had this in science fiction, but you've got. 90s IP is absolutely massive because we live in a reboot world. And so you've got lots of people

who were fans of the original thing

when they were young and teenagers, like, I don't know, Phoebe Waller Bridge doing Tomb Raider or Chloe Zhao doing this. And you've always had this in science fiction. You know, lots of Star Trek people came. Came through.

And lots of, you know, J.J. abrams

did the first reboots of Star Wars. So it's. It's difficult. You have got people who are huge names who are suddenly like, oh, well, I would, you know, I want to do Buffy.

[Richard Osman]

Well, if. What? If you can imagine the amount of projects that Chloe Zhao was offered after winning the Oscar. I mean, the world would have been her oyster. She's just done Hamnet. So, you know, everyone wants her to do stuff.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, maybe she should. I mean.

[Richard Osman]

And she's suddenly going, no, the thing I want to do, because it's really meaningful to me. The thing I want to do is Buffy.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, she wanted to do a Marvel film as well, and she had an absolute nightmare on that. I wonder whether these properties are totally suited to these kinds of directors. But anyhow, it's quite difficult to see what will happen now because she was obviously very. In terms of like, are we gonna get another one? It's hard to see how. Cause Sarah Michelle Gadda was so aligned with this and was so part of it all. She might be persuaded, if you're really clever, to go with somebody else. But that is a big talent management

job after this now.

I mean, this is such a big blow up. It's quite difficult. And I think you do need her involved. You're dealing also with very, very difficult fandoms. And they know that from the start. They don't want to put something out that will enrage the fandoms.

It really helps if Sarah Michelle Galler is involved.

In fact, you definitely need it because it's an obsessive fandom. But I don't know. I think it's. This is. This is a big blowout and it should never have got as far as it has. And obviously they've annoyed lots of great talent.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

You know, lots of them.

[Richard Osman]

And one of the things about it is, you know, the new economics of television and things do have to get cheaper and cheaper. And this. They say that the budget for this pilot was about 17 million. And, you know, the per hour cost of the series would not be far off that as well. And 10, 15, 20 years ago, you could have got away with it. You can't get away with it now. I mean, now you can get away with 9 million, which still is absurd, but 70 million was a lot. And yeah, you get it. Maybe they left it to the last minute because there were so many powerful people involved and it felt like such a snap.

[Marina Hyde]

I think they did. I think it's hard, but they were

[Richard Osman]

like, well, surely we can't say no. And how do we say no? Who's going to say no to Chloe? Who's going to tell Sarah? And so maybe they sort of chickened out of saying no to it until the very, very last minute. I think they did it like two days before the Oscars. And they said, poor Chloe Zhao, she's just had this news just before the Oscars. You're like, she's all right, she's at the Oscars. Yeah, she don't mind.

[Marina Hyde]

I think they've. It'll be one of those ones that goes on the back burner for a long time now, unless they manage to do an unbelievable salvage job with Sarah

[Richard Osman]

Michelle Geller, which they'll make it one day. I think lots of the publicity around it also shows that people really want this reboot to happen. So, you know, there'll be a way. Craig just needs to take Sarah Michelle, get her to lunch. Just some, some. Some Detentes needed.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, anyway, that Buffy stuff is interesting, so we'll be carrying on to see how that story develops. But, Richard, I have a question for you from JP Jones. He says hello both.

And I read that the original film

of Daphne Di Mario's Rebecca was so popular in Spain that the particular cardigans

worn by the unnamed heroine are still called Rebecca's there today. Are there other examples where Hollywood or

British films left that kind of mark on everyday life or language in another country?

[Richard Osman]

Thank you, jp. I had not heard that, but, yeah, I've looked into it and yeah, cardigans in Spain are called Rebecca's. And it is absolutely because of that. Films absolutely leave their mark culturally all the time. We talked before about, you know, the mafia just talk like everyone talks like in Godfather. But my. My favorite ones, I think are so paparazzi. You know this. We know paparazzi very, very well. And that comes from a character in La Dolce Vita who was a press photographer and his name was Paparazzo. And so we call them the paparazzi. And it literally just comes from that one character in that one film. And that's a lovely one, I think. Bucket List, which comes from the film the Bucket List. The Bucket List was not named after the fact that everyone had bucket lists. It was just called a bucket list. And now we call those things A bucket list is the Morgan Freeman Jack Nicholson movie from 2007. But my favorite one, Very, very well known now, but it comes from a 1944 film, so about a man who psychologically drives his wife insane, lies to her, bends reality so she has a nervous breakdown. And that film, it's called Gaslight. That's the best one of all, isn't it?

[Marina Hyde]

Strangely, sort of fallen completely out of

use, and then in this political era, became a massive word that's used almost all the time.

[Richard Osman]

Imagine if people now went to look that up and it didn't exist. Oh, man, they'd be furious with me. The whole thing based on a Patrick Hamilton play. But the movie is where that term came into being. So paparazzi, Bucket list and Gaslight would be my three favorites. But I'm gonna add Rebecca to that as well. Rebecca. That's a great fact, isn't it, Rebecca? Cardigans.

[Marina Hyde]

That is fascinating. Shall we now go to a break?

[Richard Osman]

I would love to. Afterwards, I think we've got a question about House of Games.

[Marina Hyde]

We have.

[Richard Osman]

Remember that show? This episode is brought to you by People's Postcode Lottery.

[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

Yeah, a big, grand house might suggest there's some inheritance dispute. Lawyers already inside this fog outside, you know exactly where you are with that sort of location. But sometimes locations can be your very own house.

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[Richard Osman]

Welcome back, everybody. Marina, a question from Sophie. Sophie says Deux Moi are reporting that Zendaya and Tom Holland have tied the knot in secret without any photos leaking. How is that even possible with such high profile names?

[Marina Hyde]

Ah, well, yeah, I think they definitely have got married. And that's nice. Yeah, it's lovely.

Yeah, it's lovely.

And it's sort of been confirmed, but

hilariously, by Zendaya, the only person who actually opened his big mouth is Laura Roach, who is Zendaya's stylist. And he accidentally confirmed it all. Having said that, I mean, she looks incredible at all times. She simply can't lose him over this.

[Richard Osman]

Yes. Yeah, he's just Too good. He's too good. He's got too much in the bank.

[Marina Hyde]

But you can keep these things small and secretive and many have. Brad and Angelina did it, Beyonce and Jay Z, Margot Robbie and Tom Ackerley, Rachel Weiss, Daniel Craig. I mean, lots of people do it. You can either do it like you're

doing it at home or on your vineyard that you're now fighting about in the divorce in the case of Brad and Angeline, or you can do it,

you know, in an apartment.

You. The English countryside is quite a popular one. Like, you know, Cumberbatch did that.

But you take people's phones, you do NDAs or you just. I would have thought they kept it very small, to be perfectly honest. But it's quite interesting when I think of all of these things, I do think that there is a big divide opening up because we live in an influencer culture and we live in a, you know, a culture where there's a

new whole new massive, massive, massive middle class of so called celebrities who are

really influencers who are always on and they are always sharing everything about their lives. And it's almost as if stars have

worked out that the one thing that

they have, the clever ones, even someone like Timothee Chalamet, who, if you're telling me that that guy isn't so online,

I can't believe it. That guy is extremely online and yet he managed to keep his relationship with

Kylie Jenner effectively secret for about two years. So it's interesting, there is a divide opening up between people like Zendaya and Tom Holland and Timothee Chalamet and people like that who still think that, okay, the one thing I can, because I simply can't be always on in the same way because it just, you know, denudes my work of all value is that I can have an air of mystery and I can be secretive and

the not knowing can be the always on part.

And it's quite interesting and I definitely see that we're opening up because you're dealing with otherwise just this entire trying to put blue water between yourself and people who are just a completely different kind of celebrity. So I find it quite interesting that people are still being secretive and trying to say that secrecy and privacy is a prestige quality.

[Richard Osman]

Well, we spoke the other day, didn't we, when we talk about Harry and Meghan, about how actually they don't have any actual transferable skills, that what they're selling is themselves. Whereas if you're Tom Holland and Zendaya, you don't need to Sell who you are because you can just go and do a film to make your money. And so most people, if they got married, who are influencers, they're like, oh, my God, this is. This is one of the big ones for us. Yeah, we absolutely have to just hammer this and we have to make as much money as we possibly can. Whereas those two, literally, they can just go and do another movie so they can keep that. That. That privacy.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. And they want. And they want to because they realize it's a. Even. It's a. The whole class of them think it's a USP in a world of sort of vanishing ideas of stardom. This is something that. It remains something. The not knowing.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

Is the. Is the most unique question.

[Richard Osman]

But also it's not even that as it's. Psychologically, it's important to them to have something that is just them when they're so in the public eye, to have something where they just go, no, this is. This is just us. And, you know, the normality of that must be. Must. Must be lovely. Oh, good for them.

[Marina Hyde]

Congrats to Zendaya and Tom Holland.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

Big fans of both.

[Richard Osman]

Huge fan of. Of the rest is history. Love it.

[Marina Hyde]

We've got so many variations of this question that. Can I just ask it coming from me as well, is Richard Osmond's House of Games now going to be called Michael Sheen's House of Games?

[Richard Osman]

Well, yes. So we haven't spoken about it at all, have we, since. Since that announcement was. Took some people by coming at you

[Marina Hyde]

right out of left field.

[Richard Osman]

Coming out of left field. I mean, it's sort of left field. But then at the same time, you kind of get it because Michael has always done quizzes. You know, he's always done that. And he's doing such an incredible amount of work with the National Theatre of Wales now and really launching that. So, you know, he's having a year of theater and, you know, giving back to his community. So I imagine had a little bit of time where he could do something interesting and something that's close to his heart and this is it. And he's so personable, likes quizzing, likes human beings had a bit of free time. So it sort of makes a lot of sense.

[Marina Hyde]

You know, the thing that you.

The minute you told me this, literally the first thing I thought was, oh,

my God, please can you do the Christmas week in and each day be.

Do it as an impression?

Because obviously he is peerless.

[Richard Osman]

Taranton Monday.

[Marina Hyde]

Could Taryn on Monday, because which he

obviously played in Quiz Clarkson on Tuesday. Please, please, can he do that? I really hope that he does that. It would be such.

[Richard Osman]

Yes, it is. So they haven't started filming yet. So what's it going to be called? I lobbied, you know, for a long time that it should be called Michael Sheen's Richard Osmond's House of Games or Richard Osmond's House of Games featuring Michael Sheen. But it's a deal breaker. Yeah, but they won't have it. So, yeah, it will be Michael Sheen's House of Games and his, you know, avatar will be on all of those prizes. People say, what's happening with all the old prizes? And we tend not to over order with the prizes.

[Marina Hyde]

So unlike Meghan's jam, which we were talking about on Tuesday, you don't have

10 million surplus suitcases.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, we don't. I'm afraid there are. There are very few left. But, yeah, you know, one of the things they're currently doing is producing prizes with his face on. So it will be called Michael Sheen's House of Games. I'm gonna go up and do one final week and do, funnily enough, in the same way that it's important to have Sarah Michelle Guetta in the Buffy reboot.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

I think we all want everyone to know how delighted we are that Michael's doing it and that, you know, there's a continuation. So we'll do, you know, he's not going to be a cool contestant with me or anything, but we'll do a little handover, little kind of something or other, because I want to welcome him as well, because he's got the best team in Teddy there and he'll have an absolute ball. So, yeah, I'm gonna do one final week and then he's gonna do 100 of them. So that, that will be the series that comes on in the autumn. And the other thing people say, would you go on? And I wouldn't straight away is the truth. I think that's too meta. And also, you have to let someone get their feet under the table. But one day, I'd love to. That's a come and get me blue. But in a few years. Yeah, Christmas week or something like that. Yeah. Because, you know, I play along with that show all the time anyway. I never. I never know the answer. So I, you know, I do get to play a lot, but I'm never allowed to buzz in. So, yeah, it'd be nice to watch it buzz in.

[Marina Hyde]

So you get that finger on that buzzer. Yes, that would be very fun.

[Richard Osman]

People Were so lovely when I left and very, very kind. And. And. But then when he's announced, everyone's like, listen, Richard, we will still miss you. We will still miss you. But that's. That's not bad. Okay, that's nice. But I. Listen, I wish him such luck. It's such a. I messaged him the other day. I said this. It's such a fun show to do and such a lovely gang. You'll have an absolute ball. And I think it's a great show for him and he's a great host for it. That's Michael Sheen's Richard Osman's House of Games. Here's a question. I think both of us will have a view on this. Nerius Fry.

[Marina Hyde]

What a great name.

[Richard Osman]

I know. It's really good, isn't it? Narayas Fry. Possibly. Either way, it's great. She or he says the manga One Piece celebrated 600 million copies being sold by having its author write down the identity of the One Piece, which is the series mysterious MacGuffin put in a chest and then sent the chest to the bottom of the ocean. Can I get your top three favorite film and TV MacGuffins? Shall we start by explaining what MacGuffins are for people who don't know?

[Marina Hyde]

Yes. Now, this is a term coin by Hitchcock, and it's an object or a person or a secret that drives the plot because all the characters are motivated to pursue it in some way. But it doesn't actually. It's not actually that important to the narrative.

[Richard Osman]

It was actually coined by one of his screenwriters, Angus MacPhail, who did spellbound and did Whiskey Galore and stuff like that. Hitchcock always said that no one knows where the phrase comes from other than sort of like a whatchamacallit, an ujima thingy, like a MacGuffin. It's like a little bit of business.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. He said it's the thing that the characters on screen worry about, but the audience doesn't care about. I always find this a really useful

analogy for things in real life when you think, oh, we're not actually arguing about this. This is about something completely different.

This is just a sort of plot device. But George Lucas later changed it and he said, oh, I think it's as important to the audience as to the

characters, but I think that's very much

a kind of filmmaker. He is.

[Richard Osman]

But absolutely. Classical versions would be the Golden Fleece, the Holy Grail, just the thing that starts the quest. And actually you sort of forget about what that that might be. And it's actually when you really start. Because I've been. I saw this question. I've been thinking quite hard about it, and it's quite hard sometimes to go, no, hold on. Is that a MacGuffin? Because I think that.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes. Well, the Lucas definition is different.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

As you can see. And you know, some people will say that the one ring in Lord of the Rings or something, but the Maltese

[Richard Osman]

Falcon would be a very good example. So I was gonna say.

[Marina Hyde]

I'm not gonna put it on my. It's.

[Richard Osman]

I'll put it in my. I'll put it.

[Marina Hyde]

I love it.

[Richard Osman]

If we're both doing top threes, it's gonna be impossible. We just got to talk around this. So the Maltese Falcon is something that's sent by the Knights Templar of Malta to the King of Spain. Pirates steal it, everyone wants it back, and one of the greatest films ever is written. But the thing itself, it's sort of meaningless. It's just the prompt for the action.

[Marina Hyde]

That's a really classic one. I have to say that Another film which is kind of. Lots of these films, people don't watch them so much, but Spanish Prisoner, David Mamet's Spanish Prisoner, is so good. And if you haven't ever seen it, watch it because you'll absolutely love it.

It's got something called the in that, which is. They're all trying to get their hands on the process.

Wouldn't put those in my top three. I would say three Rosebud, the dying word in Citizen Kane, which ends up being the framing device that is deliberately

something that they just thought, we have to find a way. A framing device for this. Whatever. Number two.

I would put the Ark of the

Covenant from Raiders of the Lost.

These are all from films, by the

way, I watch on repeat.

[Richard Osman]

So the arc, I think, is okay because it is something. Whereas the Holy Grail. No one quite knows what the Holy Grail is.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes, I agree, but the arc is sort of. And it's difficult. I won't turn this over and over in my mind because it is kind of like, okay, it's really, really important.

But also, we don't really know what. No one particularly knows who it is, what it is.

It's not like, you know, the Turin Shroud or something. That's even more obvious. And also the ability to, you know, to put it into that great warehouse in that amazing iconic shot right at the end where it's like. Obviously it doesn't really. But equally, I'm. You're thinking, in that warehouse, my God,

what else is in there.

So it does seem like it's important.

[Richard Osman]

Before we get to number one, are you aware of the concept of plot coupons, which is. A sci fi writer called Nick Lowe came up with it, and it. And it's a version of a MacGuffin, but that is split into lots. So the Horcrux is sort of. It's a series of plot coupons. You have to collect all of them, and when you add them together, they

[Marina Hyde]

become a MacGuffin, the Infinity Stones and. Yeah, all of this sort of stuff.

Yes, I agree.

But number one, as I say, I've just chosen them for movies I've watched on repeat, is the rug, the Dude's rug in the Big Lebowski, which is

genuinely an object of no value, except it really tied the room together. I end up using that line a huge amount. Just in normal life.

It really tied the room together. They work so well, particularly in Noir MacGuffins, because they've got to make all these people. And obviously the Maltese Falcon is a real example of that.

[Richard Osman]

What are we all chasing after?

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

What are we chasing after?

Comedy, noir. The Big Lebowski, one of my favorite movies of all time.

So, yeah. The Dude's rug in the Big Lewsky. I'm going to put it number one. How about you?

[Richard Osman]

Well, I'll just mention a couple of Hitchcock ones because he did popularize the term. So the military secrets in the 39th steps, it's. We never know what they are. We forget that it sort of doesn't matter because we're watching a different movie equally. You know, if. If you think about Psycho, you say, okay, what's. What's Psycho about? Nobody says. It's about the fact that Marion Crane.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Steals $40,000, you know.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

That's the MacGuffin of that movie.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

And even at the end of that movie, it's sort of, you know, it's buried in a bog and they go, I suppose we could. Could dig it up. But it's. By then, it doesn't matter because we watched this extraordinary film that was about something else entirely. But the MacGuffin there is $40,000. I say, is it my number one, the one that is so the most obviously a MacGuffin and made by a filmmaker who knows his film history. Is the suitcase in Pulp Fiction.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Where all the way through, they open the suitcase and it's glowing gold. But you never know what it is. You never know what's in it. But the entirety of that film, you know, despite how well it's put together. And the kind of the way that it's told is based around that one suitcase, which we have no idea at any point what it is. So that I'm going to put as my number one. I love. When I'm writing, I love a MacGuffin. I was trying to think about when I was trying to define what a MacGuffin is. It is quite hard. It sort of is something that we don't care about or has no intrinsic worth, but at the same time, the characters do. It's. Yeah, you know. You know a MacGuffin when you see one. And in the Last Devil to Die, which is the fourth Thursday Murder Club book, I have a Box Full of Heroin, which is an absolute 100% classic MacGuffin that I was very, very proud of. The reasons that people who've read that book will know. But it's, you know, screenwriters, writers love a MacGuffin. Just this thing that everyone goes, I must have that. Yeah, I must have that thing. It's like, you know, characters that are off stage that, you know, we. We never meet. You know, there's all these. Those are kind of character MacGuffins. Some people say that Private Ryan and Saving Private Ryan were killed as a MacGuffin. I don't know so much.

[Marina Hyde]

It's disrespectful.

[Richard Osman]

I read something saying that Kaiser Soze is a MacGuffin. I don't agree with that.

[Marina Hyde]

No, that's not. That's not. That's a misunderstanding of it.

That's something completely different.

[Richard Osman]

This is just one for people at home because I was thinking about it. The Lavender Hill Mob, the Golden Eiffel Towers. Are they a MacGuffin? In the end, I decided they weren't a MacGuffin.

[Marina Hyde]

No, I think you're. I would go with maybe the gold,

[Richard Osman]

when it's gold is a MacGuffin.

[Marina Hyde]

Go and watch some of these if

you haven't seen them, because all of

these are such great.

There's lots of. If there's a few obscure. More have become more obscure movies now.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

But watch them because they're all brilliant.

[Richard Osman]

Thank you so much for that question. And also, if you. If you have not come across the term MacGuffin before, it's a really lovely term.

[Marina Hyde]

Speaking of movies that probably have MacGuffins in, but have a load of other stuff, we are doing a special bonus for our members about Mockbusters, which is

[Richard Osman]

this huge sort of sub industry, used to call them B movies of films that directly copy big blockbuster films.

[Marina Hyde]

Homage Richard Homage.

[Richard Osman]

Homages and a pretty big business. There's some amazing stories in it. So. Wrestlersentertainment.com if you want to sign up for that. Actually listening all of that malarkey. Thank you for your questions. That was.

[Marina Hyde]

That was fun.

[Richard Osman]

I feel like we got through a lot.

[Marina Hyde]

We did.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

And we'll see you next Tuesday.

[Richard Osman]

See you next Tuesday.

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[Richard Osman]

So if you've been living in the

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