Could ITV Poach The Traitors?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Entertainment

Episode: "Could ITV Poach The Traitors?"

Hosts: Richard Osman & Marina Hyde
Release Date: November 13, 2025

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Episode Overview

Richard Osman and Marina Hyde return with a listener Q&A episode, offering deep dives into media controversies, television business insider knowledge, and pop culture trends. The show’s key themes this week include the controversy around Mary Earps’ autobiography serialization, the business behind shifting TV formats like "The Traitors," and the mechanics of major IP collaborations in video games such as Fortnite. The duo wraps up with a lighthearted exploration of staging Paddington in musical theatre.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The Mary Earps Autobiography Controversy

Timestamp: 02:26–13:15

Background

• Mary Earps, former England women’s football goalkeeper, released her autobiography "All In", with serialized extracts published in The Guardian. The content spurred backlash, especially among football fans and former teammates.

Insider Perspective on Book Serialization

• Process Explained:

  • A ghostwriter (Deborah Linton, in Earps' case) helps shape the athlete’s story.
  • Serialization is usually a win-win for authors (publicity, revenue) and publishers/newspapers (attention-grabbing, newsworthy content).
  • Serializing outlets like The Guardian often buy rights to select up to a set word count, choosing the most headline-worthy and dramatic segments.

• Authorial Control:

  • The subject typically signs off on the book, but may not always scrutinize every detail. Marina:

    "It goes without saying that Mary Earps signed off on every single thing." (06:06)

  • Agents sometimes try (with mixed success) to steer outlets away from spinning the serialization as pure controversy.

Why the Backlash?

• The serialization highlighted feuds and criticisms of named individuals (e.g., Hannah Hampton, Serena Wiegman), leading some to accuse Earps of "airing dirty linen".

• Management and agent guidance appears lacking. Marina opines:

  “It's a failing of agent or management care... if she really didn't understand serialization rights.” (08:04)

• Women's football fandom is described as unusually intense, drawing comparisons to K-pop fan culture in its idiosyncrasies and potential toxicity.

Notable Quotes

• On the "my truth" genre:

  “You live in a world of 'this is my truth', but actually, sometimes your truth is not very palatable to others.” – Marina Hyde (11:24)

• On titling sports memoirs:

  “Taking the gloves off. That's what she should have called it. Mary Earps: Taking the Gloves Off.” – Richard Osman (12:06)

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2. Could ITV (or Channel 4) Poach "The Traitors"?

Timestamp: 13:16–18:02

Rights & TV Format Transfers

• Shows like "Bake Off" and "The Voice" famously migrated from the BBC to commercial channels after initial success.

• How it works:

  • TV formats are owned by production companies (e.g., Studio Lambert for "The Traitors"), not broadcasters.
  • After contractual windows expire with the original broadcaster, shows can be sold to the highest bidder.

• Key Factors for a Move:

  • Practicality: A gap year or two is usually required due to exclusivity clauses.
  • Motivation: Production companies may "cash in" after several successful series (as Love Productions did with "Bake Off"), but only when it makes business sense.
  • Audience reach: BBC1 provides maximum impact at present; a move would likely hurt ratings.

• Outlook:

  • Studio Lambert is deeply allied with the BBC and unlikely to jump ship soon.
  • Hosts, particularly Claudia Winkleman, are happy and integral to the format’s success.

Notable Quotes

• On commercializing big TV hits:

  "There's not a business in the world where we wouldn't then just sell it to somebody else." – Richard Osman (13:41)

• On the current state of Traitors:

  “I would think it's safe up until the point where it's down to lower ratings... But right now, it's very healthy at the BBC.” – Richard Osman (16:36)

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3. IP Collaborations in Fortnite

Timestamp: 19:58–26:34

How Do Major Franchises Get Into Fortnite?

• Revenue Models:

  • Deals can be a paid license (e.g., Epic pays Disney for Star Wars skins), a promotional partnership (brands pay Epic to include products/skins), or revenue sharing models.
  • Some collaborations are mutually beneficial, involving no money directly exchanged if both brands gain status or audience (e.g., Metallica concerts in-game draw in fans who might not otherwise play Fortnite).

• Why Fortnite Leads:

  • Other games (like Roblox) have some crossovers, but Fortnite dominates due to its scale and flexibility.
  • Early adopter advantage: Brands now see appearing in Fortnite as adding luster and broadening their demographics.

Notable Quotes

• On mutual benefit collaborations:

  “There is a status trade-off. Essentially, which is Fortnite want to constantly be updating their game... if you're the Simpsons, what, go into Fortnite? Yes, I see the status of that.” – Richard Osman (24:37)

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4. Paddington the Musical – Bringing a Bear to Life on Stage

Timestamp: 26:34–29:52

Staging the Beloved Bear

• Stagecraft Approach:

  • Paddington is played live by Artie Shah (four feet tall) inside the bear suit, for physical presence.
  • Voice and facial expressions are performed remotely by James Hamid, using robotics to synchronize with Artie’s movements.

• Design Principles:

  • The goal was to keep the audience’s focus on Paddington alone, not a sea of puppeteers, for a sense of vulnerability and magic.
  • Designed by Tara Zafar (noted for her work on the 2012 Olympic ceremony and the PG Tips monkey).

Fun Fact

• Preparation involved Artie training by "sitting in a sauna fully clothed for a week" to withstand the heat and physical demands of performing in a wool costume.

Notable Quotes

• On performance magic:

  “She does want it to be magical, and quite rightly, because what's more magical than going to see Paddington... for real?” – Richard Osman (28:53)

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Memorable Moments

• Book Title Brainstorming:
  • Richard and Marina riff on alternative titles for Mary Earps' autobiography, landing on “Gloves Off," only to discover Tyson Fury already used it (12:09).
• Comparing Fan Cultures:
  • Marina draws a unique parallel between women's football fans and K-pop stans in their intensity and scrutiny (09:51).
• Paddington Trivia:
  • Tara Zafar’s career path, from PG Tips monkey to Paddington, draws admiration from both hosts (27:42).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |--------------------------------------------|-------------| | Mary Earps Book Serialisation | 02:26–13:15 | | Could ITV Poach The Traitors? | 13:16–18:02 | | Fortnite IP Partnerships | 19:58–26:34 | | Paddington the Musical Stagecraft | 26:34–29:52 |

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Tone & Style

Richard and Marina’s banter is witty, self-aware, and incisively irreverent. They balance industry savvy with playful asides—even when deep-diving into confusing IP mechanics or the inside baseball of TV format rights. This makes the show both informative for media insiders and accessible for casual listeners.

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Final Thoughts

For listeners seeking insight into the realities behind media headlines—be it sports controversies, blockbuster TV negotiations, or the alchemy of kidult cultural icons—this episode offers both accessible explanations and a smattering of showbiz wit. Questions for next week’s high-profile guest, BBC content chief Kate Phillips, are solicited, promising another layer of behind-the-curtain candor and analysis.

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Transcript

[Richard Osman]

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[Marina Hyde]

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Wrestlers Entertainment Questions and Answers edition. I'm Marina Hyde.

[Richard Osman]

And I'm Richard Osman. Hello, Marina.

[Marina Hyde]

Hello, Richard. How are you?

[Richard Osman]

I'm all right. I was right on Tuesday's episode. I've yet to watch another episode of All's Fair. The Kim Kardashian.

[Marina Hyde]

There's still time.

[Richard Osman]

There's still time. I just. I don't have the itch.

[Marina Hyde]

Not drunk enough. I just. Yeah. There's a world in which you've had three cocktails. In which you could.

[Richard Osman]

Where I might do.

[Marina Hyde]

Where you might just dive in for a moment.

[Richard Osman]

I wonder if I could ask you a question.

[Marina Hyde]

Please do.

[Richard Osman]

Well, not me, but Bedwyr Gulage has a question for you that's a good name. Bedwyr asks, I would be interested to hear your takes on the Ferrari, which has surrounded the release of Mary Earp's autobiography. When a book is sold for serialization in a newspaper, how much influence does the author have over what excerpts are published in the paper?

[Marina Hyde]

Mary Earp. So former England number one, then England number two goalkeeper, and now internationally retired, but still plays for psg. There's been a huge backlash against her book all in, which was serialized in the Guardian. And in the serialization there was a lot of airing of dirty linen, endless beefs, feuds, sort of drive by on Hannah Hampton, England number one goalkeeper, on Serena Wiegman. Then Sonja Bompastor, the Chelsea women's manager, chimed in to protect Hannah Hampton. And Mary Epps herself has done a number of interviews, posts in which she said she's tried to sort of do cleanup on this backlash and shift the blame to the way that the extracts have been done. Which is why you're asking this question. Bedri and I understand it and in some cases she's made it even worse. So anyway, in order to answer this question, I've spoken to various people, like ghost writers, agents and people who do the extracts for these books. So how a book like this would work the women's game is very different to the men's game. Your management are going to think there's a moment for you to cash in. And whereas you can be quite long past retirement if you're in the you play men's football and think, actually I will now do my book for women. There's this perception that it's kind of a trolley dash. You've got to do it while anyone knows who you are.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

And so what happens is that they, they find a ghostwriter and they, they talk a lot. The person said Mary Ups will have and I think her ghost writer was Deborah Linton. And I think they talk. They talk.

[Richard Osman]

And by the way, in sports biographies, often completely above board, they are traditionally written by ghostwriters. They're credited and you know, some you

[Marina Hyde]

don't have to be good at writing books when you are literally an international ex.

[Richard Osman]

So we team you up with someone who's amazingly good at writing books.

[Marina Hyde]

Atherton can do it, but not everyone else has to be able to do it.

[Richard Osman]

And also a lot of ghostwriters, a lot of non fiction writers, love to tell the story of sports people because there's so much incredible emotion, so much jeopardy, so much it's, you know, interesting stories to tell, more interesting than saying, you know, the autobiography of a light entertainment presenter.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, it's interesting that Prince Harry's biography, there was a lot of interesting stuff to be told in that one, but, you know, was primarily known for doing like that amazing Andre Agassi book. Anyway, what that ghostwriter will then do is shape the book into an narrative, some kind of an arc, rather than just sort of formless tide of experience. And then we get. Move on to serialization. Now serialization, when you write a book, if you get it serialized, it's great for two things. It's great for publicity because it gets your book out there in places that, so that people know it's happening. And you also get money, you're paid for that. So that comes back against your advance or whatever it is. So you'll be, you'll be pleased with that. Now the Guardian was a good place for Mary Ips's book to be serialized because there's a lot of women's football cover coverage. There's no paywall. So it's, it's a really great place for your book to be out there. Okay, now in the old days, what happened? And still really to this day, you, when you're doing a contract to serialize a book, you, you buy a certain number of words, but you've bought the book and you can basically take what you like and you've bought lock, stock and barrel. And you could, you. But you'll say, okay, we're doing a 6,000 word serialization or whatever it is, but you're allowed to take pretty much 6,000.

[Richard Osman]

I mean, you can't just take individual words and then put them in a different order.

[Marina Hyde]

That I believe would be transgressive. And of course, the way this has always worked is that they pick the most sensational or the funny or the dramatic bits. But that's not just what they do. And we'll come.

[Richard Osman]

And the most newsworthy bits, presumably the

[Marina Hyde]

bits, the bits that are going to. There's a headline that other people are going to think. I've got to mention that when you're doing the ghost writing the book, it goes without saying that Mary Earps signed off on every single thing.

[Richard Osman]

She told those stories.

[Marina Hyde]

She told those stories and she would have been shown the manuscript. Is there anything here you don't like? Okay.

[Richard Osman]

I bet some people don't read it. Yeah, I bet some people go, it's fine. And I said it all, so I'm sure it's. Yeah, anything I said is okay. But I do have time to read My own book.

[Marina Hyde]

Like some of the forms I sign. Yes.

[Richard Osman]

When was the last time you ever, like, read a form? Yeah, I mean, long time ago, right?

[Marina Hyde]

Yes. Anyway, nowadays, because they'll always try their lot, agents do try and push back on some bits and say, well, if you take that, that's obviously just going to be the only story that comes out of the book, and we don't really want that. And sometimes they'll get a fair hearing, or sometimes the people who are contextualizing will say, well, okay, we'll take it, but we're going to put in what leads up to it and what. Whatever happens. So I've talked to the people who buy and extract and run these serializations, and they will say to you, we're not running a trailer for your book. So a lot of people just think, can you just basically run a trailer for my book? No. The extract for the readers needs to work as a complete story. It needs to have a beginning, a middle and an end and not just be some sort of giant teaser that. I'm sure you'd love it if you were the author of the book or the subject of the book. You want to get a microcosm of the narrative within that. And I think the Maryupps book, I think, does contain that. And so someone like Rob Fern at the Guardian, who didn't extract this book, but he extracted, for example, the Virginia Giuffre memoir that the Guardian ran a few weeks ago, talked quite interestingly about that and thinking, well, we knew we wanted the Prince Andrew stuff, because obviously that's the most newsworthy and that's going to be the bit. But we also wanted that moment where she first walks into sort of Mar a Lago and she's scouted basically by Ghislaine Maxwell, Virginia, because you wanted the absolute very start of all this, and then the bit that everyone's. So to find a way of doing that is kind of quite difficult and it's sensitive. And you have to sort of trust a publication with your sensitive material. So what went wrong with Mary Earps book? I would say that that process has to be. You've got to be pastorally cared for by a manager who's going to say at the ghostwriting stage, they will extract if you're going to. Or the. Well, certainly the selling of the rights. Right. You're going to say they're going to pick out all these bits, and her pretending or genuinely perhaps thinking, I don't understand why they've done this is kind of not acceptable. You Should. It's a failing of the kind of agent or management care there really. If she really didn't understand and if she did, then you can't really blame the extractors.

[Richard Osman]

What were the. I love the way you say the extractors as if they're like the SAS or something.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't claim the people who've chosen those things. She obviously aired a lot of her dirty linen.

[Richard Osman]

What were the specific things that she's been in?

[Marina Hyde]

Oh my God, there's so many. There were particular drive bys on Hannah Hampton, on Serena Wiegman and if you're going to attack Team Mitts and people who are still playing and people who have got to play in a game that Saturday, which is why Sonia Bompasta got involved from Chelsea. I mean, yes, it's difficult and no one has stood up for her and I think that's because they think that what she's done is unacceptable and the way she's done it is unacceptable. Her teammates and I've noticed that they've been sort of conspicuous in their silence. But what I think is interesting about and why there should be particular care taking this Nycho. I think to some degree it's a failure of management because they're supposed to look after you. Women's football has become like a really odd entertainment space. It's. It's a very different form of fandom than the men's foot game in lots of ways. And I've seen people say, oh, it's like being a K pop star or something. You know, you get completely picked apart for people's amusement. It's idiosyncratic. It can be toxic in a different way to the men's and I think that not understanding all of that or her not having been made aware of it and then to say to her, you maybe ought to stop trying making it worse by all of just going on saying, oh, this is to do with the way my book's been extracted. I don't think that's fair in this case. And I think the extract, you know, the extract was done fairly but maybe she didn't understand what serialization rights mean, which is that they pick off these bits and everyone will cover them.

[Richard Osman]

It's interesting. So it's good for the Guardian to have these extracts for sure. It is good for the publisher.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

To have these extracts for sure. Because as you say it's always one of the key drivers of early sales. Certainly is if you can get it serialized even. Even these days. Because there was a Period where serialization was not important because newspapers had really declined and the Internet hadn't quite caught up. But now it sort of doesn't matter where it's been serialized, because that story is everywhere.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. It's literally because everybody scrapes it and puts it on their own site.

[Richard Osman]

Exactly. So if you. If you. And as you say, putting it not behind the paywall is. Is amazing because suddenly, you know, everyone's reading it, everyone's seeing it. So it's incredible publicity for that book. It's not great publicity for Mary Earps, and as you say, badly advised, I get, I guess. But I wonder if that is a lifetime of being in a sport that. Where she felt underrepresented and she was trying to get her voice heard and it wasn't being heard, and maybe underestimating quite what a big star she had become and underestimating what a big story women's football had, how it is now right in the heart of our culture, in a way that's incredibly warming, but someone is gonna be the first victim of that.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. You live in a world of this is my truth, but actually, sometimes your truth is not very palatable to others. And I think thinking that this is my story and I can tell it how I like, is a naivety that you just can't enjoy any longer. But I do think there is something peculiar about the fandom around women's football that I think is interesting and that it's much more like other forms of entertainment f. Where people. I just think it's quite odd in some ways. And it's. It's definitely different to the men's game, although, as we see here, can be just as toxic.

[Richard Osman]

Well, if it was the men's game, you'd immediately be signed up for Talk Spot Breakfast.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

As a. As a. As a guest host, you think, oh, this is amazing, this person, isn't it? It's hard. It's hard with footballers. And you can see when they've immediately retired, they're quite uncomfortable having a go at colleagues. It takes them a couple of years before they can really start taking the gloves off. Oh, taking the gloves off. That's what I would have called it. That's what she should have called it. Mary Earpst, Taking the Gloves Off.

[Marina Hyde]

I thought you were talking about the Kardashian show because they all wear their gloves so much that could have been called Gloves Off.

[Richard Osman]

Gloves off is an. Oh, my God. Gloves off is an unbelievably great title for this Autobot. What's it Called.

[Marina Hyde]

It's called All In. Yeah, it should have been called Gloves Off. All In. Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

That's like I've just let them all in. That's a terrible name for a goalkeeper. Is there time? Can we pulp it?

[Marina Hyde]

Well, I mean, I'm sure you delight many of her teammates.

[Richard Osman]

Former teammates didn't know any boxing autobiography called Gloves Off.

[Marina Hyde]

There must be.

[Richard Osman]

Come on, look it up. Yeah, you know, looking it up. Tyson Fury, Gloves Off. I knew it was good. I knew it was good. So I guess Mary Epps couldn't have had Gloves Off. Gloves On. One Glove on, One glove Off. That's what I call it, the Mary Earps Story. The kind of subtitle of her book is Learning to Be Unapologetically Me.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, maybe.

[Richard Osman]

And now you're having to learn to be apologetically, you.

[Marina Hyde]

I have to warn you that the my truth genre is on borrowed time.

[Richard Osman]

One Glove on, One glove off.

[Marina Hyde]

Richard, for you, a question from Chris Atkinson says previously mega popular BBC shows such as Bake off and the Voice have switched to Rivals after becoming a success as the Traitors is not a direct BBC production. Is there a chance a commercial rival could steal the rights?

[Richard Osman]

Yes, absolutely is a chance. And people always get annoyed. Like when Bake off went to Channel 4 and people had a go at Love Productions for doing it. And I think, I think it's cheeky of the channel to take it, but, you know, I understand why. But if you Love Productions, this is. You came up with it, it's your show, you know, you've created it and if someone's going to pay you more money for it, there's not a business in the world where we wouldn't then just sell it to some. Somebody else. But yeah, the Traitors, well, you might

[Marina Hyde]

be happy with its impact. I mean, exactly, by the way. So if the Traitors went to Channel 4, it would still get amazing ratings, but it wouldn't get what it gets on BBC1.

[Richard Osman]

And that's just that it would be a cash in job, like, you know, Love Productions, huge hit, which they weren't really able to cash in that much because you can't do big commercial deals when you're on the BBC and they're on quite a few series of the BBC and I think they took the view. I wonder now if after a long career in television, if we're allowed to cash in, which is what they did and continue to do. So it's worked for them and it's worked for Channel 4 very, very nicely. So Traitors Studio, Lambert is how you make it for the BBC. BBC have got definite one year left on the deal if Studio Lambert then decide to take it elsewhere. The thing that kicks in, which would almost always kick in, which is there is usually one year, sometimes a two year window, I suspect a two year window on the traitors where you are not allowed to show it anywhere else. So if they did want to take it to Channel four, if they wanted to take it to ITV and if you're either of those companies, why would you not want it? They could do it, but we'd have to wait a long time for the next one. It would cost ITV or Channel 4 a fortune to buy it, that's for sure. You know, there's been. Studio Lamb have got, you know, lots of big hits, goggle box and all sorts of things and people are always trying to poach them and, you know, there's ways and means of keeping things on channels and making sure that you're, you're still being paid. But yeah, they could take it. I doubt that they would, as you say, the, the idea that it's so massive. But in like five series time, if we've moved on, who knows?

[Marina Hyde]

Right now we're all, yeah, I mean right now, how could they be unhappy with the reaction it's had on BBC1? It's also the director of programs at BBC, Kate Phillips commissioned this show so you can't say, oh, then the regime changed and the boss has changed at

[Richard Osman]

the moment, at the moment she's absolutely at the heart of it.

[Marina Hyde]

And by the way, can I just say we're having, we're very pleased to say we're having Kate Phillips to do a Q and A next week.

[Richard Osman]

We are. She's the head of all BBC content. So any questions you have and if

[Marina Hyde]

there's anything about the BBC in the news, it's peak your interest at the moment. If you'd love to ask a question about it. We've got Kate next week and she's terrific and do please dig deep questions

[Richard Osman]

and she's behind, she sort of comes from an entertainment background, says behind all of that stuff, but you can, you can ask her anything but about any of those shows. So yes, there's, there's absolutely no reason why you would take it from the BBC at the moment. Claudia is there, Claudia is happy. Studio Lambert are not a company that is looking to cash out because they've already cashed out a number of times. They're not, it's not a situation like love where we thought, you know, what we're waiting for the one big payday, quite rightly, and they did it. Studio Lambert have had their paydays a number of times. They make Race across the World for the BBC, so, you know, they make stuff for everybody. I would think it's safe up until the point where it's down to lower ratings and it would still do a pretty good job for an ITV or a Channel four, but it's less interesting to the BBC at that point. Studio Lambert might say, we'll take it elsewhere and Claudia will probably step back and someone else would do it, but that would be in a long time, I think. I think it's safe and sound. I think you're talking to that amazing gang at Studio Lamb, but I think they knew even a couple of months ago they were all going, you know what this celebrated. It's pretty good.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Everyone was like, it's gosh, this is better than we thought it was going to be. Even, you know, and it's, you know, they're very talented, but they were kind of going, yeah, I think this is quite something. I think they have been taken by surprise about quite how well it's landed and quite what a huge thing it has been and what's coming next.

[Marina Hyde]

I'm so excited that it's acted as a gateway drug into Traitor Dom for people who had not watched the original version and now will be able to in January.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, it's like all the people watching, they're curling at the Olympics, who then watch the World Curling Championships for the next.

[Marina Hyde]

Then they disappear for the. But these, I think these people will be back in January.

[Richard Osman]

They are sticking around. But, you know, I think that the relationship between the BBC and Studio Lamp is very, very strong. Exactly. You know, they're all, everyone's, everyone's rowing the same boat in the same direction and they're very happy to be doing so. So this, this, this is not immediately at risk for anybody, so I wouldn't worry about that. I think it's staying on the BBC and I think it has a, A very healthy future there too.

[Marina Hyde]

Questions about that format and anything else to Kate Phillips, please addresses. The rest is entertainmentgoalhanger.com and we're going to be talking to her next week, which will be lots of fun.

[Richard Osman]

We are indeed. Should we do some adverts?

[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

Welcome back everybody. Question to you Marina from Al Jones, or possibly AI Jones. Let's take a look at how he phrases it and we'll make our mind up. You have asked a question about Fortnite IP. Is this correct? I think it's AI Jones. No, Al says. I'm curious about how collaborations with major IPs work in games like Fortnite. When a popular franchise, for example Simpsons, appears in the game, does Fortnite typically pay for the rights to use the IP or do the IP ownership pay to have their brand featured on such a high visibility platform?

[Marina Hyde]

That's a good question. The answer is that it can work in either of those ways and actually sometimes also both at once in the form of sort of mutual partnerships. But Epic Fortnite's made by Epic and for people who don't play it or haven't seen it, it's a game, but there are from limited time periods other IP intellectual property appears in the form of skins. This is like a way you can look as your avatar can look themed weapons, MA maps like little mini games that come off the main game, new bosses to fight. It's kind of Like a metaverse where everything gets chucked in. So you can have. It's quite hard to explain it. I mean, 15 years ago it'd be like. I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about, but. And you probably. Probably still feel like that way now. But it's. As I said, it's a bit like a metaverse where everything gets chucked in and you can have memes and pop stars and movie characters and fashion brands.

[Richard Osman]

You can play as Mary Earps.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, you could play as Mary Herbs.

[Richard Osman]

One glove on, one glove off.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes, exactly. That's one. That's the skin. And like a sweet little anime character who's now given a machine gun because they're in Fortnite. And so that's what can happen in Fortnite, even though it wouldn't happen in the game that you came from. So if it's somebody else's ip, Epic would usually pay a licensing fee to them. So, like Disney's, like Star wars does various things with them. You get characters, props and the kind of music cues and then sometimes. But what they can do then within the game is charge for those skins. And so, you know, consumers will pay. And so they make money. You know, anime things like My Hero Academia or whatever. Whatever.

[Richard Osman]

If you've got Simpsons skins, for example, there is money to be raised.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes.

[Richard Osman]

From that. And that money is going somewhere.

[Marina Hyde]

If someone is promoting something, so they. That. Then they will usually pay Epic. So say Nike. Nike have marketed Air Jordans via the game, which is quite a simple one to explain, but there's lots of different kinds of marketing and advertising. And you then sometimes you have a revenue share model where, like, lots of people have done concerts like Ariana Grande, Travis Scott, like Metallica, they've done these virtual concerts. The NFL have had some very, very successful kind of mutual partnership. And sometimes even other games, publishers or games themselves, like Halo, will do a crossover. And again, that's a marketing thing. It's interesting that you said in your question, other games like Fortnite, it's really. There aren't really very many other games who do this, or certainly not to the scale. It's almost like Fortnite have eaten everybody's lunch because it's so massive. And they went really early into this because at the start when this started happening, people thought, oh, I don't want to degrade my IP by putting. Putting it. But they were able to persuade a number of people and then people saw how well it worked because it brings people in. So I think I mentioned that, like, Metallica have done a concert. Okay, Most Metallica fans might be middle aged. I'm not categorizing all of them, but they might be middle aged and they might not play Fortnite. If they say to you Metallica are doing two virtual concerts, then Metallica don't do a lot. So you're hearing they're doing two virtual concerts in Fortnite. That's bringing those people into Fortnite. Even if it's only temporary, they might. Might get into it. So it's. It's the absolute prime game for any of these crossovers. And there are certain ones that I remember in the summer we were talking about Grow A Garden and like, someone like Travis Kelsey had done a sort of collaboration and there are collaborations on Roblox, but there they are few. Although Grow A Garden has fallen away. I don't know if I. Oh, no.

[Richard Osman]

Has it? It's weird.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, I told you that what was stealing up on the inside was Steeler Brain Rot, which. It was Steeler brain rot for absolutely miles and miles. And that's been really. Yeah, but he. Jandal, the creator, Grave Garden, slightly ruined that game. Do you remember I told you about that? The Weimar inflation that happened in Grower Garden. So then it was Steeler brain Rot. But I think Steeler Brain Rot itself has now been surpassed by 99 Nights in the Forest, which is currently the number one game on Roblox. And you've got to survive 99 Nights

[Richard Osman]

in the Forest, which is, of course, Ant Bostecoglou's autobiography.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes, exactly. And actually they've made it wonderful for children, really involving. So, yes, that's the answer to that. But it's interesting, Fortnite is such a behemoth and that no one else really does it to the same degree. They're kind of like, you would go

[Richard Osman]

there first with a lot of these collaborations, whether, you know, it could be fast food, it can be video games, it can be anything. There is a status trade off, essentially, which is Fortnite want to constantly be updating their game, which they do all the time themselves. All sorts of different mods, all sorts of different ways to play it. So for them, you think, oh, we could have a Simpsons version of this. I mean, that's. They go, yes, we would like that. That's a fun thing for us. If you're the Simpsons, you go, what, go into Fortnite? Yes, I see the status of that. So on that, who's paying? Who Absolutely wouldn't know, because they're both getting a lot out of that. Because if you're Fortnite, Simpsons is like such a great legacy brand that makes you feel good that, you know, it gives you an extra bit of luster. Everyone's winning on that. As you say, if you're. If you're Nike and you've got a new product, you are going to have to pay. But if you look at the status of who is involved, like Travis Kelsey when he's doing Grow a Garden, that would have been one of 50 things in a meeting with his manager, and he said, we've got this in Grow a Garden. And we go, God, no, I'm not. Of course I'm not going to do that. And then he'd say, let me just take you through the demographics of this. Let me take you through your demographics, which are here and very healthy. Let me take you through the demographics of. Of Grow a Garden, which are very healthy, but also very different to your demographic. So this is like, this is free money for you and Grow a Garden. They're going, who can we have who could do it? Like Travis Kelsey. Oh, he's never going to say yes. And so again with that, no one's having to pay anyone because everyone's making money. So there's some things which are pure advertising. So if it was, for example, a very specific Simpsons Movie thing, then there might be money changing hands. But if there's two bits of media that have their own fandom and have quite, quite a substantial fandom, then the joining together is very, very clear. Understood these days that brands tend to multiply each other rather than divide each other. And so people are very, very happy to be in different fields and for everyone to, you know, the collaborations you see between the wildest companies these days, because they recognize that it works for everyone.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes. And. But Fortnite is Head, Shoulders and I think Full Torso above all the others in terms of this. Now, question for you, Richard, from Emma Withell, who says, having recently become slightly obsessed with the new musical production of Paddington, Paddington the Musical, I can't stop about Paddington's costume and how all the elements come together to work so convincingly. Can you explain what goes into work making Paddington move, speak and sing so expressively when there are so many components at work?

[Richard Osman]

Yes. Particularly if you're doing a stage show because there is no CGI or anything like that. So it's a real thing on the stage. So this is a. I think it's. It's in previews at the moment at the Savoy Theatre. I'm very happy to answer this question because I'll answer anything which is McFly adjacent. And the songs in this have been written by Tom Fletcher from McFly. So it's got Paddington, it's got Tom Fletcher from McFly. What could possibly go wrong? So Tara Zafar is the person who designed Paddington Bear for the stage. She's been working on this since about 2019. She was the head of makeup at the 2012 Olympic ceremony and she made the PG Tips monkey. So, come on. I mean, has anyone had a better career than that?

[Marina Hyde]

That's incredible.

[Richard Osman]

I would like to know.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, well, okay. Well done. Well done, Tara. Carry on.

[Richard Osman]

So Neal Scanlon approached her, he was one of the chief creature makers on Star wars and said, look, we're going to do Paddington. It's going to be live. How do we put this together? So she's been working on it a long time. She said, the first thing we thought is, we started off thinking what we didn't want. Most importantly, we didn't want him to be surrounded by loads of puppeteers. Yeah, okay. So not like, you know, like War Horse or something like that, which is

[Marina Hyde]

amazing, but it's a different, very different vibe.

[Richard Osman]

We wanted audience to see the little bear all by himself, vulnerable in the middle of the stage. So what they've ended up with there is an actor, Artie Shah. And Artie is. She's only. She's four feet tall. Artie, she's in the bear costume. She's in a bear suit for the onstage bear presence. So while backstage, there's a. An actor, it's currently James Hamid, who's controlling the best facial expressions, provides the voice and controls the robotic. You know how that all works remotely. So you've got someone who can do all of the movements actually in the suit, and you've got someone who can do the expressiveness and the acting, who is backstage at the same time. So you've got Artie in the costume, you've got James doing the thing, the face. Tara says that there is an awful lot more to it, which she won't give away, because she does want it to be magical, and quite rightly, because what's more magical than going to see Paddington the Musical and seeing Paddington for real? And, like, what she does say is that Artie, who's in this bear costume, trained for it by sitting in a sauna fully clothed for a week. It's a very physical performance. She's super professional. The bear suit is quite hot. It's made out of sustainable Wool. But that's, that's still wool, right?

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

And said she. And she also assures us that no bears were harmed in any of this process.

[Marina Hyde]

That's a training montage, isn't it? Just sitting in the sort of ready to just go.

[Richard Osman]

More and more clothes.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. Wow. Okay. That's incredible. I really need to see this. I want to go and see this.

[Richard Osman]

Well, this, it's gone. The question is being asked because, you know, I'll say this at the beginning and thank you for the question. This, this bear has gone viral. You can see all sorts of clips of this bear and it does look, look amazing. But how is it done? Yeah. So that's in previews at the moment at the Savoy Theatre. But if you watch it, then hats off to Artie and to James. Gloves off to them both.

[Marina Hyde]

I think that about winds us up for today.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

We will of course be back tomorrow with a bonus episode, part two of the outrageous MTV Story.

[Richard Osman]

And if you want to sign up, it's the wrestlers entertainment.com ad free listening, all that sort of thing.

[Marina Hyde]

Don't forget we'd also love your quote Philip's question questions.

[Richard Osman]

Yes, Please send questions about anything to do with tv, anything on the the BBC for Kate Phillips and we will put them to her.

[Marina Hyde]

That's the rest is entertainment@goal hanger.com and otherwise we will see you next Tuesday.

[Richard Osman]

See you next Tuesday.

[Marina Hyde]

This episode was brought to you by our good friends at Sky.

[Richard Osman]

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[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

And the built in Dolby Atmos doesn't just place out, it performs it think blockbuster sound without leaving the sofa.

[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

And not sure what to watch. Well, Sky's curated recommendation will find something for everyone. Less scroll, more story. And the perfect way to make the most of those longer evenings.

[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

Broadband recommended minimum speed 30 Mbps 18 UK Channel Islands and Isle of Man.

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[Richard Osman]

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