Has The BBC Really Cancelled Doctor Who?

Summary

The Rest Is Entertainment – "Has The BBC Really Cancelled Doctor Who?"

Episode Date: June 15, 2026
Hosts: Richard Osman & Marina Hyde

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Richard and Marina take a deep dive into two of Britain’s great obsessions: the World Cup as a media event and the current furor over Doctor Who’s future. Leveraging their industry expertise and inside connections, the hosts demystify viral TV phenomena, explore changing viewing habits, reveal broadcasting secrets, and set the record straight about recent panicked headlines regarding Doctor Who's fate at the BBC. The show oscillates between playful banter and sharp media insight, offering both fans and curious listeners a ringside seat to contemporary entertainment discourse.

Key Topics & Insights

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1. The World Cup as Hybrid TV & Social Media Event

[04:12–16:31]

• A shift in consumption: Richard and Marina highlight how the World Cup has transformed from a pure television spectacle into a massive cross-platform, social-media-driven event.
• Scheduling headaches: The time-zone difference has led to inconvenient UK kick-off times (late-night and early-morning matches), making live viewing challenging.
• Panel and social coverage explosion: Clips, pundit-filled podcasts, and social shares are filling in gaps for those who can't or won’t watch full matches.
• "The games are the new interruption": Increasingly, fans—especially younger ones—prefer clips, highlights, and surrounding content over full match viewings.
• Content discovery: Going viral is about subscriber acquisition and personal brand building for pundits.
• Ancillary media’s profitability: The "noise" (clips, podcasts, YouTube shows) is becoming more lucrative and easier to scale than owning the expensive broadcast rights.

Quote (Richard Osmand, 06:21):
"What we really love, is a World cup where there's a game at 10 in the morning, there's a game at 2 in the afternoon and then there's a game at 7. That's the perfect World cup for us."

Quote (Marina Hyde, 14:16):
"It's not 90 [minutes] as we knew it. It has become a completely different game."

Timestamps & Highlights

• [05:55]: Discussing how podcasts and YouTube shows fill the gap for fans unable to watch inconveniently timed matches.
• [09:21]: Why viral clips matter for brands and individual pundits.
• [12:13]: The idea that watching the full match now feels like an interruption to the "banter stream".
• [15:28]: Comparing the cost of TV rights versus the reach and profitability of viral clips and pundit content.

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2. Innovation & Changes in Sports Broadcasting

[18:47–26:34]

• Production and technical changes: Innovations like Ref Cam, stabilized with AI, and player 3D scans for more accurate officiating.
• Social media integration: FIFA's push for "datatainment"—sending content to spectators’ phones in-stadium.
• Rise of the visualized podcast: How the popularity of shows like The Rest Is Football and deals with streamers like Netflix are changing viewing habits, making podcasts a "TV event" with loyal daily engagement.

Quote (Marina Hyde, 22:23):
"I know how I want to watch football... I’ll choose the one podcast that I love, look at the goals, and choose the games I want to watch live. Stop trying to upsell me all the time."

Timestamps & Highlights

• [19:01]: Ref Cam and its impacts—not just on audience immersion but referee empathy.
• [23:03]: What Netflix learns from “The Rest Is Football”—visual podcasts as ‘Homes Under the Hammer’ for a new generation.

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3. BBC and the World Cup—Controversies and Cost Cutting

[16:31–18:47]

• Controversy debunked: BBC criticized for not sending its whole presenting team to the US for coverage. Marina and Richard argue this is cost-efficient and has no effect on quality.
• Object lesson in modern media: It's impossible to "win" in the face of shifting public (and journalistic) expectations.

Quote (Marina Hyde, 17:47):
"It's all made by the enemies of the BBC, who, by the way, if they had sent them, would be like, I can't believe the BBC is spending this much money..."

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4. The Doctor Who Panic—Set the Record Straight

[28:28–43:13]

What happened?

• Recent news: BBC cancels the Christmas special and announces Doctor Who will go "out to tender", sparking fears of cancellation.
• Reality check: Richard provides an insider account: BBC is not cancelling, but opening bids from production companies for a new multi-series contract—a sign of ongoing investment, not abandonment.

Tendering explained:

• The show has always been owned by the BBC, though produced by independent companies like Bad Wolf.
• Tendering is standard for big shows—the BBC wants the best, most forward-looking production base for a show with ancillary value (toys, expanded universe, global distribution).

Why is this happening?

• The Disney coproduction has ended (their interests didn’t align with the BBC’s).
• Ratings have slipped, but Doctor Who remains valuable—especially for the BBC’s vision of programmes drawing "three generations" together.

How will the tender work?

• Production companies (including BBC Studios) will pitch ideas, budgets, locations (expect Cardiff to remain the base), and potential talent.
• Fresh eyes and cheaper production are essential with Disney's exit.

Addressing fandom & press panic:

• Headlines claiming Doctor Who is "cancelled" misconstrue industry process.
• Historical precedent: every BBC tender has led not to cancellation but extended runs.
• The show’s future is secure though it will need to adapt.

Quote (Richard Osman, 29:55):
"It has not been cancelled. It has been the opposite of cancelled. What's the opposite of cancelled? Continued, I guess."

Quote (Guest/Co-host, 32:39):
"If you're in charge of Doctor Who, there's a lot of politics, a lot more fear of moving in. Production companies can now pitch to make Doctor Who. That contract is up for grabs."

Quote (Marina Hyde, 41:18):
"Just in terms of the loose ends and cliffhangers and, you know, things that have been laid down as story points, that's the same for who has to come in... But brilliant writers can find a way through these things."

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5. Fandom, Franchise Stewardship, and the Next Doctor

[43:13–46:09]

• Fandom insights: The Doctor Who audience is portrayed as passionate but quick to catastrophize. The role brings immense scrutiny, similar to football managers or James Bond actors.
• Casting the next Doctor: Lighthearted pitches for Ross Kemp and stand-out comic-actor George Fouracres; call for a star who embodies both dramatic gravitas and comedic timing.

Quote (Guest/Co-host, 46:05): "All the best Doctor Who’s can really do comedy... George Fouracres is a great Shakespearean actor and a great comic. Wouldn't he be amazing?"

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6. Final Thoughts & Recommendations

[46:09–48:45]

• Music pick: Marina is enthusiastic about Olivia Rodrigo’s album You Seem Pretty Sad for a Girl in Love, praising its maturity and star power.
• TV tip: A new series of Four Seasons on Netflix, applauded for its strong writing and cast, including Tina Fey and Colman Domingo.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On media event viewing habits:
  • Marina Hyde [14:16]: "It's not 90 as we knew it. It has become a completely different game."
• On cost-cutting and the BBC’s critics:
  • Richard Osman [17:47]: "It's all made by the enemies of the BBC, who, by the way, if they had sent them would be like, I can't believe the BBC is spending this much money..."
• On Doctor Who’s real status:
  • Richard Osman [29:55]: "It has not been cancelled. It has been the opposite of cancelled. What's the opposite of cancelled? Continued, I guess."
• On the pitch for new production:
  • Guest/Co-host [32:39]: "If you're in charge of Doctor who, there's a lot of politics, a lot more fear of moving in. Production companies can now pitch to make Doctor who. That contract is up for grabs."
• On the nature of Doctor Who’s stewardship:
  • Marina Hyde [38:43]: "It is. That's why I think it's almost like Bond in some ways. It means something much more and it's something connected to something kind of bigger."
• On fandom and cultural “folk memory”:
  • Guest/Co-host [43:37]: "We have a folk memory of something that doesn't exist anymore."
• On the next Doctor suggestion:
  • Guest/Co-host [46:05]: "All the best Doctor Who’s can really do comedy... George Fouracres is a great Shakespearean actor and a great comic. Wouldn't he be amazing?"

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Timeline of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:12–16:31 | World Cup as TV & Media Event | | 16:31–18:47 | BBC World Cup Cost-Cutting & Set Location “Controversy” | | 18:47–26:34 | Innovations in Sports Broadcasting & The Rise of the Visual Podcast | | 28:28–43:13 | The “Doctor Who Cancelled” Panic—Reality, the Tender Process, and Franchise Future | | 43:13–46:09 | Fandom, Franchise, and the Next Doctor Debate | | 46:09–48:45 | Recommendations (Olivia Rodrigo album, Netflix's Four Seasons) and Upcoming Episodes |

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Memorable Moments

• Richard's Live TV Recording Experience:
  Richard excitedly recounting attending Would I Lie to You in person (03:04) and how it illustrates the energy of live British TV production.
• Viral Media Quipped as ‘Weapons Industry’:
  "Everyone wants a piece of that, you know, it's like, it's like the weapons industry, there's a lot of money in it. So even if you can get 2%...you are making out like a bandit." (Guest/Co-host, 14:19)
• Marina’s diagnosis of the “games” as the interruption, not the main-event: (12:35)
• Richard’s witty suggestion for the next Doctor:
  "Ross Kemp sitting around vaping while the TARDIS gets fixed." (44:21)

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Tone & Style

Richard and Marina maintain a breezy, incisive tone, mixing dry humour with deep industry context. Their playful riffing—about pundit kitchens, viral clips, and the mythic weight of Doctor Who stewardship—is interspersed with hard-won knowledge about TV’s shifting structures and economics.

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Summary Takeaway

World Cup: The event is now less about live matches and more about ecosystem—a swirl of viral clips, pundit podcasts, and brand extensions that cater to fragmented, socially driven audiences.

Doctor Who: Ignore the panicked headlines: the BBC is not killing off the show, but rather seeking a fresh production approach, inviting pitches from multiple companies to re-energize its flagship sci-fi, keep it affordable, and secure its future.

In short: The British TV landscape is in flux, but both its signature exports—football and Doctor Who—continue, evolving with their times, and giving fans (and critics) plenty to debate, meme, and (occasionally) catastrophize over.

Transcript

[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osmond]

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[Marina Hyde]

You send total devotion one way and

[Richard Osmond]

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[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Certainly in our day, you would write to a film star or a singer. I wrote to Howard Jones. And maybe three months later a sort of signed photo comes back that's clearly pro forma. You know that, you know, Howard's never really looked at.

[Marina Hyde]

Steve Martin used to have the proformer

[Richard Osmond]

sort of thing which would just leave blanks like insert like small detail to make a joke about how completely it was impersonal. His personal reply to you was. It was just like a standard thing.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Impersonal is interesting. That's why we're talking about this. Because with Octopus Energy, you always can reply to their emails and not only can you reply to them, they will go to the same small group of people who always deal with you. That's like unbelievable.

[Marina Hyde]

It's almost unprecedented that a company you're

[Richard Osmond]

giving your money to will actually respond to.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

You are contemptible in some way.

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[Marina Hyde]

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Hyde, and me, Richard Osmond. Hello, everyone. Hello, Marina.

[Richard Osmond]

Hello. Hi, Richard. How are you?

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

I'm very, very well. I'm looking forward to today. We've got some fun things to talk about. I normally ask what you've done this week, but I know something you did this week. I think you had one of the greatest free experiences you can have in British show business.

[Richard Osmond]

This week I went to Would I Lie to youo? To a recording of Would I Lie to youo On Thursday night. It was totally amazing. If you like the show, this is basically Like a sort of three hour version of the show with no filler, no fil.

[Marina Hyde]

I have even more respect for everyone

[Richard Osmond]

involved in that show than I did before I went.

[Marina Hyde]

It's absolutely terrific.

[Richard Osmond]

I'm not gonna say the lineup because I don't know if I'm allowed to say that.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Oh, you had a good lineup.

[Richard Osmond]

Oh, my God, it was insane. It was ridiculous.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

It's always a good lineup, that show. Because you know, David, Rob and Lee are always there.

[Richard Osmond]

Having said that, mine was particularly good. And you commented on that matter. And I took my daughter, who everyone

[Marina Hyde]

was incredibly nice to.

[Richard Osmond]

It's her favorite thing. She wants to be the booker on. Would I lie to you? When she. She really does listen.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

I didn't put it past her.

[Marina Hyde]

It was absolutely brilliant. It's the most. If you want to apply for tickets to watch that, you can via sro. And you can. You can be in the audience and the audience is pretty big. You don't realize that because there's a little mini audience at the front. You're seeing. You're thinking, oh, gosh. But actually there's a big tiered stand at the back and I cannot recommend it enough. There is no filler.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And as you say, sro, which is standing room only, and there are various other audience places as well. And it's always free to go and see a TV show. Sometimes don't go. I wouldn't go to a sitcom. Cause there's a lot of things. But things like panel shows is such a great free evening. I mean, you know, you've got to get there. But other than that, it was so

[Marina Hyde]

good for the soul. We honestly laughed for three hours, like the entire time. And so I felt like I'd done

[Richard Osmond]

some abdominal exercise without having to do any.

[Marina Hyde]

And it was absolutely brilliant.

[Richard Osmond]

I loved it. I can't thank everyone enough there. It was just terrific. So honestly, yeah, just apply because it's so worth it.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

It really is. What are we talking about this week?

[Richard Osmond]

We are talking about there's a World

[Marina Hyde]

cup on and we are gonna be talking about the kind of. I would. In the old days.

[Richard Osmond]

We just said TV event, but it's now a massive social media event.

[Marina Hyde]

We're gonna be talking about all of those things and how it's changing the way we consume sport and accelerating changes that are already happening.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

It's like the World cup of Crisps, but for football. And we are also talking about Doctor who. Been a big Ferrari this week, about whether it's been cancelled or not. We'll be telling you exactly what's happening with it. And I'll also be telling you who should be the next doctor. I have, I think the perfect next doctor. Shall we talk about the World Cup? The World Cup, I mean, I'm still giddy from Ivory coast won Ecuador, Neil, so forgive me if I'm breathless.

[Marina Hyde]

There are 104 matches, obviously, 48 teams. It feels like more that haunted cue ball who I absolutely hate.

[Richard Osmond]

FIFA president Gianni Infantino.

[Marina Hyde]

Can I just say, right off the bat, bring back set, Blatter. Blatter in.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Who would have thought?

[Marina Hyde]

Infantino has promised 100 at the start of this, he said, think of 104 Super Bowls. I don't know if you watch Qatar,

[Richard Osmond]

Switzerland, like we all had to, because that's the timing of it all.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

I quite like a Qatar, Switzerland. I like countries that would never ordinarily have anything to do with each other. They're two of the great geopolitical mediators, of course, Switzerland and Qatar. But you know what? I think Guy Mowbray mentioned it.

[Marina Hyde]

No, we will talk about it as a TV or a media event because if you're lucky enough to be at the World cup, well done, you. I hope you're having a brilliant time. But obviously for the vast majority of people, this is experienced as a TV and now a sort of social media or other platforms event. The timing of it, particularly for us in the uk, has meant that, you know, it's quite obvious, you try and sit down, you think, I want to

[Richard Osmond]

watch some World cup now.

[Marina Hyde]

And you really can't watch any World

[Richard Osmond]

cup till very, very late.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yeah, some games are like eight or nine, but there's 11pm games, there's 2am games, there's 5am games. Just because of the time difference. It is a very, very difficult World cup for us to watch. What we really want, what we really love, is a World cup where there's a game at 10 in the morning, there's a game at 2 in the afternoon and then there's a game at 7. That's the perfect World cup for us.

[Marina Hyde]

I disagree. 2, 5 and 8.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

2, 5. Oh, I like a 10 in the morning.

[Richard Osmond]

We have jobs, so it's hard, no?

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Oh, absolutely. But the whole point of a World cup is how do you fit your work? Is how do you fit your job? And I want to walk through an office where everyone is pretending to work, but they've all got their computer on and they've got the BBC sports app showing the game.

[Richard Osmond]

Okay. But I mean, for everyone who's not in offices and different types of jobs. No, I think 2, 5 and 8 is the optimal World cup times. Maybe we'll get some more of that next time around.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

My favorite thing about going to America is always you can watch Premier League football at 10 in the morning.

[Marina Hyde]

Things are filling the gap because it's harder to watch in a way. So there are lots and lots of shows, podcasts. One very notable one because it's in our stable. The rest is football are in New York and they've got a big place overlooking Times Square, a big apartment where

[Richard Osmond]

I'm obsessed with things that are on the kitchen island.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yeah. I assume they're living together, the three guys.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, they live upstairs, so I assume they live upstairs.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

They must do. Right.

[Marina Hyde]

Them filming that bit is a spin

[Richard Osmond]

off sitcom for week three.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

That's a lot. Would they call it Friends? I think they would actually, to be fair.

[Richard Osmond]

Yeah.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

I wanted to do things but they wouldn't call it Friends. Like pretending that they weren't friends.

[Richard Osmond]

Yeah.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

But sadly I think they are. It's not like Rory and Alastair.

[Marina Hyde]

No, I watched that sitcom.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

I watched that. Is it. Is it a sitcom that's like. That's like. Is the Bear a sitcom? It'll be quite stressful.

[Richard Osmond]

Yeah, it was a stressful two hander. And anyway, so stick to football.

[Marina Hyde]

They're on YouTube, obviously. There's lots of podcasts of Guardian. Have got a very successful one. World cup doing very well. Piers Morgan is doing something. A World cup uncensored is some sort of spin off of the kind of main rage bait brand which has got

[Richard Osmond]

him, Simon Jordan and John Terry.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Oh my God.

[Marina Hyde]

Even like, you know, James Corden is doing something for Fox, Fox After Hours, which is a kind of spin off thing on it. Everything's a bit like a sort of airport Wetherspoons in that.

[Richard Osmond]

Whenever you're watching it, everyone's got a sort of pint or a glass of wine and it's kind of fine, I think.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

There seemed to be a focaccia on.

[Richard Osmond]

The rest is football.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Oh, the rest is football. Yeah. Yeah.

[Richard Osmond]

Kitchen island the other day.

[Marina Hyde]

But it is harder to watch games. So clips and punditry are really filling a lot of gaps and they're sort of doing that in general anyway, which we'll come to.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

But it feels like the whole. Virtually the whole of media has turned into an episode of Soccer am.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

But slightly less well funded.

[Marina Hyde]

But yeah. What do you do when you don't have the rights because of the timing of it? People want Stuff. And also, I do think that people are changing the way they consume sport.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

The rest of football seems to work by it. It kind of drops at 6am every day. You can switch on Netflix. And of course they don't have the goals, but, you know, like any of those podcasts, they're just chatting about the. And that's interesting because you've seen some of them, you haven't seen some of them. And you can watch the goals on your phone. That's the point. I mean, there are places where you can watch the goals. You don't need them to be sort of talking through it. So it weirdly works. I will talk. We'll talk a little bit more about the whole thing, but I will talk later about what I think this means for Netflix, because I think. I think it has a real significance. I think the rest is football is going to have a real significance for Netflix.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay, let's talk first about all of this kind of. I don't know what you'd call it, like ancillary stuff. Everything that's on YouTube, let's call it soccer. Yeah. Is it just about. Is it all clips? Because there's so much stuff. Now you see a clip, the holy grail of sort of going viral, creating noise. I always think of it as a slight. There is an answer to it, but it's a sort of.

[Richard Osmond]

Yes, but why? Yes, but why?

[Marina Hyde]

You know, okay, is it successful if something goes viral?

[Richard Osmond]

Yes, but why?

[Marina Hyde]

You know, and actually, in the end, when you get down to the ultimate. Yes, but why of this? It. For all of these things, it is about discovery of your show, your podcast or whatever you do. And it's about subscriber acquisition. So it turns a piece of a pretty cheap content into something that drives customer acquisition for whether you're doing some sort of. So it also, you get more sponsorship and better platform distribution.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

It also, by the way, goes even deeper than that, which is for the individual people on those shows, it is good for their personal brand. And there are ways that they can monetize. They can just go, look, I had over, you know, 200 million views on this. Perhaps you want to book me for your conference.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. When Gary Lineker in the last Euro said England played shit, I mean, it's not even. It's something that any of us would have said to each other, but it was because it was different to how he was speaking on the BBC. It was a massive sort of viral moment and it was very good for

[Richard Osmond]

the rest is football.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yeah.

[Richard Osmond]

It drove a lot of Sort of subscribers.

[Marina Hyde]

And it drove a lot of discovery and so on.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

I always find it amazing, after saying that, that he's still at the BBC, I find that. I'm sorry, No, I do find it amazing that Micah and Alan are still at the BBC. Anyway, we will get onto all of that.

[Marina Hyde]

And so we know that the Internet rewards strong opinions, tribalism and conflict.

[Richard Osmond]

Welcome to sport. Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

And all of these clips are like, do you strongly agree?

[Richard Osmond]

Do you strongly disagree? Can you strongly not wait to be

[Marina Hyde]

able to share this in a mocking

[Richard Osmond]

way when it's proved wrong?

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Can you believe it?

[Richard Osmond]

And that's essentially the three things of a football clip.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Essentially, it's.

[Richard Osmond]

Yeah.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Can you believe what Shira said now?

[Richard Osmond]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

And they all slightly do it. And even actually, like, I mean, once you start seeing it, you think, oh,

[Richard Osmond]

I see Gary Lynker saying, I'm gonna. If the USA go all the way, I'm gonna present this in my pants.

[Marina Hyde]

Which we know he said before on Match the day about Lester 10 years

[Richard Osmond]

ago, Gary Neville the other day talking

[Marina Hyde]

about, why, if they've got all this technology, why won't FIFA show us?

[Richard Osmond]

To us, it's like a dictatorship. I thought, I love all this stuff, you know.

[Marina Hyde]

But then that's for ITV and that goes viral and it's a way of. All of this stuff sort of exists as. I mean, even Alexi Lalas, who.

[Richard Osmond]

None of us really want to watch the World cup via Fox at all. But I'm now aware of what they're doing because Alexi Lalas said about James

[Marina Hyde]

Corden, oh, he's a full kit wank. And so now we're like, all right,

[Richard Osmond]

I see Alexei Lalas is doing.

[Marina Hyde]

You know, it is.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And also he's trying to tell Zlatan Ibrahimovic about football.

[Richard Osmond]

Yeah.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Which is interesting.

[Marina Hyde]

I can't.

[Richard Osmond]

I mean, Lalas, I can strongly live without.

[Marina Hyde]

He's hardcore maga. But what I think it's interesting is that all of this, and particularly over here, as I've said because of the timing, is it's all about these changing habits, which is that young people are not abandoning sport, but they just consume it to totally differently. Now full match viewing is becoming a much smaller part of whatever sports consumption is.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

The matches weirdly feel like a slight interruption into the flow of banter.

[Sponsor Voice (Plan B Ad)]

Yeah.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Because you do think, oh, my God, I've been really enjoying everything and now I'm going to watch 90 minutes of this.

[Richard Osmond]

Yeah, well, I know, you know, people can't read a whole book anymore.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

I think the same is happening to football. So do I, I really do. I think we're finding it almost impossible to sit through a whole match and that used to be like the dream. You used to go, oh my God, the match is on. And it' what's happening? What's happening?

[Marina Hyde]

And I've got an hour break and

[Richard Osmond]

I have the next one and then an hour break and the next one

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

and that's well, but now it's like you watch the first 10 minutes just to look at the kits and then you keep an eye on your phone just in case it goes to like 3 all or something. You think, oh, I've got to watch the last 15 minutes of that. But yeah, I think the football match is going the way of the book.

[Sponsor Voice (Plan B Ad)]

Yes.

[Marina Hyde]

Which is.

[Richard Osmond]

We'll have our views on that. I definitely think it's bad with books

[Marina Hyde]

but younger fans, it's sort of highlights, clips, social content, athlete led social content that's around the edge of it and punditry and all of this is set up this time round to cater to that. Partly because of the time zone, partly because of people being forward looking. And if you look at what all the different broadcasters have done, there was an interesting poll done by YouGov saying that there's a whole thing that like, oh, Gen Z, they don't like sport. That's not true. 74% of 18 to 24 year olds follow sport regularly. But only 30% watch primarily watch full games. 34% say they prefer highlights over full games. But I would have thought that has actually even gone up the 34% since they did that. So they might watch 10 minutes of highlights, some TikToks, they might have a 45 or even a 60 minute podcast about it all. But that's all adds up to, I suppose, yes, it all adds up to

[Richard Osmond]

90, but it's not 90 as we knew it.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yes, it has become a completely different game but the amount of money in it is so absolutely beyond enormous. Firstly, I think our attention spans can't take 90 minutes of a football game anymore. But secondly, everyone wants a piece of that. You know, it's like, it's like the weapons industry, there's a lot of money in it. So even if you can get 2% of it, then you are making out like a bandit. And so everyone is really, really vying for the money, for the sponsorship money, for the attention money.

[Marina Hyde]

The rights are almost becoming a burden.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yes.

[Marina Hyde]

So if you look at the US broadcasters who feel like, you know, with CBS we have to have this stuff Going through our pipes. It's insanely expensive. It actually doesn't pay for itself, but it brings people. There's some sort of halo. It costs a fortune to get any sports rights and almost everything that we're talking about here has no rights of any type. They don't have highlights, they don't have anything. And TikTok have got some rights this time and TikTok can stream a couple of full games. I think YouTube have got packages, they're trying to sort of attract other creators, all the broadcasters, as a forward looking thing to say, it doesn't have to be this, it doesn't, you know, if we don't have the rights or whatever, we can still have something around this. As you say, the weapons industry.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

The numbers for the games are still huge on terrestrial TV and you know, there's games going three and a half, four and a half million. The Scotland match, like 1.7 million at two in the morning. Yeah, you don't need to know much about TV to know that's quite a big audience at 2 in the morning. But if you think of the money they spent for it for, you know, 3.5 million viewers, it's amazing, it's great for a channel. But you could be in a loft in New York with a couple of cameras getting clips that go crazily viral with far more than 3 million people. And that's, that's, that's the business we're in now. You know, I would have thought the rights to live broadcasting sport. I think there's an interesting future.

[Marina Hyde]

So do I.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Because the noise around sport is becoming much more lucrative.

[Marina Hyde]

The attention is becoming bigger than the sport itself. I couldn't agree more. In that case, can I just get onto some of the sort of standard so called controversies we've been seeing? Like the BBC aren't going, they're doing it in Salford. I couldn't care less.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

By the way, do you know what?

[Marina Hyde]

It's not even a football country. So I'm sorry, I have to say that when I see like everyone's like, no, the U.S. so when you see I. By the way, this is no Shade on ITV set, which is obviously amazing and they've got the Brooklyn Bridge in Manhattan in the background. But I don't think of. There's something about football countries. So when Spain and Morocco have it,

[Richard Osmond]

if they have, you know, Sagrada Familia in the background of Barcelona and you're

[Marina Hyde]

looking at that, it's like, oh, that's football. Because Spain is a football country.

[Richard Osmond]

But when I see the Manhattan skyline,

[Marina Hyde]

whilst amazing, I don't immediately think of football. So I literally couldn't care whether they're there or not. I honestly couldn't.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

I think it's a real object lesson in. The BBC are currently going through lots and lots and lots of cuts. I think they announced this week they might be losing 10% of the news division, for example, but they're trying to find lots of places to make cuts and this is a perfect one. You know what, it's great to have everyone out there because you get the vibe of the World cup and it feels very special. They don't need to be there. If you see they've got three great presenters, Kelly Cates, Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. They've got a great set, a great studio, they're following the match, they got reporters out there, they're watching stuff on their phones just like we are. They are immersed in this tournament and it has saved millions to not send everyone over there.

[Marina Hyde]

And it's all made by the enemies of the BBC, who, by the way, if they had sent them would be like, I can't believe the BBC is spending this much money on a phone.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

There was an amazing Telegraph headline about, it's the work from Home World cup for the BBC.

[Marina Hyde]

It's so pathetic. You can't win with these people. You can't win at all. And to sort of compare it with Glastonbury or anything like that. Yeah, that's a weekend. It's so stupid that I'm embarrassed for anyone making that argument.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yes, agreed.

[Marina Hyde]

So I don't care about things like that.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And I think they are going. If England or Scotland get towards the end of the tournament, of course people will go out there, but it works so perfectly well and there's an immediate cost saving and it's one of those things you absolutely get into the rhythm of going, well, of course we have to send them out because, you know, like, in news, like, anyway, you do need to be on the spot and on the scene, but, you know, so long as the commentators are in the stage, you know, obviously you just stick the presenters anywhere. Yeah, it's great. You know, it's. It's like. And it's like money completely saved and there is zero, literally zero difference to the coverage.

[Marina Hyde]

I couldn't agree more. Can we talk a little bit about how particularly sporting events really usher in innovations in the way things are filmed and what have you.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Are we going to talk about Ref Cam?

[Richard Osmond]

You know, I'm getting onto Ref Cam. That's where I'm going. Okay. Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

By the way, you take everything from FIFA. That's just to explain to people where you get this stuff. It's not like the feed comes from them. The innovations are up to them and they've got various different ones. This time they 3D scanned all the players so that they could help with decisions.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And also it means they can clone them in future.

[Richard Osmond]

Yes. And, yeah, so we can have an

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

intergalactic football league where they don't have to pay any players without some humans

[Richard Osmond]

disagreeing with any of the things they do.

[Marina Hyde]

But, yeah, referee, captain. I mean, they have this in rugby. They've managed to sort of put some AI stabilizer on it so it doesn't

[Richard Osmond]

look like horror movie fanfictions.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

It's not like backrooms.

[Richard Osmond]

But. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Marina Hyde]

Mexico, South Africa game.

[Richard Osmond]

They showed the Raul Jimenez goal on

[Marina Hyde]

it and it was some referee Wilson

[Richard Osmond]

Sambo just sort of chasing.

[Marina Hyde]

I was thinking, God, it's quite hard work, isn't it?

[Richard Osmond]

I mean, to keep up with these guys who, you know, hearing are pretty fit.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yes. A, makes you. Makes you feel much more sympathy and empathy for referees. But B, it's just brilliant. Yeah, it just looks amazing.

[Marina Hyde]

More immersive.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yeah, more like a computer game, but real.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. Pov, you know, it's. Everything is. Yeah, the audio is very. Is different, which is always a bit of a liability.

[Richard Osmond]

So you have to be quite careful with the audio because. Do we actually want to hear what they're saying?

[Marina Hyde]

But you're supposed to get. Because of all various of these innovations, you're supposed to get sort of faster

[Richard Osmond]

and fairer offside decisions. I mean, I have some sympathy with Gary Neville.

[Marina Hyde]

If you do it, can you please, please tell us.

[Richard Osmond]

Can you show us then?

[Marina Hyde]

And if you're keeping the information, I

[Richard Osmond]

just don't trust you.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

I think it's a dictatorship. I think FIFA is a dictatorship. I think the World cup is an abomination.

[Marina Hyde]

There we go.

[Richard Osmond]

Yeah, something like that.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And let me tell you something about Gary Lineker.

[Marina Hyde]

I mean, lots of people are loving Christina Uncle. She's fantastic.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

So she's the American referee who they bring in if there's ever any controversial decisions, which there always are. And she's so. No, nonsense. She was on the last World cup as well. She was great on that.

[Richard Osmond]

Very, very good.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

But, you know, that sort of thing is. That's a joy to watch.

[Marina Hyde]

The cameras are very. They've got lots more of the sort of spider cams. You can't have drone cameras so much in Football, which they did. Which were really good in the Winter Olympics. I thought the drone cameras were amazing, but you can't have that because they'll probably get taken out by a. Oh, yeah.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

By the ball.

[Richard Osmond]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

Or by one of the. Sorry again, America. We have no need to have military helicopters seeing a fly past above again game. Just. Absolutely. We don't do that.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Honestly, I'd rather that's what American military helicopters were doing at the moment.

[Richard Osmond]

You're right. You're right.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Take some out of circulation.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, you know what?

[Richard Osmond]

I would.

[Marina Hyde]

I would love it if you got.

[Richard Osmond]

Anyway, I'll be overtaken. This podcast will be overtaken by a deal.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

But that's why John Healey, the Defense Secretary, resigned.

[Richard Osmond]

Yeah.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

He's saying I don't have enough money to protect our country. And also do flypasts.

[Richard Osmond]

Do fly past over every Premier League game.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yeah. I can't do it all.

[Marina Hyde]

It's very, very militarized. If you ever go to NFL games in the US there's so much military hardware in the skies as a display before. I don't feel we need to see this during a World Cup.

[Richard Osmond]

Certainly not where someone's just been awarded a Peace Prize, but anyhow.

[Marina Hyde]

But FIFA have been talking about datatainment. They're sending people in the stadium. The wifi's apparently way better, and so they're sending you stuff on your phone.

[Richard Osmond]

Well, I mean, it could hardly have

[Marina Hyde]

been worse where you actually couldn't send

[Richard Osmond]

your copy when you were filing from the stadium sometimes.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Oh, really?

[Marina Hyde]

My God.

[Richard Osmond]

Sometimes there would be real disasters. But anyway.

[Marina Hyde]

But yeah, so they're sending stuff to

[Richard Osmond]

people's phones in the stadium, and they're

[Marina Hyde]

trying to just make it all.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

I hate it so much. Just. You know what? Just. I know how I want to watch football. I know what I want to look up. I'll choose the one podcast that I love. I'll look at the goals, and I'll choose the games I want to watch live. That's all I want to do. Stop trying to upsell me all the time.

[Richard Osmond]

Yes, I agree.

[Marina Hyde]

And they're always trying to make it

[Richard Osmond]

seem like they're innovating.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Stop putting a QR code on the screen saying, if you want more information, I have all the information I need. I have all the information I need. Exactly. I have all the information in the world. I do not need your QR code.

[Marina Hyde]

But there is. There's a sort of. You know, Americans like a distinct aesthetic to their sports and how they like it to look. And obviously, FIFA have leaned towards that to some degree.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Can I talk a little bit about the rest is football and what it means for Netflix? So it was an interesting deal that the guys struck, a very lucrative one as well. And it is essentially sort of turning a podcast into a television program, which we've talked about a lot before. That kind of mission creeper of when you start videoing podcasts and then Suddenly everyone under 35 starts watching them, and then they start watching them on their tv and then the streamer goes, oh, actually, perhaps we could. That feels like a bit of, you know, visual content. We do visual content. Perhaps you can come on this. And when they do that, of course, they want slightly higher production values, and then suddenly it's turned into, as you say, a slightly lower budget. Football focus. I mean, that's what it becomes. But if you look at the rest is football. Netflix, for a long time have been desperately trying to get into the order scheduled television. So they do pop Culture Jeopardy with Colin Jost and things like that. They want people to come back every day to watch the same thing in the same way that terrestrial TV has always been.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, they want you to stay longer on the service because at the moment, I think there's some dispute whether it's

[Richard Osmond]

an hour, an hour and a half,

[Marina Hyde]

or two hours that people spend on Netflix, but I think it's closer to an hour. And that's it. They want you to spend much longer

[Richard Osmond]

than that on the service.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And the best way of doing that is have a show that's on every day for you that's like an hour and a bit long. And the rest is football. Ever since it started, it's been in the top 10 an awful lot since it launched. And often when you launch a show, it is in the top 10 because of the way the algorithm works. But if they can, as the tournament progresses, stay in that top 10, three, four, five, six weeks. And also they can show to Netflix viewers that you can turn on your TV and there's something. A new episode of the thing you liked yesterday, and it's live and you can come and watch it. That's. It's just a way of changing that consumer behavior. And it's a really good. It's a really good sort of Trojan horse to get people to understand that.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, sport particularly.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

And we know that they don't. You know, they don't. They have had some sporting rights, but they. They say they haven't. And they say that. They say everything.

[Richard Osmond]

Never leave Netflix, what they say.

[Marina Hyde]

But they want to have sports adjacent stuff.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

So particularly when you've got something like this happening, the World cup, which is obviously a kind of daily iterative, incredibly compelling attention.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

They're desperate to get into the world of Visualize Podcasts. Visualize Podcasts. The absolute holy grail, which is there are a lot of them. They have a loyal audience who want to see the next one. They create a big library as well. But they're very, very, very cheap.

[Marina Hyde]

And you leave them on almost as

[Richard Osmond]

though you used to leave the TV or the radio on in the background.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And as you say, the World cup is the perfect opportunity to say this is a destination for that, if you would like that. Because none of the visualized podcasts are really, really taken off, and none of their scheduled program has really taken off. It makes a lot of noise, but people are not being driven to it day after day after day in the way that, you know, BBC Daytime has with Homes under the Hammer.

[Richard Osmond]

Yeah.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Netflix essentially need their homes.

[Richard Osmond]

They're held every day to go there.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And at the moment, the rest is football. Is Netflix's Homes under the Hammer. I mean, I should have said Bargain Hunt, really, because that's more appropriate. But I do think it's gonna. It's gonna be a huge deal for. For Netflix. I think seeing that those people coming back again and again and again and again for the same thing, you know, if you make a two hour film, you'll get a certain amount of viewers. If you make an hour every day for six weeks and people are still coming back and coming back and coming back, that is an entirely different business plan. In fact, it's the business plan, what's

[Marina Hyde]

the milk in the supermarket? You go, you're going back in every day for it. It's important. And you just keep.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And while you're there, you go, do you know what? I actually will get some Ferrero Roche.

[Richard Osmond]

Yes.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

You know, we talked about the games themselves being less important. I think that BBC and ITV have both done an amazing in this World Cup. The presenting teams on both channels are great. ITV's Pundit lineup is really, really good. It's really, really good. They did two games in a row the other day. They swapped all three pundits and every single one. I was like, well, this is great.

[Richard Osmond]

No filler.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yeah. Emma Hayes, I love. She's great. I think both the channels are doing a great job. But this world around it, this noise around it, the podcastification of the World Cup, I think is fascinating. And if you don't like it, it's not Going anywhere. No, it really isn't.

[Marina Hyde]

Now, shall we take a hydration break?

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Oh, that's very clever. And after that, we're gonna talk about is Doctor who cancelled.

[Marina Hyde]

This episode is brought to you by Lloyd. Now, I love it when characters are

[Richard Osmond]

part of a club.

[Marina Hyde]

You wouldn't know anything about that, would you, Richard?

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

The Thursday Murder Club, in some ways reminds me of the A team.

[Marina Hyde]

I would now like to map each

[Richard Osmond]

of those characters onto the A team and feel I probably could. I mean, Elizabeth is Hannibal and it's not even close.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

That's exactly right. And Ron is howling Mad Murdoch.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, there are def perks to being in a club. Just ask the members of Club Lloyds, because with Club Lloyd, you can bank on Lloyd to give you more. Wherever you are, if you join Club

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Lloyds, there's all sorts of benefits you can choose between. There's for example, six free cinema tickets.

[Marina Hyde]

They've got an annual coffee club and

[Richard Osmond]

Gourmet Society membership, which would be mine.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And also something that the Thursday Merclub would enjoy very, very much indeed. To top it all off, you have fee free spending abroad, which means wherever you are, you won't be charged by Lloyds to use the your debit card when you're traveling. Now, joining this club costs five pound per month, but that is refunded in any month that you pay 2,000 pound into your account.

[Marina Hyde]

Now that is a club that's worth being part of. Check out Club Lloyds today. You'll need to be a UK resident and aged 18 or over to apply.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Welcome back, everyone. We're about to talk about Dr. Huber. You're doing another live show without me?

[Marina Hyde]

I'm doing a live show at the

[Richard Osmond]

Rest Is Fest at the South bank on 6th September, which is a crossover

[Marina Hyde]

event with Tom Holland from the Rest Is History.

[Richard Osmond]

Okay. And it's called the Real Housewives of Regency England.

[Marina Hyde]

I want to explain that we're essentially spending the entire profit margin of the

[Richard Osmond]

weekend's festival on this one show. It's got very high production values. There's a number of things happening around

[Marina Hyde]

it and I think it will be

[Richard Osmond]

a huge amount of fun. It will combine if you love Regency England or you love the Real Housewives. I don't know which camp I'm in.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

It's a bit of both.

[Marina Hyde]

There's something for everyone.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Beautiful. And we can get tickets.

[Marina Hyde]

You can get tickets for [e-mail] and

[Richard Osmond]

it's on Sunday 6th September.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Let's talk about Doctor who now? Doctor who. There's been a Ferrari or a Ferrar. What's happened, Richard, in the news this week because the BBC have announced that they are cancelling the upcoming Christmas special and they are putting Doctor who out to tender. And the fan base, and indeed the newspapers seem to have taken the expression out to tender to mean out to pasture. So there's been lots of headlines saying Doctor who has been cancelled. I won't string this out too much. It has not been cancelled. It has been the opposite of cancelled. What's the opposite of cancelled? Continued, I guess. So what has happened is this. And I'll explain what being put out to tender means.

[Marina Hyde]

Can I just say where we finished?

[Richard Osmond]

Okay, yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

The last the audiences saw was last May 2025, which ended on a cliffhanger where Shooty Gatwa, the current Doctor, regenerated into Rose Tyler, who if you know the show, is Billy Piper and was one of the Doctor's companions right back when Russell T. Davis, the showrunner, first brought this show back in 2005 and he was the showrunner from 2005 to 2010. Then other people took it over and he returned in 2023. When he returned, there was a co production deal with Disney, which I will get into all of this anyway.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And that was the last episode essentially of that Disney deal. So Disney pulled out after that, their money came out as well, which is sort of bad. But you know, these things almost always happen. Disney needed it to be a certain thing. BBC needed to be a certain thing and it they didn't tick all the boxes for everyone. So Disney pull out and the BBC go, listen, we're carrying on, we're going to do this Christmas special. So this news this week that says, oh, we're not doing the Christmas special and we're putting it out to Tender. I think as understandably makes everyone think, oh my God, is that the end for Doctor who? True story. I've tried to speak to people from every side of this story and what happened was so in 2025, Disney pull out, the BBC are still absolutely saying, no way. We are definitely going to carry on with Doctor who. What we will do is we're going to put this out to Tender again. I'll explain what that means in 2028-2029. That was the original idea. At which point everyone goes, oh, we should do a Christmas special to, you know, sort of bridge that gap because that's a long time.

[Marina Hyde]

It's currently made by, or it was made by Bad Wolf.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Who are an independent production company, but BBC owned the rights. Bad Wolf made the show. So they say, look, we're going to put this out to tender. And because the BBC were dealing with Trump and Charlotte Moore, who's the chief content officer, was leaving and Kate Fiddit was coming in. So there was a lot of churn at that point. And as soon as Kate Fitts property gets her feet under the table, she said, oh, we're going to put it out to tender now. Because the whole point of putting out to tender is this is a big deal for us. This show is a big deal for us. It's the opposite saying we're going to rest it. It's the opposite of saying we're putting it out to pasture. It is saying this show is a big deal for us. We want to have this, give it multi series. We to find production companies to pitch into us to say they want to make Doctor who. So as you say, Bad Wolf make it. At the moment, I don't think that they will pitch to do the new one because Beowulf are very successful at the moment and, you know, Doctor who is. It's a. It's quite a burden to carry. It's almost like being, you know, the owner of a football team. If you're in charge of Doctor who.

[Richard Osmond]

Yes.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

There's a lot of politics, a lot

[Marina Hyde]

more fear of moving in.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yeah.

[Richard Osmond]

We'll get onto the fandom shortly.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Production companies can now pitch to make Doctor who. That contract is up for grabs. The BBC do this all the time with all sorts of shows, shows that they own the IP for. So something like Fake or Fortune that went out to tender, Songs of Praise went out to Tender, Mastermind, stuff like that. These shows where they make it and it is beholden on them to say, what's the best way we can make this? Can we keep it in house? Or has a production company got a great idea about how to make this?

[Marina Hyde]

So BBC Studios could pitch within this process.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

BBC Studios could absolutely pitch. BBC Studios almost always win these tenders.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

You know, and sometimes it's because they, you know, like something like Fake or Fortune, BBC Studios make it anyway and so they have those talent relations. They have the cost savings of knowing how to make it. So, you know, BBC Studios usually are at an advantage. In this case, of course, it's been made by Bad Wolf for a long time, so they don't have any kind of incumbency advantage. However one guesses they might win it, I would have thought. But I think there's various ways that you can win this pitch. If you, for example, he wouldn't do it, I'm sure. But if you were independent production company and Jack Thorne said, I want to make Doctor who and I'll make it with you, then you may well make that pitch. If you are an independent production company and you see the importance of all the incredible ancillary rights to Doctor who and the kind of extended universe, and you have an incredible pitch that includes lots of digital media and has like a really, really forward thinking way of making Doctor who, you might win the pitch as well. You know, if you've got an incredible piece of talent who has agreed to come on board as Doctor who and he's only going to work with you, you might win that pitch. But the process now is production companies will go into their bunkers, they will think, how will remake Doctor who? How do we make it for that budget? Do we keep it in Cardiff? I think it'd be impossible to win this picture not keeping a Cardiff, by the way, because it's such a big deal to the area and to the production hub there. So I think it will stay exactly where it is. But they'll be going away, all their development people will be around knocking up a huge documentary. It's a funny one. If it's BBC ip. If you're Bad Wolf and you're making Doctor who, it's not the biggest money spinner you're going to make because it doesn't belong to you. But production companies these days are far more sort of companies for hire since the world of streaming, where streaming always keeps the IP for production companies to stay afloat. Now they have to take some of these gigs where you're not making as much money as if you'd invented Doctor who, sort of. So 50 companies will pitch, the BBC will cut that down to four. They will be invited in for extra pitches to absolutely kind of go through every single detail of what it is that they want to do, how they're going to fund it, who the talent is behind the camera, in front of the camera, all of those things. And the BBC would eventually choose a winner in that process. But that hopefully is the thing that reassures Doctor who viewers that this, this is not being put out to pasture. It's the exact opposite of that, which is the BBC see a long future for it. They have to find a way of future proofing it, of making it in a way that kind of, that works for them, works at a, at a price that works for them, that, you know, hopefully retains the integrity of that production base in Cardiff. But it's an. It's an enormously positive move. And the idea with the. Because it's been slightly clouded by the fact that that Christmas special was cancelled. But as I say, they were. The idea was they were going to put out tender in 2028 as soon as they said we're putting it out for Tender. Now you can't make the Christmas special because the canon of the show would be affected so much by what they were about to do with the whole, you know, Chuchi Katwater, Billy Piper thing. It's just you. You can't lay that on the next. You know, there are companies now who are working on where they take the Doctor who universe. And if you're about to drop an enormous Christmas shaped bomb in the middle of that, it makes. It makes that process impossible for everybody. So that. That's why it does.

[Marina Hyde]

It does. I mean, we'll get onto the fandom in a minute, which, like all fandoms, I don't want to completely homogenize it because it's very factional. We have to say why this has happened to some degree. We have to be honest. You know, the ratings were not there. That's why Disney got out of it, because it didn't work for them.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And not only that, the BBC cannot say that the fact that the BBC are doing it at all tells you that the ratings are there for the BBC.

[Marina Hyde]

I agree.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

There's nothing there.

[Marina Hyde]

What is it for the BBC? Is it like when Kate Phillips came on the show, she's the chief content officer of the BBC. She talked about what she dreams of for shows that. Those three GS, it's basically like whole, all different generations sitting down and watching something together and historic. When I say historically, I'm talking about from the 2005 return that Russell T. Davis triumphantly created. It was that show. But that was a different, you know, that's now 21 years ago. And that's a different, totally different linear era. And the difficulty with, you know, it's sitting on a streaming service, Disney, but it's also. And obviously on iplayer as well. But it's also. Is it still this thing that people might sit down at, you know, 5:50 or 6:30 or whatever it is on Saturday evening to watch. I will, I will say that Chuti Gatwa, I don't feel that he understood that the sense of what that role is. And it's a different role to lots of things, probably won't be. The last time I mentioned Bond. But it's a bit like being something like James Bond.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

It's a big responsibility.

[Marina Hyde]

It's a responsibility. It's an ambassadorial role to some degree. And I don't feel he. First of all, he didn't ever in interviews come across as particularly enjoying it. Maybe that's just the personality type, I don't know. But you are something more than. I'm just playing a guy on tv. And you know, David Tennant, obviously he was a huge fan. Capaldi, Matt Smith, who wasn't, but was extraordinary as a replacement. I just think Matt Smith's era on the show is brilliant. And Peter Capaldi, who was another huge Doctor who fan. All of those people understood that. They were essentially.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And it's funny, isn't it a very unusual role.

[Marina Hyde]

It is. That's why I think it's almost like Bond in some ways. It means something much more and it's something connected to something kind of bigger. So also, you know, you have this fandom. The fandom is, as I said, I want to homogenize it. You have some sort of Die Hard Whovians. You have some real people who've been with it for decades. And then, you know, you'll have. You also have the kind of His

[Richard Osmond]

Majesty's Press who think that you. It's all a big woke culture war.

[Marina Hyde]

Russell Davis would probably say that elements. He had rather lost elements of the fandom. And I think that for me, just reading the statement, he said, for the record, there's no script, I never wrote it and no actor was ever approached to play the next Doctor. You may disagree. Fine. Sit in that chair and wait to be proved right.

[Richard Osmond]

You'll be waiting a long time.

[Marina Hyde]

There's a little niggle in there for me as a statement.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

He's a good writer.

[Marina Hyde]

I mean, I literally. I mean I love him. I literally love him. And the only reason we're having any of this conversation at all is because this show fell away in 1989 and there were all sorts of people saying, who's going to rescue us? You know, maybe Amblin. There was a whole movement at the time. Maybe Steven Spielberg's company is going to come and. Yeah, well, it didn't happen, guys, okay? And this show that we are even talking about now, Russell T. Davis was working at CBBC, I think in 1989 and he. In 2005, he bought it back in this absolutely triumphant way. And that's really the reason why it's sort of in the mix in this conversation. It's a big Beast. The culture around the show, I say

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

it is very like being the England manager or being the chairman of a football club. I mean, it will end in failure. Whoever you are, at some point, your exit will always be ignominious. Always.

[Marina Hyde]

In that last episode, there's so many different things happening.

[Richard Osmond]

There's like, the reality war is happening without getting too into the absolute lore of it, if you don't watch it,

[Marina Hyde]

but the reality war is happening.

[Richard Osmond]

An extraordinary thing has just happened in terms of a regeneration.

[Marina Hyde]

To me, it is slightly like, oh, my God, how do I come back

[Richard Osmond]

after no Time to die if I'm

[Marina Hyde]

doing the next Bond film? But equally, wow, here's something that we're now talking about in the similar terms to James Bond. I think the fandom slightly have to remember that whilst it had a very engaged fandom and people had a big heritage memory of it and hiding behind the sofas and all those sort of things, it wasn't this kind of global thing that people. And it's become. Its status has increased enormously since 2005 as a whole idea. And so I think the fact that you're even having these conversations of, like, you know, who's so and so gonna do it? How will they deal with all these things?

[Richard Osmond]

I agree that there's quite a lot

[Marina Hyde]

to take on, just in terms of the loose ends and cliffhangers and, you know, things that have been laid down as story points. That's the same for who has to come in and Steven Knight has to

[Richard Osmond]

come in and write Bond after no Time to Die and what they did at the end of that, which. Which was eccentric, but, you know, you've

[Marina Hyde]

got to find a way through. And we know that people, brilliant writers, can find a way through these things.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And that's the thing. It's interesting going out to Tinder, because what it actually means is you do spread the net out quite wide. There isn't sort of some sort of, you know, succession strategy. All these different companies will be talking to different writers, and somewhere there will be someone, you know in the same way that, you know, the 1980s doctor who was so special for Russell. There will be people for whom the Russell T. Davis show was incredibly special when they were growing up. Like some young writer who can take this on and do something extraordinary with it. It has to be an awful lot cheaper than the last generation of it because the Disney money is out. So you have to find a way of making it cheaper. But you can do that with Doctor who. It's always been about Emotion and storyline rather than cgi. The BBC tender quite a lot of things. And I'll say this, there is not a single show that they have tendered which hasn't gone on to have multiple series afterwards. They've never done a tender and gone, actually, we're going to get rid of this, or done a tender and they do one more series and it disappears. Every tender the BBC has ever done is for a. That they are absolutely committed to and that they want to go forward with.

[Marina Hyde]

So it's not the long grass. It is not the long grass. Even though people think it is at the moment, it's not.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

It's really, really not. It may well be just to deal with the financial side of it that some of these companies bring in production partners and bring in foreign money that the BBC doesn't have. So, you know, there's lots of ways of cutting your cloth, but genuinely, it's a huge money spinner for the BBC. Still, Doctor who, the kind of universe around doesn't punch its weight in terms of ratings, you know, on the overnights, but that's becoming less and less and less important.

[Marina Hyde]

So I have to say something. People were like, there was a lot of noise about the Christmas special, the last Christmas special, TV ratings. But something that I'm sure we'll talk about more when we come to Christmas. Is Christmas TV what it used to be? I mean, across the board, last year they had some extraordinary things the year before with Gavin and Stacey and things like that. But actually, Christmas TV is not Christmas tv.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

We have a folk memory of something that doesn't exist anymore. I've got a couple of ways of making it cheaper, by the way, because, as I say, lots of people will be pitching because this tender process has only just started. So there'll be lots of production kind of crews sitting around this week talking about how they land Doctor who just ways of making it cheaper. This is my best way. Ross Kemp as Doctor who and the whole series, him sitting around vaping while the TARDIS gets.

[Richard Osmond]

I love it.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

It's like, because he's just thinking about what happened, you know, in previous iterations and stuff, but he's just every now and again just going, is it.

[Marina Hyde]

Does it take you inside the mind of camp?

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yeah, a little. Well, it takes you inside the mind of Doctor who. He's not playing Ross Kemp.

[Richard Osmond]

Isn't he always?

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Well, maybe, but isn't Doctor who? I think, anyway, that's true.

[Richard Osmond]

Okay, so Ross Kemp sitting around vaping while the TARDIS gets fixed.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yes. Junior Doctor which is just a whole series where he's on strike and catching up on his sleep. That feels doable. So Torchwood, which was. Torchwood, which is, as it we know, is an anagram of Doctor who. So I've got two other anagrams. Hootcrowd, which is Doctor who looks after an owl sanctuary or owl Hotcord, which is the Doctor injuring himself on hotel room kettles.

[Richard Osmond]

Okay. I love all of those.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Not bad, is it?

[Richard Osmond]

Absolutely amazing.

[Marina Hyde]

Is that.

[Richard Osmond]

So Ross Kemp is your pick for the next Doctor.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

I think the TARDIS being fit, fixed and the Doctor having to just sort of go to the betting shop and just sort of wait around, pop into Aldi every now and again. It's going to be interesting. Just. Just the. The kind of down time of Doctor who. What does he get up to?

[Richard Osmond]

I'd watch it.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

If he can't travel through the universe

[Richard Osmond]

with the right writer, I would watch it.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Yeah, exactly. But it. But genuinely. And I've tried to talk to as many people as I can. Everyone seems very. I absolutely see where. Where the fandom is coming from.

[Marina Hyde]

The fandom catastrophizing to some degree.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And by. By the way, you would. Because you.

[Marina Hyde]

To varying degrees, I think it's fair to say.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

I don't care about it so much. It's interesting with Ingrid having been in Doctor who, I quite often meet Doctor who fans and to a person, I found them to be just kind and thoughtful and funny and the process is going to be fascinating. Something really interesting will come. Do you want to know who the best who the new Doctor who should be? Who we've enjoyed very much Saturday Night Live, the UK Saturday Night Live. And there's an absolute standout staff from that George Foray, because. Yeah, wouldn't he be amazing? All the best Doctor who's can really do comedy. You're talking about Matt Smith, Tennant Capaldi. They can really do comedy. But you could stick him on a Shakespeare and they can do that as well. And George Fouracres is a great Shakespearean actor and a great comic. Wouldn't he be amazing?

[Richard Osmond]

I like that. Yeah.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Any recommendations, Marina?

[Marina Hyde]

I have loved the new Olivia Rodrigo

[Richard Osmond]

album, which is called you Seem Pretty sad for a Girl in Love.

[Marina Hyde]

And it's a whole arc from sort of falling.

[Richard Osmond]

I like this sort of genre for an album.

[Marina Hyde]

She became famous, you know, when she was 17 and I do think that's a. That's really difficult whether you can grow as an artist and you can sort of put. She's absolutely a big a Huge deal. But she's sort of floating above that. And I think she's absolutely brilliant. Robert Smith does a duet on this and she obviously bought him on stage at Glastonbury for her set. And that was. And I mean, some people just sort of didn't get that. But I think it's brilliant and you realize much it's more developed that sort of influence. Influence on her in this. And it's. They're just great songs. And I think it's really wonderful that she's been able to sort of kick on. Definitely, definitely, definitely. To a much higher level. Because sometimes at that age it must be quite hard to become a sort of woman artist when you got famous at 17.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

And we live in a golden age of pop music. I think we really do. It's hard because we don't believe we do because we don't all coalesce around the same songs in the same way that we used to because we're not just sort of a one radio station culture. But the songs are all out there. It's just. It's harder to find them sometimes when you're slightly older, like I am. I'll recommend there's a new series of four seasons on Netflix. The Tina Fey, Colman, Domingo and the rest of them. And it's just. It's very beautifully written, beautifully observed. And if you like the first series, you love the second series. If you've not seen the first series of four seasons, I would strongly recommend that as well. So there's two recommendations really, but the same show.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay, well, we will be back on Thursday with a Q and A with Tom hanks.

[Richard Osmond]

Toy Story 5 is out on Friday

[Marina Hyde]

and Woody is here with us. But we're talking about lots of. It's really cool. We're talking about quite a lot of

[Richard Osmond]

other things as well. And it's wonderful.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

Full disclosure, we've already done the interview and he's a dude, right?

[Richard Osmond]

Oh, my God, please, he's a dude.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

But we've asked your questions as well. So, yeah, do to you want on Thursday for Tom Hanks, on Wednesday for

[Marina Hyde]

our members, the bonus episode which is I'm talking to James Kanagasorum and it's

[Richard Osmond]

all about capturing the Zeitgeist. His company does a lot of work on the Zeitgeist and where the Zeitgeist is going next. It's really, really interesting. It's a deep dive.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

That series between the two of you has been absolutely fascinating. If people have not listening to it is genuinely brilliant.

[Richard Osmond]

He's so interesting.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

You're great. But I knew that already.

[Richard Osmond]

He's very.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

I didn't know he was great.

[Richard Osmond]

He's very interesting.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay, so if you want to join for ad, free listening and bonus episodes, it's. The rest is entertainment dot com. Otherwise, we'll see you on Thursday.

[Guest/Co-host (possibly a media or sports commentator)]

See you on Thursday.