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The Rest is Entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now, the moment someone becomes properly famous, they stop traveling as a person and they start traveling as a situation. And yes, I am talking about the world of entourages.
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It's amazing anytime you do a TV show when someone properly famous comes on, it's sort of you can just have a spread bet as to how many people they're going to bring with them.
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Most people don't actually need a bodyguard and a fixer and a straw lady, but not having to start from scratch every single time you get in contact with someone is actually undeniably appealing.
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So Octopus Energy, you know, anytime you ever ring any company, you start from scratch right from the beginning. Again, with Octopus Energy, they recognize your number and that goes through to a very, very small team of around 10 people who are there to deal with you. So you'll almost certainly be dealing with someone who you have dealt with before. That's the Octopus Energy entourage that they have built around you.
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A great satisfaction not having to tell your story for new every single time, which I think most major celebrities also feel. Hello and welcome to this special bonus series of the Rest Is Entertainment with
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me, Marina Hyde and James Kanagasuri.
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Well, this is a turnout for the Burks. I am so happy to be joined by you today, James. For any of our listeners and audience who don't know, James is an absolutely brilliant pollster, an all around great guy. He is the chief polling officer of Focal Data. He's worked on how many election campaigns here and around the world have you worked on? A lot.
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Double digits.
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Double digits. Unbelievable. He coined the term the Red wall, which turned out to be quite a consequential piece of our political language. Three weeks before Keir Starmer was elected, he talked about his Sandcastle coalition. This was the idea that despite the likelihood that Keir Starmel would win a huge landslide, it was like a sandcastle. His victory built on nothing stable and liable to be washed away extremely fast. So guess everybody makes mistakes. You know, it's solid. Solid as a medieval fort, his castle. But enough of politics, because as that brilliant pollster, James is plugged into all the currents and trends in public opinion that shape our world. And in this series we are going to look at some aspects of entertainment and culture with that brilliant analytical eye. James, hello.
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Hello, Marina.
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I'm looking forward to this one in an advised way. We're talking about Tradwise, the whole culture content. Now I will have to begin because what are trad wives? Trad wives. It became a thing as a sort of Internet trend. So we can immediately be suspicious of it. But it's a sort of submission to your husband in traditional gender roles. It promotes financial dependence on men. He's the breadwinner, he makes all the key financial decisions. It's different from stay at home mothers. We should say that because there's lots of stay at home mothers who wouldn't describe themselves as tradwise. What does it involve if. If you're online and you're one, it involves a lot of bread making homeschool lesson plans. The Christian elements are often very strong in terms of content, which is watched, by the way, by a lot of people who are not tradwives. So I don't know how we hate. Watching is always an interesting thing, but we can talk about that. Baking bread, like I said, homeschooling, cleaning by candlelight, really elaborate school lunches that you could never flower, ranging. It's all sort of aesthetically appealing as a kind of prairie wife homesteading thing to it all. Some of the big ones in terms of content are there's Nara Smith and she's got modeling and sponsorship and she's got a massive social audience. There's Hannah Nealman. She's like a business and media brand called Ballerina Farm. She used to be a Juilliard ballerina, but sadly had to give that up after her husband insisted on her getting married immediately. And she's now got, I want to say, eight children. She's also got a multi million dollar media brand and millions of followers. I guess what I'd say to you first, James, is. Is tradwife culture big or do we just think it is?
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I found myself in a conference last year about culture and it was, it was fine. It was quite good. And a guy called Adam Alexis, who calls himself the etymologist nerd, gave a talk and it was on tradwifes. And I think he's one of the world's experts on trad wives. I remember at the time being like, what am I doing? Why am I here? Why am I not at home? He's basically, he's an American based guy. He's very, very clever. He's basically has analyzed where trad wives have come from, why they're important, what it says about America's culture. Kind of opened my whole world. And I was pretty skeptical at first because I was like, what is this? This sounds pretty weird, as you say.
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Can I just say it is weird?
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It is weird. It's an Internet meme that he thinks came from 4chan very well trusted source of information in 2019. But I hadn't quite understood how embedded it is basically in meme culture.
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Yeah.
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So it comes from, he thinks, what he calls the. The wojack character. Have you come across the wojack character? You've probably seen the cartoon. It's the cartoon that's like. Of a guy that's kind of drawn where he's looking. He's kind of grimacing. That's called. That's apparently called the wojack character, which is a big meme. And he describe this as basically trad wife came about for. As a meme from 4chan, where you basically had Chad, who's the idealized.
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The idealized attractive guy, and then talk about.
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And then trad wife is his wife.
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Yeah.
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And they are part of. What a dialectic. I know this sounds completely ridiculous with Doom a girl and Duma boy who are memes themselves. And this. This became like a thing in 2019.
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Because I tell you, when they're out there making their sourdough, you're not thinking about any of this.
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No. But the provenance, I think, is really kind of important. And basically it just took a life of its own. People saw that. It became a thing. It took a life of its own. The reason why I thought it was really interesting. A couple of things. First of all, Adam saw it in a much larger context, Tradwife. So if you ever go on. If you go on Instagram and you look at Ballerina Farm.
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Yeah.
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And then these other things. The other thing is the color palette. Kind of slightly sepia, sepia colored. Lots of pinks, lots of gold, lots of rose. It's a completely different lifestyle. And it's obviously not that traditional. Cause these people are making millions. And it's literally being filmed all day, but it has millions of followers. I was talking to someone at the Times who was saying their articles on TradWife went off a scale in terms of traffic. So people are fascinated by this.
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Is it part of, like, burnout culture and things like that that, you know, I went to Versailles of my daughter about two weekends ago. If you really walk a long way, you get to Marie Antoinette's Hallow, you know, which is, you know, when you can't really deal with the hecticness and the burnout of the actual palace and the court. You want your getaway fake place where you dye your sheep pink and you play at being some kind of shepherdess.
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Right.
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And we know that the pastoral idol has been going for genuinely, like hundreds of years. Millennia. Millennia.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I'm not going to say that, you know, those people were quiet quitting, but were they? Well, luckily, with the Romantics quiet quitting,
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I think there are two very different things basically going on. King's College London looked at this. So, yeah, Julia Gillard, the ex Prime Minister of Australia, has led a research project on Onto Tradwife with King's College London and we've run some research on it as well. We've been looking at. So since I met Adam, I was slightly. I just couldn't believe I'd missed this whole kind of vector of humanity, that I had no idea what was going on. So I was like, I better take a look at this. So we did some polling and King's College London have also done some work. The first thing to kind of note is that people are quite ambivalent about it. It's not as hated as I think you would expect it.
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No. Some people to be. There's a. There's a yearning and we're definitely going to be using that word a lot in this series, but there is a yearning for that simplicity, I think so.
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So we. We polled both the US and the UK because I had. We had a hypothesis that people in the UK might be slightly different. And in the uk, about a third of the public, we described it pretty neutrally. Yeah, it's this particular life. You take on a certain role. The man does X, the woman does Y. It happens in this kind of cultural and aesthetic context. Fine. Without judgment. And about a third of people in the UK thought that sounded quite nice. 44% of people went, didn't really know, didn't have the view. 22% of people. So basically just above 1 in 5 in the US, slightly more positive. 42% were positive, 40% said, don't know, 70% were negative. But again, it's not that. The cultural penetration of Tradwife isn't that high. In the uk, only one in seven people actually knew what it was and could explain it. So I'm interested in what they think.
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And it's not how people live. It's not at all because people live in households where both people work or
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you have kind of more traditional setups that you would never describe as Tradwife. And it wouldn't.
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It's not a stay at home mother
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and it wouldn't be people having eight kids and secret Instagram account that wasn't secret at all, that earned them hundreds of thousands of pounds a month. But the awareness is quite low. 64 of people in the UK had literally never heard of what Tradwife was. But when we kind of looked into it, around half the public said they found aspects of it admirable and people should be free to choose. 20% of people felt conflicted. They were like, I don't know. 16 of people just thought it was backwards. And 1 in 7, which is I. Which is where I put myself, were pretty suspicious of it and thought it was kind of a social media performance. But if you go underneath the surface and you talk, I'm with you. Is this about burnout? The answer is partially.
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Part of its appeal comes from people who feel burnt out and see something simpler and 100% escapist.
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So we asked people who said, oh, that sounds okay without. Under kind of. Without much context. Right. They've never really known about it. We asked them one question about it. The top reason that people thought that it sounded appealing was the ability to focus on children without feeling guilty about not working. In other words, working and having kids is quite tough. This seems like a kind of. Basically an exit route.
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Yeah.
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Out of that kind of tension. The second top reason was it was a slower, simpler pace of life compared to modern work culture. So people are saying something about the modern way of working. And then the third. So the top three reasons basically are about stress, the freedom of stress and pressure of a professional career when you
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look at the people who are doing it. And I think that Hannah Neeleman's a case in point. I mean, she is a massive brand. As I said, she was a ballerina. She's now a farm wife. There've been various interviews with her and the husband, and he never lets her off on her own. The comments underneath, there are people saying, this is reproductive abuse. This is like an episode of Law and Special Victims Unit. She's exhausted. She's doing a beauty pageant 11 days after she's given birth, and she's only just stopped bleeding. It's all really int. Intense.
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Sounds totally normal.
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Equally, even those with fewer than 100,000 followers can earn several. Several thousand dollars a month. Some. Some who've got 300,000 followers, they're earning $40,000 a month.
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A month.
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These women are earning much, much more than her husbands. Some of them say, I don't even know how much I earn. He deals with all of that for me. But it's like, but you are. You are a mogul. The tradwives. A lot of the tradwives are moguls or want to be moguls.
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And why do you think it is that people are are who don't agree with it. Why is it of such interest? Right. It's gone seriously viral. It's an easy way for a newspaper to get traffic.
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Well, I tell you why there's a lot of that. Well, I now have to feel I have to call like social media, like osint, which is people who just want to find flaws in influencers stories, like they're doing detective work to expose them and say you're not who you say you are. And actually these people more than anyone offer the most simple way to do that. It's like you're presenting yourself as this kind of prelaps Aryan bastard beauty thing. And yet there must be. There's probably two cameras on you at any one at one time, right? This is a massive business. You are earning money via platforms that we don't think of as having anything to do with farming. People love to see through it. And also, I'm sorry to say, people love to see plot lines in families that they follow. And they love to say, oh my God, can you believe they're doing that to that child? And you know, and there's been lots of exposes of YouTube families where you'll say, people say, oh my God, the mother gets them up every morning and they have to do this. It's really bad. Look how sad she's looking in this. Obviously there's things like tattle life in this country, but across Reddit, across everywhere, there are people dissecting this stuff and saying this is not what we're being sold. We're watching. They're almost doing those kind of Netflix documentaries, true life documentaries about stories of abuse. I'm not suggesting that anyone, particularly that I mentioned here at all is involved in one of those, but that people want to say there's such a gap between the image and the thing and that's what people want to think about what they're shown for whatever reason. Maybe because they're just shown so much these days and they hate influencers as a class really generally that people don't like influencers or they say they don't, they spend a lot of time with them for people who don't like them. To me it feeds into lots of conspiracy theories, which is the thing you're being told is not true. And it fits in with that conspiracist zeitgeist.
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So on that, on the topic of conspiracy mindsets, I mentioned this guy called the etymology nerd. Yeah, real name Adam Alexic. This kind of American young 25 year old who's Bit of a kind of sage about Maha, where it's come from.
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His track that's Make America Healthy Again.
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Make America Healthy Again.
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The RFK kind of.
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But also trad wives.
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Yeah.
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And he said, look, it is about how people work and burnout and a sense that it's hard to have a career and to bring up kids and about trade offs and economic trade offs. But he was far more interested in the cultural atmospherics around what he calls returnism versus futurism. And I remember being like, what's this guy talking about? And I think what Adam was saying is that basically there is a growing orb of people in America and I would say across the west whose primary atmospherics are about nature, about analog, about nostalgia, about being anti tech. It was very interesting. And that is related to other kind of aesthetics. Like he mentioned something called cottage core. I was like, what?
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Oh yeah, well, I was going to talk about this when we talked about trends, but yes, neolotism.
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Yeah. And anti AI.
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I read about, I read a survey last week, America Big, big surveys which found that something like 47 of Gen Zers want to live in the past.
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Right. And he was saying, look, there's this, there's this kind of axis of American culture where, you know, some of it is returnism versus the futurism, which is about tech, this abundance kind of theory that's come out of Silicon Valley and accelerationism, which is people who believe that the way is forward to embrace change, to go more. Joe Harder is like avowedly kind of capitalist. And he was saying, right, you can talk about left, right, you can talk about Republican Democrats if you really want to understand TradWives. Yes, it has kind of Republican versus Democrat coding. We've got some kind of polling on that, both in the US but also how that transfers over to the UK. But he talks about this new axis of returnism versus futurism. And he was just like, the aesthetics of TradWife are absolutely critical. As you were saying to cottagecore in this survey of 47 of people who want to live in a cottage, which is somewhere along the lines urb futurism, a kind of culture that steers towards the future is not quite there now. You know, we're going to be talking in later episodes about music and Taylor Swift and music tastes. Yeah, and.
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And genericism.
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Genericism and the role of the past. But this is actually quite a similar theme, which is that TradWife is a kind of window into an alternative and other future that is far more rural. It's not just about gender roles and the polling around that and how people feel about that. It's about saying, actually maybe there's a different way of living attracts maybe potentially who are a bit more conspiracy minded as well.
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It does strike me as well when I think of all the type of content that they produce and, you know, I listed all those things like cleaning by candlelight and making these incredibly detailed school lunches, things like this. All of these are things which 100% you would not imagine AI will ever do.
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Right.
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And all of the things that are happening there, you think people feel like this is something that I could hang on to. And actually the things that they are watching are very, very human, even though it's kind of ridiculous because they're being done on the platforms and they're being done for money and they're making huge amounts of money and what have you. But the things that you are watching in that slightly weird way that, you know, sort of King Charles kind of fetishizes those Romanian peasants. He thinks Romania is this kind of amazing idol. And I read a very interesting article shortly before he was crowned and he sort of went and thought it was absolutely wonderful and it was like. But actually the people don't have any shoes and what they really, really want is satellite television and they want. They want to. They want the world.
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And that's the axis. Well, that actually comes out from the. So we asked people in the uk, who do you think supports tradwives as a movement? The top one was nobody, because this is a very American phenomenon. It's not an American, it's not a British one. First was Trump, second was Farage, so that's political coding. The third one was the Princess of Wales at 18%. Fourth was Andrew Tate. The fifth was Nigella Lawson.
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God, that's.
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And then King Charles was also in the top 10.
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Isn't that interesting? Because actually think of the. The content the Princess of Wales makes as an influencer. All the kind of. I've survived cancer and I've done it via going back to nature and these incredibly weird sepia. I mean, I think odd sepia controlled versions of a form of influencing, really.
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But it taps into something that I think is actually super mainstream, which is the changes that we see in the world. People are largely beginning to think, actually this change in this kind of future accelerationism isn't benefiting me.
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Whether that's technology and it may discard me entirely.
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Yeah.
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Whether that's housing, whether that's how people live, whether that's what you do, whether that's how you bring up your kids. There is a strong mainstream seam of public opinion across both the US and the UK that maybe there is a way of looking back that is nostalgic, that actually is more is a better way to live. The reason why I think you get huge numbers of people who are like, no, I'm not trad wife. I wouldn't want to do that. I'm suspicious of it. But actually there are parts of it that I understand that I like. I think it sits on that bed of maybe backwards is better. And I think the. We haven't talked about the role of AI and the polling that came out of this, but Adam was very, very clear. He's a really, really interesting guy. I. I was in America recently and I was like, let's meet up. And he was like, sorry, I can't answer my phone. And I was like, why? And he was like, well, I'm hanging out with the Neo Lodite no phone community in New York and he's spending time with them. And I found that super interest. He's tracking what atmospherics are linked to what and the fact that he's already made that jump from trad wife to basically no phone usage, which is obviously one of the key. It's one of the key things that we're all now talking about, right, which is like people going back to Nokia 3210. That's not trad wife, but that's, you know, that's somewhere halfway.
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No, all of this is friction maxing or what everyone says, you know, or whatever. It is just making it harder.
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The dopamine hits coming less fast, basically, and.
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Yeah, but what is obviously the big contradiction is that every single person is looking at this on their phone.
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Not that he's the total Jedi on the subject, but he, you know, Adam was saying that the online aesthetics are now shaping offline behavior. But basically there's now this paradoxical loop where you've got all of these people who are doing lots of offline stuff and then they simply come back online to say what they have done. So there's like a call and response feedback loop. So there's all this huge amount of social media content that people being like, right, I'll see you in a day, I'm going to go and do all of these different things like grounding and making this and doing this and cutting wood and doing this and X, Y, Z. And then I'm going to return and talk about it.
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Dutifully talk about it. I want to talk about this on another one of our episodes, I have to say, because I. Yeah, I think a lot of people work for the platforms. This episode is brought to you by Lloyd's. Now, I love it when characters are part of a club. You wouldn't know anything about that, would you, Richard?
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B
Thursday Murder Club in some ways reminds me of the 80s.
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A
I would now like to map each of those characters onto the A team and feel I probably could. I mean, Elizabeth is Hannibal and it's not even close.
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B
That's exactly right. And Ron is howling Mad Murdoch.
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A
Well, there are definite perks to being in a club. Just ask the members of Club Lloyds, because with Club Lloyds, you can bank on Lloyds to give you more. Wherever you are, if you join Club
- [20:23]
B
Lloyds, there's all sorts of benefits you can choose between. There's, for example, six free cinema tickets.
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A
They've got an annual coffee club and Gourmet society membership, which would be mine.
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B
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A
Now, that is a club that's worth being part of. Check out Club Lloyds today. You'll need to be a UK resident and aged 18 or over to apply.
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C
I mean, the other thing about the link between Make America healthy again. So you've given the kind of background to that. It's kind of forefronted by rfk, this idea that modern technology and modern science is. Is only truth adjacent. Right. And that there are other wider truths that you can kind of tap into. It's very, very deep. And that was the kind of the secret cohort of people that kind of Trump, particularly in 2024, was really picking up on. And I think it was absolutely critical to his, like, election victory and actually his brand and how he comes across is this Maha adjacency. And actually when we polled the us, we asked the same question of Americans, like, who do you think supports trad wives? Same people you would expect come up top. Three Trump, J.D. vance, and then the fourth is RFK.
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A
Yeah.
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C
So he's a. I think we can really underplay the cultural impact of rfk, you know, eating roadkill. Right?
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A
Yeah.
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As well as being a secretary, because
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it's sort of adjacent to that. I'm just A girl thing online where people kind of fetishize some form of female incapabilities. You can imagine. I hate this. Is it the end of feminism?
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C
No, I mean feminism and polling is a whole book.
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I should. I should hope so.
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And a whole show. I think. Again, our friends at King's College London, in looking at Tradwife, had a look at some of the. The polling on feminism. And actually there's a. I have a colleague at another firm called Scarlett McGuire who's recently done some polling on the role of young women for the New Statesman. Very interesting. Broadly, if you ask people, are you positive or negative about feminism in the UK, it's like 51 of men say positive, 17 say negative. So big ratio, positive, negative. But substantial minority women is 69 and 8%. So broadly, people are not necessarily wanting to get rid of that paradigm. But what I would also say is that obviously there is a divergence occurring and that that female male difference. Right. Is even more accentuated if you ask not just someone's gender, but whether they're coupled up or not, whether they're single. So if you are a single man who's not in a relationship, only 42% feel positive about feminism, and the same number is 20 negative. Whereas if you are a woman who is in a relationship, that's 71 to 9. So again, you're talking about a kind of 2 to 1 ratio being outstripped by a kind of almost 8 to 1 ratio the other way. So things are more complicated. On balance, almost every group is kind of pro it, but you are starting to see far more conditionality, Right. In the polling around it, which was like. I think there was one particular question that I thought was very interesting, which was like, have things gone too far? And if you look at that polling, those polling numbers are much closer together.
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A
People have always said that.
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They have always have said that. But it's. You think about. When I think about polling and you think about cultural shifts, shifts that have occurred, you used to have this thesis that there's a great arc of liberalization, Right?
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A
Yeah.
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That's just simply.
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I don't. I don't think that anymore. And I reckon a lot fewer of us think it now.
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It's not just. It's simply not the case. Things can unfurl. I think it's far more interesting. That kind of gap, I guess, between younger women and younger men is. Comes out far more in other questions, not to do with feminism, but to do with other issues. So I found really curious in Scarlett's poll. I yeah. Which wasn't it didn't it got a write up in the New Statesman a little bit. But I thought it's far more interesting that men, if you ask, is the UK a racist country? Which is interesting. Right. We're talking about adjacencies here. We've got this whole kind of nostalgia, adjacency of trad wives. You've then got what's the link to feminism? And then I'm like, oh, you look at the polling. Isn't it interesting that 29 of men think that the UK is a racist country, but 57 don't. But the plurality of women do do. It's 43 women think that Britain is a racist country. UK is in.38 don't. And that's super interesting because you've got all these other questions of culture that actually have flip far more and are far more kind of, kind of culturally important. Yeah. And predictive. And so when I think about what. What is, is, is the maha tradwife, cottage core, Neo Luddite returnism or what. Yeah, whatever you want to call it, I think it is slightly separate to a liberal conservative axis. I think it bakes in this sense that maybe the future holds more terrors than the past. And also the fact that maybe accelerating fast towards the future of AI, of urbanization, of all of these different things may not be the best thing.
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A
As I said, all of those things that you see them doing can't really be done or nor would they ever be done by AI. But rather in the same way that you see people are kind of wanting to have more live experiences. All of these things are. Which again, they take more time to do and they harder to get to and what have you. But all of these things are a form of flight from what they're being encouraged to do, which is to. To run joyfully towards. Yeah. People want to get off the future.
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C
You look at the polling and it's just. Or any of the research, right. And people are going to spend on average like anywhere between 5 and 15 to 20 years on their phone. So we've some. Every family now has a new family, permanent family member and it's called your phone.
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A
I want to talk about this when we talk about trends, trend, culture a lot and the spirit of the age. So I'm gonna have to pause it there, but I loved talking about this subject with you in an advised way. Thank you, James.
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C
Thank you, Marina.
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A
See you next time.
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C
See you next time.
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Well, I hope you enjoyed that chat with James Canaga Sorian. We have got five more of them. Those episodes to come, we are covering Gen Z's obsession with label everything, labeling everything. Whether Timothee Chalamet was right about opera and ballet. That's a huge question amongst many of you. How Martin Lewis could actually go about becoming the next Prime Minister. And if my beloved Taylor Swift is in fact just really basic and generic? Join the club now@therealment.com for these bonus episodes. Plus ad free listening, a brilliant weekly newsletter and early access to all our big interviews. Plus we have now launched our summer sale. It is 25 off for a full year's membership. That's just £1 20 a week. Join now at thereses entertainment.com.