How Not To Become A Meme

Summary

Podcast Summary
The Rest Is Entertainment – “How Not To Become A Meme”
Richard Osman & Marina Hyde
Release Date: May 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this Questions and Answers special, Richard Osman and Marina Hyde deliver their signature blend of wit and industry know-how while fielding listener questions on TV scheduling controversies, the anatomy of celebrity memes, the logistics of movie cameos, the craft of breaking the fourth wall, and the hotly debated subject of television’s greatest celebrity quizzer. Both insiders use specific examples from recent television, film, and pop culture moments, offering valuable and often hilarious perspectives from behind the entertainment curtain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The House of Games vs. World Snooker Scheduling Debacle

(02:08–09:21)

• Controversy: The BBC, in the midst of the World Snooker Championship’s record-breaking semi-final frame, cut away to air Richard Osman’s “House of Games” (a repeat), transferring the snooker to the lesser-watched red button digital option.
• Richard’s Breakdown:
  • Normally, the snooker finishes before "House of Games," justifying the standard schedule.
  • The 2026 semi-final featured the longest frame ever at the Crucible (over an hour), causing an unexpected overrun.
  • Both shows attract sizable but distinct audiences—1.4 million for the snooker and 1.8 million for "House of Games."
  • Some snooker fans, especially casual viewers, were “furious” because they were unaware of how to switch to the red button.
  • Regular viewers follow such schedule shifts; “snooker fans were okay with it, but... they were furious that it was taken off for a repeat of a game show.”
• Notable Quote:

  “You don't take House of Games off air because nine times out of ten the snooker is finished... this was the biggest rating frame of the whole year. For House of Games, people would be beyond furious if you took it off.” – Richard (04:00)

• Memorable Moment:

  “Honestly, I was watching on the red button anyway... I just kept watching the snooker. Cause that's where you watch the snooker.” – Richard (07:24)

2. Richard’s Final Episode on House of Games & The Handover

(07:55–09:21)

• Richard reflects on shooting his last ever "House of Games," bringing back champion contestants for a special battle and feeling emotional but grateful for the team.
• Transition: Michael takes over as host; Richard is pleased with the smooth succession.
• Quote:

  “I got to watch Michael hosting as well... seeing the same crew and that same amazing team just carrying on that show, which hopefully will go on forever and ever.” – Richard (08:45)

3. How Should Actors Handle Becoming Memes?

(09:23–12:54)

• Listener Q: How should an actor react to being memed?
  • Lean in (e.g., Will Smith)
  • Disown it (e.g., Demi Lovato)
  • Ignore it (e.g., Cillian Murphy)
• Marina’s Take:
  • The phenomenon is both reputation-enhancing and inevitable in the digital era.
  • Celebrity “resting meme face” is now something actors are actively coached to avoid at awards shows.
  • Strategy: “Unless it’s bad, be grateful... You’ve said something emotionally readable that speaks to our times.”
  • Notable Quote:

    “Actors are being taught about, like, meme face... You know that when you are just in the audience at any award show, any reaction could end up just being clipped forever.” – Marina (11:12)

  • Richard jokes: “Listen, I'm gonna be losing my 20th award in a row for House again... I'm not gonna have—my resting face is not gonna be impressed.” (11:27)

4. Behind-the-Scenes Appreciation: The Indispensable Runners

(13:13–14:02)

• Both hosts heap praise on the often-invisible but crucial youngest crew members (“runners”) who keep the wheels turning on TV productions.
• Quote:

  “If the runners are good, you don’t notice them because nothing goes wrong. And it’s very similar to your bank. You just need them to be there when you need them.” – Richard (13:41)

5. Cameos: The Devil Wears Prada 2 Example

(14:15–18:45)

• Listener Q: What are the logistical challenges in assembling big-name cameos (e.g., in Devil Wears Prada 2)?
• Director David Frankel’s Answer:
  • Scheduling is the hardest part.
  • Some celebrity cameos require coaching on basic filmmaking (“Donatella Versace didn’t understand that you don’t just shoot it once and then go to lunch...").
• Marina & Richard’s Insights:
  • Cameos are “herding high-end cats” with their own egos and expectations.
  • Sometimes starry cameos are cut if they don’t serve the film; e.g., “I’ve read some... that Sydney Sweeney’s was cut.” – Marina (17:40)
  • Celebs often discover on-set that acting—even for a line—is harder than it looks.
• Notable Quotes:

  “It always sounds like fun, but films take forever.” – Richard (17:07) “You will find out very quickly if you can act or not. And the answer is almost certainly you can’t.” – Richard (18:45)

6. Trope Series: Breaking the Fourth Wall

(18:45–25:32)

• Listener Q: Origins and favorite examples of breaking the fourth wall in TV and film.
• Marina’s Deep Dive:
  • The concept comes from theatre’s “proscenium arch” tradition.
  • Only became “a thing” in late 19th-century naturalism; before that, audience address was common (e.g., Shakespeare).
  • First TV example: George Burns and Gracie Allen Show (1950s).
  • Notable recent examples: "Monty Python," "House of Cards" (both UK & US), "Miranda," "Fleabag" (her favorite).
  • Quote:

    “Fleabag... it was unfashionable doing this. And it just... pulled everyone into it. She became someone who epitomized so many women, particularly their issues, their experience of life. And it was so utterly involving.” – Marina (23:47)

  • Richard’s Favorite: "House of Cards"’ Francis Urquhart, comparing it to books that speak directly to the reader (“Reader, I married him”).
  • Quote:

    “Books have always done it... I would love to write a book that starts with sort of acknowledging that you’re about to tell people a story.” – Richard (25:08)

7. The Best Celebrity Quizzer

(25:32–28:15)

• Listener Q: Who is the best celebrity quizzer?
• Richard’s Criteria:
  • Defines the “circuit” (Pointless Celebrities, House of Games, The Chase, Mastermind, Tipping Point, etc.).
  • True “celebrity quizzers” both love quizzes and appear on the shows; the “Holy Grail” is winning trophies from all the major shows.
  • Names disqualified: Richard Herring (bad run on Pointless), Paul Sinha (technically a professional quizzer).
  • Winners: Angela Barnes and Shaun Williamson.
• Quote:

  “Angela Barnes... went five out of five on House of Games... Shaun Williamson, Barry from EastEnders, who was I think the first three-time Pointless Jackpot winner. The two of them... are a phenomenon.” – Richard (27:51)

8. Preview & Member Extras

(28:15–29:04)

• Next week: “Paul McCartney will be answering your questions.”
• Member Bonus: Deep dive into the Michael Jackson Pepsi hair fire incident.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On scheduling chaos:

  “It's one of those things... if you do have something like Wimbledon... you just take House of Games off. With the snooker... it just doesn’t fill enough hours and it doesn’t get enough viewers that you can just move everything out of the way.” – Richard (06:58)

• On meme etiquette:

  “You’ve said something emotionally readable that speaks to our culture and speaks to our times... be glad, obviously. Unless it’s really bad.” – Marina (12:03)

• On fourth wall breaking:

  “Ferris Bueller’s Day Off... invites the audience into a kind of conspiracy of naughtiness and fun. And you’re kind of bunking off with him off school.” – Marina (22:50)

• On the rise of celebrity quizzers:

  “Now there is a circuit on television... but there are people who are just there because it’s fun and it’s a booking and there are people who are there because they want to prove themselves.” – Richard (25:54)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:08 — Scheduling controversy: Snooker vs. House of Games
• 07:55 — Richard’s last episode of House of Games (& handover)
• 09:23 — How actors should handle becoming memes
• 13:13 — The secret power of TV runners
• 14:15 — The logistics of film cameos in Devil Wears Prada 2
• 18:45 — The art/history of breaking the fourth wall
• 25:32 — The ultimate celebrity quizzer debate
• 28:15 — Paul McCartney to answer audience questions; member bonus preview

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Summary Tone

Richard Osman and Marina Hyde maintain a conversational, humorous, and insightful approach throughout—mixing genuine industry analysis with playful asides, self-deprecation, and pop culture references. Their unique chemistry keeps the discussion accessible for casual fans but rich enough for devoted media followers.

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This episode is a must for anyone curious about the machinery, drama, and absurdities of the entertainment world—whether you want to avoid becoming a meme yourself, win a celebrity quiz, or just know why your favorite show suddenly vanished from the TV schedule.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[A]

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[A]

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rest Is Entertainment Questions and Answers Edition. I'm Marina Hyde.

[B]

And I'm Richard Osmond. Hi, everyone.

[A]

Hello, Richard.

[B]

Hey, Marina. How are you?

[A]

I'm very well, thank you. I'm actually glad that our first Question's got something to do with House of Games, because I wanted to know a little bit more about how your last episode felt from Tom Baker. He is Catherine, not the fourth Doctor.

[B]

I've worked for many years with a writer called Tom Baker, whose nickname was Tom Baker not that Tom Baker. So every time you talk to him, he has to say, Tom Baker, not that Tom Baker. What do you think about this?

[A]

Well, this is from Tom Baker, not the fourth Doctor, which I think they might be cousins of the others, but

[B]

also maybe not even the Tom Baker not that Tom Baker, who I know. So this is Tom Baker, not that Tom Baker.

[A]

This isn't it.

[B]

This is Tom Baker, not that Tom Baker, not that Tom Baker.

[A]

Yeah, you're gonna like this one because it begins, I was watching the Snooker World Championships on the BBC.

[B]

There we go. That's all I've been doing.

[A]

And right in the middle of it they cut away for, oh my God, Richard Osmond's House of Games.

[B]

They did.

[A]

Important as House of Games is, it felt pretty jarring, Timing giving, it was live sport and a fairly unus drawn out frame. Got me wondering, how did broadcasters like the BBC actually decide when to pull the plug on live event coverage? Is it strictly schedule driven, no matter what's happening, or is there supposed to be some editorial discretion in moments like that?

[B]

If I have a Venn diagram, it's the World Snooker Championships and House of Games.

[A]

If there's anything designed to torment you. Just having to choose between those two babies.

[B]

Yeah, exactly that. So here's what happened and I've spent a lot of last week having to answer questions about this already, but happy to do it again. So the World Snooker had been on and they have morning session, afternoon session, evening session, and the afternoon session starts about one, usually finishes at about five. So when Wimbledon is on, for example, House of Games is off air because you know that Wimbledon is always. It plays across six o' clock and you know, so they keep it on air for the whole time because Wimbledon is giving them enough coverage and the numbers are high enough that they have to leave it on with the snooker. They can't do that because as I say, it runs from about 1 till 5. And you know the rating, the people who watch snooker love it, like me. And the coverage on the BBC is absolutely impeccable. But you don't take House of Games off air because nine times out of ten the snooker is finished. In fact, sometimes it will finish at like 4 and they just show, you know, flog, it repeats. So on this particular occasion, it's a semi final and it's a bizarre frame. If people have seen it. There was all sorts online about it. That was the longest frame in the history of the World Snooker Championships at the Crucible took an hour. It's like all the reds went over one pocket with the black in front of it. So it was a very unusual frame. We years are against a third circle

[A]

to that Venn diagram. It's like unusual statistical events.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. It was after the frame finished. Steve Davis said it was a disgrace to snooker, but everyone who watched it loved it. So there we go. Because it was unusual, you've never seen anything quite like it before. So we find ourselves in a situation where suddenly the snooker is going over 6 o', clock, which it never does or very, very rarely does, and it's a frame which no one's ever seen before. No one's ever seen anything quite like it before. So the absolute normal thing with the snooker is, and it has been for years and years and years, at 6 o' clock, you go over to House of Games and the snooker goes onto the red button. All evening. It's on BBC4, so every single ball of the entire tournament is on the BBC, but it's on iplayer or it's on Red button or it's on the website. Well, lots of different ways to watch it. And so 5.59, they go. Well, for the last 10 years you've learned how to switch on the iplayer. So this is now going on the red button and we're going to House of Games. But this was the biggest rating frame of the whole year. Before the final, there's 1.4 million people were watching it. And that's a lot of people who don't normally watch snooker and who didn't know that you can just turn onto the red button. And the red button wasn't quite working and all this kind of malarkey. So they switched off in the middle of this incredible or the most boring frame in history. But certainly a lot of people were watching for House of Games, and not just House of Games, but a House of Games repeat. That's the perfect storm we find ourselves in there. If something extraordinary had been happening, absolutely, they would have put House of Games on the red button. But I think their thinking is it's just like a frame in the semi final. You know, we don't quite know that this is gonna go viral. And every single snooker fan knows where to watch the snooker on the BBC. So we'll send them off. And even, you know, it's 1.4 million people watching it. Everyone's going, oh my. But how can they switch off the highest rating thing? But then House of Games is getting like 1.8 million, so what are you gonna do? And people who watch House of Games and they have that routine would be beyond furious if you took it off. And in fact, lots of people who were watching the BBC on the red button were furious. Cause the red button stayed on the snooker and they missed House of Games. So, you know, I was looking at one of the House of Games fan stories on Facebook and they were losing their minds about it. So it's one of those things ordinarily, if, you know, as a channel, if you do have something like Wimbledon and you know, roughly, you know how much content you're gonna have, it's very, very easy. You just, you know, you take Pointless off, you take House of Games off, you take those regular shows off. If it's the snooker, as someone was saying, they should just turn BBC2 onto the snooker channel for two weeks, anything,

[A]

I mean, that'll go down well.

[B]

I mean, wouldn't it, Jess? Something like the snooker, it just, it doesn't fill enough hours and it doesn't get enough viewers that you can just move everything out of the way. So, yeah, it was a. It was a tough call, that one

[A]

for you, for your two tribes. That's hard.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, for me it was particularly tough. But honestly, I was watching on the red button anyway, so it didn't. I was. I just kept watching the snooker. Cause that's where you watch the snooker. Cause you get to see all of it and you can switch between the tables and all of that stuff. So I think that like snooker fans were okay with it, but for people who were just going, oh my God, what is this crazy 100 minute long frame? They were furious that it was taken off for a repeat of a game show, which I get. But listen, nothing to do with me. We said all of my answers were nothing to do with me.

[A]

Nothing to do with me.

[B]

Yeah. And yeah, I don't even do the show anymore. So.

[A]

Speaking of which, can I ask you, what was the last episode like? Was it.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I went up to Manchester last week and did. Yeah, the last ever episode. We brought back people who had been champions and had then had won Champion of Champions. So we did our first ever Champion of. Champion of Champions.

[A]

Oh, wonderful.

[B]

Which was fun. And people like Miles Jupp was on it. A lot of people who I knew I was gonna Have a laugh. Yeah, it was lovely and it was emotional. I loved that crew so much and it was nice to be able to say thank you to all of them. And also the amazing producers there know me well enough not to spring any surprises on me. They knew I would just want a good, solid week of quizzing.

[A]

How many years has it been?

[B]

Nine years? Yeah. Like 850 episodes, something like that. It was lovely. And then I got to watch Michael hosting as well. And just seeing the same crew and that same amazing team just carrying on that show, which hopefully will go on forever and ever and ever. Yeah, it was really, really. I loved it. And I couldn't have had a better last week, so I was absolutely thrilled.

[A]

And that'll air sometime later this year.

[B]

September, I would have thought. Yeah, I would have thought mid September, something like that. It'd be my last week. And then into Michael's first week, we did a little skit as well for post credits, like a handover. It was just a little bit of business. Again, it's only a quiz show, but. So I wanted to mark it, but, you know, it's not. It's not like a new pope.

[A]

It's a big thing in my.

[B]

A question for you, Marina, from Emily Cooper. Emily says, how should an actor react when they're getting memed on the Internet? Should they lean in? Brackets. Will Smith, say they hate them? Brackets. Demi Lovato or pretend they don't have access to the Internet? Brackets Cillian Murphy.

[A]

Cillian Murphy, yeah, the Internet's boyfriend who always just says, you know, I don't have a personal email. He doesn't have a personal email. How. How does he get. Buy things from the shops? That's the only reason you'd have one anyway.

[B]

Do you need a personal email to buy things from the shops?

[A]

Well, you can't get your agent to do it, so I'm just going on Amazon to get something.

[B]

I suppose you need an email. You need an email address. Yes, I saw it. I saw it.

[A]

It's quite annoying if you're using it.

[B]

But you don't have to answer an email. You don't have to sort of.

[A]

No, but you need to call in, don't you? All the time.

[B]

You don't have to say to Sainsbury's re my order, hope everything is going well. And they replied, Cillian. Yeah, just packing it now.

[A]

I just get my agents to do that anyway already. So it's just somewhere I already am in a place. Yes, the actor memes. We all know Them actually, even at the Oscars this year, Conan o' Brien tried to get them to make one. I did think that was a bit like, okay, is it 2016? But trying to get Leonardo DiCaprio, who's very often memed, because he's got that. How would I describe, sort of like a subtle awkwardness and wryness, a kind of small expression. Gotcha. Whereas someone like Jennifer Lawrence is like. It's all up there on the screen. You know, she's very relatable. Chaos or big expressions. Meryl Streep, very theatrical. She's got lots of good reactions. Ryan Gosling's got a specific thing. They're kind of. He's very good at, like, just the eyebrow raise or the imperceptible stuff. And for me, you know, Ben Affleck. What am I doing? What are we all doing? There's a sort of despair in the Affleck. Yeah, I've been told. I mean, I was talking to someone this week, actually, completely by coincidence, and they were saying that actors are being taught about, like, meme face. You know, don't have resting meme face.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

You need resting, natural face. We do know this because you know that when you are just in the audience at any award show, any reaction could end up just being clipped forever.

[B]

But I'm at the baftas on Sunday.

[A]

Yeah, we'll just have resting.

[B]

Listen, I'm gonna be losing my 20th award in a row for House again, so I will be. I'm not gonna have. My resting face. Is not gonna be impressed.

[A]

Okay, well, you could become a meme. When we were talking the other week about select committee hearings and things like that. It's very difficult, you know, to have to constantly be on and not be making any kind of face. I mean, I personally definitely couldn'. How should they handle them? I would say, unless it's bad. Be grateful is my short answer to this. You have said something emotionally readable that speaks to our culture and speaks to our times. Really. I mean, you know, this is why the reason I'm seeing a lot of Ben Affleck leaning against the door with a cigarette in his hand with his eyes shut, looking absolutely despairing. I mean, you've said something that speaks to the times. And also in an always on culture, you don't even have to go out there and work. It's just constantly getting circulated.

[B]

I'm just ashamed you're not monetizing it,

[A]

but it's a shame. But you're staying in the conversation. And there's a Trickle down for sure. I would say to be glad, obviously. Unless it's really bad and you're doing something that's just, oh, my God, why did I do that? And forever afterwards it's being used. In general, though, these things are very easily emotionally readable and they're relatable, otherwise we wouldn't keep using them as proxy for our own reactions to things.

[B]

And that's an actor's job.

[A]

Yeah. And they have become a proxy. You couldn't have explained this to someone 20 years ago, you just couldn't have explained it. But now we use these to put our own emotions out in the world. So I would say it's great and lean in.

[B]

Shall we go for a little break?

[A]

Let's go for a break. This episode is brought to you by Lloyd, who you can rely on to keep life running smoothly now. You know, what isn't celebrated enough is the behind the scenes work that makes successful entertainment seem so smooth.

[B]

You know, you go onto any sort of set and there's the talent and everyone's having to run around after them. But the people having to run around after them are the runners. And there is not a single successful television show that isn't powered by brilliant runners.

[A]

Whenever you hear a director or actor say, you know, we're all just one big happy family, I always think, yeah, and you're the children. And the people who are like, running around are actually always the youngest people on set because runners are always really young. It's an absolute first job in the business.

[B]

And the other key thing is if the runners are good, you don't notice them because nothing goes wrong. And it's very similar to your bank. You just need them to be there when you need them.

[A]

Well, like with the Lloyds app, you can check lots of handy things, little details, what payments you have coming up, what subscriptions you're paying for. It is this kind of helpful, smart stuff that makes 14 million people bank on Lloyds.

[B]

And that's based on Lloyds internal customer data from March 2026. But we just want to say thank you to all the runners and thank you to Lloyds.

[A]

Welcome back, everybody. Now, as promised, we've got a question about devil wears Prada 2 from Andrew Fletcher.

[B]

He says, I'm sure more and more films now feature cameos, heavily brackets. Devil wears Prada 2. What's the logistical challenge of achieving things like this? Now, we thought because Devil wears Prada 2 is out right now and doing enormous business and does feature celebrity cameos. We asked your question, Andrew to the director of The Devil West Prada 2, David Frankels. Well, Andrew, the logistical challenge of having all these cameos is scheduling them. You know, just getting everybody to show up on time. You know, we were lucky enough that so many people wanted to be a part of the movie and you know, we, we actually couldn't accommodate everybody who wanted to be in. But yeah, just finding and finding the right spot and, and, and you know, and then of course a lot of them had never been in a movie before. So, you know, Donatello Versace didn't understand that you don't just shoot it once and then go to lunch. That there's, that there's more than one shot and you have to do it over and over. So, you know, there's different challenges with each one, but mostly scheduling.

[A]

That's so interesting. Funnily enough, from Tina Brown on her substack this week. She is in a cameo in this movie and out in the Hamptons or something where Miranda Priestly obviously has a house. The Meryl Streep character. There's a lunch taking place and Tina Brown's at it. And Carl Swisher, who's, you know, another

[B]

American kind of commentator.

[A]

Yeah, there's lots of people and Tina Brown describes the day and it's really like we all get picked up at the front. Were really excited because it'd be the devilworth's parlor. They've got to sit around. It gets very, very hot. By about 11 o' clock, they're sitting around this lunch table. They're having some kind of lobster dish. They're obviously not allowed to have it, but they definitely wouldn't want to eat it after a certain number of hours because it's got very, very hot and it goes on. I think they finally get out of it at 8pm so that was quite a long lunch. Not in the old fashioned sense. So I definitely think that managing those ones are quite difficult. And especially the ones I've seen, there's a Rory McIlroy again. Why is Rory McElroy in it? But anyway, in a crowd scene. And I thought that will have taken a while.

[B]

Rory McElroy's in a crowd scene in

[A]

a. Rory McElroy's wife. A party, you know, a party. But a party scene, as we know, can take a really long time to do because people are doing the wrong thing in the background.

[B]

It feels like a grand idea doing a cameo, but it's always, I would

[A]

say it's like people talk about herding high end cats, but all of these Cats have got. I mean, like all cats, really, a number of views about their own status. Donatelli, Versace. I wonder how many times they told us they had to say, yeah, we're just gonna do it one more time. Actually, no, now we're doing this coverage or that coverage. Is it my coverage?

[B]

It always sounds like fun, but films take forever. I mean, and not because people are lazy or stupid. They just. It's one of those things that just takes forever. But Rory McElroy is also in Happy Gilmore 2. So he already knew.

[A]

I mean, that's more understandable why he's in Happy Gilmore 2.

[B]

I know why he's in Happy Gilmore 2.

[A]

I was very happy to see him in the Devil Prodigy, but he wouldn't have been my first pick for an automatic cameo.

[B]

Yeah, that feels very peculiar. But, you know, it's good for the brand and. But, yeah, and ego things. I love that David Frankls was saying that they couldn't accommodate everyone. So you're thinking, oh, there's.

[A]

I've read of people having theirs cut. I've read some. I don't know whether this is true that Sydney Sweeney's was cut.

[B]

But that's the thing as well. It doesn't matter who they are if it's not working for the movie. It's nothing to do with the person in the cameo. It's just the. Of the film and the duration. And you have to cut. You know, imagine if you had to cut the scene that Tina Brown and everyone's in. That's an awful lot of people who.

[A]

Well, Tina Brown said she couldn't deliver a line. She thought she could. And then she says, I'm like. I end up a mute guest at this party because even though one of the great talkers. Cause once she has to say the thing she says, it just sounds like sort of fake words.

[B]

And it's impossible. That's why, you know, you can't ever say, I do lots of. With Ingrid. And until you do it, you think, oh, I can't act. I have no way of doing this. I have no way of sounding natural. I cannot do it. And, you know, God bless. Rory McIlroy from the Happy Gilmour movie was sort of the same. And then you get someone like in Happy Gilmore, which had so many cameos. Bad Bunny. Unbelievable.

[A]

Yeah, he's in court stealing, which is. And he actually plays a proper role. I think he'll. We'll see him out more and more. He's very good.

[B]

John Daly was amazing in Happy Gilmore 2. He was just really, really good. But yeah, it's until you turn up for a cameo and are given a line, you will find out very quickly if you can act or not. And the answer is almost certainly you can't. Question from Tom Rose. For you, Marina, your trope series. We didn't mean it to be a trope series, but yeah, we've covered MacGuffins, Chekhov's guns and Red Shirts. I would like to ask about breaking the fourth wall. Presumably this comes from theater, but who was the first to do this on tele? And what are your favourite examples?

[A]

Oh, yes, this is. It definitely comes from theatre. If you imagine a theatre stage with a proscenium arch as a sort of three sided box and then the bit that you're looking through that wall is the fourth wall. Just to sort of. For anyone who doesn't know what this is, but the characters don't acknowledge the artifice, that there's an audience there or whatever. It's almost like, you know, someone's just taken the lid off and we're having a look into their world. And it's the same in tv. It's when people don't look into the camera that the camera is effectively the fourth wall in television. Because we're roving everywhere.

[B]

Yeah. And when they do directly look into the camera and talk to you, they're

[A]

talking to you, the audience. They're acknowledging that we're sort of in a fiction, but we are and we aren't and whatever, you're right. It's been happening in theater forever. But actually, interestingly, we didn't even think. No one thought in ancient Greek drama, no one thought of it as a fourth wall because it was so normal for them to talk to the audience and whatever. It's only actually in the late 19th century when naturalism as an idea comes in and people start talking about a box set, you know, and a room and a fourth wall. Before then in Shakespeare, obviously everyone's talking to the audience. There are constants of soliloquies and addressing of the audiences and choruses and prologues and epilogues and all of that stuff. It's only actually at the end of the 19th century that becomes a thing. Even in early cinema it starts to happen and people talk to the audience, which is kind of radical. But on t your questions about tv, I had a look into this. There were some animations where it sort of happens, but I don't think we account animations as. As what you're asking about the George Burns and Gracie Allen Show. They were a married couple and they were both comedians and they had a sitcom about being married in the 50s. So that would've been the 50s. And that happened then. It was a big thing. George Burns himself. You can see lots of these old episodes on YouTube and you might have seen them if you've ever been in America. They used to rerun this all the time, certainly, I think as recently as the 90s. But it does seem very old now. It's black and white. And whatever George Burns used to kind of start, it was all filmed in live studio. He would also narrate to the camera and by the end he was sort of watching it on tv, which is very, very meta. It's a kind of meta commentary because you're addressing the audience directly. Actually. There are funny. There's interesting examples, which I really revere David Letterman, I think he's extraordinary and extraordinary broadcaster. And when he. Before he became Letterman of late night, he had a daytime show. And there was a time where once it was going so badly, they were rating so badly and they knew they were gonna get cancelled. And he bought on TV onto set and put on what was on the other channel, what was on one of their rivals, and started just deconstructing it and laughing about it. So that's an example. I mean, although you couldn't say that because that's not a fiction and he was a director. But there's a sort of meta to that. Monty Python obviously did it a lot. These days, it's almost always done as comedy. Miranda exceptions to that. Yeah, Miranda exceptions to that are things like House of Cards, where. But again, that was the US one. Kevin Spacey, as Frank Underwood, would address the camera. But that was based on the British House of Cards and it was very. That was very theatrical.

[B]

Brilliantly done. Exactly.

[A]

Brilliantly done, but something very theatrical about it. So I'm gonna say some of my favourites, in no particular order, since luckily you didn't ask for that. Ferris Buellah. I love Ferris Buellah and Ferris Bueller's Day Off. I love the way he addresses the camera, because what it does there is invite the audience into a kind of conspiracy of naughtiness and fun. And you're kind of bunking off with him off school and you just felt like it's about feeling part of the gang. I love that. I love when Woody Allen does it in Annie hall as Alvy's singer. He said, you know, I really felt like my character was so epitomized the problems with the audiences that I Wanted to speak to the audience directly. So I love. It's one of my favorite films. This is gonna feel like a period piece because now everything's sponsored and whatever. But Wayne's World, when they did all the sponsorship and talked to the camera, Mike Myers and Dana Carvey in that movie, it felt so radical and so new and so like, oh, my God, I can't believe they're acknowledging this thing. And it was a real sort of. Again, it's always postmodern and meta. I will actually say that my number one is Phoebe Waller Bridge in Fleabag, because, first of all, you knew it grew out of a theatrical show, and that's why it really works. But also, it was unfashionable doing this. Okay, yes, it was very cool when Mike Myers does In Wayne's World, but that was ages ago. And that was something sort of, as I say, quite radical. But this was unfashionable. And it just. Because no one really did it. It was stagey, and yet it pulled everyone into it. She became someone who epitomized so many women, particularly their issues, their experience of life. And it was so utterly involving, and it was very, very. Although, as I say, it's been going on for genuinely millennia, it somehow felt completely fashion radical, new, and also kept its roots in the stage show, out of which.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I would have said if I had a number one. You mentioned it already, Francis Urquhart in House of Cards, because you hit the ground running in that show and because it feels very Shakespearean. It feels acceptable that someone is delivering a little prologue to you. And then every now and again, he'd just look absolutely down the lens and say something to explain what just happened or so arch.

[A]

And you felt you were being let into that archness.

[B]

But again, comes from a book, and books have always done it. I mean, reader, I married him. That's the perfect example of breaking the fourth wall. And I've, you know, read lots of books, the slightly sort of Victorian and earlier novels that it is. Someone is clearly writing a novel. And they say, I'm writing a novel, but here is our story, dear reader. And I love that sort of thing. I think that I would love.

[A]

Well, we like Plays within plays.

[B]

Yeah, plays within Plays.

[A]

I mean, anything like that that acknowledges the artifice but somehow still makes it mean so much. Yeah, it is. I'm really into it.

[B]

Well. Cause, you know, with a novel, it really makes sense because, you know, you are sort of, you know, if you're. Or whoever you are, Dickens or whoever you are recounting a tale that happened to some people and you're allowed to say here is the tale that happened. I am Charles Dickens. And yeah, I won't say I'm Charles Dickens if I did it, but I would love to write a book that starts with sort of acknowledging that you're about to tell people a story. Yes, that'd be loads of fun.

[A]

This can only be for you, Richard. Annie Norris would like to know. She says, I feel this is a question only Richard can answer rightly. Who is the best celebrity quizzer?

[B]

I mean it's a question that would seemed weird a few years ago because what does that even mean? But now there is a circuit on television which is pointless Celebrities, rip House of Games, the Chase Tipping Point, Lucky Stars. Celebrity Mastermind attracts all sorts of celebrities onto it but does also attract celebrity quizzes which are celebrities who love to quiz. And, and this is a perfect. So it's really like a two speed thing, celebrity quizzing on tv. Cause there are people who are just there because it's fun and it's a booking and there's people who are there cause they want to prove themselves. And you know, there is the holy grail of winning the Pointless trophy, the House of Games trophy, the Mastermind trophy and the Chase. And you know there's lots of people who've been on all of them. It's tricky cause lots of those shows are different, harder to win. Celebrity Mastermind. If you win that, it sort of shows something about yourself. House of Games as well. I think there's sufficient, you know, different difficulties in the questions. That's something that quizzes like to do. You know, something like the Chase. You can be judged on how much money that you've made. Someone who's won sort of all of those shows is Richard Herring. Sometimes people say oh, Richard Herring must be the best celebrity quizzer. But every time he's on point with celebrities he did terribly. I think it's like first three appearances on that didn't get past the first round. So I'm at. If you're listening Richard, I'm disqualifying you. And you know, you know I have to. Someone like Steve Pemberton every time he goes on something does incredibly well. He's a very, very good quizzer house against very few people have won all five shows. Jay Rayner did, Vittorio Angelone did. But I would say the two best celebrity quizzes in my view. And this goes across the Chase. It goes across Beat the Chase as it goes across to their Mastermind all of those things. Angela Barnes, I would say, who went five out of five on House of Games and has done all sorts of things on other quizzes as well. And Sean Williamson, Barry from EastEnders, who was I think the first three time Pointless Jackpot winner. The two of them, I would say he's a phenomenon. He is a phenomenal. I mean Paul Sinner of course is the best celebrity quizzer really, but in some ways he's a quizzer. Yeah, he is a quizzer because he is like a professional quizzer as well. But he would, if you're, you know, he's a wonderful stand up as well. So if you just take him as a standup, he is of course the best celebrity quizzo. But if you want people who were celebrities and just go on quizzes, I'm going. Angela Barnes and Shaun Williamson.

[A]

Next week we will not be answering any questions because Paul McCartney will be answering. So.

[B]

Paul McCartney.

[A]

Yeah, we'll be answering your questions. We are extremely excited about that. So do join us for that and

[B]

also thank you for, I mean, I mean a so many questions. I'm really, really sorry if we don't get to yours, but we won't be asked to go. Yeah, we won't but imagine. But really, really, really some great and very, very smart questions and hopefully different questions than he's been asked before.

[A]

Other than that. Tomorrow for our members we have a bonus episode about the Michael Jackson Pepsi commercial incident. His hair caught fire.

[B]

Not the most controversial thing that ever happened to him, but

[A]

there were ripple effects. Anyhow, that's if you want to become a member for ad free listening and bonus episodes, it's theresticentertainment.com otherwise we'll see you next Tuesday.

[B]

See you next Tuesday.