The Chappell Roan Bodyguard Drama

Summary

The Rest Is Entertainment
Episode: The Chappell Roan Bodyguard Drama
Date: April 1, 2026
Hosts: Richard Osman, Marina Hyde

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Overview

In this lively Q&A episode, Richard Osman and Marina Hyde dive into hot pop culture topics—anchored by the headline-grabbing “Chappell Roan bodyguard drama”—and answer listener questions with wit, insider knowledge, and a dose of industry gossip. With guest contributions from Lisa Kudrow and Michael Patrick King (on knowing when to leave a hit show) and Noah Wyle (on the realism of medical dramas), the episode unpacks everything from celebrity etiquette to classic film tropes, providing an accessible behind-the-scenes guide to current entertainment debates.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The Chappell Roan Bodyguard Drama (01:41–09:34)

• Summary of the Drama:
  The episode opens with a listener question on the recent news involving Brazilian footballer Jorginho and his partner’s daughter (Jude Law’s child) being brought to tears by someone assumed to be Chappell Roan’s security at a hotel in São Paulo.

  • Marina: “The daughter is also his current partner, and her daughter was Jude Law’s. So it’s not actually Jorginho’s daughter. Again, there’s a lot of angles…” (02:13)
  • The 11-year-old girl simply walked past the singer’s table, resulting in a confrontational bodyguard allegedly telling her mother to “control your daughter,” leaving the child in tears and skipping the Chappell Roan show.
  • Chappell Roan later denied the bodyguard was working for her.

• Who Was the Bodyguard?

  • Turns out, the same bodyguard was formerly tied to the Kim Kardashian Paris robbery.
  • Marina: “He still really needs to go back to bodyguard school… He didn’t check the Insta, which is a key part of bodyguard duties nowadays.” (03:47)

• Celebrity Boundaries & Public Interaction:

  • The hosts reflect on the parasocial relationships fans feel with celebrities, pointing out that boundaries are especially fraught in the social media era.
  • Examples from Billie Eilish, Adele, Selena Gomez, and Britney Spears highlight the pressures on celebrities.
  • Marina: “People do have this very, very weird way of behaving with celebrities… it can obviously become overwhelming, but a lot of people love to be told, ‘I love you. You’re fantastic.’” (05:47)

• The Modern Bodyguard Boom:

  • The celebrity protection industry has exploded, including social media personalities wanting bodyguards, often for status as much as security.
  • Bodyguards themselves sometimes become “part of the content,” especially with livestreamers like HS Tikitoki.
  • Richard: “There’s a whole new layer of celebrities that need bodyguards. So many of these people are out live-streaming, TikTokers, YouTubers…they all become part of the content in the end.” (07:48)

• Resolution:

  • The bodyguard’s name is revealed as Pascal Duvier. He admits he wasn’t employed by Chappell Roan, but was present as a freelance bodyguard.
  • Marina: “He doesn’t say anything about that [working for anyone else]. I wonder whether so much pressure has been brought to bear on him and he’s been told he’ll never work in this industry again, but…he will because so many people need them.” (09:19)

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2. Celebrity & Fan Etiquette (06:00–07:47)

• Richard’s Rules:
  • “If you just recognise someone from TV, do not go up to them… Let people go about their day.” (06:00)
  • “The less someone knows you, the more of your time they will take up, that is for sure.” (06:45)
• Funny Moments:
  • Claudia Winkleman’s habit of signing autographs as Davina McCall just to keep people happy. (07:26)

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3. Pop Culture Blind Spots:

What Have the Hosts Never Seen? (10:05–15:29)

• Richard: Hasn’t seen (and will never see) most Disney films or Game of Thrones.
• Ingrid Connection: Saved “The Sopranos” to watch with his wife Ingrid:
  • “We were saving it for the right person and we found it right there.” (13:12)
• Philosophy: Sometimes the hype pushes you away from cultural touchstones until it’s “the right moment or person.”
• Marina: Not sharing direct blind spots, but compares this attitude to the famously film-averse footballer Michael Owen.

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4. Knowing When to Leave a Hit Show

Celebrity Guest Segment: Lisa Kudrow & Michael Patrick King (17:29–19:01)

• Lisa Kudrow: (On “Friends” and “The Comeback”)
  • “Yeah, we went out when we were still…number one, or number two behind Survivor… But also for some people they feel like…the stories are getting strained.” (17:29)
• Michael Patrick King:
  • “It became the brand of the show that we come back and then go. And this time, we’re not coming back. We’re just here to enjoy the last comeback.” (18:09)
• On Artistic Fulfilment:
  • “As writers, we created it, and we really like that it’s been kind of a dense experience. We wouldn’t want to water it down.” (18:09)
• On Endings:
  • “Now, it’s a full piece…A third makes it a trilogy and a whole piece.” (18:36)
• Host Reflection:
  • Richard: “If you’re an actor leaving a show or ending a show or a writer ending a show is two different things…as a writer, you have been working an awful lot longer…and will often understand the limitations of a character…” (20:11)
  • Importance of not dragging out a hit simply because of success—knowing when to “leave the stage.”

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5. Screenwriting Tropes: Chekhov’s Gun & MacGuffins (22:04–28:37)

• Chekhov’s Gun Explained:
  • Marina: “Chekhov’s gun in screenwriting…is anything that’s introduced and…it has a point…it’s paid off later.” (22:23)
• Examples & Favorites:
  • “Shaun of the Dead:” The Winchester rifle over the bar. (23:11)
  • “Hot Fuzz:” Every minor detail in Act 1 pays off in Act 3 (24:13).
  • “Back to the Future:”
    • Marina: “Every single thing in that first scene before you even see a human…Everything is paid off. It is so satisfying.” (25:26)
    • Richard: “It’s just joyful…Chekhov’s gun is the perfect thing. If you’re watching things, you really want to understand how things are put together…” (26:20)
  • “Shawshank Redemption:” Subtle setup with the Rita Hayworth poster; payoff at the climax. (27:10)
• On MacGuffins:
  • The hosts and their screenwriter friends debate the definition, finally proposing:
    • “The MacGuffin is the bit that explains the motivation, but doesn’t need to be in and of itself explained.” (28:28)
  • Adds that Hitchcock and Lucas would surely disagree if in the debate group.

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6. Realism in Medical Dramas: The Pit & ER

Guest: Noah Wyle (29:19–32:09)

• Noah Wyle: (Star of “ER” and “The Pit”)
  • Aim of “The Pit”: “We set out to sort of make this a love letter to first responders…as honest a look as we possibly could make it.” (29:19)
  • On Authenticity:
    • Going ultra-realistic can backfire: “The downside is…when you come off so much like a documentary, any dramatic license…becomes pronounced as critiques.” (30:05)
    • But the tension between fact and fiction generates drama: “If you have three doctors on your writing staff and one says, that would never happen, the other one says, except for the time I did it. And then you finally have a scene…” (30:25)
  • Host Reflection:
    • Writers often debate whether accuracy or dramatic impact should take priority—but ultimately storytelling must come first.
    • Marina: “People who just do not allow any license…just go and hang around in A&E.” (31:34)
    • Need for plausibility, not strict adherence to reality.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Marina Hyde on Parasocial Culture:
  • “People do have this very, very weird way of behaving with celebrities.” (05:47)
• Richard Osman on Celebrity Approaches:
  • “The less someone knows you, the more of your time they will take up, that is for sure.” (06:45)
• Lisa Kudrow on Endings:
  • “Now it’s a full piece, right? It would have been weird if it was two seasons…But a third makes it a trilogy and a whole piece.” (18:36)
• Michael Patrick King on Creative Closure:
  • “As writing, you leave your main character, where you want her to be, and we’re both very, very happy about where Valerie landed.” (18:49)
• Richard Osman on Screenwriting Tropes:
  • “Chekhov’s gun is the perfect thing…If something crops up, if something is mentioned…it will later be used.” (23:21)
• Noah Wyle on Medical Drama Realism:
  • “Any dramatic license you take…become pronounced as critiques. And so we fall into this sort of gray area…That’s the dialogue that you arrive at.” (30:07)
• Marina Hyde on Accuracy:
  • “People who just do not allow any license…just go and hang around in A&E, if that’s what you want to watch.” (31:34)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:41–09:34: Chappell Roan Bodyguard Drama/Modern Celebrity Boundaries
• 10:05–15:29: Pop Culture Blind Spots (Films/Shows They’ll Never See)
• 17:29–19:01: Knowing When to Leave a Hit Show feat. Lisa Kudrow & Michael Patrick King
• 22:04–28:37: Chekhov’s Gun, MacGuffins, and Screenwriting Craft
• 29:19–32:09: Medical Realism in TV Dramas feat. Noah Wyle

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Overall Tone & Style

The episode is equal parts sharp, irreverent, and warm, with the hosts blending playful banter, deep-dive analysis, and industry name-dropping. It’s both affectionate and slyly satirical—a trademark “Rest Is Entertainment” mix of pop-pathos, showbiz skepticism, and genuine entertainment nerdery.

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Perfect for listeners seeking:

• The latest entertainment drama decoded
• Behind-the-scenes context from industry veterans
• Smart, witty discussion of pop culture phenomena
• Practical etiquette tips for fan-celebrity encounters
• Insights from the writers and stars of top TV shows

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For exclusive bonus episodes and more, visit therestisentertainment.com.

Transcript

[Richard Osman]

The rest is entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now can I tell you something cool that Octopus Energy do? If you ring them and you have to be put on hold because they know who you are, they know your birthday. The hold music is the best selling single from the year that you were 14. That's quite cool, isn't it?

[Danny]

Yes, I love this.

[Richard Osman]

Exactly. I've looked into it for you. Do you want to know the best selling single in the year that you turn 14? So this would be your old music on Octopus Energy. It is. Yaz. The only way is up. What do we think to that?

[Danny]

Well, yes, and the plastic population.

[Richard Osman]

Yes, and the plastic population. Population. Oh, of course. Do you know what I sometimes think the plastic population do not get their due.

[Marina Hyde]

They don't get there. They don't get their credit, do they? You know, I need to ring into

[Danny]

Octopus now and just listen to it. You can choose to say, oh, I don't want to have any hold music at all.

[Richard Osman]

Absolutely. Yeah, you can, you can do whatever you want.

[Marina Hyde]

What animals, what monster? Okay, it might be a really bad

[Danny]

song but what monsters don't choose to listen.

[Marina Hyde]

I have to say to the song.

[Danny]

Yeah, I love that they do.

[Richard Osman]

I hope we're going to do this for me in another episode but then, but then we find out if I. Yeah, I think I'm considerably older than you, aren't I?

[Marina Hyde]

Not that much. What it's like two, three years, is it?

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. You'll be saying. And the best selling single in the year that you were 14, Richard. It's Cumberland Gap by Lonnie Donegan.

[Marina Hyde]

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rest Is Entertainment Questions and Answers Edition. I'm Marina Hyde.

[Richard Osman]

And I'm Richard Osman. Hello, listeners. Hello, Marina.

[Marina Hyde]

Hello, Richard.

[Danny]

How are you?

[Richard Osman]

I'm very well. We're gonna be answering questions. We've also got a couple of celebrities answering questions as well today. That's the thing on this show. If you send in questions a occasionally we put your questions really to some quite impressive people. I think we've outdone ourselves this week. Yes, More on that later. Before that, you're gonna have to listen to boring old us answer some questions, I'm afraid.

[Danny]

Hit me with one.

[Richard Osman]

You ready to go straight in? Danny has a question. Danny says in a statement made by Brazilian footballer Jorginho. I tell you what, it's not often we start with that, is it? He's claimed that Chapel Rowan security guard made his daughter cry while on holiday. This story's been all over the papers. After she seemed excited. They were both staying at the same resort. In your opinion, should you always just leave a celebrity alone?

[Danny]

There are so many strands to this question. I agree.

[Marina Hyde]

Jorginho, we loved him at Chelsea, was an interesting advocate for this particular angle

[Danny]

about stars and fans.

[Marina Hyde]

The daughter is also his current partner,

[Danny]

and actually her daughter was Jude Law. So it's not actually Jorginho's daughter. Again, there's a lot of angles which we haven't got time to get into.

[Richard Osman]

So Jorginho is with the mother of Jude Law's.

[Danny]

One of the. Yeah, I mean, I think he's got seven children.

[Richard Osman]

This is a spider's web already.

[Danny]

It is. Just park that for the week.

[Richard Osman]

We are going to have no time for those celebrity answers, I'm afraid.

[Marina Hyde]

They're in Sao Paulo. Chapel Rowan's performing that night. And actually the daughter's got tickets. They happen to be in the same fancy hotel. And the daughter, just because they say, oh, she's over there, you know, the daughter doesn't confront. She's 11.

[Danny]

She's also the most incredibly adorable little picture of her.

[Marina Hyde]

She just walks past the table.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, that was like me with Dennis Healey on Haywards heath Station in 1979. Just walking past going, yeah, it's him. It's him. Dennis Healey was my Chapel Rowan.

[Danny]

That should be the title of your autobiography.

[Richard Osman]

I then suddenly, Dennis Healey's bodyguard pushes me onto the tracks. He didn't really.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, a bodyguard who is obviously assumed to be Chapel Rowan's bodyguard comes up and says to the mother of this girl, you need to control your daughter. You don't do that. You never behave like that. The girl's in tears, the whole thing. She doesn' end up going to the Chapel Roan show that night. Chapel Roan's then since posted, saying this bodyguard was not working for me.

[Danny]

I kind of really entered the story because, like, what? There's just a sort of random mercenary wandering around the hotel. Breakfast. But hang on a minute, because this

[Marina Hyde]

bodyguard, it's quite interesting.

[Danny]

This is the bodyguard who was the

[Marina Hyde]

one who was supposed to be guarding Kim Kardashian when she had that awful, genuinely horrific experience in Paris when she. They break in, they tire up, and they steal all the jewelry. Now, this guy, and he still really needs to go back to bodyboard school. Bodyguard school, because he. First of all, he didn't check the Insta, which is like a key part

[Danny]

of bodyguard duties nowadays.

[Marina Hyde]

She'd posted and it included the location.

[Danny]

Yeah. Posted pictures of the jewelry.

[Marina Hyde]

He'd Gone out in a.

[Danny]

To a nightclub with Courtney and Kendall.

[Marina Hyde]

I think the insurance company sued him

[Danny]

personally in the end.

[Marina Hyde]

So the bit I haven't got yet

[Danny]

is what on earth this freelance mercenary bodyguard is doing wandering around the hotel Redemption arc and maybe trying to get

[Marina Hyde]

in on her security team. Anyway, she's. People have a thing about Chapel Roan because she said, I don't want fans coming up to me. And lots of things that are very sympathizable with. If that's a phrase in the modern era where people just feel like they have this parasocial relationship and you feel like you're never off. And people do have far fewer boundaries. So she's. It's really bad for her reputation, this. And you can see that she's really. And she's tried to find the hotel to say this person wasn't working with us because I think it makes her look dreadful because of things we already know about her and because of beliefs that some people just have, like, you know, we pay your wages and you should be available to us at all times.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

So in terms.

[Danny]

I don't think the girl, Jorginho's stepdaughter, did anything wrong whatsoever in walking past the table.

[Marina Hyde]

And I don't think any celebrity would really think that. People do have this very, very weird way of behaving with celebrities. I mean, Billie Eilish said she was approached at a funeral for selfies. Adele has talked about being in the gym. Selena Gomez, who has lupus and requires various hospital stays, has been approached by people in hospital. And, you know, we go back to the days of the bad old days of the naughties and Britney Spears and people would just hang around hospital entrances. It's very odd what people do. So many celebrities love people coming up to even. It can obviously become overwhelming. But a lot of people love to

[Danny]

be told, I love you. You're fantastic. That they are in the entertainment industry. And I have to say that they

[Marina Hyde]

often do like that if they're having their breakfast. She didn't do anything wrong. She just walked past the table. But there is a time and a place.

[Danny]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

If you want basic etiquette, you can almost always get. Certainly if you. By the way, if you just recognize someone from tv, do not go up to them. Right. You like. Like that you just, you know, just let people go about the day. If you're. If you. If you, you know, for example, if you've watched on a show or you've been to see them live or you bought a book or Anything like that. You. It is absolutely your right. You can go and say hello. Just want it, you know, it's nice to see you in the street. Absolutely. You can do that. The only times you wouldn't do it, if someone is. Someone stopped me when I was running for a train. That's that. Yeah, because. Because of course you have to stop. You can't, you know, so don'. Yes. If someone's with their kids and they're all chatting away again, it's common sense, but I would say don't even worry about it. 99% of times that anyone's ever approached me or anyone's ever approached people I've worked with, it's. People instinctively know to do it. But if you do not really know who somebody is, you could just. The less someone knows you, the more of your time they will take up, that is for sure. People.

[Marina Hyde]

How often we be asking you to identify yourself.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, but, yeah, you do get. People go, sorry, where do I know you from? Yeah, I'm literally. I am walking down the street. You know, I get. It's, you know, it's go, can I get a selfie? And you go, this is terrible. You say if someone. I can't remember who told me this, but they said, if someone asks you for a selfie, just say, if you can tell me my name, you can have a selfie.

[Marina Hyde]

I think Claudia Winklevin signed loads of

[Danny]

autographs of Davina McCall just to make them happy.

[Michael Patrick King]

Yeah.

[Danny]

Because they don't want her. They just wanted Davina, so she would. I don't. I think it happens quite so much now, but back in the day, she signed a lot of stuff.

[Richard Osman]

But, yeah, that's the thing, is it isn't. It's nice for everybody. But, yeah, it's. If you don't know who some. If you don't know someone's name, don't approach them. That would be weird.

[Danny]

Bodyguarding.

[Marina Hyde]

I mean, bodyguarding's become so odd because so many of them are now. Because there's a whole layer of. We've talked lots about this. There's a whole new layer of celebrities that need bodyguards. So how many of these people are out live streaming? TikTokers, you know, YouTubers, you know where they are. If you saw Louis through his Manosphere documentary, you see that H.S.

[Danny]

tikitoki, who, by the way, in my view, is a kind of marauding presence. He's the one who apparently needs various bodyguards down in Puerto Benus Marbella, while he's going around sort of talking to women. On the street who have not asked him to come up to them.

[Marina Hyde]

So there's this whole layer of new people who want protecting. It's also a status thing that people are saying, oh, I want one for Saturday night. Because it looks like it's a way

[Danny]

of being the big I am. You know, there's my bodyguard. You don't need a bodyguard and I

[Marina Hyde]

don't want to see who you are. But there's a whole layer of people so always in the. And some of the bodyguards have become stars themselves, become part. Because if you're livestreaming, you know, you've just got to have this crew around you and they all become part of the content in the end. And that's happened with so many YouTubers. So I would say that there's now

[Danny]

a lot more bodyguards than there ever were. And clearly some of them just are wandering around hotel breakfasts just trying to look proactive. I can't think of any other explanation.

[Richard Osman]

That's weird. We don't know his name, right?

[Marina Hyde]

We do. He's called Pascal Duvier.

[Richard Osman]

Is he?

[Marina Hyde]

I should say he's actually come out

[Danny]

and conceded he wasn't working for her and he genuinely was just like freelance bodyguarding round the buff.

[Richard Osman]

Wow.

[Danny]

Not his exact words, but that's what he was doing. He was in a dining room in a hotel.

[Richard Osman]

Was he looking after someone else?

[Marina Hyde]

It's not. He didn't say that at all in the statement. He doesn't say anything about that. He just says, I wasn't anything to do with it. I wonder whether so much pressure has

[Danny]

been brought to bear on him and he's been told he'll never work in this industry again, but as I say, he will because so many people need them.

[Richard Osman]

Didn't someone describe him as the Forrest Gump of celebrity drama?

[Danny]

He's much more of an active agent in these moments, I think, because clearly the Paris thing was a huge failing with Kim Kardashian and here again, a tiny failing, as my children say. I didn't ask, what are you doing? I didn't ask you to. Bodyguard question from John Hunter here. I've never seen Titanic and I never will. I know how it ends. Whenever I say this out loud, people shout at me, what film and TV series have you never and will never

[Richard Osman]

see God, he's absolutely right and I am terrible with this. There's lots of info.

[Danny]

He's got masses.

[Richard Osman]

I haven't seen Titanic, for example, but again, I sort of feel like I have seen it because I seen like a million Clips like, if you, if you want to do a joke about Titanic, I'll. I'll know what it's about. They'll be on the prow of the ship. Or paint me like your French girls. I mean, all this stuff. Yeah, I know. I've heard all that stuff. Yeah, I speak Titanic. Funnily enough, I had a lot more blind spots for a married Ingrid because Ingrid would start talking to me about, you know, I think about the Sound of Music would be. And I'll go, oh, I've never seen the Sound of Music. And she'd be like, I'm sorry. I go, well, I've never seen the Sound of Music.

[Danny]

It's actually a deal breaker.

[Richard Osman]

You have never seen the Sound of Music? No. When would I have seen it?

[Danny]

Don't worry, in three hours you will have.

[Richard Osman]

Would be my point. Yeah, exactly. And she would say, well, like growing up, I say, well, did you watch the 1979 FA cup final when Alan Sunderland scored on the last minute? No. You didn't. Well, that's what I was doing. That's the stuff that I was watching anyway, so I listen. Spoiler alert. I have now seen the Sound of Music.

[Danny]

Culturally, she completes you as well as in so many other ways.

[Richard Osman]

Yes, absolutely does. And the Sound of Music, like, all these things, I thought, well, I know. Know this film I've seen because I've seen every single clip of it. And then you watch it, you go, oh, my God, this is amazing. This is why people like Sound of Music. Right? There's a reason that some of these iconic films are iconic, because it got all those clips you've seen, but in between it, you're like, oh, I didn't know this was gonna happen in this film. So I hadn't seen Sound of Music. Now I have. I hadn't seen Top Gun, which for Ingrid was, I think, was even worse. She put that right almost immediately. I think it was almost like third date we had to go see Top Gun.

[Danny]

And again, wow, what a great third date.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, it really was great. At a drive in and it was. So I saw that and again, I thought I'd seen all of it because I've seen so many clips of it and you get to see all the in between.

[Marina Hyde]

I see something different every time.

[Richard Osman]

Exactly. It's very, very multi layered. West side Story, I hadn't seen. Now I have seen it. Mary Poppins, I hadn't seen, Now I have seen it. So where are my actual blind spots now? I would say almost every single Disney movie I have not seen and will never see. It just doesn't speak to me. And when my kids were growing up,

[Marina Hyde]

yeah, that's what I wanted to ask.

[Richard Osman]

The Pixar stuff was all coming out, you know. So, you know, you had Monsters Inc. And you had Toy Story. You know, it was absolutely the golden age of that. So those were the things that, you know, I watched with the kids. And, you know, I'd never watched the Disney when I was growing up. I will never watch Disney at all. TV wise, this is. I've got an Ingrid one and a non Ingrid one. So I had never watched the Sopranos, but I had never watched the Sopranos for a different reason, which is not, oh God, I'm not interested in watching the Sopranos. I knew that I was incredibly excited to watch the Sopranos at some point, but I knew I wanted to watch it with somebody. And in my head a tiny bit of me was going, I wonder if that person will show up. And very, very early on, on a date with Ingrid, we're talking about tv. And I said, talk about the Sopranos. She goes, do you know what? I've never seen the Sopranos. And the reason I never seen it is I keep. I want to watch it with someone and I keep waiting for that person to turn up. And so we're both like, oh my

[Marina Hyde]

God, this is so romantic. I love it.

[Richard Osman]

And then we both agreed we wouldn't start watching it until after we got married, which is what we just said now. We are now watching. We are now watching the Sopranos. But it was absolutely that one of. We were saving it for the right person and we found it right there.

[Marina Hyde]

That's lovely. I know people who save things, thinking, when I'm really down, I'm gonna have the whole of that. Cause I know I'll love it. And I've got that as, you know, banked away.

[Danny]

And I know lots of people who do that.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. But a TV thing I've never seen, I suspect I never will now for reasons I can't really think of other than I think it would be a big investment now and the time has gone. Game of Thrones. Never seen it. Don't think I ever will see it. Have you got any?

[Marina Hyde]

But I'm trying to think what they are. They're not immediately obvious to me. This is different. But like him, just to go back

[Danny]

to John's point about, I never seen it and I know and I never will. I know how it ends, John. I'm not besmirching in this way, but it does slightly remind me of Michael Owen's Funny thing. Like Michael Owen won't watch films. Is that right?

[Marina Hyde]

You remind me of this.

[Danny]

Michael Owen won't watch films because it's just people pretending and it's not real.

[Richard Osman]

It didn't happen.

[Danny]

The footballer Michael Owen.

[Richard Osman]

So what's the point?

[Danny]

Yeah, it didn't happen. Yeah. Anyway, it slightly reminded me of that.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Titanic is not about the ending. It's about the craft. And by the craft, I don't mean the Titanic, because that sunk.

[Danny]

Yes.

[Richard Osman]

Remember?

[Danny]

Sorry, I was only thinking about the craft. Neve Campbell horror movie, which you probably haven't seen.

[Richard Osman]

I have not seen. I'm not sure.

[Danny]

Have you seen the Little Mix video for Black Magic, which is basically a pure read across little mix of like girls in high school and they're kind of nerds and then they drink a magic potion and then they. Everybody falls in love with them and they're kind of. They become the cool girls, which is.

[Richard Osman]

That's Neve Campbell's the Craft.

[Danny]

That's the craft. But done ripped off as a little mix. An homage by a little mix.

[Richard Osman]

If I were to watch one of them, I should probably just do that because it'd be great.

[Danny]

Just watch a Little Mix video.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. God, that's easier, isn't it? Anyway, thank you, John. On email, do send us in stuff that you have never watched, particularly if there's an unusual reason for it or you just. You refuse. Because quite often I always think that thing. If one person tells you to watch something, you're like, no. If five people tell you to watch something, you watch it. If 12 people tell you to watch something, I'm gonna watch this thing everyone's talking about. So it's that sweet spot. But do let us know if you have. So I would say that the Disney and Game of Thrones are my. My two big blind spots and I don't think. I don't think I would ever fix them.

[Marina Hyde]

Let's go to a break and then after our break we will get to those celebrity answers, which I'm excited for.

[Richard Osman]

Some big celebrities as well.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

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[Richard Osman]

Welcome back, everybody. Now, we promise you celebrities, who is the lucky listener who's had their question answered by celebrity Alex Booth? Your question has been answered by a big celebrity. Now, Alex Booth has this question. How do actors know when it's time to say goodbye to a show? Is it tough to know when to go out on a high? Literally, this sort of is a show about that, which is the Comeback, the Lisa Kudrow show that's currently on hbo. Thus someone who finished on, you know, the highest profile show of all time. So we just thought maybe rather than us answer it, Alex, we will get Lisa Kudrow to answer. And also. Cause it's about the comeback. Michael Patrick King, who's one of the writers on that show, who has interesting things to say about when writers want to leave shows as well. So Lisa and Michael here answering that

[Lisa Kudrow]

question, I mean, for some actors, yeah, they want to go out on a high. And, you know, on Friends, I guess, yeah, we went out when we were still, I think, number one or behind number two behind Survivor or something. But, yeah, I think also for some people, they feel like it's. The stories are getting strained, you know, and the writers also have a say in when it's done because they feel the stories are getting strained. So I know for us, there was an agreement. And on the Comeback, yeah, Michael and I, we kind of share a brain when it comes to this show.

[Michael Patrick King]

It's true. I mean, the thing is, it does come from the writing. First, Lisa could. I believe Lisa could play Valerie forever. But as writers, we created it, and we really like that. It's been kind of a dense experience, and we wouldn't want to water it down. It became the brand of the show that we come back and then go. And this time, we're not coming back. We're just here to enjoy the last comeback.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Lisa Kudrow]

Now it's a full piece, Right. It would have been weird if it was two seasons, and then, okay, that's not a thing. But a third makes it a trilogy and a whole piece.

[Michael Patrick King]

Also, I think it's important to, as writing, you leave Your main character, where you want her to be. And we're both very, very happy about where Valerie landed.

[Lisa Kudrow]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

Ah.

[Danny]

So, I mean, you know how much I love this show, the Comeback.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. That's your absolute favourite. Right?

[Danny]

So.

[Marina Hyde]

Right.

[Danny]

It is now a trilogy, it's really.

[Marina Hyde]

And the stuff about it coming from writers as well, because sometimes you're not in kind of lockstep as to when it's over. You know, I know when they came to do Succession, which was obviously at the absolute peak of everything, it was such a sort of huge and culturally, you know, celebrated show. And of course, they could have done more. And I remember, you know, Jesse talking about it, saying, you know, I started. Jesse Armstrong, who created it, saying, I started thinking, could we go around again? But actually I felt, no, we can't do this and then have a fifth season. We'll do. We'll finish it here. Because having talked it through, and it's really good when people just feel like they're not. They're not going to just flog it for the sake of it, because it's just this huge behemoth. Also, I know other people who have been. And I know that there are shows where actors, you see in the later series of it sometimes I wasn't quite sure what was happening in later series of something like Veep, where I was

[Danny]

thinking, I'm not sure that was your original character.

[Marina Hyde]

But actors want to do something different and they feel like they've done the same things many, many times.

[Richard Osman]

It's like, funnily enough, we're on season nine of the American Office at the moment, and Ed Helms character is completely different. You think, oh, I don't know about this, but I think Lisa Couldray's point is interesting. This. If you're an actor leaving a show or ending a show or a writer ending a show is two different things. As an actor, you are very, very visible on that. You know, you are literally. And you're giving of yourself emotionally all the time. And as an actor, you think, but I do want to do the next thing. I do want to do the next thing, and I don't want people to get bored with me. So that's an interesting place to be. But as a writer, this is a. Not always necessarily true, but quite often as a writer of a show, you have been working an awful lot longer and an awful lot harder on that show than an actor has, because an actor will come in and they work their socks off. But a writer has been doing this for years and years, and Years and years and years and will often understand the limitations of a character has been pushed to exactly where they can be pushed to, and they have to do something else. So I think usually if a show is a. Is a hit, there's always pressure on you to keep doing it. There's always pressure on you to keep taking the money. And especially in American tv, the money goes up and up and up and up and up. But good actors and good writers usually go, I've taken this as far as I'm going to take it. And you could tell with Michael Patrick King talking there, the understanding that as a writer, there was a story to be told. He felt it had been told. Lisa, as the actor feels it has been told as well. It doesn't matter what they offer you to do another series, it's like writing a book. I've got to the end of the book, let's close the book. You know, it's like Claudia and Tess leaving strictly in it.

[Marina Hyde]

You know, the dream is you do it together. And there's not some. Yeah, I think that's definitely the case.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, they do say never quit the hit, but I think. I think sometimes that's wrong. I think sometimes you have to just kind of go, you have to know when to leave the stage. Right, Right. How about a question, actually for you rather than for Lisa Kudrow? Is that all right?

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I wonder.

[Richard Osman]

What if people switch off.

[Danny]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

They go, I really like it better than me.

[Danny]

Trust me.

[Richard Osman]

Isabelle has a question for you. Last week we talked about McGuffins. Isabelle said, I love your discussion about McGuffins, but what are your favorite examples of Chekhov's gun in movies? Can you explain to people what Chekhov's gun is?

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, Chekhov's gun in screenwriting, movie writing is anything that's introduced and that you see any element, it's not just sort of there randomly. It's. It has a point. And that point is sort of paid off later.

[Richard Osman]

And it comes from originally the phrase Chekhov's gun. Chekhov said, you cannot have a gun on stage and have it not go off.

[Marina Hyde]

And it relates to the Seagull. Again, I'm not going to do masses

[Danny]

of spoilers throughout all of this, but.

[Richard Osman]

And so, you know, the point of that whole thing is if something is introduced in a film, a piece of information, a piece of backstory, an object, and it seems to bear no relation to anything that happens from that moment on at the end of the film, it will become important. So the idea would be never, ever Show a gun if it is not related to it's not going to be fired.

[Marina Hyde]

And in something like Shaun of the

[Danny]

Dead where it's a literal gun, the pub they go to all the time is called the Winchester and there's a Winchester rifle up above the bar. And then eventually that you will see that rifle get used.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. It's absolute basic tenet of any. If you interested at all in either watching or writing is if something crops up, if something is mentioned, if something is even alluded to, it will later be used. I mean that you. You don't waste anything. You can't just sort of go off on kind of flights of fancy. Anything you do has to sort of be drawn back in at some point. And checkhos gun is sort of. Is the term we use for that which is don't introduce something that then disappears.

[Marina Hyde]

I really love it when it's done brilliantly. So to think of top three was quite hard. I'm including.

[Richard Osman]

I mean I have to say Isabel doesn't ask for top three. It's interesting. I know exactly now you've been institutionalized. I've absolutely got to you. She's absolutely allowing you to be open ended about it. You've.

[Danny]

You're right. Well I have mentioned Short of the Dead.

[Marina Hyde]

I'm going to have to mention another. The next Edgar Wright and Simon Pegg and Nick Frost. All those guys Hot Fuzz where it's so. So many things it's ridiculous.

[Danny]

It's almost. It's a joke about it really. Every single little thing that you see at the start in or in Act 1 is paid off in Act 3.

[Marina Hyde]

Again, things I've watched recently which are some have top of my mind, I would say the pinboard in the Usual Suspects. I'll leave it at that. But I think ultimately I have to say because I love it so much. I think it's so brill. Back to the Future. The whole of Back to the Future which I watched again recently, it was a film that was so hard for them to get off the ground. They tried so many different ways of getting that film off the ground. It's directed by Bob Zemeckis and it's written by him and a guy called Bob Gale. And there were all these raunchy teen comedies at the times, kind of racy things and it wasn't like that at all. And anyway they managed to get it made. If you've got time, just go and watch the first scene again. Every single thing in that first scene before you even see a human you see someone on the news talking about the stolen. Not uranium, plutonium. There's so many things in the first scene before you've seen any human at all. Save the clock tower. All these things that happen. Everything is paid off. It is so satisfying. It is so much more sophisticated than

[Danny]

the raunchy teen comedies that were almost

[Marina Hyde]

preventing it being made. It is. And the way. And it's done in such a light touched way. And I remember watching it in cinemas and thinking, oh, that's so cool. And you knew you could watch it all fishing back together as a puzzle in such a beautiful way. And it feels so light touch.

[Danny]

Even though it's quite a complicated plot

[Marina Hyde]

to get people to understand those kind

[Danny]

of temporal loops and wormholes and all that sort of thing.

[Marina Hyde]

Even things like the family photos where he's fading out of them that, you know, that becomes. That's a sort of checkers card.

[Danny]

And it's also a TikTok on the whole, like, can I make all these other things work together in concert to save the. To save my family and save the film and save my existence?

[Marina Hyde]

I think it's absolutely brilliant that. And it's so accessible and so mainstream. And when you're watching it, you're not in any doubt that, like, oh, there was a point to that, someone saying, save the clock tower, handing the leaflet. All of it has a point and I love it. It's so fun and it's.

[Richard Osman]

It's just joyful, but it is Chekhov's gun is. Is the perfect thing. If you're watching things, you really want to understand how things are put together is, you know, like, you know, whenever someone sort of at the end is tied up by a villain, you think, how are they going to get out of this? And then suddenly a lasso comes in, he goes, oh, my God, they talked about going to radio school. Yeah, they literally talked about it in like. And I thought it was just a bit of conversation and stuff. It sort of actually spoils almost all movies when you. When you realize that every single thing is going to come back every. You think, of course that's good, they have to. You cannot leave a loop opened.

[Marina Hyde]

But no matter when it's done so lightly that you're not really aware of it happening and you suddenly. But also it feels impossible that all of those things could be paid off. And it feels impossible actually when you're watching the first, even three minutes of the first scene of Back to the Future, that all of those things can be completely integral to the plot.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. It's like how lovely it is. And it sort of shows you when it's set, and it shows you kind of how people get through the day. That, you know, Andy Dufresne, a poster of Rita Hayworth on his wall. You think, oh, that's cute. He's got a picture of Rita Hayworth. And, you know, it's not kind of. And then, oh, the poster has changed to Brigitte Bardot. And that just. It just shows that, you know, time is moving on. And, you know, anyone who's seen Shawshank Redemption, those. That is not what is happening there. They're sort of Chekhov's guns. But just those things where at the end where you think, well, how on earth has this happened? And you go, that thing they mentioned. Oh, my God. It was that thing that they mentioned ages ago. I've had so many screenwriters and writers with such a long WhatsApp argument this week about what a MacGuffin is, by the way.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, my God, don't talk to me about it. Yeah, I had to. I've had a tight five hours with Kieran.

[Richard Osman]

I've got a. Can I tell you that we found a form of words in the end that we all agreed with as to what a MacGuffin is. Oh, by the way. And everyone was talking about Kiss Me Deadly, which is that. Which is the Mickey Spillane movie, which has absolutely kind of the original golden suitcase thing. But the. Here's a definition of MacGuffin that we won't all. It was like the Kyoto Protocols, and we all went, okay, this is acceptable. The MacGuffin is the bit that explains the motivation, but doesn't need to be in and of itself explained. There we go. That's all we've got. I mean, we're now gonna have to spend the next week defining what a Chekhov's gun is.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes, I mean, I see. Alfred Hitchcock was not on your group.

[Richard Osman]

He was not.

[Danny]

If he'd been on your group, he would have had. And George Lucas would have said a different thing, too. Again, I'm sad he's not on your group.

[Richard Osman]

He's not on my group.

[Danny]

He could be on your group.

[Richard Osman]

Spielberg is, of course.

[Danny]

Okay, question about medical accuracy from Nadia.

[Marina Hyde]

What are the bonuses and negatives of a medical procedural TV show trying to be so realistic.

[Richard Osman]

Again, listen, it's a good question. And what are.

[Danny]

We know why she's asking it?

[Richard Osman]

Well, because literally, the single most realistic medical show of all time, probably the Pit, has just started on hbo. Max. So, Nadia, it's a really good question. We wanted to talk about it in relation to the Pit, but they thought, again, why would we talk about it? So who did we ask?

[Noah Wiley]

We set out to sort of make this a love letter to first responders to talk about the work that they do and that they've been doing, especially since COVID And we wanted that to

[Danny]

be

[Noah Wiley]

as honest a look as we possibly could make it. And we at one time had made a show that was the most accurate medical show of all time and didn't really want to travel, traveled road or touch hallowed ground. So we were looking to do something as different as we possibly could. So taking the music out and really focusing on. And just one day of a shift and really getting into the minutiae of what's happening in a hospital seemed like a really great opportunity. And I think audiences are appreciating the specificity of detail. The downside is that when you come off so much like a documentary, that

[Marina Hyde]

any

[Noah Wiley]

dramatic license you take or lapses in your storytelling become pronounced as critiques. And so we fall into this sort of gray area of like, it's not a documentary, but it's as realistic as we can make a television series. Sure, you're always bucking up against reality about these cases, but oftentimes it's that pushback that creates the diamond under the pressure. That's the dialogue that you arrive at. Because if you want two different opinions, ask two different doctors. And sometimes if you have three doctors on your writing staff and one says, that would never happen, the other one says, the breath, except for the time I did it. And then you finally have a scene, because you've got two points of view on a subject matter that's worth exploring.

[Marina Hyde]

And of course, the show he's talking

[Danny]

about before is er, which he also starred in, which is this amazing bloodline

[Marina Hyde]

between these two medical procedural shows.

[Richard Osman]

I love that. It's literally like being a patient and just saying, I am gonna need a second opinion.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. And how many of these things can

[Danny]

actually happen if you've got one guy who says, it's happened?

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, it is difficult on all of those things when you're writing them. And so many people, you know, are very, very particular in writing things and thinking, if it hasn't really happened, then I don't want it to be in my show. I. And there is definitely a case for that. However, I do think that people who just do not allow any license in any of these things just go and hang around in A E, if that's

[Danny]

what you Want to watch?

[Marina Hyde]

You have to allow some. And I never get really annoyed by. Even if someone's writing, say, there's been lots of things written about journalism over the years, of course. And you're watching a newspaper office, the people who like, go straight in line say that would never happen. It's like, okay, I'm so interested that

[Danny]

you now care about accuracy.

[Marina Hyde]

But that. No, but really, you see something set

[Danny]

in a tabloid and like all these

[Marina Hyde]

people, come on, say that would never happen. It's like, okay, come on, we'll do. You know, And I've worked at a tabloid, so be fair. I do think that I never bother sort of saying that because there has to be some.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Marina Hyde]

And you must feel in your books,

[Richard Osman]

it has to be. Exactly. You have to. Could it happen? Great. And if it could happen, what is the most interesting, what is the most funny, what is the most dramatic version of it happening? And that's what you try and do just on a sidebar. What a dude. Noah Wiley is so cool. Wow. What a career as well. And we've spoken about before, but the pit really is, is extraordinary. It's a, it's a weird one because we've had to wait so long for it in the uk, usually stuff comes out, but you know, they've been going crazy about it in America because they've

[Danny]

been waiting and waiting to launch HBO Max. They've been kind of keeping this thing back.

[Richard Osman]

Well, listen, that's work worked. So thank you, listeners. Thank you to our very, very good pal, Noah Wiley. Thank you to our, like, one of our very best mates, Lisa Kudrow, old pal of ours. No, but thank you so much for, for answering this. It's much appreciated. Please don't be disappointed listeners if you get a question read out and it's boring old me or Marina answering it. But we do like occasionally to have a few little surprises in there too,

[Danny]

to go to the experts.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, Right. We be back tomorrow for our members

[Danny]

with bonus episode, first of a series about the Spice Girl.

[Richard Osman]

So there's a. There's a lot in it.

[Danny]

There's a lot going on there.

[Richard Osman]

There's a lot in it. If you want to become a member, it's wrestlersentertainment.com you can sign up there, but otherwise we will see you next Tuesday.

[Marina Hyde]

See you next.

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Cute. Wait, wait.

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