The Pop Culture Moment That Broke Our Hearts

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Entertainment

Episode: The Pop Culture Moment That Broke Our Hearts
Date: April 15, 2026
Hosts: Richard Osman & Marina Hyde

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Episode Overview

In this Q&A edition, Richard Osman and Marina Hyde respond to listener questions about the inner workings of entertainment, industry mishaps, showbiz heartbreaks, and iconic television tropes. From the recent Wireless Festival controversy involving Kanye West to personal reflections on pop culture moments that left lasting emotional scars, Richard and Marina blend humor, insider knowledge, and candid sentimentality while pulling back the curtain on TV and film. This episode is a must-listen for those curious about the business of entertainment and the moments—both on and off screen—that shape our media landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Wireless Festival, Kanye West, and Sponsor Fallout

Timestamps: [02:06] – [07:54]

• Listener Question: Kat asks how companies like Pepsi and Diageo can withdraw from sponsoring Wireless Festival after Kanye West is signed as the headliner.
• Marina: Explains that most sponsorship contracts include a "morals clause" or a "reputational brand safety clause," allowing sponsors to distance themselves if an act threatens their brand image ([02:47]).
• Richard: It’s “absolute sense” that sponsors demand synergy with their events, since their money is on the line ([03:07]).
• Marina: Highlights the impact of viral outrage in today’s hyper-connected world, modern contracts are now much more flexible, featuring Material Adverse Change clauses ([05:18]).
• Both: Discuss how activism has evolved tactically—public pressure is now often aimed at sponsors, not just festival organizers ([06:17]).
• Richard on the Wireless Festival organisers:
  “Whoever made that decision is, is an idiot. I mean, it seems absolutely insane.” ([07:46])

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2. TV Presenter "Irreplaceability”—The Reality

Timestamps: [08:04] – [11:18]

• Susie's Follow-up Question: Are there TV shows centered around hosts who are truly irreplaceable?
• Richard: Relays a real response from Martin Lewis and his show's executive producer about the extensive contingency plans if he can’t present. Options range from airing contingency programming (e.g., ‘Dinner Dates’), broadcasting from his hospital bed, or rerunning old episodes ([09:36]–[10:54]).
• Memorable Quote:
  “Even Martin Lewis is not irreplaceable. Although he may have to be replaced by dinner dates.” – Richard ([10:54])

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3. Pop Culture Moments That Broke Our Hearts

Timestamps: [11:33] – [16:16]

• Listener Sarah asks: “Which pop culture moment broke your heart the most? Mine was when Geri left the Spice Girls.” ([11:41])
• Marina’s Heartbreaks:
  • TV: The cancellation of ‘Twin Peaks’ in 1991 ([11:48]).
  • Celebrity deaths: River Phoenix, Kurt Cobain, Amy Winehouse, George Michael.
  • Powerful fictional TV endings: ‘Blackadder Goes Forth’, ‘The Sopranos’, David Tennant and Matt Smith’s Doctor Who finales, Catherine Tate’s ‘Don’t make me go back’ arc in Doctor Who.
  • Line as Essence: On Doctor Who:
    “Don’t make me go back... is the whole show in five words.” ([12:52])
  • The most affecting: The finale of ‘Our Friends in the North’—the passage of time, loss, and the use of “Don’t Look Back in Anger” ([14:19]).
  • Memorable Quote:
    “The end of that show just is an absolute gut punch. And just that music over the credits... that song has never made more sense than played over the end credits of Our Friends in the North.” ([15:19])
• Richard’s Heartbreaks:
  • Personal loss: Terry Wogan’s death, and the emotional resonance of John Virgo’s passing and others ([13:36]).
  • On parasocial relationships:
    “But that’s, you know, that’s the joy of entertainment, that’s the joy of film and television and the things that we grow up with...” ([14:07])

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4. Behind the Scenes on ‘Sort Your Life Out’

Timestamps: [17:36] – [23:51]

• Listener Denise Tomlinson asks: “How many people work on Sort Your Life Out behind the scenes? Is it really possible to do all that in a week?” ([17:36])
• Richard: Explains with details from exec producer Charlotte Brooks. The process involves 15+ runners, a removals company, and a week’s worth of work ([19:22]). Producers log up to 400,000(!) items in a house, and everything is sorted by item, not room ([21:21]).
• Marina: Relates her personal battle with household cable clutter, drawing a humorous parallel ([19:51]).
• Memorable Detail: Up to 400 boxes of clutter, seven lorries per move, and a crew of up to 20 just to lay out a houseful of stuff in a day and a half ([21:21]).
• Insight about TV craft:
  “You have to leave room for the magic as well.” – Richard ([23:51])

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5. The ‘Red Shirt’ TV/Film Trope

Timestamps: [23:51] – [29:47]

• Listener Alex McDonald asks: What’s a red shirt character? Faves?
• Marina: Explains the term’s Star Trek origin—security crew in red shirts were regularly killed to demonstrate danger ([24:13]).
• Examples:
  • Steve Coogan’s surprise death in ‘Tropic Thunder’
  • Porkins (Red Six) in 'Star Wars: A New Hope'—a minor character with major fan lore
  • Bill Paxton’s Hudson from ‘Aliens’:
    “For me that’s the full red shirt arc and it’s perfect. And I love Bill Paxton in that movie.” ([28:27])
• Richard: On writing, sometimes the most touching deaths are of supporting characters that have made you care.

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6. Actors People Always Mix Up

Timestamps: [29:47] – [30:09]

• Richard: Playfully invites questions on the topic of famous people with interchangeable names or looks, using Bill Paxton/Bill Pullman as examples ([29:47]).

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Highlights & Notable Quotes

• On modern contracts and controversy:
  “Modern contract law basically anticipates kind of known unknown, you know, a controversy that could happen, and they’re much more flexible than they ever were in the past.” – Marina ([05:18])

• Impact of ‘Our Friends in the North’:
  “It’s all about loss and like, oh my God. Reckoning with youthful idealism and that song. I was like, oh my God, is this how it’s all going to end?” – Marina ([14:19])

• On the irrational attachment to household items:
  “Why do we keep what we keep? What does it mean?” – Richard, on the heart of ‘Sort Your Life Out’ ([20:24])

• On TV production magic:
  “You can’t produce that. ...You have to leave room for the magic as well.” – Richard ([23:51])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Kanye West & Wireless Festival Controversy: [02:06] – [07:54]
• Presenter Irreplaceability & Martin Lewis: [08:04] – [11:18]
• Pop Culture Heartbreaks: [11:33] – [16:16]
• Sort Your Life Out Production Secrets: [17:36] – [23:51]
• Red Shirt Trope Discussion: [23:51] – [29:47]
• The Bill Paxton/Bill Pullman Mix-Up: [29:47] – [30:09]

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Overall Tone

Friendly, witty, and candid—with warmth and repartee between Richard and Marina. Their mix of serious media insight and playful asides makes even deep dives into contract law and TV production both accessible and entertaining.

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Final Notes

The episode balances sharp industry commentary with emotional reminiscing, offering both behind-the-scenes answers and relatable pop culture nostalgia. Richard and Marina’s chemistry brings out both the joy and heartbreak of being a lover (and maker) of entertainment.

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For more, join The Rest Is Entertainment Plus for bonus content and ad-free listening.

Transcript

[A]

The rest is entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now they've looked at admin and decided it should behave much more like a game show.

[B]

When you provide your meter readings, they will give you a spin of a wheel which allows you to win prizes, allows you to win octo points which you can spend in the Shoptopus. Yeah, it's the gamifying of the boring bits of your admin. Now listen, you know how much I love Octopus Energy. The prizes, I'm going to say are not quite up to the standard of the Wheel of Fortune, the biggest ever prize on the Wheel of fortune. So over 1 million million. What feels more similar is some of the random prizes they'll get on the Wheel of Fortune. They've had ceramic Dalmatians. I saw one where you could win a Gucci calculator. You think, okay, that's two of my favorite things. There was an onyx bin.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

You can get £1,000 off your bill if you get the top prize, which is 800,000 octopoints. Thousand pound off your bill. Just on the spin of a wheel girl.

[A]

Winter is so last season and now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rest Is Entertainment Questions and Answers Edition. I'm Marina Hyde.

[B]

And I am Richard Osman. Hello, everyone. Hey, Marina.

[A]

Hello, Richard. How are you?

[B]

I'm really, really well. And we've got a lovely. I said a broad sweep of questions here. We've gone behind the scenes with people who've given us answers about shows that we love. But we're going to start with a topical one.

[A]

Let's get the pain out of the way early.

[B]

And something that I want to know the answer to. And I know you have some thoughts on it. It is about Kanye west and the question is from Kat. And Kat asks, I was reading this week that Pepsi and Diageo have dropped their sponsorship of Wireless Festival after they announced Kanye as the headline act. How does this work? What clauses would be included in contracts that allow sponsors to drop out and how would affect the funding of the festival? You think Wireless might have consulted with their sponsors before signing a headline act to avoid such mess? Or maybe this is the publicity they wanted.

[A]

Yeah, I mean you'd think, wouldn't you? Kat, when you wrote your question that was. You were correct. But we now know that the Wireless Festival is no longer happening.

[B]

Was that the policy they wanted?

[A]

Was that the. So I think we can answer that bit fairly. I think they didn't want to sort of self immolate, but they have. But yes, if your lawyer has done their job, then the contract should have something called a morals clause or a reputational brand safety clause which allows you as a sponsor to withdraw funding or to take your branding off it and distance yourself publicly.

[B]

Which makes, just makes absolute sense, isn't it? Because there has to be a synergy between the brand and what's happening and you have to have some control over that. Suddenly if the event does something crazy that you can just go.

[A]

To be quite clear, you're giving them money. There is some suggestion that lots of this deal was done over text message. I, I don't even know. As I say, the festival is no longer happening. So well done, guys. But if they bring you into disrepute by association or they cause public scandal or outrage or they conflict with your brand values in a sort of meaningful way, then you can, there's an off ramp for you to exit without.

[B]

Say, for example, one of the headline actors released a song called Harl Hitler.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, for example, as an extreme

[A]

example, if they'd done that.

[B]

Yeah. Or sold T shirts with swastikas on

[A]

and done like one stupid apology in a trade mag or wherever it was. I mean, no. And sometimes actually festivals and big live events will have effectively content approval will happen via the sponsors. And that's just, I'm afraid, the way of doing business.

[B]

But by the way, almost always it's sort of meaningless if you're going to have a festival, it's just people playing music. There's going to be very, very little that's going to upset the Pepsi codas of this world.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

In, you know, Coldplay.

[A]

But if you book, you know, anti Semitism's leading prerogator. I don't know then, but they should have realized because it happened at Coachella in 2022. And I think they. I think Coachella pivoted quickly enough and said, oh, okay, we won't have anything to do with this any. We'll get rid of him. Adidas obviously ended the Yeezy deal and they had, I mean, I think millions of unsold sneakers. Gap and Balenciaga cut ties. People have been doing this with him for a long time.

[B]

It seems that absurd misstep from wireless to think that, you know, even if Dan had been going through an episode and he was deeply ashamed and he understood what he did, this is. You don't come back yet.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You really have to do an awful lot more work than that in order to be, you know, headlining a massive festival three days in the middle of London.

[A]

He was the headliner every single night.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But as I say, yeah, if your lawyer has done the job, you should be able to walk away and not be in breach of the contract. The contract. Contract should contain effectively an escape hatch and most modern contracts. Because I was speaking to a contract lawyer about this, but actually because of the nature of like viral scandal and things can just blow up out of now, which they just didn't in the old days. They just didn't. And because of how social media has turbocharged everything, modern contract law basically anticipates kind of known unknown, you know, a controversy that could happen. And they're much more flexible than they ever were in the past. There's something called a material adverse change clause. So if it becomes less commercially viable the event, you just get out of it. But the one thing that this person said to me is that it very rarely goes to court because once this has happened, you don't want to make it even worse by. So they tend to settle quietly because the reputational harm is even bigger. This is why going for sponsors is a really is a big tactic these days and it is effective.

[B]

By which you mean activists.

[A]

Yeah, people who want. People who are angry at this.

[B]

Instead of complaining to wireless, you complain

[A]

to Pepsi and Diageo. And if you don't think they. Their phone was ringing off the hook and people were saying, why would you want to be associated. That is always roots up now and people do it all the time. So that has become a very, very big part of sort of activism really. And getting things stopped is by targeting the companies that sponsor. So if you're like, we've seen it

[B]

before with book festivals and things like that where people have, you know, big companies pulled out of book festivals because of, you know, being targeted by activists. This feels to me like a situation where it's, I mean, of course this was the right thing to do. It's.

[A]

But of course this was going to happen. So I can't understand how they couldn't possibly have foreseen this.

[B]

But if I was someone who was working at the Widers festival, if I'm a rigger or if I, you know, I've got a concession stand or something like that, I'd be, I'd be suing the wireless people as well. Because this is, this is.

[A]

So it's such a dumb decision to book him that you've put everyone out of work that they were expecting that might be a big part of their income stream.

[B]

And it's again, another. We've talked a couple of times recently about imagining, imagining a meeting. And you know, there's a, there's, there's a wireless meeting at some point where a group of people all sat around and say, what do we think? Has he served his time? He does seem contrite and I don't think he was. Well, and it is Kanye. And that nobody at that meeting just said, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's, you know what, let's for a couple of years just book somebody else.

[A]

You deserve not to be having your festival. But I'm sorry for all the people who work there.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Derived income from it because it's, Whoever made that decision is, is an idiot.

[B]

I mean, it seems absolutely insane. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay. Now, Richard, we had a question last week from Susie about, based on the Scott Mills story about depping about replacing presenters at the last minute. And I believe you wanted to do a follow up on that.

[B]

I did because I'd been thinking about it, Susie, because we talked about that. Everyone is replaceable was essentially what we were saying. And I was trying to think, was that the case? And I was thinking about Graham Norton. But even I think If Graham Norton, Mr. Weak Claudia, came in and funnily enough, Graham started his whole career by replacing Jack Doherty on his Channel 5 show again with Jonathan Ross. What I was trying to think of is those shows which are weekly and as live and are built entirely around the personality of the presenter. And I couldn't think of one. And then I did think of one, which is the Martin Lewis Money show, which is one of those shows which has very, very quietly become an enormous hit. It's live, it's Martin Lewis, you know, he's so well respected by everybody. So I thought, well, I wonder how would they deal with Martin Lewis not being well? I wondered if he was the exception to prove the rule. So I asked Martin Lewis. Martin Lewis said, do you know what he said? I was listening to the podcast and I thought exactly the same thing.

[A]

I thought, I am indispensable.

[B]

He didn't say that, to be fair, but he said, I want. I wonder if they do have a plan. So he very, very kindly asked his producer. He said, I've never thought about this, but what happens if I'm ill? And so can I. This is. Susie, you've gone too far.

[A]

He's doing a health show as well. If he's never worried about being ill, he should also do a health.

[B]

I never missed an episode of Pointless in 2000 episodes. I mean, a lot of times you don't miss.

[A]

You're a professional. Because of Dr. Theater.

[B]

Because of Dr. Theater. Do you mean cocaine? Because I always call it Dr. Showbiz and I always think that. I think that sounds like a code word, but it's not.

[A]

No, it's not cocaine. It's the thing that the adrenaline, the whatever, that just seems to carry people through, including if they have a sort of norovirus during a live theater performance, they're somehow able to get through. We've talked about it before and previous episodes.

[B]

So, you know, Martin Lewis said, yes, I wondered if my show is an exception. We've long discussed what would happen if I suddenly wasn't well enough. And we've never really found a solution. Let me check with my exec, which she did, and she says, this is. This is. It's almost like, you know, when the Queen Mother died. There is a detailed business continuity plan for the Martin Lewis Money show, Live one. If Martin had an accident, we would go to a contingency show. Network has a contingency program at all times ready to go. For a long time, it was dinner dates. Two, if it were a case of transport, broken leg or quarantine. And Martin's up for doing it, as he almost certainly would be. He's worked through illness a number of times. We would do it from wherever he is, hospital bed, with Jeanette running the studio, much like we did it with him from home during the pandemic. Three, if Martin were ill and we had a day or so notice, I'd look at an episode that was still editorially valid, could be rerun, that is council tax, cost cutting and strap it, that it was a repeat and edit Accordingly, now to a new time slot. So there you go. Even Martin Lewis is not irreplaceable. Although he may have to be replaced by dinner dates.

[A]

Yeah, there's not a sort of, you know, Deputy Martin Lewis anywhere out there.

[B]

Couldn't be. Right.

[A]

No.

[B]

Apart from Jeanette, of course. And Claire ends that message with hope. That's useful, Claire. It certainly is.

[A]

More than useful.

[B]

It is more than useful.

[A]

And I like knowing. Just like I did with the plan for the death of the Queen. I like knowing what would happen should he be unable to go on in any format, including hospital bed.

[B]

Nothing in stocks, Lewis.

[A]

Nothing.

[B]

Marina, a question for you from Sarah. We've really slipped into this thing of not having surnames again. It's I is lax.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

We've got to be.

[A]

You'll allow this one or.

[B]

Well, I saw. Ah, I guess so. But it's.

[A]

Come on because I've thought about this one and this is one I might genuinely cry in. So I really. Yeah, it's really. Well, ask the question because I know what it is.

[B]

Sarah, your question is, which pop culture moment broke your heart the most? I still have memories of that fateful day when Jerry left the Spice Girls.

[A]

Well, I thought about this in advance, and some of these I could really actually cry. But the cancellation of Twin Peaks in 1991 was a heartbreaker for me. That's sort of like. Because I've talked about it on the show before, just how it completely opened my mind to a different sort of world. And it felt like something so strange and wonderful on television. And I absolutely loved it. I thought a lot about. When I was thinking about this, I thought a lot about deaths. And I'm definitely not ranking any of these things because I'm not exactly going to rank people's deaths, but the death of River Phoenix, the death of Kurt Cobain, the death of Amy Winehouse, and the death of George Michael, those really. I found those. I mean, there were so many that kind of get you, but obviously all of those were untimely. And I just felt those. Those really kind of grabbed me. But in fictional things, I thought, almost felt I found more affecting in some ways, all just have stayed with me. And it's often the endings of things and I'm not gonna do any spoilers, so I'm just. I think I can do it without spoilers. The end of Black goes forth.

[B]

Yeah, I think that that will be the vote of a lot of people at home.

[A]

Yeah. The end of the Sopranos. Funnily enough, there's a Lot from Doctor who that I in. I cried whilst watching the end of maybe David Tennant and Matt Smith as Doctors, I've found really emotional. But there's an episode where Catherine Tate, it's sort of the end of her particular arc, and she says, don't make me go back. And there's sometimes where there's a line where that distills a whole show. And you had that in something like succession with I love you, but you're not serious people. That's the whole show in one line. And don't make me go back for me is on Doctor who, the sort of wonder and companionship, but also the tragedy and loneliness that are involved in that show. So it's just, you know, it's five words and it's sort of the whole show.

[B]

And funnily enough, again, no spoilers, but John Pointing and Big Boys as well. There's a line in that which has a similar effect. The death scene, I think. Yeah. I felt. Only. I think because of my particular upbringing and the things I grew up loving, I felt, you know, when Terry Wogan passed away, that was a big one for me. It's fascinating. The thing is, it's always. And this is this. This will sound even more ridiculous, but when John Virgo died recently, that was like.

[A]

And he got an ultra news alert. And I knew you. I knew. Yeah, we exchanged on that because I knew.

[B]

But that's, you know, that's the joy of entertainment, that's the joy of film and television and the things that we grow up with is, you know, people. You know, we talk about the ridiculousness of parasocial relationships, but those are also important.

[A]

Can I say my. Actually the one that I think gets me the most every time, and it's a. It's not a forgotten television series at all, but lots of our much younger audience will not know about it. There was a TV series called Our Friends in the north, which was written by Peter Flannery. It's an absolute masterpiece. An absolute masterpiece. I think it's 91 hours, the end of that. Even talking about this. I could actually cry in this. It's over. The final credits. Don't Look Back In Anger plays and it's a contemporary song and it's taken us from the 60s, this show. The time that it aired was when I was like the age of the characters in the very first episode and by the time, three decades on. And I just remember thinking it's all about loss and like, oh, my God. Reckoning with youthful idealism and that song. And I was like, oh, my God, is this how it's all going to end? Because I was like the age of characters when I watched that show in the first episode. The end of that show just is an absolute gut punch. And just that music over the credits. They had a different song over the credits, as I remember this, each one. But suddenly that song has never made more perfect sense than played over the end credits of Our Friends in the North.

[B]

And if people haven't watched Our Friends in the north, really first, you really, really recommend it. But we spoke on our Tuesday episode about Euphoria and about Skins, which are shows where the made people much more famous than they were. And that show, you had a future James Bond, Daniel Craig, you had a future Doctor who, Christopher Eccleston, you had the incredible Gina McKee, you had Mark Strong, who people didn't know, particularly there, who's in everything. And that was just like a TV ensemble cast.

[A]

That's the quartet that we follow through

[B]

those decades, Our Friends in the North. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

What a got punch.

[B]

Anyway, what a lovely question. And Sarah mentions Jerry with the Spice Girls, which is what we're doing our bonus episodes on at the moment. And we've got a new one coming out this week.

[A]

Jerry's departure is, I believe, pending.

[B]

It is pending. So, Sarah, listen, that's a trigger warning for you. Shall we go to some adverts?

[A]

Let's.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

I like the idea of someone missing a train because they were petting a dog.

[A]

Well, it's involving, isn't it?

[B]

Isn't it?

[A]

I'm engrossed. Welcome back, everybody. Now, Richard, after your very moving hymn to Sort yout Life out last week, we have a Sort your life out related question from Denise Tomlinson.

[B]

Surname. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you for the surname as well, Denise. She says how many people work on Sort your life out behind the scenes? I simply don't believe all of that can be achieved in a single week, is it, by an army of runners.

[B]

Thank you, Denise. So if people don't know that show, and I really, really do recommend it, there is a house which is overcrowded, cluttered, what have you. Everything in the house is moved out in boxes. Everything. Every single item. Every single item in that house is then put in a warehouse. All the CDs will be in one pile, all the books will be in one pile, all the clothes will be in one pile. Like everything is sort of laid out in an enormous warehouse. There's then a few days where the householders go through everything and work out what they need to keep. In the meantime, work has been done on the house and then the stuff gets moved back in. That's the, the basic format. So there is a lot going on in that. And I think Denise is quite right, it doesn't feel like that the, the four people on screen would be able to do all of it. So I spoke to Charlotte Brooks, who's the exec producer of Sort your Life Out. I might have to read some of this off the paper because he's given a very, very good, detailed reply. And if you like, sort your life out, you will love this. Charlotte says. So this show is over seven days, essentially. They've got a week to do this whole thing. The seven day turnaround is genuine before the process begins. The team conducts interviews and films that before shots. But the house is left exactly as it is. Families are explicitly told not to tidy up. That's always the question you have. They go, is this been made worse? This has been made better. Charlotte says, it's not been made worse, it's not been made better. It definitely hasn't been made worse either. They don't go in and deliberately mess things up as well. So the packing is done by the family alongside the on screen talent. That's Dilly, Rob, Ewan and Stacey with. With comma. With around 15 runners and. And the removals company handling the heavy lifting.

[A]

Because I think it's fair to say they have a lot of stuff.

[B]

Oh, there is a lot of stuff.

[A]

It's kind of the point of the show.

[B]

And these four are also making a TV show as well and having to do pieces to camera. So it's. It's. Yeah, you need a lot of. If anyone has moved house, you need a lot of people. Right. Unlike a normal house move, everything is packed by item type rather than by room. So all the books together, all the chargers together, all the toothbrushes together. This makes the warehouse layout possible. That's good. Imagine if you had to move house by item rather than by room. That would be insane.

[A]

I put all of our cables in one. I wanna say box, but of course, it was like about five boxes. And I said to Kieran, I want you to sit down with me because this is so abnormal. And he was like, but I need all these cables. I was like, you just don't need nine scart leads. What even is one anymore? You don't need any of these. It was. So I tried to do, just on cables, a sort your life. And you know what? We rationalized it down to about 100 cables, I would say, one of which we'll ever touch again. But at least we got rid of some of the emotional baggage. Hanging him down, maybe.

[B]

And by the way, if you haven't seen Sort yout Life out, that is a precis of it in about 10 seconds. It's exactly that. Why do we keep what we keep? What does it mean? Charlotte then says, unpacking and laying out the warehouse takes a team of roughly 20 people, five or six producers plus the runners, about a day and a half. So there's an amazing shot or one of the really great shots in. In Sort yout Life out is when you see everything in their house just laid out. Takes a day and a half to do that.

[A]

I did about four hours on the cables, trust me, so I know the feeling.

[B]

Cables is the worst thing you can put together because they just. They tie. They like, even, like one cable ties itself up. That's a crazy.

[A]

I bought some cable for a nice present to try and make it go better. I bought some nice cable ties that we could wrap the ones that we kept with.

[B]

I think, though, if you grew up without technology, now there is a lot. The temptation is never to throw a cable away because you never really know which is which. So I'm with Kieran on this one.

[A]

Yeah. I always say that you're saving this for a presidential archive, as on so much else.

[B]

Yes. Kieran's Library. The current record on Sort yout Life out is 400 boxes of clutter across seven lorries. Wow. The production tries to find a warehouse within 15 minutes of the family's home, though the furthest they've managed is about 90 minutes away. So you've got to get like an empty warehouse. Yeah, that's a good call to get if you're a warehouse owner that suddenly sort your life out. Coming in for a week, producers aren't just unpacking, they're identifying meaningful story items and logging where they sit in the warehouse. So the team that talks to the families extensively beforehand about specific objects, Teddy Bear say they can then be tracked from the initial snoop. The initial snoop through the warehouse to the final renovation. This can't be right. But Charlotte says it's right and everything else she says is right. With up to around 400,000 items in an average home, without that worker, it'd be seemed completely random to the viewer. There can't be 400,000 items in a home.

[A]

God. I mean, presumably there can be. They would know 40,000.

[B]

Listen, I'm going to go back for a further.

[A]

These people. The show is amazing.

[B]

Listen, it is amazing. Families are asked to remove anything super valuable before the process starts. Anything private or confidential found during packing, including adult accessories, which they find a lot of, are placed discreetly in a sealed box and returned off camera. That's the other question people always ask, do they ever find? And the answer is yes, they do.

[A]

They should have an after hours version.

[B]

They should do after filming. Discarded items are stored for about six days as a grace period. That's interesting. So when they've agreed to get rid of stuff, they get stalled for six days. Families often need a week to adjust to the reorganized home and the producers give them a tour and they remain available by phone to help them find anything. Firstly, anything that they kept that they've lost, but also anything they just agree to throw away, they can bring back within that six day grace period. Selling everything is the family's responsibility. The show may help set up, say a vintage account or suggest a car boot sale, but it's not their job to shift the stuff. We also asked Charlotte about Stacey. She's such a brilliant presenter on that show and she says Stacey's DNA is all over the show. Her total empathy, zero judgment and genuine obsession with crafting an organization. Her tap to tidy Instagram videos made her a natural fit. Her life experience as a mother of five and a blended family means she walks into every home believing it could be Hers. You can't produce that. Thank you, Charlotte. And I mean, listen, as a testament to the producer's craft, you can see how much is produced on that show and the incredible work that goes into it to give us those wonderful moments, but that the best producers in the world also will always end with. And you can't produce that because there is. There's also the ma. You have to leave room for the magic as well.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

What a masterclass. I have a question for you now from Alex McDonald. Surname. Thank you, Alex. Alex says you've recently discussed MacGuffins and Chekhov's gun. I wonder if you can discuss red shirt characters in films. What are the origins of the term and what are some of your favorite red shirt characters? We're really going through all the MacGuffins. Chekhov's gun.

[A]

Red shirts comes from the original Star Trek. And they. What it means is expendable characters who end up dying to sort of show you how dangerous the situation is.

[B]

And the red shirt came from. Whenever they would. They beamed down to another planet, they'd always. There'd be Kirk, there'd be Spock, but there'd also always just be some junior kind of crew member in a red shirt.

[A]

Red shirts. Security personnel rank wore red shirts. And within Starfleet. And so those people would often die, actually. Yeah. Someone did an audit, I think, and actually found there's fewer red shirts than died than you think. Gold shirts, that's command line. Quite a few of them died. And blue, which was famously science and medical, racked up quite a lot of casualties as well. As I said, what they're doing is they're showing. The purpose of them in a narrative is to show you how dangerous the situation could be. What are the big bads that you're facing? What's their method of dispatch? And so you're supposed to think, oh, my God, but that could happen to our leading characters too.

[B]

Exactly. But without it having to happen to your leading character.

[A]

And it might happen to bank security or it might happen to whatever. I. Sorry, I keep mentioning Kieran in this, but Kieran, who grew up with his father watching films and who would always say, oh, my God, end of Act 1 at a certain moment. So he had that sort of structural sense of it. Kieran always does this when watching TV or watching a movie. He'll be like, oh, my God, it's tickets for him. If someone comes in and is like, really sweet and it's got a kid brother, they just want to get back home to but is not one of the main characters. Within two seconds, Kieran will have said to our children his tickets for him. I think it's quite an Australian expression. His father. Australia, you know, punching your ticket, getting whatever. Meaning you know this person's gonna die in a minute and yes, thank you, we know. Anyway, I think slightly the ones I'm gonna. It's sort of if they just do. Just get shot the minute they get off the landing craft, then they're such a sort of low level henchmen that we can't even remember them. So for me, when you slightly care, you care about them.

[B]

So that's not a red shirt character. Someone just in the background getting shot. It is.

[A]

Well, they sometimes were in the Star Trek thing just to show you, but.

[B]

But it's not. It's usually someone who's had a couple of lines or the beginnings of a character. Something that's kind of hinted at the character arc. You think, oh, maybe this person's gonna stick around.

[A]

I'll do three. I'm glad you haven't asked me them in order, although I think I do have a favourite.

[B]

But will you do your favourite last?

[A]

Yes, I will do my favourite last.

[B]

Were you going to.

[A]

Yes, I was actually on this occasion.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

I'm learning real fast here.

[B]

I mean, I wouldn't say real fast, but I'll agree with learning.

[A]

Okay. I just find it funny when the Steve Coogan character in Tropic Thunder steps on one of his own landmines. Mostly because Steve Coogan is actually famous. So making him a bit of a red shirt is funny and it's really unexpected. And he's not necessarily. You wouldn't necessarily say it's tickets for you, mate.

[B]

Yeah, that's a real subset by the way, is famous people who becomes. Because the one thing you know when a famous person's in it is they're sticking around throughout the whole thing.

[A]

Or else they're the murderer or.

[B]

Yes, yeah, exactly. But occasionally you know that someone has gone into a show as a favor to a mate and they've just done a day and they've gone, oh yeah, of course I do. The character steps on a landmine. Yeah, yeah, I'll do that. Don't worry.

[A]

So Steve Coogan is the director in Tropic Thunder. That that happens to in a way because of the nature and the origin. The red shirt trope. I slightly feel like you have deploy somewhere. There's kind of a quasi military or a land or something to it to me. And so I Would say there's a guy called Pawkins in Star A New Hope. And this entire law has built out around this character. By the way. He's the guy, he's one of the X Wing pilots, he's Red six. And he's. And they get rid of some sort of, you know, deflection thing on the Death Star. But then he, he gets kind of taken out. But he allows Luke Skywalker a shot at the Ventil. So there is a whole sort of point to him. But this it being Star wars, this entire. And he was. The actor who played him actually was American but lived in the uk. But this enormous lore has built up around this particular character. So I find that quite interesting. And then my favorite has to be. Cause I think it just ticks. Every red shirt box is Bill Paxton as Hudson in Aliens. For me it's so crucial. You know, he's about to leave the service, he wants to set up a bar, you know, all of that stuff. He's really funny, he has lots of good luck. So you warmed him. But then he does have a sort of breakdown and he has a very. He has an iconic line, Game over man. And then there's a moment where he is running a single handed resistance. You know, I'll hold him off as long as. Effectively he doesn't say this, but I'll hold them off as long as I can. So you know, it's a form of sacrifice. And then a drone takes him. But he is posthumously decorated. So for me that's the full red shirt arc and it's perfect. And I love Bill Paxton in that movie. And he's the sort of. You can see why he became such a fan favorite favorite. And it's a sort of iconic movie. So I'll put up, I'll say Hudson from Aliens.

[B]

But yes, and it's another great trope, the red shirt. Yes. I have in books all the time where I'm thinking about characters, you know, that they see. You know, as I say, you never quite know who's going to be killed or I don't when I start writing a book. And you know, you'll have people and some people, you love them so much you think, oh no, I want to bring you back for another book. And some people go, I really love you. Which means I think it would be quite moving if we kill you. And sometimes people are just shoot the puppy. And yeah, shoot the puppy. And that's my career. Do you remember, by the way? And this is something if you want like a free shot of getting a question on this podcast. Remember when Bill Paxton and Bill Pullman sort of became famous at the same time and became absolutely interchangeable? In my mind at least. I'd love a question on people who. You. Who always get mixed up for each other.

[A]

Oh, that's a good one. Yeah.

[B]

Yes, because there are people, people with either similar names or similar looks who get mixed up for each other.

[A]

There's some synapt malfunction at one point and then after, you always think the other one has the other's career.

[B]

Yes, exactly that. If you want to word that in a neat way. And by the way, if you want to include your surname, then that might be a good way of getting on the podcast.

[A]

The rest is entertainment. Goalhanger.com is, I think, all I need to say now.

[B]

Yeah. There we go. Thank you so much, everyone. Thank you, Marina.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

As we've said, our Spice Girls special series is continuing tomorrow for our members. Do feel free to join up for that if you wish to, ad free listening and all of that, but you don't have to. And if you don't, then we'll see you all next Tuesday.

[A]

See you next Tuesday.