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- [00:01]
A
The rest is entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now, fan mail is one of entertainment's strangest bargains. You send total devotion one way and the understanding that nothing may come back.
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B
Certainly in our day, you would write to a film star or a singer. I wrote to Howard Jones. And maybe three months later a sort of signed photo comes back that's clearly pro forma. You know that, you know, Howard's never
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A
really looked at Steve Martin used to have the proforma sort of thing which would just leave blanks like insert like small detail to make a joke about how. How completely impersonal his personal reply to you was. And it was just like a standard thing.
- [00:37]
B
Impersonal is interesting. That's why we're talking about this. Because with Octopus Energy, you always can reply to their emails. And not only can you reply to them, they will go to the same small group of people who always deal with you. That's like unbelievable.
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A
It's almost unprecedented that a company you're giving your money to will actually respond to.
- [00:53]
B
You are contemptible in some way.
- [00:56]
A
Your call has been forwarded to voicemail. Hi, this is Zoe Deutch and Nick Robinson. Our brand new movie Voicemails for Isabel
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B
is all about those little moments that
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A
feel like the universe is looking out, feeling homesick. Then your sister calls, hearing that perfect song exactly when you need it.
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B
Please stay.
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A
Sometimes life rigs things in our favor, like learning about your new favorite rom com.
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B
Voicemails for Isabel, Only on Netflix.
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A
June 19th. Good sleep is everything. That's why Ollie's science bag support is
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B
made with a blend of melatonin and
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A
L theanine for both kiddos and grownup. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help your racing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie Sleep solutions for the whole family@ollie.com that's O L L Y dot com. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina. Hi.
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B
And me, Richard Osborne. Hello, everyone. Hi, Marina.
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A
How are you, Richard?
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B
I'm all right. We had a fun week. We interviewed Steven Spielberg, didn't we?
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A
It was a huge honor and very
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B
exciting for him too, I think.
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A
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, he didn't say it, but I think he thought it.
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B
I think he thought it. Our members can hear that tomorrow. Everyone else can hear that on Thursday. There's lots of fun. Great questions from our listeners as well.
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A
I have been signing tippin sheets for my book.
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B
Talk us through what a tip in
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A
sheet is a Tip in sheet is if you get a special. So I've got a book coming out at the end of September. What's it called? I wasn't going to forget to say it. It's called what a Time to Be Alive. It's a collection of min columns and it's a tip. And sheet is when you get a signed edition. You can actually get boxes of the paper. If you're the author, you get boxes of front pages and then you sign them and then you put them all back in the box. It sends you insane. Because I've had to do about seven and a half thousand or something of them, I have to say. And this is going to sound like it's sponsored content. It's not. The only thing that has kept me sane is listening to masses of episodes of the Book club. I literally love the book club. If you're not listening to the book club with Dominic Sambrook and Tabby Sarrit, I strongly recommend. And by the way, I have to
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B
be signing books when you listen to it.
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A
No. And by the way, I'm sure they would say you don't even need to have read the books. I actually have read the books, but you don't need to have read the books. And I absolutely. They are terrific. I mean, Dominic knows I love him, but Tabby is absolutely excellent. And I, I've. It's genuinely kept me saying I went mad the last time I did a book and I did these in silence. These tipping.
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B
Signing tippings are. Yeah, there's, there's, there's something about them, that's for sure. But listen, we now want to keep other people entertained while they're doing something mundane. Perhaps people are signing books, I don't know. But whatever else they're doing, what are we talking about this week?
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A
Right, we're going to be talking.
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B
We'll have fun. This week.
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A
We're talking about the Stephen Bartlett discourse. There's been an explosion in the world of podcasting after a passing remark upon Stephen Bartlett's podcast. Lots of people have piled in and we're about to join them.
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B
Yes, well, I'm going to do a deeper dive on who Stephen Bartlett is and what that means.
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A
I wish to speak only facetiously about this subject. So that's. I'm glad someone's going to take seriously.
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B
I'm going to be talking seriously.
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A
Okay?
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B
But that's how we always do it. You know me, I take things very seriously.
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A
We are also doing a field guide to celebrity weddings following the Italian union of Dua Lipa and Callum Turner this weekend in Sicily. So we'll be talking about, you know, I will be giving you a proper field guide to how you do a celebrity destination wedding.
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B
And we're also talking about 60 Minutes, which is America's first flagship current affairs show and it's currently in absolute crisis. Is it for political reasons? I mean, we shall find out. Right, shall we start with Stephen Bartlett?
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A
Yeah. Business idea. A device that stops you acting like a twat. I would love to pitch that device to Stephen Bartlett on Dragons Den. Richard. I would love to. I would say that people, over the last week, you may or may not have felt like a great disturbance in the podcast universe, as if millions of voices screamed out in pain, but then weren't silent. I'm getting ahead of myself. What has actually happened is that Steven Bartlett on his podcast said, diary of a CEO. Diary of a CEO. I'm going to do the full quote. I had a couple of glasses of wine, didn't get drunk. It ruined three days of my life because of the domino effect that it caused. It meant that I got worse sleep that night. I ate more poorly the next day because my dopamine system or the cortisol system.
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B
That's what they mean by the domino effect. Of course, you immediate order of dominoes.
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A
Exactly. I ate more poorly the next day because my dopamine system or the cortisol system or whatever was all messed up. Then I podcasted worse. I don't think you use that as a verb. And I didn't go to the gym the day after. And I could track all of this on my whoop. Hashtag ad, hashtag sponsor, investor, whatever, and
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B
say the word again. Whoop.
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A
Whoop. I mean, you spell it W, H, O, O, P. And what is it? It's. It's. I mean, it's one of these health tracker things. I'm not going to look into it any further than that. Literally. I literally couldn't be bothered to look up what it was. It's self optimization devices. I slightly felt like you've had two glasses of wine. Buck up, Steven. It's not going down in mine, is it? These are the good problems to have, but it has. This thing has sparked a flood of interventions across the podcasting sphere. Pushback, really, but content mainly. We've heard from Greg James, Paloma Faith, Vogue Williams, Fern Cotton, Joanne McNally. And now, as will ideally not have escaped our own podcast listeners, we've heard from us on it.
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B
Well, from you, I have.
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A
Come on, then.
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B
I've yet to say A thing. Well, no, talk to me about Zafar.
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A
Is this, Is this just a way for him to mention his tracker?
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B
Well, what I think is this. We're only talking about at all because I thought. I think it's. I think people find him interesting as a figure. I think people are not quite sure where he came from, people who are aware that he exists. If you want to look up Stephen Bartlett, pretty much every single article you read about Stephen Bartlett is headlined, is this the end for Stephen Bartlett? Is this the downfall of a CEO? You know, the rise and fall of Stephen Bartlett? Every single article is essentially wishing him ill, is essentially saying, this guy, we don't know where he came from. He certainly didn't come through our conventional media routes. And yet he seems to have for a very long time pretended to be unbelievably rich and via the medium of doing that, has become unbelievably rich, which seems to be unforgivable for almost anyone. We'll talk a little bit more about him because Diary of a CEO did start sort of talking to businessy people.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Then started to be a slightly more philosophical, I think, for, for his own health and well being, as the way I read it, and now has gone into the world of wellness.
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A
It is massive. We should say it's one of the biggest podcasts in the country.
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B
It's one of the biggest podcasts in the world. In the world.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I mean, it's probably, if we have not, not in terms of the politics, but if we have a Joe Rogan in the uk, it is Stephen Bartlett. Diary of a CEO started before lots of other people started. He built it and built it and built it. He's an incredible marketeer. I'm an insanely good marketer, gets incredible guests. But as I say, he's. He's now into that wellness industry and he's, you know, there's been also, you know, various kind of complaints upheld against him. You know, he would, you know, he would advertise Huel and he would advertise Zoe, you know, which is that medical app, and not mention that he was financially involved in both of those companies, that he was. But I think that if you look at where he came from, I think it drives people insane. And by the way, all of this is caveated with the fact that, you know me, I always give people the benefit of the doubt unless I know for a fact that, I mean, I just can't help myself. That's how I've always been. And it's usually served me Well, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I've met him, I've been on this podcast, which we'll talk about that later.
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A
I'd like to hear that. I don't know why I haven't heard that episode, but I need to hear this week.
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B
Because you listen to it a lot.
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A
I listen to you a lot and I like listening to things that you're on. But I feel like I should be a completist with your work. No, I don't listen to Dario Versio.
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B
So Stephen Bartlett, born in Gaboron, grew up in Plymouth, I think, but low income household, goes up to Manchester Metropolitan University, leaves after a term in 2014, sets up a company called the Social Chain with a guy called Don McGregor, who. Don McGregor was sort of the kind of stage sensible one and Stephen Bartlett was the salesperson and Social Chain was one of those companies. If you think back to 2015, 2014, all the big companies in the world understood how they did their business, but didn't really understand digital. And what Stephen BARKER and Don McGregor did said, look, here's a way that you can connect to a completely new audience. And you know, it wasn't rocket science, it just they were natives and sort of understood the audience in a way that different people didn't, you know, and they worked for Microsoft and Huawei and Universal, you know, they had big contracts, good contracts, built up this thing. Social Chain. Stephen Bartlett, right from the beginning was the front man of the thing. You know, I think he understood very, very early on that whatever company he's building, the most valuable thing he can do is build his own brand. That's the thing that he really, really understood. The company gets sold, eventually gets sold for, or at some point it's worth 600 million, gets sold I think for 300 million. But actually the bit of it that they set up sells for 7 million. So in amongst all of this stuff, they are the biggest. Building a big successful company, doing interesting work. The numbers, and there's plenty of articles that will tell you this. There's some doubt over just how rich were you, just how successful were you? And that drives people insane. But I mean, that's been entrepreneurs for 100% that you have to pretend to be successful for a long time before you actually are successful. And that's clearly one of the things he did. He then built up his own brand, really. He wrote a book called Happy Sexy Millionaire, but again, and sold really, really, really well. It was really beautiful. It's a great title. Essentially, you Know if these are things you would want to be a happy sexy millionaire. And got into podcasting very early with Diary of a CEO. Diary of a CEO, as you can by the very title is essentially saying, well, I'm a CEO, I'm going to talk to some other CEOs, sort of man to mat, usually man to man, occasionally man to woman. And it started as, as a business advice thing. But all you know, he, he's very smart and it was always, what's the take home here? What can I teach you? What can you, you can listen to this for an hour and be smarter and be, be more ambitious or have, you know, genuine take home stuff. He then started interviewing a few more celebrities and it started being a little bit more about mental health. When I went on it again, we, we, it's, I will say this. Firstly it was a really interesting chat. I absolutely felt like he was in therapy. I felt like a lot of the podcast was him asking questions and trying to work out who he was. And that's absolutely fine for me. I think that's fairly compelling in its own way. And after that podcast, whenever you do anything, any TV or podcast, you will get people come up and talk to you about it and that a very, very different group of people came up and talked to me in a very, very different way, in a very interesting way. So I've always, always been grateful I did that show and grateful I said some of the things I said and reached out to an audience who might not have heard that otherwise. So that's always been my thing with Steven Bartlett. I sort of think fair enough. And you know, you can't deny that he now is enormously successful. Then he went on Dragon's Den, which I do have an opinion on, which we will get to. He is unbelievably good on Dragon's Den as well. He's exactly what they need on that. They didn't have like a digital native on that. And he brings a completely different energy to it. So he is somebody who I think has done extremely well. He clearly has elements of being a Chancellor, but also he has elements of not being a Chancellor. You know, he has followed through and he has made an awful lot of money in a very, very interesting way. Now he is in this wellness world. I think there are issues, there are issues for our broader culture. I think there are certainly issues for the BBC.
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A
Yeah, he's very sort of better, never sleeps, isn't he?
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B
Yes.
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A
And these wear, I mean the whole thing of wearables and tracking everything which has. And we'll get onto everyone diving in in a minute. All the other podcasters. Cause I think that actually tells us something completely different to what we've been talking about.
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B
And it's also funny. Yeah, I just wanted to do that. Just to sort of say, this is who this guy is. This is why he is a target. You know, he has set himself up to be there, but this is where it gets.
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A
He's absolutely made for like Fitbits and aura rings and whoop trackers, which I must. Please don't say wearable. I mean, the thing about these things is I think if they must exist or they must do them, they cannot and must not pass for conversation. I don't want hear about anybody's. It's like hearing about someone's dreams. I would literally rather hear about your dreams or how much your 4 year old child is gifted and talented and a genius.
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B
Yes.
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A
Than I would what your sleep score is. And it should be something slightly shameful that you do in private.
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B
Yeah, I don't want to hear about your dreams, your kids, or your wearables.
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A
Yeah, it's a private activity. Right. Like overpaying for Neo, the childhood craze. Or watching lots of like kissing montages from heated rivalry on YouTube. You shouldn't talk about it.
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B
You should never talk about it.
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A
You shouldn't talk about it. If you do it.
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B
Okay, so there's no one in the room who would do either of those things.
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A
Exactly. It's disgusting. Don't talk about it in public. So there's tracker. But I did think it destabilized him so much that it reminded me a little bit of like a modern version of the Twist that if you didn't like him and you worked for him, you worked at Hatton, you could hack Stephen Bartlett's wearable, You could send him into an absolute tailspin, couldn't you? Because you could just like slightly alter the, you know, the vitals and he could. He. He would go into an absolute tailspin.
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B
That's how someone would get murdered.
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A
I don't know what.
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B
Black mirror.
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A
Yeah.
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B
By literally being driven insane by their Fitbit.
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A
Everyone, though, in other podcastings, the rest of the podcasting fear has had something to say in a way. I'm gonna say it. No one else will. Okay, this is exactly how World War I started, right? Yes.
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B
Finally.
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A
This is the podcast equivalent of everyone's now getting involved in a very, very short space of time. This is the podcast equivalent of like late June, early July 1914. Yeah. Seemingly isolated Event.
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B
Yes.
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A
The assassination of Stephen Bartlett's routine by three glasses of wine. Serbian wine. I don't know.
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B
It's a lovely. It's a lovely Hungarian.
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A
Gustavo Princip should have been containable.
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B
Yes.
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A
But people have got drawn in, in a chain reaction. These other podcast empires, complex alliances, webs of endorsements, and suddenly the arms race. If it were, everyone's involved in this dish now.
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B
Here comes Goal hanger.
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A
Right. So, yeah. And I include myself in that. Okay. Can we take 100% seriously, the job description of podcaster?
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B
Yeah, I think so.
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A
It's a number. But it's not 100, Richard. It's not 100. It's higher than 50, maybe.
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B
I mean, it's not.
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A
It's not.
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B
I would say it is. I would say it's lower than author, but higher than game show host.
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A
Can. To what degree can you. Do you have to take it 100% seriously as a job? I mean, Stephen Bartlett's using it as a verb. I podcasted worse, and I can't really.
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B
And it should be. I podcasted worser.
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A
Yeah. Well, I just don't. What about you don't use it as a verb? What about it just doesn't get used a verb?
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B
Well, then what do you say when you're podcasting?
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A
Just working.
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B
Okay. Oh, you call it working. That's interesting. You call it working. Wow, you've changed.
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A
Okay. But I tell you what I think is actually happening here. It's so interesting because all of these people who have kind of weighed in also are doing these, and I include ourselves in this, like an always on podcast.
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B
Yes.
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A
And you just need the content.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So I don't want to say they're like a Bloomsbury group or, you know, feeding into each other's work, but actually, it reminds me slightly of. Do you remember when we talked about bts and we talked about that thing, the Bangtan universe, which is like a sort of dark mirror world.
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B
Yes.
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A
Where because BTs were literally working the entire time. This is the. Obviously the. Create the K. Bart group. They were working the entire time, so they actually didn't have a time to have any form of life, so they had to create this kind of fake life, which they could then sort of sing and talk about where they have. Go through problems and have relationships and things, because there was literally no time to do anything other than being BTs. And I slightly wonder whether just this is just like, oh, great. Stephen Bartlett said something mildly stupid. We can have three a week's worth of content. All of us can about this.
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B
But I do think as well, you know, as, as I, as I, as I hinted at every article about Stephen Bart is, is this the beginning of the end? And people cannot quite see how he did what he did. But he has been wading into difficult territory recently. You know, he's, he's sort of, he started talking to, you know, experts on incels. He's had some sort of rather interesting, slightly funky opinions on his podcast. And I should say that Flight Studio, who is production company, they said the Diary of a CEO is an open minded, long form conversation with individuals identified for their distinguished and eminent career. That's like me and or consequential life experience. They heard a range of voices, not just those Stephen and the Diary of a CEO team necessarily agree with. But you know, everyone's laid into him. You know, they called him a grifter. They call, you know, they call his world an empire of bluff. So I think that, you know, he finds himself, you know, the more money he's had, the wider that podcast goes. He does find himself in an interesting new world, that's for sure. And you know, he's had issues on Dragon's Den as well with, with some sort of ear seeds that were supposed to cure diseases which they didn't do.
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A
Sorry, ear seeds?
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B
Yes, like little seeds that you put in your ear that I forget what it was they cured. It turns out they didn't.
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A
No.
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B
So it doesn't matter what it was that they cured because they didn't, you know, I could say anything. Cause they didn't cure anything at all. So he found himself in a, in a bit of trouble with that. And people always say, oh, they never invest on Dragon's Den. He's invested over 3 million pound on that show in like 54 different things. They really do invest and they really do invest.
- [18:50]
A
Yes.
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B
And he really does invest and he really, really gets involved. You know, he is, he is really good at business. You know, perhaps he wasn't as good at business as he hinted at the very beginning of his career, but he has caught up and now he is, which is half the game in the world of podcasting. It is sort of wild west. There is no ofcom. You can do what you want. There's things like, you know, when he's advertising Huel and Zoe where he was, you know, caught out and there was, there was an apology. It wasn't done again. But in terms of the content you do, in terms of what you talk about, you are free to do it Now. Dragon's Defin again, if we've learned anything from working, you know, from people who work at the BBC for the last 10 years, if there's a minor, minor issue, any sort of tiny issue that might come up, then the BBC get in enormous trouble, I would have thought. This is. And I love him on Dragon's Den, by the way. And I love Dragons Den. I love that show. I really, really do. It. That feels like an accident waiting to happen. I mean, it really feels like an accident. I mean, don't you think?
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A
Matt Britton's first trip to the podium. Wow. It's gotta come soon. It's been about two weeks. Yeah.
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B
You know, that feels like a difficult thing to ride both of those horses. To be on the BBC, where everything has to be squeaky clean and any newspaper will pick up on anything that happens. And to run an enormous podcast that interviews controversial people on the edge of intellectual thought as we know it at the moment and on the edge of health thinking as we know it at the moment. Both of those things you are allowed to do. You're allowed to do Dragons Den and you are allowed to do a podcast that pushes the boundaries of what we think about things. It feels like at some point that might become an issue. I find it. I find that dual carriageway that he's on quite an interesting one. Yeah, but he. Listen, he's an incredible self publicist and I don't say that as a criticism because, you know, that's essentially the career for so many people these days. When I went to do his podcast, it was on the day of the Queen's funeral and I don't drive, so they sent the car to pick me up. And normally if a car comes to pick you up as a Prius, in this, it was Stephen Bartley's own people carrier that was entirely tricked out. Instead of a thing between you and the driver, there was a school, like a massive screen, the whole width of
- [21:03]
A
the car screen that you could watch.
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B
Yeah.
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A
TV on. Okay.
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B
Yeah, yeah. All the seats were, were a cream leather and monogrammed in black sb. So you kind of think I sort of admire it because you just, you
- [21:15]
A
know, I mean, she overfinched well, because
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B
I'm just thinking I wouldn't pay for that if it was my, if it was my, I wouldn't do it. But, but it's, it's sort of commitment to the bit. But then, but the other side of it, we put the screen down because I wanted to chat to his driver. It was lovely, called Smiley and Smiley said he said, I used to work in retail. He said, in about five years ago, he said, you know, all went wrong. And I thought, right, I'm going to be an Uber driver. So Smiley gets a job as an Uber driver. He said, my first ever job. My first ever job. I get this thing saying someone three minutes around the corner needs to be taken 15 minutes away. My first ever job. I was quite nervous. Passenger gets in is Stephen Bartlett. He said at the end of the journey, 15 minutes later, he said, would you like to work for me? And he said, and I've been his driver ever since. So, you know, and funnily enough, Smiley and I, because he dropped me back off at home as well, and we watched the Queen's funeral procession together. Cause it was just at the end of my road. So the two of us, we sat
- [22:10]
A
in the car and just watched.
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B
No, no, we. We had a little wander down and watched the. What's the funeral procession? So I watched the Queen's funeral procession with Stephen Bartlett's driver.
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A
Well, that's a claim to.
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B
Yeah, isn't it just. Is there a podcast in that? So, and as I say, when I met him, I. I sensed he was looking for something. You know, he's in his 20s, of course he's looking for something. And I was happy to talk to him, but, you know, he. He now occupies a very interesting place in our culture. And this booze thing I do, I can. I know we're talking a lot about Stephen Butler. I really want to talk about this. Optimization.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Culture.
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A
Do you optimize?
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B
No, of course not. But it reminds me of nothing more than what people used to do, is they used to optimize their children. So they go. Their children would be at French lessons, then they'd be at piano lessons, and then they'd be at hockey practice. So every night they would be like. The kids lives were incredibly regimented because they were, you know, people thought you could somehow kind of mold this child into some kind of genius. Your child is not going to be a concert pianist. I will just say that. So teaching on the piano by all. Look at being. So they can play it at a party, but they're not going to be a concert pianist. But it seems to have swapped over from molding our children into supreme beings into this idea that we can mold ourselves into a supreme being by literally gaming every single statistic about ourselves. We're moneyballing ourselves, right?
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A
Yeah, but it's all just. You're just staying on people's platforms. Yeah, it's It's. I think you're never. You're. You're completely unoptimized.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You're. You. You're truly, like, giving your data to the man. The entire time. Literally every form of possible piece of data, you're giving it.
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B
I get that your gut biome is important. I would argue it's not that important.
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A
It should never pass a conversation at any point.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I'm Paul. I've even mentioned it on this podcast, but really.
- [23:56]
B
No, but it is. It is a fascinating thing, and it's very easy to make money out of. And it's all. But, I mean, I suppose, like all art and literature, it's all denying we're gonna die. I mean, that's.
- [24:05]
A
I mean, I just don't think the Whoop app is anything like the Great Gatsby, so I don't really want to see it compared to great literature. No, no, it's not. It's. It's really the. All of these things. I mean, it's. You know, it's just. It's just a fancy watch.
- [24:20]
B
Yeah. But the key thing that will kill you with stress and, you know, paying attention to every single number of every single. For some people, by the way, it works very well. Cause that's some people's personality. Some people absolutely love having a number for everything. That's why people love fantasy football. It's like fantasy football but for your health.
- [24:35]
A
You've had to stop for your health.
- [24:37]
B
Yes. Because I find it too stressful. Yeah, exactly. But this stuff, it's. It's not good for you. You know what works? Get a bit of sleep, drink some water, have friends laugh and love.
- [24:47]
A
And please don't compete over it. It's. It's just the last refuge.
- [24:52]
B
Absolutely nuts. And it's. It doesn't make you happy, but it does make another group of people very, very rich indeed. We know the answer already. We all know it. Every one of us knows it. And we don't need that to be monetized by other people. Love will be the next one. They will start putting love numbers on, like, relationships.
- [25:11]
A
But actually, it's really interesting. Just the complete wholesale abandonment of creation of intimacy to these platforms is really interesting, actually. There's a. I mean, you could do. I mean, you could do a very long series on that.
- [25:23]
B
But the key. Here's the key is you are the only generation that this will happen to you. This is a bubble that you're in the middle of. And historians will look back and they'll go, what on earth were you doing wearing all of these things? Tracking every single bit of your sleep. Tracking. There are lots of people who need, by the way, to wear trackers for medical reasons. We absolutely buy that. Most people do not need to use them. And there'll come a point in the future where everyone just goes outside and looks at a sheep, don't you think?
- [25:51]
A
Thank you. Thank you so much for that glimpse into our collective.
- [25:56]
B
But, yeah, if you get to the stage where couple of glasses of wine are ruining the next three days, then, yeah, you know, you have an issue. Let this be the end of something rather than the start of something. I like to think this is the end of the First World War rather than the beginning of the First World War, but again, that's my personality type.
- [26:14]
A
Very good. Okay, well, we'll await the Treaty of Versailles of all of this, which.
- [26:19]
B
Well, I'm sure I love that podcast.
- [26:20]
A
We'll put a bed to it.
- [26:21]
B
Yeah.
- [26:22]
A
After the break, we're going to be journeying to Sicily to discuss destination celebrity weddings and Dua Lipa and Callum turn as well.
- [26:31]
B
Whatever you do, don't drink the wine.
- [26:37]
A
This episode is brought to you by Lloyds. Now. I love it when characters are part of a club. You wouldn't know anything about that, would you, Richard?
- [26:43]
B
Thursday Murder Club, in some ways reminds me of the A Team.
- [26:46]
A
I would now like to map each of those characters onto the A team and feel I probably could. I mean, Elizabeth is Hannibal and it's not even close.
- [26:52]
B
Yeah, that's exactly right. And Ron is howling Mad Murdoch.
- [26:56]
A
Well, there are definite perks to being in a club. Just ask the members of Club Lloyds, because with Club Lloyds, you can bank on Lloyds to give you more. Wherever you are, if you join Club
- [27:04]
B
Lloyds, there's all sorts of benefits you can choose between. There's, for example, six free cinema tickets.
- [27:09]
A
They've got an annual coffee club and Gourmet Society membership, which would be mine.
- [27:14]
B
And also something that the Thursday Medical Club would enjoy very, very much indeed. To top it all off, you have fee free spending abroad, which means wherever you are, you won't be charged by Lloyds to use your debit card when you're traveling. Now, joining this club costs five pound per month, but that is refunded in any month that you pay 2,000 pound into your account.
- [27:32]
A
Now that is a club that's worth being part of. Check out Club Lloyds today. You'll need to be a UK resident and aged 18 or over to apply. It's nearly that time, everyone. The Rest is Football will be on Netflix every day for the world's biggest tournament. Join myself, Alan and Micah for daily debates, unfiltered takes, and the most special of guests, all from the heart of New York City. Yeah, that's right. We're excited too. See you soon. Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wink. Visit red bull.com brightsummerahead to learn more. See you this summer. Welcome back, everybody. Now I would like to offer you, Richard, a field guide to celebrity destination weddings. Because we've just had a very big one. Both of them are celebrities. Dua, Lipa and Callum Turn, who've just got married. Huge. Congratulations. I love both of these people. And they've just got married in Sicily in Palermo. Now, first of all, destination weddings, a lot of people have a view on them.
- [28:57]
B
Yes, I do.
- [28:58]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. And it's, you know, in civilian life, you know, you can end up having conversations like, sorry, they're getting married in Mexico, and for some reason, the Henriquend is in Mykonos. Unacceptable, right? This is totally unacceptable.
- [29:12]
B
I've got nine weddings this summer, okay?
- [29:14]
A
But these are not. These are not, not. These are not our ways, okay? We're talking about celebrities here, right? So let me explain to you what you have to do. This is the exact playbook, right? You, before you go to the destination, the week before you get married in either Chelsea old town hall registry office, or Marylebone town hall registry office. Both of them are in London. These are the only two options. Yeah, they did. They did. Marylebone, Right. There are only three outfit options for the bride. Vivienne west would put a mini dress.
- [29:46]
B
Yes.
- [29:46]
A
A white trouser suit or a pretty much exact replica of Bianca Jaggers when she married Mick.
- [29:52]
B
What does that look like?
- [29:53]
A
It's like a cream suit, but skirt suit, midi skirt.
- [29:57]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [29:58]
A
With a big white hat. Probably Yves Saint Laurent, but don't quote me.
- [30:01]
B
Yes. Wait, hold on, hold on. I'm just going to bring up a newspaper and quote you. Yeah, no, Marina said. Yeah, she said that Bianca said it
- [30:07]
A
was Yves Saint Laurent.
- [30:08]
B
Yves Saint Laurent, yeah. From. From Marina Hyde. Yeah, exactly. Bombshell. Yeah, I know. I won't quote you.
- [30:15]
A
Anyhow, those are the only three outfit choices.
- [30:18]
B
Okay?
- [30:18]
A
Dua Lipa chose option three, the Bianca jacket.
- [30:21]
B
Did she? I believe that's Yves Saint Laurent.
- [30:24]
A
Right? Yeah. I'm told.
- [30:26]
B
Yeah. For the man, there's only one choice
- [30:28]
A
no one cares about. Just don't bother.
- [30:31]
B
Like a dark suit no one's in.
- [30:32]
A
Yeah, well, Mick was in a light suit, of course.
- [30:34]
B
Was he?
- [30:34]
A
Yeah, Three piece. Yeah.
- [30:36]
B
But was Callum in the og?
- [30:37]
A
I don't know. I literally couldn't care less what the man wears to the registry office.
- [30:41]
B
Don't draw focus, right?
- [30:42]
A
No, don't.
- [30:43]
B
Yeah, exactly. Even if he is gonna be James
- [30:45]
A
Bond and I think civilians. Well, we'll get to that. Civilians only for that. Cause you don't want, you know, you're not gonna have Elton hanging around on the Marylebone Road chucking some dried rose petals.
- [30:55]
B
Oh.
- [30:56]
A
So for the registered anyway, then you have to decide where your destination will be. Italy is currently very popular. You know, you've got Lake Como, Tuscany, Sicily.
- [31:05]
B
Yeah.
- [31:06]
A
Venice.
- [31:06]
B
There's an awful lot of tax dodgers living there.
- [31:08]
A
Yeah, yeah. And then. So it's going to be very expensive. Right. So it's better if you picked your venue off the telly so that people can say. And this one, people keep saying where Joe Lipa and Callum Turner got married. They keep saying, oh, it's in the credits of the White Lotus Season two. Okay. It's not. But misreporting is also a very important feature of celebrity destination weddings. So we. Which is good. It needs a balcony. It needs a balcony where you can emerge for the hoi polloi to merge and give something to the paparazzi, a wave, as if to say, you know, obviously you can't come in, but I know I have a huge fandom and I'm so. We saw Dua Lipa on her balcony. And you also need to have a balcony where you can emerge the next morning. So people can say after you've been partying till 6am this is all very important that they can get a long lens of you. Now, the buildup, the local media, which will be picked up over here. The local media both loves and hates you. It's not a celebrity destination. If the local media doesn't both love and hate you. You've got Hudson Rose Road, clothes, whatever. This is quite a new thing. When George Clooney and Amal got married in Venice and they sort of took over the whole thing, no one really cared. Obviously. When Lauren Sanchez, friend of the podcast, and Jeff Bezos.
- [32:19]
B
Hi, Lauren. Hey, Jeff.
- [32:21]
A
People cared more. So you get a lot of these kind of boring articles about you know, oh, you're turning it into a theme park and something to do with the climate and so on like that. I don't know. I don't know. This is all part of it.
- [32:34]
B
Something to do with the climate.
- [32:35]
A
Something to do with the climate in the old days. Stephen Bartlett for a toaster for your wedding because you're setting up house now, unless you're judged to have, you know, temporarily ruined a 17th century city state, be it Palermo, be it Venice, you haven't really had a proper celebrity destination wedding. So we saw a lot of people saying about Dua Lipa and Callum, you know, Palermo is not someone's living room. What? Anyway, you just need to get a few locals to say things like that
- [33:02]
B
ruining a city is the. Your uncle being sick in a font of modern weddings.
- [33:07]
A
Yeah. Yes, yes, it's absolutely essential. Now you need a series of dresses. Nobody has just one. And what's quite. I saw that. We don't know what dress Dua Lipa wore yet. But we will find out.
- [33:21]
B
We better.
- [33:22]
A
We will do. But Donatella Versace was there. That's the other thing. The designer comes to the wedding.
- [33:29]
B
Oh, no, I know.
- [33:30]
A
Well, funny enough, actually, Kieran was once.
- [33:31]
B
In case there's any sewing he's doing. Well, you know, it's like you split it up.
- [33:35]
A
You just invite them. It's sort of. It's form. Okay. So I don't know. I'm guessing that it was a Versace dress, because otherwise Donatella is a bit of a rude.
- [33:42]
B
She'd be gutted if she turns up and it's Georgia Asda.
- [33:44]
A
Yeah, I know it's rude. It's almost rude. Okay, now somebody famous has to do a song. Obviously, it goes without saying that Elton is the pinnacle and. But if not, Robbie will do it. Now, Elton did do the song. Yes, yes. And I think it's almost always your song.
- [34:01]
B
Yeah.
- [34:01]
A
Yeah. Everyone. A lot of people have been able to tell everybody that this is their song.
- [34:06]
B
That's ironic, isn't it?
- [34:07]
A
Yeah. And the guest list is kind of a bit shady here because we don't yet know. And they're very, very good. It's exclusive. If your guests are the sort of people who know they're not allowed to put anything anywhere near social media or anything like that. So there's all kind of rumors. Maybe Robbie that was there, maybe if he would have to step into the breach. If Elton can't do it for one reason or another.
- [34:25]
B
Yeah.
- [34:26]
A
Anyhow, I feel like we should discover at some point that Eva Longoria attended. Don't ask me why. She is the Zelig of all celebrity weddings.
- [34:34]
B
Really?
- [34:35]
A
She was there when Victoria danced on Brooklyn.
- [34:39]
B
Was she?
- [34:39]
A
Yeah, very much there. Serena Williams. I know. She just presented some humanitarian award to Lauren Sanchez 15 minutes before.
- [34:48]
B
Did she? That was Serena Williams. Serena Williams is a celeb wedding I'd quite like to go to. I bet that would be fun.
- [34:53]
A
Well, you would have got quite a lot of good people there, I think. Katy Perry and Justin Trudeau. She's becoming a bit of Azaleg, really, Those two. I think we could. They might be the new Longoria of guests.
- [35:04]
B
He's loving his life. Justin Trudeau. You know, he reminds me more of day after day Portillo because it's like he did the political thing and now he's like, oh, I can just go like. You know, he's like, I can just hang out with Katy Perry and go around the world in the same way that Portillo goes, oh, I can just do train rides now forever and ever. And people like me.
- [35:20]
A
Yeah. Justin Trudeau's train rides program.
- [35:25]
B
Okay.
- [35:26]
A
But the logistics. You've got a lot of private jets. So that's. Then we have to have a lot of articles about how do they all. You know, how do you. Yeah, same. Which we had for the Bezos wedding. How do they. It's a small airport, is it? We don't even know. But you're made to think that Palermo is like this absolutely tiny.
- [35:43]
B
Yes.
- [35:44]
A
Kind of thing. It's not, by the way. It's not.
- [35:45]
B
It's like a major international hub. Yeah.
- [35:48]
A
But the. And the private jets are arriving, by the way. I read this really interesting article last week about this guy. He built a private jet tracker of basically Silicon Valley private jets because he thought that if there is an apocalypse, it's an apocalypse tracker. That they'll know first. And by the way, in my view, they'll have caused it. We stopped quantum computers.
- [36:09]
B
But that's how they'll know first.
- [36:10]
A
Yeah. And you'll know because it's a bit like the great noise of the private jets. A bit like in the ancient world when it was thundering. They thought the gods were displeased. We will think, all right. There's so many private jets, suddenly they're
- [36:23]
B
all heading to Alaska.
- [36:23]
A
Yeah. Or New Zealand, where they've got their bunkers.
- [36:25]
B
That's what my brother's new book is about.
- [36:27]
A
I know. You told me before. I'm dying for this.
- [36:30]
B
It's really good. Yeah, it's really good.
- [36:31]
A
It's really interesting. That whole world is very, very interesting.
- [36:34]
B
That whole world is mental. Yeah, but. Yeah, but it's absolutely right. The second five of them go to Alaska or New Zealand at the same time, you're like, oh, great.
- [36:42]
A
Yeah, it's over and you're not going to be able to get out anyway. The other thing with celebrity destination weddings is could it help with work projects? Look, I'm just saying for Callum Turner is him being bathed in Sicilian light in a white dinner jacket at this stage in a certain audition process. The worst thing.
- [37:03]
B
That's insane.
- [37:04]
A
Is it gonna give him the edge over Jacob? I don't know. I don't know whether it is. But for me, it's gonna be between those two. And as I said before that I thought they were leaning in one direction, but we don't know. And you don't know who says yes.
- [37:15]
B
That's a lucky side effect, though, isn't it?
- [37:17]
A
Yeah.
- [37:17]
B
They're not going to Palermo because of Bond. They're going to Palermo for the other many, many reasons that you're talking about.
- [37:22]
A
Let's think about synergies, Richard, because I can assure you, their agents are.
- [37:26]
B
You've got to have synergies.
- [37:27]
A
Yeah. So that sort of covers your celebrity wedding. The next one, which obviously we're going to have to go big on on this podcast is Taylor and Travis. These reports that are so nuts that I cannot believe they're true, but there have been a number of reports in saying that Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce are getting married at Madison Square Garden. That we know they're getting married in New York, but they're getting married at Madison Square Garden.
- [37:53]
B
Wow.
- [37:54]
A
In the room, like the Moonies. I mean, also, you work there. It's like me renewing my vows here. She works there. And sometimes. Not always, but sometimes she works there. I just. Anyway, if this is true, they'd really
- [38:08]
B
have to dress it up.
- [38:10]
A
Yeah.
- [38:10]
B
Because it's supposed to be. It's not going to look like an Oxfordshire church, is it?
- [38:14]
A
No, it's not going to.
- [38:16]
B
Or a grand palazzo.
- [38:18]
A
No, it's. I mean, you could. You could sell tickets to it. I don't know. This can't be true.
- [38:23]
B
I wonder if she'll get fans to go.
- [38:25]
A
Oh, of course. Yeah. There may be something of that. I don't know.
- [38:28]
B
But what's your general opinion on a destination wedding, though?
- [38:33]
A
Do you have to. Is my general opinion.
- [38:34]
B
Yeah. Yes.
- [38:35]
A
Why don't you have your honeymoon and
- [38:36]
B
then it's on you.
- [38:37]
A
Yeah. And then. And if you do do one. If you're actually telling me that you're going to also have a destination stag or hen weekend, you are now taking
- [38:45]
B
the piss, I think is fine. Because that's.
- [38:48]
A
Yeah.
- [38:49]
B
You know, you can. You can make an excuse and not go to a stag or hen.
- [38:52]
A
If you.
- [38:52]
B
If you. If you can't afford it or whatever. Whatever it is, you can kind of say, you know what. Oh, so annoying. I can't come out to Budapest. But for a. You can't say no to a wedding and you got family and you've got old friends and you. You know, everyone's got different income levels. Yeah.
- [39:06]
A
I think it's no. It's just a no.
- [39:08]
B
But I. I mean, if you are marrying someone Greek.
- [39:13]
A
Yes.
- [39:14]
B
Because that's where all of their family are from, so.
- [39:17]
A
Or if you're trying to find a halfway point and you're, you know, you're marrying someone Australian and they're, you know, fine. I get it.
- [39:21]
B
There are definitely excuses for having it.
- [39:23]
A
Yeah. In general.
- [39:24]
B
Yeah. If you're from Hayward Seath and you're getting married in Fadaraki and then everyone's flying back to Hayward Seath. Come on, come on, come on. Especially if you're of the age where everyone's getting married at the same time.
- [39:33]
A
It's so expensive.
- [39:34]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [39:35]
A
It's so. Unbelievably. It's expensive anyway, living in the uk,
- [39:39]
B
do celebrities pay for their guests to go out there?
- [39:42]
A
It's not clear, is it? I would have thought that if you thought for one second that, yeah, they took lots and lots of rooms. And I think you put all your family members and your friends who. And just say, we've got a room for you. And then, you know, you know, Adele, you sort yourself out.
- [39:56]
B
For obvious reasons, the best person to be in that situation is like, Callum Turner, aunt, but who's like, just sort of, you know, just an absolutely regular person who is beyond delighted that her nephew is getting married, has always wanted to see it.
- [40:09]
A
To the lovely Dua Lipa.
- [40:11]
B
And now it's like, you will not
- [40:12]
A
hear people say a bad word about.
- [40:14]
B
Oh, that's good.
- [40:14]
A
People really like her.
- [40:15]
B
Oh, that's really, really nice. But, yeah, so she's going there and like Elton John's playing, she goes, I mean, I often hear your song at weddings, but I've never seen.
- [40:23]
A
Oh, my God, not this one again.
- [40:24]
B
Yeah, yeah, but that must be amazing.
- [40:27]
A
Well, many congratulations to them. We hope for more. They'll probably release a couple of pictures just so we Saw what they actually look like.
- [40:34]
B
Yeah.
- [40:34]
A
But yes, so that was very. That was a happy one.
- [40:38]
B
But Taylor and Travis next.
- [40:40]
A
I mean watch this space. If they do it at Madison Sky Gardens. I can't believe it's true.
- [40:43]
B
Yeah, that's nuts. Okay, shall we turn to a more traditional wrestlers entertainment subject?
- [40:50]
A
Yeah, I mean, I suppose it's drama.
- [40:52]
B
Yes, it really is. Yes. We're gonna talk about 60 minutes, which is the biggest current affairs show in America, which is having an unbelievable couple of weeks. We'll talk about why Meltdown. Meltdown is exactly that. There was an incredible meeting between the, the new guys coming in to run it and some of the people who currently work for it, which has been reported everywhere. I just thought it's, it'll be a fun thing to, to give some context to. It's on CBS, it's on every Sunday night at 9 o'. Clock.
- [41:19]
A
But it's investigative reporting. We, it's, it's like sort of Panorama, but it's not. Yeah, it's.
- [41:24]
B
Yeah, it's like if Panorama was massive, it's basically.
- [41:27]
A
It's 60 Minutes.
- [41:27]
B
Yes. That's.
- [41:29]
A
It's actually sort of part of the global cultural conversation.
- [41:32]
B
And yeah, they tend to have 15 minute investigations. They have these correspondents who've worked there forever and ever and ever and they take incredible pains over every single thing they report. So as it's a really blue chip show, has been for years and years and years a huge brand in the States. There is not a direct equivalent here. But and let's imagine it is something like the news at 10. This would be where your Trevor McDonald's and Jon snows and you know, these, the kind of has all the big hitters.
- [41:59]
A
We're talking about it because it's become the battleground of a fight over editorial independence, corporate ownership, Trump ego.
- [42:08]
B
Exactly. Yeah. So David Edison, who is the child of a billionaire who has bought CBS amongst many other things including CNN and all sorts of things. He, he decided to overhaul 60 minutes.
- [42:23]
A
Can I say something first before we say this? It actually started before then all of this because there was a Trump lawsuit. Trump bought a lawsuit against CBS for some what he felt was some kind of selective editing of a Kamala Harris interview. This was in cbs, owned by Paramount, was still owned by the Redstone family, but Shari Redstone was trying to sell it. And a lot of people thought, thought this case would eventually get thrown out because it was perfectly reasonable sort of first amendment defense to it. But in the end because they needed regulatory approval to be able to sell the whole of Paramount to Skydance, to David Ellison's company. They settled with Trump for $16 million. And a lot of people within 60 minutes were very, very angry that this has happened and said, this is we. The editorial independence being a sacrifice for corporate interests, for Trump interests. Scott Pelley, who is a veteran correspondent, was very vocal that. But anyway, the deal went through. They got their regulatory approval and they clearly regarded that as a price to pay. But we've then seen other things happen. Stephen Colbert, we know that Stephen Colbert show is finishing on cbs. So there's definitely a thing about CVS that, you know, is it, is it vulnerable to the editorial independence being interfered with by corporate entities?
- [43:42]
B
And the stuff that's happened this week is crazy. So there's, there's a woman called Bari Vice who ran a media organization called the Free Press that David Edison bought for $150 million. Right leaning, I think it's fair to say. Trump leaning, I think it's fair to say as well. And he bought Bari Vice in free thinking.
- [44:02]
A
Yeah. Story was that she was brought into the New York Times between 2017 and 2020, which was a sort of particular kind of at the height of, to some degree, kind of peak woke. And she was brought into sort of, she covered culture and politics to kind of be. Act as a counterweight to what, you know, seen as leaning too Democrat or whatever it was. She was quite reactionary. She said things like, you know, culture, the idea of cultural appropriation is stupid. Intersectionality is a flawed idea. These were regarded as complete sort of blasphemies at the time. And in the end, she resigned because she said that effectively Twitter had become the New York Times silent editor because people were so scared of cancellation or backlash that they kind of cleaved to quite a narrow point of view. And I have some sympathy with that. And there are lots of places that needed some kind of correction, I think. I will not say that I've agreed with everything she's done since then. And people, lots of people totally loathe her. But she was installed having never run a newsroom of any meaningful size before and certainly not a TV newsroom as editor as of in chief of CBS News by David.
- [45:22]
B
Well, that's the thing. David Edison buys her company for a lot of money and then sets her in charge of CBS News and 60 Minutes. So the situation you have is, as you say, someone who is an iconoclast versus a very truly traditional, very long standing, fairly liberal newsroom and this incredible franchise which is 60 minutes, which has been going forever and ever and ever. And a lot of the correspondents are in their 70s and 80s and have been there forever. And suddenly she's a new broom sweeping through it. Now CBS News, which she's in charge of, ratings are down and down and down. And now we have a situation with 60 Minutes, which is the absolute jewel in the crown. Down and it should be said, profitable. Yeah, you know, good ratings, profitable. Vice bought in a new kind of chief editor called Nick Bilton, who is not from. Particularly from a news background, used to write for Vanity Fair as a screenwriter, all sorts of things like that.
- [46:18]
A
He used to be a tech correspondent at New York Times. Yeah, yeah.
- [46:22]
B
So, you know, he's. He's from that world. And they had a meeting last week where he came in for the first time. And. And a lot of the big correspondents have left already. Anson Cooper, who was the sort of probably the biggest dog of all at 60 minutes, he has left.
- [46:38]
A
So many have been made redundant, and lots and lots of the producers have lots of staff correspondent. Everyone has been made redundant. They talk about it as black. Do they call it Black Thursday or Black Friday, whatever.
- [46:49]
B
So Nick Bilton comes in, has his first meeting with his team to try and say, look, this is who I am. This is where I want 60 minutes to go. And Scott Pelly, who we were talking
- [46:59]
A
about, one of the correspondent, very senior
- [47:02]
B
correspondent, he had something to say in that meeting, did he not?
- [47:05]
A
Yeah, he seems. And by the way, the audio of this meeting was of course, recorded and given to the New York Times.
- [47:12]
B
Yeah, I mean, literally within two minutes
- [47:14]
A
of the meeting ending, Scott Pauli made a big speech saying that Bari Weiss was murdering 60 Minutes. Strangely, he seems to, and various other things besides. He has a big. Goes kind of toe to toe with Nick Bilton. He seems not to have realized, Scott Pelly, that this could potentially get him fired.
- [47:35]
B
He said to Nick Bilton, you have slender qualifications for the job. You will never be welcome in this newsroom, is essentially what he said. This is his first meeting with his boss being recorded, by the way, and then that recording immediately being released. I'm not saying that saying who recorded it and who released it, but it was recorded and released very soon afterwards.
- [47:54]
A
Anyhow, turns out you can get fired for stuff like that. So he did, Scott, fairly. Scott Pelli did get fired, and he's now on this incredibly emotional round of interviews saying about, you know, the team, the family on 60 Minutes. You know, we travel together, we dine together, we go into Literal combat together or you cover literal combat, but okay. And then he started crying. In some of these interviews, he said, it's like, like your family being murdered. Someone wipes out a large number of your family members. This is talking about the, you know, comings and goings in the CBS newsroom. It's like your spouse being murdered. I would say that again, a reminder that American journalism takes itself so preposterously seriously.
- [48:38]
B
I, you know, I mean, British journalism takes itself quite seriously, British newsrooms, but
- [48:42]
A
American is, please, can you imagine anyone in the BBC saying this is literally like your spouse being murdered? Okay, let's just take a moment here. So there are three major correspondents still on air, by the way, who have said they will go if anything more is done to us.
- [48:57]
B
Yes. But they have all agreed for now to stay. The thing was, they were all going to go at some point. But like, one of them, Lesley Starr, I mean, she's 84 years old.
- [49:03]
A
I mean, this is like the Democratic establishment.
- [49:05]
B
Yeah, but it really is. But she's agreed to stay. Bill Whitaker's agreed to stay in another one just to sort of see if they can continue The DNA of 60 minutes into this, this new era. And Nick Bilton has come back fighting, quite rightly in some ways, he said in the termination letter, you know, he said that Scott Petty had behaved with remarkable incivility and contempt. And, you know, he did is the truth. Whether he had good reason to do it is another matter. I mean, Nick Bilton sent a memo saying that absolutely, it's not going to take any political leads from the ownership of, of cbs. I mean, I mean, but he would do that if it's true, and he would do that if it wasn't true. So it sort of doesn't help. But, you know, his email, it ends, I think, and this is where we came in. It ends. It's been a hell of a first week. Let's get to work. Which is like, like a Will Ferrell comedy.
- [50:02]
A
Yeah.
- [50:03]
B
So here's the interesting thing about this story is, is this purely Trump and the Trump agenda trying to bring down one of the last great bastions of American news and American news reporting and independent American news reporting. Is it that? Because every single fact about it makes it look like it. Is that the people who've been bought in, the people who have left the ownership, all of those things, or is it. And you know, when you hear Nick Bilton talk, he said, look, I genuinely recognize this show gets good ratings, and I genuinely recognize it as profitable. It will not be either of those things or do either of those things for long. He said broadcast news is an ice cube is how he's described it. And he said it is, it's, it's an ice cube is not going to get any bigger. I mean it's literally, it's, it's out there. It's going to get smaller and smaller and smaller. And the world of news now, as we know on this show very, very well, is a world of younger personalities, of clippable things, of, you know, going viral. It is not one hour on a Sunday night with a huge lead in from the NFL, which is what 60 Minutes has got. It is not an audience grown up with this franchise and believes in it and will follow it blindly. That's all gone. And so there is an argument that this isn't a political intervention. What it actually is is a life saving intervention of bringing in a whole new generation of people into this brand, this brand which is trusted and building it out and turning it into something extraordinary.
- [51:30]
A
I agree with that. I agree. And we can't argue that there has been effectively editorial interference. Oh yes, absolutely. Because the mere settling of us in order to get there, we can't. Yeah, there has been. And but I do also think that attempting to have a correction from that era where I mean, I sort of hate calling it Pete Woke, but you know what, for want of a better phrase, where lots of liberal newsrooms had in fact these incredible blowups about tiny, tiny things and real still enormous cancellations of staff members and things like that over really actually relatively minor infringements of some perceived liberal code. And I do think that there has needed to be some kind of correction if you wish to try and keep things mainstream. And you know, I've talked about it before and talked about it a bit when I did appear before the select committee that we're in the, in the UK we have this extraordinary thing that America does not have. We have the BBC sitting right at the center of our sort of mainstream. And I realize that people have got all sorts of different problems with the BBC but like 60% of people check it frequently in America. You've got a situation where nothing gets more than 20% for anybody and the polarization is almost off the charts. Like if you like Fox News, then you absolutely hate New York Times and vice versa. And they are, everybody is sort of flung out to the outer reaches of these graphs and they don't have, have anything sitting in the middle and the attempt to kind. And I do think that when a shared Mainstream disappears. And we see this all over the world. You get these big, big cultural problems. And it, and it. The lack of a shared mainstream in America and the perception that some things are for some people and some things are for other people, and it's very, very siloed like that is not great for social cohesion at all. And you can see the effects of it. So I think the sort of aim of it, whether or not you think they're doing it right and whether or not you think that actually is their aim or it's kind of a covert thing, interference, I think the aim of it is good to try and create something that more than 20% of people ever are going to think is trustworthy. And it doesn't sort of matter if you have got bigger ratings than you had before, because other things have fallen away. You're still, as you say, the ice cube is not a terrible analogy.
- [53:51]
B
Yeah. And one very interesting thing about it, you know, Trump is, is sort of obsessed with broadcast media and he's, he's obsessed with legacy media.
- [53:59]
A
Yeah.
- [53:59]
B
And, and the truth is that's, you know, the steam trains, those things. And he is obsessed, as are most of his generation, as are most of our generation, with these things that are not going to be here in 30 years time, you know, with the stuff that we grew up with, which we still consider to be incredibly important and which culturally is still incredibly important, you know, it's still. Because it's an echo chamber and, you know, legacy media always, you know, what legacy media talks about leads what other legacy media talks about. But that's not gonna be the battleground.
- [54:31]
A
No. And actually going round in high profile, as Scott Pelley's doing now, going around high profile broadcast slots and literally crying about things is like, oh, my God, you are absolutely not helping. Even the thing you think you're helping. He actually said at one point, I think the headlines will just be about me crying and people saying I'm a lunatic. Well, you called it.
- [54:51]
B
Well, listen, you called it. He's a Good journalist. Yeah. 60 Minutes is back on air in September. They are currently scrabbling around to get the sort of, I mean, again, they're saying is the stuff we do is incredibly difficult. The kind of journalistic kind of skills you're going to have to do to have to do what we do is almost impossible to find. And you kind of think, maybe it's not. Maybe there is a next generation of journalists. I mean, who will want to touch 60 minutes is another question. But they are currently recruiting to replace an awful lot of the producers and the, the talent they used to have. But it'll be back on air in September. We'll see what the ratings are like and we'll see what the political bent it's like. But I think it's a more interesting story than it first appears. And I think if one thinks it's just about political interference, I think we're missing the bigger picture, which is the biggest current affairs show in America. If it wants to stay, that has to find a way of reinventing itself.
- [55:40]
A
I agree.
- [55:42]
B
Any recommendations this week?
- [55:44]
A
Yes, I have. I've got a really good novel which is coming out this week. It's called Experts in a Dying Field and it's by Patrick Frayne. Now, Patrick Frayne is a very funny writer for the Irish Times. And this is very good for our entertainment podcast. This is a story about the members of a band, the Heathens, who were active in Dublin about sort of 20 years before the events of this story. And but tragedy struck and they sort of scatter and then they reconnect and it's about, I mean, it's about bands, it's about the music scene and it's a lot of it is about Dublin and, and it's really annoying. I know it's really annoying when people say, oh, it made me laugh and it made me cry. But it made me laugh a lot out loud and it absolutely made me cry. And he's got such humanity, Patrick Frey. And I absolutely loved it. So it's called Experts in a Dying Field.
- [56:37]
B
Amazing. I will recommend Disclosure Day, the new Spielberg movie, just cause it feels like a great Spielberg movie. We chatted to him about it. You can hear that on Thursday on our Q and A. But yes, it's a proper multiplex. And you know, I love, you know, backwards and all stuff like that, but it's nice to have both, isn't it? So, yeah, go see Disclosure Day. It's two and a half hours, but it doesn't feel like it.
- [57:04]
A
And our bonus episode for our members, which you can join@thereresticentertainment.com I'm talking to James Cannagus for a minute. It's about how a celebrity could make a run for office even within our political system now. And generally about celebrity politicians, what they bring and how we're going to see much, much more of them in the Future.
- [57:24]
B
Yeah, hashtag TheMartin Lewis question. We will see you all on Thursday.
- [57:29]
A
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B
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