Zendaya's Secret Weapon

Summary

The Rest Is Entertainment

Episode: Zendaya's Secret Weapon

Date: July 22, 2026

Hosts: Richard Osman & Marina Hyde

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Episode Overview

In this lively and insightful Q&A episode, Richard Osman and Marina Hyde tackle entertainment’s biggest talking points with trademark wit and wisdom. The episode’s central focus is on the increasing influence of celebrity stylists—especially Law Roach, described as Zendaya’s “secret weapon” and “image architect.” The hosts field listener questions ranging from the history and modern power of stylists to critical reflections on female violence in fiction, the mechanics of storytelling, and wildest PR stunts in music. Cultural references fly, industry knowledge abounds, and memorable moments are in no short supply.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Mea Culpas and Corrections

• License Fee QR Code Update
  Marina revisits a previous discussion around the BBC license fee’s QR code during the World Cup, conceding it was unexpectedly effective.
  • “The honesty box approach, as it were, has actually... worked.” — Marina, (01:48)
  • Richard thanks Guy Mowbray for his perseverance in delivering the message on air:
    • “For the last time, please don't shoot the messenger... but it worked.” — Richard, (02:17)
• E17 Reunion Correction
  Richard admits he was wrong about E17 not being reunited—turns out they recently performed and were “brilliant” at Chessington World of Adventures (02:54).

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Zendaya & The Rise of the Celebrity Stylist (04:45-11:16)

Law Roach’s Role and Power

• Who is Law Roach?
  • Described as Zendaya’s long-term collaborator and “image architect.”
  • Renowned for his confidence and for pioneering “theme dressing.”
    • “He has rescued this thing from taboo.” — Marina, (04:03)
  • Known for building viral cultural moments and spending over a year on a single outfit.
• Influence Beyond Styling
  • Law Roach not only styles Zendaya but has also influenced her public narrative, even revealing her relationship status with Tom Holland.
    • “Only he could be so indispensable… it wouldn't even matter if they said it.” — Marina, (03:56)
• Stylist Evolution
  • The role of the stylist has shifted from behind-the-scenes to being one of the most powerful positions in entertainment, often outstripping magazine fashion editors.
  • Examples include Angie Mukamal (Margot Robbie’s “Barbie” tour) and Rachel Zoe (Y2K aesthetic).
  • “They control the narrative. They have the archival access, and they understand virality and the red carpet better.” — Marina, (05:18)

Fashion as Strategy and Art

• Outlined the historic evolution: from studio-appointed wardrobes in Old Hollywood to the militarised fashion campaigns of today’s awards season.
  • “You become a business brand in your own right.” — Marina, (05:22)

Social Pressures on Red Carpets

• Richard expresses concern for the pressure on celebrities who aren’t fashion-inclined, fearing the fun and expression of clothing is lost to mounting expectations.
  • “I worry about the pressure… because some people are so unbelievably brilliant at it, that everyone feels they have…” — Richard, (09:19)
• Marina counters that “powerful people just wear whatever they like” and that norms are different for those at the top (10:47).

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Female Violence in Fiction & Publishing (11:52-18:43)

Book Sales and Crime Fiction

• Guardian Article Questioned: Nine out of ten bestselling UK fiction paperbacks feature a murdered woman—does publishing have a female violence problem?
• Industry Demographics:
  • Richard disputes the premise, arguing the top books are overwhelmingly by women, edited by women, and bought by women.
    • “It’s an incredibly female friendly industry, all the way up to the top.” — Richard, (12:24)
  • Points out crime fiction’s popularity skews these numbers; his own bestsellers buck the trend.
• Nuanced Perspectives:
  • Both hosts agree that TV drama is a bigger offender in casually using violence against women, especially rape, as a lazy narrative device.
    • “The amount of TV dramas, just throwaway stuff, that start with rape… to make you instantly invested because it’s so horrific.” — Marina, (14:34)
  • TV cited as being “desensitizing” due to the frequency and gratuity of violence.
• Crime Tradition & Gender:
  • Richard highlights the long tradition of women dominating crime fiction—Agatha Christie, Dorothy Sayers, Josephine Tey.
  • Emphasizes the genre’s complexity, with women as writers, readers, and central characters in all roles.
    • “If you’re a crime writer… you understand where you come from. You can play with gender in all sorts of ways.” — Richard, (17:39)
• Safety as Primal Fear:
  • Marina articulates the enduring anxiety for women:
    • “It is a very primal fear… that you are prey.” — Marina, (18:01)

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Deus Ex Machina in Storytelling (20:26-26:43)

Definition and Stagecraft Origins

• Deus Ex Machina (“God from the machine”):
  • A sudden, convenient plot resolution, rooted in ancient Greek and Roman drama (20:50).
• “It was actually started in ancient Greek drama. At the top of the theater… a god would descend at the end and basically resolve intractable plot points.” — Marina, (20:50)
  • Comedically likened to “I woke up and it was all a dream.” — Richard, (21:09)

Memorable Examples

• Shakespeare’s late plays and myth-inspired resolutions (e.g., Cymbeline, Pericles, The Tempest).
• “Why wouldn’t I like that?” — Richard, (23:07) [debating his supposed disinterest in Shakespeare]
• Adaptation (Charlie Kaufman/Spike Jonze) lampoons and then subverts the trope (21:56).
• The Wizard of Oz:
  — “Dorothy throws the water that kills the witch… Not only that, all the wicked underlings who worked for the witch turned out to have hated her all along.” — Marina, (25:12) — Richard confesses he’s never seen it, prompting shocked reactions:
  • "Oh, my God. It doesn't sound great." — Richard, (25:14)
  • “Well, millions would disagree.” — Marina, (25:23)

Critique of the Trope:

• Both agree it’s often unsatisfying unless cleverly inverted or lampshaded.
• “In general, it’s not my favorite way to resolve a plot.” — Marina, (26:17)

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Wildest Music Promotion Stunts (27:13-32:23)

Modern Band Publicity: Blossoms, U2, Jay Z

• Blossoms’ Guerrilla Gigs:
  • Recent PR wins include surprise outdoor concerts and crashing weddings—deemed charming and effective (27:17).
• U2’s Songs of Innocence iTunes Debacle (2014):
  • U2/Apple forced the album onto 500 million iTunes accounts, causing mass backlash and the creation of a dedicated removal tool (28:20).
  • “It was the single most disastrous PR stunt of all time. People went crazy.” — Richard, (28:20)
  • Notably, Jay Z did something similar the year before (selling a million albums to Samsung), but went uncriticised.
• Jay Z at Salisbury Cathedral:
  • Jay Z’s unique album promotion included visiting the Magna Carta, delighting the cathedral’s staff.
  • “It was great to welcome Jay Z to Salisbury Cathedral. He was clearly moved by seeing the original Magna Carta.” — the Dean, (cited by Richard, 30:50)
  • This highlight is embraced as a perfect example of lighthearted, effective showbiz publicity.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “He calls himself an image architect…. The Zendaya collaboration has made him famous.” — Marina on Law Roach (03:40)
• “The best stylists understand what your screen persona is…. To be on brand, to be instantly readable as yourself, but also to still to surprise.” — Marina (08:11)
• “I want to write about crime and I want to write about wrongdoing, but I’m not interested in that side of things at all.” — Richard (15:08)
• “It is a very primal fear of women’s that you are prey.” — Marina (18:01)
• “My favorite bit… Jay Z in Salisbury Cathedral, looking at the Magna Carta.” — Richard (31:00)
• “There’s nothing [Shakespeare] can’t do.” — Marina (24:16)
• “But you can, though. You can do that because… the powerful people just wear whatever they like.” — Marina, on red carpet fashion (10:42)
• “I find. I genuinely… fashion is not my… not my greatest love.” — Richard (09:19)

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Notable Timestamps

• 03:09 – Listener question introduces Law Roach and celebrity stylist discussion
• 04:45 – Deep dive into Law Roach’s career, influence, and legacy
• 11:52 – Exploration of female violence in fiction and the Guardian’s bestselling books stat
• 14:34 – Discussion of violence tropes in TV crime drama
• 20:50 – Explaining "deus ex machina" and famous examples
• 25:12 – The Wizard of Oz as a deus ex machina case study
• 27:13 – Craziest music publicity stunts: Blossoms, U2, Jay Z
• 30:50 – Jay Z visits Salisbury Cathedral for Magna Carta tie-in

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Tone & Style

The hosts maintain a conversational, irreverent, and deeply knowledgeable tone throughout, alternating between genuine cultural analysis and playful banter. Listeners are treated to both fresh industry insights and candid, accessible explanations, with plenty of asides and gentle ribbing between Richard and Marina.

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For Further Listening

• Bonus Series: Richard’s "World Cup of TV Theme Tunes," featuring Bella Hull and Ivo Graham, is available as an exclusive for subscribers.
• Email Questions: Listeners are invited to submit questions for future episodes: [e-mail]

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In Summary

“Zendaya’s Secret Weapon” is a quintessential episode for fans of pop culture and entertainment industry inside baseball. With engaging explanations of celebrity styling, gender politics in publishing, narrative device deep-dives, and stories of PR stunt successes (and disasters), it’s an episode full of brains, laughs, and memorable moments—perfect for anyone wanting to stay firmly on the showbiz inside track.

Transcript

[Marina Hyde]

The rest is entertainment. Is presented by Octopus Energy. Now, flowers, Richard, are a very important part of show business and there is

[Richard Osman]

a reason we're talking about flowers. As always with Octopus Energy, they do very interesting things with their customers. We will get to what they do with flowers. But yes, it's sort of the currency that runs everything.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. I mean, in the Bachelor, it's actually part of the format.

[Richard Osman]

Right.

[Marina Hyde]

The rose ceremony. So that flower is really earning its money.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. Can you imagine the person, by the way, there will be a rose wrangler on that show who has to make sure that the roses are absolutely perfect. That's like completely, completely full time job.

[Marina Hyde]

Also a full time job doing flowers for Elton John.

[Richard Osman]

Oh, my goodness.

[Marina Hyde]

One of the great lines in a court case ever, when one of his managers was accused of ripping him off and they discovered in court that he'd spent £293,000 on flowers in 20 months. QC was like, sorry, how's that possible? He said, I like flowers.

[Richard Osman]

Now, shall we get onto Octopus Energy? They have a sort of committed team who always look after your account. So if you get an email from them, it's the same people, but also they get to know you so well that sometimes they'll understand if you're going through a hard time. And what they will do is they will send you flowers.

[Marina Hyde]

It's not an apology, it's just because someone was going through something and they. You get your flowers. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rest Is Entertainment Questions and Answers Edition. I'm Marina Hyde.

[Richard Osman]

I'm Richard Osman. Hello, everybody. Hello, Marina.

[Marina Hyde]

Hello, Richard. How are you?

[Richard Osman]

Yes, I'm good. I have a mea culpa to start with, but I think you might have one as well.

[Marina Hyde]

I have one too. And I can hardly believe I'm saying this, but the QR code inviting people just asking if they would like to sign up to pay the license fee that was shown during the World cup,

[Richard Osman]

which we talked about a while ago,

[Marina Hyde]

which we talked about as the tournament went on, has in fact been very successful. I'm not going to get into specifics, but it has been very successful. And I think it's interesting. The honesty box approach, as it were, has actually, which I felt created some friction in advance of watching a game if you didn't really need to do it. I stand corrected and I'm very pleased to say that many people have signed up for the license fee that way. So I stand corrected and it's worth

[Richard Osman]

it for Guy Mowbray every time. Just Saying, and if you want to pay your license fee, the QR code is there. And for the last time, please don't shoot the messenger. This is a guy who's just like, I cannot make it clearer. I'm live, so you can't stop me. I cannot make it clearer that I do not want to say this, but it worked.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, thanks for saying it, guy, because it has worked.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. My mea culpa is we spoke about reunions that didn't work. And I was talking about E17, the documentary we made about them. And I said, it's unbelievable. They're not back together. Andrew Forecastle said, I have great news for Richard. E17 are back. They performed recently at an annual passholder event at Chessington World of Adventures. They were brilliant.

[Marina Hyde]

Wow.

[Richard Osman]

Of course they were. They've got songs.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, they've got songs.

[Richard Osman]

They've got, like, kind of eight songs that you go, oh, and this one. Yeah, and this. Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay.

[Richard Osman]

So very, very good news for license fee and E17 fans.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes.

[Richard Osman]

Shall we get on to some questions?

[Marina Hyde]

Please.

[Richard Osman]

I have a question for you. It is from Philip Sawyer. And Philip says, I saw the most incredible TikTok featuring a person called Law Roach taking a jet to Paris Fashion Week, grabbing an haute couture Schiaparelli gown from the Runway, then taking a private jet to London immediately to dress Zendaya in the gown for the Odyssey red carpet. First off, I like a question that has. First off in it. First off, who the head is? Law wrote, and when did Stydis become so powerful?

[Marina Hyde]

Okay, this is a great question. Cause he is absolutely amazing. He has been with her a long time. He calls himself an image architect.

[Richard Osman]

Okay.

[Marina Hyde]

He is genuinely amazing. The Zendaya collaboration has made him famous. He was the one who actually leaked that her and Tom Holland not leaked, but, like, answered the question when someone said they married. Only he could be so indispensable to their internal setup that it wouldn't even matter if they said it.

[Richard Osman]

Oh, that's law for you.

[Marina Hyde]

That's just law for you. Yeah. They started a long time ago in 2011, when she was still a Disney teenager. Basically, a lot of big houses turned their noses up. And he. I mean, he's so confident that he'd say, if it's a no now, it's a no forever. So much confidence that she'd be amazing. Okay, now, what he has done first, I think styling is so interesting. And you're so right, Phil. It's become a massive thing in much a different way than it Was in history. He has really pioneered that theme dressing. In the old days, it was like a bit naff. Like if sort of Kate Middleton went to Wimbledon and she was in a white dress or she got off a plane and she. He looked a bit like an air stewardess. It's like he has rescued this thing from taboo. Along, by the way, with Angie Mukamal, who's Margot Robbie's stylist, which. You remember the Barbie tour, this theme dressing.

[Richard Osman]

Do I remember it?

[Marina Hyde]

Well, you do remember she.

[Richard Osman]

No, I don't.

[Marina Hyde]

You don't? Okay. Well, she dragged that movie around the world. She's in a pink outfit for everything. And it was a huge, huge thing. It's a big part of the publicity. If you look at something like challengers, like, Zendaya was always in all this kind of tennis stuff, and instead of being naff, it was just kind of endlessly reinforcing. What he understood was how to go viral. He quickly that he did psychology at college. He comes from a pretty difficult background. He understood that to get the best clothes, you needed to create the greatest moments. And he has the most extraordinary process. Like he can spend over a year on an outfit, one outfit, developing it. It's like the development of a script for one of the dune things. Zendaya saw this kind of corset, a molded corset, and said, could we do this bit in a dress? So they changed the color to a kind of sand dune color. He really only does her now. He occasionally will do. Yeah, but you're really lucky with. Because you've got an amazing principal who obviously is incredibly beautiful.

[Richard Osman]

And they must really.

[Marina Hyde]

But also sells it.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

And will do very, very out there. I mean, really out there things. She's been in sort of robotic costumes. Amazing things. He has an encyclopedic memory for archives. So one of the other things that you want stylists to do is, like, pull stuff out of nowhere. And it's not like the thing that's just come down the catwalk and basically anyone can buy or get. And you're very right, Philip, to say that they've become much more powerful. There has been a huge shift in power from editors and magazine, magazine. These guys, these stylist men and women. Obviously, they control the narrative. They have the archival access, and they understand virality and the red carpet better. But you become a business brand in your own right. And as you say, this did not always happen in the golden age of Hollywood. The studios dress their stars, and that means that the wardrobe would, for Their off duty clothes would make them things that Rita Hayworth looks good like this. She can go out of these clothes, right? Then eventually you get fashion houses getting interested in some stars. So Givenchy obviously has Audrey Hepburn, Bob Mackie and Cher. Those kind of crazy kind of cobwebby costumes that she used to wear. Jean Paul Gaultier and Madonna, all the conical bras which become really iconic. But the Oscars and the awards season was not what it is now, which is this absolutely military fashion campaign where you've got to have I don't know how many outfits for. If you're in contention for an award, you have got to have an unbelievable number of outfits. Stars would sometimes buy their own clothes. I think when Diane Keaton got the best actress for Annie hall, she just got a blazer and a skirt out of her cupboard. Okay, we do not live in this world any longer. And then the 90s, which sometimes people say, just the absolute kind of desert of red carpet. People made lots of mistakes. And you know, Jodie Foster just bought a dress on holiday when she was in Rome and then wore that to the Oscars. It's like, oh, my God, this can't happen any longer. None of this happens any longer. There are certain moments in styling that are so amazing that they lead to kind of almost, or they certainly precipitate technological advances. J. Lo, when she wears to the Grammys this tropical print green plunging Versace dress, which you probably remember me just from me describing it, but that was the most popular.

[Richard Osman]

I remember you describing it.

[Marina Hyde]

You remember me describing it. But it was the most popular Google search ever at the time. Okay. In response to the fact that Google realized that people didn't actually just want to hear me, people like me describing it, they wanted to see it. They launched their image search function off the back of it. Okay. And then you get all these other stylists that come up and they become famous, like Rachel Zoe, who became this. That's a real Y2K aesthetic. And she was doing like Nicole Richie and Lindsay Lohan, all those sort of things. But the best stylists understand what your screen Persona is. And they understand how even in non costume, you can reflect that Persona. So it's more important than ever in the amount of noise there is out there, to be on brand, to be somehow instantly readable as yourself, but also to still to surprise. And the best styling. I've talked before, maybe I talked on Tuesday about Anne Hathaway and how actually the hate campaign against her was quite just an online thing. And it wasn't, you know, she was in big movies at the time, but Erin Walsh really rescued her from even that online thing by putting her in these kind of really fierce outfits. And she just sort of came back against the hate. The power of clothes can be absolutely amazing. Law Roach is at the absolute peak of his game. He's amazing. He's very lucky with who he dresses because she'll do anything and wear anything, and they've been together forever. But it's such an interesting business. And you're totally right. It has totally taken power away from those old legacy centers like magazine editors and so on. And it's very interesting. It's an incredible business.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. I find I genuinely. Because fashion is not my. It will shock you to learn. Not my kind of greatest love or something. I particularly have a kind of fix on if I see someone like this guy Laurote Zendaya. You do think it's extraordinary what they're doing. I get that that is an art. I get that is my only worry is. And also, by the way, I guess I know that that's a lot of fun. I know fashion is like incredibly expressive and incredibly fun. But if you are a Jodie Foster or a Diane Keaton, I worry that there is no room for that anymore. That you can just turn up in something you bought. I worry about the pressure that because some people are so unbelievably brilliant at it, that everyone feels they have. There's a huge amount of pressure to dress up for these red carpets now. And just. I just.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, because fashion has become. The business of. Fashion is led by these sort of things now. It's not really led by what's in vogue or whatever. It's led by these viral Internet moments that people see things and they have a trickle down. We talked about it. We talked. When we talked about jewelry and lending jewelry to stars. It's amazing.

[Richard Osman]

But I feel like if ever I have to go somewhere where I'm gonna have a photo taken or something, I'm for like two hours beforehand. I think, oh, my God, what is this suit? And I'm a man, so I can just wear a suit and like a.

[Marina Hyde]

But I think that's the real power move. Just turning off in whatever you like.

[Richard Osman]

No, but, but, but can people still do that is my worry. I don't want people spending a whole week.

[Marina Hyde]

If you're Britain's bestselling author and you wrote the book.

[Richard Osman]

No, not me.

[Marina Hyde]

Yes, but you can, though. You can do that because. And the powerful people just wear Whatever they like.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

I've got a friend who's really, really powerful, and she said, I'll wear a T shirt and skirt on the red carpet at can. And I don't care.

[Richard Osman]

Okay, that's good. You can still do that.

[Marina Hyde]

You know that you're like a backstage. You know, she's taking four films there. Whatever it may be, the powerful people don't have to be like that. You're front of house. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, I'm always glad if you love.

[Richard Osman]

If you look, I absolutely see. If you're Zendaya, I 100% see. That is like a positive, a huge positive. What a lovely way to express yourself. But I do think, oh, my God, it's hard to be a celebrity. It must just be so.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, it just takes so long. I remember when we talked about the Devil Wears Prada thing, there were so many women there who. I just thought, my God, this has been your whole day. And I'm so glad my face isn't my fortune because it's such a lot for you to do, but it is, you know, it's part of that is your business. And it's a. Yeah, it's tricky. I mean, I'm glad it's not me. I agree. Oh, this is a very good question, Richard. Ellie Stanhope says, I saw in The Guardian that nine of the 10 bestselling fiction paperbacks in the UK last week have one thing in common. A woman is murdered. Does UK publishing have a female violence problem?

[Richard Osman]

I saw this as well, and it's. And had a huge amount of response. And I am aware that a male author talking about this is not the best, but I do think there are issues with that contention. I would say that if you look at the. The top 10 books this week, I mean, there's a lot of crime fiction in there.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

And definitely women get murdered in crime fiction. Men get murdered in crime fiction. You know, what was the gender split of people who were murdered in. And then there were none. So definitely that there is definitely a sub genre of books which are written by women for. Principally for women readers that, that are about, you know, women in peril. That's for. That's for sure. But you actually look at the list. It's, it's, it's. It's slightly disingenuous to say it. Firstly, I mean, I'm on the list. I'm in the top 10. And a woman isn't murdered in my book. So factually, I can't speak for everyone else, but There, but there isn't one in my book. So I mean, fine, there's Robert Galbraith there, you know, J.K. rowling and she's murdered so many different people in her time. This Claire Douglas. I mean almost all these books are written by women, by the way. They are predominantly read by women as well. And then I keep seeing comments that say, yes, but who, but who is commissioning them? Who are the editors? Well, I tell you now, it's usually women. I said publishing is very, very unusual in it's an incredibly female friendly industry. All the way up to the top these days as well. All the way up to the very, very top. It has female consumers, it has all the biggest writers in the world. Now if you look at this top 10 as well, I mean the big story in this top 10 is you've got Florence Knapp with the names, you've got Virginia Evans with the Correspondent. Again you say how hard it is to make it as a writer. These are two people who did not have a name and have written a brilliant book and are now selling millions of copies of books around the world. One of the books is Frieda McFadden again, somebody who was just self publishing and has become one of the richest women in the world just through her enormous readership. So I think there's lots of stories in this top 10. Crime fiction is very, very popular. Are women killed more often than men? I suspect in female written books maybe they are, but I wouldn't have the numbers to back it up. Is there a misogynism issue in British publishing? I don't think there is because it's.

[Marina Hyde]

I don't feel like there is. Whereas in a lot of TV drama. Yeah, TV drama, I think I find there is. So when I was growing up there were like very few shows or anything that. Or films that dealt with rape at all. And you'd see there'd be something like the Accused or there'd be Deliverance and these were just kind of, they were kind of like monolithic awful things because it. They did. And they did it brilliantly by the way, both those things. But the amount of TV dramas like just throwaway stuff that start with rape and it's like a late or something. Just these incredibly baroque things being done to the female body when you know, when it's just been done so lazily and it's just a way to make you instantly invested in the story because it's so horrific.

[Richard Osman]

A woman in peril trope or it's

[Marina Hyde]

to make you care because you can't be bothered to write it any better so that people do care. I think it's amazing how desensitized to seeing really horrific things on crime TV that I have, that we have become. So I was speaking to an actress recently who'd been offered a part on Law and Order svu, Special Victims Unit, and she said, make of this what you will, but the opinion amongst her, and lots of her, was that it's a rape show. And it is true that an extraordinary amount of violence is visited upon women in that particular show. Most of it is about absolutely horrific things, often plucked from recent news stories or whatever happening to people.

[Richard Osman]

I think in publishing, there used to be much more of that issue. I think now there are very empowered authors out there. If you read those top 10 books, by the way, I. I don't think you will come away thinking that publishing has a misogyny.

[Marina Hyde]

But I do see gratuity on TV a lot.

[Richard Osman]

I think that's right. I think authors worked out a long time ago that that was a trope being used by certain authors. You know, maybe in the last decade and people have gone in a slightly different direction. Look at a writer like Claire Douglas. I mean, she's a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant crime writer. If you're a crime writer, you do. You're going to write about murder. But when I started writing Thursday Murder Club books, the one thing I really understood, and this is why you should never write for the market. You should never think what selling the stuff that was selling. There was a lot of blood and gore and violence and all this stuff, and I just. I didn't like it. It's not what I wanted to read. I want to write about crime and I want to write about wrongdoing, but I'm not interested in that side of things at all. And I think almost all the writers on this list are not interested in it either. You know, they're just not. So it's a really, really good discussion to have lots of factual inaccuracies about it. As I say, there's a, you know, I'm on the list and the woman isn't murdered in my book. That's absolutely by the by because it doesn't take away from the thrust of the discussion. But I think if you look at that list, it is an extraordinary celebration of what a powerful industry publishing is for women and for different voices of women. I mean, it's skewed, of course, because crime books are very popular. This is. I take issue with the maths, so saying. So nine out of the top bestselling books have a murder. Of all women, there's eight. Cause mine doesn't. And I can't speak for anyone else there, so. Of the 98,000 books sold that week in the bestseller list, 81,000 had the woman being murdered as central to the plot. So, and this is the maths, 84% of the books people have bought and read in the UK this week involved a woman being murdered for entertainment. You think? I mean, if you think. I mean, the top 10 is not all the books being built and women are not being murdered for entertainment. There's lots and lots of reasons to write murder mysteries. Lots of reasons, lots of motives, lots of people who are doing the murdering, lots of victims, lots of investigators. And everyone is playing with gender in all of those roles. That's the interesting thing. If you're a crime writer, you've read a lot of crime, you understand, you know, and crime again. In the 1920s, 1930s, what other industry was absolutely dominated by women? You know, and this was Dorothy Elsay, Agatha Christie, Josephine Tey, all of these people completely dominated. And every crime writer understands that lineage that we understand where they come from. And you play, you can play with gender in all sorts of ways if you're interested in writing about the world as it is.

[Marina Hyde]

And it is a very primal fear of women's that you are prey.

[Richard Osman]

Exactly that.

[Marina Hyde]

And so this is why women know that they walk with their keys in their hand and do all those things that we know that we do. So I think, yes, I agree. It is simply.

[Richard Osman]

And there are plenty of female writers who write those books and plenty of female readers who will read them. But there are also plenty, plenty of female writers who are writing very different books, who are writing about something incredibly different. So I. I think I would be surprised if the author of that had read all of those books. The point is interesting. I think your point about TV is. Is incredibly powerful and it's definitely been a trope for a long time. I don't think that's a lesson we take from that top 10. I think that that, that top 10, I think, tells us a. A very different story.

[Marina Hyde]

I agree. Now, shall we go to a break?

[Richard Osman]

Let's do that. This episode is brought to you by the Lloyds 5K house deposit.

[Marina Hyde]

Lloyds are offering a 5K house deposit, which was last seen in 1996. What are your entertainment memories of the 1990s?

[Richard Osman]

I feel guilty talking about the 1990s because you look back and it was, it was such a golden era.

[Marina Hyde]

We'd never had it so good and we didn't even realise because we were young and we just thought we were entitled to it all.

[Richard Osman]

We absolutely took it for granted. Yeah. Brit Pop was absolutely in its pomp Oasis playing to a quarter of a million people. You had Blur, Sway.

[Marina Hyde]

I'm so sorry.

[Richard Osman]

Spice Girls, amazing movies at the cinema, Trainspotting. I mean, it felt a time of absolute optimism, but at the time you just assumed that was the way that

[Marina Hyde]

the very British type of Optim.

[Richard Osman]

But part of the optimism, of course, is that mortgages were more affordable and that is what Lloyds is dealing with right now.

[Marina Hyde]

Yep. Last seen in 1996, Lloyds are now offering 5K deposit mortgages to first time buyers. Search 5K First Time Buyer 1996 Average

[Richard Osman]

First Time buyer deposits based on O and S data subject to status. Your home may be repossessed if you don't keep up repayments conditions apply.

[Marina Hyde]

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[Richard Osman]

Welcome back, everybody. Marina, a question for you from Mickey Baxter. That's a good name. Yes, that's a good, like kind of cockney villain name. In my new book, I've got like a gang who pulled off like a heist. And I had such fun coming up with the names, but Mickey Baxter could have been in there anyway. Hello, Mickey. Mickey says, returning to the era of MacGuffins and Chekhov's gun, things we've spoken about before, could you explain what deus ex machina means and give your favorite examples?

[Marina Hyde]

Okay, that's a good question. It means God from the machinery and it's from ancient Greek. It was actually started in ancient Greek drama, but it carried on through in ancient Roman drama. At the top of the theater, there'd be like this rigging in the roof and a God would descend at the end and basically resolve intractable plot points.

[Richard Osman]

It's essentially like a children's version of I woke up and it was all a dream. Yeah, yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

And it was obviously, as I said, it's used a lot in ancient Greek. Euripides does it a lot. Medea ends like that. Orestes ends like that. So it's not my favorite way. We ask them for favorite examples. Not my favorite way to resolve a plot at all.

[Richard Osman]

But it's essentially when a writer can't end what they've got, and they go, I tell you what.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, well, it's. Yeah, I agree. When it's done really well, you wouldn't really notice it was happening at all. There's some quite fun ones, but I'm not gonna. The Spanish Prisoner, there's something that happens at the end of that which I love, which is a David Mamet movie. If you haven't seen it, see it. But I'm not gonna give away anything of that. The end of the Lost Boys, I quite like.

[Richard Osman]

If you're a great writer, you can play with the fact that Deus ex Machina is supposed to be lazy and a. It is a trope, and so you can have fun with it.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, Charlie Kaufman in adaptation, the Spike Jonas movie. Charlie Kaufman who? The Nicolas Cage character. Charlie Kaufman wrote it, but Nicolas Cage is basically playing him. And he gets told by his writing guru, who is the famous Robert McKee, the writing guru, but played by Brian Cox, just never to use a Deus ex machina. And he's sort of desperate for an ending. He says, don't you cheat. Don't you dare bring in a Deus ex machina. Anyway, it's lampshaded, as they say, which is sort of like when a trope is inverted, but by the fact that. That at the end of that film, he does use one, but it's already been set up earlier, so it turns into a Chekhov's gun. So I like that. Okay, again, I like meta things, I have to say, and you're gonna hate this, but I love it. All of the late plays in Shakespeare, there's like four comedies, four things at the end, towards the end of Shakespeare's life, where he is essentially inventing a new format and plays that start as a tragedy and end as a comedy. And they're Pericles, Cymbeline, the Winter's Tale, and the Tempest, and all of them have a version of this in it because it's quite difficult. You know, you've got this tragedy and then they're these weird redemption arcs, and they're kind of resolved in comedy and in marriage.

[Richard Osman]

Why wouldn't I like that?

[Marina Hyde]

I don't know. Because you might just. You said you don't. You said you don't really like Shakespeare. Okay, sorry. Sometimes we have to talk about it.

[Richard Osman]

I'm just teasing you.

[Marina Hyde]

But just as a recommend he's quite good. Anyway, so in Cymbeline, Jupiter literally descends. In Pericles, there's like the goddess Diana descends in a dream and says, oh, you need to go to my temple. And there you're going to meet up with your long lost daughter and whatever.

[Richard Osman]

Clever.

[Marina Hyde]

In the Tempest, Prospero is sort of one all the way through because he controls the narrative, the island where the characters go. So he's really one all the way through.

[Richard Osman]

I found the Tempest very moving.

[Marina Hyde]

You like the Tempest, do you?

[Richard Osman]

Yeah, because it's about him as a writer. Right.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, my God. It's one of the greatest things of all time. Thank you. Yes. And I don't think the rest of

[Richard Osman]

his stuff I can live without.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay. There's a bit in. There's one where it doesn't come off, I don't think, and that's the Winter's Tale, which I absolutely love, which is a brilliant play. But I think there's something that. I don't know if you can do spoilers or something. I'm gonna do a spoiler for this. Cause it's written 400 years ago, let's face it. There's a statue sort of comes to life, like in Covent Garden. She wasn't dead after all. Yeah, exactly, Exactly. Very much like one of those.

[Richard Osman]

So he invented that.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, he invented living statues.

[Richard Osman]

My God. Is there nothing he can't do?

[Marina Hyde]

There's nothing. Nothing. But I. So the tragedy's not really redeemed there. But my favorite one of all, I think, is because it happens so much at the end of the wizard of Oz, which is a perfect movie. I will not be taking any questions. It is a perfect movie, but it's really weird. First of all, when Dorothy throws the water that kills the witch. They don't know that water kills the witch. It's just like some random thing that happens and it ends up completely resolving the plot. Not only that, then all the people who. All the wicked underlings who worked for the witch turned out to have hated her all along. It's like, did you not have your own water bucket? You could have done this ages ago. So that happens. And then when she's obviously, she's trying to get back home and she tries to get in the wizard the Professor's balloon, and then it floats away. And then that Glinda turns up the fairy and says, but you've had the power the whole way through. Cause you've been wearing these ruby slippers. And so there's that. This is. You just click your heels Together. And there's no place like that.

[Richard Osman]

I've never seen the wizard of Oz.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, my God.

[Richard Osman]

It doesn't sound great.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, my God.

[Richard Osman]

Well, that doesn't sound great.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, thanks for giving Shakespeare a sort of half thumbs up, but, yeah, the wizard of Oz is also really good, Richard. And I'm gonna break it down.

[Richard Osman]

It doesn't sound good.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay, well, millions would disagree.

[Richard Osman]

No, but you. But you accepted that, the way you've just described it.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, that's why I'm saying it's amazing that you don't really realize it's happening at all. And it doesn't matter. It is so such a perfect film. And the resolution of it is also sort of perfect. And yet when you think about that, there's masses of plot holes, there's masses of whatever.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. You're essentially snagging it off.

[Marina Hyde]

I'm not flagging it off. Sounded like you were brilliant. But that.

[Richard Osman]

You know what? Why didn't they just throw water over her in the first place?

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, well, they have to do. You know, they work for her. They're essentially enslaved by her. So they just. During one of the cleaning tasks, they could have done that by.

[Richard Osman]

Well, you would think she would accidentally get splashed at some point.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, that's really what happens, because Dorothy's trying to put the scarecrow out. He's on fire.

[Richard Osman]

You are kidding me.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Okay.

[Marina Hyde]

Sorry. You don't need to see it now.

[Richard Osman]

No, I'm back in. That does sound interesting. I feel it's one of those films I feel like I've seen. Cause I've seen a million clips.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay.

[Richard Osman]

I know the memes, you know.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. Never seen it.

[Marina Hyde]

Well, all right. Well, I like that one. Just because it happens so many times at the end of something that is nonetheless a complete gem and perfect and you don't mind and so. But in general, it's not my favorite way to resolve a plot. And I would have felt really cheated if I'd been sitting there in ancient Greece and it's like, oh, okay, well, if anyone can do that.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. I mean, that is quite nice.

[Marina Hyde]

But again, I don't think Madea shit.

[Richard Osman]

You don't think Madea is shit?

[Marina Hyde]

I don't think Madeira is shit. No.

[Richard Osman]

Okay.

[Marina Hyde]

I'm sure you.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

You're a massive lover of Euripides.

[Richard Osman]

Euripides. You pay for these. Let's see. That's the only thing I know about Euripides. Yeah. I don't know so much on. On all that stuff.

[Marina Hyde]

Okay.

[Richard Osman]

I ain't so Bright. Oh, I like Rent A Ghost.

[Marina Hyde]

I, you know, I love Rent A Ghost more than anything. Do you? You know I do. More than.

[Richard Osman]

More than anything. So you like Winter Ghost more than Shakespeare?

[Marina Hyde]

No, I don't like it more than Shakespeare, but it's out there.

[Richard Osman]

It's just because you said you liked it.

[Marina Hyde]

It's up there. It's up there, yeah. Again, a lot of supernatural elements. Supernatural things resolve those plots in many cases.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. A lot of deus ex machinary in Rent A Ghost.

[Marina Hyde]

In a way.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. And Widow the Wisp.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah. Emily Griffiths has got a question. She says, I live in Manchester and I'm a big fan of Blossoms. I saw recently that they performed a surprise live concert outside a nightclub in Deansgate and crashed Three Weddings to promote their new album. What are the craziest things that bands have done to promote a new album or tour?

[Richard Osman]

I mean, you do have to do stuff these days. By the way, I love Blossoms. If you don't know Blossoms and you wonder where all the guitar bands have gone, they're a great band. They're the band who backed Rick Astley when they were doing the Smith stuff as well. But, yeah, I love Blossoms. Well, I mean, the most famous one is U2, and I'm only going to talk about it because I want to talk about someone else who did it first and never gets any grief for it whatsoever. So U2, in 2014, when they released Songs Of Innocence, Apple bought the whole album. They bought it for $100 million. Apple gave you two $100 million and automatically pushed the album directly into the Library's of all 500 million iTunes accounts worldwide. So if you had an iTunes account at that point, as I think I did, suddenly you've got this U2 thing,

[Marina Hyde]

which people went nuts about it.

[Richard Osman]

But it sort of feels like quite a good idea. And it's U2. People sort of quite like U2. You're giving people a free record, you know, so it feels like, well, that works for consumers because it's free. It feels like it works for U2 because you're getting your album into the hands of people who would not otherwise have heard it. Plenty of people won't want it. That's absolutely fine. But, you know, you'll get those people on the periphery who are like, oh, I wouldn't have bought this and start listening to it. And you would think that it would work for Apple because it's. It's, you know, good publicity. But, yeah, it was. It was the single most disastrous PR stunt of all time. People went crazy. People were furious. It's like you two had turned up at their door and started playing when they were in the middle of watching something. There was immediate backlash. In fact, you know, we talked about JLo's dress earlier and Google, in the top Google search in the week afterwards was how to remove U2 from iPhone immediately. So, you know, so it sort of did something. Apple had to set up a new website to allow users to do just that. They literally had to create a new technology for you to be able to remove that from, from, from your phone. Bono later apologized on the Facebook. He said, I mean, listen, he knew the gig was up. He said, oops, I'm sorry about this. I had this beautiful idea and we got carried away with ourselves. Artists are prone to that kind of thing. A drop of megalomania, a touch of generosity, a dash of self promotion and deep fear that these songs we poured our life into over the last few years might not be heard. So you, you sort of see the thinking. So they got griefer today who didn't get grief was Jay Z, who did the exact same thing the year before. So Jay Z, he, Samsung bought a million copies of his new album, album before it came out. So his album was, was Magna Carta, Holy Grail. Samsung, they bought a million copies upfront for $5 a copy. So they get, listen, it's not 100 million, but it's, it's plenty of money. And it was made available for Samsung users. So, you know, that's, that's exactly the thing he did. It was a huge hit anyway. But essentially, like, he got a million sales immediately, didn't count towards the charts, so he didn't get in trouble at all. But my favorite bit, the only reason I mention it is because it was Magna Carta, Holy Grail. And not only did he do this, this, you know, slightly nakedly commercial thing of selling a million copies to Samsung, he also, he visited the Magna Carta in Salisbury Cathedral. And the Dean of Salisbury said it was great to welcome Jay Z to Salisbury Cathedral. He was clearly moved by seeing the original Magna Carta. I think it may have surprised some of our visitors. That's the showbiz news I like. Those are the things that I like. Jay Z in Salisbury Cathedral. Looking at the Magna Carta, you know,

[Marina Hyde]

forget less about the Magna Carta.

[Richard Osman]

You don't think.

[Marina Hyde]

No, it's like part of our origin story.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. But it's kind of fun. It's old.

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah.

[Richard Osman]

Don't you think?

[Marina Hyde]

Yeah, like, you know, yeah, yeah.

[Richard Osman]

And he's on an album called It. But that to me that's proper old fashioned publicity. That's the sort of thing you could do as a great.

[Marina Hyde]

For the cathedral as well.

[Richard Osman]

Great for the cathedral. It's a sort of.

[Marina Hyde]

A little bit less good than when those two Russian spies came over and said that they were just on the. That way too. Amazing. That was amazing. Again, this cathedral has some incredible publicity.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah. But they are thinking, oh my God, was it really 10 years ago that Jay Z was here looking at the Magna Carta? This is. We've been waiting for this. This is. Got the newsletter that week. The guy writing the newsletter must have been. Oh my God, thank you. Finally I've got something to talk about. But you know, anything that could be a VT on Bargain Hunt, I think that's the kind of publicity I like. I like for an album. The Samsung stuff less so. But yeah. In a world in which Blossoms, as you say, they crashed these weddings and it was very charming and they're very, very, very likable boys. So I'm going to repeat the name of the Blossoms album because I think people will love it. You can listen to it wherever you want. Songs from the Wedding Cake. It will not be downloaded to any of your devices without anyone asking. It's not released till October. But if you don't know Blossoms, check out Blossoms immediately. I will say that and. And big up to Jay Z for enjoying Salisbury Cathedral so much. Not the first, not the last.

[Marina Hyde]

Right. I think that winds us up for today, but we would love to hear your questions. As always, the email address is. The rest is entertainmentalhanger.com. please send us your inquiries, anything you found.

[Richard Osman]

You know, the kind of stuff we like talking about. Yeah, you get it. You know, Shakespeare, Rent a Ghost, you know, the kind of things we're interested in. Best ever episode of Rent a Ghost.

[Marina Hyde]

Oh, okay.

[Richard Osman]

No, we can't, we can't, we can't. We gotta go.

[Marina Hyde]

All right, thank you so much. We will be back next week. But if you haven't listened to Richard's great bonus series, remind us again this

[Richard Osman]

week it is the World cup of TV theme tunes. I'm with Bella Hull and Ivo Graham. It's a. It's a lot of. They were really good fun, the two of them. And yeah, it's. Again, it's just an excuse to have a wallow in pop culture but with a competitive element at the end which obviously I think makes everything better. And the first 10 minutes are available free as well. You can have a little listen and see if it. See if it hooks you in.

[Marina Hyde]

Perfection.

[Richard Osman]

Yeah.

[Marina Hyde]

All right. Other than that, we'll see you next Tuesday.

[Richard Osman]

See you next Tuesday.