528. The Nazis' Road to War: Hitler Prepares to Strike (Part 1)

Summary

Episode Summary: "528. The Nazis' Road to War: Hitler Prepares to Strike (Part 1)"

In Episode 528 of The Rest Is History, hosts Dominic Sandbrook and Tom Holland delve deep into the intricate buildup to World War II, focusing specifically on Adolf Hitler's strategic maneuvers leading up to the Munich Agreement of October 1938. This episode meticulously examines the political, military, and social factors that set the stage for one of history's most controversial diplomatic episodes.

---

1. The Foundations of Nazi Ambition ([02:21] – [09:35])

Dominic Sandbrook opens the discussion by highlighting Adolf Hitler's fervent desire to rectify the perceived injustices of the post-World War I era. Central to Nazi ideology was the quest for Lebensraum (living space) and a profound sense of humiliation stemming from Germany's defeat and the Treaty of Versailles. Sandbrook emphasizes that Nazism was inherently militaristic, driven by a collective thirst for revenge and a mission to restore Germany's former glory.

Notable Quote:

"War is not an accident. War is the end goal." — Dominic Sandbrook ([07:02])

Tom Holland concurs, noting that the Nazis' alliance with conservative militaristic elites who harbored similar expansionist ambitions further solidified their path toward aggression.

---

2. Hitler's Strategic Alliances and Early Aggressions ([10:35] – [16:54])

The hosts trace Hitler's foreign policy trajectory, showcasing his calculated moves to expand German territory without immediate confrontation. Key actions included:

• Remilitarization of the Rhineland: A blatant violation of the Treaty of Versailles that boosted Hitler's domestic popularity.
• Anschluss with Austria (March 1938): Seamlessly integrating Austria into the Greater German Reich, further emboldening Nazi expansionism.
• Intervention in the Spanish Civil War: Testing military tactics and strengthening alliances with fascist regimes.

Notable Quote:

"He has judged the whole thing perfectly. Seeing Kershaw says in his brilliant biography, he had been bold but not reckless." — Dominic Sandbrook ([12:08])

Sandbrook and Holland discuss how Hitler's actions were widely celebrated within Germany, perceived as fulfilling the nationalistic German populace's long-held desires for territorial expansion and national rejuvenation.

---

3. The Sudeten Crisis and the Munich Agreement ([25:11] – [33:42])

The focal point of the episode centers on the Sudeten Crisis, where Hitler sought to annex the Sudetenland—a region in Czechoslovakia with a significant German-speaking population. Key elements include:

• Conrad Henlein's Role: Leader of the Sudeten German Party, Henlein collaborated with Hitler to agitate for autonomy, setting the stage for conflict.

• Hitler's Invasion Plans: Contrary to public declarations of seeking peaceful resolutions, Hitler was determined to dismantle Czechoslovakia as a strategic move for further expansion eastward.

Notable Quote:

"We need to get Germany racially fit for conflict. So that's everything from popular culture, from films and whatnot, all the way down to children's textbooks." — Dominic Sandbrook ([09:35])

The hosts explore how internal German factors, such as economic strains from rearmament and the Great Depression, alongside international complacency, provided Hitler the perfect environment to push his aggressive agenda.

---

4. British Foreign Policy and Chamberlain's Strategy ([36:12] – [54:04])

Dominic Sandbrook provides an in-depth analysis of British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain's approach to the escalating crisis. Contrary to popular portrayals of Chamberlain as weak, the episode paints him as a formidable and rational leader intent on averting war through diplomacy.

Key Points:

• Chamberlain's Modernity vs. Nazi Aggression: Despite his traditional appearance, Chamberlain was a progressive politician who believed in peaceful negotiations.

• Public Sentiment in Britain: A widespread desire to avoid another devastating war influenced Chamberlain's policy of appeasement.

• Plan Z: Chamberlain's diplomatic strategy aimed at satisfying German demands to prevent conflict, reflecting his belief in negotiation over confrontation.

Notable Quote:

"I am prepared to rip up diplomatic protocol. I will fly personally to Germany to meet Hitler and to find a peaceful solution." — Neville Chamberlain ([56:03])

The discussion highlights how Chamberlain's policies were motivated by both genuine peace efforts and a realistic assessment of Britain's unpreparedness for another large-scale war.

---

5. Internal German Opposition and the Path to Conflict ([37:19] – [54:04])

Despite Hitler's outward momentum, there was significant dissent within the German military establishment. Figures like General Ludwig Beck expressed grave concerns about the impending conflict:

• Opposition from Military Leaders: Beck and others feared that aggressive expansion would lead to a two-front war, overextending Germany's military capabilities.

• Failed Coup Attempts: Attempts by high-ranking officials to curb Hitler's ambitions were quashed, revealing the regime's tightening grip on power.

Notable Quote:

"We should all resign collectively. You know, that will force Hitler's hand, get him to back down." — General Ludwig Beck ([41:20])

Sandbrook underscores that these internal conflicts illustrated the fragile unity within the Nazi leadership and hinted at potential resistance against Hitler's path to war.

---

6. The Brink of Invasion and Diplomatic Failures ([55:53] – [63:23])

As tensions peaked, Hitler set a firm timetable for invading Czechoslovakia, confident in his preparation and the complacency of international powers. The Munich Agreement emerged as the pivotal outcome:

• Chamberlain's Flight to Germany: In a dramatic move, Chamberlain flew to meet Hitler personally, embodying his commitment to diplomacy.

• The Munich Conference: Negotiations culminated in the agreement allowing Germany to annex the Sudetenland, a decision that would have profound consequences for the impending global conflict.

Notable Quote:

"The Sudeten Germans are being ravaged and raped. I have begged and begged the democracies for redress, but they have ignored me." — Adolf Hitler ([58:36])

The hosts draw parallels between Hitler's justifications for aggression and modern geopolitical rhetoric, emphasizing the recurring themes of exploitation and expansionism.

---

Conclusion and Upcoming Developments

The episode concludes on a cliffhanger, setting the stage for the imminent invasion of Czechoslovakia and the broader implications of the Munich Agreement. Hosts tease the next installment, which will explore Chamberlain's negotiations and the eventual fallout that would lead to World War II.

Closing Remarks:

"This is definitely a cliffhanger. So if you want to find out what happens next, how will Chamberlain get on with Hitler? Will there be peace in our time?" — Tom Holland ([59:01])

Listeners are left anticipating a deeper exploration of the Munich crisis's resolution and its role as a precursor to the global conflict that would soon engulf the world.

---

This comprehensive examination by The Rest Is History offers listeners a nuanced understanding of the complex interplay between Nazi ambitions, British diplomatic strategies, and the fraught political landscape of pre-World War II Europe. By weaving together detailed historical analysis with engaging dialogue, Sandbrook and Holland provide a compelling narrative that underscores the pivotal moments leading up to one of history's darkest periods.

Transcript

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Thank you for listening to the Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series and membership of our much loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club that is thereestishistory.com this episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. Now, every year brings new challenges. But there's one thing you don't have to worry about in 2025. Spending too much money on a wireless plan. Because now you know all about Mint Mobile. They have plans starting at just $15 a month when you buy a three month plan. And Tom, you can even bring your own phone.

[Tom Holland]

That's insane. And with all that money I'd save, I could maybe get another Roman coin. It's certainly a lot easier to do than learning Welsh, which is my other New Year's resolution.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

This deal is almost as good as what I consider the best deal in history, which is the act of Union when England bailed out the Scots and basically enabled the Scots to be kind of like honorary Englishmen. It's a brilliant deal and everybody should do it.

[Tom Holland]

So save yourself a little extra money this year. Switch to Mint Mobile and get three months of premium wireless service. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

To get this new customer offer and your new 3 month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.comhistory that is mintmobile.comhistory. cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.comhistory $45 upfront payment required.

[Tom Holland]

Equivalent to $15 a month new customers on first 3 month plan only speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. Today we are insulted. Our blood brothers are at the mercy of their cruel abusers without any means of defending themselves. I am speaking of Czechoslovakia. Among the suppressed minorities in this state are three and a half million Germans.

[Adolf Hitler]

These Germans are God's creatures. The Almighty did not create them so that the Versailles Treaty could place them at the mercy of an alien power. And he did not create 7 million Czechs to reign over these 3 1/2 million keep them in tutelage. And far less did he create them for ravage and torture. The misery of the Sudeten Germans defies description. They are being oppressed and humiliated in an unprecedented fashion. There must be an end to the injustice inflicted upon these people. The Reich will no longer stand for any further oppression and persecutions of these three and a half million Germans. It is the duty of all of us to never again bow our heads to any alien will. To this let us pledge ourselves, so help us God.

[Tom Holland]

So that Dominic was very much not friend of the show Adolf Hitler, and he was speaking to the Nazi Party Congress in Nuremberg on 12 September 1938 about Czechoslovakia as he frames it. And it's the beginning of the year. We're into 2025 now and on the rest is history. If it's the New Year, it must be Nazis.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

You're not wrong there, Tom. That was a very spirited performance. You didn't do. You didn't do an accent, which is probably best.

[Tom Holland]

I wanted to evoke the sense of Hitler through the power of my acting and my oratory. So I hope people got that sense.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

If you do get canceled for that reading, it's good to bow out in a very spirited. Yeah. In a very spirited performance.

[Tom Holland]

I also hope that people who may be watching this on YouTube will enjoy the. The hand gestures, which I thought were very Hilarion.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

They were very Hitlerian. Yeah. And actually the funny thing is those are your usual hand gestures.

[Tom Holland]

It is.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That's actually how you speak, how you speak off camera.

[Tom Holland]

So actually I find it quite easy.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. So let's give people a bit of context. What Hitler is doing there obviously is he is, on the face of it, defending the interests of the German speaking minority in Western Czechoslovakia, people who he says have been ravaged and tortured by their Czech or Czechoslovakian overlords. Of course, what he's really doing is preparing the ground for the invasion and dismemberment of Czechoslovakia, which he sees as a crucial step towards the creation of a new German dominion in Central and Eastern Europe. And Tom, as you said, we always like to welcome the New Year, the series about the Third Reich with a Third Reich. So we've done two series in the last couple of years. The first one was about their rise, the Nazis rise to power in the 1920s up to 1933. And the second one was about the Nazis in power in the course of the 30s. And this one really will lead us up to the outbreak of the Second World War and the fall of Poland. And this week we're going to be focusing on one of the most discussed, most controversial, most, I guess genuinely infamous diplomatic episodes in history, which is the munich agreement of October 1938.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, I would say, yeah, it's possibly the incident from history that has had the greatest influence on the way people, certainly people in the west, have approached international affairs since the war. I mean, basically it kind of lies behind everything. From the Suez crisis to the invasion of Iraq.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It absolutely does.

[Tom Holland]

We don't want to be Neville Chamberlain, we want to face down dictators.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. The Munich analogy is probably the most well worn analogy, as you say, in, in all international relations. And actually, I think it's a crisis that's generally a bit misunderstood and that the new, the nuances of it are more surprising and more interesting than people think. And maybe the lessons that people draw are not necessarily always the right ones. So I think generally when people use the Munich analogy, they're using it merely.

[Tom Holland]

As a political tool, as a justification to go to war.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Justification for something they wanted to do anyway. Of course, that's what politicians always do, isn't it? So let's dig into this in proper detail and we'll start by, I think, by reminding ourselves how absolutely central the idea of war is to the whole Nazi project. So obviously the first point, the foundational point, is that Nazism is driven above all by the shattering experience of the Great War and by the desire to put that right. So as Ian Kershaw says, Richard Evans, all the great historians of Nazism and of Hitler, the single thing that drives it more than anything else is a sense of humiliation and a thirst for revenge after 1918. And actually you don't need to be a Nazi to have that. So loads of people in Germany have that. Any conceivable nationalistic German leader in the 1930s or 1940s would probably have wanted to fight a war.

[Tom Holland]

And so the Nazis come to power kind of in alliance with the conservative militaristic elites who had been, well, had been the elites, you know, since the time of the Kaiser and before and in 1938. Are they still. They're still on the scene. Right. I mean, they've kind of been slightly sidelined, but they're still part of the makeup of the state.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, absolutely, they are. And obviously in the army, there are lots of people in the army who've been there for years. And Hitler's ambitions are absolutely, as they see it, in tune with their own long standing ambitions that they've had since the day they were defeated in 1918, which is, let's make Germany great again, let's get our territory back, let's expand our borders, all of that.

[Tom Holland]

Right. But make Germany great again and get our borders back. But not necessarily to go into other countries that don't contain Germans and conquer them as well.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And if Czechoslovakia contains a minority of Germans, then the majority are Czech and exactly Slovaks. And so that makes it Slightly different, doesn't it?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. Who've never been part of Germany. Exactly. Right. So I think the point worth making is that Hitler, of course, is not an ordinary nationalistic politician. He's not like a lot of these other people. So he has a very, very distinctive worldview, which we discussed at great length in the very first series we did. And at the center of it is this idea of racial struggle that comes from the social Darwinist ideas of the 1880s and 1890s. You know, you open the pages of Mein Kampf, it's all full of this stuff about a coming race war, the struggle for the. The future of the planet. I mean, here's a random quotation. He who would live must fight. He who does not wish to fight in this world where permanent struggle is the law of life does not have the right to exist. Other European politicians do not talk like this in the 1920s and 1930s. This is distinctive.

[Tom Holland]

You have to fight or you will be destroyed yourself.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. So I think it's fair to say that from the moment Hitler is propelled into office by those conservative elites in January 1933, absolutely everything is about preparing Germany for war. War is not an accident. War is the end goal. Richard Evans is brilliant on this in his book about the Nazis in power, about how everything that Hitler does is designed to make Germany racially fit for conflict. So that's everything from popular culture, from films and whatnot, all the way down to children's textbooks. By hammering this. This point home. Life is about struggle. The fittest will survive. You have to be hard. You have to be ruthless.

[Tom Holland]

There's a lot of pe, isn't there?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

There's an awful lot of pe, but there's a sort of like, there's a moral re education. You did a brilliant episode in our last series about the Nazis, about this kind of attempt to morally re educate people, to brainwash people, I guess, so that they become harder than hard. You know, the most ruthless people on the face of the planet. And this is Spartans. Exactly. Exactly. So in pursuit of his goal, Hitler has been helped by three things. First of all, you've already mentioned it. He's had the support of the army and the conservative establishment because they're delighted by this. This is what they always wanted. Secondly, he benefits from the fact that internationally, the Germans do actually have genuine sympathy. There are loads of people in Britain and France who, for completely understandable reasons, you know, you may not agree with them now, but lots of people, you can understand why they thought it. People feel guilty about the Great War and the way that it ended, they think it was a terrible struggle. Slaughter. Germany did lose a lot of territory. It did lose a lot of German speakers. You know, who wouldn't be a bit upset about that?

[Tom Holland]

Punic peace.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. Why shouldn't Germany have a proper army? Why shouldn't the Germans be treated with dignity and respect? So there are lots of people who think that. And then the third thing is because of the Great Depression, Britain and France in particular are fixated on their own internal problems, you know, and they don't want to spend a lot of money on guns, they want to spend a lot of money on soup kitchens.

[Tom Holland]

So quite familiar, yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yes, exactly. Very familiar. So all of this meant that Hitler's foreign policy up to 1938 had actually been, if you're a conservative or nationalistic German, it's a succession of foreign policy. Stunning achievements. Takes them out of the League of Nations. He massive rearmament, goes back into the Rhineland, which we did an episode about that alliances with Italy and Japan, intervenes in the Spanish Civil War and then most spectacularly annexes Austria in March 1938. So takes a big German speaking country and brings it his homeland and brings it into the Reich. And at this point, nobody says at this point, well, these are very outlandish goals. And clearly he's a man who wants to take over the world. I mean, well, a few people do, Churchill or whoever. But in Germany, people say this is actually completely reasonable. This is like he's going down the wish list of things that any patriotic German would want to see. We would want to have our troops in the Rhineland. We would want to bring Austria.

[Tom Holland]

What's wrong with that?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, what's wrong with that?

[Tom Holland]

National self determination. Because that's Hitler's genius, isn't it? Is that the League of Nations, which has been set up after the First World War, is all about national self determination.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Absolutely.

[Tom Holland]

A progressive thing to be in favor of. So why shouldn't Germans have self determination like everyone else?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That's exactly what he's playing on. And. And you know, if you have a city or a country with loads of German speakers who want to be part of Germany, the Woodrow Wilson Versailles Treaty, League of Nations principle is you let them choose, you give them the freedom to choose. Absolutely. And he has judged the whole thing perfectly. Seeing Kershaw says in his brilliant biography, he had been bold but not reckless. His timing had been excellent. The combination of bluff and blackmail effective. His manipulation of propaganda to back his coups, masterly. That sounds like Koestler's admirer of Hitler, which he absolutely isn't. But he's played his cards really, really cleverly, and the result every time has been a massive propaganda boost. So you have these wonderful sources on public opinion in Germany, which are the reports of Social Democratic Party SPD agents to their leaders in exile. And they say, look, he's. He's really popular. Whenever he does this, his popularity will often flag, and then I'll have a foreign policy achievement. And even people who don't really like him will say, oh, Hitler, you know, he's brilliant. He. That getting the Austrians back, that was fantastic. All of this kind of thing.

[Tom Holland]

Yes. It may not be running, making the trains run on time necessarily, but he does get chunks of the Austro Hungarian Empire that had never belonged to Germany before. You know, we've now got them. Hooray.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. Hitler himself, by the way, has by this point, 1938, he has completely drunk the Kool Aid. So he, as Kershaw says, he began thinking that he was merely going to be John the Baptist to some other nationalistic leader. He was the drummer in his own terminology. But by this point, he really believes. I mean, he refers to it again and again in his speeches. He says, you know, I've been chosen by providence. Fate has appointed me to bring the Germans to greatness. So he. Nobody believes in the Fuhrer cult more than Hitler himself. And by this point, he's going to be turning 50 next year in 1939. He feels a tremendous sense of urgency. He feels that weight of history, you know, on his shoulders, as it were.

[Tom Holland]

Well, but. But I mean, it's kind of more supernatural than that, isn't it? He feels appointed by some inchoate spirit to guide his nation to. To glory.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He totally does.

[Tom Holland]

And he believes that literally.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yes, he does.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, it's not just a kind of abstract spirit. It's. There is he. He feels ordained by some supernatural power.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, it's like he's a kind of Hegelian character who. Who incarnates the spirit of history and science. And he's been appointed. Yeah, exactly that. However, what's nagging at him is that both his parents died young and he himself is a horrendous hypochondriac.

[Tom Holland]

Well, he's drinking gun cleaning oil, isn't he?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He is.

[Tom Holland]

We talked about that in the previous episode and I think we both agreed that although we don't have medical backgrounds, we.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

We.

[Tom Holland]

We didn't feel this was the wisest thing for him to be drinking.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

No, he's. He's drinking this. This trench medicine, which is go clean the oil. And. And basically this gives him horrendous stomach problems. And to deal with this, his doctor, who's called Dr. Morell, has given him this cocktail of kind of vitamins and amphetamines and stuff that he is taking. So basically, it's fair to say Hitler is. He's a bit of a crank. I bet we can go on the record here.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, well, I hope that people sense the presence of amphetamines in that performance I gave at the start of the show.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Almost certainly they did. So he's got a kind of personal sense of urgency. He thinks he might drop dead at any moment. Secondly, the kind of wheels are beginning to come off the German economy. The German economy has been built on massive arms spending. And because of that, they're always running out of. Remember we talked about this bit in last series. They're always running out of fats of various kinds. Butter, lard, I don't know, oil. They're always running out of these things. And there's always massive kind of consumer shortages. And basically by 1938, the economy is very short of raw materials and cheap labor. And Goering, who's in charge of all this, keeps saying, like, the wheels are going to fall off at any minute.

[Tom Holland]

And foreign currency as well has gone, hasn't it?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And aren't there international boycotts which the Nazi high command can then blame on international jury?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. Exactly. Right. Yeah, They've. They've slightly. They've gone for an autarky. So they've slightly tried to sort of go for sealing themselves off in the world economy and this huge drive for arm spending. But basically this is unsustainable. This is going to collapse in the next couple of years. Finally, they are conscious by 1938 that the Western Allies, Britain and France, are at last beginning to rearm. And so the window of opportunity, as they see it, is beginning to close. And at the end of 1937, Hitler told his bigwigs, look, we've probably got about seven years to do this, so I think we should be looking to fight a European war about 1943-1945.

[Tom Holland]

And the European war would include taking on Britain and France and attacking the Soviet Union. So, I mean, basically taking on everyone. I mean, what are his plans at that point?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

At this point, I think it's possible that in Hitler's dream scenario, he doesn't fight Britain. I think he probably thinks he'll always have to fight France, but he thinks the French can easily be beaten. Of course, he's not entirely wrong.

[Tom Holland]

So he'll leave Britain to its empire.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yes, because he's making off, as we will discover in this series, he's making offers to Britain to stay out of the war up until the very last possible minute. He's spending much more effort on Britain than he is on France. So some of his generals were always anxious about this. They'd liked the idea of fighting small Central European countries. They'd never liked the idea of fighting Britain and France. But by 1938, Hitler is being encouraged in this aim by a terrible man. Another terrible man. This guy is the ultimate kind of war hawk. And he is the new foreign minister. And this is Joachim von Ribbentrop, who will be featuring a lot in this series. So if you see photographs of Ribbentrop, Ribbentrop looks kind of quite suave, doesn't he? And quite dapper, which was not his reputation in Britain, where people said he was always wearing inappropriate trousers or something. He.

[Tom Holland]

Yes, and he's very rude to tailors in Britain, so he'll summon them to come and, you know, measure him and then he won't turn up. So his name is mud. His name is mud on Savile Row.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, I mean, we take Savile Row very seriously, Thomson.

[Tom Holland]

So that's very poor. And also the other thing, he's. His name is mud in the Church of England because he gives a Nazi salute in Durham Cathedral.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Really?

[Tom Holland]

And has to be almost forcibly restrained. Yeah. Absolutely disgraces himself.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So Ribbentrop had been ambassador to Britain. He'd actually worked in Britain beforehand, and he'd also worked in Canada before the war, so.

[Tom Holland]

He speaks English, doesn't he?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He speaks English. He'd won the Iron Cross in the Great War, so he was physically quite courageous. But then he'd worked in the drinks trade, hasn't he? And he'd married the heiress to a German sparkling wine firm. And this basically made him an absolute figure of fun in Britain when he became ambassador and everybody said, look at this champagne. Champagne salesman. That's what people said. He's a champagne salesman.

[Tom Holland]

I put in my order.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. Not even real champagne. Right. German sparkling wine. Who wants that? No one. Oh, dear.

[Tom Holland]

Imagine if he had. Imagine if the Nazis had one. The vengeance he'd have had.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I've always said two things about Bribant that are surprising, that I learned from Richard Evans's recent book on the the Nazis. First of all, he was a brilliant violinist. And secondly, he competed in the Canadian National Figure skating championships.

[Tom Holland]

Really?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So that's a nice image.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. The Torvillon Dean of the Nazi Party.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. Which one was he? Torvail Ordine. Anyway, it's Tonya Harding. Surely he's the Tonya Harding.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, he is. That's harsh. On Tonya Harding, who's the subject of a very good film that made me more sympathetic to her.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Okay, well, fine. Margot apologized. I apologize.

[Tom Holland]

You can't equate Margot Robbie to Ribbentrop.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

No, no, that's strange casting. That's not casting anyone.

[Tom Holland]

No, we want it put on the record. I think you should just say you're not comparing.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

No, I'm not comparing Margot Robbie and Joachim von Ribbentrop. I want to be quite clear about that. Good. Okay. So Ribbentrop takes the hardest possible line at the Foreign Ministry. He always eggs Hitler on. He always says he, you know, that that's the way to Hitler's favor, basically, to be more of. Even more of a Nazi than Hitler is. And secondly, I think this is a really important point. Ribbentrop is completely blinded by his hatred of Britain. So he always says to Hitler, the British are absolutely spineless. They are the most pathetic, pitiful curs. They will never fight because they're too busy telling. Making jokes about champagne salesmen and Savile Row. And if we do ever fight them, we will crush them like insects underfoot. You know, so he really exit. He gives Hitler very, very bad advice.

[Tom Holland]

And you know who else is, of course, revealing to Hitler that Britain's air defenses aren't any good? Is Unity Mitford.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yes. I wondered if you. I wondered if she would make an appearance, an unwanted appearance in this podcast. And she has. All right, so. So let's pick up the narrative. In March 1938, Hitler comes back from Vienna on 15 March to a tumultuous reception. He's had an amazing time in Austria. He's been to his boyhood house. He's addressed this enormous crowd, and barely has he returned than he gets out a map. Goebbels diary describes it. And they go over the map together. And Hitler says, you know, I can't wait, because basically I'm going to see. I realize now that I will see in my lifetime the great German Reich, the German Empire over all Europe and all the world. And the next step is going to.

[Tom Holland]

Be Czechoslovakia, because I write that with the Anschluss. So Austria is now part of a Greater Reich, that Czechoslovakia is basically kind of sticking into the gut of this Reich. So purely On a map it looks, it's, you know, looks like it should be swallowed up.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It's encircled. It's, it's virtually encircled. Exactly right. And it's, it's a kind of island of Slavs surrounded by or partially surrounded by a lot of Germans. Exactly. However, Czechoslovakia is also a pretty serious target. A much more serious target than Austria. It's, it's bigger than Austria. It's got 15 million people. It was created from the Austro Hungarian empire, so Bohemia and Moravia from the Austrian bit and Slovakia from the Hungarian bit. It is the by far the most sort of resilient liberal democracy in central Europe. It's got a very well educated population. It has weathered the depression reasonably well. It's got a really, really serious industrial base. I mean I know Skoda became a joke in Britain in the 1980s, but not in Northumberland.

[Tom Holland]

Not in Northumberland where everyone drives a Scoda Yeti today. Yeah, Sadie bought one. Pride and joy. So we're very pro Skoda.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

The other thing about Skoda, are you touting for sponsorship? Is that what you're doing?

[Tom Holland]

If Skoda want to give us a free Yeti, we are, you know, we're here. Right. But the other thing which I hadn't realized is that Skoda made the Bren Gum, which I'd always thought was British.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Skoda is. The Skoda Works which is in Pilsen in western Czechoslovakia is one of the largest industrial complexes in Europe. It is a really, really serious.

[Tom Holland]

So a massive prize for a German economy on its uppers.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It's a gigantic prize. If you're playing a board game, you know you're desperate to get this thing. They make tanks, they make gut, they make the best guns. Some of the best guns, yeah.

[Tom Holland]

So the British army using it, I mean I'm amazing. Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

They make tanks, tools, ships, locomotives, they've got lignite, they make loads and loads of stuff. And Czechoslovakia therefore has this colossal military arsenal and a very, very well trained and well motivated army.

[Tom Holland]

And Dominic, don't they also on the, the borders where, where the kind of the mountains are. But the Germany, they've built a fairly impregnable series of defenses. I mean Imagino line but in a mountain chain.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

They have indeed their, their frontier defenses are pretty, pretty Sirius. They have a lot of raw materials. They have tungsten, they have uranium ore, I think it is.

[Tom Holland]

And Dominic, as I mentioned, lignite, I don't really know what that is but whenever I see it in this kind of book, I always think I want.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

The lignite and on top of that, the Czechs have two very serious allies, France on the one hand and the Soviet Union on the other.

[Tom Holland]

And the fact that France is an ally, if France goes to war, then Britain is obliged to go to war.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, probably.

[Tom Holland]

And so we're back to a kind of pre First World War, you know, mountaineers all tethered up by a single rope kind of thing.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, exactly. So it's, it's a tough nut to crack. Right. On the other hand, if you could crack it, great, because these are the attractions. First of all, as you said, it's a rich Slav country that obtrudes into the Reich. So loads of Hitler's generals think, you know, I'd love to crush that. It's allied to France. So if there is ever a war, Czechoslovakia would fight and that would automatically mean Germany would face a war on two fronts. So let's knock that out first. That makes sense.

[Tom Holland]

And am I right also that Hitler has potential allies himself because both the Hungarians and the Poles have kind of irredentist ambitions. They want to carve out a chunk.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

This is true of every country in central Europe and it will become a real, become a really important theme. So the dream of the French in particular was always to put together a kind of Central European alliance against Hitler. But the problem with that is exactly the point that you've identified that their neighbors think I quite fancy about. Yeah, exactly. So that's going to be a real problem. The Germans obviously want, as you've already mentioned, they want Czech stock as raw materials, they want the industry, they want the currency and stuff. For Hitler I think it's also quite personal. He hates the Czechs and he hates them because he was Austrian. And if you were a German speaking Austrian before the First World War War, the Czechs were basically your arch enemy within the empire.

[Tom Holland]

So they are the Slavs with whom Hitler had been had grown up kind of having a personal experience of.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly.

[Tom Holland]

So not the Poles or not the Poles.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He has no. This will surprise people. Hitler has no kind of prior with the Poles. He doesn't care about the Poles. He's never had any dealings with them. For him it's the Czechs.

[Tom Holland]

But also he has a kind of artist's yearning to ride in triumph through Prague, doesn't he? This great beautiful city with its incredible churches and yes, synagogues. Yeah, the great castle. So a bit like Paris, I guess. It kind of haunts his imagination as a foreign city that he would love to have as a prize.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He has that Sort of slightly adolescent, Wagner loving fantasy. I will ride through Prague as a conqueror, you know, that kind of thing. He absolutely, yes, exactly. So, as luck would have it, going back to the speech that you began, the episode, he has a perfect pretext for German action. Because the great flaw of Woodrow Wilson's project after the First World War of self determination, all these new nation states was there are so many minorities. And in Czechoslovakia there are 3 million German speakers who live along the western border, this area known as the Sudetenland. Now, they have never been Germans, they were Austrian subjects. But obviously in this world of nationalism, of new nation states, their Germanness, the fact they speak German becomes a massive issue for them. Now, they're pretty well treated. They're probably better treated than any other minority in Europe. They have full legal equality with their Czech neighbors. They're pretty well, you know, the Czechs don't massively discriminate against them, but they've been quite hard hit by the Depression, so a lot of them have been put out of work. And secondly, of course, over the border they've got this bloke ranting and raving about Germandom and saying he's going to build a greater German Reich. So obviously a lot of them think, I quite fancy being part of that. And the main Sudeten German party is led by this bloke who was an Austrian war veteran called Conrad Henlein, who also, I have to say, was gymnastics instructor. And it's. I think he's a PE teacher, basically.

[Tom Holland]

Well, he's. But I mean, more than that, he's a racist PE teacher.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He's a racist PE teacher.

[Tom Holland]

They're the worst kind of PE teacher.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, and actually the worst kind of racists.

[Tom Holland]

So he's a bad man.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, he's a bad man. Conrad Henlein. So he's the leader of the Sudeten German Party and he says, oh, let's let you know, let's basically get into bed with Hitler. So Hitler, as soon as he gets back from the Anschluss, he sets the wheels in motion. He gets Henline to Berlin for a secret meeting and he says, right, I want to sort this out. Like I'm going to start agitating for you. Let's get you, let's get you all riled up. So A month later, April 1938, Henlein gets his party together and he says, oh, we're being totally bullied by the Czechs. We want total self government, we want autonomy and all this. Now the important thing here is they don't this is not the aim. The aim is actually to dismember the whole of Czechoslovakia. This is just a pretext. So if Czechoslovakia said, oh, brilliant, well, you can have autonomy. That's not good enough.

[Tom Holland]

Hitler be furious.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That's not what they want. They want to make that. They want to give the Czechs a load of demands they can't possibly answer.

[Tom Holland]

So make them so humiliating that there's no way that the Czech government can possibly accept them.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

A little bit like that Austrian ultimatum to Serbia before the First World War, remember. So meanwhile, Hitler gets his commanders together and he says, I want you to draw up plans for the invasion of Czechoslovakia. Again, worth emphasizing, this is not just about the Sudetenland. He wants the whole country. He says to the head of the Wehrmacht guy called Wilhelm Keitel, he says, I want the whole country as a launch pad for the showdown in the east with Bolshevism. So he's still thinking beyond this. Right there again, fighting the ussr. And he also says, when we do invade, I want the whole thing done and dusted in four days. Because I don't want to give the British, I don't want a European war with Britain and France. I don't want to give them a chance. I want to present them with a fait accompli so that they don't get stuck in as well. But at this point, he says, this is a long term thing. We're not going to rush this. This could be like a year, a couple of years, who knows? But then something happens that massively advances his timetable. It's a slightly complicated and weird story, but basically there are local elections in the Sudetenland. There are some scuffles. At the same time, the Germans army are having maneuvers, just ordinary kind of military maneuvers, nothing sinister in it. And the Czechs get in a massive kind of funk and mobilize their reserves. They think the Germans are about to attack them. And actually, weirdly, this is the one time Hitler's not going to attack them. And as a result of this, there's all sorts of sort of diplomatic excitement, rows between ambassadors and stuff. There's a huge row between Ribbentrop and the British ambassador. The British ambassador's like, are you going to attack Czechoslovakia? What are you doing?

[Tom Holland]

So the British ambassador, yeah, he's Sir Neville Henderson and he's, I think, the first of two British performers in this story who don't turn up absolutely brilliantly. Called Neville. Yeah, if you're called Neville, it's. It's not good for you. And he is basically a guy who is calculated to rub Ribbentrop up the wrong way because he has impeccable tailoring.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

He's always seen wearing a carnation. In fact, he's. Did you know his uncle married Alice in Wonderland, so Alice Little.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Really?

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. And he's kind of. So he's the. The embodiment of an English gentleman.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. Ribbon trot would hate that.

[Tom Holland]

You know, he likes going shooting, so would get on very well with Gurring. In fact, does get on very well with Gerring. I think they all go off and to kind of shoot elk together. But in all kinds of ways, he's a terrible man to have sent to. To Berlin because there's no way that Ribbentrop will get on with him. And in fact, I think, am I right, that he has been sent because he's basically the person in the Foreign Office who people think he is most sympathetic to autocracies.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, he's. He's an archer. Pisa, actually is what he is. Neville Henderson. Which is then ironic that Ribbentrop and him don't really get along.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Because they have a massive row at this point. Henderson says, if you're really going to attack, I mean, you mad to attack Czechoslovakia because France will fight and they will have to fight you. And Ribbentrop goes absolutely mental and says, well, that would be the greatest defeat in French history. And if Britain were to join France once again, we'll fight you to the death. That's not a harmonious relationship.

[Tom Holland]

Well, this is what comes when people who have different views on tailoring.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly.

[Tom Holland]

Get to meet up in the chanceries of Europe.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. Yeah. Never have a champagne salesman. I mean, that's basically the. Don't get involved with champagne salesman or DPE teachers. Right. Ribbentrop tells all this to Hitler and Hitler is absolutely furious. He's outraged at the loss of prestige. You know this. He sees this as a complete humiliation. The Czechs immobilized their army. The British have all kicked off. Whatever. And he says to his aides, I can't live like this. We have to solve this problem now. And he spends the next week at his eerie the Eagle's Nest, the in Berchtesgaden on top of this mountain. And then he comes back on 28th May, 1938 to Berlin and he summons his generals and he says, okay, I've come to a decision. We need to get this started. I want my living space, my Lebensraum. We're going to have to strike east eventually. And because of this, he says, one day we're going to have to fight France and Britain. But in that case, we can't have the Czechs hanging around on the other side, so we have to knock them out first. And he says, I am utterly determined that Czechoslovakia should disappear from the map. And two days later, Keitel presents him with the finalized plan. It's called Falgrun Case Green. And the preface to the plan lays out the explicit aim quote, to smash Czechoslovakia by military action.

[Tom Holland]

So the stage is set for war. I think we should take a break at this point, and when we come back, we will see what the upshot is. This is a paid advertisement from BetterHelp 2025 has arrived. And looking ahead, I see nothing but opportunity. Feats of daring do on sporting fields across England. And I feel this sense of optimism and hope because Every January brings 1,365blank pages waiting to be filled. Life isn't about resolutions that fade by February. It's about picking up the pen and becoming the author of your own life. And Dominic Therapy can become your editorial partner, helping you to create that meaningful story you deserve to live.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That's right, Tom. Therapy can help you learn positive coping skills for when you're stressed. And it can teach you how to set boundaries and to enforce them. You know, it can help you work through anything and empower you to be the very best version of yourself.

[Tom Holland]

Write your story with BetterHelp.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com restishistory that's betterhelp.com Restishistory Write your story with BetterHelp.

[Katty Kay]

Hi, everyone, it's Katty here from the Rest is Politics US Anthony Scaramucci and I want to tell you about our new series that looks at one of the darkest days in modern American history, the capitol riots of January 6th.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

You know, four years have passed since Donald Trump supporters stormed the Capitol building and tried to overturn the 2020 election results. And Caddy and I are going to explore the tensions and the personalities at the heart of that storm.

[Katty Kay]

Yeah, we're going to look at the whole story, starting off with, of course, the 2020 election result. It's itself Joe Biden's victory, Donald Trump's attempts to undermine that result right up until January 6th, and those horrifying scenes that all of us watched on television back then. So don't miss it. Go and search the Rest is Politics, Us wherever you get your podcast to hear just how Donald Trump tried to defy American Democracy. And we've included a clip from the series for you to listen to at the end of this episode.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Foreign.

[Tom Holland]

Welcome back to the Rest Is History. We are looking at the development of the Munich crisis. Hitler wants to dismember Czechoslovakia. And Dominic, we heard just before the break how he has summoned his generals, told them, draw up a plan. Let's, let's get on with this. What happens Next?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, Tom O'Rower says your first take of that. You confused me with Adolf Hitler.

[Tom Holland]

I did.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Which I think people who enjoy my journalism will appreciate that. That Freudian slip, you know that the.

[Tom Holland]

The German gym teacher, he wrote for the Daily Mail.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Conrad Henlein.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, he, he, they featured a splash from him and he came out of it very badly.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. Joseph Conrad wrote for the Daily Mail and he was Nazi.

[Tom Holland]

So, yeah, you, Conrad and this PE teacher.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right. So you ask about Hitler's generals, what they make of all this. Quite a lot of people from the very beginning are very, very worried about Hitler's ambitions. There's no sense that the German people want a war. So as we will discover in this whole of this series in the next couple of weeks, all that Nazi indoctrination has not been as successful as Hitler hoped.

[Tom Holland]

Well, can I also ask you about whether there is. So, quite aside from the fact, do they want to go and conquer a country that does not contain German speakers, do they feel any sense of kind of identity with the Sudeten Germans? I mean, do they feel this is their kith and kin?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I think it's the classic thing that some people who care about such things work themselves up into a lather about it. Oh, it's terrible that fellow German speakers are being poorly treated. I mean, that is a big theme in German newspapers in the 1920s and 1930s. But also probably most people are never particularly bothered about other people, are they?

[Tom Holland]

I mean, a dog that doesn't bark in the night is the Germans in the Tyrol, which is part of Italy.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yes.

[Tom Holland]

And they are. They're much worse treated, aren't they? But nobody seems to raise a pipe about them.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But it's a question about what the newspapers, what Goebbels's propaganda machine alights on, isn't it? So Goebbels's propaganda machine will run new stories day after day about the plight of the Sudan Germans and hammer it home into people's minds.

[Tom Holland]

The fact that the Germans, you know, go on and on about the sedation Germans, but not the ones in the Tyrol, they don't really care about them. I mean it's. Is this all just. I mean, do they passionately believe in. I mean, or is it just an excuse?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, it's an excuse. I think if it never come up in the newspapers, people wouldn't be walking around the streets of Hamburg saying, you know, I often think about the Sudetenland and the Sudeten Germans, but I was.

[Tom Holland]

Wondering about the Nazi High Command, the fact that they don't raise a peep over the Tyrol Germans, but the Sudeten Germans they do. Are they just using them or do they genuinely think that this is the disgraceful.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I think a lot of them ideally would love to have the Sudeten Germans in a greater. They'd like to have every German speaker in a greater German. Right.

[Tom Holland]

Because I suppose it gives them more manpower as well, doesn't it?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. And they believe in it ideologically as regards the Germans in the Tyrell and Northern Italy. They probably just think, well, more important.

[Tom Holland]

To keep Mussolini on side.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

More important to keep Mussolini on side. But to go back to the, the thing about what do people think about Hitler's war plans? A lot of the traditional conservatives and including actually people at Herman Goering. I mean, who's, who's. I mean he's not a traditional conservative, he really is a Nazi. But they're quite anxious about. They're like really risk war with France.

[Tom Holland]

Goering's kind of torn, isn't he? Because he does want all the arms factors and the lignite and stuff. I mean that would be brilliant because that would help out his, his various four year plans or whatever they are. Five year plans. Yeah, but obviously he doesn't want Germany to be crushed by no Britain and France.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He's very goring, as we shall see in this series, is extremely anxious about fighting Britain and France. But above all it's actually some of the generals who are really, really disturbed about it. So the chief among them is the army chief of staff who is a guy called General Ludwig Beck. So he was very experienced general, he was very pro Nazi. He's not a Nazi member, but he's, he really believes in the sort of making Germany great again project. If you've seen the, the film Valkyrie with Tom Cruise playing Stauffenberg, he's Terence Stamp in this film. And Becky, he kind of likes the idea of fighting Czechoslovakia, but he thinks, whoa, we are going way too fast here. This will mean war with France and therefore with Britain and we will definitely lose. You know, he's the chief of staff of the army, he's A serious person. So all summer, he is firing off memos saying, this is a dreadful idea. We shouldn't do this. The thing is, he is seen as a doomster. And the younger officers in particular say, oh, this old man, he's too pessimistic, all of this kind of thing. And even people who agree with him are nervous about going along with him, because, of course, ever since the night of the Long Knives, they've sworn a personal oath of loyalty to the Fuhrer. So they can't disobey the Fuhrer or go against him. Anyway, what's very bad for Beck is in June, they hold war games. And the war games suggest that actually Hitler's plan might work. They could beat Czechoslovakia in 10, 11 days. And even if they were then fighting France, they could then transfer troops to the Western front and hold back the French. When the result of these war games comes in, Beck sees this and he says, oh, God, this is terrible. This is going to happen. He says to his fellow generals, we should all resign collectively. You know, that will force Hitler's hand, get him to back down.

[Tom Holland]

He says, desperate times require desperate measures, or something like that. Some famous line, and we have to.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Save the fatherland from destruction. Exactly that. And the other generals say, no, no, if you want to resign, you resign. I'm not resigning. So he resigns in August, and this is actually a massive, massive lost opportunity in the story of stopping Hitler, because Beck is persuaded by Hitler to basically resign privately, not make a huge political fuss about it, because Hitler says to him, look, this would play into the hands of Germany's enemies. And actually, if Beck had played his cards differently, who knows? There were loads of senior Nazis who felt very anxious about the. The rush to war. And maybe, you know, who knows, if he'd gone public, things might have been different.

[Tom Holland]

Goering is the new Fuhrer.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. Anyway, he keeps his resignation secret. And actually, here's a really interesting thing. The late summer, the autumn of 1938, Beck and other senior people in the regime get together and they construct a plot to topple Hitler, to have a coup in Berlin. They say, look, we've achieved so much. He's actually now going too far and he's going to risk it all. They make sort of informal links, particularly with the British. You know, if we did topple Hitler, would you be on side? So the head of military intelligence, Admiral Canaris, is in on this, the former finance minister, the guy who's the most respected financier and industrialist in Germany, who's a guy called HJALMAR Schacht. He's.

[Tom Holland]

What's he called, Dominic?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He's called Hjalmar Schacht, Tom.

[Tom Holland]

Good.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. You didn't think I could pronounce that twice in a row? But you were mistaken.

[Tom Holland]

You were mistaken.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

You thought it was the Schleswig Holstein all over again. Yeah, but no. So they get this plot together. A guy called Lieutenant Colonel Hans Oster, who's a counterintelligence chief, he draws up the blueprint for storming the Reich Chancellery, killing Hitler, possibly bringing back the monarchy.

[Tom Holland]

So it's the Kaiser who's in exile in Holland. Is he?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

Is he on this or not?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I'm not sure he's as in on it as. Yeah, he's not, like, pulling the strings.

[Tom Holland]

Because Hitler hates the monarchy by this point, doesn't he? Because he's just been to Rome where he's been. He feels he's been humiliated by the King of Italy.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That's right. Yes, exactly. The King of Italy did not treat him as an equal, but treated him as a commoner.

[Tom Holland]

Yes.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And Hitler did not like this. Exactly. So the big question, I guess, is could this plot have worked? Because this is a real what if? And my answer probably is that it couldn't, because they did try something similar, the Valkyrie plot in 1944, and that didn't work at all. I think the big issue for them, though, is that if Hitler could somehow get Czechoslovakia without having a world war.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. They would rub on their face, wouldn't they?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

They'd look like total mugs. Yeah, exactly. So let's see if he can do that. That summer 1938, Hitler spends it at the Eagle's Nest. So this is his eyrie in Bechter's Garden in the south of Germany. It does his usual routine, loafing around, watching film terrible films, talking to Albert Speer about architecture, until, like, basically has. He has. He stays up very late doing nothing. So in other words, he has Theo's life.

[Tom Holland]

He conducts himself like Theo, except Theo, of course, is not hanging out with the Mitford sister. No, Hitler is.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And I think this is. I think this is when he's seeing her most of all. They go to Bayreuth together to Wagner.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And then they have to leave early because Hitler wants to go to a gymnastics contest.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Oh, my God.

[Tom Holland]

He takes unity to that as well. I don't know whether the Sudetenland guy, whether the PE teacher is there.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Far too much gymnastics in this series.

[Tom Holland]

It's a warning from history, Dominic.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. And actually, Hitler spends His time when he's doing any work, he does it on absolutely inconsequential things. Ian Kershaw lists the stuff that Hitler was doing that summer in 1938. Punishment for traffic offences, considerations of whether all cigarettes should be made nicotine free. Veer would not like that. Or the type of holes to be put into flagpoles.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, that's not very Third Reich, is it? No, no, that's what comes into mind when you think of the might of the Nazi state.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That's Jimmy Carter's approach to administration. That's what that is. Anyway, this is actually all affront. Hitler is fooling the world because all the time he is waiting for the attack on Czechoslovakia. He has set a date of the 1st of October and he says that's when we'll go in. He's absolutely convinced that the Western Allies will do nothing about it. And you know what? He's right, they won't. First of all, the Czechs, two main allies, the Soviet Union, ally number one, Stalin has just started purging the Red army, so he started killing all the officers in the Red Army. The last thing that Stalin wants is a war. So Stalin's not going to fight. And secondly, the French, France is going through massive internal political ructions because the Popular Front has just come to power and that has. Which is the kind of left wing organization and that has provoked a huge sort of backlash on the right. So there's a sense in which French politics is pulling towards the extremes. There's a lot of overheated stuff, you know, oh, is there going to be a French Civil War like the Spanish Civil War? Of course there isn't. And all of this means is the French basically are in no kind of psychological conditions condition to get stuck into a rerun of the Great War.

[Tom Holland]

Which means that Britain isn't either.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Which means that if the French go in, the British definitely won't go in, because as we see, the British, basically, when it comes to it, don't give a damn about Czechoslovakia. So all that summer, Goebbels fires up his propaganda machine. And this goes back to the question you were asking, Tom. Do people care? They care when you shove it in their face day after day, when in the front page of the newspapers it's Sudeten. Germans are being attacked, they're being beaten. The Czechs will run them over in the street. The Czechs have got plans to gas German villages. I mean, just mad, lurid stories, loads of stuff about how Czechoslovakia is actually full of Bolsheviks. It's a Trojan Horse for the Comintern. The whole stuff is actually very reminiscent of Vladimir Putin about Ukraine, Ukraine full of Nazis, all that kind of stuff.

[Tom Holland]

Are there people in Britain and France who worry about this, who think we'd rather Hitler had it than Stalin? Czechoslovakia, Nobody thinks quite in those terms.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I don't think they think, because I don't think they think that Stalin is seriously going to have Czechoslovakia. They know that Czechoslovakia is a democracy and, you know, very robust democracy. So the Nazis are pumping out all these stories. But here's the interesting. And, well, actually, here's the answer to your question. People are shocked at the stories. They feel sorry for the state and Germans, but they don't really care that much. One of the best sources for Germany in this period is a guy called William Scheirer, who was a radio American journalist, American journalist who wrote a diary. And he said, I don't think Hitler will get his war because people are against it. People don't want it. They say, oh, they feel sorry for the Sudetens, but they, you know, they don't want to fight a war about it. The SPD agents who are reporting to their exiled leadership, they say, actually people feel a bit sorry for the sedation Germans, but they're much more worried that a war will come about and then there won't be so much food and then it'll be really miserable and they won't, you know, the economic miracle will come to an end and all of this. And Goebbels is actually really annoyed about all this. He's aware of it. He talks about the German people having a war psychosis. He's a bit like George C Wallace's running mate, Curtis LeMay, saying that people had a phobia of nuclear weapons.

[Tom Holland]

They need to man up. Yeah, get a backbone.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

People have this mad phobia about a world war. Why?

[Tom Holland]

What's not to like?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right, exactly. So we get to late August. The propaganda machine has been running and running and running. And because of that, the stories have now filtered through to newspapers in London and in Paris as well. And so by the middle of August 1938, London is full of rumors. What is Hitler going to attack Czechoslovakia? What's going on here? So now we come to Britain and obviously our focus in this story is on the Nazis themselves. So we're not going to, you know, we could do thousands of episodes about Britain and appeasement, but we should just do five minutes here. So the Prime Minister is Neville Chamberlain. He's been Prime Minister for a year or so. Game Prime Minister 1937. I think the thing that people need to get into their heads, this sort of counterintuitive. Neville Chamberlain is not a weedy, dithery, indecisive, cowardly man. That is absolutely not what he is. He is intellectually very formidable, he is very arrogant, he is very inflexible and he sort of intimidates his cabinet and other politicians because he is the man who knows.

[Tom Holland]

And he's kind of vulpine, isn't he? And he is a bit chilly.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He is in that. There's a brilliant portrait of him actually in Robert Harris's book on Munich, Robert Harris's novel, where he really captures that sort of sense of Chamberlain's, his pride, his vanity. Yeah, that he is, you know, he will never change his mind, all of this kind of thing. He really, he's always thinks he's, he knows best. He's not this sort of foppish wimp which is the way he's commonly portrayed.

[Tom Holland]

But you get that sense, don't you? Partly because he seems compared to say the Nazis an old fashioned figure. So his wing collar, his umbrella which kind of becomes his emblem.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

The fact he's only once in his life been up in an airplane whereas Hitler spent the whole time winging his way around Germany in airplanes. And there is a feeling. So I was kind of, I was just looking up on this because I read a great book about Chamberlain years ago. So I just looked it up and there was this comment from Ernst von Weissecker who's a diplomat who's part of that plot, isn't he part of the general's plot and actually father of the, the Weiseka who then became president of Germany I think in the 90s. And he wrote if Chamberlain comes these louts, by which he means the Nazis will triumph and proclaim that some Englishman has taken his cue and come to heal. They the English should send an energetic military man who if necessary can shout and hit the table with a riding crop, a marshal with many decorations and scars, a man without too much consideration. And the one, the guy he wanted was a general, literally called General Ironside. He thought this was the guy who should go. So I think there is a sense that Chamberlain's image is a problem, that he does seem fusty and Edwardian compared to the go ahead kind of fascist.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well here's the weird thing with Chamberlain. Chamberlain in his own mind is a very modern politician. So although he dresses in an old fashioned way, he thinks I am modernity because he, he here's the thing, he thinks they are old fashioned. He thinks all that stuff about wearing a military uniform, wars, he thinks that's, that's like Winston Churchill, that's like 1890s.

[Tom Holland]

Because he's all about municipal drains and.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yes, that's the future health service. He was the brilliant minister for health in the 1920s because he's a product.

[Tom Holland]

Of the kind of the civic government of Birmingham, isn't he?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Absolutely. So Neville Chamberlain in his own mind is the future and Hitler and co are the past. They're mad relics of the Great War. But of course you're absolutely right, to them he looks like this effeminate, foppish, effete, absolute wimp and weed, who is backwards dead right about that. But I think Chamberlain does embody British public opinion in the late 1930s. All the commentary in Britain about war at this point is that war would be unbelievably apocalyptic, that our cities would be leveled by bombers.

[Tom Holland]

Yes, the bomber always gets through. Stanley Baldwin comment.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Stanley Baldwin quote, the whole business about gas masks, you know, all the famous pictures of little children clutching their gas masks and they're being evacuated. We will be attacked with gas. Of course we know now that didn't happen, but people think at the time, everybody will be gassed. If a war happens, there will be millions and millions of casualties. And so this is the heyday of peace petitions, peace ballots, the Labour Party is the party of disarmament, the Oxford.

[Tom Holland]

Union saying that they wouldn't fight for.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

King and country, wouldn't fight for king and country, all of this. And of course most Chamberlain knows all this. He also knows most people in Britain could not give a hoot about Central Europe. So Richard Evans, in his book on the Nazis at war, makes this point and he's absolutely right. Most people in Britain, they do care about India, Australia, South Africa, because those are the stories that are in their newspapers every day.

[Tom Holland]

Even then, they don't really care about about that much. Of course, I mean they might care about Australia if they're playing cricket, but otherwise, I mean they don't really care about the empire very much.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

The lesson of history, nobody ever cares about anybody else, let's be honest. But they definitely don't care about Czechoslovakia, where they've never been. They don't know where it is, they don't understand what it is, as we will see from Neville Chamberlain, quote, a.

[Tom Holland]

Faraway country of which we know little.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. So Chamberlain, the other big problem I think Chamberlain has. Chamberlain is a smart guy, he's a very rational person. He's very controlled. And I think as a result of all that, he is imaginatively limited. So he cannot conceive of the kind of person Hitler is. He's never met anyone like Hitler. The idea that this person could be seething with racial animosity and could be driven by this apocalyptic worldview. You know, there's nobody like that in the House of Commons.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Chamberlain. There's no one like that in Birmingham, Tom. Nobody's ever. He's never met anyone like that. So when he looks at this, he says, well, it seems to me perfectly rational that we could solve this Sudeten problem. And everybody, you know, we could all be friends, which is. Obviously, that's the. The great flaw in Chamberlain's vision, as we shall see. So, anyway, let's move towards the end of the episode. On 30 August, as a result of all this, Chamberlain's cabinet agree, they will not issue a warning to deter Hitler from attacking Czechoslovakia. Why not? Because they think it would inflame him and it would provoke things. They want to have a peaceful settlement. So what they'll do is they will talk to the Czechoslovak president, who's a guy called Edvard Bene, and they will get him to give concessions to the Sudeten Germans. Now, Benesh, he is a former lecturer in sociology and people who enjoy scouting be pleased to hear that, like Harold Wilson. He was a massive enthusiast for the Boy Scout movement. Benesh, which I think reflects well on him. Do you know what? He was also a freemason, like Shaquille O'Neal. So if you have an image in your mind of a sociology lecturer who's a fusion of Shaquille O'Neal and Harold Wilson.

[Tom Holland]

Goodness, there's something.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, you wouldn't. You wouldn't have thought that a sociology lecturer was the kind of person who would basically be suited to standing up to Hitler.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

No, that'd be right.

[Tom Holland]

Benesh, I mean, he's pretty tough. Yeah, well, Hitler, I mean, kind of ends up saying, well, he's a lot tougher than the Austrians were.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yes, well, he is. There's no doubt about that. The Czech Slovaks are much tougher than the Austrians. So Benesh says, okay, fine, you know, we'll give the Sudeten Germans what they want. We'll give them some more autonomy. We'll move to a more federal system in Czechoslovakia, because Czechoslovakia already has other tensions between the Czechs and the Slovaks, for example. He says, we'll have a more federal system. Fine. Of course, that's not what Hitler wants. Hitler doesn't want concessions, he wants a pretext for a full invasion. So basically he says to the Sudeten Germans, just reject that offer, say that you can't trust Spanish, which they do. They say, oh, well, we don't, we can't. Nothing you offer us will be good enough because we don't believe a word you say. So another week goes by and it's full of claims from the Sudeten Germans. Oh, we're being attacked, we're being abused, all of this kind of thing. And then on the 11th of September 1938, there is a dramatic new development across western Czechoslovakia. The Sudeten Germans, Henlein supporters stage big demonstrations and they incite clashes with the Czech police. Of course, this was done on orders from Berlin. And this was the context for the speech that you began, with Hitler's great rant at the party congress in Nuremberg where he says, they're being ravaged, they're being tortured, all of this kind of thing. And he has planned this out meticulously. This is the starting gun. This is going to be the great launch for the campaign. So in three weeks time we'll go in and in that speech that you did, he lays out his case very carefully. He says Czechoslovakia is a made up country created by the United Nations. He says, and I quote, the Sudeten Germans are being ravaged and raped. I have begged and begged the democracies for redress, but they have ignored me. And finally Germany is gonna, we're gonna have to stand up for our kith and kin. So this is very Vladimir Putin's speech. Yeah, 2022, before going into Ukraine, same day he gives that speech, there is a new outbreak of violence across Czechoslovakia's western borderlands. There are bomb scares, there are attacks on post offices and railway stations and so on. And then the next day, the 13th of September, a lot of fighting breaks out in a place called Habersberg, this village. The Czech police are sent in and four of them are killed by Henlein's goons, by his thugs. And the Czechs then declare martial law and they send troops into the streets.

[Tom Holland]

So this is brilliant. This is just what Hitler wants. All going to plan. Exactly what could possibly go wrong?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well then, Tom, there is a twist. There are going to be so many twists in these episodes. This is the first of a series.

[Tom Holland]

Of massive twists because Neville Chamberlain meanwhile, has been off grouse shooting while he has going on.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Of course he has. So.

[Tom Holland]

But I guess while he's been out there in the, you know, in the heather he's been, you know, working out, what could we do? His mighty mind, his mighty, his vulpine cool, chill, calculating brain exactly at work.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It has now. Chamberlain has already decided the Sudetenland should be given to Germany. He just thinks it's mad to fight for this day. Now it's full of Germans, like let the Czech should just let it go. He knows the British people don't want war. His military chiefs have already told him. They told him on 13 September, if there is a war, Czechoslovakia would fall in weeks. And we anticipate the Luftwaffe would bomb our cities every day for two months. You know, an incredibly kind of bleak, miserable prognosis. Chamberlain is horrified by this because he hates war. But he also thinks, you know, I'm the man, I can fix this. And he comes up with something that he calls Plan Z. And he thinks I can carry out a diplomatic coup that will change the entire picture. And he's always writing these letters to his sisters and he writes letters to his sister and he says, I will wait, I will bide my time, I will wait until things look blackest and then I will astonish the world. It's very vain man, Chamberlain. So on the night of the 13th of September, he decides the time has come and he sends this message to Berlin. In view of the increasingly critical situation, he says, I am prepared to rip up diplomatic protocol. I will fly personally to Germany to meet Hitler and to find a peaceful solution. I could come tomorrow if you like. I'm ready. This is an amazing thing like, because.

[Tom Holland]

No, no summit like this has ever happened before.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. Think about the series we did about the build up to the Great War.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Where it's all telegrams.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And you know, no one would ever interact their holiday to do anything.

[Tom Holland]

And it's kind of again looking for, I guess, kind of it's looking forward to the summits that will be held between the Americans and the Soviets.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, this is a sign again of Chamberlain's modernity, Right. That he's happy to do this. So half a day goes by and the world is waiting. And then on the early afternoon of 14th September, the reply comes from Berlin and Hitler says, I would be delighted to see you at the Eagle's Nest tomorrow. And so at 8 o'clock in the morning of the 15th of September 1938, Neville Chamberlain boards his plane at Heston Aerodrome for one of the most controversial flights in history.

[Tom Holland]

Well, Dominic, you said that this is a story full of twists and cliffhangers. And this is definitely a cliffhanger. So if you want to find out what happens next, how will Chamberlain get on with Hitler? Will there be peace in our time? You can hear the episode the next episode right away. And if you are not a member of the Rest is History club, you can join and get [e-mail] but if you'd rather wait, we will be back on Thursday with the story of Chamberlain's three flights to Germany, the Munich conference and, well, I'm giving it away here. The fall of Czechoslovakia. Goodbye.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Goodbye.

[Katty Kay]

As promised, here's a clip from from the Rest Is Politics US Miniseries.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

Trump is naturally a conspiracy theorist fueler. He will fuel the fire of any conspiracy theory because he's always seen himself as an outsider and he wants to foment the people from the outside to attack the people from the inside. So he's developing these ideas that he eventually uses in January, on the 6th of January. And the ideas are, there's misinformation out there. There's lies out there. Let's use these lies as fodder to attack the people on the inside. He's doing it with COVID I think hydroxychloroquine works. You may remember this. I took hydroxychloroquine, Mr. President, you took hydroxychloroquine. Yeah, yeah, I'm on it. I took it. And this is the beginnings. This is the kernels of what's about to come. And it all starts with COVID And it leads up to this insurrection, or as the president says, a very peaceful group of tourists descending upon the Capitol building.

[Katty Kay]

If you want to hear the rest of the show, go and search. The rest is politics, us, wherever you get your podcasts.