Nadia Yada (3:36)

That was Neville Chamberlain who was writing to his sister Ida after his trip to Hitler's mountain lair on Thursday 15th September 1938. And Dominic, he seems to have been completely obsessed with what Hitler was wearing.

Tom Holland (3:48)

Yes.

Nadia Yada (3:49)

Amazing attention to detail, but I suppose.

Tom Holland (3:51)

It'S a novelty for Chamberlain. Hitler's shoes. Yes.

Adolf Hitler (3:54)

Black patent leather lace up shoes.

Tom Holland (3:56)

Yeah. You would never, you would take him for the house painter he once was.

Nadia Yada (3:59)

Which he wasn't, was he?

Tom Holland (4:00)

No, he was never a house painter, he was a postcard painter. The fact that Chamberlain's describing it in such banal detail to his sister, this extraordinary meeting is a reminder of an unprecedented moment. It is right. He does. People don't normally do this. So in the last episode, the first of that two part series on Munich, we talked about how rare it is for European statesmen to do this, to fly to each other's countries at a drop of a hat for an emergency summit. You know, this didn't happen in the build up to the First World War. Chamberlain is doing something extraordinary here. He's boarded his plane, we ended last time at Heston Aerodrome. He's launching this remarkable kind of diplomatic coup in a desperate attempt to avoid war over Czechoslovakia. A war that Hitler is planning to launch on the 1st of October, which is just two weeks away and which.

Nadia Yada (4:51)

Chamberlain doesn't know that of course.

Tom Holland (4:52)

No, Chamberlain doesn't know that at all. So just on Chamberlain and his flight, Chamberlain left with the goodwill of the British press kind of ringing in his ears. Every newspaper in Britain said it was brilliant that Chamberlain was doing this. They were so excited. The news from Paris, you know, Paris sent him kind of messages of support. The French are delighted that he's doing it. Crucially I think for Britain, the Dominions, that is Australia, Canada and so on, New Zealand, they have made it clear to him they are very, very reluctant to be dragged into a war in Central Europe. Right.

Nadia Yada (5:25)

Because if the British don't want to die for Czechoslovakia, I guess if you're in Wellington or Sydney, I mean, that'd be even madder.

Tom Holland (5:32)

Exactly. So off he goes with their goodwill. It's actually not his first flight. This is one of the things that people think about Chamberlain, that is wrong.

Nadia Yada (5:41)

He got up with. With. With the future George VI, hadn't he? @ some air show or something? Is that right?

Tom Holland (5:46)

That's an industrial fair in Birmingham in the 1920s. It is, yeah. And they'd only like gone, circled the field and then landed again. But he had been in a plane before, that's.

Adolf Hitler (5:56)

It was great fun.

Tom Holland (5:57)

Anyway, he's traveled this time with his closest aide, who is a guy called Sir Horace Wilson, who is one of civil servants who was one of the key architects of the appeasement point policy. Basically, let's solve the European issue by giving in to what their more reasonable demands. That's how they see it. So they have ham sandwiches and they drink whiskey on the flight. I think that's an excellent combination, actually. I think more airlines should offer that as an option. It's a smooth flight, but then they get into Munich and there's a bit of a storm, a bit of turbulence. Oh, there's an omen there. Yes, it is an omen. Yeah. They are escorted by a German plane to the ground. Chamberlain comes out of the plane and he's very happy, he's smiling for the cameras. He's very confident in his own mind. I think it's really important for people to get this in their heads about Munich. Chamberlain is not doing all this sort of reluctantly, grudgingly, like he is the victim in all this.

Nadia Yada (6:46)

He's seizing the moment in his mind.

Tom Holland (6:48)

He is the star, he is the hero of the hour, he is the. He is the man of destiny, the modern politician who has seized European history by the scruff of its neck.

Nadia Yada (6:58)

The arbiter of the continent's fate.

Tom Holland (7:00)

That's exactly how he sees himself. Although that said, the anti appeasement MP Harold Nicholson said that Chamberlain and Horace Wilson arrived in Germany with, and I quote, the bright faithfulness of two curates entering a pub for the first time.

Nadia Yada (7:16)

That's a brilliant description, which I think.

Tom Holland (7:18)

Is pretty close to the mark. So you sort of get a sense of that from Chamberlain's. From that reading, right, you get there's a big sort of very pooterish quality. Yeah. There were lots of cars, people were saluting. Hitler had some smart shoes on, more black trousers. So he arrives at the Berghof. Hitler's eerie his eagle's nest. It's pouring with rain, it's very cloudy, which is why he says he can't see Salzburg. He's not the first British visitor to go there.

Nadia Yada (7:43)

David Lloyd George and the Duke of Windsor, who had been Edward vii. Notoriously, he'd been there.

Tom Holland (7:48)

Exactly. And Hitler is, as he describes. He's waiting from the steps. They shake hands. If you look at the photos, they both look very jolly. Chamberlain, of course, has his umbrella and his hat. He obviously makes this remark about Hitler looking like a house painter. And actually he's even more damning. I mean, British snobbery is a great theme of these episodes. When he goes back to the Cabinet later on, he says Hitler was, and I quote, the commonest little dog he had ever seen, though it was impossible not to be impressed with the power of the man. So he despises Hitler, and yet at the same time, he recognizes that there is a kind of demonic quality to Hitler. Though, as we will see, I think Chamberlain completely misreads the balance of power between himself and Hitler. Anyway, he's arrived at the Eagle's Nest. Hitler says, come into my study. They go into his study. Ribbentrop, who is hanging around, is not invited in.

Nadia Yada (8:38)

So that would have improved his mood.

Tom Holland (8:40)

No, no. He hates Chamberlain. Hates Britain. Loves German sparkling wine, but hates Britain. He's not allowed in, says Red Cross. And for three hours they talk. And there's the storm raging outside. Very kind of Wagnerian. Hitler is speaking quite softly. It's all been translated by his interpreter, who's a guy called Paul Schmidt. And he's going on and on about how badly the Sudeten Germans are treated. And Chamberlain says, look, if you will rule out force, I will consider anything to make you happy. No, we can talk about any kind of solution, but you must not fight. Hitler at this point, loses his temper. And he says, well, I mean, you talk to me about force. He says, but Bene and the Czechs, they're already using force against my countrymen in the Sudetenland. I will not accept this. You know, I will settle this question, all this kind of thing. And then he starts trouble with Hitler. He can't control himself.

Nadia Yada (9:29)

He goes off on a rant, doesn't he?

Tom Holland (9:30)

Goes on a massive one. He says, I don't care if there's a world war, you know, if I want to settle this, I'd rather have a world war, frankly, I'd have, let's have a world war. And Chamberlain is very cross at this point. Chamberlain does not give in to him. Chamberlain is not a wimp in a weed. Chamberlain says, well, if you think like that, then I've completely wasted my time. There's no point in coming. He says, if that's your intention, why did you have me coming to Berchtesgarden at all under these circumstances I think it's better if her leave straight away. And amazingly Hitler backs down at this point. People don't normally talk like this to Hitler. Hitler says, oh well, well let's go back to your previous thing. You said you would grant self determination to the sedate and Germans. Well maybe we could, maybe let's talk about how that would work in reality. And Chamberlain obviously thinks to himself at this point, you stand up to this bloke and he will back down, he will be reasonable.

Nadia Yada (10:18)

How are we getting this? Is this from Schmidt or Hitler or from Chamberlain? I mean who.

Tom Holland (10:23)

So this is a combination of. Schmidt wrote memoirs later on where he talked about all this. I mean Schmidt is an amazing source. But also Chamberlain reports all this to his cabinet and he also writes about it to his sisters. So the letter to Ida that we began with, so we get kind of different.

Nadia Yada (10:39)

So there is a possibility that he might be slightly bigging up is.

Tom Holland (10:42)

Oh, I think throughout this Chamberlain is definitely bigging himself up a bit. I don't there's any doubts about that. In Chamberlain's version of the conversations he is always the star and he is playing Hitler, whereas I think in reality.

Nadia Yada (10:56)

It'S the other way around.

Tom Holland (10:57)

It's the other way around, yeah. Anyway, they agree Chamberlain will go back to Britain, will talk to his cabinet and Hitler says fine, I'll wait for that and I won't order any precipitate military action. And so Chamberlain goes off and he goes down and stays at a hotel down at the bottom of the mountain in Berchtesgaden. Now Chamberlain thinks, great, I've got a good result. Hitler, once Chamberlain's gone, is delighted and he's rubbing his hands with glee, literally rubbing his hands and he says to Ribbentrop, well I've got Chamberlain to give me this Sudetenland. He says, it's win win. If the Czechs refuse and won't go along with this, then we'll have a war. And if they say yes, then I'll take this to Dayton land and maybe I'll just come back for the rest of Czechoslovakia later.

Nadia Yada (11:38)

And they all think that Chamberlain is a fuddy daddy old bloke with an umbrella, don't they?

Tom Holland (11:42)

They do.

Nadia Yada (11:43)

They're all kind of laughing at him and thinking he's ridiculous and does doesn't Hitler does kind of make an offer, say that he might go to London, but he's worried that, that he will be heckled by British Jews.

Tom Holland (11:55)

He'll be poorly treated in his own mind. Exactly. So he never does say that never happens. No, I think probably best for British. For Britain's image that we never had Hitler over.

Nadia Yada (12:04)

He went to Liverpool, didn't he?

Tom Holland (12:06)

Yeah. So the thing about Hitler's offer here, right, is that it is quite a departure from what he previously wanted. Up to this point, he's been talking about the Sudetenland merely as a pretext to get the whole of Czechoslovakia.

Nadia Yada (12:21)

He doesn't just want the Sudetenland, he wants to break up the whole of Czechoslovakia.

Tom Holland (12:24)

But now he's saying, well, maybe I will just take the sedate inland and I'll come back for Czechoslovakia for the rest later. So to that extent, he has kind of slightly blinked. Anyway, Chamberlain goes back to London, everyone says, oh, you've done brilliantly. Well done. What a tremendous man you are. And he goes straight in to brief the cabinet. And here I think it's sometimes tempting to just be unremittingly hostile to Chamberlain, but here is a point where I think it's very difficult to be anything but hostile because he clearly has completely misread the situation because he says, I've met Hitler, I'm absolutely convinced that Hitler's objectives are strictly limited. He says, I believe Hitler when he says he only wants to bring German speakers.

Nadia Yada (13:06)

It's like George Bush gazing into Vladimir Putin's eyes.

Tom Holland (13:10)

Yeah, seeing.

Nadia Yada (13:11)

Yeah, seeing his son.

Tom Holland (13:13)

This is exactly what he says. He says, well, in spite of the harshness and ruthlessness I thought I saw in his face, I got the impression that here was a man who could be relied upon when he had given his word. I mean, given what we know about Hitler. So they know about the light and the long knives, they know about the Anschluss, they know all this. That's a mad thing for Chamberlain to say.

Nadia Yada (13:34)

Yeah, well, also the other thing is, what about the Czechs at this point? Because, you know, they're not present at this meeting which is deciding the fate of their country. So again, I kind of looked this up and checks. So leading Czechs are describing everyone involved in this in kind of very understandably, very abusive terms. So they describe Sir Horace Wilson as a sow. They refer to the French foreign Minister as the swine. So there's a lot of kind of porcine based imagery. Yeah, they, they, they refer to Chamberlain as the Old Man. And one of them writes, the Chamberlain government is treating our head of state as if he were n word chieftain ruling some troublesome colonial tribe.

Tom Holland (14:19)

Yeah, the Czechs, they Feel absolutely furious.

Nadia Yada (14:21)

And they're right. I mean, the Nazis are obviously beh. In a very colonial manner that the British are as well. Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, let's draw a line in the map here and whatever.

Tom Holland (14:28)

Yeah. I mean, you could say exactly, if you're Czech, listen to this podcast. You're like, the British are behaving with complete arrogance here. They're just basically signing half our country away. I mean, that's the story of Munich, isn't it? The Czechs, the story the next few days is actually really simple. The British, with very enthusiastic French backing, say to the Czechs, right, you've got to give them the sedate and land. And I know you can't. You probably shouldn't even organize a referendum.

Nadia Yada (14:51)

Just.

Tom Holland (14:52)

Just hand it over. That's the quickest thing to do.

Nadia Yada (14:53)

So here's my question. Couldn't the Czechs have fought on anyway? They've got all this industrial hinterland. They've got arms. They've got this incredible Maginot Line in the mountains. Very, very impressive. Which they will lose if they hand over the Sudetenland because it's. It's on the flank of the Sudetenland. Why don't they just fight? Particularly because the German economy is on the point of collapse at this point, because.

Tom Holland (15:20)

Well, first of all, they don't know that about the German economy, but also they will lose. The Germans have done their war games. They're pretty confident they can win in.

Nadia Yada (15:28)

A matter of weeks, but they're going to lose anyway.

Tom Holland (15:30)

I guess they think they're being put under enormous pressure by their supposed friends. Be reasonable. Give them the Sudetenland. It's full of German speakers anyway.

Nadia Yada (15:39)

But the thing is, with. With those defenses, they would have had perhaps a chance.

Tom Holland (15:44)

Yeah.

Nadia Yada (15:44)

If they surrender those defenses, they haven't got any chance at all. I mean, they're.

Tom Holland (15:47)

You know, Tom, you're quite right. You are quite right. And lots of listeners to this podcast will no doubt say you were right. I think it's because they think, given that we'll lose either way, maybe if we get an international guarantee, we give them the Sudetenland and then we get a guarantee by the French and the British.

Nadia Yada (16:03)

I mean, you've made comparisons with Russia and Ukraine. I mean, everyone in the west assumed that Ukraine would lose the moment the Russians crossed the border.

Tom Holland (16:10)

Yeah.

Nadia Yada (16:11)

The Czechs seem in a stronger position to me than the Ukrainians.

Tom Holland (16:14)

Yeah. And the Czechs. The Czechs are arguably in a stronger position than the Poles were a year later for sure. Poland, that took about a month. Could the Czechs have held out for two months or longer? I mean, ultimately, I think the Germans would have won. And the Czechs with no allies, that's.

Nadia Yada (16:30)

A big ask, I suppose. And they've got the Hungarians and the Poles sniffing around as well, haven't they?

Tom Holland (16:35)

Yeah. Your neighbours fancy a bit of you as well.

Nadia Yada (16:37)

I just wonder though, because, I mean, the tragedy of this is that they. They are very, very impressively defended.

Tom Holland (16:43)

Yeah.

Nadia Yada (16:43)

They have to give all that up.

Tom Holland (16:45)

Yeah, of course, of course. Because what happens is that basically after a few days, they give in under unrelenting French and British pressure. On 21 September, they get a message from Prague. The Czechoslovak government sadly accepts the French and British proposals, but they say that on the condition that you will do everything to safeguard our vital interests, I.e. the sudezone will be given away, but you will maybe give us a guarantee or give us a pledge or give us something anyway. Yeah.

Nadia Yada (17:13)

Which would obviously not be worth the paper it was written on.

Tom Holland (17:15)

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? So meanwhile, what's Hitler been doing during all this? He has been doing his usual thing, which he does when he's stressed. He has massive lions, watches these terrible.

Nadia Yada (17:25)

Films, works out holes in flagpoles.

Tom Holland (17:27)

Exactly. Does all this kind of thing. He thinks that the Czechs probably won't give him what he wants, but he now, having seen Chamberlain, he thinks, hey, that guy's not gonna fight. That guy's never gonna go to war. So he says to Goebbels, I think we can probably push for a bit more, actually. I think, I think let's. Let's up the ante. So let's get to the 22nd of September. Now we welcome back to the Rest is History.

Nadia Yada (17:50)

Yeah.

Tom Holland (17:50)

A great theme of all our series about Germany between the wars, which is the spa hotel theme. So people will remember we had a lot of spa hotels in the last.

Nadia Yada (18:00)

Season, particularly the Night of the Long Knives, wasn't it? Which was all based in spas. Pretty much weddings and spas.

Tom Holland (18:06)

Well, it's like a fan favorite location. We're revisiting one of the knights of the Long Knives spa hotels because the next meeting between Chamberlain and Churchill is scheduled for a spa hotel in Bad Godersberg on the Rhine river near Bonn. So swims of sulphur. Yeah. Enormous sweating Germans beating each other with.

Nadia Yada (18:27)

Birch twigs or whatever they call water.

Tom Holland (18:29)

Yeah. Drinking like filthy water, laughing at nothing. Just dreadful. Anyway, Chamberlain lands at Cologne. Cologne Airport just after midday. He's got his umbrella. As is traditional, he has to inspect a detachment of SS troops. Then he's driven to this hotel on the right bank of the Rhine, the Petersberg Hotel. It's been decorated for him by Ribbentrop, who stuffed it, I read, with fruit, cigars, hydrangeas and eau de Cologne.

Nadia Yada (18:57)

So common.

Tom Holland (18:58)

So, yeah, exactly like. You turn up and there's a load of overcloud. That's common, that's Nikki.

Nadia Yada (19:04)

Haslin would hate that.

Tom Holland (19:05)

Hitler was on the other bank of the right at fan favorite the Dresen Hotel. This was where he had planned the murder of Ernst Rome.

Nadia Yada (19:12)

So happy memories for him.

Tom Holland (19:14)

But he's in terrible form, Tom. He's all nervous. Chamber's coming. The journalists, journalists are there. The place is swarming the press. And they see him straight looking strained and twitching. And it's at this point that they start a rumor, some of the press, the German press actually, that he choose the carpets. So they nickname him the Tepik Presser, which means the carpet biter. And this becomes a big nickname for Hitler in the kind of 1930s, 1940s among the press. People say, oh, Hitler. It's always biting the carpets anyway, so Hitler's there biting the carpet. Finally, Hitler. That afternoon, Chamberlain comes over to the spa hotel, to the Drayson. Chamberlain's delighted with himself. Chamberlain thinks, well, I've done a brilliant thing here. I've done a great bit of work. The checks are given in. You can have the Sudetenland. We will give a guarantee to the Czechoslovakia for the rest of its borders. And he says, maybe it would be a nice thing if you signed a non aggression pact with Prague as well to show your good intentions. And then job done, we can all go home. Hooray, Brilliant day's work. And Hitler says, I'm sorry, actually I've changed my mind. The circumstances have changed and I have more demands. He says, my friends in Hungary and Poland also have territorial demands on, on Czechoslovakia and I need them to be satisfied. And actually, now that I think about it, I don't really want to wait for the Czechs to give me the Sudetenland because they're mistreating our people every hour. I'm actually going to send in, I would like to send in my army right now, please. That's my plan. So I'm actually just going to go for it. And Chamberlain, he sits there and the kind of blood drains from his features. He says, yes, but Reich Chancellor, exactly. He is outraged by this. And he basically storms off back to his hotel and refuses to come out again. So they're in their kind of rival hotels.

Nadia Yada (21:08)

Power play.

Tom Holland (21:09)

Very, very much. Chamber doesn't show up the next day. The next day's. He sends a power play a letter instead.

Nadia Yada (21:15)

And he says, a firmly worded letter.

Tom Holland (21:18)

Firmly worded letter. He says, British public opinion will not stand for this. This is very poor. He says, also, the Czechs will fight you if you try to go in without a deal. Hitler sends him a letter back, quite a polite letter, actually, by Hitler's standards. And eventually they agree that they will meet that evening. So back at Hitler's hotel, Chamberlain goes in and Hitler says, I changed my mind, actually. They can have four days. They've got to be out on the 28th and then I'm going in. They've got to be out, otherwise it's war. And Chamberlain's very shocked at this. And then another twist. We do like a twist in this series. A man comes in with a note for Hitler. Hitler opens this note and he says, my God, the Czechs have mobilized their army. And there's this long silence. And Chamberlain apparently thought that Hitler was just going to go absolutely berserk and order an invasion right then and there on the spot. And then Hitler says, fine, they can have a bit more time. They have to be out by the 1st of October. I'll give them more days.

Nadia Yada (22:26)

Because this seems the great tragic moment. The Czechs have shown their determination, they've mobilized, they've presumably occupied all these fortresses. It just seems awful that they then just surrender it.

Tom Holland (22:41)

Yeah. You're taking this very personally, Tom, and not unreasonably. I mean, it's a terrible thing.

Nadia Yada (22:45)

I mean, it's a terrible story. And we behave so badly, although obviously not as bad as the Nazis.

Tom Holland (22:49)

But it's important to stress that I think we're not the chief villains in this.

Nadia Yada (22:55)

No.

Tom Holland (22:55)

And of course, Hit sells this to Chamberlain by appealing against Chamberlain's vanity. He says to him, this concession that I'm making that they can have till the 1st of October, I'm only making this for you because of how much I respect you. I wouldn't make this for anybody else. And of course he loves this because he thinks I am the star of the show. I have once again pulled off this coup. So Chamberlain goes back to London, Hitler goes back to Berlin. Hitler spends that next day, which is a Sunday, strolling in the gardens, the Reichstransler Goebbels. And he says, look what we're going to probably end up with now is we'll get the Sudetenland, we'll probably have to leave it at that and then we'll come back next year or whenever for the rest of Czechoslovakia. Meanwhile, Chamberlain is meeting his cabinet and many of them are actually really shocked. They're much more shocked than Chamberlain was that Hitler had been asking for more. Hitler had kind of changed the, the terms of the game and they say, well what we'll do is we'll send to Horace Wilson, to Chamberlain's kind of right hand man, civil servants send him back to Berlin and we'll tell Hitler, look, we'll stress to him you cannot attack the Czechs, we have to get the deal. If you use force at all then the French will enter the war and Britain will support France. They are taking a firmish line off.

Nadia Yada (24:14)

And they, they're starting to kind of get ready for war themselves, aren't they?

Tom Holland (24:18)

They are.

Nadia Yada (24:19)

So the French are kind of sending troops up to the Maginot line.

Tom Holland (24:21)

Yeah.

Nadia Yada (24:22)

There is a sense that France and Britain are gearing up to, to take a strong position.

Tom Holland (24:28)

Yes, absolutely there is. 26, 27th of September. This is when they start making really serious preparations. You know kind of anti aircraft batteries are being called up and there's thoughts.

Nadia Yada (24:38)

About evacuated people from cities, gas master children and things.

Tom Holland (24:41)

Exactly so. Exactly. So the next day, Monday the 26th, Horace Wilson gets to Berlin. He gets there in the afternoon and he finds Hitler in a very peculiar mood because Hitler is going to got a big speech that evening at the sport palast in Berlin.

Nadia Yada (24:55)

Sport again, it's his endless PE theme.

Tom Holland (24:58)

Yeah, exactly. It's going to be all these people in the stadium, indoor stadium with medicine balls. Hitler's going to address 20,000 people, is going to address them and Hitler, Hitler's in a very, you know, sort of grumpy mood and he says to Horace Wilson, I'm sick of all this like negotiations and hotels and stuff. He says basically the checks have to be out by the 1st of October and or if they're not, I'll attack them. And he says, and I quote, if France and England want to strike, let them go ahead, I don't give a damn. And he says to Wilson, if do you not think that we want to fight, come and see my speech. So Wilson goes along to see this speech and Hitler is absolutely ranting and raving like a lunatic. William Shirer, the American journalist who we've quoted a few times, he was there and he said Hitler was shouting and shrieking in the Worst state of excitement I've ever seen him in with a fanatical fire in his eyes and he's screaming about German Dom and the Germans being oppressed and we will stand and fight and all this kind of thing. And his audience who are keen Nazis, go absolutely berserk every sentence. They applaud and. And at the end they chant for minutes. Fuhrer befiel, vir folgen leader command, we will follow. You know, this sort of quite chilling scene.

Nadia Yada (26:14)

So not the way that Chamberlain would address the good people of Birmingham.

Tom Holland (26:17)

Not. Not at all.

Nadia Yada (26:20)

So look, I picked up a rather nice tea cosy.

Tom Holland (26:25)

Yeah, exactly. People of Birmingham would enjoy a kind of an indoor arena. It's with a sort of. They could do it. The nec. The NEC in Birmingham.

Nadia Yada (26:33)

Villa Park.

Tom Holland (26:35)

It's not indoors though, is it? It's not the same.

Nadia Yada (26:36)

No, it's not, I suppose.

Tom Holland (26:38)

Anyway, this is spiraling off. The next day Horace Wilson goes back to the Reich chancery and he says, look, I've had a new message from Chamberlain. Chamberlain says, don't use force. If you don't use force, we will guarant. Britain will guarantee that the checks will clear out of the Sudetenland. So Britain is actually really now.

Nadia Yada (26:58)

Yeah, we're get out of your well prepared fortifications.

Tom Holland (27:02)

Yeah, Britain is letting itself down, I think at this point, Tom, it's fair to say. And Hitler actually is very sulky at this point. He says, well, I don't care what Britain does, I don't care what you do. All I care about is the checks have got to be out by the first of October. He says, look, I want an answer in two days. Are they going to clear out or not? If they do not clear out, he says, I will smash the checks. He repeats that two more times. I will smash the checks. And Wilson, who is a very tall man, he kind of draws himself up to his full height. He says, I am warning you, if you do that, and if France feels honor bound to fight in defense of its obligations to Czechoslovakia, quote, the United Kingdom would feel obliged to support her. And Hitler just stares at him with those cold blue eyes and he says, if France and England strike, let them do so. It's a matter of complete indifference to me. I am prepared for every eventuality. It is Tuesday today, he says, and by next Monday we shall all be at war.

Nadia Yada (28:02)

Yet another cliffhanger. I mean, you've promised cliffhangers and they keep coming like fire from a machine gun. From a Bren gun perhaps. So let's take a break now, and when we come back, we'll find out if Britain and Germany do end up at War in 1938. This is a paid advertisement from BetterHelp 2025 has arrived. And looking ahead, I see nothing but opportunity. Feats of daring do on sporting fields across England. And I feel this sense of optimism and hope because Every January brings 1,365blank pages waiting to be filled. Life isn't about resolutions that fade by February. It's about picking up the pen and becoming the author of your own life. And Dominic Therapy can become your editorial partner, helping you to create that meaningful story you deserve to live.

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Nadia Yada (29:15)

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Catty (29:34)

Hi everyone. It's Catty here from the Rest Is Politics us Anthony Scaramucci and I want to tell you about our new series that looks at one of the darkest days in modern American history, the capitol riots of January 6th.

Anthony Scaramucci (29:47)

You know, four years have passed since Donald Trump supporters stormed the Capitol building and tried to overturn the 2020 election results. And Katie and I are going to explore the tensions and the personalities at the heart of that storm.

Catty (30:01)

Yeah, we're going to look at the whole story, starting off with, of course, the 2020 election result itself. Joe Biden victory, Donald Trump's attempts to undermine that result right up until January 6th, and those horrifying scenes that all of us watched on television back then. So don't miss it. Go and search the Rest is Politics Us wherever you get your podcast to hear just how Donald Trump tried to defy American democracy. And we've included a clip from the series for you to listen to at the end of this episode.

Tom Holland (30:33)

Foreign.

Adolf Hitler (30:39)

First of all, I must say something to those who have written to my wife or myself in these last weeks to tell us of their gratitude for my efforts and to assure us of their prayers for my success. Most of these letters have come from women, mothers or sisters of our own countrymen. But there are countless others besides from France, from Belgium, from Italy, and even from Germany. And it has been heartbreaking to read the growing anxiety they reveal. If I felt my responsibility heavy before. To read such letters has made it seem almost overwhelming. How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of a quarrel in a faraway country between people.

Nadia Yada (31:43)

Of whom we know nothing.

Adolf Hitler (31:46)

It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war. But as long as war has not begun, there is always hope that it may be prevented.

Nadia Yada (32:02)

And you know that I am going.

Adolf Hitler (32:04)

To work for peace to the last moment.

Nadia Yada (32:10)

That is Neville Chamberlain, of course. Unmistakable tones addressing the British people on the night of 27th September 1938 with a great rousing piece of oratory that deserves to stand beside the address of Henry V before the battle of Agincourt. The colors rung up by Nelson before the battle of Trafalgar. Ringing stuff.

Tom Holland (32:36)

Yeah, I mean, he's not, listen to that.

Nadia Yada (32:39)

Yeah, he's not the most stirring of.

Tom Holland (32:41)

No, no, listen to that. You're not gonna like, you know, reach for your gun and rush to rush to the battlefront, are you? I mean, Chamberlain, you know, he was never a war leader. He said explicitly, I am a man of peace to the depths of my soul. Armed conflict between nations is a nightmare to me. He's completely upfront about that. And frankly, if you've been through the Great War, of course that's a completely reasonable position to take.

Nadia Yada (33:05)

Because that famous line, how horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing. Very famous phrase and always used to condemn him. But I mean, there he is absolutely articulating what the mass of people in Britain feel.

Tom Holland (33:21)

Yeah.

Nadia Yada (33:21)

And that when Churchill, for instance, who is the most famous Antiopeza, says that what Britain is contemplating is shameful, they don't want to hear him say that.

Tom Holland (33:30)

No, I think that's absolutely right. I think because people probably deep down know that it's shameful and yet at the same time they think we must do anything to avoid a rerun of the Great War.

Nadia Yada (33:44)

Be worse, wouldn't it? But they think it would be. It would be. London and other cities would burn is what Exactly.

Tom Holland (33:49)

Exactly. Now, even as as Chamberlain is, is preparing that speech, people are queuing up for gas masks in British town halls and village halls. The first children, blind children, are being evacuated from London. They've installed anti aircraft batteries on Westminster Bridge. There is this sense that a war that nobody wants is coming and will, will happen within days. Interestingly, the mood in Germany is very similar. So that same day, the 27th, that Chamberlain made that speech, Hitler had arranged for a motorized division to pass through Berlin towards the Czech border. And this was basically he wanted really to impress the diplomatic corps with Germany's readiness for war and Germany's war enthusiasm. And there's an amazing description of it by William Shirer, the journalist we mentioned a lot, and he talks about how the motorized division goes through the tanks or the arm cars or whatever they are, and people won't look at them, people turn away, they duck into the subway, they don't cheer. There is total silence. He says it was the. One of the most striking demonstrations against war that I've ever seen. And actually, you know, Goebbels and the Nazi High Command, they're all quite disappointed with the Berlin reaction.

Nadia Yada (35:01)

But actually, even in the Nazi High Command, there is massive anxiety, isn't there? Say Ribbentrop is all, you know, he's all in favor of it. But other members of the Nazi High Command are thinking, oh, not really. Not sure about this.

Tom Holland (35:13)

Yeah, war with Britain and France, really, are we ready?

Nadia Yada (35:16)

And also in the. The German army, I mean, they're really nervous about it. So the figures on that is that on Germany's western flank, they are hugely outnumbered by the French army.

Tom Holland (35:28)

Yeah, as they would be in 1939.

Nadia Yada (35:31)

But in 1939, the, the ally, the Western Allies did not have an independent Czechoslovakia with strong frontier defenses.

Tom Holland (35:39)

That's right. Well, we'll see about this. Point about the Nazi high command is a really important one. And, and it's about to produce another of these twists in the story. So the next day is Wednesday, 28th September. The House of Commons in London holds an emergency debate. And at this point, most people think we will probably be at war within could be within hours. Not even. Because if Hitler gives the go ahead, France will feel honour bound to defend Czechoslovakia and we will feel honor bound to fall in behind France. So Chamberlain's giving this enormous speech, this slightly plodding speech to these fellow MPs, explaining the whole backstory, all the negotiations with Hitler, all been for nothing, all this kind of thing. And then there's an amazing, I mean, it really is an amazing moment. He has passed a note. It kind of comes down the chain.

Nadia Yada (36:25)

Along the bench, a piece of paper.

Tom Holland (36:27)

Piece of paper. So John Simon, who's sitting next to him, hands him this piece of paper and it's news from the British ambassador in Berlin. And he stops talking, he reads it, he pauses he clears his throat, very theatrical. And then he says, I have something further to say to the House. He says, I've got an invitation. I have an invitation from Herr Hitler to meet him in Munich tomorrow morning. He's also invited Signor Mussolini and Monsieur Daladier. Signor Mussolini has accepted. I've no doubt Monsieur Daladier, he's the French Prime Minister, will also accept. I need not tell you, he says, what my answer will be, as in, I'm definitely going to go. And when people hear this, there's this colossal roar of relief.

Nadia Yada (37:15)

Peace in our time.

Tom Holland (37:16)

I mean, people are literally shouting because people credit Chamberlain with this, right? They say he wanted. He called for peace to the last moment and Hitler has blinked. And they are cheering, they're waving their order papers. They. People are literally shouting, thank God for the Prime Minister. Hurrah for the Prime Minister and all this kind of thing. And what the debate is brought to a premature conclusion. People are crowding around Chamberlain. They pat him on the back. And actually the last person to go up and shake his hand is Winston Churchill, who says to him, godspeed. And off he. Because he's going to go off on this mission to try and bring peace to Europe. And actually what lies behind this is an intervention from a character who's, you know, who's well known to our listeners. He's been very quiet in the last few episodes. I think it's fair to say he's been off hunting a bad man, but a memorable man because we finally. Welcome back to the Rest Is History, the sweating white suited bulk of Hermann Goering.

Nadia Yada (38:19)

So it's around this time that the Italian foreign Minister bumps into Gurring and finds in him a slight suggestion of.

Tom Holland (38:25)

Al Capone, which is so guring at this point is an absolutely enormous man. If you see him in this suit, the suit is like multiple sizes too small for him.

Nadia Yada (38:35)

He's got all kinds of diamond studded tie pins in the shape of swastikas and things.

Tom Holland (38:39)

Yeah. So Goering, who's a, who's a sweaty man as it is. He's been sweating like a beast for the last few days because he's in a massive funk about the idea of a European war.

Adolf Hitler (38:49)

War.

Tom Holland (38:49)

He thinks the European war is bonkers. We're going to get the Sudetenland. What do we want to fight France and Britain for? He hates Ribbentrop with an absolute passion. He keeps saying to Ribbentrop, stop asking for a war, you fool. And at one point they have a massive row. Goering Says, well, I know what war is. He says, if Hitler wants a war, I'll be on the first plane over Britain. But he says to Ribbentrop, but I'll make sure you're strapped in next to me on that plane. Imagine if you were on that plane with what a terrible nightmare that is. Who am I going to be seeing.

Nadia Yada (39:22)

So large, isn't he that crashed the plane.

Tom Holland (39:25)

I'm in the middle of the three between Goering and Ribbentrop. What a nightmare. Anyway, what actually happens? Goering goes behind Hitler's back, he sends messages to Mussolini and informal messages to London and Paris. And he says to Mussolini, I think you should call. If you call for a peace conference, you're Hitler's ally. Hitler will have to go along with it. And actually, if Mussolini calls for a peace conference, it's a brilliant way for Hitler to kind of back down a bit on the war thing without losing too much face. He will look like a person who, in the final analysis, was prepared to be reasonable because he gave in to his great pal's request. And so this is exactly what happens. Earlier that day, the Italian ambassador had gone to see Hitler and said, oh, the Duce thinks you could postpone the invasion, have one more meeting with the British, invite the French along. And Hitler's kind of trapped. You know, he can't when he could ignore Mussolini completely, but that would risk his alliance with his biggest ally in Europe. So Hitler says, yeah, fine, whatever.

Nadia Yada (40:31)

No.

Tom Holland (40:32)

All right. So that is the cue. That is what. That is what lies behind the infamous Munich Peace Conference, which begins the very next day. And I think at this point we've been leading up to Munich, but it's actually worth pausing to make a point that I think is. So it's often lost if you've been listening to all their story, it should be obvious at this point that Munich is not the great turning point, because.

Nadia Yada (40:54)

The betrayal has already happened.

Tom Holland (40:56)

The British and French have already basically told the Czechs to give over the Sudetenland and made it very clear they will not fight for the Sudetenland. So actually, what's happened at Munich is not Chamberlain and de Latier backing down, it's Hitler backing down. It's Hitler not forcing his war on the Czechs and on the world because of Goering and Mussolini going behind his back. It's not. Chamberlain's not going to give away anything that he hadn't given away weeks earlier, actually.

Nadia Yada (41:24)

And this is fatal for Hitler's willingness in future to listen to anything that Goering has to say on foreign policy. So he calls him an old woman, doesn't he?

Tom Holland (41:32)

Exactly, he does.

Nadia Yada (41:33)

Furious about it.

Tom Holland (41:34)

He's. Yeah. Hitler feels cheated. And this will run through the rest of this episode and indeed next week's episodes, Hitler's sense of being cheated of his war. Now, Chamberlain doesn't get this at all. Chamberlain still thinks I'm the star of this story. I mean, everyone in Britain kind of treats him like he's the star of the story. When he flies out the next day, the whole cabinet comes to the aerodrome to see him off. The high commissioners of Australia, Canada, Ireland and South Africa, they all come to see him off. Godspeed, good luck, all that kind of thing. Like, they think he is the architect of this, which he absolutely isn't. And Chamberlain loves it. He says he has this quotation to the cameras. When I was a little boy, I used to repeat, if at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again. That's what I'm doing. When I come back, I hope I will be able to say, as Hotspur says in Henry iv, out of this nettle danger, we pluck this flower safety.

Nadia Yada (42:30)

Of course, Hotspur lost the subsequent battle.

Tom Holland (42:34)

He did indeed.

Nadia Yada (42:35)

So not a good omen.

Tom Holland (42:36)

It's not a good omer. But on the other hand, it's kind of nice to think that we once had prime ministers who would randomly quote from Henry iv.

Nadia Yada (42:43)

Yeah. Imagine Starmer doing that.

Tom Holland (42:44)

No, no, I can't see a Starmer doing that. So as soon as he lands in Munich, the conference opens. Straight away. They're meeting in Hitler's Munich headquarters, the Fuhrerbau, it's called, which is this huge neoclassical building that was built especially for the Nazi party. It's not a hotel, but it's basically got that vibe. It's got that vibe. It's full of kind of marble and flowers, and I'm sure Ribbentrop has sprayed.

Nadia Yada (43:07)

It with Eau de Cologne champagne.

Tom Holland (43:10)

So the delegates all go straight up to Hitler's private study, and they're sitting around these sort of little table beneath the portrait of Bismarck.

Nadia Yada (43:19)

And presumably there's a famous conference, isn't there, where Disraeli goes.

Tom Holland (43:23)

Yeah, Berlin.

Nadia Yada (43:24)

And Disraeli is seen as the guy who has bearded Bismarck in his lair and sorted Europe out. And I get that must surely be on Chamberlain's mind that he's totally playing.

Tom Holland (43:34)

That role, because that's where the peace with honor, peace in our time line comes from. He's quoting Disraeli after 1878. I think it was. So they're around this table. Hitler is there, Mussolini is there. Edouard de Ladier, we haven't mentioned him. He had actually fought at the Battle of Verdun, so he's a serious person, but he's very, very miserable. Throughout all this, everyone said he looked like a snail, which I can kind of see, actually.

Nadia Yada (43:57)

I gather Hitler and Goebbels thought he was more impressive than Chamberlain, though, did they? May not be saying much, but no, they thought he was. Yeah.

Tom Holland (44:03)

Well, I mean, who would. Who would ever disagree with Hitler and what tremendous judges of character they are.

Nadia Yada (44:11)

But they'd have a sense of who they thought were.

Tom Holland (44:13)

I suppose they would, yeah, they would. Now, of course, the people who aren't there, the Czechs. No one's invited the Czechs. Hitler has said there's no way the Czechs are coming and the Czechs are outraged at this. And Chamberlain said to Eduard Benesh, the Czech president, well, I'll represent you. I mean, that's like classic British arrogance, isn't it? The conference. Actually, I didn't really know this about the Munich Conference until reading up on it. It was a complete shambles. It was German efficiency. It was not. They didn't have enough pens and pencils, they forgot to bring any paper. It was a complete mess. And the phones didn't work properly. Ribbentrop was going mad about the phones not working. He said it was a great embarrassment for Germany and the British had to go back and use the phones in their hotel because the phones didn't work properly. Anyway, as we said. I think the weird thing about the Munich Conference is so well known, but it's such a non event because it's basically just kind of nothing to decide, really. They've decided. They've already decided. Hitler's going to take this Sudetenland. Britain and France are going to let him do it and that's it. And it takes them 13 hours to go through all the technicalities. Chamberlain and Ladier are obviously a little bit downbeat. Hitler's just bored. He doesn't speak any language but German, so he can't understand what's going on. But I'll tell you who does speak a lot of languages, who's a real master of tongues like you. Very. Like me. Very similar people.

Nadia Yada (45:29)

Journalist.

Tom Holland (45:30)

Yeah.

Nadia Yada (45:30)

A certain strut.

Adolf Hitler (45:32)

Thanks.

Tom Holland (45:32)

Yeah. Physical resemblance. I mean, come on. Mussolie speaks German, he speaks English and he's fluent in French. So Mussolini is like doing a bit of translating. He's having a great time. Is that how he's doing it. He's doing it like a guy from a restaurant in New Jersey.

Nadia Yada (45:49)

Yeah. Welcome, welcome. Un bienvenue.

Tom Holland (45:53)

So at about 2 o'clock in the morning of the 30th of September, the deal is done. The Czechs will have 10 days to get out of the Sudetenland. 10th of October, the Germans will march in.

Nadia Yada (46:03)

And when you say the Czechs, I mean, you mean it's not just the Czech army, it's literally the Czechs.

Tom Holland (46:08)

Well, this is unclear, Right. A lot of Czechs flee the Sudetenland. It's not laid down that they have to.

Nadia Yada (46:13)

And they're not being offered any compensation or anything?

Tom Holland (46:15)

No, no, I don't think so.

Nadia Yada (46:16)

I mean, that seems a bad deal.

Tom Holland (46:17)

It's a terrible check. It's not a bad deal.

Nadia Yada (46:19)

I see no positive there.

Tom Holland (46:21)

It's a very bad deal. Anyway, the deal is done. There's no point in you complaining about it now. They bring out. They say there has a brig signing. Hitler dips his pen in the special inkwell that he has to sign the deal. There's no ink. There's no ink in the ink well. Ribbentrop's face furious. Another.

Nadia Yada (46:36)

What was the make of that?

Tom Holland (46:38)

Yeah, another. Another disaster for Germany. And actually I looked, I watched the final scenes, the pathe newsreels on YouTube. Hitler looks exhausted. Mussolini is having a brilliant time, clearly, but actually the person who's also loving it is Gering Goering is in this unbelievably tight white space and he's kind of cracking jokes and slapping people on the back and stuff because of course, this is. He regards this as a victory for himself.

Nadia Yada (47:03)

Although he's big mates with Sir Neville Henderson, the British ambassador. They've gone out shooting.

Tom Holland (47:07)

Exactly. He's having a wonderful time. Hitler, though, is very gloomy and despondent. He's. He's actually not got what he wanted, which was his war. And the next day he has one last meeting with Chamberlain. They're obviously very tired because they've been up until very late. Chamberlain goes in to see him and.

Nadia Yada (47:24)

Chamberlain, this is where he presents his piece of paper.

Tom Holland (47:26)

Piece of paper. Chamberlain surprises.

Nadia Yada (47:28)

We will be friends forever and everyone will be happy and the flowers will come and everything.

Tom Holland (47:34)

We promise that we will never go to war. Britain and Germany will never go to war again with each other again.

Nadia Yada (47:38)

No fairy will ever die again.

Tom Holland (47:41)

Now, in Robert Harris's novel about Munich, which is brilliant, he presents this as quite as you know, Chamberlain isn't clearly emotionally invested a lot in this piece of paper, if nothing else, it actually is actually a useful political prop because I think it is important that piece of paper in, in the decline of appeasement, stiffening British, stiffening British resolve. Hitler has made an explicit promise that he goes on to break. And so I think it does. It is an important. The piece of paper. Hitler at the time sees the piece of paper, he's baffled by it. He thinks it's complete waste of time. He says, sure, I'll sign it. I mean, I don't care. And he signs this piece of paper and Ribbentrop says to him afterwards, what was that piece of paper? And Hitler says it was of no significance whatsoever, which I think is wrong. I think it really mattered in terms of British public opinion because this is the piece of paper that Chamberlain waves when he gets back to, back to Heston Aerodrome. The paper that bears his name upon it as well as mine. You know, the promise, the promise with.

Nadia Yada (48:40)

Honor, peace for our time.

Tom Holland (48:41)

Which is of course what Chamberlain says when he comes back. And he's greeted by great crowds and he's invited onto the balcony at Buckingham palace and he's the absolute hero of the hour in Britain and indeed in the English speaking world more generally. There are messages from America, from Australia, Canada. Well done.

Nadia Yada (48:59)

But presumably not from Prague.

Tom Holland (49:01)

But not from Prague at all. The news of the deal reached Prague on that Same morning. So the 30th of September, President Bene was in having a bath when the news was brought to him and he said, very presciently, he said it's a betrayal which will be its own punishment. They think they will save themselves from war and revolution at our expense. And they are wrong. He did think about fighting anyway. So this is your answer to your question. The Czechs did think about fighting anyway and they thought about asking the Soviet Union for their help. And eventually they decided, look, we're bound to lose. We're not going to condemn our people to so much suffering. And they said, Bene said, we've been defeated not by Hitler, but by our friends, our so called friends. There are huge demonstrations in Prague, people saying don't do it. But of course they do do it. The German army crosses the border just as Hitler had planned. Huge crowds of Sudeten Germans throwing their flowers and giving Nazi salutes and all this kind of thing. And here's the answer to your other question about the Czechs. So there's a huge population flight from the Sudetenland by the time the Germans crossed the border, about 25,000 Czechs had already fled. And in the next few months, leaving their possessions, leaving everything. You know, the classic thing of people with their thing on carts, wheelbarrows and things. Exactly. And in the next two months, another 150,000 people, including obviously the Jewish population of suites, who know exactly what Nazism will mean for them. This was a catastrophe for Czechoslovakia. They lost 3 million people. They lost 11,000 square miles of territory, they lost a fifth of their industrial production. And crucially, they lost those frontier defenses that you've been talking about, which have now fallen to the Germans without a single shot being fired. So if the Germans do want to finish the job, if they want to go into the deeper into Bohemia, nothing to stop them at all. What is worse or as bad, Hungary and Poland both nibbled at the borders of Czechoslovakia and took more bits as. We'll talk about the Polish bit next week. And Czechoslovakia, the whole balance of it, was kind of upset. So the Slovaks demanded more autonomy, Basically, they end up with a much weaker, more federalized country. There's a Czech bet, there's an autonomous Slovakia and the Far East. There's a bit called Subcarpathian Ruthenia, which is now in Ukraine, Ukraine which is kind of a Ukrainian majority. And there the German consul is basically the big man. So, in other words, the process of dismemberment has begun and Hitler can basically move in to claim the rest whenever he fancies it.

Nadia Yada (51:41)

And obviously this is terrible news for the Czechs, but it's also. I mean, it's not great news for the conspirators and the German High Command, is it?

Tom Holland (51:48)

No. So that plot which we talked about last time, Ludwig Beck, Admiral Canaris, Oster, all these other characters who are thinking about moving against Hitler, that's completely fizzled out. Hitler's done it again, another foreign policy coup. So, you know, there's no mileage for a conspiracy against him. And they say Chamberlain saved Hitler. You know, we would have moved against him. Whether that's the case and whether it would have worked, I don't know. But they definitely think that Chamberlain saved Hitler.

Nadia Yada (52:15)

And that is the last coordinated conspiracy against Hitler within Germany until 1944.

Tom Holland (52:21)

Until 1944. It's a kind of ancestor of the Stauffenberg plots, which is what slightly leads me to think it probably wouldn't have worked, because, of course, the Straussberg plot fizzles out within it.

Nadia Yada (52:30)

Well, it might. I think it might have worked had the Czechs held out, had. Had this resulted in kind of economic meltdown, which was you know, coming. Anyway, obviously, the absorption of Czechoslovakia means that economic meltdown is staved off. But the. I. I think. I think circumstances might have been different.

Tom Holland (52:47)

Well, we never know, will we? I mean, that's the thing as it is. People across Eastern Europe in particular think, you know, Hitler, Hitler wins. Hitler is the master now. So two countries in particular, Hungary and Romania, from this point onwards, they basically say, well, it's not much point in this. All the French trying to build all these alliances, they're a complete waste of time. They never fight it for you. Hit. You know, we want to be in with the Germans. They're the big men now. But the person who isn't happy is Hitler. He wanted his war and he's been betrayed, as he sees it, by Mussolini and by Goering and by Chamberlain.

Nadia Yada (53:24)

But he has stared into the eyes of Chamberlain and De Ladier and he thinks that he sees weakness and pusillanimity and cowardice.

Tom Holland (53:36)

Yes.

Nadia Yada (53:37)

And that therefore he can take them on. I mean, he calls them worms, doesn't he? Little worms.

Tom Holland (53:42)

Little worms.

Nadia Yada (53:43)

I've seen them. I've seen how contemptible they are.

Tom Holland (53:47)

Yes.

Nadia Yada (53:47)

And of course, that is not actually the right. So he is mistaken as well, because actually, when Chamberlain gets back, I mean, he does all his, you know, paper waving and going on the balcony of Buckingham palace and things, but he does also say, we've got to rearm, you know, we've got to press the accelerator on this.

Tom Holland (54:04)

Yes, he does. He absolutely does. I think in the last episode, I quoted Ian Kershaw saying about how cunning Hitler's foreign policy coups had been, how brilliantly planned, how ruthlessly the propaganda had been cranked up. What a great judge of timing Hitler had been. This is really the first point at which I think you can say his instincts completely begin to desert him. He believes his own publicity and he misreads the situation. I think you're dead right. I think he completely misreads Britain and France after this. I mean, all the stuff like, they will never fight, they're weak, all that. He is dead wrong. He's running out of time now before they do fight. And he doesn't see that. I think he doesn't see that at all. One thing about Hitler, though, he feels that the German people have let him down. He's really discomforted that there was not more enthusiasm for war in the autumn of 1938. He was shocked that people cheered Chamberlain as he drove through the streets.

Nadia Yada (55:09)

So they've let Germany down, they've let Hitler down. But Worst of all, they've let themselves down.

Tom Holland (55:12)

They've let themselves down. They've let the school down. And he says, so I wonder whether the pogrom of Kristallnacht, the night of the broken glass against the Jewish population of Germany, which happens just a few weeks afterwards in November 1938, we did an episode on it in our previous season. The violence of that, I think, and the violence for which Hitler, you know, he personally was responsible. He ordered it. I wonder at some level whether his sense of frustration that he hasn't got his war, his obsession with.

Nadia Yada (55:44)

He's like a kind of spoiled, very violent toddler.

Tom Holland (55:47)

Yeah.

Nadia Yada (55:48)

I mean, that's what you get with this lashing out.

Tom Holland (55:51)

On the second night of Kristallnacht, he has. He summons a closed meeting of German newspaper editors. And he says to them, I'm sick of all this stuff about peace, world peace, peace propaganda or peace is the most important thing. And he said, it isn't the most important thing. You know, we need war. We should arrange things. He says, So I quote, the inner voice of the people itself slowly begins to cry out for the use of force. And from this point, he is already thinking about the next conquest. This is the thing with Hitler. He just cannot. He's addicted.

Nadia Yada (56:26)

He's like a drug addict needing the next hit.

Tom Holland (56:28)

Yeah, he needs the next hit. So the next thing he thinks, I'll get the rest of Czechoslovakia. He wants a port called Memel, which was a Baltic German seaport that's now basically been swallowed up by Lithuania. But he's also now, for the first time, thinking about another target. And this would be his biggest target yet. And this would be Poland.

Nadia Yada (56:53)

Right, Dominic, thank you. Very somber, brilliant account. And we will be telling the terrible story of the build up to Hitler's war on Poland, its course and its aftermath next week. And members of the Rest is History Club will get all three episodes of that story on Monday. And if you're not a member of that club, but you would like to get those episodes on Monday, then you can sign up@therestishistory.com but either way, we will be back with the Nazi war on Poland on Monday. Bye, bye.

Tom Holland (57:27)

Bye, bye.

Catty (57:41)

As promised, here's a clip from the Rest is Politics US Miniseries.

Anthony Scaramucci (57:45)

Trump is naturally a conspiracy theorist fueler. He will fuel the fire of any conspiracy theory because he's always seen himself as an outsider and he wants to foment the people from the outside to attack the people from the inside. So he's developing these ideas that he eventually uses in January, on the 6th of January. And the ideas are, there's misinformation out there, there's lies out there. Let's use these lies as fodder to attack the people on the inside. He's doing it with COVID I think hydroxychloroquine works. You may remember this. I took hydroxychloroquine. Mr. President, you took hydroxychloroquine. Yeah, yeah, I'm on it. I took it. And this is the beginnings. This is the kernels of what's about to come. And it all starts with COVID And it leads up to this insurrection, or, as the President says, a very peaceful group of tourists descending upon the Capitol building.

Catty (58:56)

If you want to hear the rest of the show, go and search. The rest is politics, us, wherever you get your podcasts.