530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)

Summary

Summary of Episode 530: "Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)"

Podcast: The Rest Is History
Hosts: Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook
Release Date: January 13, 2025
Episode Title: Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)

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Introduction

In Episode 530 of The Rest Is History, hosts Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook delve into the intricate buildup to World War II, focusing specifically on Hitler’s aggressive maneuvers towards Poland. The conversation navigates through the annexation of Czechoslovakia, the precarious position of Poland, and the shifting diplomatic landscapes in Europe that set the stage for global conflict.

Annexation of Czechoslovakia

Göring’s New Year Address

The episode begins with a chilling rendition of Hermann Göring's New Year address to the Reichstag on January 1, 1939, captured at [02:04]. Göring extols Hitler’s leadership, proclaiming:

"These shouts of Heil sum up everything we feel within ourselves in respect to inspiration, dedication, love, and loyalty." — [02:04] Hermann Göring

Holland and Sandbrook discuss how this speech was emblematic of the Nazi regime's ability to project strength and unify public sentiment despite the regime’s dark underpinnings, including persecution and repression.

Public Sentiment in Germany

By early 1939, Hitler's popularity in Germany was bolstered by perceived achievements such as rearmament, economic recovery, and territorial expansions like the annexation of Sudetenland. However, the hosts highlight that beneath this veneer lay significant issues:

"The Inflation generated by their massive arms spending, they're only keeping at bay with price controls." — [06:09] Tom Holland

Göring’s address resonated with many Germans who felt their country was revitalized under Hitler, yet there was an underlying economic instability driven by relentless militarization.

Hitler’s Determination and Missteps

Plans for Czechoslovakia

Despite the recent annexation, Hitler was not content. Two weeks post-Munich, he instructed the Wehrmacht to prepare for the "liquidation of the remainder of the Czech state" ([07:20]). Unlike the relatively smooth annexations of the Rhineland and Austria, the takeover of Prague was fraught with tension and minimal local support.

Meeting with President Emil Hácha

On March 13, 1939, Hitler orchestrated a coercive meeting with Czechoslovak President Dr. Emil Hácha ([17:14]). Under intense pressure, Hitler demanded that Hácha declare a German protectorate over Czechoslovakia. The situation escalated when Hácha collapsed during the confrontation, highlighting the brutal methods employed by the Nazi leadership to achieve their aims.

"I have been fortunate enough to bring about." — [22:31] Hitler’s celebration post-annexation

This annexation marked a significant turning point, demonstrating Hitler’s unyielding ambition and unwillingness to consider diplomatic solutions. It also effectively dismantled Chamberlain’s policy of appeasement, compelling Britain and France to reassess their strategies.

Reactions in Europe

Germany’s Internal Response

Within Germany, the Nazi high command celebrated the conquest, while ordinary Germans exhibited varying degrees of indifference or confusion. A teenage girl's diary entry from Paderborn reflected nationalist sentiments tinged with uncertainty:

"I completely understand why we took the Sudetenland because it's full of Germans. But why are we taking over an entirely alien people?" — [26:08] Diary of a Paderborn Girl

This sentiment underscores a lack of widespread enthusiasm for further territorial expansion beyond regions with significant German populations.

British and French Policy Shifts

The annexation of Czechoslovakia served as a critical failure of appeasement. Chamberlain’s government in Britain and Daladier’s administration in France were compelled to move away from diplomatic concessions, recognizing that Hitler’s demands would not cease with further territorial gains.

"If we give him every possible chance... he just nibbles more and more and more, eventually he comes back for the lot." — [27:39] Richard Evans’ account

In Britain, Chamberlain shifted his stance, culminating in the 31st March 1939 guarantee to Poland, signaling a firm commitment to confront German aggression.

The Fragile Position of Poland

Historical Context and Vulnerabilities

Poland, reestablished as an independent nation in 1918 after over a century of partitions, was geopolitically precarious. Its rapid reconstitution split among Russia, Prussia, and Austria had left it economically fragile and militarily overstretched. Major ethnic minorities, including Ukrainians, Jews, Belarusians, and Germans, further complicated national unity ([31:15]).

"They are trapped between two much larger, much richer neighbors, both of whom regard Poland as illegitimate." — [32:05] Tom Holland

Political Climate in Poland

Under the authoritarian Sanacja regime, spearheaded by Marshal Józef Piłsudski until his death and succeeded by figures like Foreign Minister Józef Beck, Poland maintained a fragile stability. Beck, a Calvinist and staunch anti-French and pro-German figure, was both admired and detested within Poland. His handling of foreign affairs was pivotal in navigating the growing threat from Germany ([33:14]).

Hitler’s Strategic Calculations

Initial Approach Towards Poland

Initially, Hitler perceived Poland as a potential satellite state, akin to Slovakia and Hungary. However, his aggressive expansionist ideology, as outlined in Mein Kampf, left little room for diplomatic resolutions. Despite signing a non-aggression pact with Poland in January 1934 to secure his eastern flank, Hitler's disdain for Polish sovereignty remained undiminished ([37:59]).

Operational Plans for Invasion

By early 1939, Hitler had finalized plans for the invasion of Poland, known as Fall Weiss. The German military leadership, confident in their strategy, projected that the campaign would swiftly defeat Poland:

"We're going to destroy the Polish army at record speed." — [54:33] General Halder

However, even within the German hierarchy, there were undercurrents of uncertainty about the conflict's broader implications, particularly regarding potential fronts against the Soviet Union.

British Guarantees and Dilemmas

Chamberlain’s Guarantee

On March 31, 1939, Neville Chamberlain delivered a historic guarantee to Poland, pledging British support should Poland face aggression. This was a strategic pivot from appeasement, signaling a readiness to confront Hitler’s advances. However, the hosts discuss the practical limitations of British intervention, given the geographical and logistical challenges:

"If Hitler does attack Poland, we're probably not going to do anything." — [48:00] Military Chiefs’ Outlook

Diplomatic Efforts and Miscommunications

Chamberlain hoped to create a deterrent against further German aggression by reinforcing alliances, yet coordination with Poland and France revealed deep-seated doubts about the feasibility of coordinated military support. The Polish leadership, recognizing their inability to rely fully on British intervention, maintained a firm stance:

"We do not know the concept of peace at any price. There is only one thing in the lives of men, nations, and countries that is without price, and that thing is honour." — [46:36] Józef Beck

Toward a Pivotal Shift: The Nazi-Soviet Rapprochement

As political tensions mounted, Hitler’s inner circle began contemplating an unprecedented alignment with the Soviet Union. By April 1939, discussions hinted at a potential shift in foreign policy, moving towards cooperation with Stalin’s regime. The hosts tease the dramatic implications of this diplomatic maneuver, setting the stage for the subsequent episodes that explore the Nazi-Soviet Pact.

"He's a man that you could do business with, and that man is Stalin." — [56:06] Hitler’s Observation of Stalin

Conclusion and Forward Look

The episode concludes with the anticipation of exploring the Nazi-Soviet Pact in the next installments, promising a deeper examination of how Hitler’s strategic alliances and betrayals reshaped the geopolitical landscape, ultimately igniting the Second World War.

"What happens, of course, in Nazi occupied Poland will raise all kinds of questions about evil and the absence of good." — [54:05] Reflection on the Historical Impact

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Notable Quotes:

1. Hermann Göring ([02:04]):

   "Words to express our gratitude to you simply defy us... To our dearly beloved Fuhrer, the Creator of Greater Germany."

2. Paderborn Girl's Diary ([26:08]):

   "I completely understand why we took the Sudetenland because it's full of Germans. But why are we taking over an entirely alien people?"

3. General Halder ([54:33]):

   "We're going to destroy the Polish army at record speed. We're going to stop the British intervening."

4. Józef Beck ([46:36]):

   "Peace, like almost all things of this world, has its price, a high but a measurable one. We do not know the concept of peace at any price. There is only one thing in the lives of men, nations, and countries that is without price, and that thing is honour."

5. Hitler on Stalin ([56:06]):

   "He looks like a man that you could do business with, and that man is Stalin."

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This detailed exploration by Holland and Sandbrook not only traces the critical events leading up to the invasion of Poland but also provides nuanced insights into the motivations, strategies, and miscalculations of the key players involved. The episode serves as a compelling narrative for those seeking to understand the complex interplay of diplomacy, ideology, and ambition that precipitated one of history’s most devastating conflicts.

Transcript

[Tom Holland]

Thank you for listening to the Rest is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series and membership of our much loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club that is thereestishistory.com.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

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[Herman Goering]

Malfehrer. Your comrades of the first hour are seated before you, willing to follow your lead loyally as one united whole to stride forth at your side in the future. Also suffused by the single desire to follow you blindly towards the attainment of the greatest of victories, the victory of our great German Volk. You have led us onward to victories unfathomable. You have restored to us a life worth living, a life splendid and magnificent. It was you who created Greater Germany. How feeble are our expressions of gratitude. Words to express our gratitude to you simply defy us the cries with which we jubilantly hail you presently, Mein Fuhrer, these shouts of Heil sum up everything we feel within ourselves in respect to inspiration, dedication, love and loyalty. Comrades, to our dearly beloved Fuhrer, the Creator of Greater Germany.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So that Dominic was Herman Goering, who you've put down in your note, you've described as a sinister man, mountain. And I hope that I adequately conveyed your kind of instructions there. He's a gentleman of size, isn't he? And I hope that that came across. This is going out early in January, and that was actually his New Year address to the Reichstag on the 1st of January, 1939.

[Tom Holland]

That was how Goering welcomed the New Year, Tom. And of course, always like to welcome the New Year with. With the company of Nazis, terrible people. So New Year 1939, and Goering there, I think it's fair to say, is speaking for tens of millions of ordinary Germans.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

They all love their Fuhrer.

[Tom Holland]

Well, Hitler is very popular. And of course, there are people who have issues with the regime of various kinds. There are things that are wrong with the regime. But a lot of ordinary Germans, I think, at the beginning of 1939 would say that Hitler's six years in power have brought a series of great achievements. They've rearmed. The worst hardships of the Depression are over. They've reoccupied the Rhineland, They've unified with Austria, and now, most recently, they have annexed this Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia. And they've done all of that without provoking the one thing that most of them fear, which is their. A European war.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

However, against that, it's not all good news, is it?

[Tom Holland]

Well, as we all know, and as is very well chronicled at the time in the newspapers of the world, there is the dark side to the Nazi regime. The concentration camps, the murders, the repression, the persecution, above all, of the Jews, symbolized by the Nuremberg Laws and the pogrom of Kristallnacht at the end of 1938. All of that is very well known. However, Hitler is genuinely popular at this point. It's a police state, of course, so it's hard to be certain. But all the evidence we have from journalists, from reports by the Social Democratic Party that were sort of smuggled to their leadership in exile, are that people are delighted at Hitler's foreign policy achievements. And had he stopped, if the 1st of January, 1939, he dropped dead, or he'd stopped right then and said, what we have, we hold, we consolidate. I think Goering's verdict, ludicrously delivered as it was, would have resonated with millions of ordinary Germans.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So can I ask you, the previous episode, we talked about how the German economy was on the brink. It was staring down the barrel of bankruptcy. And this was a huge inspiration for Conquering Czechoslovakia because it was a very rich country. Has the assimilation of the Czech economy enabled the German economy to be stabilized?

[Tom Holland]

And the short answer is no. Now, first of all, it's because, of course, they haven't assimilated the whole of the Czech economy. They've only taken this Sudetenland, which is what, about a fifth of Czechoslovakia's industrial capacity. But actually, after they've done that, November 1938, Goering says to the rest of the Nazi high command, do you know what? We're actually in a terrible mess. So exactly as you say. Tom Goering's four Year plan, as it was called, was predicated on constant conquest, on the constant acquisition of new resources, new labor, all of this. And actually the wheels are about to come off and they're only keeping inflation at bay. So the inflation generated by their massive arms spending, they're only keeping at bay with price controls. And as lots of people listening to this podcast will know, once you get into that world of kind of price controls to stop inflation, you're often in a bit of a death spiral, a kind of economic death spiral. And actually Goebbels writes in his diary in December 1938, the financial situation of the Reich is catastrophic. We must look for new ways. It cannot go on like this. And the obvious answer is, well, we just acquire new territory, we acquire new resources, just take stuff from if we haven't got enough workers, if we don't have enough currency, enough tungsten or whatever.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It might be, we're factories. We just nick the factories, everything, take.

[Tom Holland]

It from somebody else. And of course the other thing that is propelling Hitler onwards, Hitler cannot stop. I mean, this is the thing. He is not an ordinary dictator. He is not even an ordinary German nationalist. AJP Taylor, very famously and controversially in his book on the origins of the Second World War, published I think in the 1960s, said, well, Hitler was just a common or garden German nationalist. His goals were those of German nationalists down the decades and the centuries. That obviously is wrong, completely wrong. Hitler had said all this stuff in Mein Kampf and all his speeches in the 1920s, all of this stuff about nature, the law of struggle. We talked last time that quotation about, you know, people have to fight, well.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Races, more specifically, isn't it that there's a racial logic at play in Hitler's mind that if the Germans don't continue fighting, then stasis is not a possibility. They will lose, they will be defeated, they will be destroyed.

[Tom Holland]

So there's the thing that clearly separates him from another dictator of the same period, like a Franco or a Salazar or somebody like that in Spain and Portugal.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But I guess not. Not necessarily a Stalin, though, interestingly, because Stalin also, as a communist, dreams of the whole world going communist.

[Tom Holland]

Yes, he does. There's like a revolutionary dynamo inside Stalin. But Stalin is clearly much more pragmatic than Hitler is. Stalin doesn't have Hitler's Wagnerian urgency, I suppose, which we know that Hitler has. And this of course, is one reason that Hitler is so disappointed when Munich doesn't give him a war and he's particularly disappointed we ended last time. He is so disappointed with the German people. They've let themselves down because they were against war and they cheered Chamberlain because they thought he was a peacemaker.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And for Hitler that suggests that they're on the road to degeneracy.

[Tom Holland]

Yes. So the longer you leave it, of course, the more degenerate they might well become. Of course, the longer you leave it, the more likely it is that Britain and France will rearm and it'll make also that Germany's economy will fall to pieces. So he really feels like that window is kind of closing all the time and he must move now.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I mean, just to ask you on this thing about the economy, do British and French observers, I mean, do they have analysts who are pointing this out that if we just leave it another year, the whole regime will implode economically? Because I've never actually read that in any account. No, the preparations for war. Whereas that today, you know, in a similar situation, people talk about in terms of, you know, Russia.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Against Ukraine or Iran or whatever. The sense that economic warfare can be as effective as, you know, tanks and planes.

[Tom Holland]

No, I don't think they do have that sense, Tom. I've never read anything that suggests that they do. Foreign visitors, when they go to Hitler's Germany are struck by what they think of as his economic miracle. I would say they're like, oh, gosh, he's found the magic trick. He's put all these people back to work and Germany is humming again and everybody is happy and the streets are clear and all of that kind of thing.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Springtime for Hitler.

[Tom Holland]

Springtime for Hitler. Exactly. I think there's much more of a sense of that, actually, and a sense of great self doubt in the democracies that maybe democracy doesn't really work, maybe dictatorship is the future. So, no, I don't think there's anything like that sort of sense. So beginning in 1939, I think it's fair to say that Hitler is Determined to get his war sooner or later. The accent very firmly on sooner. And the most obvious unfinished business is in what he would call, what everyone calls at the time, Czecho Slovakia. It has been renamed after Munich. So it to emphasize the fact that it has become a bit unglued and that the Czech and Slovak parts have become unglued. So if you remember from last week, Hitler didn't just want the Sudetenland, he wanted the lot. And he feels cheated that that fellow Chamberlain has spoiled my entry into Prague.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He said, is it not passing brave to be a dictator and ride in triumph through Prague?

[Tom Holland]

Exactly, yeah. That's part of his kind of Wagnerian fantasy inner life, isn't it? He sees himself riding up to the castle as a conqueror. So just three weeks after Munich, Hitler says to the Wehrmacht, to the German army, please draw up plans now for the liquidation of the remainder of the Czech state. Now, the thing about this, of course, which reminds us how unusual Hitler is, is anybody else would say that this was completely unnecessary. Czechoslovakia is now no threat to you. You can really turn it into your puppet eventually. You don't need to risk everything by swallowing the rest of it. It's just supine at your feet. But he wants to have his conquest as a matter of pride. Secondly, I think, as we talked about last time, he really, really hates the Czechs. He's hated them ever since his days in Vienna before the First World War. And there is that economic thing that you talked about, Tom, so that they have, the big Skoda works, they have all this foreign currency. They've got loads of gold and they've got this massive military arsenal. They have enough weapons in Czechoslovakia for 20 divisions. So that is about. If you think there's about 15,000 men in a division, I mean, that's a hell of a lot of guns.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It is.

[Tom Holland]

And the Czechs have them, and their guns are better than anybody's. They've been made in this. In Pilsen, in this massive factory, and they're brilliant. And Hitler for Hitler, there is no question in his mind he's going to come back and get the lot. So straight away in the new year, as soon as the. That Guring's splendid oration is kind of the last. Echoes are dying away. Hitler starts to lay the groundwork with the Army. He does three big speeches, 18 January, 25th of January, 10th of February, where he meets groups of officers, starting with the younger ones and then moving up to the senior commanders. And he says to them, you know, he's completely explicit to this point. He says, I want to make the German right the dominant power in Europe. I want to ditch the democratic, pacifist, defeatist mentality that I associate with Weimar. At one point he says to these guys, the German heroes of the past embraced brutality, meaning the sword if other methods fail. It is time for Germany, and I quote, to stake its claim to the domination of Europe. So this isn't the talk of revising the Treaty of Versailles?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

No, it's not the kind of thing you could discuss with Neville Chamberlain.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, A sympathetic journalist from the, from the Daily Telegraph. You couldn't lay out these plans and hope to get a warm reception in the drawing rooms of Britain. And then the final one is at the Kroll Opera House. His senior commanders. And he says to them, look, I am determined to get this living space in the East. And he says, as long as I live, this thought will dominate my entire being. I will never draw back from the most extreme measures and I will need you to put your fervent trust in me. So there's no doubt about where all this is leading. This sort of slightly apocalyptic, you know, teenage boy planning and conquering the world, sort of Alexander the Great style vision. It's not hidden.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

No. Well, this is the hundredth anniversary of the publication of Mein Kampf and it had been evident all these years. Yeah, I mean you only had to read it to know what his plans were.

[Tom Holland]

I mean this is the amazing thing, by the way, about Chamberlain's self delusion. There's that phrase that people say, isn't they, they say it on social media when they're trying to be nasty to somebody. They say when somebody shows you who they are, believe them. I mean, Hitler had showed people who he was for 20 years and people continued to underestimate him and to not believe him. But it's pretty open anyway, 13th of February he tells his aides, right, we're going to do this. Let's start with Czechoslovakia and let us finish the job now. It's going to be easy. The Czechs we talked about a lot last time. You were very agitated about this, Thomas. Erica.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Very agitated. I mean they've got all these guns and they've got all their defenses and they've all been about terrible.

[Tom Holland]

But they've abandoned their fortified border positions in the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia has federalized itself. So he can basically use the Slovaks. He's going to use them as his pawn to kind of pull the whole thing apart. So the Slovak leader is a guy called Monsignor Joseph Tiso. And Tiso is a kind of Catholic priest, he's ultra conservative, he's anti Semitic, he's been the prime minister of the Autonomous Slovak Region since Munich and he has terrible relations with the government in Prague and they're always falling out. And on the 9th of March they have a big row and the Prague government says, we've had enough of you, mate. And they send their police into Bratislava to dissolve Tiso's cabinet. And Hitler's like watching this and he says, oh, this is absolutely brilliant. This is the pretext we need. And he says to his inner circle, well, we'll strike on the Ides of March. Hitler loves a bit of a classical.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It's like you, Tom, he's deliberate. He deliberately phrases that like that.

[Tom Holland]

Yes, exactly, he does. He references the Ides of March himself. Isn't that nice?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So stabbing the Czechs in the back.

[Tom Holland]

Stabbing the Czechs in the back. On 13 March, Tiso is flown to Berlin. This Slovak priest, Hitler, says to him, right, I want you to declare independence and I want you to put Slovakia under German protection. And Tiso actually says, really? German protection? And Hitler says, well, if you don't, I'll give Slovakia to Hungary. The Hungarians can't wait to get Slovakia back. So make up your mind. Tisa goes back to Bratislava and slightly sort of, you know, under duress, he proclaims Slovakian independence, but he doesn't follow through with the next part of it which is calling for German protection. Hitler thinks this is very poor, so he sends German warships down the Danube, they train their guns on Bratislava and that's it. And basically they say to Tisa, like, well, will fire on you unless you ask for our protection. Tiso asks for their protection. So the Czechs have been watching all this. Now the Czechs, Benelu, he was left after Munich, so they have a new president and he's called Dr. Emil Haakha. And he is not the ideal person to take on Hitler. He's a lawyer, very experienced, he's in his late 60s. He's a very clever and gentle and kind of cerebral man.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, amazed to read in your notes that he translated Jerome K. Jerome's Three Men in a Boat into Czech.

[Tom Holland]

He did.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And a less Nazi text. Yeah, I find hard to think of.

[Tom Holland]

That stuff with the dog and the cheese. Brilliant.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And the picnic hamper.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, amazing. And I heartily recommend Three Men and a Boat to our listeners. But I mean, it's not. You don't want an expert on Three.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Men in A Boat doesn't prepare you for confronting the Third Reich.

[Tom Holland]

No, it does not. Although you could say all of Britain had read Three Men in a Boat and we defeated the Third.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

They're right, Tom, that's true.

[Tom Holland]

So maybe it does. Who knows? Maybe if more Czechs had read Three Men and A Boat, the story would have ended very differently. Right. We shouldn't laugh about this because it's a very tragic story. Hacher, his daughter and the Foreign Minister travel by train to Berlin. He's asked for a meeting with Hitler. Takes them five hours and they arrive in the evening of the 14th of March. Hitler behaves. He's a very poor host, I think it's fair to say. Hitler keeps this guy Hacher waiting.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

This is his standard approach, isn't it, when brow beating foreign leaders whose countries he's about to take over. Same with Austria.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, exactly the same. He keeps him waiting in this hotel. Always hotels with Hitler. What is it with Hitler and hotels? Keeps this bloke waiting in a hotel for ages while he is finishing watching a film, a comedy, I think, called Ein Hofnungsloes Fall, which means A Hopeless Case. An ominous, ominous title there for the Czechs. Finally, at midnight, Hitler says, right, I finished the film, get this bloke over to the right chancellery. So Haakha is brought to the Reich Chancery and there they make him inspect the Guard of Honour, have all their.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Guns and stuff and their steel helmets.

[Tom Holland]

And a sort of humiliation for him.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Do they have the skulls at this point?

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, there's probably a lot of skulls, to be fair. The Kaiser had all sorts of uniforms with skulls on, didn't he? So even great associates, the rest is history, have kind of got a bit of skull decoration. At 1am, Haacker is shown into Hitler's massive study, the Reich transfer. And it's absolutely rammed to people. So all the bad guys are there, Ribbentrop's there, Goering is there, Wilhelm Keitel, the General is there and Harker. This guy is very, very nervous.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Is he polishing his glasses as they steam up?

[Tom Holland]

He undoubtedly isn't thinking about Jerome K.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Jerome thinking wistfully about comic songs.

[Tom Holland]

Exactly. Hitler launches into this massive rant against the Czechs. He says, I've had enough of you, you know, you're terrible people. And to protect our security, I'm going to impose a protectorate over Czechoslovakia. I'm going to absorb it into the Reich and it'll become a protectorate of Germany. My troops, he says, are on their way Too late. They can't be recalled. They're going to cross your border at 6 o'clock in the morning. I want you to ring Prague, tell your people to offer no resistance and if they offer any resistance, we'll kill you and we'll crush them. And Goering, he chimes in for good measure, he says, oh, my air force, the Luftwaffe will be over Prague by dawn and it's up to you whether they bomb your city into dust or not. It's your call.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Presumably, though, Hitler doesn't want Prague bombed into the dust because he wants the castle.

[Tom Holland]

And, no, I don't think he does. It's not exactly an empty threat, but it's pure blackmail. And at that, I mean, incredibly, although not incredibly, you might say, Haker collapses. He just collapses. He falls to the ground in a dead faint. Some sources say he may well have had a heart attack at that point. And he drops to the ground. And the Nazis are. They're actually quite thrown by this because they're terrified that everybody will say they've murdered him, which is very bad PR for them to murder the President of. Yeah, it's a very bad look. Of course, Hitler's doctor, Dr. Morell, who's the guy who's always giving him cocktails of amphetamine.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Amphetamine. So he's. He gives them some speed.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, he's on hand with an injection. They managed to bring Hacha back to life, get him back up. He says, oh, fine, I'll ring Prague. He goes to ring Prague. It's very like the Munich conference.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Telephones don't work.

[Tom Holland]

The phones are working and the Luftwaffe.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Are heading towards Prague.

[Tom Holland]

At this point, Ribbentrop has a massive strop at this point, a massive meltdown. He says, oh, my God, the phones never work here. It's like Britain in the 1970s. The phones aren't working. Nothing works here. Everything is rubbish. You know, he's kind of ranting and raving. Actually, he's being a bit harsh on his own phone system. It turns out the problem is actually with the exchange in Prague, not with Berlin. So Ribbentrop is being too harsh towards German telephone engineering.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He's talking Germany down.

[Tom Holland]

Why does Ribbentrop hate Germany? Sad.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Shocking.

[Tom Holland]

Anyway, finally, Haacker does get through to Prague and he says, okay, don't fight, don't fight, don't resist. And at 4 o'clock in the morning, under tremendous pressure. I mean, it is a really, really tragic scene. He signs a declaration that he is putting his people under the protection of The German Reich. So Haacker kind of collapses again. Hitler is absolutely overjoyed.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And this is the first proper annexation that has no kind of pretense that we're irredentism. No, these are German, you know, we're taking them back. This is out and out kind of.

[Tom Holland]

Colonial conquest, pure colonial conquest. And Hitler is probably as excited and happy about this as he's been about anything. Cause he goes in to see his secretaries. They're called Christa Schroeder and Gerda Daranowski. And he famously says to them, one of them, I can't remember which one it is, tells the story. He goes in, he says so children to the secretaries. And he points to his cheeks of his face, he says, I want each one of you to give me a kiss here and here. This is the happiest day of my life. What has been striven for in vain for centuries I have been fortunate enough to bring about. I will go down as the greatest German in history.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He's no longer crippled by self doubt at this point.

[Tom Holland]

No, it would seem, I think it's fair to say he's not scribbled by self doubt. So two hours later, right on time, the first German units crossed the border into their new protectorate. Again. This is the first time that they have not been greeted by cheering crowds. So that again is a reminder how different this is from the Rhineland or from Austria or even the Sudetenland. There's nobody cheering, there's nobody with flowers, there's nobody saluting. By and large, the Czech people stay indoors. They're horrified. It's a misty, snowy day. It's a funereal atmosphere. Hitler crosses the border later that day by train. Then he transfers to this kind of fleet of Mercedes cars.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And now he can go to Prague, which is kind of what he'd wanted all along, right? I mean, his ultimate object.

[Tom Holland]

He's got his arm outstretched in the salute. As he passes all his troops, who are columns of troops heading into Czechoslovakia. He reaches Prague. Night has fallen. He goes right up to the castle. If anyone's been to Prague, amazing. Dominates the city, dominates the city. The kings of Bohemia, holy Roman emperors. Rudolf II had been there. Goes up. The castle is dark and abandoned to his great displeasure. It's like when Ted Heath became Prime Minister and arrived at number 10 Downing Street. There's no food. This was the case, Tom, in 1970. There's no food at the Prague Castle in 1939. And Hitler sends his military escort out to find food. They bring back ham and bread and some Czech beer lager. Hitler doesn't like the beer, which is madness, because Czech beer is very good. He says it's too bitter, not pleased at all.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So to add to Hitler's many faults. Yes, an inability to appreciate Czech beer.

[Tom Holland]

Yes, exactly, exactly. Add that to the charge sheet. He issues this proclamation which he says, the Bohemian and Moravian lands have belonged to the living space of the German people for a thousand years, which is not really true. And he says now they've been reunited with their masters.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Those are kind of the Habsburg words, aren't they? Those are the words that the Habsburg Empire had used.

[Tom Holland]

Bohemian Moravia. Yes, exactly.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And they nick the. The crown jewels, don't they, and take them back.

[Tom Holland]

They do indeed.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

To Germany.

[Tom Holland]

Yes, they do. The Bohemian Moravia becomes part of the Reich. The Slovak State becomes, under Monsignor Tiso, becomes a kind of clerico, fascist puppet state of Germany. And the last bit of Czechoslovakia, which is over in the east sub Carpathian Ruthenia, is taken initially by Hungary and then it actually ends up being part of Ukraine in the Soviet Union later on, and remains Ukrainian to this day. So the Czechs never get it back. And a first in the protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia there is a sort of pretense of autonomy, so that there's still a Czech president, there's still a Prime Minister and so on the Czech courts. But over time, of course, all this begins to disappear. Jews are repressed, the state's assets are plundered. And it really becomes worse when Heydrich from the SS becomes the Deputy Protector in 1941.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And then he gets shot, doesn't he, in their terrible reprisals.

[Tom Holland]

Exactly. So Hitler returns to Berlin in triumph, sort of Roman style, like a conqueror. Great crowds. Goering is there with kind of great tears on his fat face.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And now everyone's happy. Everyone in Germany kind of happy, are they? Or.

[Tom Holland]

Well, this is the interesting thing, right, so the Nazi high command are happy. Nazi true believers are very happy. They've got a conquest. But for ordinary Germans, I don't know that they care very much about Bohemia, Moravia. I mean, nobody thinks that these are an integral part of the Reich, like they've never been part of Germany. In his biography of Hitler, Ian Kershaw quotes a teenage girl from Paderborn.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Oh, where the Pope went to meet Charlemagne.

[Tom Holland]

Right, Exactly. I think this is from a girl's diary. The girl's mother said, is he never satisfied? You know, can't he get enough? And the girl herself writes in her diary, she says, I completely understand why we took the Sudetenland because it's full of Germans. But why are we taking over an entirely alien people, that's those, er, words who cannot possibly be turned into Germans. Because, of course, the 1930s, it is an age of nationalist thinking, you know, when ethnic nationalism is so important to people, it constructs the way they view the world. So for Germans who've been brought up on ethnic nationalism and linguistic nationalism, to suddenly have all these Czechs in the Reich doesn't make any sense. What are they doing there?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And I suppose also more Jews.

[Tom Holland]

And, of course, more Jews. Exactly. Which will be even more the case when we turn to Poland later on. And even Nazi party reports themselves slightly, sort of reluctantly said, most people are actually pretty. They don't quite understand this. They're grudging, they're even critical. They don't understand why it was necessary. Richard Evans, in his book on the Third Reich, he quotes a worker who said, we're always winning these days, but we were always winning once before. And that came to a bad end. So, in other words, there is a slight sense of foreboding about all this. I think this is Hitler's first really, really serious misstep. Because I think much more than Munich, this is the moment that destroys the case for appeasement. Because if you were massively pro appeasement, even after Munich, you could say, well, we've avoided war and really, the Sudeten is not Germans. Yeah, you could say that.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And he had signed his piece of paper, hadn't he? And you were saying in the previous episode how, actually that is very important. People laugh at it, but it now enables Chamberlain, I guess, to feel, I've done my best and now I have no chance and everyone in Britain to agree with that.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, I think this is what you might say would be the revisionist case for appeasement, which is if you give Hitler every possible chance, then when the crunch comes, you will have a united country where everybody says, look, clearly we gave him every opportunity.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Apart from unity, of course, apart from unity.

[Tom Holland]

Mitford and Oswald Mosley. We gave him every opportunity and he showed himself to be a total and utter shyster.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And the same reaction in France.

[Tom Holland]

Is this absolutely the same reaction in France? So in France, Daladier, the Prime Minister, who had been there in Munich, of course, looking like a snail, looking very miserable, he says to his Chamber of deputies, right, okay, fine. It's very clear now, we have to prepare for war. And they vote him emergency powers in the nation's defence after this Moment in Britain, every newspaper, the observer, which had been a pro appeasement newspaper, had said this was, and I quote, the most shameful and ominous page in the modern annals of Europe. The brilliant diarist, the Tory MP Chips Channon. He'd been an ultra appeaser, a massive admirer of Chamberlain. No bolder, bolder departure from the written bond has ever been committed in history. The manner of it surpassed comprehension. And Hitler's callous desertion of the Prime Minister is stupefying. I can never forgive him. So, in other words, this business, I think, is not as famous, actually, as Munich or the attack on Poland, I think really, really matters. And Chamberlain at first doesn't quite get it. He gives a speech in the House of Commons that's very perfunctory and doesn't quite match the mood of the moment. But then, two days later, which is the 17th of March, he goes to give a speech in Birmingham, of course, the Chamberlain stronghold, and he clearly, by this point, has changed his tune because he strikes his hardest line yet. He says it's very clear now, Hitler intends, and I quote, to dominate the world by force. If that's right, we will stop him. He says Britain will take part to the utmost of its power in resisting such a challenge if it were made. And I think here, actually, as in 1938, he speaks for the nation. He's reflecting the public mood. You can see it in papers and letters and diaries in Britain and in France. With this attack on Czechoslovakia, Hitler really has crossed the line and there is no going back. Now we know what kind of man he is.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And so now Chamberlain's looking for, you know, he's abandoned Czechoslovakia, but is there another country where he can kind of draw a red line along its border?

[Tom Holland]

Exactly. He's saying, where are we going to draw the line? And the very next day, 18th of March, he meets his cabinet and he says exactly that, like, okay, we draw the line now. One more step and it is war. Where will Hitler's next challenge come? And Chamberlain is in no doubt. The key to the future of Europe, he says, will be Poland.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right, so let's take a break now, and when we're back, we will come at last to the country where, as everyone listening to this will know, the Second World War begins. FOREIGN welcome back to the Rest Is History. It's been a long sweep, hasn't it, this history of the rise of the Nazis. They're taking, going to power, the road to the Second World War. And now, at last, the Second World War is hoving into view because we have come to the country for which Britain and France went to war to defend it. And that of course is Poland.

[Tom Holland]

Yes. So Poland, Polish History 101. Poland had vanished from the map of Europe after 1795. For more than 120 years it had been partitioned between the empires, as lots of people will know, between the empires of Russia, Prussia and Austria. And Poland got its independence back at the end of the First World War and it's one of the largest countries in Central Europe. It's 31 million people. But Poland, unlike Czechoslovakia, is very, very rickety. So because it's been carved out of three different empires, nothing is joined up. It doesn't even have a joined up.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Railway network because they've all got different gate ages.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, exactly. It's very rural by and large. A lot of it is very poor. A lot of the. The First World War in the east was fought in Poland, so it's scarred by war. Like a lot of Central European countries, it has an issue with minorities. Basically it's meant to be an ethnic nation state, but you can't draw the boundaries perfectly.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So they don't feel that diversity is their strength.

[Tom Holland]

They do not feel the diversity is their strength. Only about two thirds of the population are ethnic Poles. So if you look at the census, there's about 4 million Ukrainians. There are 3 million people who are identified in the census as Jews. There are a million Belarus. There were almost a million Silesian Germans.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And that I guess is the key thing for Hitler.

[Tom Holland]

Of course. In fact, again, unlike Czechoslovakia, or far more than Czechoslovakia, none of Poland's neighbors like it. Everybody thinks it's illegitimate. Everybody can test its borders. And it's extraordinary thing that in the three years after 1918 the Poles fought six separate frontier wars.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, I guess, I mean if it's been reconstituted out of the territory of great empires. Yeah, great powers, then I mean that's inevitable, isn't it?

[Tom Holland]

Of course it is. They pretty much fight every single one of their neighbors, most famously the Soviet Union. They turn them back in the miracle on the Vistula when they defeat the Bolsheviks. You know, it's a terrible thing for the Poles. They're trapped between two much larger, much richer neighbors, both of whom regard Poland as illegitimate. And they are Germany and the Soviet Union.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And you would have to say that being trapped between Stalin and Hitler is not to have been served first prize in the lottery of life geopolitically, is it?

[Tom Holland]

No, it's not. To pick up an analogy that we mentioned in the last week's series about Munich. It's rather like you're on that plane strapped between Goering and Ribbentrop. And actually, things don't get any better for the Poles. They suffer massive inflation, unemployment. In the 1920s and 30s, a million people emigrate, mostly to the United States. They can't sustain their democracy, so there's a coup in 1926 by the Great wartime nationalist hero Marshall Pilsudsky. And then they have an authoritarian regime called the Sanatia regime, which means the kind of healing regime. And this is a kind of nationalist, authoritarian regime. The key person in this is probably the foreign minister who called Joseph Beck. Beck is a Calvinist, very unusually for a Pole, and he's a kind of very clever, saturnine man, but everybody hates him.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, except for Goring, I gather.

[Tom Holland]

Did Goering like him?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, he did, because Beck had served in the German cavalry, I think, Right. During the war, and was very pro German, like you. He strongly disliked the French.

[Tom Holland]

Oh, my word.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Inevitably, he disliked the Russians.

[Tom Holland]

Right. So Gerring's a funny man, isn't he? He's a strange man.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. Henderson, Beck and Guring, they'd all had a great time going, shooting things.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Can I just ask, Czechoslovakia was a democracy.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And presumably that was part of. Of why they were allies with Britain and France.

[Tom Holland]

Is it important that Poland isn't?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Poland isn't, yeah. Is that an issue?

[Tom Holland]

I don't think it's a massive issue, deep down, because of course, there are lots of countries at this point that are not democracies, and I think it would have been an easier sell if it was. But actually the French, for example. The French are very polonophile and have been for a very long time.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

They regard themselves as having a kind of special relationship with Poland. And in Britain, do people say, oh, the polls, really, they're not a democracy? I don't think they do, actually. I don't think they give it that much thought, deep down.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Anything about the polls.

[Tom Holland]

I don't they really care what kind of government they have. The interesting thing is what Hitler and the Germans make of the polls. So most Germans hold the polls in very, very low regard. So in the 19th century, when a lot of Poland, of course, has been part of the Wilhelm Ein Reich, the Kaiser's regime, they had looked down on the Poles. Germans had said, well, the polls are very backward, The Poles are very superstitious, they're very stupid. They actually had an expression, Poland Wirtschaft, a Polish business, which meant kind of Muddle and incompetence. You know, they sort of looked on them. I suppose the analogy would be how people in the late 19th century in Britain talked about Ireland actually as a kind of, you know, oh, they can never govern themselves. They're so disorganized and they're so backward and primitive and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. That's how Germans think of the Poles. Even in the 1920s, lots of Germans said, look, in the long run Poland will have to cease to exist again. There's no way we can live with a country called Poland on our eastern border. I mean, the head of the army of the Weimar Republic, General Hans von Seeckt in 1922 said Poland's existence is intolerable and incompatible with Germany's vital interests. It must and it will disappear through its own weakness and with our help through Russia.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So even then the Germans are thinking that perhaps they should carve it up with the Russians.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. Because they have done before like the partitions of the 1790s.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But even though it's actually, of course not Russia anymore, it's the Soviet Union.

[Tom Holland]

But they think, you know, it's kind of the law of nature and of history that the Poles never govern themselves. A bit like, you know, the Kurds don't have a state. They'll be one of those people who never get a state of their own.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Okay. And so one guy who's very keen on this idea that the strong must prey on the weak is Hitler. What is his take on the Poles?

[Tom Holland]

Well, this is fascinating. Hitler, who of course later on is perceived as incredibly anti Polish. He doesn't have a strong view about Poland at all before 1938. He barely mentions Poland in Mein Kampf. And the obvious reason for this is that of course Hitler is not German. I mean Hitler is Austrian. Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He's much further south, isn't he? So that's why he hates the Czechs.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. So he never really thinks about the Poles. Why would he? When he's in, in Vienna, the Galician Poles aren't massively playing on his mind. He doesn't care. Think about Warsaw and all of that kind of stuff. And actually in January 1934 he had overruled conservatives in the Foreign Office to sign a non aggression treaty with Poland because he wanted to secure his east flank.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But the, I mean people are always talking about these non aggression pacts and things.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. Meaningless.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

They are meaningless, aren't they? They're not worth the paper they're written on.

[Tom Holland]

No. Unless you're Neville Chamberlain, in which case you love a piece of paper. But I think it's fair to say Adolf Hitler is not a man who adheres to a non aggression pact. I think that's the one lesson we can all take from this, from these three seasons on Nazis.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But generally, I mean, do other powers stick by them? I mean if the Soviet Union signs a non aggression pact, for instance, I mean were that to happen.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Do they think, yeah, we should stick with this or is that kind of bourgeois legalism?

[Tom Holland]

I think it depends on the country, doesn't it? I think if I signed a non aggression pact with Stalin, I wouldn't necessarily have a great bit of confidence in his word. If I signed a non aggression pact with Neville Chamberlain, with Deladier, then you would. I would, wouldn't you?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yes, I would. But I, I mean all these non aggression pacts that everyone is furiously signing with Germany.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

The Soviet Union, I mean it just seems a waste of effort.

[Tom Holland]

They've wasted their time, Tom. I think it's fair to say.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Good, I'm glad I've got that sorted.

[Tom Holland]

Right, so what does Hitler want to do with Poland? He's absolutely, even at the beginning of 1939, I'm not sure he's thinking about attacking and conquering it. He's thinking that Poland will just be a satellite, basically turn it into a client state, which is what he does with Slovakia and what he does with Hungary. Bind Poland to him as a loyal ally in the crusade against Bolshevism. And actually you can see why he thinks he could do that. They have an authoritarian nationalist regime. The Poles had rather let themselves down at Munich.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. So Hitler's given them a chunk of Czechoslovakia.

[Tom Holland]

He has the old Silesian Duchy of.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Teschen, not the Silesian Duchy of Teschen.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. The Czechs and the Poles had fought each other for this in 1919 and the Czechs had got it and then the Poles snatch it back at the end of 1938.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

This actually makes them all pretty pro German, doesn't it? And they all kind of rush around war, sort of shouting out, long live Hitler.

[Tom Holland]

Right. And actually there's a, there's a very famous moment. So two days after Munich they got it and the Poles went in and the Czech general who handed it over to them, he said to the Polish general, well you better make the most of this because I'll tell you what, you're going to be next. And the polls are hahaha, that will never happen. And how wrong they were. Anyway, three weeks after that moment, Ribbentrop asks the Polish ambassador, a man called Mr. Lipski to come and see him. He says, we actually have a bit of a problem that we need to discuss. You can imagine, like the blood draining from the Polish ambassador's face. So here is the problem. After the First World War, when Poland had been carved out of these empires, the peacemakers of Versailles realized that Poland wasn't going to get any access to the sea at all, because it was on the northern sort of flank of Poland. It was all East Prussia, which is German and Lithuania. And they realized that they needed to give Poland an outlet to see otherwise Germany in particular would have a complete stranglehold over Poland's trade, its exports and imports. So they had carved out this Polish Corridor, as they called it, which is quite narrow. At the narrowest point, it's about 20 miles across. It went through West Prussia, so basically dividing Germany into two parts, into the main bit of the Reich and then East Prussia and there's the Polish corridor between them.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And that's not the kind of thing that Hitler would approve of, is it?

[Tom Holland]

Not at all. Because the population of the Polish corridor is mixed. It is majority Polish, probably. I mean, this is very contested at the time by kind of rival census takers, but there's a very sizable German minority. And at the north end of this corridor on the coast is the city of Danzig, or Dansk as it is today. And there is no doubt what kind of city Danzig is. It is a hanseatic league German city. It looks kind of German now. It had belonged to Poland, it had belonged to the Teutonic Knights, it had belonged to Poland again, and then it had belonged to Prussia. The population of Danzig is definitely majority German speaking, at least 90%. I mean, you can go to Gdanska today, which I have. It's in the most amazing city to visit. It's incredibly rich architecturally and in history and whatnot. And it looks like a Hanseatic league city. However, you know, Poland needs its outlet on the sea. So what the Versailles peacemakers did was they made Danzig a free city, an independent city state under the supervision of the League of Nations.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So very Hanseatic.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, very hanseatic. It was governed by a senate of basically German Senate, but the Poles had the right to use the harbour and they were given a post office there and customs posts. And on this sort of peninsula across the harbor called the Wester Plata, which we'll be talking about a fair bit in the next couple of episodes, there was a Polish military garrison and this was a massive running sore. This was A massive affront to German nationalist conservatives, especially if you're Prussian or something.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Because Danzig is a place in important role in Prussian hearts.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, absolutely. You're like, this is a Prussian city. These people are Germans. It's not right that it's a free state. You know, it should really be part of the Reich. And who cares about the Poles? That's basically the German position. So this is what Ribbentrop says to this ambassador. He says, right, we've had enough. We want Danzig back. We also want to be able to build a motorway and a railway across the Polish corridor, which we control. We'll extend the non aggression pact for another 25 years. Tom, I know your views on aggression pacts.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Oh, that's a good deal.

[Tom Holland]

And we'd like you to join the anti Comintern pact to basically bind you into our alliance, our anti Bolshevik alliance. The Polish guy says, all right, well, I'll take this back to Warsaw, see what they say. And the Poles reply very quickly. And they say, absolutely no way. We can't allow ourselves to be cut off from the sea.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

They couldn't have built a road under the German motorway and railway.

[Tom Holland]

What, they could have undermined it with a road of their own.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I mean, you'd have bridges. You could have a Polish motorway over the.

[Tom Holland]

It's not. To be fair, it's not motorway architecture. That is the. That is the point at issue.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I'm just trying to think creatively. I'm just trying to think of ways that the Second World War could have been stopped.

[Tom Holland]

Of course you are. Neville Chamberlain joins us now on the podcast.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Just trying to think creatively.

[Tom Holland]

We're going to hear him from Lord Halifax now. Brilliant.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, because let's. I mean, let's face it. The consequences of the Poles deciding that they're going to resist German aggression.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

For Poland, it's disastrous. And for millions and millions of Poles, and especially Jewish Poles, I mean, is literally genocidal.

[Tom Holland]

Correct. They are.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But I'm just wondering whether there was any possibility of a kind of modus operandi that could have been struck.

[Tom Holland]

No. And the reason is because if they do this, they turn themselves completely into a satellite of Germany, which they are never, ever, ever going to do.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right, okay.

[Tom Holland]

They think if we give them Danzig, we totally lose control of our trade. Germany will now control everything we export and everything we import because it has to go through this port, pretty much. Or if it's going to go by land, it's got to go through Germany. So we just turn ourselves completely into a Puppet. If we join the anti Comintern pact, you know, we are on Germany's side against Russia again, we lose control of our foreign policy.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. And they're bordering Russia.

[Tom Holland]

We're not going to do that. The point is Polish independence, which they fought for, which their forefathers have fought for, for decades, for more than a century. They're not going to give that away, you know, like that. Now, Hitler at first thinks, oh, the polls, they're being very difficult. But he doesn't immediately think, I'm going to attack them. He thinks they will see sense. Eventually, he invites Beck to the Eagle's Nest. Beck goes along to the Eagle's Nest, where Chamberlain went. And Beck says, look, you know, I can't help you. Polish public opinion will not allow us to give you these concessions. At this point, Hitler hasn't yet entered Prague. So he says to his aides, well, when I crush Czechoslovakia and I enter Prague, that will frighten the Poles and they will be more cooperative. So let's see if it does. Let's go forward in time to march. Six days after Hitler has entered Prague as a conqueror, Ribbentrop again meets the Polish ambassador. And he says, right, I need Beck to come to Berlin. We're running out of patience. Our newspapers have had enough. They're really putting pressure on us. If you give us Danzig, maybe we'll give you a little bit of Slovakia. We'll get a bit of Ukraine for you or something. Tell Beck to come anyway. We'll talk to him about it. And the ambassador, five days later says, you know, Beck's not going to come. He doesn't want to come. You're not interested. He says he's not interested in anything that you could possibly offer him. And if you attack us, we'll fight you. Now, you may say, this is your point here, Tom. This is reckless. This is incredibly bold. Beck's argument and the poll's argument is we saw what happened to Czechoslovakia.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I'm aware that I am being inconsistent here because I've been encouraging the Czechs to resist.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But I suppose also at this point, the polls think that they're only facing a conflict on one of their borders.

[Tom Holland]

They are indeed.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

They don't think there's any possibility of, say, an alliance between the Soviet Union.

[Tom Holland]

They absolutely don't. The Poles think, look, we saw with the Czechs what happened when you appease Hitler, when you give in to him, he just nibbles more and more and more, and eventually he comes back for the lot. The only way to Stand up to him is just to draw a red line and to say no, and then maybe he'll back off. And Beck gives this amazing speech, actually to the Sejm, which is the Polish Parliament. He says peace is a precious and desirable thing. Our generation, blooded in war, certainly deserves peace. But peace, like almost all things of this world, has its price, a high but a measurable one. We in Poland do not know the concept of peace at any price. There is only one thing in the lives of men, nations and countries that is without price, and that thing is honour.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And that's the attitude that a Prussian nobleman should respect.

[Tom Holland]

And it reflects poorly on Prussian noblemen. They don't respect it in this case. Now, Beck is confident that he can back this up because he has sent feelers out to London saying, will you back me up here, please? Will you support me? Now, we heard before the break, Chamberlain has already changed his policy and he thinks we need to deter Hitler. And his military chiefs are quite keen on an alliance with Poland because, of course, what they want is, if there's a war with Hitler, they want Hitler to be fighting on two fronts, west and east.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But of course, there's no, I mean, real practical possibility of British armed aid reaching Poland.

[Tom Holland]

No. And we will come to this in, in the next couple of episodes, that unfortunately, there is a difference of opinion between London and Warsaw about whether or not Britain can actually help Poland. As we shall see, Britain doesn't. Now, the French are also keen on alliance with Poland. They've got a long history of friendship. And Daladier says to London, yeah, we'll fight for Danzig. You know, that's our Red Line. That's fine. That's the context for Chamberlain going to the House of Commons on 31 March 1939 and delivering his famous guarantee that if Polish independence is threatened and if Poland resists, His Majesty's government would feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish government all support in their power. Now, you made this point just a second ago. What does that actually mean? Like, what could the British actually do? Britain is a long way from Poland and Germany is in the way. So realistically, what can we do? And actually, even at this point, Chamberlain's military chief say to him, you know what, if Hitler does attack Poland, we're probably not going to do anything. There's nothing much we can practically do to help the Poles. But I suppose what Chamberlain would say in his defense is he doesn't see this as a last step, but as a first step. So he is thinking we'll get Poland, then we'll maybe get Romania in an alliance and ideally maybe the Soviet Union.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, because that was the card that he could potentially have played over the Czech crisis. Yeah, but doesn't, I mean, that's the one card I'm guessing that Hitler would have.

[Tom Holland]

Yes, agreed. Of course, that's a very difficult card for any British government, especially a conservative government, to play. They regard the Soviet Union really as the ideological arch enemy and have done for 20 years. You know, the Bolshevik Stalin's regime, a blood soaked regime. Rumors, reports of the great terror coming out. There's been rumors of the famine in, in Ukraine and the Holodmor. You know, there are big obstacles to a deal with the Soviet Union and one of the biggest, by the way, is the Poles. The Poles, when they hear talk of this, they're like, what, the Russians? We hate the Russians. No way are we doing an alliance with the Russians.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Are the British and the French, are they. They're sufficiently alert to the fact that the Soviet Union is the great object of Nazi hatred.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, they know that. They know that Hitler has rancid and raved about the Soviet Union for, you know, more than a decade.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So the Soviet Union is quite keen on the idea of the capitalist powers fighting themselves, say Britain, France and Germany. Yeah, I mean, is there any enthusiasm in Paris and London for the notion that the Nazis and the Soviets fight each other and we just sit back and watch them?

[Tom Holland]

Yes, absolutely. Somebody at Neville Chamberlain would have said to you that's the dream, that basically they'll destroy each other. They're both terrible regimes and I hope they fight and they both lose. That's exactly what a lot of people in Britain and indeed in France would have said.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I should say, right, okay. Does the Polish alliance complicate that? Because obviously Poland lies between Germany and the Soviet Union. So if they're allying with Poland, that complicates that strategy.

[Tom Holland]

So I think at this point in the March 1939, when they give the guarantee, they realize, of course the next war is not going to be Hitler versus Stalin. The war that they're trying to avert is Hitler versus Poland. So Hitler versus Stalin is off the table as a war.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Realistically at that point, I just wonder whether they war game it. And think if Hitler marches into Poland and seizes Poland, that is then a threat directly on the Soviet Union's doorstep. I mean, that's got to provoke a response, hasn't it? Wouldn't it be better to just sit back and let these two monstrous regimes Fight each other?

[Tom Holland]

No, I don't think they think sitting back is an option at this point because they think they've sat back too much already. There's no appetite for sitting back at all at this point. All the momentum, all the kind of psychological political momentum is for deterrence. They feel they have to make a stand here and they can't just sit this one out. That's the mentality that got them into this mess in the first place, would be the argument.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Don't you think there's maybe an argument that this actually would have been a good time to apply that strategy in a kind of bleak cynicism?

[Tom Holland]

Do you know who would probably make that argument? John Charmley, the historian. John. Charlie, you're familiar with him.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

What's his name? The. The realist guy over Ukraine.

[Tom Holland]

Mearsheimer.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Mearsheimer.

[Tom Holland]

John Mearsheimer. He might make this argument, but I wouldn't make it personally. I think they were right to try to deter Hitler at the stage.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, it's not about right. It's about what's kind of cynically the most effective.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. You know who's a big fan of Mearsheimer? The realist Putinophile. Theo.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Of course he is.

[Tom Holland]

He's a massive fan of John Mearsheimer. Yes. It's one of the's worst takes, I think, in my mind anyway. That's by the by, right. Hitler hears about the guarantee to. Don't cut that out, Theo. You're better than that.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Hitler.

[Tom Holland]

It's about the guarantee to Poland. And he is stunned. See, this is Hitler misreading things, which he's doing at this point. Hitler can't believe it. He can't believe that the polls would stand up to him. And he cannot believe that the British would be so, in his mind, deranged as to give Poland a guarantee. And Admiral Canaris, the intelligence chief, was with him at the Reich Chancellor when he heard the news. And he has this description of Hitler. Hitler flew into a passion. With features distorted by fury, he stormed up and down his room, pounded his fists on the marble tabletop, and spewed forth a series of savage imprecations. Then, with his eyes flashing with an uncanny light, he growled the threat. I will brew them a devil's potion. I've always been struck by that, because it just seems such a bizarre threat to make.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I will brew them a de.

[Tom Holland]

Must be some German expression, no. Do you think, Tom?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I guess.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, it's not an expression that people are banding around in the 1930s. Hitler's been spending too much time with Wagner. That's what it is, isn't it?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, maybe. I mean, if the devil is the embodiment of evil, he does what he brews for Poland kind of, I mean, is the essence of evil.

[Tom Holland]

It is, it is. But you wouldn't make that, you wouldn't say that of yourself, would you?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I don't know. I mean, I find it striking that he talks in. I mean, I know it's just a phrase, but kind of implicit theological terms. Because in the long run.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

What happens, of course, in Nazi occupied Poland will raise all kinds of questions about evil and the absence of good.

[Tom Holland]

Absolutely. It does. So inevitably now he tells his generals to draw up their plans for war and they present him on the 11th of April with a plan for fall, Weiss case or Operation White.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So they're all colours, aren't they?

[Tom Holland]

They're always colors. Yeah, Green, white and so on. The blueprint for the invasion of Poland, which their plan is to begin in September. And the army chief of staff, General Halder, he briefs the senior officers. He says, we're going to destroy the Polish army at record speed. We're going to stop the British intervening. He says, the Poles are no serious opponents. We know we can defeat the Poles. But even at this point, Halder says to the other officers, this is not going to be an ordinary war. We are going to take the SS and we are going to take Nazi paramilitary formations with us. We must ensure that, and I quote, Poland as rapidly as possible is not only defeated but liquidated.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And do we have a sense of what that means?

[Tom Holland]

Well, we'll come to this in the next couple of episodes, exactly what that means. At this point it is vague.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So he might be talking about the state.

[Tom Holland]

Yes.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But he might, I mean, be talking about people.

[Tom Holland]

Yes, exactly, exactly. We're going to do it in three weeks, Halder says, and then we will be ready either to confront Bolshevism or to hurl our army against the West. So at this point, there is still a question mark there. After we've finished with Poland, do we go west or do we go east? And now we had a few twists last week. Here is the biggest, one of the most momentous, ominous and extraordinary twists in world diplomatic history.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, I mean, it's the greatest coup d'etre in the history of diplomacy.

[Tom Holland]

I would guess it is because it's about this point, April 1939, that some of Hitler's courtiers begin kind of quietly to discuss a U turn that would change everything. And they mention it to Hitler. And when they first mention it to Hitler, he says, I don't know about this. That would be a massive ideological shift. I'm not sure about it. And then a couple of weeks later, in early May 1939, the story goes that Ribbentrop shows him footage of another world leader reviewing a military parade. And Hitler watches this footage intently. And he's staring at this bloke's face like it said, like he had taken a fancy to him. And then at last he says, he looks like a man that you could do business with, and that man is Stalin.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, Dominic, what a twist. What a bombshell. And we will be back on Thursday to see how the rapprochement between these two mustachioed dictators with a taste for killing people works out. But if you can't wait to hear about the Nazi Soviet Pact, which will be the subject of our next episode and then our final episode, the countdown to the second World War and the tragic story of the fall of Poland, then you can hear all three episodes right now by joining the Rest is History club@the restishistory.com Goodbye.

[Tom Holland]

Goodbye.