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- [00:00]
Tom Holland
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- [00:08]
Dominic Sandbrook
Our much loved chat community, go to.
- [00:10]
Tom Holland
Thereestishory.Com and join the club that is.
- [00:14]
Guest Historian
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- [00:18]
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- [01:15]
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- [01:56]
Dominic Sandbrook
Slowly the soldiers moved with lagging steps, dreading that they had crossed the spreading globe, only to pass into forbidden realms in defiance of nature and heaven. But Hannibal was having none of it. Not for him any terror of the Alps, not for him any horror of the snows. Shame on you. He cried, to weary of fame and despair of the favor of the gods, shall we retreat after all we have won before snow capped mountains cowed and beaten by cliffs. No, comrades, no. Onwards we go. Believe me that soon we shall be scaling the walls of Rome, that mightiest power and the steep hill of Jupiter, at which all his men cheered and found their courage restored. So that was Silius Italicus. The Punica is the name of that poem. He wrote it almost 300 years after Hannibal's invasion of Italy in the reign of the Emperor Domitian. Tom, it's the longest surviving Roman poem. It was beautifully read.
- [03:09]
Guest Historian
I thought I was magnificent.
- [03:11]
Dominic Sandbrook
Thank you, that's kind.
- [03:12]
Guest Historian
Yeah, really good.
- [03:13]
Dominic Sandbrook
It's a shame I had to prompt it, but I'll take it all the same now. It's proof, isn't it, of just how deeply the experience of fighting Hannibal and the personality of Hannibal were seared into the Roman imagination. And actually you get the sense there of their massive respect for Hannibal. You know, he's not a. We talked last time about whether or not they see him as a super villain. Maybe they do, but they clearly see him as a. As a serious person, as somebody worthy of admiration as well as. As well as fear.
- [03:42]
Guest Historian
Absolutely. And they always acknowledge his supreme genius as a general. And there's a kind of certain self serving quality to that because obviously if he's the world's greatest general and they've beaten him, that redounds very well to their credit. But I think that what you see there, and also what you see in that passage from Juvenal that you read again very beautifully in the previous episode. So you've got an epic poet in the form of Silius Italicus, you've got a satirist in the form of juvenile. And what they're both fixing on in particular as emblematic of everything that makes Hannibal extraordinary, is this feat in crossing the Alps. And it makes Hannibal seem like Hercules, which is part of Hannibal's plan. That was what he was kind of going for. Makes him seem superhuman. And to climb the Alps, to fend off all the predatory barbarians that lurk in its snowy wastes, to gaze down from a mountain pass at the fields of Italy. Impossible. And yet Hannibal has done it.
- [04:45]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yep.
- [04:46]
Guest Historian
And we left him at the end of our previous episode. He's climbed all the way up the Alps. He's reached the very summit of the pass that he's been aiming for and he's telling his men, it's brilliant. Here we are, there's nothing to worry about. Italy lies below us. Let's get down there and take the fight to the Romans.
- [05:05]
Dominic Sandbrook
Exciting. So we're in 218 BC, aren't we? Second Punic War. Hannibal is. His great strategy is that he's not gonna wait for the Romans to attack him. He's gonna go for it. He's gonna get into Italy. He's gonna separate them from their allies. He's gonna. And his aim is Rome itself. An amazing ambition for a Carthaginian general.
- [05:25]
Guest Historian
And so his men, who are very kind of demoralized, they've all got frostbite, they hungry, they've been attacked by Gauls all the time, all a bit miserable when they get to this pass. Hannibal, according to Livy, gives his men a very positive briefing and he says it will be very easy going from this point on, there are no more hills to climb, a battle or two, and we will have Rome in the palm of our hands. But of course, Dominic, anyone who has climbed a very steep hill will know that actually going down can sometimes be as tough on the legs as going up.
- [05:55]
Dominic Sandbrook
This is a great act of imagination by you, which all great historians have, because you, of course, have never been to the Alps and yet you can imagine that it's very difficult to go down them.
- [06:04]
Guest Historian
Yes, and particularly with an elephant. And that's. That's the power of imagination, Dominic.
- [06:09]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, it's not just imagination. It's about your sifting of the sources, isn't it?
- [06:12]
Guest Historian
For sure.
- [06:12]
Dominic Sandbrook
Doesn't Polybius, the Greek historian, tell us that it was very difficult and lots of people fell off the mountain as they went down the hill?
- [06:18]
Guest Historian
Shall I read the passage in which he says exactly that? Yeah, so Polybius says. So this is about the descent and how treacherous it proves. The track which led down the mountainside was both a narrow and steep, since neither the men nor the animals could be sure of their footing on account of the snow. Any who stepped wide of the path or stumbled overbalanced and fell down the precipices. Yeah, and this is obviously very bad news for, I guess, for horses or elephants if they, if they slip, because they're really going to make a din. However, you know, it's got to be done. And as they go down, the snows start to kind of melt a bit and they start seeing pines and other foliage clinging to the rocks. And it all looks to be going great. And then suddenly there's a massive traffic jam and Hannibal is not at the front of the column, but suddenly, you know, elephants are piling up and horses and mules and Spaniards and Balearic slingers and everything. And so he's forcing his way through this ever narrowing path to see what the problem is. And he discovers ahead of him the debris of two separate landslides. And the first landslide has carried away an entire stretch of the mountain, so the face of the mountain. And the second one has kind of added to the general impossibility of this path that they've got to take down. And it's clear to Hannibal immediately that there's no way that the horses, let alone the elephants, can get past it. And most of his men won't be able to either. The situation is very, very tricky because there are rockfalls, there's still snow, you can't go forward, there's no detours that are possible. So it's kind of very. What is it going on a bear hunt? They can't go over it, they can't go under it, They've somehow got to find a way to go through it. Yeah. So what Hannibal does, he orders his men to retreat to a ridge that's looking over this kind of blockage of debris to clear it of snow, to make camp there. And then he thinks, well, what am I going to do? And it's been mentioned by Juvenal in that passage that you read the previous day, where he talks about how Hannibal dissolves rock with vinegar. And if there are scientists listening, perhaps they could let us know if this is actually feasible or not. But I'll report what Livy says. Livy says that the. The job that faces Hannibal is to essentially to clear away the rubble and somehow construct a new path out of the precipice, out of the kind of the sheer wall of rock, because there's no other way down, so they have to cut through the rock. And the way that Hannibal does this is he solves it by the ingenious application of heat and moisture. Large trees were felled and lopped and a huge pile of timber erected. This, with the opportune help of a strong wind, was set on fire. And when the rock was sufficiently heated, the men's rations of sour wine were flung upon it to render it friable. So that's the vinegar. The wine essentially has become vinegar. They then got to work with picks on the heated rock and opened a sort of zigzag track to minimize the steepness of the descent. And you can see why this is a feat that particularly resonates with Hannibal's enemies. And I'm, you know, I mean, to his admirers, it must have seemed an astonishing feat to carve a road out of the sheer rock. I mean, it really is the kind of the stuff of a Greek hero.
- [09:35]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [09:36]
Guest Historian
I mean, clearly there is a measure of truth to this. There clearly was a landslide, because otherwise the. I. It's hard to see why these reports would have come from.
- [09:45]
Dominic Sandbrook
So they do get down. They're very. Must be incredibly hungry at this point because they presumably have been delayed on the mountain and they've, you know, running short of rations and stuff, and it's raining and snowing and all this kind of thing. But finally they do get down, you know, and all is sweetness and light, right? They arrive in these valleys and we're told that it's sunny and the streams and they can, you know, or have a rest and sort of flop down by the side of a bank of a river or whatever. And what's the plan then? That presumably they're just going to go for it, they're going to strike south towards the sort of the plain of the. The Po, towards what's now Turin and stuff.
- [10:21]
Guest Historian
I mean, I think even Hannibal recognizes that there's an absolute need for everybody to recharge their batteries. So it's not just the men who are shattered, obviously, the horses, the mules, the elephants. You know, there hasn't been much food up on the mountains, so they're put out to pasture. The troops are given three days, R& R. And as you say, they come out kind of pretty near where Turin stands now. And it had taken them in all just over a fortnight. So 15 days to cross the Alps. And it had been five months since the army's departure from New Carthage in Spain, and the whole expedition had come at terrible cost. So by Polybius's reckoning, 50,000 infantry had left the Pyrenees, and of these, only about 20,000 remain. So over half have perished on the route. And of the 9,000 horses, only 6,000 remain.
- [11:13]
Dominic Sandbrook
Wow.
- [11:14]
Guest Historian
So what Hannibal had done was summed up later by another great general who led his troops over the Alps and was portrayed famously as doing such by David, the great painter of the French Revolution. That was Napoleon. And Napoleon, of course, very, very aware of Hannibal's example, and he said of this crossing of the Alps that Hannibal had sacrificed half his army merely to acquire his ch of battle, the opportunity to fight where he wished to. And I guess, kind of hanging in that comment, perhaps people might think, well, was it worth all the effort that Hannibal went to? Was it worth the loss of over half his army? And Dominic, you said in the previous episode, you asked, would it have been possible for Hannibal to fight Scipio on the banks of the Rhone? Yeah, he could have done that, but that's not actually what Napoleon is saying. Napoleon's comments on Hannibal sacrificing half his army to get where he wanted to, to get his field of battle, is not meant as a criticism. I mean, this is the kind of thing Napoleon did all the time. He'd sacrifice hundreds of thousands of men to get his army into the position where he wanted to fight. Because what Napoleon is recognizing and is clearly the case is that by bypassing Scipio, by refusing to meet the Romans on the Rhine, by getting into Italy, Hannibal has kept the initiative.
- [12:31]
Dominic Sandbrook
But, Tom, can I jump in and make an observation?
- [12:33]
Guest Historian
Yeah, of course.
- [12:34]
Dominic Sandbrook
We compared Hannibal, or you compared him in a previous episode to Charles XII of Sweden, a commander who has a lot in common with Hannibal and with Napoleon. You know, they're swashbuckling, they're charismatic, they captivate all Europe. They take the initiative, they sacrifice a lot of men for an advantage. And the other thing that all three have in common is they all end up losing. And they do that partly because they throw away men thinking, well, you know, vim and vigor matter more than manpower. But the Romans could have told all three of those people that manpower matters more than anything.
- [13:08]
Guest Historian
And that is exactly the challenge that Hannibal recognizes. Hannibal absolutely appreciates that it is the manpower that the Romans have that is the huge problem. And that's why he's come to Italy, because his only prospect of defeating Rome is to secure the backing of people in the peninsula of Italy.
- [13:25]
Dominic Sandbrook
Okay, that's interesting. So he's sacrificing men now to gain men later. That's his thinking.
- [13:29]
Guest Historian
Absolutely. Because his arrival in Italy is designed to terrify and intimidate the Romans, which it does. And the moment he arrives in Italy, there's a desperate summons goes from Rome to Sempronius Longus, the consul, who is in Sicily with a large task force getting ready to invade Africa that immediately gets called back. So that's one thing that Hannibal has gained, but the other thing that Hannibal's arrival does is that it hugely impresses people who are naturally hostile to Rome, of which the most significant are the Gauls, who live on the Italian side of the Alps. And Hannibal has to project the aura of a man who can genuinely defeat the Romans, because otherwise the Gauls won't rally to his cause. But if they do, you know, there are large numbers of them, it's more than possible, as we will see, for Hannibal to get the size of his army back to what it had been when he left the Pyrenees.
- [14:25]
Dominic Sandbrook
So this achievement of coming down from the Alps, something that people would have thought impossible, especially as he's done it with a load of elephants. Presumably, he knows perfectly well that as a PR coup, as a propaganda coup, nothing could be better fitted to impress the people he wants to recruit.
- [14:42]
Guest Historian
Yeah, so quote Eve MacDonald, who wrote a wonderful book about Hellenistic life. As news of his approach reached the Roman Population. It must have seemed like the coming of a supernatural force. But I think you can say the same about the Gauls, and that's just as important. So he's followed the road of Hercules, as Hercules had done. He's descended from the snowy peaks, you know, like a demigod, and he's done it with elephants. It is a stupefying achievement. And one of the measures of that is that we are talking about it, you know, 2,200 years on.
- [15:12]
Dominic Sandbrook
The elephants don't all die sometimes said they all died, but they didn't all die. Most of them survived the journey, is that right?
- [15:17]
Guest Historian
We're not told how many survived, but it seems, I mean, I mean, essentially all of them seem, pretty much seem to have survived.
- [15:22]
Dominic Sandbrook
Okay.
- [15:23]
Guest Historian
You know, again, their arrival creates such a sensation that the effort of bringing them, you know, is entirely justified, I think, just with the kind of the reverberation of the news of what he's done. So now they are the emblem of everything that Hannibal is about, really. But having said that, obviously he has lost lots of men. I mean, you know, and this potentially is a problem. But immediately, the moment he arrives, there's one tribe who are called the Insubres, who do immediately flock to his banner. And Hannibal's very keen to demonstrate to other Gallic tribes that, you know, he's a friend worth having. So he immediately takes the side of the Insubres against a rival tribe, storms their stronghold, demonstrates the fact that he's got the muscle to do what he says he's going to do. And the result of this is that more Gallic tribes across what's now northern Italy, the Po Valley, they pledged to. To join his banner. But there is a problem, which is that the vast majority of these tribes are separated from Hannibal by Scipio and his legion. Scipio, the consul, who has come from. Back from Massilia, from Marseille to try and block Hannibal's path, and is now in the way between Hannibal and the reinforcements that he hopes to get from the Gallic tribes. Is this a problem for Hannibal? Actually, it isn't a problem, it's an opportunity. Because what he is always looking for, what's key to his strategy, is engaging the Romans in battle and hopefully destroying them. And the fact that he now has Scipio's legions in his path, you know, brilliant. Bring it on. He wants to win a decisive battle against the Romans before the winter season makes it absolutely impossible for campaigning to continue. Right.
- [17:07]
Dominic Sandbrook
Because we're in late autumn at this point, presumably.
- [17:09]
Guest Historian
I mean, pretty much winter. Actually, so the winter solstice is approaching. The snows are starting to blow now in the plains of northern Italy. So there isn't long before it will become impossible. So it's got to be done in, you know, a week or two, really, after Hannibal's arrived in. In Italy.
- [17:26]
Dominic Sandbrook
Okay, so where is Scipio at this point? Scipio is approaching from which direction?
- [17:31]
Guest Historian
So he's come up from the coast, so he's coming eastwards.
- [17:36]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right.
- [17:36]
Guest Historian
And he's now blocking Hannibal's path. And the first clash between the Romans and Hannibal's men to take place on Italian soil. It happens in the Po Valley. You've got snowstorms gusting across the plains. And so both sides, because the visibility is obviously very poor, send out their cavalry to reconnoiter. And the Roman cavalry is led by Scipio himself. And he has with him his young son, Publius Cornelius Scipio, who is a figure who will feature quite prominently in the later story of Hannibal. But for now, he's a very, very young man serving at the side of his father. And they go out and they run into the Numidian cavalry. And the Roman cavalry is pretty rubbish. The Numidian cavalry is the best in the world. And so Scipio and his cavalry retreat. They cross a river called the. The Ticinus. It's clear that they have lost this kind of opening skirmish, but it's not a disaster. Rome knows that its strength always lies in infantry. Who cares if a few cavalrymen get killed? So he joins up with his. His main body of men. They zigzag round. Scipio's trying to find the best spot, you know, somewhere that's defensive, but will provide scope for prosecuting the war against Hannibal. And he. He finds it by a river called the Trebia, and he sets up camp there. And what he is doing now is waiting for Sempronius and his men to arrive from Sicily, so to unite the.
- [19:04]
Dominic Sandbrook
Two big Roman forces, because he wants.
- [19:07]
Guest Historian
To make absolutely certain that he can crush Hannibal.
- [19:09]
Dominic Sandbrook
Okay, And Hannibal is camped nearby, isn't he? Now, the question, I guess, is at this point, we're in December, and normally both armies would retreat to winter quarters. Hannibal wants to force the issue, presumably to impress. He wants to smash the Romans to impress these Gauls that he's keen to bring over to his side. Is that what he's thinking?
- [19:31]
Guest Historian
Yeah. And even the news of the skirmish at the Ticinus, where Hannibal has won, wins him, you know, huge plaudits among the local Gauls. And now that the Romans have Retreated from their path. Lots of them can come and join Hannibal's cause. Within a very short time of Hannibal's arrival in Italy and his victory at the Ticinus, he came with 20,000 infantry. He's now up to about 28,000, 30,000 infantry. With the Gauls coming in, he's up to about 10,000 cavalry. So again, you know, this sense that the Gauls are swelling his numbers. And this is a huge problem, obviously, for the Romans, because it means now that Scipio wants to force a battle as quickly as possible to try and stop the Gauls from misbehaving. But he needs to wait for Sempronius to arrive.
- [20:17]
Dominic Sandbrook
And Sempronius finally pitches up from Sicily, doesn't he? He's sent his men on this kind of forced march, and now the Romans have far more infantry than Hannibal. So I'm looking at the notes. 38,000 to Hannibal's 28,000, although Hannibal has more cavalry, and the Romans are always a little bit deficient in cavalry. But interestingly, Sempronius is also under pressure to force a battle because his consulship is coming to an end and he wants to. He wants a victory to round off his time in office. So there you have the kind of political pressures of Rome, you know, acting to sort of force the issue.
- [20:54]
Guest Historian
Yeah. So Polybius says that Scipio doesn't want to force a battle. Scipio's been wounded in the Ticinus and this has invalided him out. So Sempronius is going to command, you know, against Hannibal now. And Polybius says, oh, Scipio thought it was a bad idea to have a battle. This, I think, is because Polybius ends up a member of the household of the Scipios, and so he's always looking to cast them in the best possible life. Yeah, yeah, it's clear, I think that both consuls want a victory for the same reason, that it will redound to their glory before they have to lay down their office at the end of the year. But also, as we've been saying, they need to. To stamp Hannibal out quickly before the whole of Gallic North Italy rises up to his banner. So I think Polybius is wrong there. I think it's absolutely the Roman battle plan that they are going to force a battle. And Hannibal is fully aware of this. He knows that the Romans essentially spoiling for a fight, because we've talked before about how he has an incredible mastery of intelligence and how the Romans see this as somehow cheating, and so they end up so spooked by Hannibal's ability, seemingly to read their minds, that they claim that he's been going around undercover disguised with wigs of various colors and changes of clothing.
- [22:06]
Dominic Sandbrook
Isn't that a classic battle narrative, though, that the enemy king or commander disguised himself, you know, as a, A troubadour and something. Or something. And, and, and like Alfred the Great did this and so. And so did this.
- [22:18]
Guest Historian
Yeah, but Romans wouldn't do that. That's not at all Roman behaviour.
- [22:20]
Dominic Sandbrook
No, I guess they wouldn't.
- [22:21]
Guest Historian
So it's very kind of Punic treachery, all that kind of thing.
- [22:24]
Dominic Sandbrook
But Hannibal is clever and he's going to use their urgency against them. He knows that they're desperate to force the issue and he's going to use that.
- [22:31]
Guest Historian
Yeah, and also the fact that it makes the Romans look bad if they're not going out and fighting. No, they, they don't want to look like wusses.
- [22:38]
Dominic Sandbrook
They.
- [22:38]
Guest Historian
And again, Hannibal understands that that's a key part of their psychology, that they're always keen to attack, always keen to, to take the initiative. And so he, he works out a battle plan that makes play with that. So the scene of the first great military clash between Hannibal and the forces of the Roman Republic. So it is dawn on a very wintry morning, shortly before the. The winter solstice. The Romans are camped on the floodplain of this river, the Trebia. It's icy cold, there are gusts of sleet and it's so early that the legionaries are only just starting to stir. And then suddenly, from the sentries on the watchtower of the camp, they hear cries, the blaring of trumpets, and it's obvious that there is an enemy attack. And Sempronius himself is. Is summoned quickly to the ramparts and he looks out and he sees below that the attack is being launch by these terrifying Numidians, the much feared Numidian cavalry. And they're riding up to the camp, hurling spears, wheeling back, withdrawing, then coming back, firing more spears and so on. And Sempronius, we're told by Polybius, is convinced that this must be the advance guard of Hannibal's main army who are coming towards him. And so, you know, he doesn't want to be caught out, so he orders all his men to form ranks, to advance and to chase off the Numidians. And Scipio, according to Polybius, how accurately or not we don't know, says, hey, steady on, this could, you know, this could be a trick. You know, the legionaries haven't had their Breakfast. You know, Dominic, they got to have a breakfast.
- [24:15]
Dominic Sandbrook
I approve of Scipio. Scipio is a man of great sense.
- [24:19]
Guest Historian
But while Sempronius is saying, no, we haven't got time for breakfast, we need to get out there and crush the Carthaginians. So he orders his cavalry out to drive off the Numidians, who promptly start retreating before the advance of the Roman cavalry. And the legions, who are now in full battle formation, stomachs rumbling wistfully, thinking of bacon and eggs, start marching out into the sleety dawn across the floodplain towards the Trebia.
- [24:43]
Dominic Sandbrook
And this is personal for you, isn't it, Tom? Because you told me before we started recording that you'd had a very poor breakfast at Gregg's this morning. So this is like you're. It's no wonder that you're narrating this with such vim and vigor. I mean this is total immersion for you.
- [24:55]
Guest Historian
Yeah, I really feel for the Romans. So out the Romans go, cavalry first, seemingly chasing off the Numidians. Infantry behind, squelching through the mud down towards the. The river Trebia. The Numidians splash their way through the River Trebia. Roman cavalry follow. The infantry, you know, now have to do the same. So they, they come out on the far back. Not only have they not had any breakfast, they're now sodden, it's icy, you know, their tunics are starting to freeze to their legs. But they carry on marching forwards. They are aware that there might be a risk of an ambush. And so those on the right flank as they're advancing towards the Carthaginians are looking out for any clumps of trees because they know that there is nothing that Gauls in particular enjoy more than hiding in trees and then pouncing out and attacking in the rear. But Dominic, there are no trees. There are no trees. So I'll give you Polybius account of what there is of the landscape. The train is flat and featureless. There are no woods to be seen, only a watercourse with high overhanging banks that were densely overgrown with thorns and brambles. But obviously there's no possibility that anyone could be hiding there because that would just require supernatural qualities of deception and treachery to do something like that.
- [26:12]
Dominic Sandbrook
I think we can discount that watercourse with the, with the thickly brambled banks, can't we?
- [26:18]
Guest Historian
Yes, no prospect at all of anyone hiding there. So ahead of them now, emerging through the sleet, the sun is, I guess by this point, kind of struggling to emerge through the grey Cloud. The Romans see the Carthaginian battle line. Infantry in the center, as is traditional cavalry on the wings. And a screen in front of the cavalry, the elephants. And the elephants are a sufficiently intimidating sight. You know, this is unsettling.
- [26:45]
Dominic Sandbrook
Even if you had breakfast.
- [26:46]
Guest Historian
Exactly. The Carthaginians, the Romans start to realize, have the look of many who have had a nice breakfast.
- [26:53]
Dominic Sandbrook
Oh, no.
- [26:53]
Guest Historian
And apparently also they've protected themselves against the sleet by oiling themselves.
- [26:58]
Dominic Sandbrook
Would that protect you? I think that's laughable.
- [27:00]
Guest Historian
I always wondered about this. Apparently it is.
- [27:03]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, if you're pouring with rain outside and you went out, smeared yourself in oil, people would laugh at you, I think.
- [27:08]
Guest Historian
Well, yeah, because I suppose we have, you know, thermal underwear and things, and waterproofs, which they probably didn't have. But if you didn't, maybe you could use oil. Anyway, this is what we're told. They look good, they're glowing, they're warm, they're well breakfasted. And so when a battle is joined, you might think the Romans are already defeated. Not a bit of it. Oh, because they're just the best heavy infantry in the world. And also, of course, they outnumber the Carthaginian infantry. So they press forwards and they start doing their stuff. They start stabbing and eviscerating and slicing open the guts of the Spaniards and the Libyans and the Gauls who are facing them. And so guts start to spill out and it mingles with the mud and the slush and it becomes ever more slippery. I mean, a hideous sight. Both sides fighting increasingly desperately. But meanwhile, on the wings, first the elephants and then the Carthaginian cavalry have rolled back the Roman cavalry who were always outnumbered but just find it impossible to fight against elephants and Numidians. And then they wheel in and start to attack the flanks of the Roman infantry. So there's a slight sense in which the Romans are. Well, I mean, three sides of their formation is now kind of surrounded by Carthaginian forces.
- [28:22]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [28:23]
Guest Historian
And then Dominic, suddenly, in the Roman's rear, a terrible cry. And it is coming from the watercourse, you remember, with those brambles. And it's not just infantry that's been hidden there by Hannibal, it's horses as well. So the men have been lying there with their horses lying down. Some 2,000 Numidians, half of them cavalry, half infantry. And they've been stationed there under the command of Maego, who is Hannibal's younger brother. So in the film by Vin Diesel, I don't know who'd Play him. He's a kind of hip young gun. Maybe Tom Holland. I don't know.
- [29:00]
Dominic Sandbrook
You'd hate that, though, wouldn't you?
- [29:01]
Guest Historian
No, I'd love it.
- [29:02]
Dominic Sandbrook
You'd absolutely hate that if Tom Holland was in a film about Carthage and Rome.
- [29:06]
Guest Historian
Anyway, Mago is brilliant, tremendous commander. The Numidians think it's hilarious that they've totally outsmarted the Romans. They go crashing into the rear of the Roman infantry, who are now basically surrounded. Unsurprisingly, the Roman line wavers, buckles, and then it collapses. All discipline is gone and you have thousands of men fleeing back to the Trebia any way that they can, trying to weave their way past the. The force of Numidians in their rear. And as they retreat, this is always when armies really suffer casualties. The elephants are trampling them down, the cavalry are galloping after them, hacking them down, and the slaughter is really terrible. But it has to be said, not total, because the centre of the Roman battle line, about 10,000 men, have actually broken through the Carthaginian ranks and they wheel round and they are able to get back to the Roman camp in relatively good order. But nevertheless, I mean, it is a crushing victory. And it is a very, you know, literally chilling warning. Because it's icy cold. Yeah, to the Romans, of the genius of the enemy that they are facing. And it's chilling, I think, because it's evident that Hannibal has completely thought himself into their sandals. He's worked out the way that they think. He's worked out their strategic muscle memory. He's demonstrated his mastery of surprise and he has adopted this policy of surrounding a Roman army and then hopefully annihilating it. That was almost successful. It's just the fact that these 10,000 men had managed to break out and.
- [30:39]
Dominic Sandbrook
Sempronius and Scipio both got away. Presumably.
- [30:41]
Guest Historian
They both get away, yes.
- [30:42]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [30:42]
Guest Historian
You know, and they retreat back to Rome, kind of tails between their legs. And the news is greeted in Rome with real kind of terror because not only has he now crossed the Alps with elephants, but he's defeated two consuls in a pitched battle. So in Rome, there's immense trepidation and depression, but of course, across northern Italy, Cisalpine Gaul tribes are flocking to his banner and effectively northern Italy is now under Hannibal's control. But the question is, Dominic, what will the spring of 217 bring?
- [31:14]
Dominic Sandbrook
That's the question on everybody's lips, Tom. And the answer will be forthcoming after the break. Hannibal, continuing his advance on Rome, passed through Etruria burning and ravaging the countryside as he went, his aim being always to lure the Romans into attacking him. Sure enough, he soon saw that Flaminius was coming up fast in his rear. Hannibal continued along the road. To his left now were the hills that stretched beyond the city of Cortona, and to his right was Lake Trasimene. So that was Polybius describing the evening of the 20th of June, 217 BC. So we've moved on six months from the Battle of Trebia, and the scene is now moved from northern Italy to Etruria, the land of the Etruscans, modern day Tuscany. So we're about 50 miles south of Florence. So, Tom, what's the story? What's Hannibal doing in Tuscany? And who is Flaminius, his adversary at the Battle of Lake Trasimene?
- [32:20]
Guest Historian
Okay, so Hannibal first, he, you know, he's won this great victory at Trebia, but he then hasn't had a brilliant winter, chiefly because all his elephants, bar one, have died, which is very sad. They're just not used to the cold and the snow.
- [32:35]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right.
- [32:35]
Guest Historian
And the only one that survives is Cyrus, which is the Indian elephant with the one tusk, which Hannibal, from this point on, he's always kind of riding around on it. And also what's disappointing for Hannibal is that although the Gauls have flocked to his banner, there haven't really been any defections in the rest of Italy. And this is despite the fact that at Trebia, he had treated all his Italian prisoners with very ostentatious clemency, kind of sending them home, even as he keeps the Romans all kind of chained up as. As prisoners. So obviously the Italians are not just going to rise up and cast off the Roman yoke. And he realizes, you know, which is always, I guess he'd taken for granted, that he's going to have to invade and come down southwards towards Rome, try and bring the Romans to another defeat. And despite the fact that he's now lost most of his elephants, you know, he has reasons to feel pretty optimistic. He. So he's got all the Gauls, you know, thousands and thousands now have flocked to his army, which is pretty much back to the size that it was when he left the Pyrenees. They're back up to kind of 50,000 infantry and get 12,000 cavalry. And as ever, he's been keeping tabs on the Romans, and he thinks that things that there are looking pretty good as well. So what of the Romans? Obviously, there are still two consuls. The previous two consuls have stood down there had been new elections, two new consuls elected. One of them is stationed at Ariminum, which is now Rimini. And he's there to block Hannibal should he try to advance down the eastern side of the Apennines, you know, which is this kind of ridge of mountains running down the spine of Italy. And the other is stationed at Aretium, which is modern day Arezzo in Tuscany, to block an advance down the western side. And the consul who is stationed at Aretium on the western side is this guy Flaminius.
- [34:27]
Dominic Sandbrook
And Flaminius is not a nothing person, is he? Because he's got experience of fighting the Gauls and he's a self made man. He's not a pampered princeling. He's a man who's prospered by his own efforts.
- [34:36]
Guest Historian
Well, he's. So the Romans call him a novice homo. He's a guy who. The first of his family to reach the consulship. And generally the Romans are very keen on electing as consuls people from families who have a track record. So it's impressive that Flaminius has kind of made it to the top. And he's done this by, you know, as you said, by subduing a lot of the Gauls in northern Italy. So the Gauls in northern Italy have a real grudge against him. You know, they really, really hate him. Someone else who has a bit of a grudge against him is Polybius.
- [35:07]
Dominic Sandbrook
Okay.
- [35:08]
Guest Historian
Who doesn't think well of him at all. Says that he's a populist, a demagogue with no talent for the practical conduct of war and exceedingly self confident. And there's a slight tone of the New York Times writing about a MAGA official in Trump's cabinet about it, about Pete Hegseth.
- [35:24]
Dominic Sandbrook
That's how I'm imagining him.
- [35:26]
Guest Historian
Yeah, that's the kind of vibe I think. And so unsurprisingly, Hannibal thinks, well, this is the guy I'm going to target.
- [35:33]
Dominic Sandbrook
I mean, you would. Hegseth is the man you target, right?
- [35:37]
Guest Historian
So what he does, he moves at lightning speed across the Apennines before Flaminius even realizes what's happening. He takes a kind of a path that again, no one is expecting him to take. It's quite tough and demanding, but, you know, by this point, his men are used to going up mountains. He then advances through this very kind of marshy swampland around the river that no army had ever thought to cross. And it takes Hannibal's men four days to do it. And Hannibal himself, who rides through the swamps on, on Cyrus Elephant. He gets an eye infection and it can't be healed cause they're in the middle of a swamp and so he ends up losing it.
- [36:13]
Dominic Sandbrook
That's a hell of an eye infection. My God.
- [36:16]
Guest Historian
Yeah, it was clearly pretty serious. And so from this point on, you know, he's like Nelson. He's only got one eye.
- [36:22]
Dominic Sandbrook
Always a good sign in I think in a commander, right?
- [36:24]
Guest Historian
As with Nelson, so with Hannibal it undoubtedly adds to his allure. And there are Romans who kind of draw up lists of the, you know, generals and enemies that they faced who had one eye. There's actually a surprisingly large number but they all agree that Hannibal is the top one eyed enemy that they've had.
- [36:39]
Dominic Sandbrook
It's like an early episode of the Rest is History. History's greatest one eyed people.
- [36:44]
Guest Historian
So anyway Flavinius, you know, he's, he, he has no idea what's going on. He, Hannibal is taking roads that no one has had ever thought that he would. And so by the time that he clocks, the Carthaginians have made it into Etruria. They have passed him and are heading south towards Rome. And again to quote Polybius, the Carthaginians began to ravage the countryside. And as columns of smoke rose on all sides bearing witness to the devastation, so the Consul became ever more indignant. And the wasting of the land is obviously it's positive because it means that Hannibal can strip it bare of all its riches and its corn and its livestock and things. But it's also deliberately trying to provoke Flaminius who is the kind of guy who is very liable to be provoked. You know, he doesn't take kindly to this kind of stuff. So Flaminius doesn't hesitate. He sends word to his colleague saying, you know, cross over the, the Apennines and we'll catch the Carthaginians in a pincer movement. And he then sets off in hot pursuit. He's not at this moment aiming to force battle. He's only got two legions. He's outnumbered pretty much two to one by the Carthaginians. But as I say, you know, the, the aim is that hopefully once the other consul has crossed the Apennines then they can, they can squeeze Hannibal and, and kind of get him, surround him. So for this to work Flaminius can't afford to lose track of the Carthaginians. So Flaminius and his men are tagging the Carthaginian army. And this is the scene with which you opened in the late afternoon of, of 20 June, and the situation is ahead of Flaminius and his men. The Carthaginians are continuing along this road which is snaking past this great lake called Trasimene. Very, very wide, very deep. And on the other side of the road is, as Polybius describes it, an unbroken line of lofty hills. So lake on one side, unbroken line of lofty hills on the other, and the road is going between them. Now, Flaminius, I mean, he may be headstrong, but he's not an idiot. He realizes it would be very foolish to take a road like that as the shadows are lengthening. And so he decides to pitch camp on the edge of the lake. And then in the morning, he will see where the Carthaginians are before deciding whether to kind of follow the line of this very narrow road between the lake and the hills. Dawn breaks and there's a very heavy mist hanging over the lake and indeed the road and the foothills of the mountains. And Flaminius can't actually see what lies ahead in the road, so he sends his scouts clattering down the road. And then they come back and say, yeah, brilliant news. We can see the Carthaginians ahead of us. They've taken the road and we can see their rearguard and they're just kind of going over the hills beyond Lake Trasimene. So we really need to get a move on because otherwise we're going to lose them.
- [39:31]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [39:31]
Guest Historian
And so Flaminius goes right quick, all action stations. Probably they do have time for breakfast this time, but, you know, the trumpets are blaring, they're all kind of getting ready, and they start snaking along this road between the lake, the hills kind of rising up on their, on their left, going along, going along. And sure enough, the mist breaks briefly and Flaminius is able to see that Hannibal's rearguard is still in the process of climbing up the hills from the valley. And so he orders his men forwards. And they engage. And the Roman vanguard crashes into what Flaminius is assuming is Hannibal's rear guard. And the battle begins. But just as it begins, to the horror of Flaminius, to the horror of the Roman column that is now stretched all along the road between the mountains and the lake. They hear the sudden blaring of war trumpets from the mist swathed heights above them. And then they hear the massed battle cries of some 30,000 men, Africans, Spaniards, and of course, particularly Gauls. And the Gauls, these are people who have real beef with Flaminius. And to quote Polybius on how the Romans react to this unexpected development, the sudden appearance of the enemy took Flaminius completely by surprise. The mist blotted out all visibility. And with the attack being launched from higher ground and from so many points at once, the centurions and military tribunes were not only unable to issue any of the necessary orders, but even to grasp what was happening. They found themselves under attack simultaneously from the front, the flanks and the rear. So the whole column is being attacked.
- [41:12]
Dominic Sandbrook
So the whole thing was a trick. Right. Hannibal had tricked them.
- [41:15]
Guest Historian
Yeah, it's an ambush. And Hannibal yet again, has pulled off his favourite stunt with which is to kind of envelop and surround an enemy and then just press in and crush it to death. And the Romans, you know, they are doomed. There is no way they can get out of a trap like this. So they fight hard. I mean, they fight for three hours. Pretty impressive. But Hannibal's men, who essentially, you know, they had doubled back in the night to take up positions along the line of the hills, and Hannibal had left some of his men to pretend to be the rear guard to tempt the Romans in so very cunning. Right, but there's no way that the Romans can get out of this. Some of them do try wading out into the lake, but again, hopeless. You know, they either drown or they get hunted down by horsemen who come splashing after them. Flaminius himself is cornered by a band of the Gauls whom he had conquered, and they decapitate him and wave the head in triumph. I mean, quite battle the little Bighorn, right?
- [42:11]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [42:12]
Guest Historian
And the vanguard. So the guys who had been, you know, sent ahead, they do manage to break free of the trap, but it's no good. They're subsequently cornered and taken prisoner. And Flaminius's entire army, 25,000 men, wiped out.
- [42:27]
Dominic Sandbrook
What a twist. What a shock for the Romans.
- [42:29]
Guest Historian
Complete shock, because the news is brought to Rome and a magistrate climbs up onto the roster in the forum to announce to the people the result. So it's, you know, like announcing the football results or something. We have been defeated in a great battle. We have lost 13 nil. And there is worse to come because three days later, news arrives in Rome that a force of 4,000 cavalry who'd been sent ahead by, you know, the second consul, who was imagining that he'd be joining up with Flaminius, and he'd been sent it ahead, they've been ambushed, wiped out as well. So terrible news.
- [43:04]
Dominic Sandbrook
So in a massive emergency for the Romans, they presumably now have to take desperate measures.
- [43:09]
Guest Historian
They do. And fortunately for them, there are provisions within the constitution of the Republic for such a moment. And essentially what they decide to do is to suspend the rule of the city by the consul, so by the two elected magistrates and to appoint a single man to take their place. And this is, you know, this is a very momentous decision because everything about the Roman Republic screams out against any idea of obeying a single leader. It's a kind of legacy of their expulsion of the monarchy. But it isn't, you know, as I say, it's not unconstitutional. Provisions do exist for them to appoint this magistrate who is called in Latin dictator, which in English is essentially he who makes the decisions. And by tradition, the dictator serves with the legions on foot. Unlike normal, you know, a consul would, would be on a horse so he could see everything. The dictator is with the mass of, of the infantry. So he needs a second in command who serves as what is called the, the master of horse.
- [44:04]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right.
- [44:05]
Guest Historian
And both the dictator and the master of horse, they only serve for six months. And the hope is that within the six month period the crisis can be averted and then everything can go back to normal. And so the person who is appointed dictator is a guy we've already met before, Quintus Fabius Maximus Bericosis Warty, who was the guy who had very possibly gone to Carthage and held up his toga and said, I have peace and war in the folds of this toga and let's slip war.
- [44:33]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah. And he was the person who had been a little bit reluctant about rushing into war with the Carthaginians. Go too far to call him a dove, but he'd been more cautious than some of his colleagues.
- [44:42]
Guest Historian
Yeah. So he's celebrated for kind of qualities of prudence and moderation. But you're right, he's certainly not a dove. He's actually a very formidable general. He again is a very seasoned ghoul fighter. He'd brought a lot of the tribes in the foothills of the Alps under Rome's rule. He'd celebrated a triumph for it. So he's seen as ideally suited. He's not going to rush into an ambush. He's a proficient general, but more than that, he is emblematic of everything that the Romans admire in a statesman. So he comes from a very distinguished family. Unlike poor Flaminius, his own grandfather had served as a dictator in a previous crisis and come out of it very well. He himself is 58 years old. And to the Romans, people in their late 50s. I'm delighted to say, as seen as, as excellent people to entrust the future of the country to. So basically he's a, he's a man who, who can, you know, be trusted to steady the ship.
- [45:38]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah.
- [45:39]
Guest Historian
So this is agreed. Fabius is, is inaugurated as dictator in a weird midnight ceremony that's so secret that, that no one really knows what's going on apart from those who actually officiate. And from that moment on, Fabius is in command of Rome. And he spends his first day making sure that no ritual or ceremony or sacrifice to the gods has been neglected, because the assumption is that the gods are angry, so they need to get the gods on side. Next, he orders the walls of Rome to be repaired and the bridges over the Tiber to be pulled down. So to make the city itself secure, he then sets about recruiting two new legions. So Flaminius, two legions have been wiped out. They need to be replaced. And he joins them with the two legions of the other consul. So now there's a field army of four legions, maybe 40,000 men, so about the number that Hannibal has. But he is not intending to engage Hannibal in battle because he realizes that his men are, they're not sufficiently trained, they're not sufficiently battle hardened. They need to buy time to give these legions time to kind of become sufficiently hardened to fight with the Carthaginians. So instead, his policy is always to shadow Hannibal's men. And I'll quote Plutarch. Plutarch, the great Greek biographer who pairs famous Greeks with famous Romans. And Fabius is one of the famous Romans he writes the biography of. And in that biography, he describes how Fabius shadows Hannibal. If the Carthaginians kept their position, then he did as well. But the moment they moved, he would descend from the heights and draw up his men just far enough away to avoid being drawn into a battle that he had no wish to fight, yet near enough to inspire in Hannibal a fear that he was going to fight at last. And these are obviously very unglamorous tactics, but they're, they're, they're effective. So they can start cutting down enemy foraging parties, picking them off. They can menace Italian cities that might be kind of wavering, might be thinking, oh, yeah, we should sign up to, to Hannibal. And of course, all the time he's able to drill and train his raw recruits and to give them experience of being on campaign. So definitely, you know, there are a number of successes being chalked up.
- [47:48]
Dominic Sandbrook
And he's playing a long game, right? He's basically relying on Rome's Institutional kind of economic and manpower advantages that in the very long run, as long as he waits and waits and doesn't get tempted into a decisive battle, he will win and Hannibal will lose. That's his thinking.
- [48:03]
Guest Historian
So it's a difficult one because, as you say, on the one hand, he's playing the long game, but on the other hand, he can't afford to let Rome's reputation be trashed. And this becomes a real issue when Hannibal invades Campania, which is the kind of the rich, wealthy lands that surround Naples, Vesuvius, Pompeii, Capua, those kind of places. And Hannibal just starts stripping it bare and torching the villas and the estates of various Roman luminaries. But Fabius is still not tempted. He insists, still, we're going to shadow Hannibal. We're not going to engage in battle. And people in his army, people back in Rome, start to mutter, and they start to give him hostile nicknames. So one of these nicknames is Cunctator Delaya, and another one is Pedagogus, who is the slave who carries the. The books of a Roman schoolboy when he's going to school. And Fabis, of course, is aware of this, and all the more so because his leading critic is actually his own deputy, the man he's appointed as master of horse. And this is a former consulate called Marcus Minucius Rufus. And matters come to a head when Hannibal needs to leave the Campanian plane, and there's an obvious route for him to take, which Fabius has blocked. So there's a pass, and Fabius has put a garrison to block the pass, and he stationed his own men on the heights looking down at it. Hannibal is not the kind of guy who's going to be outsmarted by that kind of thing. So he waits until nightfall, and then he orders all his men. And this is a favorite trick. He's already done it to light torches and to make it look like they are, you know, that they've made camp. And then he gets burning torches and he ties them to the horns of a great herd of cattle. And then he whips the cattle up the side of a hill away from the pass. So the sentries on the pass, looking out into the dark, they see these torches starting to move up from the Carthaginian camp up the side of the mountain. And it looks as though this is the route that the Carthaginians are taking, that they're trying to make a breakout in the dead of night. So the garrison on the pass go rushing off to where these torches are blazing only to find that it's a great herd of cattle. And meanwhile Hannibal and his men have gone up over the pass and have made their escape.
- [50:21]
Dominic Sandbrook
I mean if he's played that trick more than once, you have to say the Romans are total mugs to fall for its second time.
- [50:26]
Guest Historian
It doesn't look good. And Fabius of course is made to look an absolute idiot. And so whisperings against him start to turn to open criticism and, and back in Rome there's these criticisms are sufficient that Fabius's enemies are able to force a vote which obliges him to share his powers and his legions equally with Minucius. So essentially dictator and master of horse are now the equivalent of consuls. Both are equally commanding two legions. And Hannibal of course is delighted by this because what he wants is a kind of hot headed Roman commander. And this is exactly what he has with Minucius. And it's not long after Minucius has taken over his two legions that he lures Manucius into a trap. It looks like these two legions are going to be wiped out. Fabius comes storming down to the rescue. Minucius is, is, is rescued. And that evening, very shame face. Manusius leads his men to Fabius's headquarters and, and he salutes the commander that he had so traduced as father.
- [51:28]
Dominic Sandbrook
Oh my word. Very embarrassing for Minucius. Yeah.
- [51:31]
Guest Historian
And very noble moment. Let me be the first. He declares to abrogate and annul the decree of the people that awarded me the joint command. And then the dictator takes him by the arms and embraces him and confirms him in his post as second of command as master of horse. So very, very noble. And the six months of Fabius's appointment is dictator pass and there are no more engagements. And people even back in Rome accept that. For the now his strategy has probably been a good one. But when he lays down his dictatorship, I don't think there's any feeling in Rome, and probably even Fabius doesn't think it, that it would be sensible to carry on this policy, to perpetuate it. Essentially Fabius's dictatorship was all about buying time, about recruiting, training more legions and then hopefully engage Hannibal in a great battle and wipe him out. Because that's what Romans do, they engage their enemies in battles and they annihilate the them. And Dominic, as you keep reminding us, the key to Rome's greatness is its manpower. And I think the thinking in Rome is well this is the superpower we have to harness we have to recruit and arm and train an army that is so vast, so formidable, that there can be no prospect of Hannibal defeating it.
- [53:06]
Dominic Sandbrook
So on the 1st of January, 216, Tom, two new consuls take up office and ahead lies the great showdown with Hannibal. Because everybody expects, don't they, that in the new year there will be a third pitch battle against the Carthaginians. And this time surely the Romans will be victorious. And whether they are victorious we will find out in the next episode. Now, in a startling innovation, we've started a club called the Rest Is History Club. And if you join that club, you can hear that episode, the Battle of Cannae, one of the most dramatic battles not just in ancient history, but in all history. You can hear that episode right now. If you remember, the Rest Is History Club.
- [53:49]
Guest Historian
That's amazing value, Dominic.
- [53:51]
Dominic Sandbrook
Oh, it's. The value is off the scale. It is such good value because you get ad free listening. You get a load of benefits that, I mean, so glittering.
- [53:59]
Guest Historian
God, I might sign up for it.
- [54:00]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, I mean, I've signed up multiple times actually, because I love it so much. Anyway, you can join this club@therealistory.com and whether you join it or not, we will be back next time with the most dramatic and thrilling and unexpected battle in all history. The battle of Canai. Bye bye, bye bye. Hi everybody.
- [54:33]
Tom Holland
You're still here right at the end of the episode. I'm very impressed by your commitment. But listen, I have a question for you. I want to ask you something in confidence. Do you sometimes listen to the adverts on these episodes and do you sometimes think, do you know what I wish that the listeners to this podcast, I wish they were listening to an advert about my brand rather than the other stuff that Tom and Dominic are promoting on here. If you have thought that there is of course only one way to find out what that would be like, you can disrupt the the procession of adverts. You could be the next HSBC premier or the many other tremendous companies that have advertised on the Rest Is History. And you could put your brand in front of millions of like minded listeners by advertising on the Rest is History and indeed the other shows on the Goal Hanger Network.
- [55:17]
Dominic Sandbrook
Now you may be thinking, I don't.
- [55:19]
Tom Holland
Know what the Goal Hanger Network is. Gohanger are the company behind this very show. And if you are in the market to increase the value of your brand, Gohanger would love to hear from you. You can register your interest or indeed your company's by going to goalhanger.com right now and that is goal G O A l hanger h a n g e r dot com.