576. The Irish War of Independence: Rise of the IRA (Part 1)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rest Is History - Episode 576: The Irish War of Independence: Rise of the IRA (Part 1)

Release Date: June 22, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 576 of The Rest Is History, titled "The Irish War of Independence: Rise of the IRA (Part 1)," hosts Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook delve deep into the tumultuous period leading up to Ireland's struggle for independence. Joined by esteemed guest Professor Paul Rouse, the discussion unpacks the complex interplay of political, social, and military factors that set the stage for the rise of the Irish Republican Army (IRA).

Setting the Stage: Historical Context

[03:52] Dominic Sandbrook opens the episode by highlighting the significance of Thomas Ashe, an Irish revolutionary whose poignant poem encapsulates the spirit of the era. Ashe's journey from a teacher and language activist to a key figure in the Easter Rising underscores the deep-rooted passions fueling the independence movement.

[04:52] Tom Holland and [06:31] Dominic Sandbrook provide a vivid backdrop of the Royal Irish Academy in Dublin, emphasizing Ireland's rich literary heritage and the enduring influence of British roots in Irish history. This setting serves as a metaphor for the intertwined destinies of Ireland and Britain.

The Complex Web of Irish-British Relations

[07:25] Paul Rouse delves into the long-standing tensions between Ireland and Britain, tracing back to the 12th century with Strongbow's arrival and the subsequent establishment of English lordships. He elucidates how the introduction of religion, particularly post-Reformation, exacerbated societal divisions, leading to cycles of violence and repression, such as the Cromwellian conquest that decimated a fifth of Ireland's population.

Notable Quote:

"Religion had wrapped itself like bindweed around the nature of Irish society, shaping every aspect of life in Ireland." — Paul Rouse [09:45]

From Home Rule to Radicalization

The conversation shifts to the late 19th and early 20th centuries, focusing on the Act of Union in 1800 and the subsequent struggle for Home Rule. [10:09] Paul Rouse explains how the promise of a Home Rule Parliament was met with vehement opposition from Unionists, especially in Ulster, where Protestant communities feared domination by a Catholic-led government.

[12:15] Paul Rouse discusses the Gaelic Revival and its role in rekindling Irish nationalism. He emphasizes that while the movement had elements of invention, it was fundamentally a reawakening of Irish cultural identity, which was crucial in mobilizing support for independence.

Notable Quote:

"The famine left a tremendous legacy of trauma and fueled the flames of Irish nationalism." — Paul Rouse [11:27]

The Easter Rising and Its Aftermath

[20:42] Paul Rouse provides an in-depth analysis of the Easter Rising of 1916, detailing its swift suppression by British forces and the subsequent execution of its leaders. He underscores how these executions, rather than quelling the movement, galvanized public opinion and transformed perceived rebels into martyrs.

Notable Quote:

"The executions turned the Easter Rising into a landmark moment, transforming public sentiment and fueling the independence movement." — Paul Rouse [21:07]

Sinn Féin Emerges as a Political Powerhouse

Post-Rising, the episode examines the rise of Sinn Féin as a dominant political force. [40:27] Paul Rouse traces the party's origins, highlighting Arthur Griffith's initial monarchist stance and its evolution into a staunch republican movement under Eamon de Valera's leadership.

[46:20] Paul Rouse details the strategic positioning of Sinn Féin in the 1918 elections, where their manifesto called for an independent Irish Republic and withdrawal from the House of Commons. This strategic political maneuvering, combined with effective propaganda and grassroots mobilization, led to their sweeping victory.

Notable Quote:

"Sinn Féin presented a straightforward proposition: We are patriots fighting the regime or complicit in its tyranny." — Paul Rouse [62:28]

Key Figures: Eamon de Valera and Michael Collins

The episode delves into the contrasting personalities of Eamon de Valera and Michael Collins, two pivotal figures in the Irish independence movement. [26:53] Paul Rouse portrays de Valera as a complex, austere leader whose public image belied his earlier revolutionary activities. In contrast, [47:21] Paul Rouse describes Collins as a charismatic organizer with a keen strategic mind, essential in building Sinn Féin's political and military infrastructure.

Notable Quote:

"Collins was a military organizer with a brilliant brain for detail, flourishing in London and later becoming the mastermind behind Sinn Féin's electoral success." — Paul Rouse [48:12]

The 1918 Election: A Political Revolution

The culmination of these efforts is vividly captured in the 1918 elections. [67:40] Paul Rouse outlines Sinn Féin's triumphant sweep, winning 73 seats compared to the Unionists' 26 and the Irish Parliamentary Party's mere six seats. This seismic shift effectively dismantled the old political order and set the stage for the Irish War of Independence.

Notable Quote:

"Sinn Féin's manifesto was brilliant—vague yet clear, setting the foundation for their quest for independence by any means necessary." — Paul Rouse [67:40]

Conclusion and Looking Ahead

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the dramatic changes in Irish politics and the impending conflict. The British government's introduction of conscription in 1918 further inflamed tensions, pushing Ireland towards a full-fledged war for independence.

[70:16] Paul Rouse remarks on the irrevocable shift in political dynamics, emphasizing that the path to a Home Rule Parliament is now intertwined with the pressing need to address Ulster's unresolved issues.

The episode concludes with a teaser for the next installment, promising to explore Sinn Féin's role further and the unfolding events of the Irish War of Independence.

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Notable Themes and Insights

1. Historical Continuity and Change: The hosts and Paul Rouse skillfully weave Ireland's long history of resistance against British rule with the immediate factors leading to the 1916 Rising and subsequent independence movement.

2. Role of Cultural Revival: The Gaelic Revival played a pivotal role in rekindling national pride and cultural identity, providing a fertile ground for political mobilization.

3. Impact of Repression and Martyrdom: The British suppression of the Easter Rising, particularly the executions, paradoxically strengthened the independence movement by creating martyrs and shifting public opinion.

4. Political Strategy of Sinn Féin: Sinn Féin's strategic entry into parliamentary politics, coupled with their populist and nationalist rhetoric, enabled them to devastate the older Irish Parliamentary Party and dominate the 1918 elections.

5. Key Leadership Dynamics: The contrasting leadership styles and visions of Eamon de Valera and Michael Collins highlight the multifaceted nature of the independence movement, balancing political maneuvering with military organization.

6. Conscription Crisis as a Catalyst: The British government's ill-fated attempt to introduce conscription in Ireland served as a catalyst that accelerated radicalization and unified various nationalist factions against perceived oppression.

Conclusion

Episode 576 offers a comprehensive exploration of the intricate factors that fueled Ireland's quest for independence, from cultural revival and political strategies to key leadership figures and pivotal events like the Easter Rising and the 1918 elections. Through engaging storytelling and expert analysis, Tom Holland, Dominic Sandbrook, and Professor Paul Rouse provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of this critical chapter in Irish history.

For those eager to continue the journey, Episode 577 promises an in-depth look at Sinn Féin's strategies and the ensuing Irish War of Independence, shedding light on how a nation fought to redefine its destiny against formidable odds.

Transcript

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Thank you for listening to the Rest is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series and membership of our much loved chat community. Go to therestishistory.com and join the club that is thereestishistory.com so Tom, we've got some absolutely thrilling news for our listeners down under, don't we?

[Tom Holland]

We do, Dominic, because of course this autumn sees England going to Australia to lose the Ashes. But they're not the only group of Englishmen who will be heading to Australia because we are going there in November and December this year.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So we will be playing five tests, we'll be doing five shows in front of our beloved Australian audience. So in late November we will be doing two shows in Sydney including one at the Opera House and we'll be doing a show in Melbourne and then the beginning of December we will be doing shows in Adelaide and in Brisbane.

[Tom Holland]

We've got some fantastic shows lined up for you, very possibly featuring one of Australia's greatest exports, but we will draw a veil over that for now. Tickets will be on sale exclusively to our beloved members of the Rest is History Club from Next Monday, that's the 30th of June at 11am Australian Eastern Standard Time.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So join the Rest is history [e-mail] now if you want to snap your.

[Tom Holland]

Tickets up early and tickets will then be available to purchase for everyone else at the rest is history.com from next Thursday, that's the 3rd of July again at 11am Australian Eastern Standard Time.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So for your chance to see us on stage live in an Australian city near you, just head to therestishory.com to get your tickets.

[Tom Holland]

This episode is brought to you by US Bank. They don't just cheer you on, they help every move account with the US Bank's smartly Checking and Savings account to help you track your spending and grow your savings. Your finances can go further because when you have the right partner on your side, there's no limit to what you can achieve. That's the power of us. Visit usbank.com today to learn more. Member FDIC Copyright 2025 US bank this.

[Paul Rouse]

Message is brought to you by Apple Card. Each Apple product, like the iPhone 16 is thoughtfully designed by skilled designers. The Titanium Apple Card is no different. It's laser etched, has no numbers and it earns you daily cash on everything you buy, including 3% back on everything at Apple. Apply for Apple Card on your iPhone in minutes subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Ranch terms and more at applecard.com Let me carry your cross for Ireland, Lord, the hour of our trial draws near and the pangs and the pains of the sacrifice May be borne by comrades dear Let me carry your cross for Ireland, Lord Let me suffer the pain and shame. I bow my head to their rage and hate and I take on myself the blame. Let them do with my body whate' er they will. My spirit, I offer to you that the faithful few who heard her call may be spared to Roisin Dhu. Let me carry your cross for Ireland, Lord For Ireland weak with tears for the aged man of the clouded brow and the child of tender years for the empty homes of her golden plains for the hopes of her future too Let me carry your cross for Ireland, Lord for the cause of Roisin Dhu.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So that was the Irish revolutionary Thomas Ashe, and he wrote that poem when he was in Lewes Prison in Sussex in 1917. And Roisin Duv, by the way, is Ireland. So Ashe was a farmer's son from County Kerry. He was a teacher, he was a school principal. He became an Irish language activist before the First World War. Great activist in Irish sport as well. Set up a local branch of the Gaelic Athletic association and he joins the Irish Volunteers, a paramilitary group, in 1913 and then was a key figure in the Easter Rising three years later, fighting a five hour battle against the Royal Irish Constabulary, he was arrested, he was court martialed, he was sentenced to death, but his sentence was commuted and then he was released after he'd written that poem. And then in 1917, amid growing tension in Ireland, he was arrested again and he went on hunger strike. And Tom, we'll find out how that story played out a little bit later, won't we?

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, we will. And this is the first of a three part series about the Irish independence struggle between 1916, so the year of the Easter Rising and 1921, which sees a truce established after a period of war between the British state and and Irish revolutionaries. There is then a treaty drawn up between Britain and what will become the Free State that grants Ireland limited independence and effectively creates Northern Ireland. And then we'll be looking at the bitter civil war that tore Ireland apart in 1922 and 1923. So there'll be two episodes on that and that story is bookended by two assassinations. The first of those, the British and indeed Irish Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson and the Irish National Commander in Chief Michael Collins. But before we get to this extraordinary story, gripping story, we should say where we are because we did a previous episode, didn't we, on the Easter Rising. And we were in the GPO for that perfect setting. And here we are in the August environ of the Royal Irish Academy in the heart of Dublin. It contains absolute treasures of old Irish literature going all the way back to the. The sixth century and of course, the. The Gaelic Revival. The fascination of Irish people in the 19th and early 20th century with their early history is a crucial part of the story that we'll be telling. But it was also established, the clue is in the title Royal Irish Academy by George iii. And so there is a reminder there of how deep the British roots in Irish history are as well.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Absolutely. And we're here thanks to our guest today. So a great friend of the rest is history. Well known as the former caretaker manager of County Offaly, professor of History at University College, Dublin, Irish national treasure, Paul Roush.

[Paul Rouse]

Oh, dear, Paul, I know you hate.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Being called a national treasure.

[Tom Holland]

And, Paul, it was you, wasn't it, who read that poem? It wasn't Dominic or Mead. It was doing an impression of Thomas Ashe.

[Paul Rouse]

No, that was me.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So, Paul, you joined us a couple of years ago and you took us through a mighty sweep. You covered all Irish history up to 1916. We reached at the end of that, amid the rubble of the Easter Rising. And before we get into what happens next, maybe we should remind newer listeners of the sort of the broader context. Because a really important thing for a lot of the Irish revolutionaries is this idea that they have suffered 800 years of British oppression. And is that fair or is the truth a bit more complicated?

[Paul Rouse]

It's a bit more complicated, but you may, funnily enough, that war cry of 800 years of oppression was particularly bandied about with the start of the modern troubles in Northern Ireland, 1969, because there's a really nice symmetry in numbers terms back to 1169 with the arrival of Strongbow, followed two years later by King John and the establishment of an English lordship in Ireland. So there is a certain logic to that cry. But we know, of course, that modern notions of the nation state do not easily apply back across the centuries. But what matters for our purposes is that the lordship existed but was restricted until the 16th century. So you had an area around Dublin, the inside the Pale, which was part of the lordship around the country. Then you had Anglo, Irish or English, depending on what title people wish to put on them, massive landowners. And then you had Gaelic chieftains, all interspersed in a kind of a speckled world of Ireland. Before the 1600s, everything then changed under King Henry VIII, who set about conquest of Ireland through war. True diplomacy, true favor, patronage, basically. And of course, that conquest was not accepted by the king's enemies here, and the Irish enemies fought back. But over the period of the following hundred years, you have the introduction of a new factor that is religion. And religion is tied because of the Reformation, a kind of a changed religious landscape. And it led to the plantation of large suedes of Ireland in Ulster and Munster, and initially in Lee, awfully of loyal Protestants and the land being taken from people who had previously farmed it. And what this did, of course, was tie religion to land and power and place within. Within society. So what you get is an extraordinary, complex society where there is tolerance and even goodwill at times, but there's also fear and loathing. And there are Massacres in the 1640s where Catholics massacred probably 4,000 Protestants. And then you have Cromwell who arrives, and by the time he leaves or his armies leave, there is one fifth of the population dead. So it's time and again, religion had wrapped itself like bind weed around the nature of Irish society, and it shaped every aspect of life in Ireland. But by the 1700s, Protestant and loyal versus Catholic and rebellious is the slightly cartoonish version of history. But it's for our purposes. By the time we get to 1800 or the late 1790s, that's where we are.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right. And then in 1800, it changes. There's the act of Union, and Ireland becomes part of a united kingdom. With Great Britain.

[Paul Rouse]

Yes, in the wake of a rebellion of 1798, which had been driven by ideas of the republics of America and of France, and imported this idea of republicanism into Ireland to fit around now, again, the divides of what? Of religion, more complex in the 1790s. But ultimately that rebellion leads to the passage of an act of Union in 1800.

[Tom Holland]

And so that's why Catholic identity comes to be associated with the idea of republicanism. It's dating to the period of the French Revolution.

[Paul Rouse]

It comes from that period onwards. And we will see this as we go through it. It's not a kind of a doctrinaire ideological commitment to revolution. It's not a crown, and it's not the British crown. It's a driving force for the majority of people. It's the sense of it being different. And even in this unitary state, though supposed unitary state, it was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. So Ireland was not part of Britain. And that's a really important point to remember as we move through this. And there are probably key defining things that we need to talk about in the 19th century. The first is the fact that there was famine in the 1840s and that famine left. If we go with round numbers, a million people dead and a million people emigrated. I know you have a lot of listeners across America. Many of them will be descended from people who left during the famine and in its aftermath.

[Tom Holland]

But Paul, also Irish people are emigrating to Britain. And so that is also a crucial part of the story we'll be telling, that there are lots of Irish people growing up in Britain whose identity is conflicted as well.

[Paul Rouse]

Yeah. And the divides that manifest themselves in Ireland can be seen in places like Liverpool in particular. And Dan Jackson, when he was on with you previously, did this brilliantly in his. His book is wonderful on. On the nature of those of those divides. And you go along the Tottenham Court Road in London, it's remade.

[Tom Holland]

And we will be meeting significant players in the story who have spent time in London.

[Paul Rouse]

Oh, they're really important to the story.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So the famine leaves this sort of legacy, this tremendous trauma. And in the late 19th century you have the Gaelic revival and a kind of. Is it a revival or an invention of Irish nationalism, would you say?

[Paul Rouse]

So the famine, first of all, it's important because of the impact it had on Irish nationalism. But it's also important for the emigre communities that are created in America. And we will see how they help to fund and people the revolution which ultimately we will end up talking about in terms of its invention and its creation. There are parts of it which are entirely invented.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Paul Rouse]

And there are stories made up. But what there is is a reawakening.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

You.

[Paul Rouse]

You saw earlier here, these. You mentioned the manuscripts that are there and the annals of the four Masters that are here in the Royal Irish Academy. What you had is in the 19th century was a rediscovery of these, a translation of them into modern language and a general popularization. Irish myths and sagas. You have a re. Awakening of interest in the Irish language. You have a creation of an alternative sporting world of daily games.

[Tom Holland]

But I mean, this place is fascinating, isn't it? Because it's the Royal. You know, you have Royal in the title, but it is generating all this passion and enthusiasm for. For ancient Ireland. And a lot of the key figures in this are actually Protestant. So it's at this point, it's not a kind of binary.

[Paul Rouse]

No, it's not a binary, but. But it's. We again, when it comes to empire and it comes to imperial war, we like to imagine that this is a fairly straightforward narrative with clear sides. But of course the reality of life is way more complex than that.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So talking about complexities, let's come to the crucial years of the 1900s and 1910s, which we did in the last series. I know this is a big ass ball, but are you able in like three minutes to explain why the home rule crisis. So this is a huge argument in Britain and Ireland about whether Ireland will be granted a home rule, basically its own parliament under the Liberal government of Herbert Henry Asquith. And why does that have such a toxic effect on politics in Ireland? And why does it lead to this new kind of paramilitary politics?

[Paul Rouse]

It leads to an enormous crisis in Britain and in Ireland because you step back here a few years so you Lord Salisbury, the tory leader in 1872, saying that Ireland, like India, must be kept as part of the empire, if not by persuasion, then by force. So in the 1880s there was a land war first of all waged where the land of Ireland was held by between 5 and 7,000 families. And there was a massive struggle amongst ordinary Irish people to claim that land. And it led to both outrage and passive resistance mixed in different parts, in different places. And that led to a growing sense that of difference. So this is not just the kind of the idea of a different nationality. This is a lived experience which is creating divide and within that. Gladstone, leader of the Liberal Party, says that his mission is. Has said that his mission is to pacify Ireland. And the way he sees that this can be done is to grant a sort of a home rule Parliament, but not independence.

[Tom Holland]

I mean that's a crucial thing. No one at this point is talking about independence.

[Paul Rouse]

Well, there are people in Irish nationalism who wish for independence. They're the Irish Republican Brotherhood who are secretly arming, secretly drilling founded in 1858, stage a rebellion in 1867. The great swathe of the population can see no way even if they wish for independence. The British Empire is the most mighty empire in the world. Its power and its privilege and its prestige of both commerce and culture as well as military might is. It sits everywhere. And the idea that a group of Irish rebels are going to beat them seems ridiculous. So they settle, they settle for the idea of a home ruled parliament. And the idea is that a significant. No, I won't say significant. I will say a considerable amount of power will be devolved to a parliament in Dublin which will ultimately owe its allegiance though to the Imperial Parliament in London. And there is no suggestion that Queen Victoria will not also be Queen of Ireland.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And a huge issue in this is the people in the northeast of the, in particular in the northeast of the island, but actually also scattered elsewhere in the island, who don't want that often because they're Protestants. And, and they think, well, that would just mean I'd be living under the sort of the tyranny of a Catholic Home Rule parliament. And I don't want that. And this is particularly associated with Ulster, with the province of Ulster.

[Tom Holland]

The total population in Ireland, the proportion of that is about 30%.

[Paul Rouse]

You're looking at 30% allegiance. So that can include some middle class Catholics, et cetera, who owe their allegiance to or who are more than comfortable within empire. No sense that they are dismayed by the prospect. And that matters as well, I think, Dominic, in that it's not just that they fear Pap Rule because of spiritual or religious reasons. Belfast is a place apart. Belfast is the one part of Ireland that is truly industrialized. Belfast grew from 16,000 people in 1810, more or less, to 350,000 by the early 1900s, driven by the shipyards and the linen industries.

[Tom Holland]

It's the home of Titanic.

[Paul Rouse]

Exactly. And it's. All of that is, is really important to creating a different culture around Belfast. And that culture believes that it owes prosperity as well as religious freedom and other freedoms to the empire.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Paul Rouse]

And so in 1880, opposition from, from Unionists led or assisted by the Tory Party in England, where Chamberlain played the Orange card, famously, this idea that we, we give support to Unionists. And it basically collapsed the Home Rule bill in the 1880s. So it wasn't passed. It wasn't passed again in 1892, in the 1890s when there was another effort. And then it looked like it was dormant until an upheaval in British politics between 1909 and 1911 transformed the political landscape.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And we did a couple of episodes on this in the first series, so people can go back and listen to it if they want all the complexities. But effectively what you have is the liberal government want to give Home Rule, but the Unionists, particularly in Ulster, don't want it. They start to arm. So you start to have paramilitary politics, kind of the Ulster Volunteers, and then you also have the Irish Volunteers arming who are in favor of Home Rule. So you have a sort of, you know, there's a sense in which Irish politics is slipping towards armed confrontation and then that is interrupted in 1914 by the shootings in Sarajevo and the outbreak of the First World War. Now the Home Rule Bill at this Point has been passed. So Home Rule will be granted. That is the thought. But the whole thing is basically frozen, isn't it, by the outbreak of the first war. So it doesn't go away, it's just dormant, is that right?

[Paul Rouse]

Yes, it is. I think it's really important for us, Dominic, to stress the importation of arms through 1913 into 1914, the establishment of the Ulster Volunteer Force and the plans to establish provisional government for Ulster.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Paul Rouse]

If it was insisted upon that there should be home rule granted to Ireland. That's a really important story in the militarization of Ireland.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And there are people in the British army and indeed in the Tory Party who are effectively colluding.

[Paul Rouse]

Well, the great belief is that the leader of the Conservative Party knew that these arms were being imported and was saying that there is no level that I can imagine that Ulster Unionists will go to that I will not support them.

[Tom Holland]

And so that must destabilize Catholic faith in the neutrality of British institutions, of which the army would be the most obvious.

[Paul Rouse]

And what it does as well is it inspires the importation of guns by the Irish Volunteer Force. So now you have a second militarized army on the island and that third one exists where there is a citizen army of socialists who have guns in Dublin as well, so who are also bent on rebellion.

[Tom Holland]

Ultimately, I think we finished the last series by Asquith saying, thank God for the First World War. Basically, I paraphrase, it can't be as bad as he said.

[Paul Rouse]

It was a stroke of luck that war broke out in. Now that looks worse in hindsight because of, because of the war lasting as long as it did and the industrial slaughter that ensued. But the crisis was so deep that it seemed intractable because you had Irish nationalists who would not accept anything other than the entire island under a home ruled Parliament. An Irish Union is saying, we're, we're not going into a home ruled Parliament. We want nothing other than rule from Westminster. Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And then so it appears to be dormant. And then at Easter 1916, the conflict flares into life with the Easter Rising, which actually at the time is very quickly put down by British forces. I mean, a lot of Dublin is sort of reduced to rubble, but the British are able to stamp it out. And the British, I guess, get the impression it's very annoying that this has happened. It's a sort of, it's a betrayal at a time when we're fighting the Germans on the Western Front. However, hopefully it's not going to prove a massive deal. And what turns the Easter Rising into such a big deal.

[Paul Rouse]

I first of all think that everybody says it's the executions that turned everything. So basically after the Rising, the people who were involved, it was about a thousand, went out on Easter Monday by Easter Saturday. By the time it ended, There were probably 15, 1600 who had been on. On the street. So it was a really small minority of people who had struck during the war because it presented the opportunity, as they saw it, to rise and drag the people with.

[Tom Holland]

So England's difficulty is islands opportunity.

[Paul Rouse]

Exactly. In the old saw and that. That is not what happened, of course. And it was crushed within. Within a very short space of time. And people said at the time that the rebels were mocked and abused on the streets and, and that there was incredible resistance to what they'd done and just discussed. Actually, I think that's overplayed. Yes, there was some of that, but there were also other people who were, you know, admired them for what they were doing.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. So, I mean, it's commonly said, isn't it, the Easter Rising, that at the time they're a minority and actually people are horrified by it. And the British think, well, it's not going to be this, that big a deal. It's annoying, it's a bit of a betrayal at the time of fighting the Germans on the Western Front. But of course it does turn out to be a landmark moment. And so what changes? What makes it so iconic so was.

[Paul Rouse]

First of all a minority, and the scale of the minority is extraordinarily significant. It's about a thousand people went out on Easter Monday, maybe joined by a few hundred more as the week went along. But it's not a mass uprising. And I think when it, when it comes down to it, there are a series of factors which change perceptions of people as to why people had reacted adversely to it in the city initially during the Rising, Although I do believe that that's somewhat overplayed. And it hangs initially on the executions of the leaders, now the leaders themselves, it should be said, expected to die on the week they knew they were rising in time of war. This was their opportunity.

[Tom Holland]

And this is the whole key to it being Easter. It's a sacrifice.

[Paul Rouse]

And the word blood sacrifice is appended to this time time and again. But. So there were 187 people who rose court martial. The rest are put in pens around the place and are ultimately interned, some in Ballykinlar in the north, but many went to Frongok in Wales and others went to places like Lewis Prison and Reading Jail and all of those. We'll talk about those, I think, a little bit later on. But of the 187 who are court martialed, a number of them were sentenced to death. About 90 of them were given death sentences, as it turned out. 14 of them were executed in Kilmainham Jail, having been tried in secrecy, without representation in a series of court martials. But there was no doubt about guilt, to be fair, and they were. The executions began on the morning of the 3rd of May when Patrick Pierce, Thomas Clark and Thomas McDonough were shot by firing squad in the stonebreaker's yard of Kilmainham Jail. They continued until the 12th of May. So 14 executions in that jail were strung out over 10 days. The last one to die was Sean McDiarmida and James Connolly. And James Connolly is a story that was really potent because Connolly was extremely ill and extremely injured. He was so bad he basically had to be tied to a chair so that he could be shot.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right.

[Paul Rouse]

His wife and his daughter. His daughter tells this story in heartbreaking detail later in the 60s of going in to see her father the night before he was shot and. And. And her mother crying and him saying, oh, don't cry, you'll unman me. And it's. It's one of these stories begin to come out afterwards and they're potent ones in the story. So there were two more executions that matter. Thomas Kent down in Cork wasn't really involved in any. Cork was very quiet for a Rebel county in 1916. Very little happened in Cork. But the other big one is. Is Roger Casement.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Paul Rouse]

So Roger Casement is featured in recent episodes. Did in the Congo, where he exposed extraordinary abuses by the Belgians in that area. Also went to the Pio region in the Amazon. Exposed more. There was a knight of the Realm, had been born in Dublin, but was really associated with Ulster Unionism. Was a Protestant who increasingly converted to nationalism to the point where Roger Casement went to Germany after the outbreak of war and tried to raise an Irish regiment from captured prisoners of war held by the Germans. Tries to get the Germans to give guns. He doesn't manage to raise a regiment, but he gets the Germans to give them guns which come back on a submarine. But he's arrested when he arrived on the weekend of the Easter Rising. He's brought to the Tower of London. He's tried, convicted, there's an appeal, it doesn't wash. And there's a huge, huge fuss about this. So this. We're on into August now. The Rising took Place in April, it's into August. And he was hung a morning early in August in Pentonville Prison by a hairdresser from Rochdale called John Ellis, who, when he did the execution, there were people out in the road cheering and there were others praying and lamenting in Irish.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

An extraordinary scene. And we should talk about one person, actually, who wasn't executed because he'll play a massive part in this story. And this is a man called Eamon de Valera, who any Irish listener will undoubtedly be familiar. Familiar with, but some of our British and American listeners and whatnot, maybe not so much. So tell us a bit about the Valera.

[Paul Rouse]

Well, I start from the fact that it's probably my first memory in life was going to de Valera's funeral. He. He was left lying in State. In 1975, I was five years of age in. In Dublin Castle.

[Tom Holland]

So he's about 150.

[Paul Rouse]

Yeah, I'm aging quite gracefully. He, he, he was there. The man who was in that box, though, was. Was. We queued up for hours to get in. And typically of my character, I whinged and cried the whole way through. But when I'd seen it, I wanted to go back and have another look.

[Tom Holland]

But presumably a very long coffin, because he is.

[Paul Rouse]

He's known as the Longfellow. He's the Longfellow and is the man who he's always twinned with and in history and reduced by history to caricature both of them. Michael Collins is the big fella. So de Valeraeura is the long fella and Collins is the big fella.

[Tom Holland]

Rest is history.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So de Valera, I mean, he. He dominates Irish politics in the 20th century and he also dominates this story in some ways. So tell us a bit about his character. The perception of him is this very chilly, sort of austere. Austere clerical character. Is that fair?

[Paul Rouse]

And that's right. And this image of him, by the time he was president of Ireland from the late 50s to the early 70s, he was almost blind. He was very old, doddery figure. And that's the one that television captured. So it's the one that has stuck in the public mind. But the devil era, who was born in New York to an Irish woman and apparently a Spanish.

[Tom Holland]

Spanish father, so hence his name.

[Paul Rouse]

So. But it must be said, David McCullough's biography on this, on. On Eamon de La is really good. And it throws question marks over quite exactly what. What the parentage is something, by the way, which de Valera's opponents threw at him all all his life. He was brought home when he was very young tree to the old family home and brewery in. In County Limerick, though his mother remained in. In New York.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right.

[Paul Rouse]

And Devil Error was raised by wider family members. He was a really bright kid, Got a scholarship to the elite Blackrock College. Skilled at mathematics, discovered the Irish language and the caricature of this man who was presented in a very particular way, you can't see it from those periods. He was more than happy to go out drinking, he certainly went courting. And down in he went. He went working in Rockwell College as a maths teacher at one stage. And loved rugby. Absolutely loved rugby. And got a trial for the Munster rugby team. He was trialed as fullback and the guy who was picked ahead of him played for Ireland that year. So de Valera could easily have been an international rugby player.

[Tom Holland]

But very keen on maths. And he comes up with all kinds of complicated mathematical schemes in due course, doesn't he, to try and square circles and so on.

[Paul Rouse]

He had a very interesting mind and. Yes. But is also, again, kind of caricatured in that because he's portrayed as being someone who was austere, but he went out with a gun in 1916 and joined a rebellion.

[Tom Holland]

But he does kind of lean into the stereotype, doesn't he himself? So there's this famous phrase of him that every instinct of mine would indicate that I was meant to be a dyed in the wall Tory or even a bishop, rather than the leader of a revolution.

[Paul Rouse]

Yes, he's, again, we keep using the word complex, but he is a complex individual throughout all of this.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And here's the thing, he's not executed. He could have been executed, but he is not executed because he's an American citizen.

[Paul Rouse]

Yeah, again, that's what said that. It's because he was an American citizen. But it is also the case the British Prime Minister Asquith had been telling the military authorities in Ireland, stop killing these people, because already there are Catholic bishops calling for the executions to stop. There are newspapers calling for it.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So this takes us to the, you know, the crucial next step, which is that there's clearly a change in atmosphere in the, I don't know, six months, 12 months after the Easter Rising. There is a sense of a change in the. In the tone, in a gathering momentum towards nationalism and just talk us through some of that. So this is to do with, obviously, the reaction to the executions and to the rising, but there are also books being published. There's. It's a Sporting story. How does the Mood change in this.

[Paul Rouse]

Period, the first way the mood changes is by the people who are sent to camps, being brought home. So they're coming home, they're released early from Frank, the military intelligence, the police intelligence was useless. They lifted a whole load of people who had nothing to do with the Rising, so they let them out, sometimes after three, four weeks. But across that autumn and winter of 1916, as far as Christmas morning 1916, a ship carrying both soldiers from the Western Front and released Republican prisoners from English jails sails into Dublin port. The dawn is breaking and there's four in particular who pushed their way up from steerage to first class. There's Carlo Shannon and Terence McSweeney, later Lord Mayor of Cork, Sean T O' Kelly, later President of Ireland, and Ernest Blyde, who is later in the first cabinet and himself a Protestant. But up on the top as the ship pulls in, is Thomas McCurtain, later also Lord Mayor of Cork, and he's playing the fiddle. And on the quay to greet them as they come out of the murk are loads of people with tricolours, because they're cheering another group of people who are home. Around that, there's a film, Ireland the Nation, which kind of depicts the famine in 1798, which celebrates Irishness, that's been shown in cinemas around America. There are books like the Sinn Fein Rebellion Handbook, hugely popular, on the All Ireland hurling final of 1916, not played till 19. Tipperary hurlers, who feature hugely in this story later on, come up and they go to the GPO and they say prayers amidst the rubble. So that's becoming an iconic site. There are collections for the funds of prisoners which Michael Collins gets involved in, and we'll be talking about Collins later on. And then a year after the Rising, on the day that James Connolly. The anniversary of James Connolly's execution, a huge sign is put up onto the Liberty hall, that home of trade unionism in Ireland. The place which had the sign before the Rising, which said, we serve neither King nor Kaiser, now has a sign on it which says, James Connolly, murdered 12th of May 1916. It was only up for a very short period, possibly only an hour, but it was photographed as part of propaganda to be sold alongside the books and rosettes and flags that were now ubiquitous amongst people who had been swayed.

[Tom Holland]

And is there a sense that the nationalist movement is breaking new ground with propaganda, that it's outthinking the royalist British assumptions about propaganda?

[Paul Rouse]

Well, you must remember that at this point, British interest in Ireland was so minimal as to be Exceptionally difficult to quantify because the war was raging in Europe. Britain was in an existential fight. The United Kingdom was really in turmoil. The minds were focused elsewhere. It wasn't focused on Ireland. Ireland never truly mattered in British politics after 1914. I'm not saying it didn't matter at all, but it was not central to the story in the way it had been in 1914, despite the rebellion.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, you can see that in newspapers, Cabinet meetings and all these kinds of things. It's there, but it's never the biggest thing. Before we go to the break, let's talk about two groups in particular. So one is, you've already mentioned the fact that not everybody is a nationalist. So about 30% of the population of Ireland would regard themselves as Unionists, and these are predominantly, but not exclusively Protestants. So while all this is going on, what do. Are they just watching in kind of in horror and indifference? What do they think?

[Paul Rouse]

Well, it's even more complex than that because their leaders, including Edward Carson. Edward Carson is now in the British Cabinet. And so the connections between the formation of coalition government in England allowed for Ulster Unionism to reach right into the Cabinet table. And the shift in power, whereas previously the Liberals had depended on Irish Nationalist votes, that is gone now. It's now Unionists who sit in Cabinet and in power, they still stand rejecting Home Rule. Nothing has changed there. Indeed, the myth of Ulster continues to grow, built incredibly in another event in 1916, the Battle of the Somme, at which the 36th Ulster Division suffered horrendous losses on the first day. And if I went to see those trenches that they were fought in, I went to see the monument in Thiepville which was erected to the Ulster Unionists who were there. It's an incredibly well kept, preserved, iconic part of that story. And it fed in to the myth of Ulster and supported by Kipling and Elgar and all the voices of empire.

[Tom Holland]

And so, Paul, that's another Irish blood sacrifice offered up in 1916.

[Paul Rouse]

Yes, and again, it sits right at the heart of the mythology of unionism, just as 1960.

[Tom Holland]

It's so extraordinary, isn't it, that the two communities are both creating these mythic blood sacrifices in their imaginings.

[Paul Rouse]

And it's in the language that's been used in. In all of this. You see, James Dillon stood in, in the House of Commons and talked about the blood that was going to flow in Ireland. He was really strong, potent member of the Irish Parliamentary Party, a moderate, stood in the House of Commons and said to us, you're creating a Revolution here. Yeah, because you're killing these men. There is blood flowing out from under the cell doors. The British Ambassador in America writes home and says there are blood in the eyes of Irish Americans. So things have been fundamentally Transformed by the 1916 Rising Both north and south.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And so the second group just before we go to the break are the British. What are the British thinking is going to be the medium to long term outcome? What is their plan? So Asquith is Prime Minister, but he is toppled and replaced by David Lloyd George, who is basically in coalition with the Conservatives and increasingly reliant upon the Conservatives, who as we know, are great friends of the Ulster Unis. What does Lloyd George think is going to happen to Ireland? They're still planning Home Rule, aren't they?

[Paul Rouse]

So in the middle of 1916, in the summer of 1916, before he became Prime Minister, David Lloyd George was Minister of Munitions and he attempted to introduce Home Rule. He was charged with aspect of fixing the crisis. Lloyd George went at it with. He celebrated as a cunning mind, but you could equally say he was a man so crooked he couldn't lie straight in bed. And Lloyd George told different things to both sides in promising home Home Rule. He told Carson that Home Rule.

[Tom Holland]

He's the head of the Unionists.

[Paul Rouse]

The head of the Unionist. Sorry, he's the head of Unionists that. Well, listen, we' have a separate parliament for the six counties and you can permanently stay out of Home Rule. The rest of Ireland can get their 26 counties. But he, he told John Redmond, the leader of the Irish Moderates, that, well, no, listen, we're going to keep the north out, but only for a while. He kind of went between the two things, but he couldn't square the language to, to, to get a true.

[Tom Holland]

So that fell up Dera's mastery of maths.

[Paul Rouse]

But by the time you get to 1917, there is no plan, right? There is, there is no sense of what can be done here. There's the idea that we'll put in Home Rule and we might get a partition, a settlement, but how that's going to be delivered to Irish nationalists who might consider a temporary exclusion for Ulster, but not a permanent one. And Ulster Unions were saying, well, we don't want Home Rule at all, but if we must do something, it's permanent.

[Tom Holland]

So Paul, you mentioned John Redmond, who is the, the leader of the Moderate Nationalists, the, the party that has been campaigning for Home Rule, supportive of Home Rule, but lurking in the background all along there is another party, another organization that we haven't mentioned yet, but will be playing a huge part in the story. And that is a party called Sinn Fein in English, ourselves alone. And I think we should take a break now. And when we come back, we will look at the role played by Sinn Fein in this story. This is an ad from BetterHelp.

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[Dominic Sandbrook]

Hello.

[Tom Holland]

Welcome back to the Rest Is History and the clock is ticking on British rule in Ireland. And Paul, we mentioned Sinn Fein just before the break. So tell us about Sinn Fein.

[Paul Rouse]

So Sinn Fein is described in the commission of inquiry to the rebellion as being the driving force behind the rebellion of 1916. And it had nothing to do with it in the sense of nothing practical, but it had an impact on the ideas that were swirling around Irish society from the early 1900s onwards. And those ideas coalesced particularly around an individual called Arthur Griffith, who is one of the most important people in this whole story. So Griffith was a man who went to national school, but never went to secondary school really, and did his learning in beside us here in the National Library of Ireland. He, like so many others, so many other revolutionaries in so many other countries, had work as a printer. So he went into that world of books and of newspapers and became a journalist. He went to live in South Africa for, for a while and then when he came back, he founded new newspapers which he kind of shared this idea of Irish nationality, Irish nationalism, and this idea that little countries around the world. He wrote a lot about other countries.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And in particular Hungary, because he has this idea that basically the United Kingdom can become an Austro Hungarian dual monarchy where King George or whoever is the king in Ireland, but Ireland has its own separate parliament.

[Paul Rouse]

And this is just to make sure things are particularly complicated. It makes the fact that Sinn Fein is not a Republican Party until 1917 when it changes its particular policies until in the autumn of 1917. It did wish for independence, though, and huge power with the figurehead of the monarch.

[Tom Holland]

But the notion that Sinn Fein began as a monarchist party is one of my favorite Irish history facts.

[Paul Rouse]

It is a slight reduction, but I do I take the point though. And in in Ireland, Griffith's notion of nationality was that he was a geographic determinist, as Michael Laffin has said, so that irrespective of background or religion, if you were born on the Ireland, you're Irish. That's how he saw it.

[Tom Holland]

So and that's a tradition of Irish identity that again goes back to the Napoleonic period, the revolutionary period.

[Paul Rouse]

The thing with Griffith is that Griffith was actually a member of the Irish Republican Brotherhood, though he kind of drifted away from that, not because he was against the use of arms, but because he didn't think it was possible for the Irish Republicans to go in armed rebellion and win. And he was only interested in winning. He was a pragmatic man. He pushed ideas around industrialization and forestation and the protection of Irish goods against those things. So he wanted to build up a movement that was basically.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He's not a tariffs fan, is he?

[Paul Rouse]

He's. He was, funnily enough, at times, I'm very much of the moment here, he was involved in the gun running for the Irish Volunteers. So that shows you. Again, even though he didn't fight in the Rising, he was not against revolutionary nationalism. His newspaper was suppressed during World War I. So he did something that was, I think, a piece of genius. He set up a new newspaper called Scissors and Paste. And there were copies of Scissors and Paste in the National Library and out in ucd. But what they are. Is, what he did was he took cuttings from other newspapers that had got by the censor and put them into a newspaper called Scissors and Paste and made his journalism out of stories that had already been published together and didn't really work for too long. And that too was. Was, Was. Was suppressed. But the ideas that he had propagated over the first 16, 17 years of the 20th century were wrapped around ideas of Irish independence to the extent that the name Sinn Fein was applied to a rebellion.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Paul Rouse]

Of which they were not involved as a constituent organization.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So in a sense, the, The British and the. The authorities, they haven't exactly invented the idea of Sinn Fein, but they've changed Sinn Fein because they've turned it into something that. It wasn sort of incredibly potent underground revolutionary organization. You see British politicians and newspapers talking about the dangers of Sinn Fein and their Sinn Fein murder gang and whatnot all the time. So they've kind of created this chimera, I guess.

[Paul Rouse]

And you see this as the people who were in the internment camps, they came up with plans in those camps. It was, it was, It's. It was quite a remarkable thing to put people together who didn't know each other particularly well, because it's often described as.

[Tom Holland]

The prison camps are described as a university.

[Paul Rouse]

The university, exactly. The University of the revolution. And they come home and through 1917, as Sinn Fein begin to organize again, as people come home, they. They begin to do things that. That are not just about independence. So they do practical things. They don't just make speeches and spout. They. They do things like they say, okay, we're going to boycott people who support this government. We're going to boycott the Crown forces, we're going to boycott the police. Number one, number two, we're going to go involved in land agitation. So we're going to, to argue that the remaining land that is held by landlords, that hasn't been distributed amongst tenant farmers must now be given out. Number three, they do into food agitation. Food agitation is important because of, of course it's wartime and there's price issues and there's scarcity issues. And someone like Dermot Flynn, for example, commandeer Sinn Fein director of food, he, he comes and he gets 34 pigs that are about to be exported from Dublin port. He takes them away, they're slaughtered and they're dispersed amongst the population. So these are, that's an example, I think, of popular engagement. And you recognize this from revolutionary organizations around the world. This is not, these are things that revolutionary organizations do. It's a wider story made real here.

[Tom Holland]

But there is a strong sense that Sinn Fein are kind of leading the way in this, that Irish nationalists are kind of inventing a new kind of revolutionary agitation.

[Paul Rouse]

And this really is said about the guerrilla war which comes, which we'll talk about I think in the next episode and the one afterwards, but for the moment it's about Sinn Fein now beginning to compete in parliamentary politics. It puts up candidates and they are.

[Tom Holland]

Obviously opposed to being a part of the Westminster Parliament, but they are prepared to play the Westminster game to that degree that they are happy to stand candidates in by elections.

[Paul Rouse]

For instance, they will stand candidates in by elections, but they will not take their seats in the House of Commons. So it begins in February 1917 when Count Plunkett, the father of an executed 1916, wins by election in Roscommon.

[Tom Holland]

And it has to be said there's a surprising number of counts and countesses involved in this.

[Paul Rouse]

Papal count in this case, and then.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

The South Longford by election, that's in May. That's another Sinn Fein, great Sinn Fein triumph. And it's a key moment because it brings us to one of the other big characters of this story who's very involved in that campaign, who is Michael Collins. So he's not standing in that election, but he's behind the scenes. He's pulling a lot of the strings as well, doesn't he? And tell us a little bit about Collins because he's such a massive character.

[Paul Rouse]

So just as de Valera is reduced in history to this, as you say, the Longfellow, so Michael Collins is seen as this gun blazing rebel.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Paul Rouse]

Who just appears young and handsome, died at 33. Later will that story, you'll come across that story in in the Civil War. He was a man who was fated in, in societies. Really handsome individual.

[Tom Holland]

Well, he's called the big fella, isn't it? Because he, it's expressive of his charisma rather than his size. He's not particularly large.

[Paul Rouse]

It's personal, it's personality and charisma and, and that this sense of. Now he, he divided opinion because there were people who found him brusque and overbearing as well as people who swore absolute allegiance to him. But Collins is much more than a gunman. In fact, Collins was a military organizer and had a brilliant brain for, for detail. An organization which he kind of, kind of flourished in London because he emigrated to London as a teenager.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Just from Cork originally.

[Paul Rouse]

Yes, he's from Cork. He's from Cork and he went to London, worked in the post office and.

[Tom Holland]

Then he loves post offices, doesn't he?

[Paul Rouse]

Ends up in a different type of post office.

[Tom Holland]

And he, he does wrestling and hurling on Clapham Common, apparently.

[Paul Rouse]

Yeah, he was secretary to a GAA club, a hurling club over there. He played for London. He played in the competitions over there. But it was in London that he joined the Irish Republican Brotherhood. He got into this emigre world of people who were unreconciled to the crown. And he was slowly radicalized or rather quickly radicalized in fairness. And he came back from London to fight in the rising in 1916, just before he was interned initially. But he was a nobody in the, in the Rising. He'd been in the gpo but he wasn't a well known figure. But there's a leadership gap in the end of 1916 and 1917. De Valera and other ones of the significant leaders of the 1916 Rising who hadn't been killed are in jail. And Collins emerges as this figure who gets a job setting up Republican prisoners funds around the place. And he becomes a permanent organizer who helps build Sinn Fein through 1917 to run in the by elections. And it is his push of Joe McGuinness. Now Joe McGinnis is one of seven children who'd spent time in America who had set up a Gaelic League, Irish language language brands around Longford. He'd worked in the Draper shops in Camden street, not too far from us here. He'd fought in the Easter Rising in the forecourts where I think you're going to go later in in this series. That's where he was based under Ned Daley there. And he was sent to Lewis Prison. And it was from Lewis Prison that he was elected as the MP for South Longford in May 1917. And he won by apparently 37 votes. And it was Collins who pushed that he run in the first place, against the wishes of other people who thought it was ridiculous and that he could not win. It was Collins who drove the campaign, who brought men in cars down to Longford to campaign for him. And he stayed all the time in the Greville Arms Hotel, a Great Arms hotel in the middle of Granard. And it was there where he met Kitty Kiernan, who he ended up engaged. So you had to say it.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. Everyone was thinking, thank you. So you talked about a leadership gap and Collins is sort of emerging, he's rising up the ladder. But of course, the person who does become the president of Sinn Fein is the person who ends up being his rival, which is Eamon De Valera. How is it that de Valera, rather than Griffiths, becomes the president of Sinn Fein at the end of 1917?

[Paul Rouse]

So there's distrust of Griffith. Despite his years in the movement, he had left the IRB and he was still a monarchist in early 1917 in the sense he was willing to accept. So you have a man who didn't find in 1916 and still gave allegiance to monarchy. And then you have Eamon de Valera, the most powerful surviving leader of that rebellion, who comes back from jail in the summer of 1917. De Valera and Griffith Meath, and they have a conversation and it's agreed that Devilaire will be president and Griffith will be his vice president. Griffith served, served fatefully the cause after that point.

[Tom Holland]

And Paul said all this parliamentarian shenanigans. But what about the. The military aspect of this?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That.

[Tom Holland]

Or I should probably say the paramilitary aspect of this.

[Paul Rouse]

So in October 1917, when there was an ardesh or kind of an annual conference of Sinn Fein at which Eamon De Valera was elected as president, and it was agreed that the policy of Sinn Fein would be to establish, and I quote, an independent Irish Republic. And De Valere formulated a kind of a unanimously accepted compromise around the nature of what that republic would be when it was said, Sinn Fein aims at securing the international recognition of Ireland as an independent Irish republic. Having achieved that status, the Irish people may, by referendum, choose their own form of government. So that's what pulled everyone together, and that's the point at which the movement coalesced from that point onwards. And then there were still by elections being won, but at precisely the same weekend, there was a volunteer convention around the ardash of Sinn Fein. So that is to say, the Irish Volunteers the military wing is beginning to maneuver again. Many of those who've been interned after the Rising and who were now home, get involved in the founding of volunteer companies militarizing around the company. On top of that, the Irish Republican Brotherhood had not gone away. They had formed with Collins largely as their head, with Richard Mulcahy, who was also involved in the 1916 Rising and the man whose poem we read earlier, Thomas Ash, at its core. And they have gone around from earlier in 1917, advertising for our organizing. Sorry, for. For the volunteers. And it's in this point in the summer of 1917, that Thomas Ash was arrested for a seditious speech. Speech that he was put in Mountjoy jail ultimately and went on hunger strike to demand essentially prisoner of war status. And it was declined to him. And you said you would tell Tom what happened next. So what happened next?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So Thomas Ash was. He's held for just under a month and he goes on hunger strike. And it's this incredibly powerful moment. The idea of sort of sacrificing yourself for the cause of. And he's on hunger strike for just two or three days and then they force feed him. And force feeding is a. You know, it's an incredibly brutal and invasive process. And basically he dies during the course of being force fed. You know, he's weakened, he's sick, he's starving. And his death becomes this great sacrifice for the cause. And then his funeral becomes a huge deal, doesn't it? I mean, massive turnout at his funeral of these volunteers, of people who've joined. And the famous. Maybe you read it, Paul. The famous oration that is given by Michael Collins after shots have rung out over the grave.

[Tom Holland]

Because it's not a long oration, is it?

[Paul Rouse]

It's one of those where Collins says, after the volley of shots, nothing additional remains to be said. That volley, which we have just heard, is the only speech which it is proper to make above the grave of a dead Fenian.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. And one of these kind of symbolic moments, isn't it? And do you think there's a sense at this point, so we're in 2H19, that the momentum has shifted beyond recovery, that effectively the revolutionaries have seized control of the narrative?

[Paul Rouse]

I think they are seizing rather than seized. I don't think the momentum is entirely with them yet. I think there was a large wind in their sails. And Dublin Castle is clear. The leading officials are clear on this. The Thomas Ashe funeral is massive now. It's probably one of the most noticed things in history that the Irish love a good funeral in any point, but the police, political funerals in Ireland or something else entirely. And what this meant on the day was a huge organization of volunteer strength. They basically took over the middle of, of Dublin, took over the middle of the city and marched the coffin from beside where you're staying alongside Dublin Castle from City hall, which they got from the city to run. Lay him in state. Huge crowds come to see his body lying in state. He is then walked through the city behind a carte with guns. Everyone there's guns being fired in the city again over his body and Dublin Castle are there. This is a huge moment and swells of people begin to join the volunteers now.

[Tom Holland]

But Paul, could I also ask what also happens famously in 1917 is the Russian Revolution.

[Paul Rouse]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And Dublin Castle. So will be the intelligence authorities there will start to frame what is happening in Irish nationalist circles as informed by Bolshevik. And is that serving to kind of raise alarm bells back in London where of course the government is still focused on winning the war?

[Paul Rouse]

It really isn't, Tom. There's things being thrown left and right and it's the words are there. But what's happening in Ireland is seen to be manageable compared to what's happening on the Western Front. Everything is suborn to the war and everything by the way, has been supported to get America into the war and on their side. So Irish policy is almost framed with the idea of not upsetting Irish America too much to the point that it will, that will keep Wilson, the President Wilson of America out of, of the war.

[Tom Holland]

So America much more important than Russia and British enormously.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So let's come to a massive, a game changing moment, a real watershed in this story. So Britain had introduced conscription in 1916 and it was an issue that had effectively split the Liberal movement, the Liberal Party, a lot of liberals, kind of Asquithian Liberals, were horrified by the idea of conscription. They thought, you know, it's a complete attack on civil liberties and whatnot. But it had been introduced in Britain, but not in Ireland because they recognized that in Ireland it would be incendiary to force people to fight for king and country. And there'd been lots of talk about it. And then in 1918, the picture completely changes. And here we go back to the importance of the First World War. The Germans launch their last throw, Ludendorff's last throw, the spring offensive. They look like they're gonna get through all the way to Paris. It looks like the war is gonna be lost for the Allies. And at that point the Tories in particular in Britain say to lawyer George, come on, mate, this is ridiculous that we're not conscripting men in Ireland when we're already doing it in Britain. We have to do it in Ireland as well. Cause it just looks terrible to people in Britain that we're not doing it. And of course, as we know, this is an absolute own goal. I mean, it's like Lloyd George is taking a rifle and aiming it at his foot.

[Tom Holland]

The Irish Chief Secretary famously says, you might as well recruit Germans.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So why is it so. So conscription is. Is such a colossal disaster, isn't it, for the cause of moderate nationalism as well as unionism?

[Paul Rouse]

I guess it is a disaster on every front for people who wish for the union to be maintained. For the government, it was a humiliating moment. For the government, it was a disaster for the Irish Parliamentary Party. Moderate nationalism, which was already under threat from Sinn Fein, but was destroyed by what happens, what happens next. And what happened next was, first of all, the Irish Parliamentary Party walked out of the House of Commons where it had still held its seats, led by John Dillon. John Renton at this stage, was dead. Dead. He had died earlier in 1918. His brother Willie, also an MP, had died fighting for the British Army. So, again, so this is a man whose life ended coming so close to the ultimate success that had eluded Parnell, eluded Daniel o' Connell. And this was a man who was on the cusp on the. When the war started, of absolute success. Now the war is going on. He dies in pain, his brother is dead, and now his party is taken over by John Dylan, leader of the party in Dublin. And he walks out of the House.

[Tom Holland]

Of Commons following the example of Sinn.

[Paul Rouse]

So the Irish Parliamentary Party. Well, the Irish Parliamentary Party had successfully resisted the implementation of conscription in Ireland before then. But everything that the Irish Parliamentary Party had stood for was gone in that moment. They come home and they're now on a platform, in meetings with Sinn Fein, who they would have previously looked on as corner boys on a rabble to some extent. And Catholic bishops are there as well. So this is the respectability of the Catholic Church. And, Tom, you've made the point about how central religion was to society 100 years ago, much more so than now for Catholic bishops to be sharing with Republicans who had. Some of whom had previously been excommunicated from. From the church. And with moderate nationalism. And Sinn Fein is saying, we told you so.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Paul Rouse]

And they have the power. They run now, and the conscription. They managed to create a conscription, it should be said, by the way, that the labor movement and the Labor Party was huge in this as well, because. Because of the general strikes that were run during this period, which basically showed the government that this wasn't going to be workable. You were going to need to bring 100,000 soldiers here to get people to conscript.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, just to kind of stick up for Lloyd George. I mean, he. And you've been saying this throughout, that the focus of the British government is on the Western Front and Lloyd George is staring down the barrel of defeat. So again, he must be thinking, you know, I've got to throw everything at this. And he actually compares himself to Lincoln, doesn't he?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But he's also the reason Lloyd George is doing this is not. Not just because of the military situation, it's because of his own political situation. He relies on Conservative support and the Conservatives effectively are saying to him, if you don't do this, we'll withdraw support because we think it's. It's a matter of principle that Ireland is treated the same as Britain.

[Paul Rouse]

He was not someone who had an instinctive connection or sympathy with the Irish cause in any shape or form. He didn't really see why Ireland should be different than Wales.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, this is actually a really interesting thing with Lloyd George. His Welshness actually works against. Because he says, come on, we're Celts to. And we have our own differences with the English, so why can't you be just like us?

[Paul Rouse]

Yes. And he was a part of that strain also of. Of English society or Welsh society, British society, which was anti Catholic. He had. He had kind of adverged, depending on who you were talking to in that area, between distaste and distrust as a blind hatred, depending on which way you go. Not necessarily Lloyd George, but that community.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

All told, we're approaching the end of the episode. What's obviously happened is the conscription crisis has turbocharged, has accelerated a process that was already underway, which is radicalization. So you get a massive influx, don't you, into people. They're signing pledges and petitions, they're joining Sinn Fein. Young men. Well, we'll talk about this.

[Tom Holland]

And young women as well.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Young women are joining groups. Young men. And we'll talk about this in the next episode. What kind of people are joining the paramilitary groups? Young men are joining the Irish Volunteers. And the governments have really lost control of the story. What do. So you're the Irish man and woman in the street. If we can massively simplify and generalise, what do they think at this stage, is it possible to Say, or is there a sort of general picture? How much does the propaganda matter in changing their outlook?

[Paul Rouse]

I think the propaganda does matter because you are basically now faced with a movement which is placed a very straightforward proposition in front of a population. And it is this. We are either patriots fighting the regime or we are complicit in its tyranny. And there's a new mass movement now which is kind of a populist national movement. It's changed from that kind of ginger groups of Republicans or radicals or feminists or socialists. And it's got broad ideas of patriotism now which are hung always on kind of ideas of the ballads that are being sung or the flags that are being flown or a broad sway of program. Where I look at the agrarian program. It wasn't just that Ireland were going to redistribute large farms to the people who tenant farmer them or the tenant farmers would get their farms made larger. People who are land laborers were going to be given farms as well. I mean, they basically planned they were going to expand the land mass of the island so much were they, were they going to do. But that's what you do is, isn't it, when you're trying to win any argument. And that's what they went for.

[Tom Holland]

And so the British government feel that they're facing a hydra. And when faced with a hydra, the. The temptation is to try and cut off the heads. And so this is what they do in the summer of 1918, when essentially they manufacture a plot that comes to be known as the German plot. The idea that the heads, you know, basically all the people they want to in turn are complicit with the Germans. And it's done on very, very sketchy information. But it's enough for them to start arresting people that they want to have in prison rather than out on the streets.

[Paul Rouse]

The information is so sketchy that it's based on that members of the British Cabinet and around it are kind of going. They're utterly disbelieving of it, but. But Lloyd George is humiliated and they're bent on making a statement. So it hangs around the fact that an Irishman who had been in the British army, had been captured, had been a POW in Germany, tried to be recruited to caseman's cause to come back over here. He was found in a. In a boat on off County Clare on his own. So wild rumors then begin to spread of a German plot. And 73 leaders of Sinn Fein were arrested, including Dera and Griffiths. But Michael Collins knew what was going to happen and so did Richard Mulcahy. Because they already had spies deep within the British system, both in Dublin Castle and in its military forces, and they were able to tip people off. Now, some of the sinn leaders were more than happy to be arrested because of course there is an enormous value in the publicity of it. But Collins and Mukahi slipped away.

[Tom Holland]

And Dublin cars don't even have photographs of Collins, so they don't know what he looks like.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But of course they don't have photographs of. They have very few photographs. I mean, this is an age when you don't have many photographs of people.

[Tom Holland]

But you can, the, the strategy can either be you put yourself center and you take your martyrdom, you go to prison, or you slip into the shadows and you preserve your mystique as the master of spies. Which is what Colin and the amazing.

[Paul Rouse]

Thing about this is in the report, the commission of investigation into the rising of 1916. The report was. It's, it's a fantastic document which people can find online. It's 16 pages and must be read because it's, it's, it's, it's so bizarre. The Lord Lieutenant is excused of all blame. Everything is placed on Dublin Castle's Chief secretary, Augustine Barrell, and its undersecretary, Matthew Nathan. Britain and they say there was. The police and the military were brilliant. They'd done nothing wrong. They told everything what happened and that their intelligence was really good. And time and time again it's revealed the opposite is the case. It was proven to be so when it came to internment. It was proven to be so again in the German plot. So this is a state which is really creaking.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So at this point, just before we move into the election at the end of 1918, at this point, do you think the game is actually already up for the British? Do you think there's any way back for them?

[Paul Rouse]

There is no doubt that there has to be a Home Rule Parliament of some description. The question is how much power that Parliament is going to get and is it going to take war or the giving of dominion status, for example, which doesn't seem to be on the agenda. And all the while, all the while there is the problem of Ulster, which has not been resolved by anybody, not by the British and not by Irish nationalists who don't a have plan.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right. So November 1918, the war ends. The German offensive has petered out. The Germans have collapsed. There are great celebrations. The war is over. And a month later, on 13th December 1918, at last, the United Kingdom goes to the polls and effectively you've got two separate elections going on, one in Great Britain and one in Ireland. And this is a landmark election for all kinds of reasons. All men over the age of 21 can have vote, all the women over the age of 30. So the electorate in Ireland has what, more than doubled.

[Paul Rouse]

It's trebled, I think. Tom our, our Dominic has traveled from 700,000 to almost 2 million.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Like 7 out of 10 people are voting for the first time.

[Paul Rouse]

For first time.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So it's impossible to predict how they'll vote. And the big winners of this are Shin Fein. And their manifesto is. It's, it's a brilliant manifesto because it's simultaneous vague, but also very clear because they have basically three big goals. Don't they talk us through their goals?

[Paul Rouse]

So there are three big goals are to establish an independent Irish Republic. And there's a brilliant phrase after this, which is hugely important for what happens next in the War of Independence, which we'll be talking about in the next episode. It says, we will establish an independent Irish Republic by any and every means available to render impotent the power of England to hold Irish Ireland in subjection by military force or otherwise. That's the phrase that is used to legitimize a war of independence. It says it has the support of the public as given by the polls on it. So its first plan is to establish an independent Irish Republic. Its second plan is to withdraw from the House of Commons. So they think they're going to win 80 seats. There's 100 odd seats in Ireland. They think they're going to win 80 seats in this election and they say we're not going. We're going to establish our own parliament here. And the third point is hugely important and this is massive in the papers at the time, and I think it's been lost a little bit in it, is the importance of the Paris Peace Conference. The Paris Peace Conference. Sinn Fein said, we are going to Paris. Wilson has his 14 points. You've just fought a war for little Belgium.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Paul Rouse]

You've talked about the rights of small nations. So we're a small nation, we're a small country, we're going to Paris, we're going to get a seat in Paris and we're going to use our American leverage because of the power and potency of the Irish American lobby to get Wilson to support us to get a seat at that table. And we will be independent.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right, so the results, Sinn Fein win 73 seats, the Unionists win 26. And what's left of the Moderates, the Irish Parliamentary Party. They're reduced to just six seats. So, I mean, this is really a revolution in Irish politics, isn't it?

[Paul Rouse]

It's enormous and it's. It's complete wipeout. But the wipeout was on the way beforehand when Sinn Fein predicted 80 seats. It wasn't blind in what they were doing. This was an aging party whose time was done. Everything the Irish Parliamentary Party had fought for and won, they'd won Home rule. They just hadn't got it implemented. They had said that they had stopped conscription coming in for long periods, but Redmond had called for recruitment. So they got no good out of that at all. They said that they had argued that the prisoners should be released early from prison in England, but they weren't the prisoners themselves. They were standing against the prisoners now. And loads of them just retired. And in large swathes of the country, they had not been opposed in elections for 40 years. So they didn't have a machine to fight back against Sinn Fein.

[Tom Holland]

So it's a complete changing of the guard. I mean, one might almost say a revolution. And I suppose for people in Ireland, there's the question of where next? How is the state going to be governed? What's the future? And in Britain, there's the prospect that even as the guns, the crumping of the guns are falling silent on the Western Front, storm clouds of war may be gathering over Ireland and over the United Kingdom.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So if people want to find out what happens next, they could join our own revolutionary brotherhood. The Rest is History. Clear club. And as Paul undoubtedly knows, you can do [e-mail] but we will be back with Paul for the next installment of this thrilling story with the Irish War of Independence. Goodbye.

[Tom Holland]

Goodbye.

[Paul Rouse]

Goodbye.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Hi, everybody. You're still here right at the end of the episode. I'm very impressed, impressed by your commitment. But listen, I have a question for you. I want to ask you something in confidence. Do you sometimes listen to the adverts on these episodes and do you sometimes think. Do you know what? I wish that the listeners to this podcast, I wish they were listening to an advert about my brand rather than the other stuff that Tom and Dominic are promoting on here. If you have thought that there is, of course, only one way to find out what that would be like. You can disrupt the procession of adverts. You could be the next HSBC premiere or the many other tremendous companies that have advertised on the Rest is History. And you could put your brand in front of millions of like minded listeners by advertising on the rest is history. And indeed the other shows on the Goal Hanger network. Now you may be thinking I don't know what the Goal Hanger network is. Gohanger are the company behind this very show. And if you are in the market to increase the value of your brand, Gohanger would love to hear from you. You can register your interest or indeed your company's interest by going to goalhanger.com right now. And that is Goal. G O A L Hanger H A N G E Com.