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- [00:00]
Dominic Sandbrook
Thank you for listening to the Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series and membership of our much loved chat community, go to thereestishory.com and join the club that is.
- [00:14]
Tom Holland
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- [00:49]
Ronan McGreevey
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- [01:30]
Laurie
My dear Ms. Collins, don't let them make you miserable about it. How could a born soldier die better than at the victorious end of a good fight, falling to the shot of another Irishman? A damn fool all the same. An Irishman who thought he was fighting for Ireland. A Roman to a Roman. I met Michael for the first and last time on Saturday last, and I'm very glad I did. I rejoice in his memory. I will not be so disloyal as to snivel over his valiant death. So treat up your mourning and hang up your brightest colors. In his honor. Let us all praise God that he did not die in a snuffy bed of a trumpery cough, weakened by age and saddened by the disappointments that would have attended his work had he lived.
- [02:15]
Dominic Sandbrook
So that, ladies and gentlemen, was original authentic archive of George Bernard Shaw writing to Hannie Collins, the sister of Michael Collins, on 25 August 1922 and three days earlier, Michael Collins, surely the most charismatic of all Ireland's independence heroes, the Director of Intelligence of the Irish Republican army, signatory to the Anglo Irish Treaty, and then the head of Government, the Provisional Government of the Irish Free State and commander of its national army. He had been shot dead by his former comrades at a crossroads near Bayle Nablaw in rural County Cork. Tom, you know, I'm a great fan of County Cork, and this is one of the most hotly debated moments in all Irish history, isn't it? Some people see it as a tragedy, others see it as, you know, Collins got his just desserts, a massive turning point in Ireland's history.
- [03:04]
Dominic
Well, is it? We'll discuss that. Whether Collins would have set Ireland on a different course. But certainly it is the most emblematic moment in this terrible conflict which follows on directly from the Irish War of Independence. And you see people who've been fighting the British turning on themselves. And it's a moment in Irish history that is much less commemorated in Irish memory for obvious reasons, because all the romance, all the, the poetry of the War of Independence, it gets dissolved and, and crushed and ends up with this kind of squalid moment where the great hero of the, of the Irish War of Independence is lying dead in his own county.
- [03:48]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, I think getting two Oxbridge Englishmen to talk about the Irish Civil War is madness. So the great news is that we're still in the Four Court Dublin, which is where the Civil War started. So if you hear Laurie's rumbling past, that is why. But the most exciting thing, we are joined by a great friend of the Rest Is History. Distinguished journalist for the Irish Times, the author of a brilliant book on the assassination of Sir Henry Wilson, Great Hatred, our pal Ronan McGreevey. Ronan, welcome back to the Rest Is History.
- [04:16]
Laurie
Thank you so much, Dalek.
- [04:17]
Dominic Sandbrook
So let's remind ourselves what's been going on. I'll attempt to summarize the world's most complicated historical question in about 40 seconds. So there's been a huge split over the Anglo Irish Treaty, a split both in the Irish Nationalist elite and in the Irish Republican army in the early months of 1922. And anti treaty IRA men have occupied the building we're in right now, the Four Courts.
- [04:41]
Dominic
And Dominic, do you know what the Daily Mail said about this? They said that this sort of thing must stop.
- [04:46]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, they were right.
- [04:46]
Dominic
Which I think is a very Father Ted approach to the complexities of Irish history.
- [04:51]
Dominic Sandbrook
So the anti treaty IRA men have been in this building. The trigger comes when Sir Henry Wilson, as we talked about last time, is assassinated in Belgravia. In London, the British, particularly Lloyd George and Churchill, effectively deliver an ultimatum to the Provisional Government. And we ended last time with these Howitzers on the bridges outside where we are now being British guns opening fire and shelling the building. So Ronan, take us through the story, what happens next because the fighting lasts for three days I think are in this building.
- [05:21]
Laurie
Yes. So the fighting lasts for three days in the forecast courts. They first of all they had to find some people to operate the guns. And this is an interesting part of the Civil War is that there's a huge number of former British soldiers in the national army. So initially they hadn't embedded the guns down properly and the the shells were flying way over the fore courts.
- [05:44]
Dominic
Don't they hit the British headquarters on the other side?
- [05:46]
Laurie
They did, yes and they were very, very inaccurate. But then eventually they did find their range and they started to at really point blank range started to make holes in the walls here. And it was dangerous thing that they were doing. I mean they were basically storming the building. But on the third day, just when the garrison inside, their situation is hopeless, they're not able to escape. The public records office which is on the site here is blown up in a massive explosion. Public records office is the Irish National Archive. It's the archive going back to the 12th century and everything in there is destroyed. The census going back to the first part of the pre famine census going back to 1821. Chancery records, grants of land, payments made to spies, payments made to headhunters, the records of the various chief secretaries to Ireland, centuries of Church of Ireland parish records, everything goes up in this massive conflagration. And there's a famous quote in Ernie o' Malley's book. Ernie o' Malley was one of the anti treaty and he was talking about this white rain that was coming down this paper that was coming down on top of the people of Dublin. So basically the archives were destroyed. That's the most famous thing about the battle for the folklore. It lasts three days. The garrison surrenders and the provisional government hopes that's the end of it. But the anti treaties decide to fight on. So the fight moves to O' Connell street which is the site in 1916 where the GPO is located. And the whole of the west side of the GP of O' Connell street had been very badly damaged in the 1916 rise. And so now it was the turn of the east side, northeast side where there was a whole hotel complex which was the Dublin IRA was located. So again the 18 pounders are opened up and there's about 80 people killed in Dublin in this time period. And so the battle for Dublin is fairly quick and Decisive. And so the anti treaty rebels take to the countryside.
- [07:58]
Dominic Sandbrook
So to remind people the IRA had split. On the one hand you have Michael Collins and Richard Mulcahy and people like that who are commanding what's now called the National Army.
- [08:06]
Laurie
Yes.
- [08:06]
Dominic Sandbrook
Fighting for the Provisional Government. On the other hand you have, I guess, De Valera.
- [08:10]
Laurie
Yeah.
- [08:10]
Dominic Sandbrook
And the other, the IRA irregulars, their commander is a guy called Liam Lynch.
- [08:15]
Laurie
That's right.
- [08:15]
Dominic Sandbrook
Who's about 30, 31. Very young.
- [08:17]
Laurie
27, I think.
- [08:18]
Dominic Sandbrook
27, crikey. So at that point, actually, if you look at the numbers the anti Treaty people seem to have the. There are more of them, right?
- [08:26]
Laurie
Yes.
- [08:26]
Dominic Sandbrook
And they think they're going to win.
- [08:27]
Laurie
That's right. So in March 1922, the Anti Treaty IRA said that 80% of their members are anti the treaty. And they have over almost 13,000 men under arms. And only seven of the 16 IRA divisions from the War of Independence are on the side of the Free State government. So this looks like a fairly perilous position for the Free State Government. However, the Free State Government have the support of the British. And the British have an unending arsenal of weapons that they have accumulated from the First World War. And within like two months they've given the Irish 40,000 rifles.
- [09:09]
Dominic
And can I ask, do the Treatyites fight harder than the British had done with these weapons?
- [09:16]
Laurie
Well, they absolutely did. And because they were fighting, I mean, most of those who had been involved in the Black and Tanzanic auxiliaries were mercenaries. We didn't have a stake in this. It was mostly for money. But the Provisional Government, the pro treaty forces, were fighting for their survival. And they were fighting for the survival of an infant state that was like threatened to be stillborn.
- [09:38]
Dominic
And this state, Eamon De Valera, who was the elected president, I mean, he's against what the state embodies. Large sections of the army, the IRA are against it as well. So what is the constitutional situation? Who is in command of the army and who is in command of the government once De Valera and large numbers of the IRA have arranged in opposition to it?
- [10:02]
Laurie
Well, the provisional government is seven members, famously described by Kevin o' Higgins as seven, eight young men sitting in a. In. In the building with wild men screaming through the keyhole and with one administration gone and another one not formed. So they're in a very precarious situation. But their situation is, is. Is Strengthened by the June 1922 election on 16 June, bearing in mind this is only six days before Wilson is assassinated, which the Anti treaty side are ro they only get less than 22% of the vote. Most people in Ireland want to get on with their lives. They don't care about the oath. They don't care. They've had eight years of war going back to the start of the First World War, want to get on with things. So and. And the British government grasped this fact and. And Lloyd George and Churchill are telling the Provisional government, you have the mandate to govern, get on with it.
- [10:54]
Dominic
And specifically to Michael Collins, right?
- [10:56]
Laurie
Yes.
- [10:56]
Dominic
Because Churchill in particular thinks Michael Collins is someone that the British government can negotiate with. And am I right that in the. On the 1st of July, Collins announces that he is going to take over as commander in chief of the army. He's also in the government.
- [11:11]
Laurie
Yes.
- [11:11]
Dominic
And I know that this will sound, maybe a provocative thing to say in the context of our Irish listeners, but I am reminded of Cromwell, a revolutionary against monarchy. Whoever throws a monarchy and then faced with divisions among parliamentarians and military opponents makes himself essentially in command of both the military and the just.
- [11:36]
Dominic Sandbrook
For people listening who can't see the pictures, Ronan has just had to be physically restrained from doing injury to Tom.
- [11:44]
Dominic
I mean, is there any justice in that comparison?
- [11:45]
Laurie
Well, I think basically the Irish Civil War has been framed as a battle between democrats and those who don't support democracy. So as I explained the. There have been three democratic votes in favor of the treaty but the anti treaty was side and, and Dominic talked about this before Eminem who said the people have no right to do wrong. Right. So Collins on the 1st of July, as you say, he becomes commander in chief. He's in the government as well. He has basically the government assumes dictatorial powers. The parliament that's elected in June, it doesn't sit until September because. Because it's a civil war. I mean you could have the same. You could say as well, why isn't Zelensky being, you know, why is there elections in Ukraine? You can't have elections when there's a war going on. There's a civil war going on. So yeah, he does assume a huge amount of power in that time period.
- [12:42]
Dominic
But I suppose one way in which he's. I mean one of the many ways in which he, like Cromwell, but a very salient one is he hasn't actually had any military experience, has he?
- [12:49]
Laurie
No. And that we can talk about that when it comes to the circumstances in which he shot but certainly the national army starts to recruit very quickly, so any. Any disadvantages they had in terms of men and material is gone. Very quickly. I mean they basically, not unlike the First World War, they have, they set up recruiting stations and there, there's a huge response and of course there's a lot of. Because the Ireland have participated on the side of the UK in the First World War, there's a lot of ex servicemen who are unemployed and looking for, for a job.
- [13:22]
Dominic Sandbrook
So let's look at the course of the war a little bit and something that strikes me as a big problem for the anti treatyites or the irregulars as they called, is that if you, if you support the treaty, if you're on Michael Collins's side, you know exactly what you want. You want the treaty, you want the Free State, you just want to crack on again with your lives. If you're anti the treaty, your goals are a little bit more nebulous, aren't they? They're not. You're not exactly for anything. You're, you're for the nebulous idea of an Irish independent Irish Republic. Do you think that's a, that that political issue is a big problem for them in terms of winning the war? The anti Treaty idea?
- [13:54]
Laurie
Yes, it is, because a Republic's not on offer at this stage and most people are, as I've said before, they're really ground down by the War of Independence, the Easter Rising, and they just want to get on with their lives. And you're right, they have framed it in the sense of being against something as opposed to having a different offering. And they're talking about a republic. But the British are not going to grant a republic. De Valera knows this, so he comes up with this idea called document number two. He comes up with this idea and this is as nuanced as the differences between them. He talks about external association, he draws because he's a mathematician. He tries to explain it with all these kind of pie charts and that, but essentially what it means is that the Free State is associated with the Commonwealth, but not part of the Commonwealth. And therefore the British monarch is not the head of state. And there's no oath of allegiance, which.
- [14:47]
Dominic
Is kind of genius, isn't it? I mean, it kind of works. But none of his enemies, whether they're British or pro treaty, are going to accept that kind of formulation.
- [14:56]
Laurie
Well, exactly. And Fast forward to 1920 when he's forced to take the oath of office. He says it's just a piece of paper. If he only had said that in 1922, we could have avoided the Civil War.
- [15:05]
Dominic Sandbrook
So on the Civil War, the anti Treaty strategy effectively is to hold the south and west, right. They have Liam lynch, who we mentioned has this dream of a monster republic. He thinks basically, if we can hold the south and west, then all that will be left is this treaty rump and that will become unviable.
- [15:19]
Laurie
Yes.
- [15:20]
Dominic Sandbrook
Is that ever realistic that he can do this, have this monster republic?
- [15:23]
Laurie
No, it's not. And this is the problem. You see this war, this war, they're making it up as they go along. I mean, no matter what anybody says, neither side is prepared for a war, so they haven't made any contingencies. So Liam lynch talks about setting up a fastnet in a line between Limerick and Waterford and everywhere south of that line is the Munster republic. But that's quickly breached In July and August 1922, this new book by an Irish army officer called Gar Prendergast, when he talks about this and how quickly they were able to overwhelm the garrisons in boat Waterford and. And in Limerick. But there's also fighting. There's actually two armies fighting each other in Kilmallock, County Limerick. So extraordinary spectacle of. These guys were fighting together a year previously and they're fighting over open territory in County Limerick. But the odds are all against the anti treaty side once the war gets underway. And then in the coup de grace really for the sort of conventional operations of the war is the amphibious landings that the national army have twice in Cork and once in Kerry.
- [16:33]
Dominic
And again, are they held there by the British?
- [16:35]
Laurie
Yes, they are. The commandeer a couple of ferries and they have a British Royal Navy escort into the bays in Cork. So obviously the British are on the side of the National Army. They want the national army to win. The reason why they decide to take to the sea to attack the monster republic is because all the roads and railways have been destroyed and there's a huge amount of fiscal physical destruction in the war done by the ira.
- [17:01]
Dominic Sandbrook
So with the capture of Cork City, which is, I think the 10th of August, that's the. The last great sort of dramatic set piece of the Civil war. So actually it's been done and dusted very quickly in a matter of weeks.
- [17:10]
Dominic
Well, apparently two thirds of those killed in the civil war die in its first three months.
- [17:13]
Dominic Sandbrook
But here's the interesting thing. The Civil War doesn't end there. The anti Treatyites think, well, we can now just revert to a guerrilla campaign.
- [17:22]
Laurie
That's right. So they were going to do to the north, to the Free State, what they had done to the British. They were going to set up ambushes, what they call Nowadays an asymmetrical war. So this is. Instead of sort of taking their beating, so to speak, they retreat to the countryside. A lot of them are now doctrinaire republicans. They're not going to give up no matter what happens. And even though there are peace feelers out there and we're talking about Emma Davalero at that time was thinking that maybe the game was up, but the reality is that the war was going to continue on.
- [17:55]
Dominic Sandbrook
Where is he at this point? Where is De Valera?
- [17:57]
Laurie
Funny enough, he's actually. When we come to the assassination of Michael Collins, he's actually in Cork. He's very close to where Collins is. But de Valera is kind of sidelined at this stage. I mean, he lights the match but the conflagration goes off without him. And he's basically ceded control to the militarists at this stage.
- [18:15]
Dominic
To a degree, Michael Collins has too. Because Collins is a man from Cork, from the southwest of Ireland. He's a man who has sponsored kind of shadowy guerrilla warfare, who has taken on the forces of the British Crown. And now he finds himself facing rebels in, you know, around County Cork. He's fighting a guerrilla war. He's using guns and ammunition supplied to him by the British. I mean, he must find this very, very painful.
- [18:42]
Laurie
It's painful for all of them. It's really a surreal thing to have people that, you know, were your comrades in arms and you've. Within the space of a year you are killing people who are your own flesh and blood, really. And it splits families. There are families on both sides of the divide as well. So Collins is. Collins wants the war ended. I mean, this is one of the questions we ask when he goes down south in August 1922. Was he trying to bring an end to the Civil War?
- [19:12]
Dominic
So why do you think he goes to caucus in. In.
- [19:15]
Laurie
Well, he goes to 1920. He goes to Cork for three reasons. The first one is he. He wants to inspect the. The garrison seller there. He wants to see what's happening. The second reason is that he has heard on the grapevine that the anti treaty side who had been occupying Cork had taken a huge amount of money in, in revenues from customs and so on.
- [19:37]
Dominic
So of course he'd been the finance minister.
- [19:38]
Laurie
Yeah, he wanted to get the money. He wanted to get the money back. And there's questions whether he was there to. To try and bring bang heads and bring sides together. You hear conflicting reports about that. But he does write to WT Cosgrave on 21 August the day before he's bailing the block, he says, you know, the people don't want us to parlay or they don't want any compromise with the, with the irregular system called at that stage. And he's also down there to. He wants to meet his own people. You know, he's, he's a corkman through and through. He has. And you'll see on his final day, he's calling in and seeing his family he hasn't seen for a long time.
- [20:16]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right, well, after the break, we'll get on to the events that day and we will go through Collins's movements and his fate. And then we'll ask what happens at the end of the Civil War and how it's remembered. And we'll deal with that in a few moments. See you then. This is a paid advertisement from Better Hell. Workplace stress is now one of the top causes of declining mental health, with 61% of the global workforce experiencing higher than normal levels of stress. I suffer enormous workplace stress because I work from home and there's the loneliness and the pressure, and so I have to seek help sometimes. I'm not ashamed to admit it. And you too can take steps this summer to focus on your wellness and the steps that you take to manage your workday challenges. Don't forget that therapy can help you navigate whatever challenges the workday or any day might bring. BetterHelp can teach you positive coping skills and how to set boundaries when that work stress just gets too much. It empowers you to be the best version of yourself. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com restishistory that's better. H-E-L-P.com restishory.
- [21:40]
Millie Bright
Hi, everyone. Millie Bright and Rachel Daly. Here from the rest is Football Daily Brightness. With the women's Euros underway, we want to tell you how we'll be covering the Euros and all the games this summer and also what it means to have a little bit of Daily brightness in your life. For those of you that don't know, myself and Millie were the of part. Part of the England team that lifted the Oros in 2022 and will be giving all insights and detailed information about what life is like in camp and what the girls may be experiencing this summer. We will be discussing all the big stories that come out of this summer's tournament and we'll be cheering on England as They look to defend their title. We'll also talk about our lives outside of the game and what we get up to, whether it's DIY time on the golf course, highs and lows of football and the challenges that we face and things that we are eternally grateful for. It's going to be an incredibly exciting summer and we'd love you to join us and come along the journey with us. Just search the Rest Is Football Daily Brightness. Wherever you get your podcast, don't forget to subscribe and also follow us on Instagram and Tick Tock.
- [22:43]
Dominic Sandbrook
Welcome back to the Rest Is History. Ronan It is 22 August 1922, and Michael Collins has returned to his home county in Cork. Take us through the events of that day.
- [22:57]
Laurie
So being the sort of energetic man that he is, he's up at 6:30 in the morning, they leave the Imperial Hotel in Cork and it's a very big contingent.
- [23:07]
Dominic
He's staying in the Imperial Hotel.
- [23:09]
Laurie
Yes, I know. And there's a Michael Collins room there.
- [23:12]
Dominic
Yeah, the optics of that are very bad.
- [23:16]
Laurie
So he's basically going around with a very large escort in an open top Leyland touring car with a man by the name of Emmett Dalton, who is the general who takes Cork. And he's only 24 years of age in, in August, so he's, he has a very busy day ahead of him. He, he's going to meet some of his commanders in the, in the southwest. He's also going to meet some friends, he's going to try and meet some of the people who are pro treaty. And the thing about this is, even though we know that the conventional war is over, this is still very much anti treaty territory. And it's a provocative gesture on the part of Collins to go into this part of West Cork. But as far as he's concerned, this is his home county and he's not going to be kept out of it. And he's alleged to have said there are many apocryphal statements, so I can't vouch for this. But he's apparently said, they'll never shoot me in my own county. So he goes off and it's an absolute marathon day and it's beset with a lot of pride problems. There's a lot of roads that are blocked or trees that are down. One of the cars breaks down and needs to be fixed. And in the morning they go past this pub called Longs Pub, which is at a crossroads just outside a place called which will live in infamy in Irish history. Is called Bel Nablaw and he is spotted there by a sentry attached to the anti treaty side. Entirely by coincidence there's a meeting that day that the anti treaty side have in Long's Pub and somebody spots Michael Collins. But by the time they spot him he's gone. So the opportunity is lost for them to ambush him. Then he then goes on, he goes visits the old homestead, he goes to visit his cousins in Caharbeg. He goes out as far as Skibbereen which is a long way and this is with a big contingent of men. He meets his commanding officers at the Eldon Hotel and then on his way back he stops at Sam's Cross, the Four Alls Public house and he buys drinks for everybody. It's the most infamous or famous drinking session in Irish history. He visits his brother Johnny and there's a drink taken. We don't know how many but the question is then is he a little bit get sazzled when right he's had a couple of times he's had a couple of pints in the Four Alls Public house. He's visiting his brother Johnny. He's in very good form and he thinks, he thinks they're in the clear and they're going to go back to Dublin and he's going to resume his activities to follow one day.
- [25:53]
Dominic Sandbrook
But meanwhile while he's been, you know, having a few pints and whatnot, these anti treatyites have made their plans, haven't they? Because they know he's probably going to come back the same way.
- [26:02]
Laurie
Yes. And that is something that every army officer will tell you. Never come back the same way if you're in enemy territory.
- [26:10]
Dominic
But he has no choice because they.
- [26:12]
Laurie
Yeah, because all the ropes and things. So they're going to build Nabla which is it's ideal ambush territory. Right. There's a bend in the road, it's very steep on both sides of the road and there is a watch for him. And most of them have cleared off by about 8:30 as he passes the way we think it was around 8:30 it was certainly twilight. And what happens next is that the anti treaty men who are left is not a huge amount of them start fighting. And Emmett Dalton who is a former British army veteran of the first World War tells Collins that they should drive like hell. But Collins overrules him. Collins gets out of the car and starts shooting back. And what happens next is still a matter of conjecture but there's only one fatality in this incident. That's Michael Collins. He's Shot through the head. And that's it. He's one bullet, one fatality. We believe the bullet was fired from about 150 meters away. So whoever shot him must have been a trained marksman.
- [27:15]
Dominic Sandbrook
So there's a guy called Sonny o' Neill who a lot of people think it might have been.
- [27:18]
Laurie
Yes. So he is the chief suspect and he's named in a documentary in 1990 by one of the men who was part of the IRA intelligence. But there's a guy called Paddy Colavan who's done his own research on this and he has a. He has a stage play called the Murder of Michael Collins. And he said it couldn't have been Dennis Sonny o', Brien, because Dennis Sonny o' Brien wasn't a marksman and he had been in a German prisoner of war camp and he had 40% loss of movement in his trigger finger.
- [27:46]
Dominic
So was it the mafia or the Cubans?
- [27:48]
Laurie
So his, his theory is that he was shot by someone on his own side at the behest of the British. With respect to Paddy, he's a friend of mine. He won't let me say this, but I'm not inclined to go with that theory. But the autopsy, there was no inquest. There were so many things that were done that have given rise to speculation over the years. But I believe that he was shot by the anti treaty side. It was a terrible tragedy.
- [28:14]
Dominic
And isn't the broader theory that we mentioned how Collins, despite being commander in chief, had never actually fought in a gun battle, that in a sense he's kind of playing soldiers here?
- [28:26]
Laurie
Yes. Emmett Dalton, who fought at the Battle of the Somme, is a very interesting guy in his own right and had been beside another lost leader of Ireland, Tom Kettle, who was killed at the Battle of the Somme. Tom Kettle had been talked about as the first leader of a home rule Irish parliament. So Emmett Dalton says if he had known, if he, if he'd ever been in scrap, he would have kept his head down. That's what he says. So Collins's reputation is on getting others to do his bidding for him.
- [28:51]
Dominic Sandbrook
So. And of course he'd had. I mean those, that's why those pints are crucial, Right?
- [28:54]
Laurie
Yeah.
- [28:54]
Dominic Sandbrook
That he's had a couple of drinks and perhaps his judgment is. It only takes slightly impaired and met you a little bit more foolhardy than you would otherwise be. So here's the question with Collins. Collins is probably with De Valera. He's one of the single best known men in Irish, in modern Irish history. Does it matter that he was killed in August 1922. In other words, when you think about the trajectory of Irish history after the Civil War, what happens in the 1930s and 40s and so on, you know, would Michael Collins existence have changed all that? Does it really matter that he was killed?
- [29:26]
Dominic
I mean, the most famous, possibly pseudo comment on this, and you quote it in your, your book on Henry Wilson is the quotation from supposedly Eamon de Valera, which ends Neil Jordan's film.
- [29:38]
Laurie
Yeah.
- [29:38]
Dominic
On Michael Collins, which came out in 1996. Developer's Mentor said, it's my considered opinion that in the fullness of time, history will record the greatness of Collins and it will be recorded at my expense.
- [29:48]
Laurie
Yes, 1966, he's alleged to have said that. Yeah, a lot of people would agree with that. But to see the trouble with Collins is he's only 31 when he dies. He's not tainted by the messy compromises and the disappointments that would inevitably come trying to rule a new state. But I do think that the history of Ireland would have been different had he lived. I feel that he's a much more dynamic, practical minded person than very able.
- [30:14]
Dominic
Very good at the kind of practical business of running a government.
- [30:17]
Laurie
Yes, he was. And yet he was a trained banker and he had trained in the post office as well.
- [30:21]
Dominic
And I think also what's really impressive when you read about him, say going to the London to negotiate or whatever, or becoming, you know, involved in finance or military, whatever, is how quickly he learns.
- [30:32]
Laurie
Yeah, he's, he's, he's just, he's just a generational talent. And of course, when he dies, he's 31 and he's often cited, you know, what would, what would Michael Collins have done? And so on. And there was even. It just goes to show you what that sort of called the ads on the imagination. There was an article, one of the Irish papers here. There's this incredibly arcane debate outside about, about whether Irish camogie players, it's an Irish form of Harlan, should wear these things called skorts, which are a cross between shorts and a dress, or should they wear shorts. And the final paragraph in it is, well, if Michael Collins was around, he'd have shown the hypocrisy, the camogie association. And this is kind of, this is, this is. He's constantly evoked, oh, you know, he'd have done this, he'd have done that. I think, you know, we're in the great realms of the great man theory of history. I think the history of Ireland would have been different. It certainly would. Would not have accepted partition the way his colleagues in government accepted partition. I think that's fair to say.
- [31:26]
Dominic Sandbrook
Do you think the Catholic Church would have had the same degree of influence if he had lived? I mean, de Valera, clearly a more sort of clerical temperament. Do you think Collins would have been different? I mean, he's still a very good Catholic boy, isn't he?
- [31:36]
Laurie
Yeah, No, I don't think so. I think if Collins had lived, I think what would have been different was he would have been much more dynamic in trying to build Ireland up economically and so on. But, I mean, people have always. People have been speculating what would happen. Where was his attitude to the Catholic. There's no real evidence that he was any different from. From the rest of them. He was a very Catholic country and the Catholic Church had huge amount of power and sway here. I mean, they ran basically the health services and the education services, and the people were very devout. So whether he could have changed that, I don't know.
- [32:07]
Dominic Sandbrook
So let's get back to the wider picture. Collins was killed on the 22nd of August, but as we've said, the war continues for months afterwards. Yes, until the following summer. Although the conventional fighting is over and we're now talking about guerrilla fighting, there is a kind of an edge to it now, a nastiness. Is that right?
- [32:26]
Laurie
Yes.
- [32:26]
Dominic Sandbrook
So, for example, the Provisional Government start summary executions. The British, I think, had executed 24 people during the War of Independence. The Provisional Government executed, I think, almost 80. And there's a sort of. There's a real. There's a real edge to this now. And do you think that's because both sides have been brutalized by fighting for the war for so long? Or is it because it's the difference between a civil war and a war against occupiers, or what is it?
- [32:51]
Laurie
Well, the Provisional Government didn't feel constrained in many ways, as the British felt. And so what happens in September 1922 is that the government brings in the Public Safety act, which is basically give military tribunals the power to try and execute anti treaty forces. The anti treaty sides say that anybody who passes this legislation will be shot. And. And so you enter this phase of tit for tat killings, which seem extraordinary when you look back on it, how these people could have turned on each other like the way they did. So the Provisional Government starts executions in November 1922, and within a few weeks they've executed Erskine Childers, who a very famous author, the author of the Riddle of The Sands who is the secretary of the Anglo Irish delegation. He's found with a pistol in his cousin's house and they execute him. And then the worst aspect of it is. So the Free State comes into being officially a year after the treaty is signed on the 6th of December. On the 7th Sean Hales, who's one of Pro Treaty MPS or TDS is shot dead here on the Keys. And the following morning the newly established Free State government take out four men who'd been in the Four Courts and shoot them summarily without any pretense of a trial.
- [34:09]
Dominic
So Yates says that they're fighting like, like was it weasels in a hole?
- [34:14]
Laurie
Yeah, or something.
- [34:15]
Dominic
And of course it's not just Free State on anti treaty fighters. There is also, although the extent of it is, I know, very controversial, sectarian killings and expulsions of Protestants. And one of the great social transformations of this period is the decline of non Catholics in southern Ireland.
- [34:37]
Laurie
That's right.
- [34:37]
Dominic
And I suppose the other notorious social change is the destruction of what are called the great houses, the, the stately homes of the Anglo Irish ascendancy. Including Sir Henry Wilson's family home.
- [34:50]
Laurie
Yes.
- [34:50]
Dominic
Burnt down.
- [34:51]
Laurie
Well these are, these, these, these houses were, were burnt in the War of Independence because they were regarded as being places where sort of British Army, British troops were billeted and whatever. There was no rationale for the fact that there was over 100 than burnt by the anti treaty side in the Civil War other than really revenge for whatever it was. And one of the reasons that Henry Wilson was so against the Anglo Irish treaty because he believed there are 300,000 of my fellow Protestant or Unionists in the south, what's going to be their fate? And I suppose he would might feel vindicated by the fact that on the 16th of August 1922, six days after Donald O' Sullivan and are executed Curry grain houses burned to the ground and the Wilson family leave Ireland forever after that. And they were not bad family. I mean most of the people, their landlords and such, you know they did an awful lot of good in Ireland but they're gone and they never come back. And that is that, that, that's a really sad thing. And of course there is the issue, you know of a lot of the, as you say, the big houses were burnt and a lot of the houses of belonging to some, some of the Free State politicians were burned as well. It was a very, very very ugly time.
- [36:04]
Dominic Sandbrook
So on the war, the savagery of the war. So I was thinking about this. It does seem More savage in lots of ways than the War of Independence. But then I was thinking about contemporary conflicts. So we're in the early 1920s in Eastern Europe, in the Baltic, with the Fry Corps in Greece and Turkey, of course. And a comparison that's often made the Civil War on Finland, which kills, I think, about 25,000 people in the space of three months. Right. By those standards, the Irish Civil War, as bloody and as brutal as it is, is pretty restrained and it's remarkable how few people die. And why do you think that is, given what is at stake?
- [36:43]
Laurie
Well, it was, paraphrase Hobbes, nasty, brutish and short. It was only 11 months. And the number of people who are killed is just over 1400, which is not a huge amount, but the destruction is massive. And the caliber of people who were killed as well, you know, you're talking about some of the. Some of the finest people. Michael Collins being the most obvious example, but he wasn't the only one. And it's not as. It's not a civil war like the Finnish Civil War you mentioned, or the Spanish, or the American Civil War, which goes on for years and years and years. And that is one of the reasons why, relatively speaking, Ireland's able to recover fairly quickly after the Civil War.
- [37:22]
Dominic Sandbrook
So it ends in, what are we, the spring, summer of 1923. The IRA chief of staff, Liam lynch is killed. Yeah, he's killed in April, isn't he?
- [37:31]
Laurie
That's right. And his successor, Frank Aiken, has a dump arms order. And De Valera says, you know, victory is, though, with those who, who have destroyed the republic, this is his melodramatic way of putting it, so it peters out. More than that, it ends.
- [37:47]
Dominic
There's.
- [37:48]
Laurie
There's no armistice, there's no peace treaty, there's nothing like that. It just ends.
- [37:52]
Dominic
But one intriguing way in which I think perhaps the hatreds and the violence are pacified remarkably quickly, and it's perhaps the greatest achievement of Collins's regime is the fact that after all, the kind of paramilitary quality of policing in Ireland over the previous decade and more, he has instituted a kind of almost, dare I say, British style police force, a kind of unarmed civic police force. And that would be the Garda. And that is key, isn't it, that for the first time you start to get unarmed policemen going into police stations.
- [38:31]
Laurie
Policing by consent.
- [38:32]
Dominic
Policing by consent. And the vast mass of people in Ireland, of all temperaments, religions, perspectives, kind of accept that.
- [38:41]
Laurie
They do, yeah. And a lot of people say that the war wasn't necessary. It wasn't necessary, but it was decisive. And the most important legacy that the Civil War left is that the state would never be challenged in the same way again. And in fact, in 1932, there's a peaceful transition from the pro to the anti treaty side. So while it leaves a legacy of bitterness, the country survives. And I think that's the most important thing that the state survives. The real cruel legacy of the Civil War is that because the state was unable to deal with the issue of partition, so the afters in 1925, this boundary commission that's set up to draw the boundaries and had originally been anticipated, would give large swathes of the north to the south. It doesn't do that. And because the Free State government is so impoverished, the Free State government actually allows the border to stay in place as it is, in return for about 30 million pounds, which was the Irish share of the British imperial debt, because the Irish government's broke. And that that sows the seeds for the troubles which occurs later on.
- [39:47]
Dominic
Could I also just read you something that Charles Townsend writes at the end of his book the Republic, and he says, in fact and against the odds, the emergent Irish state, however tyrannical it seemed to its republican victims. So that's the anti Treatyites became a remarkably stable democracy. It may even have been too stable. The staters who battled the Republic to a standstill seem to have had their imaginative horizons shrunk by the experience. And I guess the stereotype of that would be that De Valera's island becomes.
- [40:15]
Laurie
Kind of craggy island.
- [40:18]
Dominic
Yeah, it's a place that people try to escape.
- [40:21]
Laurie
Yeah, it's true. I mean, there was just. If you look at the history of the Irish state from 1922, you're probably looking at the first 50 years were decades of underachievement. But then you look at the next 50 years and, you know, you get the full measure of independence. And, you know, Ireland is a very stable, wealthy country. It's got its problems like everybody else, but it's a full part of the. Full part of the, you know, the international community, so to speak. So it is remarkable. I mean, if you go to other countries like Spain, I've been to Spain, and the legacy of the Spanish Civil War is still there, but it's not in Ireland. The Civil War is not that. It's not an issue that divides people anymore. It probably hasn't been for the last 20.
- [41:03]
Dominic
Although to this day, the Irish political parties are defined by the role that they played.
- [41:08]
Laurie
Yes, but they're both in government now. So you have Fianna Fall, which is. Which is anti treaty. And then you. Fine, Gil, which is pro treaty, but they've been in government together to keep out Sinn. Yes to 2020, I think. I think Sinn Fein would probably be the. The real legacy of the anti treaty.
- [41:24]
Dominic Sandbrook
Can I ask a question that I think would puzzle a lot of our listeners and there's obviously often interested me, which is why De Valera, who's, you know, he's the last man standing of the big characters that we talked about to some extent, he had backed the losing side.
- [41:34]
Laurie
Yeah.
- [41:35]
Dominic Sandbrook
And yet he gets back into power reasonably quickly. I mean, you know, within the space of less than a generation, he's back in and then he stays in and he dominates the century. How was that possible when he'd lost the war and he had. And he had lost the argument.
- [41:50]
Laurie
Yes, he had lost the argument, but. But essentially next year's the 100th anniversary, the founding of Fianna Fall. He began to realize very quickly that this old thing was just a total impediment to any kind of political advancement. And 1927, Kevin O', Higgins, who, by the way, and we're talking about the viciousness of the Civil War, he's the Minister for Justice who orders one of them, who orders the execution of his best man at his wedding, Rory O'. Connor. Rory Kevin O' Higgins is assassinated in 1927. It's after. From the. From the war. And the Provisional Government, or the Free State Government at the time, says, if you want to take part in the Parliament, you've got to swear this oath. And De Valera walks into the. Walks in and he swears the oath. And then of course, the Cumming government becomes more and more unpopular, and De Valera starts saying, we'll do this, we'll do that. And by the 1930s comes along, 1932, you know, a lot of it has been forgotten about. The people want to change. The same government has been in for 10 years. And then he starts to dismantle the treaty, gets rid of the oath of allegiance. 1938, he gets. He gets the treaty ports back. These are three ports that the British insisted on keeping. And Churchill says, we have to keep these ports. And Chamberlain says, no, no, we're giving them back.
- [43:11]
Dominic
So Collins was completely right that he had one I and the freedom to become free.
- [43:16]
Laurie
Yes. And this is the thing. I mean, I think he's been vindicated. The one abiding issue, of course, in all of this is the issue of partition and this is the issue that is still a live subject today. I mean, I make the distinction between history and the Civil War's history and partition, which is current affairs. It's still a very important issue for an awful lot of people.
- [43:36]
Dominic
So when the Troubles break out in the 60s and intensify in the 70s, so much of the, of the language and the visual language of that derives from the Civil War period. So the Provisional Irish Republican Army.
- [43:49]
Laurie
Yeah, that's right.
- [43:50]
Dominic
The, the shoot, you know, the, as Collins has said about the only eulogy that that Athenian needs is this gunman firing over the grave. And all this comes out. And in a sense it's, it's a kind of very, very violent form of cosplay, isn't it?
- [44:06]
Laurie
Yes, it is. And in fact, the Provisional IRA in the 1970s would say that they were continuing on the fight from the anti treaty side. And the IRA never went away after 1923. It just, it just became sort of went underground and morphed into something else until 1969. So there's a direct continuity between, you know, the end of the Civil War and the, and the beginning of the war.
- [44:30]
Dominic
And also reading through this account, all the hunger strikes and the role that hunger strikes play in the, in the story of Irish independence and you realize the resonance, save Bobby Sands and the other hunger strikers that I suspect largely in Britain went completely. Nobody understood the resonance of that for Irish Republicans.
- [44:47]
Laurie
Yeah, because Terence McSweeney was, you know, he's a lord mayor of Cork who died on hunger strike in, in 1920 in, in Brixton Prison. And I mean, that was a direct imitation of that, the hunger strikes in 1980.
- [45:00]
Dominic Sandbrook
Right. Ronan, you know what? We're going to be kicked out of the forecourts, not by howitzers, but by, I think, a High Court judge, a judge who wants to use the room. So on that, I mean, thankfully not a bombshell, only a metaphorical bombshell, we bring this mighty series to an end. Ronan, you've been a brilliant host and a great guest. Thank you very much for joining us on the Rest Is History. It's been a huge pleasure to have you. We've been looking forward to it for a long time and it's lived up to our expectations.
- [45:23]
Laurie
The pleasure's been all mine, gentlemen. Thank you so much.
- [45:25]
Dominic
Thank you, Ronan. And goodbye.
- [45:26]
Laurie
Goodbye. Goodbye.
- [45:27]
Dominic Sandbrook
Goodbye. Hi, everybody. You're still here right at the end of the episode. I'm very impressed by your commitment, but listen, I have a question for you. I want to ask you something in confidence do you sometimes listen to the adverts on these episodes? And do you sometimes think, do you know what I wish that the listeners to this podcast, I wish they were listening to an advert about my brand rather than the other stuff that Tom and Dominic are promoting on here. If you have thought that there is of course only one way to find out what that would be like, you can disrupt the procession of adverts. You could be the next HSBC Premier or the many other tremendous companies that have advertised on the Rest Is History. And you could put your brand in front of millions of like minded listeners by advertising on the Rest Is History and indeed the other shows on the Goal Hanger Network. Now you may be thinking, I don't know what the Goal Hanger Network is. Gohanger are the company behind this very show. And if you are in the market to increase the value of your brand, Goal Hanger would love to hear from you. You can register your interest, or indeed your company's interest by going to goalhanger.com right now. And that is goal. G-O-A L hanger H-A N G E R dot com.