Loading summary
Transcript156 lines
- [00:00]
Tom Holland
Thank you for listening to the Rest is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series and membership of our much loved chat community, go to thereestishory.com and join the club that is.
- [00:14]
Dominic Sandbrook
Thereestishistory.Com this podcast is brought to you by Carvana Got a car to sell, but no time to waste? Hop onto Carvana.com to get a real offer for your car in seconds. All you have to do is enter your license plate, answer a few quick questions and if you accept the offer, Carvana will pay you as soon as you hand the keys over. They even offer same day pickup in many cities. Save your time, score some cash and sell your car the convenient way to Carvana pick up. Times vary. Fees may apply. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Buying a car shouldn't eat up your week. That's why Carvana made it convenient. Car buying that fits around your life, not the other way around. You can get pre qualified for an auto loan in just a couple of minutes and browse thousands of quality car options, all within your terms, all online, all on your schedule. Turn car buying into a few clicks and not a full week's endeavor. Finance and buy your car at your convenience on Carvana Financing, subject to credit approval. Additional terms and conditions may apply.
- [01:17]
Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords and a VPN, you you try to be in control of how your info is protected, but many other places also have it and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off. Terms apply.
- [01:58]
Tom Holland
She held the crucifix high, visible all down the long hall as she flung defiance at her judges, and her voice rose with a kind of triumph above the voice of the Dean of Peterborough, always higher and clearer than his rising tones, arching over the vehement English prayers, the mysterious, dominating invocations of the ancient faith. The Queen's voice held on for a minute after the clergyman had finished. Her words were in English now. She was praying for the people of England and for the soul of her royal cousin Elizabeth. She was forgiving all her enemies then, for a moment her ladies were busy about her. The black velvet gown fell below her knees, revealing underbodice and petticoat of crimson silk, and she stepped forward suddenly, shockingly, in the colour of martyrdom blood red from top to toe against the sombre background. Quietly she knelt and bowed herself low over the little chopping block in Manus tuas Domine. And they heard twice the dull chunk of the axe. There was one more ceremony to accomplish. The executioner must exhibit the head and speak the customary words. The masked black figure stooped and rose, crying in a loud voice, long live the Queen. But all he held in his hand that had belonged to the rival Queen of Hearts was a kerchief. And pinned to it, an elaborate auburn wig rolled nearer the edge of the platform, shrunken and withered and grey, with a sparse silver stubble. On the small, shiny skull was the head of the martyr. Mary Stuart had always known how to embarrass her enemies. So that was the American historian Garrett Mattingly in 1950, and he was writing about the execution of Mary Stuart, Mary Queen of Scots of Fotheringay Castle, on 8th February, 1587. Tom Holland. It is one of the most dramatic, one of the most celebrated moments in British history. Iconic because Mary is a bit of an icon, isn't she? She's a fashion icon.
- [04:14]
Guest Speaker
She is.
- [04:15]
Tom Holland
She's famously beautiful and stylish and well dressed and all of these kinds of things.
- [04:19]
Guest Speaker
And also loads of history about men.
- [04:20]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [04:21]
Guest Speaker
But now we're absolutely hitting the jackpot. So I would say Mary Queen of Scots is probably the most celebrated Scot who's ever lived. And she's celebrated because she is a byword for glamour and romance and tragedy, which seems to be what people like in Scottish history. So I guess Bonnie Prince Charlie would perhaps be her only rival, who's also glamorous, romantic and tragic. The story of Mary Queen of Scots is extraordinary. So she becomes the Queen of Scots when she's only one week old. She then goes to France, and as a teenager, she briefly rules as Queen of France. And then when she's 19, she comes back to Scotland, a country that she barely remembers, and she has this incredibly convulsive and ultimately calamitous reign, which is marked by plots and rebellions and disastrous marriages and two very notorious murders. And as a result, mystery and controversy completely shadows her. So there are all kinds of questions that people are always debating. Was she an adulteress? Was she a murderous? Was she a victim of rape? And she's a very polarizing figure and she always has been. So to her admirers, of whom there are lots, yep, she's the archetype of heroine, brought low by duplicitous and brutal men. So she was a figure of romance and now a kind of feminist heroine.
- [05:55]
Tom Holland
But there are lots of people who think she's a complete waste of space, useless, a traitor, conniving and inept at conniving. So that's even worse than conniving, right?
- [06:03]
Guest Speaker
Yeah. I mean, she ends up deposed. You know, that's pretty much the marker of being a failure as a ruler. And back in the 16th century, the justification for this was precisely that she was a Jezebel, that she was a kind of monstrous archetype of everything that made women rulers a terrible idea. And today there are absolutely historians who will say that she's one of the most calamitous rulers in Scottish history and the doyen of these historians who condemn her as a disastrous queen who is herself Scottish. Jenny Wormald wrote a brilliant, groundbreaking book on Mary, Queen of Scots, and she condemned her as a monarch of little wit and no judgment, a woman who absolutely brought about her own downfall. And so, Dominic, we will be sifting the evidence for this today and over the next five episodes of this series, and lots to discuss, but important to emphasize. You were worried that this was maybe an overly Scottish theme?
- [07:01]
Tom Holland
I wouldn't say worried. I would say excited.
- [07:03]
Guest Speaker
You would be relieved to know that this isn't just a Scottish story. There's quite a lot of England in it as well. And I guess that that's evident from the account of the execution that you read, which we open this episode with, because Fotheringay, of course, where she ends up being beheaded is in England. I mean, it's in Middle England, it's in Northamptonshire. But what that passage also alluded to is the sense in which, in death, as throughout her adult life, Mary Queen of Scots is shadowed by a rival queen, and this queen is her own cousin. In fact, it's the woman who had agreed to her death. And that, of course, is Elizabeth Tudor. Elizabeth I.
- [07:46]
Tom Holland
Yes. So Mary was the Queen of Scots, Tom. Elizabeth was the Queen of England. Mary was a Catholic, Elizabeth was a Protestant. And Mary, of course, was married three times. But Elizabeth was the Virgin Queen, married to her people and to her country. And here's the thing. We always think of them as the sort of supreme arch rivals, but they never actually met. They never even were in the same building at the same time. No.
- [08:09]
Guest Speaker
And I think that people ever since have felt that this was a slightly wasted opportunity and that in so many fictional treatments of Mary, Queen of Scots, she's always meeting up with Elizabeth I. So there was Schiller in Germany, wrote a famous Play about it. Donizetti wrote an opera again where Mary and Elizabeth meet up. And I suppose the most recent Example is the 2018 film starring Sasha Ronan as Mary, Queen of Scots. And actually, I have next to me, and I will hold it up for the benefit of those on YouTube. It's this Titanic definitive biography of Mary by John Guy, which came out about 20 years ago and it's been retitled for the purposes of the film. And on the COVID you get Saoirse Ronan as Mary, Queen of Scots, but you also get Margot Robbie as Elizabeth I. And the subtitle is Two Queens, One Future.
- [08:56]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [08:57]
Guest Speaker
So that sense that to write about Mary immediately means that you have to write about Elizabeth is really, really powerful and part of the story that we'll be telling.
- [09:05]
Tom Holland
But it's not just an English or Scottish story, it's also a European story. Right. Because as you've pointed out, the book that we read from in the beginning, the Garrett Mattingly book, is actually a book about the defeat of the Spanish Armada. So Spain and France are involved in this story too.
- [09:18]
Guest Speaker
Yeah. So actually, that account that you read, it's the first chapter in Mattingly's account of the Spanish Armada. He frames it as the key event that results in Philip I of Spain launching his doomed attempt to conquer England the following year in 1588. And that reflects the fact that throughout her life, Mary was a figure of absolutely European significance, and not just for Spain, but even more for France. So although she was the Queen of Scots, actually, I think the kingdom that she loved best, the place probably where she felt most at home, was France. So, like, actually very like Theo. Her father was Scottish, but her mother was French. And she goes to Theo, just briefly flashed in and out there. She goes to France when she's very young, she gets educated there, she grows up there. That's where she first marries and becomes a queen. And I think there's a sense in which, all through her subsequent life, she's a little bit homesick for it. And so perhaps the great irony of her reign and the key to understanding her ultimate tragedy is that the preference of this most famous of all Scots wasn't actually for Scotland at all. Her heart was probably French.
- [10:31]
Tom Holland
Enough preamble. Let's get right into the story. So she is born in Linlithgow, west of Edinburgh, one of the great palaces of Scotland, on the 8th of December, 1542. So set the scene for us a little bit, Tom.
- [10:46]
Guest Speaker
It's perishingly cold, even by the standards of Scotland, in winter. So The Tweed, which is the fast flowing river river on which I have my Scottish estate and which marked the frontier between Scotland and England, had completely frozen over, which anyone who knows the Tweed, I mean, it's an extraordinary thing, but despite these perishing conditions, it hasn't stopped the Scots and the English from fighting one another, which for generations after generation, they're always at it. And this is why Mary's father, who is James V, he's 30 years old, he's the King of Scotland. That's why he's not present at Linlithgow for her birth. And the reason for this is that two weeks earlier he'd been fighting the English on the western border of Scotland and he had suffered a humiliating defeat. Solway Moss in Cumberland in England. He'd managed to escape the battlefield, he'd ridden back, he'd stopped by at Linlithgow where his wife had been entering her confinement. But he hadn't stayed there, basically, I think, because he was kind of too depressed and miserable at his defeat. He felt he had lots to organise, so he went to Edinburgh. In Edinburgh, he felt, oh, I'm just too depressed. And so he went on to a hunting lodge at Falkland and basically he seems to have gone there to commune with his sense of failure, I think. And he basically goes to bed, he's very depressed. He's also pox ridden.
- [12:06]
Tom Holland
Okay.
- [12:06]
Guest Speaker
He's a great one for the ladies and is absolutely ridden with syphilis. And while he's in bed, he has brought the news that his wife has given birth and it's a daughter. And this plunges him even deeper into misery.
- [12:18]
Tom Holland
Yeah, gutting.
- [12:19]
Guest Speaker
Well, over the course of his life, as we will see, he's fathered a lot of bastard sons, but he has no legitimate male heir and he'd really been hoping for that. So having a daughter is a huge disappointment to him. Meanwhile, back in Lithgow, the newborn daughter and her mother are doing very well. And this is because a Scottish palace in the mid 16th century is actually an incredibly civilized place to be.
- [12:44]
Tom Holland
Really?
- [12:45]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, it's great. It's hung with magnificent tapestries to, you know, serve, provide insulation. It's got the cutting edge glazed windows, you know, tremendous glaziers on hand. It's very, very sophisticated. And in the opinion of Mary's mother, the palace at Linlithgow is the equal of any chateau to be found in France. She would know absolutely, Dominic, because she herself is French.
- [13:10]
Tom Holland
So she's Mary of Guise, she's from a noble family in France. Right. And she's famously beautiful and smart, cunning, all of these kinds of things. And I mean, no son. I mean, we're in the same century as Henry VIII and all his carry on. So no son is, you know, always a bad thing. But on the other hand, at least James has an heir of a kind.
- [13:31]
Guest Speaker
And you say she's of a noble family. I mean, the Guise are the most influential and domineering noble family in France. And as we will see, they have essentially their eyes on the throne. So she's a very formidable person in her own right. And her marriage to James V, the King of Scotland, it bears witness to what for generations and generations has been the foundation stone of Scotland's foreign policy, which is known by the Scots as the old Alliance. A, U, L, D. So the Scots spelling, and it is underpinned, I'm afraid to say, by a visceral hostility to.
- [14:06]
Tom Holland
England, which makes complete sense. I mean, strategically, England is the adversary for both countries. The English had fought the French in the Hundred Years War, memories of which are still around, obviously, in the 16th century. The Scots, so their memories are of their wars of independence, which were 300 years earlier, Robert the Bruce, all of that kind of thing.
- [14:25]
Guest Speaker
Yeah.
- [14:26]
Tom Holland
And actually, both of these had been English defeats, hadn't they?
- [14:30]
Guest Speaker
They had, yeah. The English defeat in the Scottish wars of independence had been much more humiliating for the English than their defeat in the Hundred Years, basically because Scotland is to England what England is to France, namely, less rich, less powerful, fewer reserves of manpower. And this is as true in the time of Mary Queen of Scots as it had been back in the time of Robert Bruce. So the population of England is about three and a half million.
- [14:57]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [14:57]
Guest Speaker
And Scotland's is well under one million. The only sizable town in Scotland at this time is Edinburgh. Even then, I mean, it's. It's only just under 10,000. So London, by way of comparison, is over 60,000. And its entire machinery of government is much less centralized than you get in England or France. And so therefore, it's harder to raise and sustain armies in the field.
- [15:22]
Tom Holland
Right.
- [15:22]
Guest Speaker
And the corollary of that is that generally, provided the English aren't distracted by kind of wars in France, they can pretty much be relied upon to defeat the Scots in battle, as they have.
- [15:34]
Tom Holland
Done in recent years. Right. So the 16th century has been pretty good for England in this regard. You mentioned Solway Moss, but they also famously won the Battle of Flodden.
- [15:42]
Guest Speaker
Yeah.
- [15:42]
Tom Holland
1513. A lot of business with pike men running down into bogs and things. And Mary's grandfather was killed at Flodden, wasn't he? James iv. And a lot of the English people said that he'd been killed by his own side, which is poor from the Scots.
- [15:56]
Guest Speaker
Well, I think not just English people. That Scots thought that too.
- [15:59]
Tom Holland
Right.
- [16:00]
Guest Speaker
It's unclear, but these rumors certainly play into a kind of opinion that it's very common in England and indeed France, that Scottish affairs are exceptionally brutal and murderous, and that the nobility in Scotland are kind of very, very thuggish and dangerous.
- [16:19]
Tom Holland
Do you think that's true?
- [16:21]
Guest Speaker
Well, we'll see. Mary certainly grows up to think it's true. In due course, she would say of the Scots, that they are, as is known, a people as factious amongst themselves and as factious towards their ruler as any other nation in Europe. And I guess that, you know, she could look back at her forebears, those who had sat on the throne before her, and found plenty of evidence to support this. So Mary is a steward. The name Stuart derives from the position held by one of her ancestors who'd been the High Steward of Scotland. And he had then married the daughter of Robert Bruce, a woman called Marjorie, which I think is an improbable name for Scottish Queen, and thereby founded the Stuart dynasty. And it's true that very few of the Stuart kings kind of die in their beds. So there are lots who die in battle against the English. But there's another who gets assassinated while being pursued down a sewer, another gets killed in battle fighting his own son. And actually, the son who kills his own father is the guy who goes on to become James iv, the one who dies at Flodden. So I think there is a general sense that to be a Scottish monarch is a dangerous thing. And this, I think, is why James is particularly depressed, that the. The news that he's been given a daughter rather than a son, because he's. He's worried that to have a woman on the throne will, by its very nature, be threatening, not just for Scotland, but more specifically for his own line, his own regime.
- [17:57]
Tom Holland
He has this brilliant line, doesn't he? The devil go with it. It will end as it began. It came from a woman and it will end in a woman. What's all that about?
- [18:06]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of paraphrased. It came with a lass and it will pass with a lass. So, in other words, the Stuarts inherited the throne via Marjorie, the daughter of Robert Bruce, and with Mary Stuart, it will finish. And so he's very depressed. He gets worse and worse and then he dies. And we're told by someone who records the details that he died amid marvellous vomit. So. Ooh, yeah, horrid. And so this is one week after Mary has been born and so she's now the Queen of Scotland and she is one week old.
- [18:37]
Tom Holland
Right.
- [18:37]
Guest Speaker
And obviously if the stereotypes which very strongly held by foreigners, but also it would seem by James V himself, if the stereotypes of Scottish savage and backwardness are true, then you would think that the Stuarts are doomed, you know, a one week old baby girl on the throne. It doesn't look promising. And even more threatening is the fact that there are a couple of noblemen on the scene who themselves have a possible claim to the throne and who, even more threateningly for Scotland, absolutely detest each other.
- [19:12]
Tom Holland
Okay.
- [19:12]
Guest Speaker
Everybody basically is called James. So one of these is James Hamilton and he is the Earl of Arran and he is the grandson of the daughter of James ii. So that's going quite a few generations back. But he is now the heir apparent. So if Mary dies, he gets the throne.
- [19:30]
Tom Holland
Right.
- [19:31]
Guest Speaker
He's very scheming, but he's also very slippery and very, very inconstant. And Mary of Guise, Mary Queen of Scots mother, despises him and she says of him that he was a simple and the most inconstant man in the world. For whatever he determineth today, he changeth tomorrow, so you can't pin him down.
- [19:50]
Tom Holland
Okay.
- [19:51]
Guest Speaker
And the other bloke, so he is called Matthew, Matthew Stewart and he's the Earl of Lennox and like the Earl of Arran, he's a grandson of James II's daughter. But he stands behind Arryn in the ranking because his claim derives from a female rather than a male line. So the inherent sexism of the Scottish laws of inheritance.
- [20:10]
Tom Holland
Right, yeah.
- [20:11]
Guest Speaker
And he is in exile in France at this time when Mary is born, but he's obviously itching to return. And he's described by one at Myra as having been a strong man of personage, well proportioned in all his members. So that's nice.
- [20:23]
Tom Holland
In all his members. That's nice.
- [20:26]
Guest Speaker
Potentially a very impressive figure.
- [20:28]
Tom Holland
Right, so in a sane world, one of these men would have got the baby, taken her to some equivalent of the Tower of London, Scottish equivalent, some shack in Scotland, and smothered or otherwise dealt with her princess in the tower style. Bang. Job done. Let's get on and have a nice stable government for a happier Scotland. But no foolish from the Scots.
- [20:49]
Guest Speaker
They could have done it and they would have been right to do it, I guess, would be definitely your take on it, but actually this doesn't happen at all. And this is because, actually, Scotland is much more politically stable, I think, than the negative perspective abroad allowed. And the measure of this is that since 1437, so that's more than a century before Mary's birth, four kings in succession had come to the Scottish throne as children, and all of them had survived their minority and all of them had grown up to become very powerful and intimidating rulers. And the reason for this is that actually the Scottish monarchy has a number of advantages that aren't immediately apparent, I think, to, you know, sneerers in London or Paris. And one of these advantages is that actually the aristocracy are not as feral as, say, the English aristocracy had shown themselves to be in the 15th century when England had collapsed into the wars of the Roses. And as you mentioned, the Princeton Tower end up being murdered. There's no equivalent of that in Scotland. And Jenny Wormald, who we mentioned, the great historian of late medieval and 16th century Scotland, who's very down on Mary, Queen of Scots, she's brilliant on this kind of quality of essential stability that Scotland has. And she writes, the evidence is that the magnates infinitely preferred strong royal rule to lack of it. So they're not looking to overthrow kings, essentially. They want a king to grow up and provide authoritative rule because that's better for Scotland.
- [22:30]
Tom Holland
Yeah. And they're doing that partly because they're frightened of the English or they're not frightened of the English.
- [22:34]
Guest Speaker
I think they are constantly aware of the English threat on their southern border. They're well aware that in pitch battle, the English are probably going to win, but they're also aware that as long as there is a strong stable state in Scotland, the English will never be able to conquer Scotland. The Highlands in particular are effectively impregnable. You know, it's not just the English who failed to conquer Scotland. The Romans had failed earlier. It's just Scotland is a very, very difficult country to subdue. And so as a result, the English are kind of like a tide. They're constantly flowing in, but they're almost bound to flow back out again. And this is why ever since Edward I had tried to conquer Scotland and Edward II had then been defeated at Bannockburn, it's just a relentless sequence of wars and squabbles that are never resolved. The Scots can't stop the English attacking, but the English can't subdue the Scots. And so you just have this kind of three centuries long stalemate. One of the reasons that the Scots are able to See the English off. Is that actually in kind of geopolitical terms, they're quite well set. So if you think of France, France has the English to deal with, but they've also got the Spanish. They've got problems on, you know, the Italian frontier.
- [23:49]
Tom Holland
Been fighting in Italy.
- [23:50]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, yeah, they've got Italy, they've got the Low Countries, they've got problems potentially along the Rhine. So they have enemies on almost every corner. The English are sandwiched between France and Scotland. So whenever the English go and attack France, as Shakespeare puts it, the weasel Scott darts out down into northern England. The Scots only have the one natural enemy and that's England. And this is one of the reasons why it doesn't actually need the centralized bureaucracy that had developed in England and France, say over the course of the Hundred Years War. They don't need excessive amounts of money or men because the only sphere where they're going to be fighting is that very narrow border that constitutes the line between England and France. And so such taxes as they raise, the Stuarts can blow it on fancy ships or guns. And they love a fancy ship, they love a massive cannon, but they can still have enough to then spend it on building glorious palaces like at Linlithgow. This is why you have the, you know, the wonderful glazing and the, the tapestries and stuff. It's because the Scottish monarchy has money to spare, basically. James V is a great builder of kind of the Scottish equivalent of chateau. He can enjoy French style interior decoration, but massively on the cheap. And because of this, the Scots themselves do not feel that they're peripheral barbarians.
- [25:20]
Tom Holland
Right.
- [25:20]
Guest Speaker
And the Scots monarchs certainly don't think that. They don't see themselves as being remote or isolated or backwards. They see themselves absolutely as being the peers of the King of England or the King of France. And so that's why I think, although it's not optimal to have a one week old baby girl on the throne, it doesn't doom Mary and it doesn't mean that Scotland is doomed to fall to pieces.
- [25:44]
Tom Holland
Well, let's find out because you know, Tom, that's very optimistic. Are we looking for a golden age of Scottish history? Is Mary, Queen of Scots life gonna be all sweetness and light? Find out after the break. Welcome back to the Rest Is History. Now, if you're not a member of the Rest is History club, I know what you've been doing. You've been listening to the adverts. More fool you. You should join the club and you won't have to listen to them. But While you've been listening to the adverts, extraordinary scenes, nine months have passed and Mary has just been crowned in Stirling Castle. A slightly bad omen here, Tom, because she was crowned on the anniversary of the Battle of flodden.
- [26:25]
Guest Speaker
Yeah. So the 9th of September 1543, 29 years after the Battle of Flodden.
- [26:30]
Tom Holland
So, big disaster in Scottish history. What on earth have they chosen that date?
- [26:33]
Guest Speaker
Well, it will be seen by Mary's enemies as a bad omen, but I think you could just as easily see it as a mark of Scottish insouciance. They've already got over Flodden. Forget it, you know. Yeah, who cares? As you said, she's crowned in Stirling Castle, which has always been viewed as the key to Scotland. Bannockburn is kind of fought in its shadow. It guards the lowest crossing point on the River Forth and it's pretty much impregnable. So that is one of the reasons why Mary is there. The crown has to be held over the baby queen's head because obviously it would crush her if it was laid on top of her.
- [27:07]
Tom Holland
Right.
- [27:08]
Guest Speaker
And Mary cries and balls and sobs the whole way through the ceremony, which, again, bad omen people might see as an omen. But you know very clearly, if she's being crowned, she hasn't been murdered. No coronation is going ahead. The country hasn't collapsed into civil war. And great news. The earls of Arryn and Lennox. So the two men who we mentioned in the first half, who both have claims to be her successor, they've been there.
- [27:34]
Tom Holland
So the first one, massive snake.
- [27:36]
Guest Speaker
Yeah. Always changing his mind.
- [27:38]
Tom Holland
The other Blake, good members, well proportioned members.
- [27:41]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So Aaron has. Has carried the crown in the coronation procession. Lennox has carried the scepter. If you throw in the sword of state as well, these constitute the honours of Scotland, as they're called. And you can see them to this day in Edinburgh Castle. Attentive listeners may remember that Lennox had been in exile in France. So obviously, if he's there in Stirling, he's negotiated his return, so it's good for him. But it's Arryn, probably at this point, who is ahead because he has won the backing of Scotland's parliament to serve both as regent and to be nominated as Mary's official heir.
- [28:20]
Tom Holland
So, yeah, watch out for him.
- [28:23]
Guest Speaker
If he had a Richard III vibe, we know what would happen.
- [28:26]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [28:26]
Guest Speaker
But we will see, in one sense, there's a kind of surprising degree of political stability. These two earls are kind of, you know, they're eyeballing each other, but they're not trying to kill Mary, they're not in open opposition to one another. But the state of Scotland is unsettled. Even so. And this is due not so much to the rivalry between Arryn and Lennox, but to a much more formidable and enduring rivalry, which is that between France and England.
- [28:56]
Tom Holland
So both of those kingdoms, they've obviously heard the news, there's this infant girl and they're both thinking, oh, you know, there's opportunity here. Now, you would think, wouldn't you, that the French would be the people who would do a deal with Scotland because of the old alliance and all that kind of thing. And the English are kind of the, you know, they're the old enemy and all of that stuff. And it's a little bit more complicated, isn't it? So the English are actually at war with Scotland at this point, technically, is that right?
- [29:22]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, you know, I mean, Mary's father died of a broken heart after being defeated by them.
- [29:27]
Tom Holland
Right.
- [29:27]
Guest Speaker
And of course, also Mary is under the wing of her mother, Mary of Guise, who's very much a French woman.
- [29:33]
Tom Holland
So why is this even an issue? Why the English, even in play, is a possible ally doesn't make sense.
- [29:39]
Guest Speaker
Because over the decade before Mary is born, something very kind of novel, unexpected, and I think for relations between Scotland, England and France, very destabilising has begun to emerge, which is a pro English faction in Scotland. Absolute scenes, I mean, unheard of. So people may wonder how on earth is it that a pro English faction has grown up in Scotland? And the answer to that is that the storm clouds of the Reformation have been massing not just over Europe, but over Scotland, because just as has been happening in England, at the same time, the country is being shaken by the emergence of a novel and very fast growing heresy in Germany. So we did five episodes on this. The Life of Martin Luther. Yeah, kind of the father of the Reformation. And his writings had been detected in Scotland as early as 1524. So that's, you know, only a few years after he nailed up his theses in Wittenberg. And then three years later. So in 1527, there is a report from a concerned Catholic that Luther's writings are circulating widely in Edinburgh and St Andrews. And then the following year, in 1528, you get the first martyrdom of a Protestant. And this is a former Catholic priest called Patrick Hamilton, and he's burnt at the stake in St Andrews, which is one of Scotland's three universities at this point, and the oldest and most prestigious. So this is all going on, but.
- [31:18]
Tom Holland
Surely There's a huge thing, it's not just coming from Germany or from Flanders or other places the tracks are coming from. But the fact that England has been embroiled in the Reformation because of Henry VIII's marital issues presumably has a massive knock on effect on Scotland because now all sorts of tracts and ideas can arrive across the very porous Anglo Scottish border.
- [31:38]
Guest Speaker
Yeah. And of course they're written in a form of English, so Scots, which is pretty different from the kind of English that is being written by Protestant reformers in London or Cambridge or whatever. But I mean, it's much easier for Scots to read than say German. And so these pamphlets have an outsized effect on Scottish opinion, as you said. And of course, as you also said, there is the outsized figure of Henry vii. And by this point, I mean, he really is outsized. He's, he's very much a person of bulk.
- [32:07]
Tom Holland
Yeah, he's got that massive ulcer.
- [32:09]
Guest Speaker
Yes. All those injections up his ass and stuff. I mean it's all, it's all happening. So his kind of beady, piggy little eyes have lit up at the prospect that the spread of Protestantism in Scotland offers him to make mischief. So actually, four months after Mary was born, he'd written to the Earl of Arran, the slippery guy who's become the regent, and he proposes a raft of Protestant style reforms. So he says that the Scots should have the Bible freely available in their own language. That tracks opposed to the English Reformation should be cracked down on. So that's kind of pro Catholic ones. And also he tells the Earl of Arran, you know, get on and dissolve the monasteries. It's absolutely brilliant. And he very overtly frames this not as being justified by, you know, the true religion of Protestantism or whatever, but to say it's brilliant. You'll make so much money, look how much cash I've got. It's great.
- [33:04]
Tom Holland
Tommy, you can fat shame Henry VIII as much as you like, but those are all actually quite good ideas. The Scots would have done well to profit from them anyway.
- [33:11]
Guest Speaker
You're right, because the Earl of Arryn, who is actually quite a devout Catholic, I mean, he's pretty tempted by this. Henry in his own way is Catholic as well.
- [33:18]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [33:18]
Guest Speaker
There's a kind of streak of opportunism there that I think is as evident in the higher reaches of Scotland as in England. And there's a further aspect of Scottish affairs that Henry finds tempting, which is that having a girl as a queen means that she's obviously going to have to be married off. And Henry's heir is a young boy, you know, the male heir that he'd done so much to try and secure. And this boy Edward, he's going to need a wife. So Henry says to Aaron, why don't we match them up? It would be brilliant. And so in July 1543, Henry and the Earl of Arryn duly sign a treaty in Greenwich, just down the Thames from London. And its provisions from the point of view of Henry VIII are brilliant. So Mary's going to be brought up with English speaking attendance, so not Scots speaking attendance. She'll grow up, you know, with a nice received pronunciation accent.
- [34:17]
Tom Holland
Okay.
- [34:18]
Guest Speaker
Then at the age of 10, she'll marry Prince Edward. Their children will rule a united kingdom of Great Britain. Arran will commit to pursuing essentially Protestant policies. So all of these are wins for Henry and England. The only concession that Henry grants to the Scots is that Mary's kingdom will continue to be called Scotland and retain its ancient laws and liberties.
- [34:44]
Tom Holland
It'll be a bit of a dual monarchy, I guess.
- [34:47]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, that's the plan.
- [34:48]
Tom Holland
Like an Austro Hungarian empire. So there's a massive road not taken. What a historical. What if that is? Because if that had happened, the story of the 17th century and thereafter would have been completely different. Why does it not happen when they've done this deal in Greenwich?
- [35:01]
Guest Speaker
Because Aaron finds it impossible to take the rest of the country with him. Most people in Scotland do not want to end up as they would see it, subordinated to England, even the Protestants. And at this point, most people in Scotland are still very much Catholic, so it's just impossible. But more than that, he has a very, very effective opponent in Scotland in the form of Mary of Guise, the French mother of Mary Queen of Scots, who is absolutely determined not to let her daughter become a kind of an English queen. And so this is one of the reasons why she's removed Mary to Stirling Castle, which is effectively impregnable. It had been a personal gift from James V to Mary of Guise, so it's her own personal stronghold. This means that Arryn cannot get his hands on the infant queen. I mean, if he had been able to, then maybe history would have been different. If Mary had been kind of packed off to London, I mean, who knows what would have happened? But Mary of Guise has her daughter and Stirling is not going to be captured. More than that, of course, Mary of Guise is very effective at playing, you know, the rival would be strong men of Scotland. So as well as Arryn, there is Lennox. She drops subtle hints to Lennox that perhaps, you know, she might be interested in marrying him. You know, this would be great for Lennox, solidify his claim to the throne. And at the same time, Mary of Guise, very kind of cunning and clever, she's also giving a kind of little hint of her ankle to another of Scotland's most powerful noblemen. There's a guy called Patrick Hepburn and he is the Earl of Bothwell and he's a very big player. So he, by hereditary right is the Lord Admiral of Scotland and he's the Sheriff of Edinburgh. So to control both the fleet and the capital, I mean, that's quite something. And his castle is, I mean, I think, probably the most sinister, brooding and atmospheric castle in the whole of Britain. And it's called the Hermitage. It's right on the borders of England and Scotland and it's in what at the time was the most dangerous area in the whole of Britain. It was called the Debatable Lands, was kind of given over to bandits called reavers. And I don't know if you've ever been to it, Dominic. It's like something out of Game of Thrones. We say that about so much that we talk about, but it really is, if you imagine the kind of terrifying place you would not want to end up. This is the castle, the hermitage. And so unsurprisingly with all these attributes, the Earl of Bothwell, he doesn't suffer from self esteem issues. So Henry VIII's ambassador to Scotland described him as the most vain and insolent man in the world, full of pride and folly. Poor old Arryn, he's up against Lennox, he's up against the Earl of Bothwell and he's up against Mary of Guise. And basically he finds himself with no option but to reverse Ferret. So, you know, he's very changeable. Whatever he determineth today, he changeth tomorrow, as Mary of Guise had said of him. And so having signed this treaty with Henry viii, he gets back to Scotland, discovers nobody's in favor of it and so he completely rips it up. He abandons the English alliance, he stops pretending to be Protestant and he submits to attending Mary's coronation alongside Lennox and Mary of Guise. So that's what he's doing, holding the crown over Mary. And this is obviously very, very humiliating for him, but it's also humiliating for Henry VIII in England.
- [38:26]
Tom Holland
Right, and Henry viii, so Mary Guise is delighted, but Henry VIII is absolutely furious, isn't he? And actually livid. Yeah, he demands vengeance. So what are we? 1544, April 1544, he tells one of the Seymour's, so Jane Seymour's brother Edward, and he basically says, get into Scotland, put all to fire and sword burn Edinburgh town so raised and defaced when you've sacked and gotten what you can of it, as there may remain forever a perpetual memory of the vengeance of God for their falsehood and disloyalty, put all the men and women and children to the sword, do all this, do all that, destroy the villages like he's not messing around. No.
- [39:05]
Guest Speaker
So Seymour leads a massive English army into Scotland and what follows is the most brutal war of destruction that the English have ever waged in Scotland. And obviously there have been quite a few brutal wars of destruction and it goes on for eight years. It outlasts Henry VIII himself and it was memorably termed by Sir Walter Scott in the early 19th century as the rough wooing. Right, so basically there's this idea that you go, you know, you go and destroy everything in your path and this is somehow supposed to persuade the Scots to give Mary Queen of Scots to Prince Edward in, in London. And so on one level this is obviously self defeating because it only confirms the majority of Scots in their kind of ancestral loathing for the English and also of course, playing into Mary of Guise's hands, really, it only confirms them in their view of France as their natural kind of essential ally. But having said that, I think the most striking thing about the rough wooing, this kind of brutal English campaign against the Scots, isn't that it kind of gives fresh impetus to the kind of traditional Scottish Anglophobia. But what's most amazing, what's most unexpected, is that actually not everyone in Scotland is alienated by it. And the reason for that is that there's now a constituency of support for the English as co religionists, as fellow Protestants, that actually can survive all the kind of the bloodshed and the slaughter and the ruin and the burning that the English are now inflicting on Scotland. That the Reformation has got a sufficient hold on Scottish opinion, that ties of religion are coming to seem to some Scots more important than the traditional hatred of the English.
- [41:00]
Tom Holland
But it's also surely that thing that always happens when you have a smaller country and a larger country. There's always going to be a faction who see the opportunities and allying themselves with the big overbearing neighbor. Just because of the internal dynamics of kind of core politics. There's always ins and outs. So if there are people who hate the English, there's always mileage to be had, surely in allying Yourself with a very powerful patron across the border. No, I mean.
- [41:24]
Guest Speaker
I mean, kind of. But essentially that would be seen by Scots in the. The centuries since the wars of Independence as treason.
- [41:30]
Tom Holland
Okay.
- [41:31]
Guest Speaker
You know, you would be a traitor for doing that. What has changed with the Reformation is that there are now Scots who can say, well, my conscience requires me to ally myself with, you know, fellow people who have cast off the Whore of Babylon. And that in turn does enable a kind of novel political faction to develop, which sees an alliance with England as something that is preferable to the traditional French alliance, because the French alliance doesn't come without strings either. France is even more of a preponderant power than England. And so it does mean that to a degree, the Scots are subordinated. And so there is now scope for kind of pro English and pro French factions actually to be a kind of genuine dynamic in Scottish politics. And that in turn means, you know, if you are a player in Scottish politics, you can kind of switch between them. And I guess the classic example of this is Lennox. Mary of Guise has been kind of saying, maybe I'll marry you. Whatever, maybe I will, maybe I won't. But she'd actually been playing him along. She's been playing the field. She's been winking at the Earl of Bothwell as well. And so Lennox realizes this, realizes that Mary of Guise has no intention of marrying him, and has a massive strop and openly turns pro English. He basically yells at Mary of Guise, says, you're terrible. You're an absolute slag. I'm off. Storms off to England. And when he's there, remember, he has a claim to the Scottish throne. He assigns this claim to the Scottish throne to the English king.
- [43:04]
Tom Holland
Oh, that's a big decision.
- [43:06]
Guest Speaker
It is a big decision. And he is very royally rewarded. So he's given extensive lands in Yorkshire in the north of England, but he's also given the hand of one of Henry VIII's nieces in marriage. And this is potentially, I mean, looking ahead, a very momentous development because it means that any children, and perhaps more specifically any sons he has, will not just have Stuart blood in his veins, but the blood of the Tudors as well. And so therefore, potentially a claim to the throne of. Of England as well as Scotland.
- [43:39]
Tom Holland
Right.
- [43:40]
Guest Speaker
All of this, of course. Well, in the future, if you're Mary.
- [43:44]
Tom Holland
Guise, presumably, you look at this and you think, oh, this is terrible. This is a very ominous development. Or does she not care? And she thinks it's fine.
- [43:51]
Guest Speaker
I know. I mean, she thinks Lennox is I mean, the kind of peripheral figure who cares.
- [43:55]
Tom Holland
Okay.
- [43:55]
Guest Speaker
She's got the rough wooing going on all around outside Stirling Castle. The castle is so secure that she can basically ride it out. So she sits in Stirling Castle with her daughter, Mary, Queen of Scots, even as the countryside is on fire. And the brilliant thing from her point of view is that the blame for the rough wooing does not fall on her, but on Arryn, who completely gets the blame for it. And she's able to take advantage of this to leverage her own position of authority within Scotland. So Arryn is forced to accept her presence alongside him in the Privy Council and in Parliament. And this now means that Mary of Guise doesn't have to operate in the traditional way that women do in Scotland. Kind of behind the scenes. She has her hands directly on the levers of power. And so she's therefore in pole position to push her dream policy, which is to marry her daughter directly into the French royal family. And this is obviously a great way of renewing the old alliance between Scotland and France and potentially subordinate Scotland permanently to French interests. But more than that, I mean, you know, she's a geese. She's part of this incredibly ambitious family in France. To marry her daughter into the royal family of France, I mean, that's brilliant. It would be to kill two birds with one stone. So, you know, she has everything to play for here.
- [45:18]
Tom Holland
And it works. Right, because in 1547, two things happen that play very much into her hands. And the first one is the death of the French king, Francois Premier, or Francis the First. So he was the great guy, massive nose.
- [45:32]
Guest Speaker
Yeah.
- [45:32]
Tom Holland
Always Wrestling. Henry VIII. He was Henry VIII's big rival, hanging.
- [45:36]
Guest Speaker
Out with Leonardo da Vinci, all of that.
- [45:37]
Tom Holland
Right. He's dead. And now his son Henri, or Henry, becomes Henry ii. And Henry's are big pals with the Guise family. His advisors are geezers.
- [45:47]
Guest Speaker
Tom, nice one.
- [45:49]
Tom Holland
Her brothers, actually, Mary of Guise's brothers, Francois and Charles. And because of that, basically she has a massive in with the new King of France.
- [45:56]
Guest Speaker
Yeah. So Francois, Charlotte's called Francis and Charles, we're very Anglophone. So Francis is a military man. He's going to become the Duke of Guise. He's the most brilliant military strategist in France. He's been playing a key part in France's wars in Italy that we talked about in the Medici episodes. And his brother Charles is the Cardinal of Lorraine and he's, you know, one of a long line of Maelan cardinals who are kind of brilliant behind the scenes operators, gifted ministers, you Know, so Richelieu and Mazarin, the next century, very much part of that tradition. And having these two guys, Francis and Charles, at the side of Henry ii, Mary of Guise now has a hotline directly to the King. But ironically, this is not the only thing that serves to secure a French royal marriage for the infant Queen of Scots. I say ironically because the key event is actually a really, really disastrous Scottish defeat. So the third great military defeat in Scottish history in the 16th century. But actually, what ironically serves to make the match between the infant Queen of Scots into the Royal French line. Absolutely. A banker. Is a disastrous Scottish military defeat. The third of the three great military debacles that Scotland suffers in the 16th century. And the context for this is again, the rough wooing. So you mentioned Edward Seymour, the brother of Jane Seymour, so the uncle of Henry's son Edward, who is now Edward VI, back in London, he's the Lord Protector for Edward VI. And in September 1547, he launches another massive invasion of Scotland. He advances on Edinburgh, and the Earl of Arryn has raised just about every man that he can to confront this onslaught. And he masses his forces on the hills above a small hamlet called Pinky, which is, I think, is a great name.
- [47:57]
Tom Holland
Yeah.
- [47:58]
Guest Speaker
And this is probably the largest Scottish army ever assembled. And an English observer, seeing it, is very intimidated. And he says that the spears of the Scots were as thick as the bristles of a hedgehog. And the result of this exceptional Scottish effort is utter defeat. Aaron runs away. He flees scant with honor, as the description has it, right. And behind him, he leaves 10,000 dead Scots on the battlefield. And Mary of Giz is so panicked by the news of this debacle that for the first time, she worries that Stirling Castle will not be able to hold out. And so she flees with her baby daughter westwards to a remote priory, the Priory of inch Mahome, some 80 miles west of of the battlefield of Pinky and set on an island in a lock. And just to give a taster of what is to come, this is not the first island in a lock that Mary Queen of Scots will find herself on.
- [48:54]
Tom Holland
How tantalizing.
- [48:55]
Guest Speaker
Something to look forward to.
- [48:57]
Tom Holland
What an exciting thought. So basically, because the Scots have had this massive day bark and they've shamed themselves on the battlefield, they now have to leap into bed with the French. They don't want to be subordinate to England. They have to be supported to anybody. They'd rather be with the French. And Henri, Henry ii, the King of France, thinks, brilliant, this is my chance I can now get in bed with the Scots and probably marry this girl.
- [49:19]
Guest Speaker
Yeah. And he acts very, very rapidly because the situation is actually quite dangerous, because should the English get hold of Mary, Queen of Scots, it's game over for everybody. So what Henry does is he sends a massive expeditionary force. It lands in Leith. So the port that serves Edinburgh in June 1458, 130 ships, kind of 5500 infantry, a thousand cavalry, and they kind of basically roll the English back. The English are forced back towards Berwick. The French have a meeting with the Earl of Arran at a nunnery in a small town called Haddington, which is about 20 miles east of Edinburgh. And here they sign a treaty and it's agreed that the Earl of Arran will become a Duke of France, so he becomes the Duke of Chatel Herau. And it is also agreed, more significantly, that Mary Queen of Scots, who at this point is still only five and a half, will marry the eldest son of Henry ii, the Dauphin, Francis.
- [50:17]
Tom Holland
Right.
- [50:18]
Guest Speaker
And so as a result of this, the Queen of Scots is destined to become the Queen as well of France. And she is shipped off to France very, very rapidly. So the next month, 29 July, she boards the ship that will take her to France. She leaves the great fortress of Dumbarton on the Clyde, and the ship she boards is the royal galley, the galley of the King of France himself that the King has sent to Scotland. This particular mark of honor to Mary. And her escort is the fleet that had sailed to Leith and has now sailed round the northern coast of Scotland back down to the Clyde. And all the French crews are very impressed by the Queen of Scots. They find her very pretty, very charming, very poised. You know, she's an adorable little muppet, basically.
- [51:07]
Tom Holland
I mean, how, how poised can you be at five years old?
- [51:10]
Guest Speaker
Very, apparently.
- [51:12]
Tom Holland
I'm very skeptical of this, Tom. I think five year olds, by and large, are not poised.
- [51:16]
Guest Speaker
She is simultaneously poised and charming. And these are aspects of her character that will run throughout her life.
- [51:22]
Tom Holland
I know you love Mary, Queen of Scots.
- [51:23]
Guest Speaker
I absolutely do believe it.
- [51:25]
Tom Holland
You've drunk the iron brew, I think it's fair to say, Tom.
- [51:28]
Guest Speaker
Well, we will see. But just to say they're actually held up for a week because there are storms, I mean, storms in the Scottish summer, who's heard the like? But very impressively again, Dominic, Mary doesn't fall seasick.
- [51:39]
Tom Holland
Oh, amazing. How remarkable. All these French sailors used to life at sea do fall seasick, but this five year old girl doesn't. I absolutely believe you, it's not the.
- [51:48]
Guest Speaker
French sailors, it's her retainers and we know that because they wrote about it later in life. Anyway, so eventually they sail off and they, they're rounding Cornwall again, there's a massive storm. The rudder of the galley gets smashed.
- [51:59]
Tom Holland
She single handedly sails the ship to France.
- [52:02]
Guest Speaker
No, again, poise, I think is the word, not a sign of fear. Perfectly calm, incredibly admirable.
- [52:09]
Tom Holland
Well, I mean you've got, you've got a report here.
- [52:11]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, so. So they finally land, they make land on French soil on the 13th of August, 1548. And Dominic, you've been skeptical, but do you want to know what one of the command commanders of the French fleet said about her?
- [52:21]
Tom Holland
No, I don't. But you're going to read it anyway.
- [52:23]
Guest Speaker
I absolutely am because I think the listeners want to know. So this French commander said she, Mary, is one of the most perfect creatures that ever was seen. Such a one as from this very young age with its wondrous and estimable beginnings, has raised such expectations that it is not possible to hope for more from a princess on this earth. So I don't think you can argue with that.
- [52:47]
Tom Holland
Well, Elizabeth, I will have something to say about that, Tom. And if listeners want to find out how Mary measures up to these gushing previews, how she gets on in France, why she ends up going back to Scotland and all of the extraordinary melodramatic details of the rest of her life, the explosions, murders, all kinds of plots and conspiracies. Just an amazing, amazing story. So the next episode's coming in a couple of days, but, but you can get all five remaining episodes of this epic series by signing up to the Rest is history club@therealestishistory.com and on that Scottish bombshell, goodbye.
- [53:28]
Guest Speaker
Bye.
- [53:28]
Tom Holland
Bye.
- [53:39]
Guest Speaker
This episode is brought to you by. Indeed. Now, speed can be very, very important at.
- [53:46]
Tom Holland
Yeah, speed's massively important, Tom. The great inspiration for me is the Battle of Cape St. Vincent in 1797 when Horatio Nelson really made his name. He went out of the line to attack the Spanish. His ship got entangled with a Spanish ship. He jumped onto the Spanish ship and captured it. And then he realized they'd become entangled with a second Spanish ship and he leapt onto the next Spanish ship, captured that one as well. A tremendous example of quick thinking, saving the day.
- [54:11]
Guest Speaker
And if you're hiring, it's also important to act fast. And thankfully, indeed, sponsored jobs can help get things done. It moves your post to the top of the page so it can stand out to candidates. So speed up your hiring with Indeed. Get your jobs more visibility with a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com RestHistory that's Indeed.com RestHistory terms and conditions apply.
- [54:39]
Tom Holland
Hiring Indeed is all you need right now.
- [54:42]
Advertiser
At the Home Depot, you'll find storage solutions made to fit your needs. Grab an HDX Tuff tote to protect your tools, or keep your sports equipment contained with reinforced snap fit lids. Or stack up and make better use of your space with bins and totes built to last. Whatever your storing, we've got the gear to keep it organized and protected at the Home Depot. How doers get more Done.
- [55:12]
Living with schizophrenia isn't easy, especially when you're not getting relief from some of your symptoms. It can be hard when you're still dealing with symptoms like hearing voices or seeing things that aren't there, and negative symptoms like feeling unmotivated or avoiding social situations. If this sounds familiar, it might be time to talk to your healthcare provider and explore a different kind of schizophrenia treatment. Discover your possibilities@treatingscz.com.