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- [00:00]
Tom Holland
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- [00:18]
Dominic Sandbrook
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- [00:49]
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- [02:00]
John Knox
If princes exceed their bounds, Madam, no doubt they should be resisted even by power. There is neither greater honor nor greater obedience to be given to kings or princes than God has commanded to be given to father and mother. But madam, the father may be stricken with a frenzy in which he would slay his own children. Now madam, if the children arise, join themselves together, apprehend the father, take the sword or other weapons from him, and finally bind his hands and keep him in prison until his frenzy be overpast. Think ye, Madam, that the children do any wrong? That's even so, madam, with princes that would murder the children of God that are subject unto them. To take the sword from them, to bind their hands, and to cast them into prison until they be brought to a most sober mind is no disobedience against princes, but just obedience because it agreeth with the will of God. At these words, the Queen stood as if it were amazed. For more than a quarter of an hour, her countenance altered. So the Lord James began to entreat her and to demand, what has offended you, madam? At length she said, well, then I.
- [03:21]
Tom Holland
Perceive that my subjects shall obey you.
- [03:24]
John Knox
And not me, and shall do what they list and not what I command, and so must I be subject to.
- [03:29]
Tom Holland
Them and they not to me. So that was a real variety of accents.
- [03:36]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, extraordinary smorgasbord of accents, not all.
- [03:39]
Tom Holland
Of them accurate, I think, because it was John Knox. This is John Knox, who's the great Protestant reformer we talked about last week. This is his history of the Reformation. Now, this is. If you think that's a daunting book, you're quite wrong. A top historian, Alec Ryrie, who disagrees with Tom about the date of the world's first revolution. He describes this book as gossipy, cantankerous and enthralling. And what he's describing there is his first meeting with the Catholic Queen of Scotland, Mary Stuart, Mary Queen of Scots, on the 4th of September, 1561. And, Tom, I know you regard this as, and I quote, one of the.
- [04:23]
John Knox
Most extraordinary encounters in Scottish history.
- [04:27]
Tom Holland
So what's going on?
- [04:29]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, just to say, first of all that of course, Mary Queen of Scots spoke in Scots. Even though she had come from France, she wouldn't necessarily have had a French accent.
- [04:38]
Tom Holland
She's been in France a long time.
- [04:40]
Dominic Sandbrook
I admire the subtlety of. Of your vocalization there. So what's going on is that John Knox is articulating a radically Protestant perspective that enables him to justify essentially him telling off an anointed queen and essentially kind of threatening her with imprisonment and deposition if she doesn't do God's will. And God's will obviously equates to what John Knox thinks Mary Queen of Scots should be doing. And you mentioned Alec Ryrie and you mentioned his views on revolutions, and we quoted him in the previous episode as saying that the Reformation in Scotland, in his opinion, is arguably the first modern revolution. In other words, the first revolution in modern European history. And I guess that listening to him harangue his anointed monarch, you can kind of see why. Because that diatribe against her, comparing her to a parent who's gone mad and who has to be locked up by her own children. And he then goes on actually to compare her to Nero, notoriously the worst of the Roman emperors. I mean, it feels like a signpost pointing to Europe's future. So to the execution of Mary's own grandson, Charles the First, to the execution of Louis xvi, to the execution of Nicholas ii. And I think it really vividly illustrates the degree to which Mary, who is still, at this point, only 18 years old, she's been absent from Scotland for 13 years, she's been back in Edinburgh for less than a month, and here she is staring down the barrel of something that none of her predecessors on the Scottish throne, none of her Stuart forebears, had ever had to handle. And what she is staring down is a kind of a form of Christianity that not only sanctions, but positively encourages the overthrow of monarchs who fail to measure up to its very, very exacting moral standards. And Mary will come to see this as a form of republicanism. And, of course, it's so interesting, isn't it, because we know where this is going to end up. It's going to end up on the scaffold in Whitehall with the execution of her grandson.
- [06:51]
Tom Holland
But, Tom, the obvious question here, why does she put up with this? Why does she just stand there and take this? Because if you imagine Elizabeth I, or I mean, imagine Henry viii, imagine someone, you know, going into Henry VIII and him listening to all this, why is she so passive?
- [07:06]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, I think there are two possible answers, or maybe a mix of two answers. So one of them is that, as we said, she's a very young woman, she's not familiar with Scotland. You know, she's just arrived in this strange place and she's being shouted at by angry, angry men with beards. Right? And you can argue that she is, in that sense, the victim of forces beyond her control. And that's very much a sense of Mary Queen of Scots that's been popular, you know, for centuries and centuries. Another answer is to say, as Jenny Wormald, in her very negative book about Mary Queen of Scots, is to say that she's a ruler whose life was marked by irresponsibility and failure on a scale unparalleled in her own day.
- [07:50]
Tom Holland
Both those things can be true, though. I mean, people, people, you know, what did Karl Marx say? They make history, but not in circumstances of their own choosing. So the circumstances can be terrible, but you can also make a series of very, very bad choices, which I think Mary Queen of Scots does so. Well, let's put this into some context. So she's been in France, hence the French accent. Her husband, the King of France, died in December 1560, so she's no longer the Queen of France. She is still, however, the Queen of Scots, even though she hasn't been in Scotland for a long time.
- [08:23]
Dominic Sandbrook
She.
- [08:23]
Tom Holland
We talked about this last time. She doesn't rush back to Scotland, which she might have done. She. She hangs around in France saying goodbye to people and going on a little tour. And then only in August 1561 does she set sail from Calais. And it's a great sort of enterprise, this, isn't it, because she's got all her dresses and she's got all her. The hangers on her squad, all these kinds of people. So set the scene for us a little bit.
- [08:48]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah. So she. She sets off from Calais, as you say, she's got her transport ships, horses, shoes, clothes, whatever, and she's got her squad, so her beloved ladies in waiting, the Four Marys. So posh, pretty, fashion and sporty. She's also taking French chefs because obviously she's not going to rely on Scottish cooking. She's got valets, tailors, chaplains, doctors, apothecaries, kind of the works. And she's even brought a French poet, a guy called Pierre de Chatelard, and he is exactly the kind of guy that any young queen would want to have. So as they're sailing to Edinburgh, he declares to Mary, Queen of Scots that there is no need for lanterns to light their way for, and I quote, the eyes of this queen suffice to light up the whole sea with their lovely fire.
- [09:35]
Tom Holland
Oh, that's very nice.
- [09:37]
Dominic Sandbrook
And they make tremendously good speed. They arrive at Leith, the harbor of Edinburgh, five days later. And people who heard the last episode may remember it's cloaked by very thick sea mist. So Mary can't actually even see, you know, Scotland, this new land that she's arrived at. And it takes time for the mist to clear the sun to burn it away and for them to. To set foot on Scottish soil. And when they do land, they find that no one is expecting them because they've come so fast. And also we mentioned in the previous episode how an English kind of naval patrol had confiscated the ship that was taking Mary's horses. So not only is there no one to greet her, but she doesn't have anything to ride into Edinburgh. And so this isn't at all the kind of grand entry into her kingdom that she'd been hoping for. And she must have thought, you know, this is a terrible omen. But she gets from Leith up into Edinburgh and there things start to improve because the residence, they are led to Holyrood House, which is a palace in Edinburgh at The opposite end of the royal mile from Edinburgh Castle is actually more than acceptable. You know, it's. Even by the standards of a French chateau, it's. It's absolutely fine. And it had been built for Mary's grandmother, who was English, Margaret Tudor. And this is how Mary has Tudor as well as Stuart blood in her veins. Very important for the developments of the rest of her reign. And on one level, Holyrood House is a proper castle. So it's got a moat, it's got a drawbridge and it's got this massive tower built by her dad, James V. But the tower is very, very comfortable. It's been furnished in the most up to date and stylish French manner. And also there are kind of exquisite gardens that ultimately date back to the 12th century. So as. As the name of the palace implies, there'd been an abbey on the site, but again, it's been redesigned by French gardeners in the style of the kind of gardens that you would, you know, you'd stroll around in the Loire chatting to Leonardo da Vinci and all of that. And there's a French chronicler who, together with the poet. So she's taken loads of writers, has come with her from France to Scotland and he's. I mean, he's quite impressed, he says that the palace is much grander than was to be expected in so poor a country as Scotland. So I think coming from a Frenchman, that's very high praise.
- [12:07]
Tom Holland
That's high praise. So. And she's brought loads of stuff from France, hasn't she? Of course, she's got 100 tapestries, she's got tablecloths, she's got a throne that she's brought with her. And so she, once she's unpacked, I mean, she could think she's still in France, which is nice. So I guess, is there a sense that she's recreating a little bit of France in the centre of Edinburgh, or at least at the end of the Royal Mile?
- [12:26]
Dominic Sandbrook
She's like a very, very posh English student arriving at St Andrews.
- [12:30]
Tom Holland
Or Edinburgh.
- [12:31]
Dominic Sandbrook
Oh, yeah, or Edinburgh. Looking at Tabby, our producer.
- [12:34]
Tom Holland
Yeah, like Tabby. This is exactly what Tabby did.
- [12:37]
Dominic Sandbrook
A little corner of the Home Counties.
- [12:39]
Tom Holland
Do you know what? The parallels are uncanny.
- [12:41]
Dominic Sandbrook
I think that's exactly what she's doing and I think the architecture of the palace helps her to do that because in a sense, the ground floor is place where the business of state is done. So this is where the Privy Council is meeting. But Mary, if she wants to, can just go up the spiral staircase to her private quarters, and just remove herself back into a kind of French wonderland. And that sense of a division between the sphere of the state, which is where she should be as a queen, and the fact that she is able to withdraw from it and from the nobles who feel that she should be kind of communing with them. I mean, this is a very, very important dynamic throughout the events that we will follow.
- [13:18]
Tom Holland
But. But here's a big contrast with Tabby. Mary's a massive fashionista. I mean, Mary loves an extravagant golden gown. Tabby never wears a golden gown, but Mary doesn't. She's got all this sort of velvet shoes and silk garters and all this kind of thing. And this is basically stuff she's brought from France, French fashion. A little bit like when Anne Boleyn turned up at the court in England from, you know, where she'd been in France, and she bought new fashions. There's an element of that, right?
- [13:45]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah. I mean, I think Mary is like Tabby to the degree that Tabby is very glamorous. And this is undoubtedly what Mary Queen of Scots is bringing to Edinburgh. She's a kind of like a film star alighting at a, I suppose a kind of a film festival in an out of the way European corner.
- [14:02]
Tom Holland
She's gone to the Hartlepool Film Festival.
- [14:05]
Dominic Sandbrook
She's gone to the Hartlepool Film Festival. Yes, exactly. And as you say, she's brought all this, all these clothes, her, you know, as you said, the velvet shoes and the. The silk garters and everything. And so she makes sure to show it off. And she's been disappointed in her original entry. So on the 2nd of September, she decides, well, I'll do it again. I'll pretend that I've just arrived. And so she stages this magnificent formal entry into the city, and then a few weeks later, she stages a royal progress, which takes in Linlithgow, where she'd been born, Stirling, Perth Dundee, St. Andrews. So kind of key places in the kingdom to show herself off, to introduce herself. And it's an absolutely massive success because she's very beautiful, she's very charming, she's very vivacious, and the crowds think she's tremendous. And they've been, you know, she's a kind of figure of myth, almost. People have been talking about her. She's been the queen over the water and now she's arrived, kind of bestowing the stardust of French glamour on Scotland, and she's a tremendous success. And I think that what people like about her is what people in the French court had liked about her, which is that she is fun. She clearly enjoys life. She has a capacity for enjoyment. And the vast majority of her subjects, I mean, they don't object to her gregariousness, to her kind of devotion to dancing and to masks and to all this kind of stuff. And the fact that she has these four best friends, her squad, the four Marys in attendance, this also people find this kind of charming. So they roam Edinburgh disguised as men. In St. Andrews, they. They disguise themselves as housewives and do the shopping. And they even have a French jester called Nicola. And there's a lot of banter with this French jester. So I think if you like young women having fun, Mary's great. However, if you don't like the spectacle of young women having fun, then it's about as. As offensive as it can be, right?
- [16:09]
Tom Holland
Because this is an issue. I mean, this is an issue in all history that there are always people who don't like young women having fun. Now, John Guy in his biography says not everybody wanted joyosity. And John Knox, for example, he complains bitterly, doesn't he? I mean, he's the great Protestant reformer.
- [16:28]
John Knox
And he says when her French phillocks, fiddlers and others of that band got the house alone, they might be seen skipping. Not very comely for honest women.
- [16:37]
Tom Holland
So basically there's French fillocks and there's uncomely skipping, which is very distinct. And I guess he sees that if I can get into John Knox's head, which is actually quite a Durer place to be, he almost certainly would see that as a symptom of a bigger issue, which is her Catholicism, right, Her potpourri, which involves too much fun, too much dressing up superstitions and, you know, obedience to the Bishop of Rome. And all of these things are terrible.
- [17:07]
Dominic Sandbrook
All of these things. And from the moment she's arrived in Scotland, there have been hostile demonstrations, which Knox himself almost certainly has organized. So back on the 24th of August, so that's only five days after she'd landed, a group of Protestants had tried to burst into her chapel at Holyrood and disrupt the mass that people may remember. It had been legally agreed that she could celebrate Mass in her private quarters. And I think, again, this encourages a sense among those hostile to her that her private quarters, you know, up the spiral staircase in the tower, that this is where her felix and fiddlers are, but also where all kinds of papist nonsense is being practiced. And it means that Mary, right from the beginning is in opposition to the most kind of vibrant and revolutionary trends in Scottish public life. The sense of momentum is all with the Protestants, and again and again they try to publicly humiliate her. So when she does her formal entry into Edinburgh, Knox again uses it to stage anti Catholic pageantry. So there's a slight kind of Ian Paisley quality, you know, yelling at the Pope, that kind of thing. So she's, she's processing and the description is a child appears out of a cloud. So I don't quite know how that worked. I mean, how they would have simulated a cloud. Anyway, a child emerges from a cloud, whatever, and gives her a Bible and a psalter that is written in Scots, so in the vernacular. And this is obviously a very Protestant statement. And Mary is very sniffy about it. And she, she's given the, these two books and she very ostentatiously hands them to a particularly notorious Catholic who is standing nearby to show to the crowds what she thinks of this.
- [18:58]
Tom Holland
And here's a really good example. Early on, she's in a difficult situation, but she makes what I would say is a bad choice. You know, there are better politicians who would have handled that in a different way, and she doesn't. And I think this is the theme that runs through her life. But anyway, that's to jump ahead.
- [19:13]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, no, this is the context for her summoning Knox on the 4th of September. So that's two days after that procession and having that interview that you read at the beginning of this episode. And it's clear that she hasn't prepared for the possibility of what Nox is going to say. And when, you know, she maintains her dignity in talking to Nox. But when Nox withdraws, she bursts into tears. And it's clear that nothing in her life has prepared her for the experience of talking to someone like Nox and being harangued in the way that Knox harangues her. And she just hasn't briefed herself, she hasn't prepared herself for what's gonna happen. And I think that clearly it's very, very bad luck that she, a young woman who has no real experience of Scotland, that, that she is the, the, you know, the, the steward who has to confront this for the first time. But she's not entirely helpless. She has a lot of aids, a lot of advisors who are there to be consulted, and she clearly hasn't, I think, consulted them.
- [20:17]
Tom Holland
Well, this is the key to the whole story, I think, that you have somebody who's in an extremely difficult situation as, as Lots of commas, great monarchs, politicians, statesmen, stateswomen, whatever, are in history. And the test of your caliber is the choices that you make. And there is, you've mentioned a few times the historian, Jenny Wormold, brilliant historian about 15th and 16th century Scotland. And she definitely believes, doesn't she, that there is a. An instructive parallel across the border from which Mary does not learn and will.
- [20:52]
Dominic Sandbrook
Never learn, of course, and that is Mary Tudor. So bloody Mary. And it may seem odd that, that a historian is criticizing Mary, Queen of Scots for not being like. More like Mary Tudor, whose reign is a failure. She fails to introduce Catholicism into England. But I think that had, you know, we talked about this before, had Mary Tudor lived, almost certainly England would have been returned to Catholicism. And the reason for that is that Mary Tudor goes in very hard in favor of religion, her own beliefs. So when she enters London as queen, she similarly faces kind of Protestant displays and opposition, but she comes down very, very hard on it. And she institutes all kinds of policies that are designed to reverse the pro Protestant policies that her younger brother, Edward VI had put in place. And so there is no real reason why Mary couldn't have done that. Mary Queen of Scots. And she has lots in her favor because, as we've said, Mary's actually very, very popular with the broad mass of her subjects. She could easily have taken them with her. Most people in Edinburgh, let alone in the country beyond Edinburgh, remain Catholic. And even if most of the nobility in Scotland now are Protestant, up in the Highlands there are very potent aristocratic figures who are still Catholic. So that's a, a real source of strength that Mary could draw on. And in particular, there's a. The family of the Gordons, who are the. The Earls of Moray, they're called the Lieutenants of the north, or sometimes the Cocks of the North. And these are not just a Catholic, but famously loyal to the stewards. So she does have a reserve of popular and of aristocratic Catholic support that she could have drawn on.
- [22:45]
Tom Holland
Now, some listeners may say you're being very hard here, because of course, a great problem for her is not just that she hasn't been to Scotland, but that she's a woman and that she's a woman in a man's world, and that makes her task all the more difficult. I suppose the counter argument, though, is that obviously her cousin Mary Tudor is also a woman, but actually the 16th century has a lot of very impressive female leaders or politicians who do make good choices. So you mentioned in the last episodes, her mother, Mary of Guise or her mother in law, Catherine de Medici. Two people you've mentioned who are very formidable and are very smart and supple political operators.
- [23:25]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, so that. And they are all Catholic. But of course, another example of a female ruler who is able to bend the religious contours of her country to her will is Mary's Mary, Queen of Scots, cousin Elizabeth I, who's Protestant. I mean, the thing is that it is possible, if you are a female ruler in 16th century Europe, to shape the religious policies of your country. In fact, I mean, I think it's completely expected to reiterate, Mary has the disadvantage of not being familiar with Scotland. I mean, that is, I think, a bigger issue for her than, than her sex. But Wormald, who is really, I mean, never misses an opportunity to be down on Mary, as we will see over the course of subsequent episodes. I mean, she, I think, justifiably accuses Mary essentially of being lazy. And to back this up, she cites some very damning statistics. So she says in the 16 months between Mary's return from France and the end of 1562, she attended her council 17 times out of 54 recorded meetings. I mean, that's, that's a very low attendance rate.
- [24:33]
Tom Holland
She's the Nigel Farage of Scottish politics.
- [24:36]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, but Nigel Farage can appeal over the heads of people. Mary's not doing that either. She's not leveraging her popularity with the vast mass of people, but her willingness to kind of pull on the levers of state also is not there. So by 1564, she's attending five out of 50 council meetings.
- [24:57]
Tom Holland
Okay, that's pretty poor.
- [24:59]
Dominic Sandbrook
I mean, that is quite lazy. A counter argument to this might be that she's, she's facing these hard Protestant nobles, kind of rough, tough men. I mean, that's the, certainly the French stereotype of the Scottish nobility. And maybe Mary shares in that. And so perhaps she's intimidated by them. And it's certainly the case that there are a fair number of quite alarming men on the Privy Council. So Antonia Fraser, in her, her very famous biography, she cites a Patrick Lord Ruffin and describes him as an alleged warlock.
- [25:37]
Tom Holland
Oh, no way.
- [25:38]
John Knox
Wow.
- [25:38]
Tom Holland
We love an alleged warlock.
- [25:41]
Dominic Sandbrook
We know from our series on Evita that having a warlock knocking around is never good news for a country.
- [25:49]
Tom Holland
Oh my God. He doesn't end up, this bloke doesn't end up like the Minister of Social Welfare as well, does he?
- [25:53]
Dominic Sandbrook
We will see what happens to Lord Ruffin. And he joined the council in 1563, so that's after Mary has returned to Scotland, despite the fact that Mary is describing him as a man I cannot love. So he's on the scene. And then there's an even more sinister figure who will play a huge part in this story. And he's. He's a guy called James Douglas, the fourth Earl of Morton. And he, like Lord Ruffin, gets appointed to the privy Council in 1563. But more than that, Mary appoints him Lord Chancellor. And again, Antonio Fraser gives a brilliant character sketch of him. And I'm going to read this and see whether it. It reminds listeners of anyone. The small gray eyes in his florid face covered a cruel mind. His pudgy hands grasped avariciously all his life for what rewards and benefits were to be accrued. His slow speech concealed an unpleasant ability to revenge himself swiftly on those who had offended him. It's Captain Benteen, isn't it?
- [26:53]
Tom Holland
No, Captain Benteen was silver tongued.
- [26:55]
Dominic Sandbrook
Oh, was he?
- [26:55]
Tom Holland
This guy with his slow speech is in a different league altogether.
- [26:58]
Dominic Sandbrook
No, not the kind of guy, perhaps that a young woman wants staring at her, waving his pudgy fingers at her.
- [27:04]
Tom Holland
She's appointed these blokes, though. No, these are her choices.
- [27:07]
Dominic Sandbrook
So this is the mad thing. I mean, she's saying, I don't like him. Oh, he's got pudgy fingers. They're terrible men. Yeah, you're the queen. Sack them. And so again, to quote Wormald, if it is hard to think of another adult ruler who showed such indifference to domestic political matters as she did over the nomination of the council as a whole, it becomes impossible to find a parallel where the officers of state were concerned. So in other words, you know, if, if you don't want a sinister, pudgy fingered guy with slow speech and a. A tendency to kill people who oppose him as chancellor, don't appoint him.
- [27:41]
Tom Holland
And what explains this? What? Just, she's not thinking things through. She's just, you know, what's the explanation?
- [27:48]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, we'll come to that in a minute. But just to emphasize how odd Mary's behavior is, first, it's not just that she's appointing warlocks and sinister Protestants to her council. It's also that she seems to be going out of her way to kneecap her natural supporters. So in 1562 she goes on a progress north. And of course, it's expected that her great host on this progress will be George Gordon, the Earl of Moray, her great Catholic champion in the Highlands. And Mary's treatment of him is really startling because first of all she strips him of the Earldom of Moray and gives it to her half brother, Lord James Stewart. So from this point on, we will be referring to Lord James Stewart as Moray.
- [28:34]
Tom Holland
Okay.
- [28:35]
Dominic Sandbrook
Then in August, she's reached Aberdeen and she gets into a massive spat with George Gordon and it ends up with Gordon being outlawed. And then there's a battle and Gordon dies of apoplexy in the battle and his children get tainted and stripped of their lands and their titles. And it all seems really odd that a Catholic queen should be destroying the man and the family who are perhaps her most formidable Catholic supporters, and doing it what is more in aid of a Protestant? Because to be sure, the new Earl of Moray, the former Lord James Stewart, is her half brother. Mary values their relationship, but he is also a very subtle operator. He's committed to the Protestant cause in Scotland in a way that is vastly more robust than any anything that, that, that Mary does for the Catholic cause. And as a result of this, to Catholics across Europe, Mary's behavior seems completely incomprehensible. And to us, I think, of course, it seems quite liberal. The idea of Mary as being very tolerant of allowing Protestants and Catholics to worship as they want. Instinctively, we think this makes her an appealing character. But I think to defend her as a, a kind of a, in the 21st century sense is wildly anachronistic because everyone in 16th century Europe, whether you're Catholic or Protestant, completely takes for granted that monarchs have a duty to the souls of those who are their subjects. And that's why to look at England, people are not surprised that Edward vi, who's been raised as a Protestant, should want England to be Protestant, that Mary, who's been raised as Catholic, should want England to be Catholic, and then that Elizabeth, when she comes to the throne, should take England back to Protestantism. I mean, this is what's taken for granted. And so for a Catholic monarch to side with Protestants, as Mary seems to be doing, and make absolutely no effort at all to restore her kingdom to what, presumably as a Catholic, she thinks, you know, will be to the benefit of, of the souls of her subjects, from the perspective of pretty much everyone in Europe, it seems really, really weird. In fact, as Wormwood puts it, it's extraordinary and profoundly irresponsible. And to emphasize just how extraordinary and irresponsible Wormwood then makes this point, and it seems to me incontrovertible. Mary was unique in Reformation Europe, for it was she who ensured that the official religion of her country was not the religion of its ruler. There is no other example of this happening in 16th century Europe.
- [31:24]
Tom Holland
So Tom, do you know what this is A puzzle with massive implications, isn't it? For Scotland, for Britain and for Europe. So maybe because it's such a thrilling riddle we should take a break and you can compose yourself and think of an answer and then return after the break and we'll find out the answer.
- [31:42]
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- [32:12]
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Dominic Sandbrook
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- [32:33]
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- [32:35]
Sarah Churchwell
And I'm Sarah Churchwell. Together we're the hosts of Journey Through Time where we explore the darkest depths of history through the eyes of the the people who live through it.
- [32:43]
David Olusoga
Today we're going to tell you about our new series on the Great Fire of London. One of the great pivotal events of the 17th century, one of the most important events in all of English and British history.
- [32:53]
Sarah Churchwell
It began at a bakery on Pudding Lane and quickly turned into a catastrophe. It consumed 13,000 houses. It decimated London and caused £10 billion worth of damage in today's money. It even burned down the iconic St. Paul Cathedral.
- [33:09]
David Olusoga
The city was already devastated by the great plague, but rumors of foreign invasion led mobs to attack innocent foreigners on the streets. In this episode, we'll explore the chilling consequences of rumors of fake news of xenophobia, problems that clearly are not unique to today.
- [33:27]
Sarah Churchwell
From desperate attempts to save their homes and belongings to the struggle to assign blame, which turned deadly. This is the story of the fire as it was lived through by the people on the ground and the lasting impacts it left on the city.
- [33:40]
David Olusoga
We've got a short clip at the end of this episode.
- [33:50]
Tom Holland
Hello and welcome back to the Rest Is History. Absolutely tumultuous scenes in the break there. While you were listening to the adverts, if you're not a member of the Rest Is History Club Tabby, our producer has revealed that she does actually when she's not recording episodes, she does have a Golden gown and velvet shoes. So I stand ashamed and corrected. Yeah, I've let myself down, I've let Tabby down, I've let the rest of his history down, which is sad. But we left you, more importantly, with a riddle, which is about a Catholic queen who seems to be very pious, who turns up to her country and then basically punishes a lot of Catholics, promotes a lot of Protestants and doesn't do what seems like the obvious thing, which is basically to stamp out this heresy of Protestantism and to return her people to the one true Catholic faith, which is, of course, what Mary Tudor had done in England. So why does Mary, Queen of Scots not do it in Scotland, Tom?
- [34:46]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, it can be explained, perhaps, by her deep, deep sense of homesickness. She, I think, is profoundly nostalgic for a country that is not her own. And ironically, we touched on this in the previous episode, in that she is quite like John Knox, her great adversary. So we talked in the previous episode about how Knox had been given shelter in England after he'd been freed from working as a galley slave in the French, you know, for the French. And he'd been highly trusted by Edward VI in England and Edward's ministers to join them in this great mission to reform the English Church. And so he'd always longed to return to England, and given the choice, he. He would have gone there in 1559 when Mary Tudor dies, but unfortunately, he'd been very rude about female rulers, and so Elizabeth I, when she comes to the throne, won't have him, and so he goes to Scotland instead. Mary isn't homesick for England, of course, she's never been to England, but she is homesick, I think, for France. And you can tell that from the amount of the number of attendants from France that she's bought her French furnishings, her fittings, you know, the way that her interior decoration is all French, but. And the way in which, you know, she's got her Privy Council meeting downstairs at Holyrood, you know, the warlock and the guy with the pudgy fingers and all of that, but she can always retreat from it, up the spiral staircase to her little bit of France that she's recreated in her apartments up there. And, of course, beyond her palace at Holyrood, there's the filth, the stench of Edinburgh, and beyond Edinburgh, there's the wilds of a country that boasts scarcely a single other city across all its vast extent.
- [36:28]
Tom Holland
Some Scottish listeners will not be pleased.
- [36:30]
Dominic Sandbrook
To hear that I'm not describing Scotland as it is now. And I'm describing Scotland as it's seen by Mary.
- [36:34]
Tom Holland
Well, also here's the thing. At the time in Scotland, in the 16th century, the Scots themselves, perhaps foolishly, some outsiders might say, they think they're a tremendously sophisticated, urbane and civilized people, don't they?
- [36:47]
Dominic Sandbrook
They absolutely do. This is again a crucial aspect of Mary's tragedy, is that Mary takes for granted that France is the sinister of kingdoms and that everyone should want to be French. The Scots don't think that at all. The Scots think they're brilliant and with some justification because actually they, you know, we've talked. They have a very sophisticated, actually quite well functioning kingdom. And the most famous intellectual of Scottish life in the the late 15th, early 16th century, who brilliantly is called John Major, the name of the very English prime Minister in the 1990s he noted how the French had a proverb, he's proud like a Scotsman. The Scots are associated with pride by the French who find this ridiculous. But I mean, I guess a Scot could say the same perhaps about the French. But certainly this, this sense of pride that the Scots have in their own country is definitely enhanced if you're a Scottish Protestant, because I think by this point you're starting to see Scotland as an equivalent of Noah's Ark. It's a vessel of salvation born upon the great rolling oceans of sin. And Mary definitely knows better than to ignore the implications of this for her own standing and reputation, as is illustrated by a very scandalous incident that happens in late 1562. So 1562 is when she kneecaps the Gordons and she returns from the Highlands to Edinburgh and there she is visited by Chatelard, the gushing poet who had compared her eyes to lanterns on their voyage from France to Scotland. And Mary receives Shatelaw with her customary generosity. She gives him a horse, gives him some money to go and buy some new clothes. Tremendous benignity. And Shatelart completely misreads the runes and does something mad. And he, he, I love this. I love this. He climbs the the spiral staircase up to Mary's private quarters and hides under her bed.
- [38:52]
Tom Holland
I was about to say, what is he thinking? I think we all know what he's thinking.
- [38:55]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, before Mary can come to bed, he's found there by two grooms and thrown out. And Mary is furious when she's told about this tremendous lace Majesty. And so she orders him to leave court. But he's playing the part, I think, of, you know, he's like the hero of a chivalric romance. He thinks that that Mary's playing hard to get. And so he follows her to St Andrews. And again, she's in her private quarters. She only has a couple of servants with her. And he bursts in and starts professing his love. Mary screams her. Her brother, the Earl of Moray, comes hurrying to the rescue. Shate is arrested, he's tried and he's sentenced to death. And his last words again are very, very flowery and poetic adieu. The most beautiful and cruel princess in the world. And then as he dies, in my.
- [39:45]
Tom Holland
Mind, he looks like Theo.
- [39:47]
Dominic Sandbrook
Young sport. Yeah, I think, yeah, very possibly, Very possibly. And we laugh. But obviously for Mary, it had been a devastating.
- [39:58]
Tom Holland
Oh, yeah, poor Mary. She's the real victim in all this. Not this bloke who's just been executed.
- [40:03]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, but he's. He's. He's been her. He's basically been stalking her. So it is alarming and frightening.
- [40:08]
Tom Holland
Stalking us, like, twice. I don't think that counts as stalking, does he? He's just.
- [40:12]
Dominic Sandbrook
Come on, he's bursting into her private quarters. I. I think that counts as stalking. I think it's unacceptable behavior. I think that. That killing him for it perhaps is. Is a little severe, but certainly you can imagine how Knox and Protestants of a similar hue interpret it. It confirms all their darker suspicions of Mary's kind of Frenchified habits and.
- [40:31]
Tom Holland
Right. This is French Catholicism run riot.
- [40:35]
Dominic Sandbrook
And again, it confirms this sense that Mary's private quarters, that they're a place where this kind of behavior is taken for granted, that there's scope for all kinds of illicit behavior.
- [40:47]
Tom Holland
Right.
- [40:48]
Dominic Sandbrook
And because of that, Mary knows, therefore she has to be on her strictest guard. I think she is naturally. I mean, she's not sexually promiscuous in any way. I think she has a kind of very strict sexual morality. But she knows what people like Knox are now saying about her. And so she's absolutely on her guard. But I guess that the obvious question is, well, why does she need to worry about what people like Knox are saying about her? Why doesn't she come down harder on them? Why doesn't she round them up, imprison them or whatever? And again, I think, to explain this, we return to her sense of regret for everything that she had experienced as a child and as a teenager, because she's not just homesick for France, she's nostalgic for the experience of being an actor on a stage that is broader and more glamorous than she has in Scotland. And since there is obviously no prospect whatsoever of her returning to France as its queen. That is never going to happen. She starts to look at the possibility of becoming the queen of a second kingdom which is richer than Scotland, more populous than Scotland, and on which she does have a claim. And that kingdom, of course, is England.
- [42:08]
Tom Holland
Oh, my God. I mean, that is mad that if she, if, if that really is her motivation, I, I, I've lost all sympathy for her because that is demented, I think, Tom. I mean, I'm not saying she, I'm not doubting what you're saying or what Jenny Wormold is, because that's what Journey Wormold argues, isn't it? I'm not doubting her argument. But if that really is Mary's rationale for not sorting out the religious affairs of her own kingdom, then I think she deserves, I mean, it sounds harsh, but I think she deserves everything because this is a bad choice from her anyway. Continue.
- [42:38]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, you, you mentioned Jenny Wormold. So to quote her, Mary, Queen of Scots attitude to the religion which she was expected to restore to her kingdom can only be explained in the light of her main priority, her hope, however unlikely to be realized, of the English succession right now.
- [42:53]
Tom Holland
How can she get the English succession? Because Elizabeth I is now Queen of England. She's, and everyone expects that Elizabeth I will get married and will have children and continue the Tudor succession, don't they? But Mary is gambling that that won't happen.
- [43:09]
Dominic Sandbrook
Actually, no, because in 1559, before Mary had even left France for Scotland, Elizabeth had told Parliament that basically that she wasn't going to get married. And so she told Parliament, that shall be for me sufficient that a marble stone shall declare that a queen, having reigned such a time, died a virgin. And so if Elizabeth dies a virgin, she's obviously not going to have children. And if she doesn't have children, then the obvious heir is Mary.
- [43:39]
Tom Holland
But no, but surely not the obvious.
- [43:41]
John Knox
Heir for an up.
- [43:42]
Tom Holland
For a glaring reason precisely at this point, that Mary is Catholic and the English surely by now will never, you know, Elizabeth has turned the pendulum back away from Catholicism after Mary. The English are never going to turn the pendulum back again and go back to Catholicism, are they? Is that likely?
- [44:01]
Dominic Sandbrook
Well, I think, I think this is precisely why, in Wormholt's opinion, and I think she's absolutely right about this, this is why Mary is treading so carefully in her own kingdom, because what she wants is firstly, to win the backing of her own Protestant nobility for her claim to the English throne. And so she doesn't want to alienate them, but also, of course, she wants to demonstrate to Protestants in England that her Catholicism needn't be an insuperable problem to her succeeding Elizabeth as Queen of England. So I think that is basically what is governing her policy.
- [44:39]
Tom Holland
So basically, she's so ambitious for the English throne that she's down. You know, she's still a Catholic deep down, but she's downplaying it publicly as much as possible as a PR move to impress the English. Is that basically the story?
- [44:51]
Dominic Sandbrook
Essentially. And of course, this reflects pretty badly on her loyalty not just to Catholicism, but also to Scotland.
- [44:58]
Tom Holland
Yeah, right. If you're Scottish, listen to this, you're not happy. Right?
- [45:01]
Dominic Sandbrook
I mean, I really do think it's the only explanation for otherwise is. Seems inexplicable. And I. I think it's a kind of. It's a mad policy to. To stake your entire future as a queen of one country on your hope that you might succeed to the throne of another country. And even more so because essentially what Mary's doing is tethering all her future hopes and ambitions to a woman who is notoriously unpredictable and in fact, makes unpredictability the entire basis of her policy. And that, of course, is Elizabeth I herself. And Elizabeth consistently refuses to name Mary, or indeed anyone, as her heir. And in 1561, Mary sends her Secretary of State, who is a very able, competent guy, a man who is very committed to the idea of the union of the English and Scottish thrones, a man called William Maitland from a place called Lethington, so he's often known as Secretary Lethington. And he goes down to London and he meets with Elizabeth I. And Elizabeth tells Maitland, quite bluntly, that she will never, you know, I will never name my successor, despite the fact that, actually, I think in secret, she is quite sympathetic to Mary's claim. She explains why to Maitland in a kind of very memorable way. She says, princes cannot, like their own children, think you that I could love my own winding sheet. She knows that that to name Mary, of course, will create trouble for her.
- [46:37]
Tom Holland
Of course it would. It would mean her political capital evaporates because people switch to the. What they see as the successor. I mean, it's always the way. Mary, however, thinks, doesn't she, that if, you know, the great thing about Mary and Elizabeth is they never meet. And Mary thinks, well, I'm so fun.
- [46:55]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, I charm people.
- [46:56]
Tom Holland
I'm such a charming person that all I have to do is meet her and Elizabeth will be charmed by me. And perhaps because Elizabeth knows that she will try this, she refuses ever to meet her, doesn't she?
- [47:06]
Dominic Sandbrook
She does. There are times where she wavers and something always intrudes, which I think reflects the fact that Elizabeth simply doesn't want to risk being charmed. And the other reason is that even though Elizabeth is very much the. The mistress of her own policy, she. She does have a chief minister who she trusts very deeply. And this is William Cecil, who we've already met as. And he is a very hot Protestant who detests Mary, who thinks that Mary is plotting as a Catholic to become Queen of England, not just out of personal ambition, but to roll back Protestantism in England. And therefore his great amb. Is not just to block Mary's accession to the English throne, but, if he possibly can, to topple Mary from the Scottish throne. So he is a very menacing enemy for Mary. And because Cecil operates in the shadows, he's one that she's kind of not as fully aware of as perhaps she should have been. And there's no question that Elizabeth herself is perfectly happy to engage in mischief making in Scotland to occasionally, you know, just keep the Scots on their toes, make sure that Mary remains dependent on her.
- [48:26]
Tom Holland
There's a good example of this in there in 1563, when Elizabeth is basically trying to stir up trouble and she writes to ask Mary for a favor that she knows Mary will have to grant her. Is that right?
- [48:39]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yes. So this is. Relations between the two cousins have been very bad and this is a kind of power play by Elizabeth to show that she has the upper hand, because what she wants from Mary is she wants Mary to give a passport to Matthew Stewart, the Earl of Lennox, who listeners may remember back in episode one, had backed Henry VIII during the rough wooing. So he'd. He'd had hopes of marrying Mary of Geese and had then been rejected and he'd stormed off in a strop and Henry VIII had given Lennox lands in Yorkshire. And he is a natural troublemaker. He's sufficiently heavyweight that he can create all kinds of trouble in Scotland. And so Mary really hate and she has to weigh up, you know, is his presence in Scotland going to give me more grief than annoying Elizabeth? And rather than annoy Elizabeth, Mary will always take the other path. And so finally she says, I will allow Lennox to come back. But I think also one of the reasons why Mary allows Lennox back is that as she ponders the situation, she starts to realise that perhaps Elizabeth is making a mistake by wanting Lennox to go back. Because effectively what Elizabeth has done by sending Lennox back is to serve up to Mary something that Mary had been desperate to find, namely, a husband capable of consolidating her dynastic right to England.
- [50:14]
Tom Holland
Now, this to explain to the listeners. Now we're going to do a little bit of exciting Tudor genealogy, aren't we?
- [50:21]
Dominic Sandbrook
We certainly are, yes.
- [50:22]
Tom Holland
Because people may remember. So Lennox is a distant cousin of Mary and he is the great grandson of James II of Scotland. So he's got Scottish royal blood, but also he, Lennox, had married the niece of King Henry VIII of England, which means that he's got four sons by this woman and they have between them both Stuart blood and Tudor blood. So very exciting. And one of these young men in particular will play a very prominent role in this story. So tell us about him, Tom.
- [51:03]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yes, so he is a 17 year old lady by the name of Henry, Lord Darnley. He is stunningly good looking, but more to the point, has the best claim to the English throne, perhaps after Mary herself. And so it seems incredible, really, that Elizabeth had failed to think through the implications of this. But Mary, certainly by the time that Lennox returns to Scotland, I mean, she has kind of thought, well, there's a real opportunity here. Because in England, the objections to Mary succeeding Elizabeth had focused not just on her Catholicism, but on the fact that she's a woman and, and a foreigner, so not English. But Darnley, who has been born in England and is a subject of Elizabeth, I mean, seems to promise Mary a way of countering these objections. Now, it is true that Darnley, like Mary, is a Catholic, but he's not a passionately committed one. I mean, actually, rather like Mary, he does also have other drawbacks. So to quote John Guy, his character was tainted by recklessness, sexual excess, pride and stupidity.
- [52:09]
Tom Holland
Oh, no, what a combination.
- [52:11]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, so, so those are drawbacks. And even his good looks, you know, they are capable of being given a negative spin. So when Elizabeth challenges a Scottish emissary, she wants to know, you know what, what are Mary's intentions towards Darnley? The emissary basically replies, there, you've got nothing to worry about. No woman of spirit would make ch such a man. That was more like a woman than a man, for he was very lusty, beardless and lady faced. However, I mean, if he's lady faced, he is also, in the words of another contemporary critic, a great chick.
- [52:44]
Tom Holland
Yeah, I saw that. I was like, who? That's, that's from the, that's 16th century. That's from the time, Right? He's a great chick.
- [52:50]
Dominic Sandbrook
It is. So he, he likes to sleep around. He's yeah, apparently very well endowed, but also, I mean, I think the only word to describe Darnley is that he is a massive cock. Oh my gosh, I would say the biggest cock in British history. And we will discover why over the course of the next couple of episodes. He's a terrible man. Just a terrible man. And Mary, again, if she had had any sense, would have run a million miles from him. But Mary, as we've seen, isn't always given to the best judgment. And when she meets him for the first time, I think she is immediately very taken with him. So this happens on the 17th of February, 1565 in Fife on a small fishing village. And there's an eyewitness to the meeting. And this eyewitness reports that Mary took well with Darnley and found him the lustiest and best proportioned Lang man that she had seen.
- [53:51]
Tom Holland
So, I mean, we had a bloke in the other episode who was their best proportioned members in Scotland, but he's now been eclipsed by Darnley.
- [53:58]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yeah, he has, by Jack Loudon, who's turned up on the scene. So Elizabeth, at the news that Mary has taken a shine to Darnley, starts to panic because suddenly she realizes, oh, this, this is a real problem. So she orders Lennox and Darnley back to England, which, you know, she can give that order because they're both her subjects. But then she changes her mind, decides, no, that's bad. Then she changes it again, then she changes it back. This is classic Elizabeth. She's always kind of prevaricating and changing her mind in such situations. And so she then adopts another strategy, which is to drop hints to Mary that if Mary will drop Darnley, then, then she, Elizabeth will recognize Mary as her heir. But of course, by this point, Mary is not inclined to believe anything that Elizabeth says. You know, she recognizes this as a classic Elizabeth trick. And also, I think now she's got a serious prospect of having a kind of good looking young husband with royal connections. She's starting to think, well, actually, I've been slightly embarrassing myself by hanging on the words of a foreign queen. And so when Elizabeth then tries to strong arm Mary by saying that she, you know, she's never going to confirm her as her heir, Mary, rather than kind of groveling and kind of begging for forgiveness, decides, well, whatever, I'm cutting myself lo from my dependence on Elizabeth. Her patience snaps and she thinks, I'm just going to do what I want, you know, let Elizabeth go hang. And so when Darnley then falls sick. And it will probably not surprise listeners to. To know that this is probably with syphilis, although Mary doesn't seem to have realized this. Mary personally nurses him, and over the course of her time with Darnley in his sickbed, she makes her mind up. So, to quote Antonia Fraser, under the influence of the proximity of the sick room and the tenderness brought forth by the care of the weak, the suffering, and the handsome Darnley, Mary fell violently, recklessly and totally in love.
- [56:05]
Tom Holland
And does she not have counsellors, Tom, who can advise her that this is a very poor decision, as Elizabeth would have done, for example?
- [56:12]
Dominic Sandbrook
She does, and she ignores them. And she also ignores all protestations from the English court. So she summons the English ambassador and tells him the news very bluntly, if your mistress would have used me as I trusted, she would have done. She cannot have had a daughter of her own that would have been more obedient to her than I would have been. But it's now too late. So therefore, as Mary puts it, let her not be offended with my marriage. So, in other words, Elizabeth can complain all she likes, but, you know, she made the bed that I'm now lying in.
- [56:45]
Tom Holland
And here is your classic example, right, of A, a bad choice, and B, as Jenny Wormold would say, just unbelievable irresponsibility. I mean, I think it would be hard for any listener to this show not to conclude that Mary is behaving here with reckless, dare I say, immaturity and irresponsibility.
- [57:01]
Dominic Sandbrook
I mean, impetuosity, certainly.
- [57:03]
Tom Holland
Thing, as I suppose, would you say that about Henry viii? Maybe there are different standards for a man, because a man can. I mean, I'm not defending it. I'm just saying the 16th century, a man can get away with impetuous, reckless behavior.
- [57:13]
Dominic Sandbrook
I think it is different because Henry, as a king, is expected by the social presumptions of the age to have the governing of his wife. And those standards apply to Mary. And so therefore, by marrying Darnley, she, as the wife, will be expected to show a certain measure of respect and perhaps even subordination to her husband. And so that will therefore be giving Darnley a potential whip in his hands that all the evidence suggests he is not best qualified to wield. However, Mary initially doesn't care, and so she goes ahead with the wedding. Then gradually, I think, as the months slip by and she becomes better accustomed to Darnley's behavior, perhaps she starts to get slight intimations that she might have made a mistake. But by now, it's too late, because the bans of her wedding are starting to be read out. And on 22 July, when the banns for her marriage are read out in St. Giles Kirk in Edinburgh, on the same afternoon, she elevates Darnley to the Dukedom of Albany. So, in other words, he will now be of sufficient status that she can marry him.
- [58:33]
Tom Holland
But the luster is already beginning to wear off. Right. He's a, he's, he's drinking like a fish. This is always a, you know, he's a party man, but obviously that, that has consequences. Now, there's also another element to this which I, I enjoy a lot, which is that as well as being a ladies man, he's very metrosexual, is he not? Yes, he is, because he takes a shine to Mary's Italian secretary, a man called David Rizzio.
- [59:04]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yes. So, you know, he's a great cock chick and he's, you know, he swings both ways.
- [59:11]
Tom Holland
So they're caught in bed together, is that right?
- [59:14]
Dominic Sandbrook
Yes, they're caught in bed together. And you'd really think, come on, Mary, this is, this, this is, this is not looking good. And I think what makes it even worse is that actually for, you know, for several weeks, Darnley had really been trying not to behave like a. And then it all gets too much for him and he starts leaping into bed with Italian secretaries and getting massively drunk and also making terrible jokes. So he's at a meeting of the Privy Council and he tells the, the Protestant councillors there that he, he, I care much, you know, I, I, I care much more for English Catholics than Scottish Protestants. And this doesn't go down well at all. And remember, I mean, he has a very braying English accent, and there's nothing, a right, nothing a Scottish privy councillor enjoys more than a braying English accent. But I think the, the most damaging and ominous sign of how unsuited he is to be Mary's husband is that even before they got married, he is insisting to, to Mary that she proclaim him King of Scotland. So this is your, the answer to your question of, of, well, Henry VIII did it. Why shouldn't Mary? He is able to insist on this because he says, I am your husband, therefore I should have the leading of you. It is unfair that you are a, a regnant queen and I don't have the title of king. The problem is that this is yet another kind of potential disaster for Mary because it's extremely unconstitutional. Only Parliament can declare Darnley king. And so Darnley goes into a massive sulk. Mary cries. Darnley gets more and more uncooperative. And finally, Mary gives in and says, fine, you can be king. And so, on the 29th of July, Mary and Darnley are married. And after the ceremony, there's a banquet, there's lots of dancing. Then they have another banquet, more dancing. Knox, of course, doesn't approve of this at all. But there are also others who are looking on Mary's new husband with deep suspicion. And basically, these are all the Protestant nobles at Mary's court. And the key figure among these is the Earl of Moray, who is Mary's formidable half brother. And he has not come to the wedding and he is not at the festivities. And then, the day after the wedding, at midday, all the lords gather, and a herald confirms the darkest fears of the assembled lords, because it is announced that the official titles of the newlyweds are to be Henry and Mary, King and Queen of Scotland. And so it is made public that Mary has surrendered to Darnley's importunities. He has got his way. And none of the nobles cheer the proclamation. None of them applaud it. None of them even say Amen. There is a total silence. And then one man does speak up. And this is Lennox, Darnley's father. And he breaks the silent and says, God save his Grace. But no one replies to that. And again, everything is silence.
- [62:09]
Tom Holland
Oh, Mary. Oh, dear. This isn't going to end well. Well, in the next episode, we will find out how the happy and devoted couple fare. We will be exploring the sweetness and light of their marriage and nothing will possibly go wrong. There will be no terrible scenes, violence, explosions. Yeah, there will definitely be no murders. You'll be able to listen to that right now by joining our own kingdom seething with sectarian hatreds. And that's the Rest is History Club.
- [62:41]
Dominic Sandbrook
Now.
- [62:42]
Tom Holland
You can go to that@the restishistory.com I don't think anybody has ever heard these words before, which is great. If you don't want to do that, more fool you. But we'll be back either way with the next installment of this thrilling series about Mary, Queen of Scots. Goodbye.
- [62:56]
Dominic Sandbrook
Bye. Bye.
- [63:07]
David Olusoga
It's David Ulushoga from Journey Through Time. Here's that clip that we mentioned earlier. If you look at all of the accounts of the fire at this point, as we get to the end of Sunday the 2nd, the 1st day, this fire is not behaving in any way the way fires traditionally did in London. And there are some people who've argued that it was becoming a firestorm, that the heat and the wind and the movement of air caused by the fire was feeding it was becoming self sustaining as it were. John Eveling who's a great writer and a director terrorist of this moment, he talks about the sound of the fire. He said it was like thousands of chariots driving over cobblestones. There are descriptions in Pepys and elsewhere of this great arc of fire in the sky. I mean imagine that everything around you is colored by the flames, yellows and oranges and above you is this thick black smoke. This is a city you know, these are streets you walk. This is a place that's deeply familiar to you and it looks completely otherworldly. It looks like another, like a sort of landscape you've never seen before. People describe the fire almost as if it's supernatural.
- [64:22]
Sarah Churchwell
If you want to hear the full episode listen to Journey Through Time wherever you get your podcasts.