617. Elizabeth I: Anne Boleyn's Bastard (Part 2)

Summary

The Rest Is History – Episode 617: Elizabeth I: Anne Boleyn's Bastard (Part 2)

Hosts: Tom Holland & Dominic Sandbrook
Date: November 13, 2025

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Overview

In this gripping episode, Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook continue their exploration of the turbulent early life of Elizabeth I in the aftermath of her mother Anne Boleyn’s execution. The hosts chart Elizabeth's precarious position at Henry VIII's court, the psychological and political impacts of her loss of status, her formative relationships, and the dangers posed by the machinations of those around her—including the predatory ambitions of Thomas Seymour. Through expert storytelling and lively banter, the episode reveals how these traumas and court intrigues shaped Elizabeth’s character and prepared her for her eventual rise to the throne.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Immediate Aftermath of Anne Boleyn’s Death

• Elizabeth’s Downgrading: With Anne Boleyn executed, Elizabeth, not yet three, is stripped of her royal status and named a bastard (03:55).
  • Quote: “She’s no longer the heir to the throne... now officially proclaimed a bastard... Henry VIII has ordered that she be kept from his sight.” —Tom Holland (05:10)
• Lady Bryan’s Lament: Elizabeth’s caretaker pleads for basic necessities, highlighting her sudden fall from royal privilege (02:43).
  • Quote: “She has neither gown nor kirtle, nor petticoat, nor linen for smocks...”—Letter read by Dominic Sandbrook (02:43)

2. Henry VIII’s Focus Moves Elsewhere

• Jane Seymour’s Favoritism: Jane Seymour, Henry’s new queen, shows kindness to Mary but largely ignores Elizabeth, exacerbating Elizabeth’s isolation (07:32, 12:00).
• Mary’s Reconciliation: Mary, now also declared illegitimate, surprisingly forms a close, empathetic bond with Elizabeth (08:56).
  • Quote: “From this point on, I shall never call her by other name than sister.” —Mary, via Tom Holland (09:24)
  • Mary even prays for Anne Boleyn’s soul—an act of immense generosity (09:40).

3. Elizabeth’s Early Psychological Wounds & Precocity

• Profound Childhood Trauma: Elizabeth is conscious of her altered status and the absence of her mother, Anne (11:30).
  • Quote: “Why, Governor, how happit yesterday Lady Princess and today but Lady Elizabeth?” —Elizabeth, as related by Tom (10:03)
• Formation of Close Attendant Bonds: After losing Lady Bryan and her mother, Elizabeth clings to her governesses and closest servants, such as Kate Champernown (13:44).

4. Elizabeth’s Intellectual and Emotional Development

• Education under Kate Champernown (Ashley) and Roger Ascham:
  • Kate is depicted not as a “dimwit” but as a formidable scholar and humanist (14:46).
  • Quote: “She hath taken great labor and pain in bringing of me up in love and honesty.” —Elizabeth on Kate (14:46)
  • By six, Elizabeth astonishes courtiers with her intellect and grace (16:45).
• Influence of Catherine Parr:
  • Catherine Parr, Henry’s final wife, becomes a model of female governance and offers Elizabeth a nurturing, intellectually rich environment (20:32).

5. Tudor Politics and Upheaval

• Complex Succession: Henry’s Act of Succession reinstates Elizabeth in line after Edward and Mary, despite her remaining legally a bastard (19:03).
• Education alongside Edward VI: Catherine Parr arranges for Elizabeth to share tutors with Edward, accelerating her intellectual prowess (22:53, 24:34).

6. Elizabeth and the Protestant Cause

• Protestant Leanings: Elizabeth's gifts to Catherine Parr and Henry display not just intellect but also religious alignment with the Protestant cause (25:43).
  • Example: Translations and embroidery at age 12 as New Year gifts (26:54).

7. The Seymour Scandal and Teenage Trial by Fire

• Thomas Seymour’s Predatory Behavior: Thomas Seymour, Catherine Parr’s new husband and Elizabeth’s guardian, behaves inappropriately with the teenage Elizabeth—morning bedroom visits, physical familiarity, culminating in an ambiguous incident witnessed by Catherine (35:47–38:05).
  • Quote: “He would come up and strike her upon the back or on the buttocks.” —Tom Holland (35:47)
  • Quote: “There’s one very bizarre occasion when Catherine and Elizabeth are out walking... and Thomas surprises them and he cuts Elizabeth’s gown—in a hundred pieces.” —Tom Holland (36:20)
• Catherine Parr’s Death: Catherine dies shortly after childbirth, leaving Elizabeth once again bereaved (39:45–39:52).
• Seymour’s Ambition and Intrigue: Thomas Seymour further schemes to win Elizabeth’s hand and influence Edward VI, encouraged by complicit attendants—but Elizabeth maintains strategic ambiguity and refuses to commit (43:44–47:29).
  • Quote: “She is very, very good at playing a dead bat, at not being histrionic, in her refusals, at being studiedly ambiguous.” —Tom Holland (47:29)
  • Quote: “It is, as your majesty is not unaware, rather characteristic of my nature not to say in words as much as I think in my mind.” —Elizabeth to Edward VI, read by Dominic (52:11)

8. Surviving the Seymour Scandal

• Tower of London Interrogations:
  • When Seymour is arrested for treason, Elizabeth and her closest attendants are interrogated. Elizabeth skillfully avoids incriminating herself, demonstrating early political shrewdness (49:26–50:58).
  • Quote: “Her interrogators cannot pin anything on her. They can’t show that she was plotting behind Edward’s back...” —Tom Holland (50:58)
• Reputation Cleansed, Power Consolidated: By September 1550, Elizabeth is a major landowner and has recovered her reputation, admired by Protestants and positioned, once again, as an heir (53:57).

9. Dynastic Tensions and the Queen Jane Crisis

• Edward VI’s Death and Succession Manipulation:
  • Edward’s attempt to exclude both Mary and Elizabeth from succession in favor of Protestant Lady Jane Grey—ultimately unsuccessful due to Mary’s popularity (55:23–57:59).
• Elizabeth’s Tactical Caution: Elizabeth keeps a low profile during the crisis, neither embracing nor resisting, helped by her studied ambiguity (57:59).
  • Quote: “She has been keeping a very low profile... She doesn’t want to kind of, you know, stake all her chips until she knows exactly how things are going to play out.” —Dominic Sandbrook (57:59–58:17)
• Placed Back in the Line of Succession: With Mary’s triumph, Elizabeth is restored as the heir, but her Protestant faith and popularity make her a target in Mary’s Catholic regime (58:34).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Elizabeth’s resilience and ambiguity:

  • “She is very, very good at playing a dead bat... at being studiedly ambiguous. And it’s just as well, because early in 1549, it all goes tits up for Thomas Seymour.” —Tom Holland (47:29–48:22)

• On the contrast between Elizabeth and Mary, Queen of Scots:

  • “The thing that marks [Elizabeth] out is that she always has that kind of sliver of ice and that very political brain... which means she doesn’t make mistakes.” —Dominic Sandbrook (46:45–47:29)

• On the trauma of Elizabeth’s childhood:

  • “A child who’s had a very disruptive and traumatic beginning to their life is bound to want to find maternal figures to whom they can cling for affection.” —Dominic Sandbrook (13:44)

• On the relentless deaths in Elizabeth’s life:

  • “Mother, father and lost two stepmothers to childbirth.” —Tom Holland (40:39–40:42)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Lady Bryan’s letter and Elizabeth’s loss of status: 02:43–06:15
• Mary and Elizabeth’s relationship after Anne’s execution: 08:56–09:43
• Precocious Elizabeth’s famous retort about her change in status: 10:03
• Introduction and significance of Kate Champernown: 13:44–16:45
• Catherine Parr’s influence and stepmother role: 20:32–24:34
• Elizabeth’s translation gifts and humanist education: 25:43–26:54
• The Seymour household and scandal: 35:47–39:22
• Catherine Parr’s death: 39:45–39:52
• Thomas Seymour’s arrest, interrogations, and Elizabeth’s evasion: 48:22–51:48
• Elizabeth consolidates property and power: 53:57–55:23
• Edward VI’s death, Jane Grey’s brief reign, and Mary’s triumph: 55:23–58:34
• Elizabeth’s return to proximity of succession (foreshadowing trouble with Mary): 58:34–end

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Conclusion

This episode powerfully illustrates how the turbulence, betrayals, and losses of Elizabeth’s youth forged a survivor deeply wary of trust and skilled in political self-preservation. Tom and Dominic highlight both the stark dangers of Tudor court life and Elizabeth’s remarkable adaptability—a blend of trauma, intellect, and calculated ambiguity that would inform her legendary rule. Their lively and insightful storytelling continues in the next part, promising more drama as Elizabeth faces the deadly courts of her half-sister, Mary.

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For further exploration:

• Previous related episodes: Lady Jane Grey (Ep 293, 294), Mary, Queen of Scots series
• Next episode: Elizabeth and the Tower—her perilous years during Mary’s reign

Transcript

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Thank you for listening to the Rest is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series and membership of our much loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club that is thereestishistory.com.

[Tom Holland]

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[Tom Holland]

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[Dominic Sandbrook]

History has always been a story of power. Who seeks it, who seizes it, and how easily it can all slip away.

[Tom Holland]

The Caesars, the caliphs, the tsars, they conquered vast swathes of the world. They proclaimed themselves the favorites of the gods, and yet their empires crumbled away. It is easier to conquer than it is to control.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

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[Tom Holland]

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[Dominic Sandbrook]

Visit hive.com to find out more. Subject to survey and suitability. Hive compatible with selected technology. Now, as my Lady Elizabeth is put from that degree she was in and what degree she is at now, I know not by hearsay. I know not how to order her or myself, or her women or grooms. I beg you to be good Lord to her and hers and that she may have raiment for she has neither gown nor kirtle, nor petticoat, nor linen for smocks, nor kerchiefs, sleeves, rails, bodices, handkerchiefs, mufflers, nor caps. So we'll discover who that was in a couple of moments.

[Tom Holland]

Was it Mrs. Thatcher?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

No, it definitely was not. But these are very, very dark days for the infant Elizabeth I, as she will become. She's not yet three years old, but she doesn't have enough mufflers. There's no kerchiefs, there's no kirtle, there's no gown, there's no bodice.

[Tom Holland]

And there's no mummy.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

There's no mummy. This is a terrible, terrible scene. So if you listen to our previous episode. Well, if you didn't listen to our previous episode, what are you doing? But if you listen to our previous episode and recall it, you will know that Elizabeth's father, Henry viii, has severed the head of her mother, Anne Boleyn, because he's fed up with her being a bit of a nag and also fed up with her not giving him a son. And he is very keen to marry his new lady friend, the excitingly boring Jane Seymour. So Anne is out, Mummy is dead, and we ended last time by saying, what will this mean for Elizabeth I? And how will she fare in the snake pit of Henry's court? And now we will find out. And the first bit of bad news. No handkerchiefs.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So, Tom, let's put people out of their misery. That was not Margaret Thatcher, that was Lady Brian. Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

Which is a great name, I think.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And Lady Brian is the sort of Mary Poppins.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. So she's in her 60s. She's actually Elizabeth's great aunt. And so she was the obvious choice to serve Elizabeth as her lady mistress, as it was named, which is, as you said, a kind of very posh Mary Poppins. And Lady Brian is facing up to the fact that Elizabeth, who previously had been so fated, had been so, so privileged. Now suddenly, all that privilege seems to have gone. And poor Elizabeth, you know, not yet four, is kind of immersed in, effectively, a very dark fairy tale. So she's no longer the heir to the throne. She's now officially proclaimed a bastard. She's no longer a princess, she's just the Lady Elizabeth. Henry VIII has ordered that she be kept from his sight. So she had been at Greenwich palace when her mother was executed. She's been sent away. Henry doesn't want her there. And Henry's also ordered that her household be cut back. And then on top of that, there's this further cruelty. So to quote David Starkey in his book Apprenticeship, the shower of lovely clothes which Anne Boleyn had lavished on her daughter suddenly dried up. And in fact, as Starkey points out, this wasn't conscious cruelty on Henry's part, but it was still neglect. It's still expressive of the fact that he's not really bothered about Elizabeth anymore. And definitely Henry has his mind on other things than worrying about his baby daughter. Right.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Jane Seymour, specifically. Right. Because just 10, 11 days after Anne Boleyn has been executed, he gets married to Jane Seymour.

[Tom Holland]

He does. And he sails with her down the Thames to Greenwich, which is, of course, the palace where Anne had been arrested. And Jane, who had been the lady in waiting to Anne, now presides in Greenwich as queen. Henry also has another issue on his mind, which is what to do with his elder daughter, Mary, who has been a permanent source of annoyance to him ever since he got rid of Mary's mother, Catherine of Aragon. Mary, by now is 20. She remains devoted to the memory of her mother, who'd been unceremoniously dumped by Henry. For Anne Boleyn, she is devoted to not just the memory of her mother, who's dead by now, but also to the faith of her mother, traditional Catholic faith. And so she's absolutely obdurate in her refusal to accept that Henry might be the head of the Church of England rather than the Pope. And this has been the sticking point between Henry and Mary ever since Henry's supremacy over the Church of England was announced. But now, in the wake of Anne Boleyn's death, she does kind of briefly waver. And I think in part because Jane, unlike Anne, shows Mary great favor. She's very kind to her.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, I mean, we said Jane was boring. Jane is a very nice person, isn't she?

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, I think so.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I applaud Jane for this.

[Tom Holland]

And I think also Mary must be missing her father. I mean, she hasn't seen him for years. You know, he's basically banished her. Cause she's been so annoying. And so Henry senses his opportunity to finally get Mary to submit. And so he sends down a party of peers and they ride down to see Mary in Hertfordshire and they convince her to yield. And they tell her if she was their daughter, they would beat her and knock her head so violently against the wall that they would make it as soft as baked app. And it has to be said, you know, there's quite a lot of violence being threatened against Mary.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, I mean, imagine that if you're a 20 year old girl and all these blokes in gilets turn up and start saying, they're gonna splash your head against the wall.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. Anyway, finally she submits. She signs the articles that acknowledge Henry as head of the English Church. And of course, this is a surrender that also requires her to acknowledge that her mother's marriage to her father had been incestuous and unlawful. And it's really the one moment in her life when she buckles, when she doesn't stick to her principles. So Nicola Tallis in her book on young Elizabeth, writes she would never forgive herself for what she believed to be the ultimate betrayal of her mother's memory. And I think in the long run, actually it serves just to make her even more determined to uphold her principles.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. Now, in the last episode, I revealed myself as though not an admirer of Mary's ideological position, a great admirer of Mary as a person. And actually she now behaves very nicely to Elizabeth, doesn't she? Because she and Elizabeth are now equal. Because Elizabeth has been declared a bastard as well. And Mary turns out to be a very nice sister, older sister for Elizabeth. So people always think of them as daggers drawn, but that's not entirely the case.

[Tom Holland]

No. So she says, from this point on, I shall never call her by other name than sister. No longer is she that little bastard she's now her sister. And as you say, she's very loving. She gives Elizabeth all kinds of toys, plays with her, all kinds of things like that. And she even, amazingly, brings herself to pray for the soul of Anne Boleyn.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That's pretty magnanimous given how Anne Boleyn had treated her.

[Tom Holland]

That really is, yeah. So again, to quote David Starkey on Mary, he says that she was tender hearted to excess when issues of principle were not involved. Like me, I thought that you were flinty hearted even when issues of principle weren't involved.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

No, I think actually I'm a very sentimental person.

[Tom Holland]

Do you?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Okay, go on, continue.

[Tom Holland]

So Elizabeth, so what about her? She's a very precocious little girl, but also, I think, profoundly unsettled. Must be in a state of some bewilderment because she is aware of her change in circumstances. So there's this comment she makes to the man who's essentially responsible for her security. And she says, why, Governor, how happit yesterday Lady Princess and to day, but Lady Elizabeth. And so at some point, obviously she is told about what has happened to her mother. We don't know when. And as far as we can tell from our extant sources, she never really mentions Anne's name, and I think it's clear why she doesn't, because her claim to the throne is massively not helped by the fact that her. Her mother had her head chopped off for treason. She clearly does hold Anne's memory in her heart because as queen, she will surround herself with any number of Boleyn relatives. And she owns this locket ring made of mother of pearl and studded with diamonds and rubies. And when she opened it, it revealed paired miniature portraits, so one of herself and one of Anne. So clearly the memory of Anne does matter to her. But the fact she doesn't talk about it perhaps may be expressive of a kind of buried trauma as well as of kind of political sense.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

How much would she genuinely remember of Anne, though?

[Tom Holland]

I don't think she would remember anything. But I think the notion that her mother had been executed by her father must be a kind of deep psychic wound. I can't believe it would have been anything other than that.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Fair enough.

[Tom Holland]

People who are interested in exploring the nuances of it. Tracy Borman's book, Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth is really, really good on, on the whole subject.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Let's get to the really important issue, which is the lack of handkerchiefs.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Lady Bryan, Lady Brian has complained, no girdle, no bodice. That's crucial lack is that ever addressed.

[Tom Holland]

It is. So Elizabeth's clothing allowance is upgraded, she gets her kerchiefs and kirtles and all that kind of thing. But I think that despite that, there's no question that she is now growing up conscious of being second best to her elder sister, Mary, because Jane Seymour, you know, really fusses over Mary, does her best to make her feel happy, but pretty much ignores Elizabeth. And again, you can see why. I mean, just as Mary had been a reminder to Anne Boleyn of Henry's first wife, so Elizabeth is a reminder to Jane Seymour of his second wife. So you can understand the psychology of it. And then on 12 October 1547, Elizabeth becomes third best, because that is when Jane gives Henry a son. And although Jane dies two weeks later, this son Edward survives. And this means at last, Henry has his male heir. And it also means for Elizabeth that she loses the services of Lady Bryan, which is very sad because she is now assigned as lady mistress to the young prince because she's the best lady mistress in the business, and so obviously the young prince must have her. But I think again, this must have been a blow to Elizabeth because clearly Lady Brian had kind of filled the maternal void left by Anne's execution. And Elizabeth, by this point, I mean, she's only just four. You know, she's lost her mother, who she presumably barely remembers, and now she's lost her mother substitute. And again, I don't think it's over psychologizing to see that this must have had an impact on Elizabeth, because from this point on, she always forms very, very intense relationships with her personal attendants and hugs them very close to her. And once she's decided that an attendant is loyal to her, she will basically never let her go.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. Even great characters in history are human beings first and foremost. And a child who's had a very disruptive and traumatic beginning to their life is bound to want to find maternal figures to whom they can cling for affection. And that's the case, isn't it, with the very first of these? So Lady Brian has gone, and there's a series of governesses. The first one has the splendid sort of American style name of Catherine Champernown. Is that right? I mean, what name is that?

[Tom Holland]

Kate.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, Kate Champernown.

[Tom Holland]

She will stick with Elizabeth up to her death decades in the future. So people who've watched Blackadder.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

To the degree that anyone is nursey in Blackadder, Kate is so queen. Elizabeth in Blackadder is very spoiled, you know, schoolgirl.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And nursey is kind of absolute dimwit. Tis but the twinkling of a toe, since you could say nothing but Lizzie go plop, plop. Lizzy go plop, plop. So she's a kind of idiot in Blackadder. It has to be said that Kate Champernown is absolutely not an idiot.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

She's an amazing woman. She's a great scholar, she's a humanist, she's an evangelical. And she's probably the person who, in her life, I would guess, Elizabeth loves more than anyone else. And Elizabeth says of Kate, she hath taken great labor and pain in bringing of me up in love and honesty. So, you know, that's a fine tribute. But I think credit is also due to Elizabeth herself, because it is already becoming apparent, you know, when she's still quite young, that she's really very, very smart. And there were specialists in education who worried that Kate was actually pushing Elizabeth too far. And one of these people was a man who wasn't just England's foremost Greek scholar, but was also the greatest educationalist in the country. And this is a guy called Roger Ascham, who, again, like Kate, is an evangelical. So there's a kind of sense that humanist scholarship, evangelical beliefs, devotion to education, it's part of the swirl that Elizabeth is in. But Ascham thinks, oh, you know, we mustn't hurry this, we mustn't push it too far. But actually, on this occasion, he's wrong, because Elizabeth really flourishes under Kate's educational regime to the degree that in December 1539, one of Henry's courtiers comes to Hatfield, where Elizabeth is based, to pay a courtesy call. She's six years old at this time. He talks to her and he's completely stunned by what he finds. And he reports back to Henry. If she be no more educated than she now appeareth to be, she will prove of no less honour and womanhood than she'll be seen her father's daughter. So, in other words, you know, she's a massive chip off the old block.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And actually, this courtier says she's as smart as a woman of 40 years old, so very impressive. And from this point on, you know, Henry is sufficiently intrigued that he wants regular updates on Elizabeth's progress. And this isn't just her progress as a scholar, but also her abilities as a musician, which matters to Henry a lot. You know, can she dance, can she sew, is she good at riding, can she hawk? And actually, she's good at all these things.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I mean, this is one thing about the Tudors, that perhaps because they're ubiquitous and because they're always the subject of kind of Channel 5 documentaries and stuff, therefore people are a little bit sick of them. Sort of manful for man, woman for woman, they are extremely impressive. They are surely the most proficient and impressive dynasty in English history. I mean, the reason they've got the throne as usurpers as Parvenus is because they are very canny, bright, talented, ambitious, driven people. You know, the Tudors don't produce a wastrel.

[Tom Holland]

No. And they just seem to be good at everything.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

Elizabeth sounds an absolute prodigy, but clearly people are amazingly impressed by her. And Henry is sufficiently impressed that by 1543, he's decided, okay, I'm going to rehabilitate her. You know, I like the sound of her. She sounds like she might be a credit to me. And this is a really key moment in Elizabeth's life because, you know, for as long as she can remember, Henry has been this distant, terrifying figure, the man who had executed her mother. She hadn't seen him. She's been literally banished from his presence. And of course, she's also aware that it's due to her father's ruling that she's inferior in rank to Mary as well as to Edward. And I think also something else that must be slightly destabilizing to Elizabeth emotionally, but also complicate her attitude to Henry is the fact that he just keeps burning through stepmothers. So Jane dies, then he marries Anna Cleves decides he doesn't want her and dumps her. Then he marries Catherine Howard and Catherine Howard ends up having her head chopped off on charges of adultery, just as Anne had done. So I think that must be very traumatic for Elizabeth. But fortunately for her, once Henry allows her back into his life, she does impress him. He does think this girl is really quite something. And I think partly that's because she's very smart, but it's also because she really looks like him. You know, she's got auburn hair, she's got fair skin. I mean, fortunately, she's not enormously fat, which would have been. But she looks like a Tudor, you know, she, she is her father's daughter.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

She's very clearly been welcomed back into the fold, as has Mary. So when he marries Catherine Parr, so that's wedding number six. All three of the children are there, Edward, Mary and Elizabeth. Yeah, and she's still a bastard. Right. I mean, Henry has not. Will never withdraw that.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. So this act of Parliament establishes that Edward will succeed him. If Edward has no children, then Mary will become Queen, and if Mary then dies without children, then Elizabeth will become queen, but with kind of absolute typical inconsistency. Henry does not repeal the Acts of Bastardy. So this is going to be an issue for both Mary and Elizabeth throughout their reigns, essentially. But I think at the time, the fact that Elizabeth has been reinstated in the line of succession, she sees it as a mark of Henry's love for her. And people may wonder, well, what is Elizabeth's attitude to Henry, this guy who had killed her mother? So David Starkey puts it, her memory of her father, formed in these few years of the mid-1540s, was a benign one for Elizabeth. He was not a wife murdering monster, but a loving parent, a formidable ruler and model to which she aspired. And I think that's largely true, but I think it must also obviously be seasoned with a certain sense of dreadful. But you can dread someone and still want their, their approval, totally crave their approval.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I mean, even when he's in his sort of fat phase, he's still a very magnetic and charismatic personality. And a little girl we're talking about when she's 8, 9, 10 or something, you know, he's the King, he's the. The son around whom everybody else revolves. Of course, she'd be drawn to him and impressed and she'd be, if nothing else, awed by his magnificence and by the fear that he inspires in other people.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. So Henry's definitely influenced, but I think a much bigger influence on Elizabeth is her new stepmother, Catherine Parr. So the new queen, who a bit like Anne Boleyn or Jane Seymour, not from a tremendously distinguished background, she's the daughter of a knight from Cumbria. But she's clever, she's very cultured, very sexy, even though she's in her early 30s, with apologies to women who are.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

In their early 30s, even though Tom.

[Tom Holland]

Even though I'm repeating the standards of the age, early 30s was quite old by Tudor's standards. She's also an evangelical, so that's a slight issue because by this point, Henry is kind of reverting to pretty much a Catholic identity. But that's fine. Catherine keeps that secret. But there's another thing that she also keeps secret, which is that she is in love with another man. And this other man is the brother of, of Henry's late wife, Jane Seymour, Thomas Seymour. And obviously Catherine Parr does not need to be told that this is a very dangerous thing for any queen to be involved with. And all the more so because Thomas Seymour is very charismatic, very good looking. So he's described as being fierce in courage, courtly in fashion, in personage, stately. He has an astonishingly long beard and of course also he is not morbidly obese and he doesn't have a weeping sore on his leg, both of which attributes Henry by this point, does have. But still, there's no way that Catherine is going to carry on with Thomas Seymour. So she encourages him to go off to war in France, where he fights very bravely with Henry in a campaign that culminates in the capture of Boulogne. And meanwhile, back in England, Catherine is ruling as regent, which she does very well, rather as Catherine of Aragon had done all those decades before. And again, this must be quite a formative influence, I think, on both Mary and Elizabeth, because it's a demonstration that women can govern the kingdom effectively and well. And that must serve as a kind of inspiration for them, I think, later in life. Yeah. And Elizabeth particularly ends up devoted to Catherine, who takes her duties as stepmother very seriously.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Catherine is an impressive person. She's smart and she's, you know, poised, but she's also canny. I mean, the whole thing with Thomas Seymour. She doesn't make the mistake that Katherine Howard made, for example.

[Tom Holland]

She's also very stylish. I mean, like Anne Boleyn, she loves her fashion. And just as Anne Boleyn had done, she understands that a queen has to look like a queen. And so I think, all in all, she becomes a huge influence on Elizabeth, who she keeps fixing her attentions on would be stepmothers, and they keep vanishing. And now she feels, well, at last, I've got one that, you know, that's a keeper. And this matters because Catherine becomes stepmother at a crucial point, point in Elizabeth's intellectual development. And you said Catherine Parr is a very kind of smart woman. She takes a great interest in Elizabeth's education because by this point, Elizabeth has outgrown Kate's ability to teach her. Unfortunately, this doesn't matter because Elizabeth, by this point, is growing up alongside her younger brother, Edward. And because Edward is going to become a king, inevitably, he has the best teachers in the country at his service. And so Catherine convinces Henry that Elizabeth should have use of these teachers as well. Edward is smart, he's a Tudor, but Elizabeth is much smarter. Everyone recognizes that. And so by the time she's 10, she's the focus of this kind of really brilliant circle. It's characterized by humanist scholarship and by evangelical religion. So kind of what we might start to call Protestantism. And the key figure is a guy called William Grindle, who is a young scholar from St. John's Cambridge, and he teaches both Latin and Greek. And the emphasis on Greek is very, very of the moment. So Henry only had the most rudimentary Greek. Mary had no Greek. Elizabeth is getting the kind of. The latest in educational fashion.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And Elizabeth develops a profound emotional as well as intellectual bond with Grindle. And I think it intensifies her sense of loyalty to Catherine as well, because it's Catherine who seems to have found her Grindle to be her teacher. There's further kind of emotional churn, because listeners to our previous episode may remember that Anne Boleyn had as her private chaplain a man called Matthew Parker. And in her last interview with him, before she got taken to the Tower, she had asked Matthew Parker to look out for Elizabeth. And this is what Matthew Parker is now doing. He's coming and giving sermons to Elizabeth and instructing her and all kinds of things. So that is, I think, intensifying. What must for Elizabeth be a very emotional as well as intellectual sense of loyalties. That it is tied up with her mother, it's tied up with Catherine Parr. Her stepmother. There's kind of love as well as religion and education as part of the swirl.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So you don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that Elizabeth grows up a strong believer in the newly fashionable, let's just call it Protestantism.

[Tom Holland]

I think so. And I think the big influence on her is Catherine Parr.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Okay, interesting.

[Tom Holland]

And Catherine Parr, she's from a generation where a kind of hard Protestant identity hasn't yet evolved, but that's clearly the direction of travel. And I think you can see how this is affecting Elizabeth emotionally from two New Year gifts that she makes. First, she makes and gives to Catherine Parr in 1545, and then the second, the following year, is to Henry himself. So the first, the one that she gives to the Queen, this is a translation from French of a poem by Marguerite of Navarre. And people may remember that Marguerite of Navarre had been the patron of Anne Boleyn, Elizabeth's mother. And it's very evangelical in tone. So again, that mingling of emotional loyalty with kind of proto Protestantism, it's all there. And then the second gift, the one that Elizabeth presents to Henry, this is a translation of Catherine's own prayers and meditations, which she'd written in English, and Elizabeth has translated into French, into Italian and into Latin. And at the point where she does this, she is 12 years old. So, you know, it's her first year of secondary school. I mean, it's unbelievably impressive.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

How standards have fallen, Tom.

[Tom Holland]

How standards have fallen. And what's more, she's embroidered the COVID so she's kind of. She's made the binding as well and embroidered it with Tudor roses. And she dedicates it to the most illustrious and most mighty king, Henry viii. Elizabeth, his Majesty's most humble daughter, wishes all happiness and begs his blessing. Wow. And this is tribute not just to her father, but to her stepmother as well. And so when Henry dies, which he does on the 28th of January, 1547, so that's a year after Elizabeth had made that gift. And he's succeeded by Edward vi, who by this point is nine years old. So still just a boy, to be fair to him.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He's very bright in his own right.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, he's very bright as well, but I think he's not as brilliant as Elizabeth is.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Okay.

[Tom Holland]

And so Elizabeth, she now turns to Catherine Parr to basically provide her with a home. And so a few weeks after Henry's died, Elizabeth moves to Chelsea, where the widowed Queen has moved into one of the Queen's Manor houses. It's very lovely spot. It's got pipe water, it's got cherry and peach trees, herb gardens, lots of, you know, hey, nonny, knowing all that kind of stuff. And with Elizabeth goes her beloved lady Mistress Kate, who is now, she's just got married, so she's now known as Kate Ashley or Astley. Elizabeth also has in her train her new cofferer, her kind of business manager, the guy who looks after her accounts. And this is a man called Thomas Parry. And we have lots of Welsh listeners who complain that we don't have enough Welsh figures, Welsh characters in our podcast. So I will read you the description that Starkey gives of Thomas Parry, that he was a fat, self satisfied Welshman.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That's great. So it's very clear what David Starkey thinks of Welshman from that quote.

[Tom Holland]

And also he's not very good at maths, so that doesn't make him a very competent cofferer.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So he's useless. He's fat, he's useless.

[Tom Holland]

But he is Welsh. So there's one positive. Oh, and also another positive from Elizabeth's point of view. You know, he's a Protestant.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And he's exceptionally loyal to her.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

You know, we like to do Welsh history every now and again, don't we? And we've done it now, so that's brilliant. We've done it for the year.

[Tom Holland]

Well, that's it for the year. Yeah. So Elizabeth, Kate, the fat, self satisfied Welshman, they're all hanging out with Catherine Parr in this gorgeous house in Chelsea. The vibe is very scholarly, it's very sober, it's very evangelical, and it's much more openly evangelical than it had been under Henry viii. Henry VIII hadn't really proved of kind of radical evangelical.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Holland]

But under Edward vi, the Reformation is being absolute turbocharged, you know. Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Get out of the whitewash. Yeah. Get rid of the saints. Come on the rude screens.

[Tom Holland]

Let's go for it. Yeah. But it has to be said that Catherine Parr's house isn't all God, it's not all ancient Greek. Because in the spring of 1547, so this is only a few months after the death of Henry viii, there is a completely bombshell development. Catherine Parr, Henry's widow, the late Queen, clandestinely marries her old flame, the long bearded uber lady, Thomas Seymour, the Mr.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Tickle of Tudor politics.

[Tom Holland]

The Mr. Tickle. And he by now has become a very, very big cheese because his brother Edward has become both the Duke of Somerset and the Lord Protector. And Thomas himself has become The Lord High Admiral, because of course, both of them are the uncles of the young King Edward vi. So for Thomas Seymour to marry a late queen, it's a punchy thing to do because, you know, he's massively punching above his weight there. And so when the news breaks, there is outrage at court. Mary, Elizabeth's elder sister, is outraged, breaks off relations with her stepmother, completely demands that Elizabeth do the same, but Elizabeth doesn't. And the consequences of this. You called Thomas Seymour Mr. Tickle? Well, let's say that the consequence of this is that the tickle hands can start tickling.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. Well, come back after the break to find out what happens with Thomas Seymour's busy hands. This episode is brought to you by Uber. Now, do you know that feeling when someone shows up for you when you need it most?

[Tom Holland]

We all need that sometimes and Uber knows it.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

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[Tom Holland]

Like for your long distance friends, bringing soup when they're sick, sending flowers when they're down.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

When it really matters, whatever it is, you show up where there's a will.

[Tom Holland]

We're on our way. Uber, on our way. Download the app today.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Hello. Welcome back to the Rest Is History. So we are in England in 1548. We are a year in to the reign of the ultra Protestant, very precocious Edward vi. And specifically, we are in Seymour Place, which is the home of Edward's uncle, Thomas Seymour, who, you may remember, has married Edward's stepmother, Catherine Parr, the widow of Henry viii. And Catherine Parr is pregnant. And here we are, all sweetness and light, because her stepdaughter, the teenage lady Elizabeth, 14 years old, has just arrived at the house, having been away for the festive season. So there's another girl there actually who we've had on the Rest Is History before, who's another very clever girl, another girl with aristocratic lineage, another girl who loves a bit of Latin and a bit of Greek and loves Protestantism. And this is somebody called Lady Jane Grey, who's only 11 years old.

[Tom Holland]

She's 11 years old and she's Thomas Seymour's ward and she's Elizabeth's cousin. And as you said, Dominic, we did a couple of episodes on Lady Jane Grey and people who want to listen to those episodes, they are 293 and 294. Now, Dominic, you said that all is sweetness and light at Seymour Place in London. I'm not actually sure that's quite true.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It's just a figure of speech, Tom. I'M just setting the scene. Sometimes there's tears behind the smiles.

[Tom Holland]

Well, I mean, you know, at Christmas, there are always a dark undertow.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

So, for starters, Elizabeth is yet again in a state of bereavement because William Grindle, her beloved teacher, had died a few weeks before. It's not all bad, because just a few days before arriving at Seymour Place, she'd received a letter from Grindle's own teacher, the great educationalist Roger Ascham, offering to take Grindel's Place. And Elizabeth completely leaps at the chance. I mean, it's an amazing opportunity for her because Asham is the most famous, the most brilliant scholar in England, and Ashen promises that he will finesse Elizabeth's education, but also that he will look out for her. So he writes, I shall think it my greatest happiness if the time ever comes when my services can be of use to you. And I think these words would have had great resonance for Elizabeth, because actually, her circumstances in Seymour Place, no matter how devoted she is to Catherine Parr, her stepmother, are actually not easy at all. So, firstly, you mentioned Catherine's pregnant. It's the first time she's been pregnant. I think this is probably a bit destabilizing for an orphaned girl who, you know, up to this point had been the sole focus of her stepmother's attentions.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And perhaps worries about being supplanted yet again.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, I think so. But that, Dominic, is not the main reason why there is an atmosphere in Seymour Place. The main reason is because of the long, bearded, ludicrously ambitious top lad, Thomas Seymour. So Thomas Seymour is the younger brother of the Duke of Somerset, who's the Lord Protector, and he's. He's resentful of this. It's kind of classic, kind of Prince Harry dynamic. Right. You know, resentful of the elder brother, wants him out the way, he's kind of on manoeuvres, plotting to try and supplant his elder brother. So maybe there's a kind of slight degree of mood of anxiety in Seymour Place for that reason, but there's a much more immediate personal reason for Elizabeth to be uncomfortable in Thomas Seymour's presence. And that is basically that for the past few months, Thomas Seymour has had the key to Elizabeth's bedroom. And basically every morning, he's got into the habit of walking into her bedroom. And it's reported later that if Elizabeth was up and in the process of getting dressed, he would come up and strike her upon the back or on the buttocks.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

If she was still in bed, he'd pull back the curtains, you know, that veil her, the four poster beds, as though he would come at her and Elizabeth would shrink back, cower beneath the sheets. On one occasion, it's reported, he tries to force a kiss. Kate goes and confronts him about this and he shows no kind of embarrassment about this, but instead explodes in rage. I will tell my Lord Protector how I am slandered and I will not leave off for I mean no evil. I can do what I like.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, just a friendly kiss, just a bit of fun. Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

People may want to. Catherine, you know, is she becoming suspicious? I think she is to a degree. But he does not rein in his behavior at all. And actually it all gets a bit weird with Thomas, Seymour and Catherine and Elizabeth. So there's one very bizarre occasion when Catherine and Elizabeth are out walking in the garden and Thomas surprises them and he cuts Elizabeth's gown. And I quote in a hundred pieces. What's kind of more bizarre still is that according to Elizabeth, the Queen held her while the Lord Admiral cut it. So it's quite odd, isn't it?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That is pretty weird. What's Catherine Parr thinking during all this?

[Tom Holland]

One theory is that maybe it was a bet, bit of fun. I think Catherine wants to believe that, that it's just innocent fun, but I think that in the buildup to, you know, the Christmas break, I think she's clearly hoping that if Elizabeth goes away, maybe when she comes back everything will be sorted out and Thomas Seymour will be keeping his hands in his pockets. The problem is that's not what happens. So the moment Elizabeth is back, Seymour is up to his old tricks, coming to her bedroom each morning in his nightgown, bare legged in his slippers. And Elizabeth by now has developed a strategy which is that if he bursts in on her, she reaches for a book and puts her nose in the book.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. Hoping that the sight of some Greek verses or something will keep him at bay. Yeah, exactly.

[Tom Holland]

Cat. She upgrades Seymour again. Again, it has no effect. And then that spring, the crisis point, which was kind of always going to arrive, does finally arrive because Catherine and again, to quote, came suddenly upon them where they were all alone, he having her in his arms.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He having her in his arms is ambiguous though, isn't it? Because they're alone together, you know, in an embrace. Is that voluntary or is that involuntary? It's not clear.

[Tom Holland]

It's unclear. And I think it's unclear to Catherine.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right.

[Tom Holland]

And she is very heavily pregnant by this point and obviously incredibly upset. And I think that Perhaps she fears the worst, that Elizabeth has been complicit in this. And so she sends Elizabeth away. Elizabeth goes to a place called Cheshunt in Hertfordshire and there she stays with Kate Astley's sister and her husband, who's a guy called Sir Anthony Denny. And the salient thing about Sir Anthony Denny, the one thing that everybody knows about him and why his service has been so valued by Henry viii, is that he's a courtier chiefly celebrated for his ability to, to keep secret. And obviously both Elizabeth and Catherine are paranoid. The gossip may leak that the story may break all that summer. They're kind of waiting really for the rumours to spread. And actually they seem not to. And that's a source of great relief to both of them. And Elizabeth and Catherine are writing regularly to each other. They obviously want to repair their relationship. And Catherine writes to Elizabeth and says, you know, if I hear anything bad, any story slipping out, I will write immediately and let you know. Right. So clearly by this point they are back on side, their relationship has been patched up.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But then there's a twist, isn't there?

[Tom Holland]

There is a twist, yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I mean, you described Catherine of being pregnant. She goes off to one of the Seymour estates that summer, Sudeley Castle. Very nice castle, I have to say. And I have to say I commend it because when I was a boy they had to my mind a world leading adventure playground. So that's nice. Oh, anyway, she goes to Sudeley Castle, she gives birth to a girl called Mary, doesn't she, on the 30th of August.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, he's named after Mary Tudor, interestingly.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Oh, that's nice. And then she drops dead. Very sad. So that's the end of Catherine Parr.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, so it's very Jane Seymour. She dies of a postnatal fever and she's buried two days later in the church at Sudeley Castle. And it's notable, I learned for two firsts. So the first of these is that I learned this from Nicola Tallis book on the young Elizabeth. Catherine Parr is the only English queen to be buried on a private estate.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Okay.

[Tom Holland]

And I learned from David Starkey that her funeral was the first Protestant royal funeral. And that very, very devoutly Protestant ward of Sir Thomas Seymour, Lady Jane Grey, plays the role of chief mourner.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Oh, that's interesting. But for Elizabeth, this is another crushing blow. I mean, for somebody born into, you know what you might say, immense privilege and wealth, she's had a really bad run, hasn't she? Basically everybody that she's got close to, has died. Educationalists.

[Tom Holland]

Mother, father and lost two stepmothers to childbirth.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And again, you have to wonder what impact does this have on her long term attitude to the prospects of motherhood?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

Of course not to over psychologise it again.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Although one thing that does occur to me, thinking about Elizabeth's prospects. So Thomas Seymour, he's very dashing, isn't he? I mean, I know he's something of a Mr. Tickle, but he's very dashing. He's now a widower and he would be a bit of a catch, would he not? And Elizabeth is 15 years old and would be a catch in her own right. So is there some possibility that he might.

[Tom Holland]

Well, Thomas Seymour, I think, seems genuinely upset at the loss of his wife.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Okay.

[Tom Holland]

I think he genuinely loved Catherine and was distraught when she died. But you are right, the fact that she is now dead does mean that he is back on the market. And he must be looking at Elizabeth as a very nubile candidate. She is all the more on his mind because by this point he is massively on maneuvers looking to topple his brother, the protector. He has been very much playing the fun uncle with Edward vi. So his elder brother, the Duke of Somerset, is always coming with, you know, issues about problems in Scotland or tax or whatever. Thomas Seymour is turning up with, you know, gifts of money and amusingly, spiced cakes, all that, all that kind of thing.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Like what spice would that be? That would be so amusing.

[Tom Holland]

It would be fun. That's the point. It's fun.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Fun cinnamon.

[Tom Holland]

Some fun cinnamon. Exactly. And basically his plan is to seize control of the king physically and by doing that to force a change of government. And if he can marry Elizabeth, then obviously that would then consolidate his power. He'd be absolutely the power behind the throne. Elizabeth, meanwhile, has left Cheshunt where she was hanging out with the very discreet husband of Kate Anthony Denny. And she's gone back to Hatfield, her childhood home. And here for the first time, she presides over a residence as her own mistress. You know, she is now her own woman. And when she's traveling from Cheshunt to Hatfield, she's accompanied by members of Seymour's household, you know, servants of his. And one of them speaks to Kate Ashley, who is obviously riding with Elizabeth and passes on a message for Elizabeth from Thomas Seymour. I think it suggests that his conversation with Elizabeth may not have been just about ancient Greek, I suspect, which doesn't.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Reflect terribly well, I think, on Thomas Seymour.

[Tom Holland]

And also I don't think it Reflects very well on Kate that she's passed it on. And it has to be said that by this point she's behaving very inappropriately because people remember that she's been confronting Thomas Seymour when he was married to Catherine, but now Catherine's dead. Kate seems to have completely fallen for him. She seems to have had a bit of a crush on him and has decided that actually he'd be a great husband for Elizabeth. And so she's kind of endlessly saying to Elizabeth, I really think you should go for him. And meanwhile, Seymour has also been checking with Thomas Parry, the Welshman, for our Welsh listeners about the state of her finances.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

So he's asking how many persons she kept, what houses she had, what lands. And Thomas Parry, I'm afraid to say, like Kate has been completely seduced by Seymour's charisma, basically tells him everything. So essentially, the two people who Elizabeth most trusts, Kate and Parry, are both saying to her, go for it.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

Thomas Seymour himself is sending lewd messages about her buttocks. And so what is Elizabeth herself making of this? And I think looking at the evidence, there is a sense that she is actually tempted. Because one of the reasons why I think Kate does support Seymour's advances is that she has seen that Elizabeth dusk fancy Seymour. Right.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Because you said, I mean, it's important to stress he's very charismatic and good looking. Right.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. I mean, he's by all accounts a very, very attractive man. And Kate notes how sometimes she would blush when he was spoken of. You know, and it's not unknown for victims of sexual abuse to kind of fall for the person who's abusing them.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, or for teenage girls to have a crush on a not much older man. Right. I mean, not unknown.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. So to quote David Starkey on this, it was an initiation and a brutal one into the world of adult sexuality. Almost all the men that she subsequently loved or pretended to love resembled Seymour.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Interesting.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, it's very interesting as we will see as we carry this story on. And because of this, because there was an evident partiality on Elizabeth's part towards Seymour. There was gossip that she had surrendered to his advances. So that when Catherine Parr found Elizabeth in Seymour's arms, the implication was that, you know, Elizabeth had welcomed this. And there are some who say that she'd lost her virginity to him and there are others who say even that she'd had his child. There is no substantive evidence for any of this. And I think that the lack of privacy in Tudor households being what it Was, I think it's most improbable. But there's also another, I think, even more salient reason for rejecting these stories, and that is the evident steeliness, the self discipline which Elizabeth displays throughout the affair. It is a maturity that is astonishing, I think, in one so young, because she, unlike Kate, unlike Parry, actually unlike Thomas Seymour himself, completely understands the impossibility of her marrying him. And she sums it up completely bluntly, the council will not consent to it. Seymour's plan to marry her, it's not like a kind of private relationship. It touches directly on the affairs of state and there is no way that any number of vested interests will allow this marriage to go ahead. And so Elizabeth, knowing this and knowing that Seymour is essentially pushing it, has clearly come to an understanding that he's a very intemperate man and this represents a threat, not just to himself, but. But if she is caught up in his kind of web, to her as well.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Just a very quick observation. We've mentioned in the last episode that we did a series about Mary Queen of Scots in July, I think it was, this summer. Isn't this the massive contrast between these two characters who are so often opposed to each other? The Mary, Queen of Scots, again and again in this situation always goes with her heart. She makes poor political choices because she can never step back from her own desires, as it were. And Elizabeth, the thing that marks her out is that she always has that kind of sliver of ice and that very political brain, even when she's, what, 15 years old or whatever she is, she's thinking strategically and she's sensible and she's weighing up the odds and all of this kind of thing, which means she doesn't make mistakes.

[Tom Holland]

And also what you see in this business, perhaps for the first time, is a feature of her character that will run and run and run, which is that she never commits herself to anything. So when Kate presses Seymour's suit, she is non committal, according to one version. According to another, her refusal is absolute. But she is very, very good at playing a dead bat, at not being histrionic, in her refusals, at being studiedly ambiguous. And it's just as well, because early in 1549, it all goes tits up for Thomas seymour. So on the 16th of January, he breaks into the King's private apartments at Whitehall, and unfortunately for him, there's a dog sleeping outside Edward's door. And the dog starts barking at him. And so Thomas Seymour draws his sword and runs the dog through.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He's the Jeremy Thorpe of Tudor politics.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. Or like Anne of Denmark, James I's wife, who shot his favorite hunting dog.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That's right, yeah.

[Tom Holland]

There's quite a lot of dog murder going on, but this is, I think, is the first major example of it. And so Thomas Seymour then, oh, God, I've killed the King's dog. This isn't going well. And so he just runs. And then the next day, he pretends that nothing's happened, and he kind of saunters around and goes to Parliament and all this stuff, but he's been seen. And so by the evening, he is in the Tower of London for killing.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

The King's dog or because people think there's some more sinister design behind this.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, of course they think it's the more sinister design. He's been trying to break into the King's private apartments.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But for what purpose?

[Tom Holland]

It doesn't matter.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He didn't want to beat him on the buttocks and stuff.

[Tom Holland]

It doesn't matter. You are not allowed to break into the King's private apartments. I mean, obviously he's trying to abduct him. I think that's the assumption. And that is treason. And that's why he gets sent to the Tower.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right, okay.

[Tom Holland]

And then three days later, Kate Ashley and Thomas Parry are also taken to the Tower. So now Elizabeth is being drawn into the. The kind of. The vortex of the scandal.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, the whole gang. Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And unsurprisingly, when Elizabeth is informed that her two closest servants have been incarcerated, she was marvelously abashed and did weep very tenderly a long time. And her fears are for her servants, to whom she remains utterly loyal throughout this whole business, but also, of course, for herself, because she completely understands the mortal peril that she is now in. And what makes that peril even worse is that Kate and Thomas Parry both end up revealing to their interrogators the full details of Seymour's inappropriate behavior with her. So all the details that I've been, you know, quoting so far in this episode come from their testimony. And it's enough to get the interrogators to go and interview Elizabeth. And to repeat, she is just a teenage girl at this point, but she runs rings around her interrogators because she immediately acknowledges the truth of what Kate has revealed. I mean, she doesn't try to deny it. That would have been a very foolish move. She's even prepared to acknowledge that she liked Thomas Seymour, that she didn't absolutely detest his advances, but that she was only prepared to entertain them once the council had first granted its approval. And she said, enough that there is evidence that supports this claim. So, as a result, it is apparent that she had never been complicit in Seymour's plot.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right.

[Tom Holland]

And it's a brilliantly skillful performance from one so young. Her interrogators cannot pin anything on her. They can't show that she was plotting behind Edward's back to marry this man, that she was always operating within the set bounds of legality. And in due course, Kate and Thomas Parry are released. And though, to begin with, Elizabeth is not allowed to take them back into her service by September 1549, you know, they're back in her household. And I think the experience for her was a very salutary one, and it confirmed her in an understanding of how politics operates in the nature of men and their desires and their ambitions and the advantages of studied ambiguity that will never leave her. That will be features of her life, you know, her very long life, right the way up to the end.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And Thomas Seymour, he ends up on the chopping block, doesn't he? He's executed on Tower Hill in the spring of 1549. He does, but that ambiguity doesn't. She write to Edward VI and she says to him, it is, as your majesty is not unaware, rather characteristic of my nature, not to say in words as much as I think in my mind.

[Tom Holland]

That's the key, I think.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, but that again, I mean, the Mary Queen of Scots parallel. Mary Queen of Scots is unguarded, isn't she?

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. And Elizabeth isn't.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. There are always deep waters with Elizabeth, and she's just a brilliant politician and a brilliant strategist.

[Tom Holland]

So in the wake of Seymour's execution, she's got off. Nothing's been pinned on her. But she's aware that she has to tread very carefully now, and so that's what she does. She dresses very modestly in black and white. You know, she's inherited from Anne Boleyn a love of beautiful clothes, but for now, she plays the sober Protestant maid. And Edward is very impressed. You know, he's a very priggish Protestant by this point, and so he calls her sweet sister Temperance. He thinks she's great. She continues her studies under Roger Ascham, which she completes in 1550. So she's had the best education that anyone in Europe could have, basically. And she is increasingly cast by her admirers as a brilliantly educated woman and by Protestants as a paragon of Godly virtue. So is she a complete paragon? I mean, it has to be said that one feature of her character we haven't yet brought out, and that is that she is monumentally acquisitive. And again, you can understand that perhaps psychologically, someone who's led such an unstable life, she'd want resources that are her own and that she's not dependent upon anyone else to kind of access it. But, I mean, she does amazingly well. So by September 1550, which is when she takes legal possession of Hatfield, so this house that she's grown up in and, you know, it legally becomes her property, she's become the second largest landowner in the country. She declared at one stage that she couldn't even remember how many houses she had. So she's built up, I think, quite a power base for herself.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, the kind of.

[Tom Holland]

The blots on her reputation have been clean. She's admired by the Protestant wing of opinion that is identified with her brother, the King, and she's got financial wherewithal and, you know, land in England is always power. And this is just as well, because meanwhile, on the public stage, the Great Game of Thrones is continuing. So in January 1552, the Duke of Somerset, the erstwhile Lord Protector, he's been toppled, and then he follows his brother to the block and a new strong man emerges. And this is a guy called John Dudley, who is created the Earl of Northumberland. And this seems good news for Elizabeth. She gets on well with the Dudley family. One of Northumberland's sons, Robert Dudley, is a particular playmate of hers, a friend of hers. He's very handsome, dashing, charismatic man, and it is noted by contemporaries that he has a bit of a resemblance to Thomas Seymour. So there's something for listeners just to bear in mind, but all the while. So Elizabeth has basically kind of tied her fortunes to the Protestant wing, to her brother, to Northumberland, to Dudley, to people like that. But by the spring of 1553, it's becoming clear to those in the know that this might not have been a good bet, because Edward has fallen mortally ill. And Edward himself, we've been saying, you know, he's a very vehement Protestant. He sees it as his duty to ensure a godly successor, so a successor who will carry on his work of reformation. And the problem for Edward is that listeners will remember Henry's final Act of Succession, which had been passed in 1543, had prescribed that were Edward to die without having had children, and Edward is still way too young to have had children at this point, then he will be succeeded by Mary, and then, if Mary dies, by Elizabeth. But Edward is unwilling to countenance this, Mary is a Catholic. And Elizabeth, even though she's, you know, Protestant maid and all that, she is, as Edward tells his counselors, a bastard and sprang from an illegitimate bed. And so it is that in June 1553, he comes up with what he terms my device for the succession. And by its terms, both Mary and Elizabeth are disinherited and the crown is settled instead on their cousin, Lady Jane Grey, who is, of course, both Protestant and impeccably legitimate.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And of course, she has the backing, ultimately, of the Duke of Northumberland, the new kind of strongman of the regime, because his son Guildford, splendidly named son, has married her.

[Tom Holland]

There's more about Guilford and his comedy voice.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly.

[Tom Holland]

In our episodes on Lady Jane Grey. Yeah, and so basically he says, yeah, fine, okay, I'm in, I'm in on this. And he gets the council to back it. And so when Edward dies on 6 July, four days later, Northumberland, his allies on the council, proclaim Jane Queen. But it all goes horribly wrong. Mary refuses to accept her deposition, Dominic, on record, as being a big admirer of her. Pluck. Yeah, she shows tremendous pluck. And the vast mass of the English people back her. By 3rd August, the entire attempt to install Lady Jane Grey as queen has collapsed. Mary makes this triumphant entry into London. There are bells, there are bonfires, there are cheering crowds tossing their caps into the air, all of that. And by this point, Jane and Guildford have been sent to the Tower, and so too has Guildford's brother and Elizabeth's particular chum, Robert Dudley. So he's gone there. And on the 22nd of August, Robert Dudley's dad, the Earl of Northumberland, is beheaded for treason on Tower Hill. And he has recanted his Protestantism by this point, because, of course, there is now, in the form of Mary, a Catholic queen. But it doesn't help him. He still has his head chopped off, but it's a reminder that the age of the Protestant King, Edward VI is over and there is now a Catholic queen on the throne in the form of Mary.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And Elizabeth has sat this out, hasn't she? By and large, she has been keeping a very low profile at Hatfield House, basically waiting to see what happens. So, again, a sign of her, you know, she's. She's very canny. She doesn't want to kind of, you know, stake all her chips until she knows exactly how things are going to play out.

[Tom Holland]

I think also there's a sense that Mary's triumph is her triumph as well, because had Jane succeeded to the throne, then she would have been disinherited as well as Mary. And now for the first time since the execution of Anne Boleyn, she is the heir to the throne. As long as Mary doesn't have children.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, of course.

[Tom Holland]

But that, of course, is also a cause of danger for her because Mary as a Catholic queen is not going to want to be succeeded by a Protestant.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, of course.

[Tom Holland]

And so how this plays out we will find in our next episode. And you know, it's a drama of sibling rivalries that will feature for Elizabeth perils greater than any she's faced up to this point. And, you know, don't want to give away too much, but we will be revisiting the Tower of London.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So next time we'll be in the Tower of London with Elizabeth the first during the reign of her sister Mary. Now, if you want to listen to that and the rest of this series right away, if you remember, the rest is History Club. Of course you can. You could be listening to it right now instead of listening to me whittering on. However, if you'd like to join, you merely need to head to therestishistory.com and you'll get all kinds of wonderful treats and benefits as well. And on that bombshell, Tom, thank you very much. That was brilliant. Bye bye, everybody.

[Tom Holland]

Bye bye.

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