683. Washington: Hero of the Revolution (Part 1)

Summary

The Rest Is History, Ep. 683 – Washington: Hero of the Revolution (Part 1)

Hosts: Tom Holland & Dominic Sandbrook
Date: June 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode marks the launch of a new series commemorating the 250th anniversary of the American Revolution’s beginnings. Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook focus on George Washington—a man revered as the archetypal Founding Father, first President, and the general who preserved the American cause through its darkest days at Valley Forge. The discussion explores Washington’s character, the realities versus myths of the Revolution, and the pivotal winter of 1777–78 when the fate of independence hung in the balance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. American Exceptionalism & The Founding Fathers

• The episode begins with a reading from Ronald Reagan’s second inaugural address, emphasizing American exceptionalism and invoking historical figures and mythical moments of U.S. history.
  • “We raise our voices to the God who is the author of this most tender music... dedicated to the dream of freedom. God bless you and God bless America.” —Ronald Reagan, quoted by Tom, (03:37)
• Tom and Dominic acknowledge the almost mythic status of the Founding Fathers, yet maintain a wry, British distance.
  • “Obviously we are a patriotic British podcast, so we have to keep our distance from some of the flag of liberty and all that stuff.” —Tom Holland, (06:25)

2. Series Structure & Focus

• The series will cover four Founding Fathers: Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington—beginning with Washington.
  • Washington: military leadership and presidency
  • Franklin: transatlantic figure
  • Hamilton: duel and legacy
  • Jefferson: contradictions and intellect

3. Valley Forge: The Myth vs. Reality

• Valley Forge (winter 1777–78) has become a central mythic moment in American history, associated with hardship, leadership, and enduring patriotism.
  • The “Washington falls to his knees in the snow” trope is analyzed and debunked.
  • The British audience is reminded that the episode is much less known in the UK.
  • Notable quote on mythmaking:
    “Reagan tells a series of absolutely tremendous anecdotes about things that never happened.” —Dominic Sandbrook, (08:12)

4. Who Was George Washington?

• Background: Born to gentry in Virginia, height (6 ft+), powerful build, weak/breathy voice, terrible dental issues, immense discipline, and control of temper.
• Early Ambitions: Wanted to be an English country gentleman, admired Henry Fielding novels, keen horseman—grew up on a tobacco plantation dependent on slave labor.
  • “Washington is not actually as boring as you would think. He is a man of fierce passions and a hot temper, but he keeps these under rigid, inflexible control.” —Dominic, quoting Ron Chernow, (15:11)
• Anecdotes:
  • Famous “cherry tree” honesty story is pure fiction by Parson Weems. (13:07)
  • Hilarious story of Gouverneur Morris slapping Washington on the shoulder, met with an “icy stare" so terrifying, he'd never risk it again. (10:29–11:48)

5. Path to Revolution

• Seven Years’ War: Washington proved brave but felt slighted by the British, denied a royal commission, fueling future resentment.
• Colonial Grievances:
  • Britain's massive war debt led to new colonial taxes and tighter controls. Colonists bristled at Parliament's interference despite having been largely self-governing.
  • Washington’s personal financial struggles and land ambitions put him among the more militant rebels.
  • Washington’s opposition to British policy was as much practical and personal as ideological.
• “Washington is very much with the militants. ... He has money problems, like a lot of landowners do after the Seven Years War.” —Dominic, (19:58)

6. Washington Takes Command

• By 1775, fighting was underway; Washington was chosen to lead the new Continental Army for his experience, unifying presence, and non-controversial character.
  • ‘He is a unifier. He is a bit vanilla because he’s a bit boring and he doesn’t say anything. No one’s offended by him.’ —Dominic, (22:36)

7. The War & Valley Forge Hardship

• British strengths: navy, professional army, hired Hessians, but severe logistical challenges.

• Rebels benefitted from home ground, guerrilla tactics, and greater stake in the outcome.

• 1777: Philadelphia captured by the British; Washington’s army retreated to Valley Forge.

• Valley Forge conditions:

  • Little food or supplies, disease rampant, inadequate clothing, poor sanitation, demoralized troops.
  • Washington’s leadership was vital—insisted on sharing hardships, boosting morale, and organizing inoculation against smallpox.
  • 'His men have run out of supplies. ... seeing men without clothes to cover their nakedness, without blankets to lay on, without shoes, by which their marches might be traced by the blood from their feet, marching through frost and snow without a murmur.' —Dominic, quoting Washington, (31:58)
  • Diary entry from Dr. Albigence Waldo:
    “Poor food, hard lodging, cold weather, fatigue, nasty clothes, nasty cookery, vomit. ... I can't endure it. There comes a bowl of beef soup full of burnt leaves and dirt, sickish enough to make a Hector spew.” —(35:11)

• Mortality:

  • 2,000 died at Valley Forge—more than any battle—mostly from disease such as dysentery.
  • “More Americans died at Valley Forge than at any battle of the entire war.” —Dominic, (36:21)
  • Washington’s support for inoculation (proto-vaccination) against smallpox credited with saving many.

8. Demythologizing Washington

• Challenges the legends of Washington’s piety (kneeling in the snow), emphasizing his Anglican restraint and preference for dignity over displays of emotion or devotion.
  • Parson Weems again implicated as a creative storyteller.
  • “This story about him kneeling in the snow is absolutely fake. It was invented in 1800 after Washington’s death...” —Dominic, (41:21)

9. Internal Divisions & Social Diversity

• Not all colonists supported the rebellion; substantial loyalist/quasi-neutral populations.
• Washington’s relationship with the locals near Valley Forge was fraught—farmers often sold supplies to the higher-paying British.
  • “Washington does not think that selling to the highest bidder is the American way ... he says in letters, this business about selling to the highest bidder is a sign of the debasement of our national character...” —Dominic, (48:28)
• Camp diversity: included European volunteers (notably Lafayette), Black soldiers (freed from slavery in exchange for service), and, potentially, a number of camp followers and women (though the issue of camp prostitutes is sidestepped or perhaps omitted in sources due to Washington’s puritanical standards).

10. European Influence: Baron von Steuben’s Arrival

• Friedrich von Steuben—a Prussian officer, rumored to have left Prussia under “murky circumstances”—arrived to drill, professionalize, and instill discipline in the Continental Army.
  • Instigated military drills in French, translated by none other than Alexander Hamilton.
  • “Steuben’s drills actually became the instruction manual for the US army until, like, for decades, still influencing American military strategy right up to the Civil War.” —Dominic, (63:17)
  • Steuben’s flamboyant, charismatic presence provided a huge morale and skills boost at Valley Forge.

11. Turning Point: French Alliance

• In spring 1778, the news arrives: Benjamin Franklin has secured French recognition and alliance.
  • The arrival of French forces is a war-altering shift, putting Britain on the defensive globally.
  • Celebrations in camp—Washington “casts aside his dignity to play cricket with the junior officers.” (66:16)
  • From this point, American victory becomes more likely than not.

12. Aftermath & Washington’s Legacy

• Post-Valley Forge, the army is notably improved, British evacuate Philadelphia, and the focus of the war shifts south and overseas.

  • Washington’s postwar reputation rests on his self-control, public dignity, and willingness to relinquish power—echoing Roman virtues, notably Cincinnatus and Cato.
  • “He has played the Roman commander, he has played his hero, Cato, and it has absolutely worked.” —Dominic, (71:26)

• Washington is recognized as the “indispensable man” (Ken Burns, upcoming guest), revered for holding things together when other leaders might have failed.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Mythmaking:

  • “Reagan tells a series of absolutely tremendous anecdotes about things that never happened.” —Dominic, (08:12)

• On Washington’s Marble Quality:

  • “He is the most elusive figure in American history, more revered than truly loved. An impossibly stiff and inflexible figure composed of too much marble to be quite human.” —Dominic quoting Ron Chernow, (09:18)
  • “He is a unifier. He’s a bit vanilla because he’s a bit boring and he doesn’t say anything. No one’s offended by him.” —Dominic, (22:36)

• On Valley Forge Hardship:

  • “Their marches might be traced by the blood from their feet, marching through frost and snow without a murmur.” —George Washington, as quoted by Dominic, (31:58)
  • “More Americans died at Valley Forge than at any battle of the entire war.” —Dominic, (36:21)

• On Washington’s Leadership:

  • “He is brilliant at managing his men.” —Dominic, (38:08)
  • “In Washington’s case, the most extraordinary of the Founding Fathers, but also perhaps the most compromised.” —Tom, (07:11)

• On Washington’s Teeth:

  • “By the time he became president in 1789, for all that George III said he was the greatest man in the world, he had just one working tooth left...” —Dominic, (74:16)

• On Parliamentary Rights:

  • “Parliament as a body represents our entire British global family. And Parliament’s laws bind not just British subjects in Britain, but British subjects all over the world.” —Dominic, outlining the Loyalist perspective, (19:58)

• Camp Humor & Banter:

  • “If you can imagine a Dorset yokel doing Marilyn Monroe with massive hands...” —Dominic, imagining Washington’s accent, (14:05)
  • On Dr. Albigence Waldo’s name: “That’s just a Star Wars name, isn’t it?” —Tom, (35:18)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Description | Timestamp | |---------|-------------|-----------| | Opening & Series Theme | Launching 250th Rev. series; Reagan’s speech | 03:37–06:40 | | The Founding Fathers Overview | Who will be covered this series | 06:40–07:31 | | Valley Forge in Legend | Introducing the Valley Forge myth | 07:31–09:18 | | Washington’s Backstory | Upbringing, ambitions, and quirks | 09:18–15:11 | | Seven Years’ War & British Debt | Roots of colonial grievances | 15:52–18:43 | | Colonial Grievances & Militancy | Why the colonies rebelled | 18:43–22:22 | | Washington Takes Command | Role and leadership style | 22:22–23:38 | | War as Guerrilla Struggle | Practical pros and cons of both sides | 23:38–27:47 | | Retreat to Valley Forge | Conditions and morale before winter | 27:47–33:32 | | Valley Forge Hardship | Living conditions and deaths | 33:32–38:08 | | Debunking Myths | Myths of Washington’s piety/kneeling | 40:48–41:21 | | Racial and Social Diversity | Make-up of the army, foreign officers | 51:53–55:46 | | Baron von Steuben’s Arrival | Prussian discipline at Valley Forge | 59:05–64:14 | | French Alliance Changes the War | Diplomatic revolution | 65:54–66:38 | | Aftermath and Washington’s Legacy | Impact, myth, and why he’s essential | 69:26–74:16 |

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Tone, Style & Final Thoughts

Tom and Dominic maintain their characteristic wit, dry humor, and skepticism about national mythology while presenting rich, nuanced storytelling and expert historical analysis. They deftly blend the monumental with the mundane (Washington’s dental woes vs. Cincinnatus/Pater Patriae symbolism), and regularly challenge the American founding myths while explaining their enduring global appeal.

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What’s Next?

The next episode focuses on Benjamin Franklin’s diplomatic exploits in France, with subsequent deep-dives into Hamilton and Jefferson, plus interviews with Ken Burns and Conan O’Brien. For richer context, club members get bonus content and exclusive interviews.

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For listeners or readers new to the series, this episode clear-eyedly explores why Washington mattered, separates fact from legend, and reveals how contingency, hardship, and personality shaped the iconic leader and the American nation.

Transcript

[Dominic Sandbrook]

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[Tom Holland]

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[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, well, that was one very big change, Tom. But another tax change is upon us. And this is the advent of Making Tax Digital for income tax. And if you're at all concerned about it, this is where Lloyds come in, because they're here to help make that change much simpler for you with a useful HMRC recognized accounting tool that will help you stay in line with all the Making Tax Digital rules requirements.

[Tom Holland]

And the brilliant thing about this is that it is free for Lloyds business account customers. So when it is time to digitize your income tax, you can bank on Lloyds. Search Lloyds business accounts to find out more. This episode is brought to you by my favourite London Review of Books. William Here from Empire, briefly crossing the

[Dominic Sandbrook]

goal hanger network borders.

[Tom Holland]

In our journey to unpick the complexities of the past, it's clear that history is not a straight line. It's a vast, intricate and complex tapestry. To truly understand a political revolution or the fall of a dynasty, you have to build up the picture piece by piece. You need diary entries and poetry that capture the scale of emotions, the secret correspondence of a diplomat and the sharp, discerning insights of the era's great thinkers. And it's this art of the deep dive that the London Review of Books champions. They bring together the world's leading thinkers and interrogate a rich, rich range of topics through long form essays. Try three months of the LRB completely free. When you sign up today, subscribe at lrb.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

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[Tom Holland]

to try three months of the London Review of Books for free. Just do it. It's the most wonderful journal in the country and you will never regret it. This is a paid advertisement for BetterHelp.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

You know, we tend to think that summer stress belongs to our disrupted routines, crowded social calendars and the pressure to make every sunny day count. But even the ancient Greeks and Romans had their own fears about this summery time of year.

[Tom Holland]

They called this time the Dog Days because they linked the rise of Sirius, the dog star with fever, lethargy and madness.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

The Romans blamed dog shaped constellations but today we recognize summer stress for what it is. The strain of doing too much and the fear of doing too little.

[Tom Holland]

You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy, sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com restishistory that's better.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

H-E-L-P.com restishory.

[Tom Holland]

Oh, history is a journey. And as we continue our journey, we think of those who traveled before us and we see and hear again the echoes of our past. A general falls to his knees in the hard snow of Valley Forge. A lonely president paces the darkened halls and ponders his struggle to preserve the Union. The men of the Alamo call out encouragement to each other. A settler pushes west and sings a song. And the song echoes out forever and fills the unknowing air. It is the American sound. It is. Oh, hopeful, big hearted, idealistic, daring, decent and fair. That's our heritage. That's our song. We sing it still. We raise our voices to the God who is the author of this most tender music. And may he continue to hold us close as we fill the world with our sound in unity, affection and love. One people under God dedicated to the dream of freedom. God bless you and God bless America. So that absolute mush was obviously Ronald Reagan. Unmistakable tones there, delivering his second inaugural address on 21 January 1985. And Dominic, Ronald Reagan loved American history, didn't he? He loved the idea of American exceptionalism. He loved the idea of his country as a shining city on a hill. And clearly there is no better way to kick off our new series, which is marking the 250th anniversary of the colonial tax rebellion than with that great Hollywood actor turned two times president.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, you're right. Tom Reagan absolutely believed in America's special place in the world, didn't he? I don't think any president has ever really topped it. Yeah. Has drunk so deeply of the Kool Aid than Ronald Reagan. And so what better way to kick off?

[Tom Holland]

I mean, I said that was mush. I had to say that to reassure myself that I wasn't buying into the whole thing because obviously we are a patriotic British podcast.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

We are. Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

So we have to keep our distance from some of the.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

The flag of liberty and all of that stuff. Yeah, all of that.

[Tom Holland]

So we are going to be looking at four of the Founding fathers and in due course we are going to be looking at Benjamin Franklin and his extraordinary transatlantic career. So the sense in which he's British as well as American, we're going to be looking at the infamous duel between Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

As in the eponymous musical. And we're going to be looking at the moral and intellectual contradictions of Thomas Jefferson.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That's a kind way of putting it,

[Tom Holland]

in all kinds of ways. I think the most extraordinary of the Founding Fathers, but also perhaps the most compromised. But today there can be only one candidate, can't there, for our opening episode. And this is the most famous tax defaulter, independence fighter of them all.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right, so George Washington, the man who gave his name to the capital, the city where Reagan gave that speech, the man who led the Continental army through the War of Independence, and the man who, of course, became the first President of the United States. And Washington had, I mean, a really, really extraordinary life, you know, not quite apart from his military career. There's obviously his time as president. So I thought it would be fun to focus on just one particular episod. And one episode really stands out, and it's the one that Regan alluded to in that speech. So he mentioned the moment when a general falls to his knees in the hard snow of Valley Forge, you know, tears glistening in his eyes.

[Tom Holland]

Did that happen?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Did it happen? Well, we will be finding out. Yeah. We did a series before about Ronald Reagan in which Reagan tells a series of absolutely tremendous anecdotes about things that never happened.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, he commentated on an entire baseball match, didn't he? That never happened.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly, exactly. So that that sets the tone for what will follow. Anyway, this moment when George Washington does or does not fall to the snow in Valley Forge, many of our American listeners will immediately recognize this. I would say not one in a hundred of our British listeners will ever have heard of this moment. So we should explain just a bit of context. This moment of Valley Forge happens in the winter of 1777, 1778. And things are actually looking bleak for the American cause. So they have been fighting their tax rebellion for almost two years, but it's not going well. Their capital, Philadelphia, their provisional capital, has been occupied by British troops. They have been looking to the French to come in and bail them out, but so far, the French have not yet officially entered the war, and it looks quite possible they might not enter at all.

[Tom Holland]

Although Dominic Benjamin Franklin is on the scene to help out. So we'll be doing that in our next episode.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That's right. And George Washington and his Continental army are holed up in a place called Valley Forge, Pennsylvania. They've holed up there for the winter. They are desperately short of food and Supplies and clothing. They're at the mercy of the weather, they are ravaged by disease, and they are hoping for a miracle. So this is one of the mythic moments in American sort of patriotic history. It is the episode that turns Washington into a national father figure. And before we get into the story of Valley Forge itself, we should pull back a bit and look at who Washington is and what on earth is going on with this story. So there's a recent biography of Washington, won loads of prizes, great acclaim by Ron Chernow. And Chernow calls Washington the most elusive figure in American history, more revered than truly loved. An impossibly stiff and inflexible figure composed of too much marble to be quite human. And one of the things that Cherno does is to show that actually he was human. He was a flesh and blood character behind the kind of marble facade. And Tom, I think you've got a tremendous anecdote, haven't you, that will illustrate this?

[Tom Holland]

I do have an amusing anecdote. So it happens at the. The constitutional convention in 1787. And the guy who writes the preamble to the Constitution is a guy called Governor Morris.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He sets the template for mad American names right from the very beginning.

[Tom Holland]

Suspiciously French. And he's the guy who goes on to. He's kind of involved in establishing the grid system in New York, in Manhattan.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

But he's a massive japester. So he's the funster of the Constitutional Convention. And he is approached by Alexander Hamilton, as in the musical. And Hamilton says that if Morris will go up to Washington and slap him on the shoulder and say, my dear General, how happy I am to see you look so well, then Hamilton will buy him a dinner and Maurice does this. But the icy quality of Washington's stare as he greets this slap on the shoulder was so terrifying that he would not do it again for a thousand dinners. Wow.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And surely ruined the dinner. The memory of that would have ruined the dinner.

[Tom Holland]

It must have been a chilly occasion, I imagine.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, he felt he just let himself down. He was ashamed of himself, surely.

[Tom Holland]

Well, he had to go off and design grid systems to work it out of his system. That's quite a good anecdote, isn't it?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It's a brilliant anecdote. That's the best. One of the best anecdotes, actually, I think I've ever heard.

[Tom Holland]

Thank you.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That's tremendous. Certainly the best anecdote I've heard about George Washington. So Washington was born in 1732. He's born into a kind of gentry Family in the colony of Virginia. That's the oldest of all the British colonies in North America. Named by one friend of the show Sir Walter Raleigh for another Elizabeth I. So the Washingtons, originally, I believe, from Tring in Hertfordshire. John Washington, Washington's great grandfather, had started off in Tring and he had moved to Virginia. He establishes a tobacco plantation with African slave labor in the late 1650s. So this is a theme that will run through this series. There's a lot of slave labor in this series. Anyway, George grows up in the 1730s and 1740s. His great ambition is to be an English country gentleman. And he is.

[Tom Holland]

He.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He does stand out. I mean, he's an outstanding man because he's so big. So he's six feet tall, which of course, in the 1740s is very tall. He's very powerful. Huge shoulders. Everyone talks about his massive hands, so he has to have gloves made especially. He's a great horseman and he likes riding, he likes drinking tea, and he likes reading the novels of Henry Fielding, which is nice.

[Tom Holland]

I just wondering about the. The cherry tree.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

Because that's the other famous story that's told about him, is that he chopped down a cherry tree and then whatever, said, I cannot tell a lie.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. His father said, did you chop down a cherry tree? And he said, I did. I can't tell a lie. This story is itself a lie. It was invented. It was invented by a man called, of course, inevitably, an American writer called Parson Weems.

[Tom Holland]

Oh, yes.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And Parson Weems will be reappearing in this story.

[Tom Holland]

Oh, brilliant.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Parson Weems just basically goes around making stuff up. Today he'd have a history podcast about the Costa Rican Civil War.

[Tom Holland]

Right.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Anyway, so George Washington, he's this massive bloke with these huge hands, but disappointingly, he's got a very weak voice. He's got a very thin sort of breath. He describes having a breathy voice because he had pleurisy. So he speaks. He speaks like Marilyn Monroe,

[Tom Holland]

happy birthday, Mr. President.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. To himself as he looks in the mirror.

[Tom Holland]

I can. We're just on the topic of accents. Yeah. Does he have a West country accent?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Undoubtedly.

[Tom Holland]

How do they talk about in Virgin in Virginia?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Happy birthday. Happy birthday.

[Tom Holland]

Happy birthday, Mr. President.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

If you can basically imagine a Dorset yokel doing Marilyn Monroe with massive hands with Kenny Everett's hands in the 1983 general election rally. That's a. That's a niche reference. Didn't expect me to get that in. Okay. So the thing is, he said that Gouverneur Morris was a great funster. George Washington is a total fun. He's a massive fun sponge. He. It's often said of him, people would say they never saw him laugh. One of his offices said of him, you would seldom see a frown or smile on his countenance. His air was serious and reflecting. And part of the reason he's not keen on smiling is that he's got these terrible dental issues. So from an early age, his teeth are decaying as early as 1760, so long before he's involved in the tax business. One of his friends said of him, his mouth is large and generally firmly closed, but which from time to time discloses some defective teeth.

[Tom Holland]

Is that because of all the sugar from the plantations?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, possibly.

[Tom Holland]

Is it a Virginia thing? I don't know.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Tobacco is Virginia. Really?

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

To do, you know, it's tobacco. Does that. Does that damage your teeth? Surely it does. Anyway, he's just got terrible teeth. Again, a theme that will run through this episode. The key to him, says Ron Cherno in his biography, is Washington's intense self discipline and his sense of control. So Washington is not actually as boring as you would think. He is a man of fierce passions and a hot temper, but he keeps these under sort of rigid, inflexible control. Thomas Jefferson said of him, his temper was naturally high toned, but reflection and resolution had obtained a firm and habitual ascendancy over it. John Adams, he had great self command, but to preserve so much equanimity as he did required a great capacity.

[Tom Holland]

John Adams also called him a muttonhead.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He did. And actually John Adams would have said he had a great self command, but to reserve so much equanimity as he did required a great capacity, because that's how John Adams spoke, as we discussed in our previous American Revolution series. Anyway, the crucial moment in Washington's life comes when he's in his early twenties. Britain and France were fighting for control of North America. This is what we call the Seven Years War and what Americans call the French and Indian War. Washington became a commander of the Virginia militia and he established reputation as the preeminent colonial officer from North America, from the colonies. Everyone said, he's very brave, he's very. He's a good leader, he's very disciplined, he's great. But at the end of the war, he was denied a royal commission by his British superiors. They said, no, you know, he's not quite good enough or whatever. And he felt a deep sense of resentment. He thought, basically, they look down on me because I'M a mere colonial and they're from the metropolis, the Imperial Metropole, and they've made me grovel to them and I've got nothing out of it. And so he definitely has a sort of, you know, for him, this is personal. There's a chip on his shoulder. The Seven Years War has been a great triumph for Britain, but unfortunately, Tom, it creates huge problems, which is sad, because the victory in the Seven Years War leaves Britain with this massive debt, £140 million. So basically, our debt has gone up 10 times to win the war. And paying interest on the debt, that alone takes up half Britain's national budget.

[Tom Holland]

This sounds quite familiar.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, it does, except we're not winning triumphant wars against the French.

[Tom Holland]

No, no.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Anyway, the question is, how do you pay for this debt now that you've conquered all this territory in North America? How are you going to fund troops to look after it and to keep the peace? Not least because there are increasing conflicts with native tribes. As the settlers push west in England, the gentry who shoulder the tax burden are already paying more tax than they've ever paid before.

[Tom Holland]

So, what, 3%?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, exactly. Half a percent or something. So. So Parliament decides it will raise revenue from the colonies themselves to pay for their own defense.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, that sounds entirely reasonable.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Quite right. And Parliament also says, well, this is the time. Basically, the British Empire, Britain's overseas possessions, have now swollen to dimensions that we never dreamed of. And the system for dealing with all this is very ramshackle and corrupt. There's all sorts of smuggling and we're whatnot. Basically, let's use this opportunity to sort this out, to streamline and modernize it for the Age of the Enlightenment.

[Tom Holland]

Sensible policies for a happy America, basically.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. We'll have new courts, we'll have nice new customs duties on all legal documents in America. There'll be a stamp tax, as there is already in Britain. We'll just basically streamline the whole thing.

[Tom Holland]

This sounds great. I mean, who could possibly object to that?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It is great, because basically, if you just follow this, you'll turn into Canada, which is brilliant, or Australia, and everyone loves those countries. However, at the time, the American colonists don't like this at all. And very, very simply. I mean, obviously this is a massive issue that we could spend hours discussing going into all the nuances, but very simply, the issue is that until the 1760s, the North American colonists had basically been left alone. But what's happened now is that obviously Parliament is trying to legislate for them. Parliament says, look, it's time to sort all this out. And the more militant colonists don't like it. They don't want to be sorted out. They don't want to be interfered with. And the militants say, well, we had traditional liberties, you know, from the 17th

[Tom Holland]

century, which are English liberties.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

English liberties. And you're interfering with them. You don't have any right to make laws for us without our consent. And the French have been beaten. So actually, frankly, we don't really need you anyway, because we can probably deal with the natives ourselves.

[Tom Holland]

Right, so that's the thing, isn't it, that they don't actually want the British to come in and be woke about the native Americans. They just want to go out and grab their land.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yes, absolutely right. This. This is such a great patriotic podcast.

[Tom Holland]

Brilliant. But it's true, isn't it?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It is true.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, that is. That is the state of play.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. And to just point out what the British and the loyalists take on, because don't Forget, at least 1 in 5Americans probably is a loyalist and stays loyal to King and Parliament. They say, well, here's the reasons for doing this. Don't go moaning about that. You're not represented in Parliament. Most people in Britain don't vote in elections for Parliament. Most towns in Britain, lots of them, don't have an mp. The way that Parliament works is Parliament has chosen on ancient organic principles that have evolved over time. Parliament as a body represents our entire British global family. And Parliament's laws bind not just British subjects in Britain, but British subjects all over the world. So Parliament does speak for you as it speaks for everybody at home. Now, that doesn't cut any ice with the militants or indeed with George Washington. Washington stands very much on the more extreme wing of this issue. He has money problems, like a lot of landowners do after the Seven Years War. The tobacco price had fallen considerably in the 1760s, so he's struggling to maintain his gentry lifestyle. He's run up big debts and. And obviously he hates the thought of paying new taxes. He doesn't want to pay a stamp tax. He doesn't want to pay a tax on glass or paper or tea brought in by a Parliament in London where he's never been, Washington is also involved. You mentioned land. So important. Washington is involved in land speculation in the west. And when in 1763, Britain forbids American settlement west of the Appalachians, so Parliament says, stop expanding west. We don't want to get into conflict with the native tribes. Washington is gutted. Washington and his mates want to get stuck in.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, of course.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So at every point during the breakdown of relations, Washington is very much with the militants. So he goes to the First Continental Congress in Philadelphia in 1774 and he doesn't really say much because of course he's worried about showing people his teeth, but he's very much on the hawkish wing. Then in 1775, after fighting has already broken out with British troops at Lexington and Concord, there's a second Continental Congress. This time Washington turns up in his militia uniform. And it's at this second Continental Congress that the militants vote to set up a secessionist proto state called the United Colonies of North America, which will have its own Continental army to fight off their imperial overlords.

[Tom Holland]

Can I ask, is this why Washington turns up in his militia uniform? Of course, that he suspects this is going to happen. He therefore thinks there's going to need to be a commander. And if I turn up in my militia uniform, it will serve as a nudge to everybody that I'm the guy.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. Fighting has broken out and Washington wants to proclaim that he is, you know, tanned, rested and ready to take on the British. So the Continental Army's been set up, someone's got to command it. There are various people, but Washington is by far the most obvious. He's got military experience in the Seven Years War, he's from the most populous colony, which is Virginia, the oldest. And the other important thing about Washington which will run through his career, he is a unifier. He is a bit vanilla because he's a bit boring and he doesn't say anything. No one's offended by him. So a delegate from Massachusetts said of him, he's a complete gentleman. He's sensible, amiable, virtuous, modest and brave. A bloke from Connecticut. He seems discreet and virtuous. No harem scarum, ranting, swearing fellow, but sober, steady and calm. I mean, you know, these could be Washington's epitaph. So now what he has to do is he has to weld the militias from these 13 rebel colonies into a continental army and he has to lead the resistance to the British, you know, arguably at this point the greatest imperial power on earth and a power that

[Tom Holland]

Washington knows well because of his experience

[Dominic Sandbrook]

with them, knows very well. Now, in American kind of patriotic legend, this is a great underdog victory. And you can see why they would say that Britain has the Royal Navy, Britain has a bigger population. Britain has a trained professional army with up to 50, 000 men. And Britain also brings over about 30,000 German mercenaries, the so called Hessians. But if you read distinguished American historians, academic historians of this period, like Gordon Wood, who died a week ago, sees obituaries in the papers in Britain as well as America. Gordon Wood points out, actually, the rebels have an awful lot of things going for them. First of all, they're fighting on home soil. The British have to send troops 3,000 miles away north. Know in an age when there are massive communications and logistics problems, and actually, no country in the 18th century has ever fought and won a war like this 3,000 miles from home.

[Tom Holland]

God, I suppose that's true, isn't it?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, I mean, it's not been done before. The British are trying to do something that's never really been done.

[Tom Holland]

I suppose the closest analogy would be the conquest of America by the conquistadors, but they're nothing on that. On the scale that's required to defeat the colonial rebels in America.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, I mean, there's a big difference between basically toppling a kind of Bronze Age state, a widely disliked regime that doesn't even understand what you are, and dealing with an insurgency on a massive scale. I mean, that's a really important point. Second point, you could send 80,000 troops or whatever, but you can't conquer North America. It's huge. And it's perfect for a guerrilla war. I mean, it's covered with woods and forests and lakes and all of these things. Even if you captured the. The towns and cities, which of course are very small by European standards, so what, the gorillas can just go off into the countryside?

[Tom Holland]

So there is a kind of Vietnam quality to it.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Totally, there is. So I think that's the other issue. I think Vietnam is absolutely the right comparison, because basically, what the Americans can do, first of all, they. They care much more than the British do. The Americans basically know, I think, even from the start, that if they just keep going, they will probably win. The British will eventually give up.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, and in Britain, there are lots of people who have sympathy with them. It's not like everyone in Britain is opposed to this.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

No, no, there's lots of people who sympathize with the colonists. But also, even if you don't sympathize with the colonists, you're much more interested in India or the Caribbean, the rich sugar islands of the Caribbean, than you are in, you know, Georgia or Vermont or something. I. I mean, no one in Britain cares that much about these places. So basically, Washington's job, I mean, rather like if you're a member of the Viet Cong or something, his job is don't get caught into A massive pitch battle. Just keep going, melt into the shadows, keep up a long guerrilla campaign, and eventually the British will come to terms. Surely they will. And so this is the story of the next two years. Washington does a pretty good job of building this into an army. Although he's often complaining that they're very licentious and disorderly his men. Because Washington is very straight laced, he loses far more battles than he wins. But these are very small battles by European standards, kind of little skirmishes. If they were fought in, in Europe, we would call it a skirmish. We wouldn't even think of them as a battle. Of course, they're battles by North American standards. But the thing is, every time he loses, he just melts away into the. Into the woods. A good example is one of his biggest defeats. He's driven out of New York in 1776. He escapes south from New York into Pennsylvania. And then he pulls off this tremendous PR coup by crossing the river Delaware at Christmas. And then he wins two little battles at Trenton and Princeton. And everybody in Europe says, oh gosh, Washington, you know, he's. He's got one over on the British again.

[Tom Holland]

Washington crossing the Delaware.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That one wasn't that nice? Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

Lydia the Tattooed Lady.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Do you want to explain that reference to people, Tom?

[Tom Holland]

It's a song called Lydia the Tattooed lady and she has all kinds of tattoos. And one of them is Washington crossing the Delaware.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

There you go. So people can google it. Maybe you should sing the entire thing as a bonus, special bonus treat for our rest is History club members.

[Tom Holland]

Do you know, maybe.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So let's get to 1777. It's a very mixed picture, the war that year. On the one hand, the Americans get a massive result. They captured General John Burgoyne's army at Saratoga and they capture lots of prisoners. And that's a great propaganda coup for them, especially in the capitals of Europe, Paris, Madrid and so on. But for Washington personally, 1777 is a nightmare. He's outwitted by the British General William Howe in rural Pennsylvania. He loses a crucial battle. And the result of that is that the British at the end of September are able to march into the rebel capital of Philadelphia unopposed. And the Continental Congress, this is the kind of political wing of the tax protest. They have fled and basically Philadelphia has been. Only the women and children remain. Washington's army is outside Philadelphia, kind of lurking around in the woods. And the morale that autumn is very, very low. So that's the pouring with rain. They haven't got any food. The discipline is breaking down Even Ron Chernow, who's definitely a patriotic American historian, describes them as marauding through the countryside, terrorizing the inhabitants. So they're basically sort of looting and stuff, and they're very miserable. So let's pick up the story a few weeks after that. Winter has come, and Washington has a dilemma. What's he going to do with his army? So his army, there's about 12,000 of them and about 400 women and servants and general hangers on. And among those 12,000 men are men from all 13 breakaway colonies. And we'll talk about them more after the break. They can't just go home. Washington himself only went home once, between 1775 and 1781. What they need to do, he needs to keep the army together and he needs to find winter quarters for them. He doesn't want to retreat too far from Philadelphia because he doesn't want to abandon the capital's kind of rural hinterland to the British. But he also wants to stay in touch with the Continental Congress, which is in York, Pennsylvania, and the Pennsylvania legislature, which is in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

[Tom Holland]

Oh, it's just very wars of the Roses.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Very wars of the Roses, Yeah. I don't think that was by design. I think that's by accident.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. It would be possibly pushing things too far to imagine that was by design.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It would. So the place he chooses is Valley forge, which is 18 miles northwest of Philadelphia. And Valley Forge is somewhere that becomes one of the most sacred sites in American history. Washington said it was dreary, which was a bit unfair, I think. It's a sort of plateau. It's high ground surrounded by woods and fields. Because you're on high ground, you can see if the British are coming because there's woods, you've got timber for your camp, there are streams for water, and you can basically sort of keep an eye and make sure the British don't go out from Philadelphia to raid the countryside. And because there's farmland around, Washington is hopeful that the locals, who are Welsh Quakers, so ticking, two very familiar rest is history boxes in one go, that the Welsh Quakers will keep them supplied with crops and livestock. Unfortunately, Tom, one of the only lessons of history that really endures is that you can never truly rely on a Welsh Quaker. So Washington will learn that lesson in the second half of the episode. So they're on their way to Valley Forge. Washington knows even as they're marching there that this is going to be pretty grim. His men have run out of supplies. Many of them don't have a blanket between them. About 4,000 of them don't have any boots or shoes. And Washington said later that even the march through the sleet to Valley Forge was a pretty grim ordeal. He remembered seeing men without clothes to cover their nakedness, without blankets to lay on, without shoes, by which their marches might be traced by the blood from their feet, marching through frost and snow without a murmur. But I think you can argue that. I mean, we've been quite down on Washington, but this is the moment when he really emerges as a national leader. Because basically, Washington says, and he has it known, has it widely known, that he will share the hardships of his men, he's not going to bunk off to Mount Vernon. He will be there with them every step of the way. And his artillery commander, Henry Knox, said to him, the people of America look to you as their father, and into your hands they entrust their all, confident of every exertion on your part, for their security and happiness. So basically, this is on you now. Like you're gonna. You're. We're looking to you to get us through this. Anyway, six days before Christmas, the 19th of December, they arrive at Valley Forge. There is absolutely nothing there, no shelter. But this is the sort of challenge at which Washington excels. So he divides his men up into construction teams. He says, I want you to cut down the trees and build these cabins. American historians love these cabins, wood cabins,

[Tom Holland]

log cabins, because they love, like they

[Dominic Sandbrook]

love summer camps in America, don't they? This must be the ancestor of that winter camp. Washington says, we'll have a race, see who can build their cabins most quickly. And the winner gets $12. And Washington says, I'll give a hundred dollars to the team that comes up with the best way of making a waterproof roof using the least wood. Wood. So very exciting scenes.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, you called him a fun sponge, but that, I mean, what could be more fun than that? It's great fun, winter fun, the Washington way.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And actually, they do a really good job. They put up 2,000 log cabins within a few days. They dig trenches, they dig redoubts. Oh, we love our redoubt, don't we? We haven't had a redoubt on the show since the Battle of Poltava. Yeah, great to have the redoubts back. And actually, I mean, this gives you a sign of how small North America is in terms of demography. By the time they finish, they've built the fourth biggest city in North America with these 2,000 cabins.

[Tom Holland]

That's an amazing stat.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Anyway, I compared this momentarily to a Summer camp. It is not like a summer camp. It's pouring with rain. There are dead horses everywhere. They just throw discarded wood everywhere. It's very muddy, it's very sludgy. As we will discover in the second half, half the toilet facilities are extremely poor.

[Tom Holland]

Can I ask why they don't bury the horses?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That baffled me.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, isn't it kind of basic, know how?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, there's just rotting horse corpses everywhere. Yeah, a British would have buried their horses, I think. Anyway, a lot of them haven't got any clothes and because of that they've ripped up some tents and they're wearing them as shirts and as shoes. Weirdly, one European volunteer said afterwards, the unfortunate soldiers were in want of everything. They had neither coats, hats, shirts nor shoes. Their feet and legs froze until they become almost black and it was often necessary to amputate them. Now, on top of all this, they don't have enough food because the war has destroyed the Continental armies supply chain. So to Washington's horror, the days go by. Some supplies come, but they've all rotted. So they live on something which they call fire cakes, which is basically, they make this disgusting mixture of flour and water and they cook it on kind of heated stones.

[Tom Holland]

Oh my God, sounds horrible.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, they're eating flour, basically.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, Americans do love a big breakfast, don't they?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

They do. And we would. Before we started recording, we were discussing the quality of American food. So, you know, again, a theme that will run through American history. So after a few days they basically look like a camp of ghosts or beggars. And there's an excellent diary entry by another splendidly named American kid.

[Tom Holland]

I've just looked at the name.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He's a regimental surgeon. This can't be true. He's called Dr. Alberjentz.

[Tom Holland]

Waldo,

[Dominic Sandbrook]

that's just a Star wars name, isn't it? That's just one of those Star wars names or an NFL name. Alba gents. Waldo says. He's describing the scene. He says, poor food, hard lodging, cold weather, fatigue, nasty clothes, nasty cookery, vomit. Half my time I'm getting. I'm going west. More west country the more I do it. Smoke out of my senses. The devil's in it. I can't endure it. There comes a bowl of beef soup full of burnt leaves and dirt, sickish enough to make a Hector spew. And he. On and on he goes, on it goes. Poor food, hard lodging, cold weather, nasty clothes, nasty cookery. Tom. It's like my days living in Minnesota. Bang, bang. Great banter. So anyway, they're all really sick. They've got scabies, they've got scurvy, they've got typhus, they've got typhoid, they've got dysentery.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, we emphasize dysentery, the role of dysentery in history, don't we?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, and they've got loads of it.

[Tom Holland]

Very rarely discussed by historians, but a key, key factor, the massive killer.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Now, you know I had that fact for you about this being the fourth biggest city in North America.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I actually have a better fact that I hope people will take away from this podcast. Apart from the teeth, more Americans died at Valley Ford than at any battle of the entire war.

[Tom Holland]

Well, I mean, that is illustrative of the impact of dysentery on the patterns of history, isn't it?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I have to say I was really struck by that. And that's partly because the battles are basically glorified punch ups in fields. But 2,000 people died at Valley Forge, which was the sixth of Washington's army, and more would probably have died if Washington hadn't been an enthusiastic proto vaxxer.

[Tom Holland]

So it's inoculations, isn't it, at this point?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Inoculations? It's not vaccination, it's inoculation. So basically what they do is they scratch your skin and they give you a very mild dose of smallpox from which you'll probably recover because if you get it through the skin, you're more likely to recover. And the army had been plagued by smallpox. Had Washington not organized this program of inoculation, probably more men would have died.

[Tom Holland]

So it's one of the more memorable scenes in John Adams, the TV series. Yeah. Where they scrape a bit of pass out of one of a. Someone with smallpox. Franklin was very keen on this.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Was he?

[Tom Holland]

Because he'd lost one of his sons when he was 4 years old to smallpox and he hadn't inoculated him. And so he became a great proselytizer. And of course he's, he's the great, you know, the great scientist of America. So everyone listens to him.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. I have to tell you that we gave up on John Adams as a family because Mrs. Sambrook said she found it interminably boring and refused to watch anymore.

[Tom Holland]

There were similar sentiments from Mrs. Holland and she didn't actually complain, she just fell asleep. She voted with her eyelids.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Voted with her.

[Tom Holland]

I love it.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So anyway, the inoculation campaign, this is testament to Washington's great strengths as a commander. So actually on the Battlefield Washington is not a brilliant tactician at all. I mean, he loses most of his battles, but he is brilliant. I take my hat off to him. He is brilliant at managing his men.

[Tom Holland]

And this doesn't matter if the battles are just glorified skirmishes.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Correct, Exactly. So he's got. He's basically. He's got his headquarters in this little stone cottage at, inevitably, Valley Forge Creek.

[Tom Holland]

Hold on. How come he's got a stone cottage?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, the sharing, the hardships was kind of nominal for the first few days. He was in a tent for the

[Tom Holland]

first few days, and now he's got a stone cottage. Luxury.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

But, yeah, his entire reputation is a lie.

[Tom Holland]

We dare to tell it as it is.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, it's a podcast that tells you the truth, finally, about top hypocrite George Washington. So here he is in his lovely stone cottage, his holiday home with Zaga, though it's not terribly good fun because he doesn't believe in fun. So dice and card games are banned and all of his aids are sleeping in the downstairs rooms and stuff. And actually, the general sense of discipline was very impressive to European visitors. So one French officer said he was struck by the. The air of calm dignity through which you could trace the strong feelings of the patriot and discern the father as well as the commander of his soldiers. And this emphasis on Washington as a father figure, you know, runs right through accounts of Valley Forge, even at the time. And I think, again, that's one of his distinguishing characteristics. Now, it's precisely because of Washington's insistence on his own dignity that Ronald Reagan's story about kneeling to pray in the snow must be false. We know it must be false. And historians have, you know, spent a lot of ink talking about, did Washington believe in God or not? Was he a Christian? Because it's a slightly confusing picture. He did go to church, but he didn't go regularly. When he. Everyone else knelt to pray, Washington would stay standing. Washington never took communion. Washington very rarely mentioned Jesus Christ. He would talk about providence or we talk about the author of our being. So some historians have painted him as a deist. So, you know, God is a clockmaker. But some of Washington's mates, like James Madison, said, oh, no, no, he was a very devout Anglican. And it's probably. I think the consensus actually is that in the 18th century, if you were part of the Virginia gentry, your Anglicanism was very austere and sort of restrained.

[Tom Holland]

I like that in Anglicanism.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, you like that. Sort of small P. Puritanical.

[Tom Holland]

Well, literally upstanding.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. They, you want to say standing, kneeling is flummery. You don't want to do that.

[Tom Holland]

It's performative.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And it's precisely because of that that it's utterly implausible that Washington would have knelt in the snow, especially if where his men could have seen him.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, Reagan would have done that.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, but Washington wouldn't. He definitely would.

[Tom Holland]

Oh, my Lord.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It would have been a lapse of the dignity. Bill Clinton would have lain down in the snow or something. Oh, God, yes. Tears streaming down his cheeks.

[Tom Holland]

Trump would have stayed in his stone cottage.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, and his gold cottage, surely made

[Tom Holland]

out of gold ingots.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, anyway, this story about him kneeling in the snow is absolutely fake. It was invented in 1800 after Washington's

[Tom Holland]

death, says Parson Weems.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Again, this is Parson Weems. He's an absolute villain. He's a terrible man, making up stuff randomly. But actually, do you know what? Washington should have knelt in the snow. Maybe he should have done, because things are looking very bleak for him as they approach Christmas. Two days before Christmas, 23rd of December, he writes to the Continental Congress. He says, our situation here at Valley Forge is absolutely desperate. Yesterday I asked the troops to be in readiness to scour the countryside for food, he said, but they were too weak and hungry to obey. Only the efforts of my officers, he says, prevented a dangerous mutiny. I am now convinced beyond a doubt that unless some great and capital change suddenly takes place, this army must inevitably be reduced to one or other of these three things. Starve, dissolve, or disperse in order to obtain subsistence. And just three or four days of bad weather would prove our destruction. So, Tom, is the game up for George Washington? The American cause? Are they going to abandon the rebellion, pay their taxes, obey the laws, and peacefully evolve into a warmer Canada? Well, there's only one way to find out.

[Tom Holland]

And spoiler alert, I'm a fan. Afraid the answer to that is pretty disappointing, but come back after the break and find out the worst.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Hi, this is Gary Lineker from Goal Hangers. The rest is football. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee, and what might be hidden away in the small print. Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas, or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate, an easy transfer, and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps things simple. Wise is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than 160 countries and with over 40 currencies, most transfers arrive instantly. Wise uses the mid market exchange rate like the one you see on Google with no markups or hidden fees. So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wealth Wyze app today. Be smart, get wise T's and C's

[Tom Holland]

Apply this episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. It's easy to ditch overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

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[Tom Holland]

This episode is brought to you by TikTok. Now discovering something new. Nothing could be more thrilling than that.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

That's so true, Tom. So the most exciting intellectual adventure that I've been on in the last couple of years was finding out all about the siege of Silmysl in Eastern Poland. So that's during the First World War. And I went online, I read lots of books about it. But what particularly thrilled me was discovering that there's a phenomenon called Prim Tok. So people on TikTok exchanging facts about the siege of Shemyshl, talking about its, its history, its people. And for me, that was one of the most invigorating intellectual journeys that I've ever been on.

[Tom Holland]

Well, of course, studying the history of obscure First World War battles, that's the kind of thing we're all into. But there are less mainstream areas that you can discover on TikTok, like history or maths or literature or cooking or music or sport or anything like that. Creators on TikTok make it easy to discover something new every day.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

TikTok is where discovery turns into conversation. Visit TikTok.com forward/exploremore to learn more.

[Tom Holland]

Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Rest Is history. It is the 23rd of December, 1777, and in Valley Forge, it's not looking like it's going to be the best Christmas ever. So a very cold, miserable George Washington. Even though he's got his lovely stone cottage, he's still not having a fun time. He sent a desperate message to the Continental Congress, basically saying, you've got to help me out here or the entire army is going to implode. And with it, the. The war effort.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly so. Exactly so. Two days later, they have Christmas and Washington and his aids. They have a dinner, the Christmas dinner, of mutton, cabbage and crusts of bread with water to drink. Because he'd lost all his baggage in the campaign outside Philadelphia, he's only got a single spoon to eat it with. So his aspirations of becoming an English country gentleman are very, very far from being realized at this moment.

[Tom Holland]

Well, you could say. I mean, this is the kind of training that you get at an elite English public school, don't you?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It's true, actually. It's true.

[Tom Holland]

Kind of awful food and kind of shivering in the cold to toughen you up.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

If he saw it in those terms, perhaps it would have cheered him up, maybe.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. Well, actually, do you know what you say it's terribly cold and Reagan talked about the snow and Parson Weems talked about all the snow, but it's not actually that cold. So it's not a particularly cold winter. It doesn't snow that much. It's basically rain and wind that they have to worry about. Now, before the break, I mentioned that he was hoping for aid from Welsh Quakers. This was foolish because basically the locals are not that interested in helping him. And this may, you know, surprise American listeners who have been brought up, you know, to. In the sort of hurrah, hurrah view of the American Revolution. Historians disagree about the exact numbers, but let's say a quarter, a third, maybe even of the colonial population support, actually support the British in this war. The Quakerism, I think, means they're probably not desperately keen on piling into a war, but by and large, they just want to keep out. They just want to get on with their lives. And they do have food, but the British troops in Philadelphia paying them more for their food. So they just think, well, I'd rather sell it to the British troops in Philadelphia than I would to these blokes.

[Tom Holland]

Well, that's the American way, isn't it?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah. Capitalism is the American way. Washington is very disappointed by this. Interestingly, Washington does not think that selling to the highest bidder is the American way. So Washington at various points talks about making trading with the British punishable by death. He sends thousand men out to basically requisition all the livestock from the local fields.

[Tom Holland]

So basically steal it.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Steal it. Exactly. And he says in letters, this business about selling to the highest bidder is a sign of the debasement of our national character. He says our spirit of American independence is imperiled by our own abominable lust of gain.

[Tom Holland]

Goodness, what would he make of Elon Musk.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yes, exactly. Very good question. And actually, the interesting thing is that Washington at this point is not quite as popular with even his fellow officers or with Congress as he would later become. So that winter, while he was at Valley Forge, there was a movement to sack him as commander in chief and bring in the bloke who'd won the Battle of Saratoga six months earlier, General Horatio Gates. And this movement fizzled out. But it's a reminder that Washington is not as secure as he looks. And actually, at the end of January, 1778, you know, he's been writing these letters to Congress. A congressional delegation at the end of January, visits the camp. And Washington has to be on his very best behavior. He's very polite, he's very respectful, and he basically begs them to improve recruitment and to sort out their supply chains. But the visitor that he's really looking forward to getting comes a few days after that, and this is his wife, Martha. So Martha hasn't seen him for months. She arrives in early February by carriage, over the kind of icy roads, she's joined by some of their slaves. She gets to Valley Forge. She's really shocked by his condition. She writes to a friend. He is well, but much worn with fatigue and anxiety. I never knew him to be so anxious as now. Now, if George is a little bit elusive, I have to say, Martha is positively opaque. So I had a look in my files, and in 2015, I reviewed a biography of Martha Washington for the Sunday Times. And the final line of my review read as follows. I don't think I've ever read a biography of a more boring woman, really. Anyway, she. She arrives at the camp, she rolls up her sleeve, she gets stuck in. She manages the staff, she organizes the meals. Everyone says, oh, she's brilliant. You know, I never in my life knew a woman so busy from early morning till late at night, as was Lady Washington. Interesting. They call her Lady Washington, actually.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, very.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Now, she's not the only woman at the camp. And modern historians, perhaps unsurprisingly, are very, very keen to play up the general diversity of Valley Forge. So there's other generals, wives. There's one with the. With the action.

[Tom Holland]

I just, again, just saw that and thought, did I read that right?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It leaps off the page, isn't it?

[Tom Holland]

So this is Lucy Flucker Knox,

[Dominic Sandbrook]

which

[Tom Holland]

prompts me to ask, should we clear?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Flucker is not a nickname.

[Tom Holland]

Nor is Knox. No. So you've put down that there are wives of the various generals, that there are nurses and there are laundresses but are there prostitutes? Because, I mean, they generally follow armies, don't they?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Do you know what? I haven't seen any mention which I did find odd. And I wondered whether that was either because American historians don't really want to mention it or. Or because Washington forbade it. It's perfectly possible that Washington, because he is very puritanical, whether he basically tried to stamp it out. Even so, 12,000 men. Is it really plausible that there's nobody there?

[Tom Holland]

Well, he's shown that he's alert to the danger of disease, I suppose. So that might be possible, yes.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And Washington generally was very down on women being at the camp. He said the multitude of women in particular, especially those who are pregnant or have children, are a clog upon every movement, but he can't stop them. Now, the other thing is the kind of the racial diversity or the ethnic diversity. So as we said before, there are men from all 13 rebel colonies. There are Catholics and Jews. There are lots of people from Scotland and Ireland. There are French. There are Prussians. There are Austrians, Poles, Dutch, Italians, Spanish. There are even Hungarians. Now, the most celebrated foreigner at the camp, somebody you admire, Tom, or you always make excuses for the hapless and ineffective Marquis de Lafayette.

[Tom Holland]

Is he. Is he dazing off?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Right. A man who fell asleep at the crucial moments of the French Revolution and thereby lost, completely lost the initiative. So Malfayette had arrived in the summer of 1777 as a volunteer when he was only 19 years old. He was incredibly idealistic. He'd gone and made his case personally to Congress about being involved. Involved. Washington at first was suspicious of him, but basically fell in love with him at Valley Forge. Really impressed by Lafayette's energy and his enthusiasm.

[Tom Holland]

So he's not falling asleep at this point?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

No, no, not at all, actually. Maybe he burnt himself out at Valley Forge, and that meant he was underpowered when it came to the crisis in his own country. But Washington adopted him as a protege

[Tom Holland]

kind of son almost, wasn't it?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, exactly. As a surrogate son, really. Exactly. So now there are also some people of color at, what, Valley Forge. So most native tribes sided with the British for understandable reasons because they think the North American colonists just want to steal all our lands.

[Tom Holland]

And they're not wrong.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, they're not wrong. And the British have, you know, although they probably would have taken them. The British have made a feeble attempt to stop this happening. But There are about 50 scouts from the Oneida tribe. And Washington was a great fan of these fellas. He said they were they were brilliant. But the really striking story is the presence of African American soldiers. And if you look at sort of online accounts of this and very recent history books in the last decade, the estimates have kind of got bigger and bigger and bigger. I think probably because historians are trying to see what they want to see, to get into the sort of the details of this. In January 1778, the smallest colony, which was Rhode island, was struggling to fulfill its. Its quota that it had to send, basically it's kind of recruitment quota. And one of Washington's officers, who was a guy called James Mitchell Varnum, said, well, why don't you just, why don't you sign up slaves, put them in the army? And for Washington, that's a big ask, because Washington was born into a slave owning family, and Washington did own slaves himself. He was conflicted about it. By the standards of slave owners, Washington was pretty humane. Even so he bought dozens of slaves during his lifetime. By the time the crisis, you know, with Britain breaks out in the 1770s, he's. He owns for getting on 100 slaves, something like 87 slaves. Ron Cherno, who loves Washington, says in his biography, slavery was woven into every aspect of Mount Vernon life, even for visitors. Even though Washington has slaves, even though Washington knows that Southerners will be appalled by this, he agrees to this proposal. And so the colony of Rhode island bought the freedom of 117 slaves and sent them as soldiers to Valley Forge. And two other states then followed suit, Massachusetts and Connecticut. And the deal there in Connecticut, for example, was if you're a slave owner, you could duck military service if you sent slaves in your place, but they're not slaves anymore.

[Tom Holland]

They're not like the Mamelukes or something. They've been freed by this point.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

You get freed. Exactly. You're freed and you're sent into the army, and then afterwards you will be free. So by August 1778. So this is the point after which they've lost Valley Forge. The total of black men in the army is about 755 soldiers. And the really interesting thing, the top man on this, top historian on this is a guy called Henry Vaughan Weinscheck. And he says there are remarkably few reports of any trouble at all. There's no record of people complaining. There's no record of fights or interdisciplinary problems caused by racial integration. And both Weinscheck and Cherno think that the war had a big impact on Washington personally, on his attitude to slavery. So it's at this point, 1778, that he tells his steward back home up to Mount Vernon. We should stop selling slaves against their will. We should stop breaking up slave families. And then at the end of the year, he's writing to his steward. He mentions his slaves in passing, and he says, my slaves, of whom I every day long more and more to get clear of. In other words, set free. I'd like to set them all free. He never actually does set them all

[Tom Holland]

free, though I thought he did in his will.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Well, not in his lifetime. Exactly. He doesn't set them free in his life.

[Tom Holland]

There's a complication because actually Martha owns most of them.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly.

[Tom Holland]

But he kind of makes provisions for when she dies that he will. They will be set free.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. So it's a complicated story in Washington, but I don't there's any doubt that Washington thinks slavery is wrong and he

[Tom Holland]

feels bad about it, as we will see with Jefferson. That doesn't necessarily mean that you set your slaves free, though.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

No. Exactly. So back to the story. We're in February 1778. They're still very short of food. They're still suffering from disease. Washington writes to the governor of New York, George Clinton. He says, you know, we're pretty close to a famine in the camp. There are more rumors of a mutiny. Nothing but the most active efforts can avoid so shocking a catastrophe. But a week later, it's his birthday, his 47th birthday, and I thought you'd like this detail, Tom. His junior officers organized an entertainment for him, and this was a British play by Joseph Addison about the life of Cato the Younger. So do you want to tell everyone who Cato the Younger is?

[Tom Holland]

Kato the Younger is a model of republican virtue who prefers to commit suicide rather than submit to Caesar. There you go. So basically, he's the kind of model of inflexible, humorless opposition to monarchy that Washington is all about.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. He's seen this play several times. He actually could quote bits of it at length without the text. So some of his favorite lines. Th steady temper can look on guilt, rebellion, and fraud in the calm lights of mild philosophy. Tis not in mortals to command success. But we'll do more. We'll deserve it. So all this sort of stuff about duty, steadfastness, deserving success. Yeah, this is absolutely Washington. Bingo. So that's his birthday. Brilliant. Watch his play about Kato the Younger. And the next day, an excellent man arrives in the camp. And this is a man who actually is going to transform the fortunes of the continental army completely. And this is a man called Friedrich Wilhelm, Ludolf Gerhardt, Augustine, Luis Freiherr von Steuben.

[Tom Holland]

Dominic, would this gentleman by any chance be a German?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He is German. He's a top, absolutely top, tip top Prussian. And this bloke, von Steuben, he came from a military family in Prussia. He'd served in the Seven Years War, he'd been a captain, he'd been a great pal of Frederick the Great. But then he'd been discharged from the Prussian army in murky circumstances and there are some clues to those circumstances, perhaps that will emerge in the next few moments. He became the court chamberlain for the Prince of Hohenzollern Hechingen, but he found it a bit boring, so he made contact with your great pal Benjamin Franklin. And in the summer of 1777, this bloke von Steuben sailed to America with his greyhound, who was called Azor, who went with him everywhere. His secretary, the excellently named Pierre Etienne Duponsault. And dupont was certainly 17 years old.

[Tom Holland]

Is he very good looking young lad?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Good looking young man. And his suspiciously handsome young aide, Louis de Ponthiere. Okay, so they land in Boston. They're wearing these very tight red uniforms and they've got loads of medals. And Steuben says to the Americans, I've come here to fight for you. I don't want pay, I just pay my expenses.

[Tom Holland]

So what's his beef with the British? Because, you know, Britain and Prussia were allies, same side. Yeah, sad.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He's just there for fun. He wants to hang out and have some, you know, with the lads in their tight uniforms. I think it's a big element of the appeal. So he arrives at Valley Forge and he makes a great impression straight away. He's an unusual looking man, he's very jowly, he's got a gigantic red nose and he speaks comically bad English. And one American private said later, the trappings of his horse, the enormous holsters of his pistols, his large size and his strikingly martial aspect made him a perfect personification of Mars, the ancient fabled God of war. Now, when Steuben arrives, remember he's a German. He is appalled by the litter and the filth of the camp. The dead horses.

[Tom Holland]

I mean, we've flagged that up, haven't we?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

We have already. So we too were appalled by it. He says he remembers the officers wearing, and I quote, a sort of dressing gown made of an old blanket or woolen bed cover. And most of all, the issue about the lack of proper toilet facilities. And he says to Washington, look, mate. And he says in his broken English, in Prussia. We would not stand for this. You are literally preparing the food, feet away from the bodies of rotting horses. Horses. You have your toilets next to the kitchens and next to people's cabins. Dig your latrines on the other side of the camp. Sort yourself out.

[Tom Holland]

If they are so short of food and they're reduced to eating kind of water and flour, why are they not eating the horses?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

I'm not an American, I don't know.

[Tom Holland]

God's sake. I mean, I. I just think I do a better job than Washington.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Absolute shambles from Washington.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So anyway, Washington is delighted this blokes turned up, basically because he's lost loads of officers. Some of his officers have gone home, they're sick of things. And of course, 2,000 of his men have died of disease. So this bloke who's a Palafred the Great, he's like manna from heaven. And Steuben says, I'll train your army for him. Washington gives him 120 men as guinea pigs and Steuben basically turns them into Prussians. What he does is he write outs the drill every day in French and he gets some of Washington's young officers to translate it into English for him. And do you know one of those officers who does it for him? Alexander Hamilton.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Of musical fame.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. Because he hangs out with Washington in the musical, doesn't he?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

He does, yeah. So Stroben drills them. He teaches them to march in formation. He teaches them to use a bayonets. They're not. They don't have me using their bayonets properly. He said afterwards, the American soldier had no faith in it and never used it but to roast his beefsteak. And the men love him. They think he's brilliant. They think he's very. He's very eccentric, he's funny. He's an absolutely textbook example of the hired football manager of a Premier League team who speaks only in a sort of mumbled English obscenities. F this, F that. He's basically Claudio Ranieri when he was the manager of Leicester.

[Tom Holland]

And he's going to pull off a similarly startling feat of promotion, isn't he?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yes, exactly. So Steuben's drills actually became the instruction manual for the US army until, like. Until for, like, decades. Still influencing American military strategy right up to the Civil War.

[Tom Holland]

So Custer might have experienced it.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. So the result of this is the Continental army will leave Valley Forge much more modern and professional unit than they came. And afterwards, Steuben was made an American citizen. He was given a big estate in New York, and he was made a member of the American family philosophical society alongside loads of other founding fathers. He clearly had a brilliant time because he became very close to two other handsome young men from Washington's army in their early twenties called Benjamin Walker and William North. He adopted them. He made them his heirs, which was actually very common for gay men to do in the late 18th century. This was a way for you to establish a kind of formal relationship. And when he died in 1794, he left them here, his estate.

[Tom Holland]

So it worked out well for him.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Worked out well for him and for them, actually. So that's one European contribution to the insurgent effort. But obviously, the Americans need more help than just this one Prussian. The war is now almost three years old, and although the British, you know, are not really anywhere near victory, it's not clear how the Americans will ever force the British out. They have pinned their hopes all this time on French intervention. But the French, although they've sent arms kind of surreptitiously, they haven't formally joined the war. And basically, the Americans are praying that the French will one day join the war to challenge Britain's command of the seas. The months have passed, and there's been no breakthrough. But then, in the dying days of April 1778, the news reaches the insurgent camp at Valley Forge. There has been a diplomatic battle bombshell, because at Versailles two months earlier, your mate, Benjamin Franklin, he has secured French recognition of the American republic and a military alliance. And a month later, war was formally declared between Britain and France. When the news reaches Valley Forge, Washington and his officers recognize this as a total game changer. Lafayette is said to have kissed Washington on the cheeks with joy, which Washington probably didn't really approve of. And a week later, after they got the news, Washington, his troops, they have a day of thanksgiving. They fire their guns in the air, they read copies of the treatise aloud, they all shout, long live the King of France. And I'm not a brilliant shout this. God save the friendly powers of Europe.

[Tom Holland]

That didn't become an anthem.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

No, that didn't become an anthem. And there's loads of drinking. Everyone said that actually, this time. This is the one time that Washington's lost his sort of imperturbable glacial exterior. He had a countenance of uncommon delight. And the most shocking thing is that at the end of the day, he agreed to throw aside his dignity and to play cricket with the junior officers.

[Tom Holland]

Well, that is the traditional American way of celebrating, isn't it?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly.

[Tom Holland]

He was very, very Good at throwing things because there are all these kind of mad stories of him throwing bricks over rivers and things. Right. So I think he'd be quite good

[Dominic Sandbrook]

at cricket as a bowler, as a fielder.

[Tom Holland]

Well, the bowling, wouldn't he? Because at this point, the ball was thrown. Rolled along the ground rather than.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, kind of.

[Tom Holland]

It wasn't kind of airborne, but, you know, you hit the ball, you have to throw it back in.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

So is this the ancestor of American enthusiasm for tempin bowling?

[Tom Holland]

I think it. Well, yeah, it's cool. Kind of part of it also. He had very big hands and that's very useful if you're a bowler in cricket.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Of course. Of course. So French entrance. The war has changed everything because from this point onwards, the odds really are against Britain. And from this point onwards, London thinks, okay, well, the North American colonists, so the North American colonies, what really matters is the Caribbean and the Sugar Islands. So within weeks of this, London sends a message to the new British commander in North America, Sir Henry Clinton. Send a third of your army to the Caribbean. When Clinton gets this message, he says, well, our position in Philadelphia is now untenable. We should evacuate east to New York City. On the 16th of June, Washington at Valley Forge gets word that the British. British in Philadelphia have asked for the return of their clothes from the local laundries, which is a sign that they are moving out, because obviously a British army would never take to the. To the. To the roads in unlaundered uniforms. That would be appalling. So a couple days after this, the first American brigades move out of Valley Forge and hot pursuit. By 22 June, the whole continental army has crossed the Delaware into New Jersey. And on 28 June, at a place called Monmouth Courthouse, New Jersey, Washington's men have their first military test since they've been at Valley Forge. So they have caught up with the British. The heat is overpowering. It's almost 40 degrees Celsius, so 100 degrees Fahrenheit, so hot that some soldiers actually drop dead from sunstroke. And the result of this battle, I mean, I say battle, it's basically another skirmish is a draw, really. There's about 350 casualties on either side. The British continued their evacuation to New York. But having lost so many battles, even a draw to Washington seems like a victory. And actually, afterwards, even the British commented. They said, gosh, you know, the Americans have changed their tune. They're pretty professional. And obviously this is the result of this top Prussian, this bloke von Steuben. So where does all this leave the war? They've got out of Valley Forge. They're back on the road again. You know, things are looking up. They've got the French on their side. The war's not over. But the balance has fundamentally shifted because 10 days after this battle, a French fleet sails into Delaware Bay with 10 ships of the line, four frigates, and 4,000 French soldiers. So from this point, the war is a global war. Britain will be on the defensive. And although American independence is not inevitable at this point in 1778, it is probably much more likely than not. Washington himself never gets the Hollywood ending that you might have thought he would have liked, because actually, Monmouth Courthouse is the last major battle in the northern theater.

[Tom Holland]

Do you think that's why he hasn't been the hero of a kind of classic Hollywood film?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And that's also maybe why the War of Independence.

[Tom Holland]

Actually.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

There aren't that many Hollywood films about it. There's the Patriot with Mel Gibson, but I can't actually think of any others. I mean, certainly none of those that are well known in. In Britain or in Europe. And part of that is because it ends in a very kind of desultory manner.

[Tom Holland]

Kind of splutters out, doesn't it?

[Dominic Sandbrook]

It splutters out. The British end up sort of trapping themselves at Yorktown. Washington is there. But even Ron Chernow in his biography, says this is really a victory for French siegecraft and French naval supremacy. And Washington is really a supporting actor, a Yorktown. And it's a sort of slightly confusing ending. The war then it normally goes on for another two years before the Treaties of Paris is signed. Anyway, back to Washington himself. Did Washington matter? I think the answer is undoubtedly yes. And actually, this is why the story of Valley Forge is so important, because at that moment in 1777, 1778, almost any other commander probably would have seen his army fall apart. They're hungry. They don't have supplies. The weather is terrible. You know, Congress is losing confidence in them. The men attempted to mutiny. It's easy to imagine the different colonial units turning on one another. And if the army had broken up, the Continental Army, I think it would have been pretty hard to rebuild it. I think the momentum would have been lost, even with French backing. I mean, probably the French would not have joined the war, you know, in February, and Valley Forge could have been, you know, the end of the war. There could have been some sort of compromise. Who knows? Now, instead, of course, it becomes one of the most mythologized moments of the entire campaign. And Washington because of his dignity, because of his leadership, because of his glacial self control. All of which are a bit performative, but of course that's not to criticize them. It's precisely because they're so public that they're so powerful. Washington has set the tone. You know, he's played the Roman commander, he has played his hero, Cato, and it has absolutely worked. He does the same trick again in December 1783. So that's when the treaty was signed. He famously walks into the Confederation Congress and he resigns his command and he returns to private life. Back to his plow, back to his plough. Well, again, he's self consciously playing a Roman. He's playing Cincinnatus, isn't he? And people loved it. And George III said, oh, if he did that, he must be the greatest man in the world. You know, because people love the Romans at this point in the late 18th century. They're obsessed by this idea of honor

[Tom Holland]

and duty and stuff and republican virtue. That this is what you do in a republic is that you don't monopolize monarchical power, even if you're given it briefly.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Exactly. So.

[Tom Holland]

And so this is, will be important for his role as the first president that he ends up laying down his power.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

This is why they choose him. They don't just choose him as president in 1789 because he was the victorious commander in chief. They choose him I think because he's the only one of the Founding Fathers who has the dignity and, and the self control and the kind of paternalistic vibe that allows him to transcend all the factional and regional differences. The other Founding Fathers may be more interesting, more spiky, more distinctive in their different ways, but that means that they are, they have enemies, they have people who don't like them. Everybody likes and respects Washington.

[Tom Holland]

But you said that he's, he's got a very memorial quality, that he's like a statue hewn out of marble. And that is an enormous advantage if you have an unstable republic. And you need a kind. I'm literally a heavyweight. Someone who's hewn out of marble.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yes.

[Tom Holland]

Who will provide the kind of dignity that you need in a head of state in the early years of your infant republic, but who will also serve as a kind of monument to that republic after his death. And they must all be kind of thinking of this.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah, I think exactly right. So we, we've got a bonus episode coming up for our rest is History Club members where I talk to Ken Burns, the documentary filmmaker, and he's made this massive series, a billion episodes about the American Revolution. And he says in this, Washington is the kind of indispensable. He's the one indispensable man without which it could not have succeeded. A rare example of a great man of history who lives up to his reputation. However, just in case people are thinking they've gone mad, they've gone native, they're sucking up to the colonials, I should stress this, even American heroes have feet of clay. Or in Washington's case, teeth of clay. Tom, because by the time the war ends, George Washington's teeth, which should end with this crucial point, are in an absolutely shocking state. By 1781, he was wearing dentures that were held together with his crude wire mesh in 1784. So a year after the war ended, he bought nine teeth from unknown African Americans. And these teeth were then transplanted into his gums. And by the time he became president in 1789, for all the George III said he was the greatest man in the world. He had just one working tooth left, left. Which is why, as president, I think he went on to save almost nothing memorable or interesting whatsoever. And, Tom, that, I think, is why, since the dawn of their republic, 250 years ago, Americans, terrible teeth, yeah, have been the cause of so much innocent amusement all over the world. And nowhere more so, of course, than in our own beloved country in Britain. And so the ultimate lesson of this story is that if you want to have proper teeth, teeth like the British, British teeth, then you should pay your taxes.

[Tom Holland]

Thank you, Dominic. And we have more to come. So Benjamin Franklin is next, the great scientist and diplomat in France. Then we have Alexander Hamilton and his duel with Aaron Burr, and then Thomas Jefferson. We also have an amazing couple of American Revolution bonuses. So, as Dominic mentioned, the world's greatest historical documentary maker, the legendary Ken Burns. And then we will be talking to very much friend of the show, Conan o', Brien, for his views on the Founding Fathers. And on top of that, of course, there's a massive array of supplementary benefits, including our brilliant newsletter. So to get all this thereestishistory.com, you know what to do, sign up there.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

And one other thing we should mention, actually. So we are doing our restless history festival at Hampton Court this weekend. It's got tons of exciting events. The Saturday, I'm sorry to say, is sold out. That's disappointing for people who wants to get tickets. But the good news is that there are still one or two tickets available. I think for Sunday, there'll be all kinds of treats, but among them will be the appearance of Friends of the Show. Helen Caster, William Dalrymple, Adam Smith, Katya Hoya. I'm very excited. Ian Hislop, the editor of Private Eye magazine. And if you'd like to get a ticket, go to therestishistory.com we will be

[Tom Holland]

back in our next episode with Benjamin Franklin. But for now thank you Dominic thank you everyone for listening.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Bye bye bye bye. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome?

[Tom Holland]

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